A new Elgar "Enigma" solution?

[Matthew B. Tepper]

I've written here before about two of the theories I've seen which suggest
solutions for the question of, well, just what was the "hidden theme" of
Elgar's "Enigma" Variations. I'm still quite fond of Theodore van Houten's
suggestion that it is "Rule, Brittania." I've remarked many times here on
a strange little book I picked up years ago in an antiquarian shop, "Mute
Music" by Roberto Schmitz, in which the author jumps through a great many
hoops in claiming that there are many coded remarks leading to his
conclusion that Elgar thought his friends were really a bunch of sods. And
the entry for the Variations in Wikipedia presents some other alternatives.

I've just been apprised of another one:

http://enigmathemeunmasked.blogspot.com/p/elgars-enigmas-exposed.html

Briefly, Robert Wayne Padgett thinks it is "Ein feste Burg ist unser
Gott." I don't want to dismiss this out of hand, and I will require more
time to study it than I have during my lunch break today (especially with
all of the interruptions!), but it raises my eyebrows to think that a
devout Catholic such as Elgar would focus so on a hymn tune which was a
pillar of the Reformation. Still, I imagine it's possible.

I just thought I'd pass this along here, and maybe start a fresh thread on
the Variations themselves, and recordings. The "standard" recommendations
include Monteux and the composer; which ones do YOU like?

[Ördög]

I've written here before about two of the theories....[snip]

Then why write them again?

suggestion that it is "Rule, Brittania."

I don't think so; but 'Rule, Britannia' is a [doubtful] possibility.

a strange little book I picked up years ago in an antiquarian shop, "Mute
Music" by Roberto Schmitz, in which the author jumps through a great many
hoops in claiming that there are many coded remarks leading to his
conclusion that Elgar thought his friends were really a bunch of sods.  And
the entry for the Variations in Wikipedia presents some other alternatives.
http://enigmathemeunmasked.blogspot.com/p/elgars-enigmas-exposed.html
Briefly, Robert Wayne Padgett thinks it is "Ein feste Burg ist unser
Gott."  I don't want to dismiss this out of hand, and I will require more
time to study it than I have during my lunch break today

Your whole day is one big lunch break.

.......... it raises my eyebrows to think that a
devout Catholic such as Elgar would focus so on a hymn tune which was a
pillar of the Reformation.  Still, I imagine it's possible.

Of course it is possible! Elgar was not as narrow-minded as you.

I just thought I'd pass this along here, and maybe start a fresh thread on
the Variations themselves, and recordings.  The "standard" recommendations
include Monteux and the composer; which ones do YOU like?

Neither. I prefer Sir Adrian Boult. Zubin Mehta is also very good,
imo.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Ördög

I've written here before about two of the theories....[snip]

Then why write them again?

suggestion that it is "Rule, Brittania."

I don't think so; but 'Rule, Britannia' is a [doubtful] possibility.

One of the arguments in favor of "'Rule, Britannia" is that Elgar supposedly
said to the woman whose nickname is "Penny" that he would expected her, of
all people, to have gotten it.

[Ördög]

On Nov 11, 11:13 pm, "William Sommerwerck"

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Ördög

I've written here before about two of the theories....[snip]

Then why write them again?

suggestion that it is "Rule, Brittania."

I don't think so; but 'Rule, Britannia' is a [doubtful] possibility.

One of the arguments in favor of "'Rule, Britannia" is that Elgar supposedly
said to the woman whose nickname is "Penny" that he would expected her, of
all people, to have gotten it.

Perhaps; but "Penny" is not a nickname. Her name was Dora Penny and
Elgar portrays her as 'Dorabella'. This might suggest that the hidden
tune, the 'Enigma', is based upon Mozart's 'Cosi fan Tutte'. Maybe
Dora was familiar with it; I really don't know. On the other hand,
Elgar was very fond of jokes and it is possible that this "hidden
tune" is another joke. I don't think we shall ever know the truth,
unless some real evidence is found. Theories are very good fun but
quite pointless in this case.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by William Sommerwerck
One of the arguments in favor of "'Rule, Britannia" is that Elgar
supposedly said to the woman whose nickname is "Penny" that he would
expected her, of all people, to have gotten it.

And that the theme "never" appears. The supposedly-quoted passage occurs on
the words "never, never, never."

[Ördög]

Post by William Sommerwerck
One of the arguments in favor of "'Rule, Britannia" is that Elgar
supposedly said to the woman whose nickname is "Penny" that he would
expected her, of all people, to have gotten it.

And that the theme "never" appears.  The supposedly-quoted passage occurs on
the words "never, never, never."

There isn't a quoted passage, not even "supposedly-quoted". Elgar
stated that there was another theme that would "go with" the original
theme from the Enigma Variations. Not the same thing at all - and no
one can be certain that Elgar was serious in the first place. Perhaps
the purpose of the title, 'Enigma', was one of Elgar's jokes. If so,
it has worked very well because you are running around like a headless
chicken looking for an answer when there probably has never been a
question. *That*, I think, *is* the Enigma.

I don't know why I waste my time writing this. You have killfiled me
and [probably] can't read it.

[pianomaven]

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck
One of the arguments in favor of "'Rule, Britannia" is that Elgar
supposedly said to the woman whose nickname is "Penny" that he would
expected her, of all people, to have gotten it.

And that the theme "never" appears.  The supposedly-quoted passage occurs on
the words "never, never, never."

There isn't a quoted passage, not even "supposedly-quoted". Elgar
stated that there was another theme that would "go with" the original
theme from the Enigma Variations. Not the same thing at all - and no
one can be certain that Elgar was serious in the first place. Perhaps
the purpose of the title, 'Enigma', was one of Elgar's jokes. If so,
it has worked very well because you are running around like a headless
chicken looking for an answer when there probably has never been a
question. *That*, I think, *is* the Enigma.
I don't know why I waste my time writing this. You have killfiled me
and [probably] can't read it.

Besides, Tepper is as thick as a construction boot sole and dumb,
dumb, dumb.

So uncharacteristic, don't you think?

TD

[Ördög]

Post by pianomaven

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck
One of the arguments in favor of "'Rule, Britannia" is that Elgar
supposedly said to the woman whose nickname is "Penny" that he would
expected her, of all people, to have gotten it.

And that the theme "never" appears.  The supposedly-quoted passage occurs on
the words "never, never, never."

There isn't a quoted passage, not even "supposedly-quoted". Elgar
stated that there was another theme that would "go with" the original
theme from the Enigma Variations. Not the same thing at all - and no
one can be certain that Elgar was serious in the first place. Perhaps
the purpose of the title, 'Enigma', was one of Elgar's jokes. If so,
it has worked very well because you are running around like a headless
chicken looking for an answer when there probably has never been a
question. *That*, I think, *is* the Enigma.
I don't know why I waste my time writing this. You have killfiled me
and [probably] can't read it.

Besides, Tepper is as thick as a construction boot sole and dumb,
dumb, dumb.

LOL! And how very true!

Post by pianomaven
So uncharacteristic, don't you think?
TD

Oh, very uncharacteristic. Not the friendly, tolerant Tepper at all.

[Paul Vandermaessen]

Post by Ördög

the following letters to be typed

Post by William Sommerwerck
One of the arguments in favor of "'Rule, Britannia" is that Elgar
supposedly said to the woman whose nickname is "Penny" that he
would expected her, of all people, to have gotten it.

And that the theme "never" appears. The supposedly-quoted passage
occurs on
the words "never, never, never."

There isn't a quoted passage, not even "supposedly-quoted". Elgar
stated that there was another theme that would "go with" the original
theme from the Enigma Variations. Not the same thing at all - and no
one can be certain that Elgar was serious in the first place. Perhaps
the purpose of the title, 'Enigma', was one of Elgar's jokes. If so,
it has worked very well because you are running around like a headless
chicken looking for an answer when there probably has never been a
question. *That*, I think, *is* the Enigma.
I don't know why I waste my time writing this. You have killfiled me
and [probably] can't read it.

There is also a possibility that he is not interested in other opinions, except
from some people he likes.
Imagine the scenario that everything about this Enigma gets solved here while he
has no possibility to read it, by his own choice.

[Ördög]

Post by Paul Vandermaessen

Post by Ördög

the following letters to be typed

Post by William Sommerwerck
One of the arguments in favor of "'Rule, Britannia" is that Elgar
supposedly said to the woman whose nickname is "Penny" that he
would expected her, of all people, to have gotten it.

And that the theme "never" appears. The supposedly-quoted passage
occurs on
the words "never, never, never."

There isn't a quoted passage, not even "supposedly-quoted". Elgar
stated that there was another theme that would "go with" the original
theme from the Enigma Variations. Not the same thing at all - and no
one can be certain that Elgar was serious in the first place. Perhaps
the purpose of the title, 'Enigma', was one of Elgar's jokes. If so,
it has worked very well because you are running around like a headless
chicken looking for an answer when there probably has never been a
question. *That*, I think, *is* the Enigma.
I don't know why I waste my time writing this. You have killfiled me
and [probably] can't read it.

There is also a possibility that he is not interested in other opinions, except
from some people he likes.
Imagine the scenario that everything about this Enigma gets solved here while he
has no possibility to read it, by his own choice.
- Show quoted text -

I think you are right. Perhaps he likes to surround himself with "yes
men"; but I don't think the Enigma will ever be solved - unless Elgar
kept a secret diary and no one has found it yet.

I made a slight mistake, because the only quoted passage is in
variation VIII (***) and it is from 'Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage'
by Mendelssohn.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

PLONK

Döggy-Döö has learned how to make sock puppets.

[Ördög]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
PLONK
Döggy-Döö has learned how to make sock puppets.

You have plonked yourself - again! Congratulations!

I thought the sockpuppets belonged to you. I can speak for myself and
I don't need any.

And, by the way, 'Ördög' means 'The Devil' - nothing to do with dogs
at all - unless the devil *is* a dog;)

[William Sommerwerck]

'Ördög' means 'The Devil' -- nothing to do
with dogs -- unless the devil *is* a dog. ;)

Well, dog is God spelled backwards. And then there's the Hostess product...

Any relation to Chernabog? (The "Fantasia" Blu-ray will be out on 11/23.)

[Ördög]

Post by William Sommerwerck

' rd g' means 'The Devil' -- nothing to do
with dogs -- unless the devil *is* a dog. ;)

Well, dog is God spelled backwards. And then there's the Hostess product...

So it is! I am not quite sure about the Hostess product.

Post by William Sommerwerck
Any relation to Chernabog? (The "Fantasia" Blu-ray will be out on 11/23.)

Not as far as I know but I very much doubt it! ( I don't really like
'Fantasia' and I don't yet own a Blu-ray player)


PS. I have no sockpuppets and I don't need any.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck
Well, dog is God spelled backwards. And then
there's the Hostess product...

So it is! I am not quite sure about the Hostess product.

It's a "creme-filled" Devil's Food cake product, made of a pseudo food-like
substance.

http://www.google.com/images?q=hostess+devil+dogs&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=5pvdTPGQCoGCsQP9pvniCg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQsAQwAQ&biw=1280&bih=803

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck
Any relation to Chernabog? (The "Fantasia" Blu-ray will be
out on 11/23.)

Not as far as I know but I very much doubt it! ( I don't really like
"Fantasia" and I don't yet own a Blu-ray player.)

"Fantasia" was the principal reason I became interested in classical music.
You don't like even /one/ segment?

As for Blu-ray... The worst Blu-rays are merely terrific. The best will have
you rolling on the floor in aesthetic rapture.

[Ördög]

Post by William Sommerwerck
"Fantasia" was the principal reason I became interested in classical music.
You don't like even /one/ segment?

I have only seen one or two segments - in French Indo-China (as it was
then), and it was subtitled in Vietnamese! (Not the music though!)

Post by William Sommerwerck
As for Blu-ray... The worst Blu-rays are merely terrific. The best will have
you rolling on the floor in aesthetic rapture.

The best will have to wait until I can afford it.

[D***@aol.com]

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck
"Fantasia" was the principal reason I became interested in classical music.
You don't like even /one/ segment?

I have only seen one or two segments - in French Indo-China (as it was
then), and it was subtitled in Vietnamese! (Not the music though!)

Post by William Sommerwerck
As for Blu-ray... The worst Blu-rays are merely terrific. The best will have
you rolling on the floor in aesthetic rapture.

The best will have to wait until I can afford it.

Whom do you think you are kidding, Scandinavian maiden? You were in
French Indo-China before the French left in 1955? That's fifty-five
years ago. Are you now 70 or so? And the Vietnamese under French
colonial control before 1955 had television video machines? Such
machines weren't available anywhere for years *after* then.

Explain yourself. Or are you like Alan M.Watkins?

Don Tait

[Ördög]

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck
"Fantasia" was the principal reason I became interested in classical music.
You don't like even /one/ segment?

I have only seen one or two segments - in French Indo-China (as it was
then), and it was subtitled in Vietnamese! (Not the music though!)

Post by William Sommerwerck
As for Blu-ray... The worst Blu-rays are merely terrific. The best will have
you rolling on the floor in aesthetic rapture.

The best will have to wait until I can afford it.

  Whom do you think you are kidding, Scandinavian maiden? You were in
French Indo-China before the French left in 1955? That's fifty-five
years ago. Are you now 70 or so? And the Vietnamese under French
colonial control before 1955 had television video machines? Such
machines weren't available anywhere for years *after* then.
  Explain yourself. Or are you like Alan M.Watkins?
  Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Ok.

1. I am not Alan M. Watkins, or anyone like him.
2. I am Hungarian, not Scandinavian, nor am I a "maiden".
3. I am 77. I served with the 2nd Parachute Battalion French Foreign
Legion between the years 1950 - 1955.
4. The Vietnamese had cinemas - even then!

I don't see why I should have to explain myself to you, or anyone
else. So, as the saying goes: You can like it or lump it. Either way,
I don't give a fuck. Ok?

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Ördög
2. I am Hungarian, not Scandinavian, nor am I a "maiden".

That was the conclusion to which I had originally jumped. We had one such
troll in recent months, and your umlauts reminded me of her. As far as I am
concerned, you have more than adequately explained your Hungarian (not
Swedish) nickname.

[O]

In article

Post by Ördög

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck
"Fantasia" was the principal reason I became interested in classical music.
You don't like even /one/ segment?

I have only seen one or two segments - in French Indo-China (as it was
then), and it was subtitled in Vietnamese! (Not the music though!)

Post by William Sommerwerck
As for Blu-ray... The worst Blu-rays are merely terrific. The best will have
you rolling on the floor in aesthetic rapture.

The best will have to wait until I can afford it.

  Whom do you think you are kidding, Scandinavian maiden? You were in
French Indo-China before the French left in 1955? That's fifty-five
years ago. Are you now 70 or so? And the Vietnamese under French
colonial control before 1955 had television video machines? Such
machines weren't available anywhere for years *after* then.
  Explain yourself. Or are you like Alan M.Watkins?
  Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Ok.
1. I am not Alan M. Watkins, or anyone like him.
2. I am Hungarian, not Scandinavian, nor am I a "maiden".
3. I am 77. I served with the 2nd Parachute Battalion French Foreign
Legion between the years 1950 - 1955.

Did you join the foreign legion "to forget?" :-)

Post by Ördög
4. The Vietnamese had cinemas - even then!
I don't see why I should have to explain myself to you, or anyone
else. So, as the saying goes: You can like it or lump it. Either way,
I don't give a fuck. Ok?

I think Don has thought you were the same poster as someone who alleged
they were a young girl from Scandanavian. I don't believe you've done
so.

-Owen

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by Ördög

On Nov 12, 7:59 pm, "William Sommerwerck"

Post by William Sommerwerck
"Fantasia" was the principal reason I became interested in
classical music. You don't like even /one/ segment?

I have only seen one or two segments - in French Indo-China (as it
was then), and it was subtitled in Vietnamese! (Not the music
though!)

Post by William Sommerwerck
As for Blu-ray... The worst Blu-rays are merely terrific. The
best will have you rolling on the floor in aesthetic rapture.

The best will have to wait until I can afford it.

  Whom do you think you are kidding, Scandinavian maiden? You were in
French Indo-China before the French left in 1955? That's fifty-five
years ago. Are you now 70 or so? And the Vietnamese under French
colonial control before 1955 had television video machines? Such
machines weren't available anywhere for years *after* then.
  Explain yourself. Or are you like Alan M.Watkins?
  Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Ok.
1. I am not Alan M. Watkins, or anyone like him.
2. I am Hungarian, not Scandinavian, nor am I a "maiden".
3. I am 77. I served with the 2nd Parachute Battalion French Foreign
Legion between the years 1950 - 1955.

Did you join the foreign legion "to forget?" :-)

Post by Ördög
4. The Vietnamese had cinemas - even then!
I don't see why I should have to explain myself to you, or anyone
else. So, as the saying goes: You can like it or lump it. Either way,
I don't give a fuck. Ok?

I think Don has thought you were the same poster as someone who alleged
they were a young girl from Scandanavian. I don't believe you've done
so.

Again, it was my error in assuming so. I was blinded by the umlauts.

[Ördög]

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by Ördög

Post by D***@aol.com

On Nov 12, 7:59 pm, "William Sommerwerck"

Post by William Sommerwerck
"Fantasia" was the principal reason I became interested in
classical music.  You don't like even /one/ segment?

I have only seen one or two segments - in French Indo-China (as it
was then), and it was subtitled in Vietnamese! (Not the music
though!)

Post by William Sommerwerck
As for Blu-ray... The worst Blu-rays are merely terrific. The
best will have you rolling on the floor in aesthetic rapture.

The best will have to wait until I can afford it.

Whom do you think you are kidding, Scandinavian maiden? You were in
French Indo-China before the French left in 1955? That's fifty-five
years ago. Are you now 70 or so? And the Vietnamese under French
colonial control before 1955 had television video machines? Such
machines weren't available anywhere for years *after* then.
Explain yourself. Or are you like Alan M.Watkins?
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Ok.
1. I am not Alan M. Watkins, or anyone like him.
2. I am Hungarian, not Scandinavian, nor am I a "maiden".
3. I am 77. I served with the 2nd Parachute Battalion French Foreign
Legion between the years 1950 - 1955.

Did you join the foreign legion "to  forget?"  :-)

Post by Ördög
4. The Vietnamese had cinemas - even then!
I don't see why I should have to explain myself to you, or anyone
else. So, as the saying goes: You can like it or lump it. Either way,
I don't give a fuck. Ok?

I think Don has thought you were the same poster as someone who alleged
they were a young girl from Scandanavian.  I don't believe you've done
so.

Again, it was my error in assuming so.  I was blinded by the umlauts.

Don't worry about it. I see dots before my eyes after I drink too
much.

[Gerard]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by Ördög

Post by D***@aol.com

On Nov 12, 7:59 pm, "William Sommerwerck"

Post by William Sommerwerck
"Fantasia" was the principal reason I became interested in
classical music. You don't like even /one/ segment?

I have only seen one or two segments - in French Indo-China
(as it was then), and it was subtitled in Vietnamese! (Not
the music though!)

Post by William Sommerwerck
As for Blu-ray... The worst Blu-rays are merely terrific.
The best will have you rolling on the floor in aesthetic
rapture.

The best will have to wait until I can afford it.

Whom do you think you are kidding, Scandinavian maiden? You
were in French Indo-China before the French left in 1955?
That's fifty-five years ago. Are you now 70 or so? And the
Vietnamese under French colonial control before 1955 had
television video machines? Such machines weren't available
anywhere for years *after* then.
Explain yourself. Or are you like Alan M.Watkins?
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Ok.
1. I am not Alan M. Watkins, or anyone like him.
2. I am Hungarian, not Scandinavian, nor am I a "maiden".
3. I am 77. I served with the 2nd Parachute Battalion French
Foreign Legion between the years 1950 - 1955.

Did you join the foreign legion "to forget?" :-)

Post by Ördög
4. The Vietnamese had cinemas - even then!
I don't see why I should have to explain myself to you, or anyone
else. So, as the saying goes: You can like it or lump it. Either
way, I don't give a fuck. Ok?

I think Don has thought you were the same poster as someone who
alleged they were a young girl from Scandanavian. I don't believe
you've done so.

Again, it was my error in assuming so. I was blinded by the umlauts.

Doesn't matter. Many got used to your usual paranoia.

[Ördög]

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by Ördög
Ok.
1. I am not Alan M. Watkins, or anyone like him.
2. I am Hungarian, not Scandinavian, nor am I a "maiden".
3. I am 77. I served with the 2nd Parachute Battalion French Foreign
Legion between the years 1950 - 1955.

Did you join the foreign legion "to  forget?"  :-)

I can't remember:)

Post by Paul Penna

Post by Ördög
4. The Vietnamese had cinemas - even then!
I don't see why I should have to explain myself to you, or anyone
else. So, as the saying goes: You can like it or lump it. Either way,
I don't give a fuck. Ok?

I think Don has thought you were the same poster as someone who alleged
they were a young girl from Scandanavian.  I don't believe you've done
so.

Most Swedish maidens are extremely attractive, but I am not one of
them. I am not very attractive anyway:(

[pianomaven]

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by Ördög

Post by D***@aol.com

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck
"Fantasia" was the principal reason I became interested in classical music.
You don't like even /one/ segment?

I have only seen one or two segments - in French Indo-China (as it was
then), and it was subtitled in Vietnamese! (Not the music though!)

Post by William Sommerwerck
As for Blu-ray... The worst Blu-rays are merely terrific. The best will
have
you rolling on the floor in aesthetic rapture.

The best will have to wait until I can afford it.

Whom do you think you are kidding, Scandinavian maiden? You were in
French Indo-China before the French left in 1955? That's fifty-five
years ago. Are you now 70 or so? And the Vietnamese under French
colonial control before 1955 had television video machines? Such
machines weren't available anywhere for years *after* then.
Explain yourself. Or are you like Alan M.Watkins?
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Ok.
1. I am not Alan M. Watkins, or anyone like him.
2. I am Hungarian, not Scandinavian, nor am I a "maiden".
3. I am 77. I served with the 2nd Parachute Battalion French Foreign
Legion between the years 1950 - 1955.

Did you join the foreign legion "to  forget?"  :-)

Post by Ördög
4. The Vietnamese had cinemas - even then!
I don't see why I should have to explain myself to you, or anyone
else. So, as the saying goes: You can like it or lump it. Either way,
I don't give a fuck. Ok?

I think Don has thought you were the same poster as someone who alleged
they were a young girl from Scandanavian.  I don't believe you've done
so.

What did you say?

But I thought YOU were that young girl from Scandinavia.

Everything I have read from you would lead one to that conclusion.

TD

[O]

In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by Paul Penna

Post by Ördög
1. I am not Alan M. Watkins, or anyone like him.
2. I am Hungarian, not Scandinavian, nor am I a "maiden".
3. I am 77. I served with the 2nd Parachute Battalion French Foreign
Legion between the years 1950 - 1955.

Did you join the foreign legion "to  forget?"  :-)

Post by Ördög
4. The Vietnamese had cinemas - even then!
I don't see why I should have to explain myself to you, or anyone
else. So, as the saying goes: You can like it or lump it. Either way,
I don't give a fuck. Ok?

I think Don has thought you were the same poster as someone who alleged
they were a young girl from Scandanavian.  I don't believe you've done
so.

What did you say?
But I thought YOU were that young girl from Scandinavia.
Everything I have read from you would lead one to that conclusion.

I bet you say that to all the girls!

-Owen

[Alan Dawes]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck
Any relation to Chernabog? (The "Fantasia" Blu-ray will be
out on 11/23.)

Not as far as I know but I very much doubt it! ( I don't really like
"Fantasia" and I don't yet own a Blu-ray player.)

"Fantasia" was the principal reason I became interested in classical
music. You don't like even /one/ segment?

The Blu-ray came out in the UK a couple of days ago. I have it on as I'm
writing this. The restoration of the video is excellent but you have to
make allowances for the sound - I read somewhere that the original optical
sound masters were "lost" after a remix to mono done in the early 50s and
now they have just copies of copies to work from. However I find that my
ears have quickly adjusted. One major downside of this Blu-ray is the very
long time it takes to actually get to the film, even sidestepping the
trailers, it keeps loading JAVA applications which have very little
function - from inserting the Blu-ray and the start of the film it has
taken 3min 45s. I've just timed it on my other newer player and it still
takes nearly 3 minutes if you make the wrong choice and need to go back to
the setup menu it takes another minute.

Alan

Post by William Sommerwerck
As for Blu-ray... The worst Blu-rays are merely terrific. The best will
have you rolling on the floor in aesthetic rapture.

I am a fan but cann't say I've ever rolled on the floor in aesthetic
rapture :-)

Alan

[Paul Penna]

Post by Alan Dawes
The Blu-ray came out in the UK a couple of days ago. I have it on as I'm
writing this. The restoration of the video is excellent but you have to
make allowances for the sound - I read somewhere that the original optical
sound masters were "lost" after a remix to mono done in the early 50s and
now they have just copies of copies to work from.

No, actually a three-track tape dubbing was made from a surviving
Fantasound print in 1955, and that's what all current multi-channel
Fantasia tracks ultimately derive from. See this article from the
Newsletter of the Association of Motion Picture Sound, second paragraph
in the section "Fantasia is Released," with restoration info in
following sections.

http://www.amps.net/newsletters/issue16/16_fant.htm

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Paul Penna

Post by Alan Dawes
The Blu-ray came out in the UK a couple of days ago.
I have it on as I'm writing this. The restoration of the
video is excellent but you have to make allowances for
the sound - I read somewhere that the original optical
sound masters were "lost" after a remix to mono done
in the early 50s and now they have just copies of copies
to work from.

No, actually a three-track tape dubbing was made from
a surviving Fantasound print in 1955, and that's what all
current multi-channel Fantasia tracks ultimately derive from.
See this article from the Newsletter of the Association of
Motion Picture Sound, second paragraph in the section
"Fantasia is Released," with restoration info in following
sections.

Confusion. It is commonly believed that the nitrate stems disintegrated
beyond the point they could be restored.

"By this time [1953] the original nitrate sound negatives had deteriorated
and were unusable but a Fantasound quad print had been preserved and was in
fairly good condition."

Post by Paul Penna
http://www.amps.net/newsletters/issue16/16_fant.htm

It's unfortunate that the original multi-channel recordings have been lost.
They exist for other films.

On a related note... It will be interesting to see if the problems with
improper agitation during development have been fixed.

[Alan Dawes]

Post by Paul Penna

Post by Alan Dawes
The Blu-ray came out in the UK a couple of days ago. I have it on as
I'm writing this. The restoration of the video is excellent but you
have to make allowances for the sound - I read somewhere that the
original optical sound masters were "lost" after a remix to mono done
in the early 50s and now they have just copies of copies to work from.

No, actually a three-track tape dubbing was made from a surviving
Fantasound print in 1955, and that's what all current multi-channel
Fantasia tracks ultimately derive from. See this article from the
Newsletter of the Association of Motion Picture Sound, second paragraph
in the section "Fantasia is Released," with restoration info in
following sections.
http://www.amps.net/newsletters/issue16/16_fant.htm

Thanks for the correction - what an interesting article. So am I right in
thinking that the original 8 to 10 mono tracks mention in the re-recording
section of the previous article
http://www.amps.net/newsletters/issue15/15_fanta.htm
which were originally recorded were lost and that only a 3 track mix from
these recorded down phone lines onto magnetic tape in 1955, with all the
noise associated with that, is all that is left to make the restoration
from? If so they have done a pretty good job.

It would have been interesting to have the music that was re-recorded in
1984 included as an option. (Rather like the option in the latest releases
of the battle of Britain to choose either the Ron Goodwin or William
Walton scores)

Alan

[Paul Penna]

Post by Alan Dawes

Post by Paul Penna

Post by Alan Dawes
The Blu-ray came out in the UK a couple of days ago. I have it on as
I'm writing this. The restoration of the video is excellent but you
have to make allowances for the sound - I read somewhere that the
original optical sound masters were "lost" after a remix to mono done
in the early 50s and now they have just copies of copies to work from.

No, actually a three-track tape dubbing was made from a surviving
Fantasound print in 1955, and that's what all current multi-channel
Fantasia tracks ultimately derive from. See this article from the
Newsletter of the Association of Motion Picture Sound, second paragraph
in the section "Fantasia is Released," with restoration info in
following sections.
http://www.amps.net/newsletters/issue16/16_fant.htm

Thanks for the correction - what an interesting article. So am I right in
thinking that the original 8 to 10 mono tracks mention in the re-recording
section of the previous article
http://www.amps.net/newsletters/issue15/15_fanta.htm
which were originally recorded were lost and that only a 3 track mix from
these recorded down phone lines onto magnetic tape in 1955, with all the
noise associated with that, is all that is left to make the restoration
from? If so they have done a pretty good job.

Six tracks were used to record various sections of the orchestra,
another was a mix of those, plus a seventh to capture the full orchestra
plus ambiance. It was never the intention for all those tracks to be
used in the final soundtrack; that consisted of a mixdown to three audio
tracks plus a control track to direct the sound to various speakers
throughout the auditorium in accordance with the sound design that
matched the action on the screen. This "quad" track was printed to a
separate film strip that ran in sync with the projection print. One of
those quad prints was what was recorded to tape in 1955.

"Phone lines" is a bit misleading, as they weren't the standard voice
lines used for regular phone service, but those of a higher-quality
wide-band network.

More info is available at wikipedia, particularly under "Realization"
and "Restoration":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasound

and highly-technical period articles on the original system are here:

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/sound/fantasound1.htm

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/sound/fantasound3.htm

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Ördög <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:d5afbc41-f037-4ee0-95b9-

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck

' rd g' means 'The Devil' -- nothing to do
with dogs -- unless the devil *is* a dog. ;)

Well, dog is God spelled backwards. And then there's the Hostess product...

So it is! I am not quite sure about the Hostess product.

Post by William Sommerwerck
Any relation to Chernabog? (The "Fantasia" Blu-ray will be out on 11/23.)

Not as far as I know but I very much doubt it! ( I don't really like
'Fantasia' and I don't yet own a Blu-ray player)
PS. I have no sockpuppets and I don't need any.

As we have agreed to a truce via private email, I'll drop the matter. Sock
puppets and impersonators have been a problem here in the past.

So ... have you any favorites for "Enigma" recordings?

[Ördög]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:d5afbc41-f037-4ee0-95b9-

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck

' rd g' means 'The Devil' -- nothing to do
with dogs -- unless the devil *is* a dog. ;)

Well, dog is God spelled backwards. And then there's the Hostess product...

So it is! I am not quite sure about the Hostess product.

Post by William Sommerwerck
Any relation to Chernabog? (The "Fantasia" Blu-ray will be out on 11/23.)

Not as far as I know but I very much doubt it! ( I don't really like
'Fantasia' and I don't yet own a Blu-ray player)
PS. I have no sockpuppets and I don't need any.

As we have agreed to a truce via private email, I'll drop the matter.  Sock
puppets and impersonators have been a problem here in the past.
So ... have you any favorites for "Enigma" recordings?

Difficult question! I have 6 or 7 recordings and coming up with a
favourite is almost impossible. For the time being, and in no
particular order: Rattle/CBSO/EMI. Mackerras/LPO/EMI, and Mehta/LAPO/
Decca ( and underrated recording, I think). Top of the list - Sir
Adrian Boult, but I might change my mind at sometime or other.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Ördög <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:973f0859-7b22-43fc-bfb3-d2e102f21006

Post by Ördög

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
So ... have you any favorites for "Enigma" recordings?

Difficult question! I have 6 or 7 recordings and coming up with a
favourite is almost impossible. For the time being, and in no particular
order: Rattle/CBSO/EMI. Mackerras/LPO/EMI, and Mehta/LAPO/Decca (and
underrated recording, I think). Top of the list - Sir Adrian Boult, but I
might change my mind at sometime or other.

I tend to like Sir Adrian in British music in general, and particularly Elgar
and Vaughan Williams, and this one is coupled with one of his Planetses, but
it lacks just the tiniest bit of "oomph" for me. I should listen to it again
and follow with the score, perhaps.

I agree about Mehta, which is a sleeper. I even remember when the LP was
issued -- the coupling was Ives' Symphony #1 (with cuts, unfortunately), and
the cover showed a couple holding hands while waling in the park, she with an
Old Glory jacket, he with a Union Jack (or was it the other way around?).
Anyway, that was the US issue on the London label, which had to be used here
since the Decca name was owned by MCA here. The Decca cover had a landscape.
The Elgar is contained in Decca's "A Seventieth Birthday Tribute" to Mehta,
and the Ives joined the other symphonies, with other conductors, in a twofer.

Another sleeper for me is Stokowski/Czech Philharmonic, believe it or not.

I haven't heard Rattle, nor the late Mackerras. Thanks for the suggestions.

[pianomaven]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:d5afbc41-f037-4ee0-95b9-

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck

' rd g' means 'The Devil' -- nothing to do
with dogs -- unless the devil *is* a dog. ;)

Well, dog is God spelled backwards. And then there's the Hostess product...

So it is! I am not quite sure about the Hostess product.

Post by William Sommerwerck
Any relation to Chernabog? (The "Fantasia" Blu-ray will be out on 11/23.)

Not as far as I know but I very much doubt it! ( I don't really like
'Fantasia' and I don't yet own a Blu-ray player)
PS. I have no sockpuppets and I don't need any.

As we have agreed to a truce via private email, I'll drop the matter.  Sock
puppets and impersonators have been a problem here in the past.

No need for private emails. You're just a little turd, Tepper. An
"it". Go fuck a duck, the only beast who might vaguely be tempted to
satisfy your primal urges. Yuk, just the thought of Tepper in heat
sends a shudder down my back.

TD

[pianomaven]

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck

' rd g' means 'The Devil' -- nothing to do
with dogs -- unless the devil *is* a dog. ;)

Well, dog is God spelled backwards. And then there's the Hostess product...

So it is! I am not quite sure about the Hostess product.

Post by William Sommerwerck
Any relation to Chernabog? (The "Fantasia" Blu-ray will be out on 11/23.)

Not as far as I know but I very much doubt it! ( I don't really like
'Fantasia' and I don't yet own a Blu-ray player)
PS. I have no sockpuppets and I don't need any.

Don't worry about it.

Tepper just tried to "plonk" you once and it clearly didn't take. So,
he had to do it again.

Such a profoundly silly person. I was going to say "man", but that
would be far too flattering. He is really just an "it".

TD

[Ördög]

Post by pianomaven

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck

' rd g' means 'The Devil' -- nothing to do
with dogs -- unless the devil *is* a dog. ;)

Well, dog is God spelled backwards. And then there's the Hostess product...

So it is! I am not quite sure about the Hostess product.

Post by William Sommerwerck
Any relation to Chernabog? (The "Fantasia" Blu-ray will be out on 11/23.)

Not as far as I know but I very much doubt it! ( I don't really like
'Fantasia' and I don't yet own a Blu-ray player)
PS. I have no sockpuppets and I don't need any.

Don't worry about it.
Tepper just tried to "plonk" you once and it clearly didn't take. So,
he had to do it again.
Such a profoundly silly person. I was going to say "man", but that
would be far too flattering. He is really just an "it".
TD- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)

(Paul Macartney - I think)

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Ördög <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.

Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.

[Ördög]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.

I couldn't remember the title!

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.

Just so. I prefer to make friends, rather than enemies.

And I have one or two slight reservations about the Mackerras Enigma,
but they aren't very important - and I really don't think you will be
disappointed with Rattle. Both of them include first-rate performances
of 'Falstaff'.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Ördög <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:9639bc1a-6514-416d-9ff1-
letters

Post by Ördög
to

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.

I couldn't remember the title!

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.

Just so. I prefer to make friends, rather than enemies.
And I have one or two slight reservations about the Mackerras Enigma,
but they aren't very important - and I really don't think you will be
disappointed with Rattle. Both of them include first-rate performances
of 'Falstaff'.

I believe there is an issue of Rattle coupled with "Gerontius." The Angel
is Dame Janet Baker, making it tempting. What do you think of this one?

[Ördög]

Post by Ördög
And I have one or two slight reservations about the Mackerras Enigma,
but they aren't very important - and I really don't think you will be
disappointed with Rattle. Both of them include first-rate performances
of 'Falstaff'.

I believe there is an issue of Rattle coupled with "Gerontius."  The Angel
is Dame Janet Baker, making it tempting.  What do you think of this one?

I wish I could tell you! The 'Gerontius' I have is conducted by Boult.
The coupling is 'The Music Makers' and Dame Janet makes an appearance
there. I thought she was also in this version of Gerontius and I was
very disappointed to discover that she wasn't.

[Alan Dawes]

In article

Post by Ördög

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Ördög
And I have one or two slight reservations about the Mackerras
Enigma, but they aren't very important - and I really don't think
you will be disappointed with Rattle. Both of them include
first-rate performances of 'Falstaff'.

I believe there is an issue of Rattle coupled with "Gerontius." The
Angel is Dame Janet Baker, making it tempting. What do you think of
this one?

I wish I could tell you! The 'Gerontius' I have is conducted by Boult.
The coupling is 'The Music Makers' and Dame Janet makes an appearance
there. I thought she was also in this version of Gerontius and I was
very disappointed to discover that she wasn't.

Janet Baker is on the Barbirolli version of Gerontius eg see
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Dream-Gerontius-Sir-Edward/dp/B000026D0F
and Dame Janet is on the Rattle version see
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dream-Gerontius-Enigma-Variations-Rattle/dp/B000VNMS7O

Alan

[Ördög]

Janet Baker is on the Barbirolli version of Gerontius eg seehttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Dream-Gerontius-Sir-Edward/dp/B000026D0F
and Dame Janet is on the Rattle version seehttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Dream-Gerontius-Enigma-Variations-Rattle/dp/B...
Alan

Thank you Alan. I was never very fond of oratorios, and I only bought
the Boult recording because I was curious to know what all the fuss
was about. Sometimes I buy multiple versions of certain pieces but one
Gerontius is enough for me. With the benefit of hindsight, perhaps I
should have purchased the Barbirolli recording. As it is, I am quite
happy with the one I have, although I don't listen to it very often.

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Ördög

Janet Baker is on the Barbirolli version of Gerontius eg seehttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Dream-Gerontius-Sir-Edward/dp/B000026D0F
and Dame Janet is on the Rattle version seehttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Dream-Gerontius-Enigma-Variations-Rattle/dp/B...
Alan

Thank you Alan. I was never very fond of oratorios, and I only bought
the Boult recording because I was curious to know what all the fuss
was about. Sometimes I buy multiple versions of certain pieces but one
Gerontius is enough for me. With the benefit of hindsight, perhaps I
should have purchased the Barbirolli recording. As it is, I am quite
happy with the one I have, although I don't listen to it very often.

Do try to hear the Britten recording if you can. It's a different and
livelier experience.
Richard

[Ördög]

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Ördög

Janet Baker is on the Barbirolli version of Gerontius eg seehttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Dream-Gerontius-Sir-Edward/dp/B000026D0F
and Dame Janet is on the Rattle version seehttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Dream-Gerontius-Enigma-Variations-Rattle/dp/B...
Alan

Thank you Alan. I was never very fond of oratorios, and I only bought
the Boult recording because I was curious to know what all the fuss
was about. Sometimes I buy multiple versions of certain pieces but one
Gerontius is enough for me. With the benefit of hindsight, perhaps I
should have purchased the Barbirolli recording. As it is, I am quite
happy with the one I have, although I don't listen to it very often.

Do try to hear the Britten recording if you can. It's a different and
livelier experience.
Richard

Richard; thank you for your recommendation. I never make promises I
can't keep, but I shall keep this recording in mind for future
reference - and that *is* a promise.

[Christopher Webber]

Post by r***@gmail.com
Do try to hear the Britten recording if you can. It's a different and
livelier experience.

"Livelier" is perhaps curious praise for a "Gerontius" but you are quite
right! I would not want to be without either Britten or Barbirolli, not
least for Shirley-Quirke in the former, and Richard Lewis/Janet Baker in
the latter. If that team had been together on either.... well, we can
dream.

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Christopher Webber

Post by r***@gmail.com
Do try to hear the Britten recording if you can. It's a different and
livelier experience.

"Livelier" is perhaps curious praise for a "Gerontius" but you are quite
right! I would not want to be without either Britten or Barbirolli, not
least for Shirley-Quirke in the former, and Richard Lewis/Janet Baker in
the latter. If that team had been together on either.... well, we can
dream.
--
___________________________
Christopher Webber,  Blackheath, London,  UK.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Webberhttp://www.zarzuela.net

I chose 'livelier' as a 1-word descriptor because I once played the
Britten recording of Elgar's 'Demons' chorus' (actually 'but hark,
upon my senses comes a fierce hubbub . . .' to someone who disliked
Gerontius as boring and without any redeeming features. They were
bowled over. Perhaps I exaggerate, but it was like hearing Berlioz
Fantastique for the first time.

Richard

[Alan Dawes]

In article

Post by Ördög

Janet Baker is on the Barbirolli version of Gerontius eg seehttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Dream-Gerontius-Sir-Edward/dp/B000026D0F
and Dame Janet is on the Rattle version seehttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Dream-Gerontius-Enigma-Variations-Rattle/dp/B...
Alan

Thank you Alan. I was never very fond of oratorios, and I only bought
the Boult recording because I was curious to know what all the fuss
was about. Sometimes I buy multiple versions of certain pieces but one
Gerontius is enough for me. With the benefit of hindsight, perhaps I
should have purchased the Barbirolli recording. As it is, I am quite
happy with the one I have, although I don't listen to it very often.

I've recently been enjoying Mark Elders recording of Gerontius on the
Halle Label eg see:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edward-Elgar-Dream-Gerontius-Terfel/dp/B001IO152O
especially Alice Coote's contribution - a pupil of Dame Janet Baker.

I've also just heard Elgar's the Kingdom conducted by Mark Elder on the
Halle label which is also very good:
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/CDHLD7526.htm

Alan

[Ördög]

Post by Alan Dawes
I've recently been enjoying Mark Elders recording of Gerontius on the
Halle Label eg see:http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edward-Elgar-Dream-Gerontius-Terfel/dp/B001IO...
especially Alice Coote's contribution - a pupil of Dame Janet Baker.
I've also just heard Elgar's the Kingdom conducted by Mark Elder on the
Halle label which is also very good:http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/CDHLD7526.htm
Alan

I have only heard 'The Kingdom' once, and I wasn't encouraged to run
out and buy a copy. OTOH, it was a rehearsal, with the LPO & Handley.
This was sometime in the early 1980s when I was in London for a while.
I strolled into the church of St. Martin in the Fields while the
rehearsal was in progress. Although I enjoyed the playing and singing,
the piece did not make much impression on me. And as I have already
mentioned, oratorios aren't really "my thing". But recommendations are
always welcome, so, thank you!

[JAC]

I believe there is an issue of Rattle coupled with "Gerontius."  The Angel
is Dame Janet Baker, making it tempting.  What do you think of this one?

If I may respond, this is a 1987 recording -- "late period" Baker, and
the age shows audibly, I'm afraid (as it also does with the other
soloists, John Mitchinson and John Shirley-Quirk). The "good" Janet
Baker rendition of the Angel is on the 1964 Barbirolli recording.

(Not that you asked, but my own preferred Gerontius is the Britten
recording on Decca, largely because of his conducting and the
incredibly, unearthly beautiful Angel of Yvonne Minton. BRO has an 8-
disc Decca Elgar box for $32, containing most of his popular pieces
including this. I believe the Solti versions of the symphonies and
some of the other works are pretty highly regarded.)

JAC

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by JAC

I believe there is an issue of Rattle coupled with "Gerontius."  The
Angel is Dame Janet Baker, making it tempting.  What do you think of
this one?

If I may respond, this is a 1987 recording -- "late period" Baker, and
the age shows audibly, I'm afraid (as it also does with the other
soloists, John Mitchinson and John Shirley-Quirk). The "good" Janet
Baker rendition of the Angel is on the 1964 Barbirolli recording.

Well, yes, I assumed that Dame Janet was no longer in her prime, which is
why I said it was "tempting" but not an absolute must-by, and so held off
until I could get some opinions.

Post by JAC
(Not that you asked, but my own preferred Gerontius is the Britten
recording on Decca, largely because of his conducting and the incredibly,
unearthly beautiful Angel of Yvonne Minton. BRO has an 8-disc Decca Elgar
box for $32, containing most of his popular pieces including this. I
believe the Solti versions of the symphonies and some of the other works
are pretty highly regarded.)

I've already got a 2-CD issue of Britten's recording, albeit with couplings
I neither care for nor particularly want. I'll look into that 8-CD box.

[pianomaven]

Post by Ördög

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.

I couldn't remember the title!

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.

Just so. I prefer to make friends, rather than enemies.

Hmmmmmm.

The friends of my enemies are also my enemies.

Old Chinese saying.

TD

[Ördög]

Post by pianomaven

Post by Ördög

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.

I couldn't remember the title!

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.

Just so. I prefer to make friends, rather than enemies.

Hmmmmmm.
The friends of my enemies are also my enemies.
Old Chinese saying.
TD

I thought the saying was - "My enemy's enemy is my friend". Either
way, I'm sure it is best not to have any enemies at all. Life is much
easier that way, and I want to remain on good terms with *both* of
you. As I told you (privately), my fighting days ended in 1955, and I
don't really want to fight with *anyone* any more.

Pax vobiscum. (or words to that effect).

[ivanmaxim]

Post by Ördög

Post by pianomaven

Post by Ördög

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.

I couldn't remember the title!

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.

Just so. I prefer to make friends, rather than enemies.

Hmmmmmm.
The friends of my enemies are also my enemies.
Old Chinese saying.
TD

I thought the saying was - "My enemy's enemy is my friend". Either
way, I'm sure it is best not to have any enemies at all. Life is much
easier that way, and I want to remain on good terms with *both* of
you. As I told you (privately), my fighting days ended in 1955, and I
don't really want to fight with *anyone* any more.
Pax vobiscum. (or words to that effect).- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

You sound like a really nice guy but you haven't been here very long -
be assured Deacon will never be your enemy - as long as you agree with
him. Good luck!!! Wagner fan

[Ördög]

Post by ivanmaxim

Post by Ördög

Post by pianomaven

Post by Ördög

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.

I couldn't remember the title!

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.

Just so. I prefer to make friends, rather than enemies.

Hmmmmmm.
The friends of my enemies are also my enemies.
Old Chinese saying.
TD

I thought the saying was - "My enemy's enemy is my friend". Either
way, I'm sure it is best not to have any enemies at all. Life is much
easier that way, and I want to remain on good terms with *both* of
you. As I told you (privately), my fighting days ended in 1955, and I
don't really want to fight with *anyone* any more.
Pax vobiscum. (or words to that effect).
- Show quoted text -

You sound like a really nice guy but you haven't been here very long -
be assured Deacon will never be your enemy - as long as you agree with
him. Good luck!!!  Wagner fan

Thanks! But I am not *that* nice. I am not called 'Ördög' (the devil)
for no reason. It is a nickname I earned (if that is the right word)
almost 60 years ago and it has stuck with me ever since. But I am a
benign devil these days:-)

[Gerard]

Post by Ördög

letters to be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.

I couldn't remember the title!

Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.

Just so. I prefer to make friends, rather than enemies.

Exactly what I thought when seeing your first "peace declarations".

[Ördög]

Post by Gerard

Post by Ördög

letters to be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.

I couldn't remember the title!

Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.

Just so. I prefer to make friends, rather than enemies.

Exactly what I thought when seeing your first "peace declarations".
- Show quoted text -

"Peace declarations"? Yes, I think I see what you mean. I didn't make
a very good start, did I? Hopefully, that is all over now - and I
shall be as peaceful as possible.

[ivanmaxim]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.
Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.
--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here:http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

Yes do try that with Deacon and let us all know how that comes out.
BTW I was recently reading a few articles about the infamous Hatto
affair in New Yorker magazine archives, Wikipedia and some other
places and la Deacon shows up rather prominently. Unfortunately, he
comes off as a fool both times but its still prominent so for that he
can be grateful, I'm sure!!! Wagner Fan

[Matthew B. Tepper]

ivanmaxim <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:5788ea43-f44c-40e4-925b-

Post by ivanmaxim

letters to be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.
Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.

Yes do try that with Deacon and let us all know how that comes out.
BTW I was recently reading a few articles about the infamous Hatto
affair in New Yorker magazine archives, Wikipedia and some other
places and la Deacon shows up rather prominently. Unfortunately, he
comes off as a fool both times but its still prominent so for that he
can be grateful, I'm sure!!! Wagner Fan

Deacon is a lost cause; I was talking about Ördög.

[pianomaven]

Post by ivanmaxim

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.
Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.
--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here:http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

Yes do try that with Deacon and let us all know how that comes out.
BTW I was recently reading a few articles about the infamous Hatto
affair in New Yorker magazine archives, Wikipedia and some other
places and la Deacon shows up rather prominently. Unfortunately, he
comes off as a fool both times but its still prominent so for that he
can be grateful, I'm sure!!!

As long as they spell my name right, as they say.

Did they quote you, Dickey?

Incidentally, that hack who wrote the article wanted to "interview"
me, and I declined gracefully. So, everything he has he got third
hand. Some "journalist"!

TD

[O]

In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by ivanmaxim
Yes do try that with Deacon and let us all know how that comes out.
BTW I was recently reading a few articles about the infamous Hatto
affair in New Yorker magazine archives, Wikipedia and some other
places and la Deacon shows up rather prominently. Unfortunately, he
comes off as a fool both times but its still prominent so for that he
can be grateful, I'm sure!!!

As long as they spell my name right, as they say.
Did they quote you, Dickey?
Incidentally, that hack who wrote the article wanted to "interview"
me, and I declined gracefully. So, everything he has he got third
hand. Some "journalist"!

Yes, by denying him the pleasure of your side of the story, he had only
your own posts to damn you with.

-Owen

[pianomaven]

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by ivanmaxim
Yes do try that with Deacon and let us all know how that comes out.
BTW I was recently reading a few articles about the infamous Hatto
affair in New Yorker magazine archives, Wikipedia and some other
places and la Deacon shows up rather prominently. Unfortunately, he
comes off as a fool both times but its still prominent so for that he
can be grateful, I'm sure!!!

As long as they spell my name right, as they say.
Did they quote you, Dickey?
Incidentally, that hack who wrote the article wanted to "interview"
me, and I declined gracefully. So, everything he has he got third
hand. Some "journalist"!

Yes, by denying him the pleasure of your side of the story, he had only
your own posts to damn you with.

No, he had only a small part of the story, but didn't damn anyone,
actually, not even the perpetrator of the hoax. You must know that the
New Yorker is VERY careful about the things it writes. They want no
lawsuits. But his article was minus all the little personal notes I
received from Madame over a period of two or three years. I still keep
those, for some strange reason. I should delete them some day. I still
have to believe that she was complicit in the fraud, despite the
denials of her hubby.

TD

[O]

In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by ivanmaxim
Yes do try that with Deacon and let us all know how that comes out.
BTW I was recently reading a few articles about the infamous Hatto
affair in New Yorker magazine archives, Wikipedia and some other
places and la Deacon shows up rather prominently. Unfortunately, he
comes off as a fool both times but its still prominent so for that he
can be grateful, I'm sure!!!

As long as they spell my name right, as they say.
Did they quote you, Dickey?
Incidentally, that hack who wrote the article wanted to "interview"
me, and I declined gracefully. So, everything he has he got third
hand. Some "journalist"!

Yes, by denying him the pleasure of your side of the story, he had only
your own posts to damn you with.

No, he had only a small part of the story, but didn't damn anyone,
actually, not even the perpetrator of the hoax. You must know that the
New Yorker is VERY careful about the things it writes. They want no
lawsuits. But his article was minus all the little personal notes I
received from Madame over a period of two or three years. I still keep
those, for some strange reason. I should delete them some day. I still
have to believe that she was complicit in the fraud, despite the
denials of her hubby.

Then why not post here those "little personal notes" which might shine
a little more light on the motivations of those who perpetrated the
plot, and might also provide someone else some other clues by which it
all can be put together? Certainly, you owe neither Ms. Hatto nor her
husband any consideration, after what they've put *you* through.

There's a legalism to the effect of: you can't slander the dead. You
don't even have to prove that they are from Ms. Hatto to be safe, and I
would think WBC has bigger fish to fry then bothering with you.

-Owen

[ivanmaxim]

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by ivanmaxim
Yes do try that with Deacon and let us all know how that comes out.
BTW I was recently reading a few articles about the infamous Hatto
affair in New Yorker magazine archives, Wikipedia and some other
places and la Deacon shows up rather prominently. Unfortunately, he
comes off as a fool both times but its still prominent so for that he
can be grateful, I'm sure!!!

As long as they spell my name right, as they say.
Did they quote you, Dickey?
Incidentally, that hack who wrote the article wanted to "interview"
me, and I declined gracefully. So, everything he has he got third
hand. Some "journalist"!

Yes, by denying him the pleasure of your side of the story, he had only
your own posts to damn you with.

No, he had only a small part of the story, but didn't damn anyone,
actually, not even the perpetrator of the hoax. You must know that the
New Yorker is VERY careful about the things it writes. They want no
lawsuits. But his article was  minus all the little personal notes I
received from Madame over a period of two or three years. I still keep
those, for some strange reason. I should delete them some day. I still
have to believe that she was complicit in the fraud, despite the
denials of her hubby.

Then why not post here those "little personal notes" which might shine
a little more light on the motivations of those who perpetrated the
plot, and might also provide someone else some other clues by which it
all can be put together?  Certainly, you owe neither Ms. Hatto nor her
husband any consideration, after what they've put *you* through.  
There's a legalism to the effect of: you can't slander the dead.  You
don't even have to prove that they are from Ms. Hatto to be safe, and I
would think WBC has bigger fish to fry then bothering with you.
-Owen- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Oh thats funny - is that what Deacons been posting???? (I killfiled
him a long time ago and only become aware of his droppings when they
are referenced in the postings of those who actually have things
relevant to say.)
Of course the bottom line is that Hatto herself has little to do with
the fact that Deacon reviewed two identical recordings differently
because he thought one was by Hatto - perhaps it was the one that
"It is just magical: light as a feather, fluent, colourful, textures
limpid as a mountain spring, tonally luscious, rhythmically alive and
bright. A dream.” (Christ- who writes like that? - its like the
written version of Ipecac.)

The problem is the value of his judgement - the Hatto scandal just
demonstrated it. Perhaps he was so besotted by those personal notes,
that she actually deigned to write to him - that his judgement was,
um, clouded???? The whole thing is too ridiculous. Wagner fan

[pianomaven]

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by ivanmaxim
Yes do try that with Deacon and let us all know how that comes out.
BTW I was recently reading a few articles about the infamous Hatto
affair in New Yorker magazine archives, Wikipedia and some other
places and la Deacon shows up rather prominently. Unfortunately, he
comes off as a fool both times but its still prominent so for that he
can be grateful, I'm sure!!!

As long as they spell my name right, as they say.
Did they quote you, Dickey?
Incidentally, that hack who wrote the article wanted to "interview"
me, and I declined gracefully. So, everything he has he got third
hand. Some "journalist"!

Yes, by denying him the pleasure of your side of the story, he had only
your own posts to damn you with.

No, he had only a small part of the story, but didn't damn anyone,
actually, not even the perpetrator of the hoax. You must know that the
New Yorker is VERY careful about the things it writes. They want no
lawsuits. But his article was  minus all the little personal notes I
received from Madame over a period of two or three years. I still keep
those, for some strange reason. I should delete them some day. I still
have to believe that she was complicit in the fraud, despite the
denials of her hubby.

Then why not post here those "little personal notes" which might shine
a little more light on the motivations of those who perpetrated the
plot, and might also provide someone else some other clues by which it
all can be put together?  Certainly, you owe neither Ms. Hatto nor her
husband any consideration, after what they've put *you* through.  

What was a private note will remain a private note, the curiosity of
the hoi polloi to the contrary notwishstanding.

You must be joking when you think Ms. Hatto "put me through" anything.
I a out a few hundred dollars, that's all. The CDs sit in a box. I
plan to remove the CDs and booklets and use the cases as replacements
for broken cases when needed.

You know, this story is very old, years old. I don't even think about
it unless somebody with a keen memory brings it up.

There's an old Chinese saying: "Deal with it!"

TD

[O]

In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by ivanmaxim
Yes do try that with Deacon and let us all know how that comes out.
BTW I was recently reading a few articles about the infamous Hatto
affair in New Yorker magazine archives, Wikipedia and some other
places and la Deacon shows up rather prominently. Unfortunately, he
comes off as a fool both times but its still prominent so for that he
can be grateful, I'm sure!!!

As long as they spell my name right, as they say.
Did they quote you, Dickey?
Incidentally, that hack who wrote the article wanted to "interview"
me, and I declined gracefully. So, everything he has he got third
hand. Some "journalist"!

Yes, by denying him the pleasure of your side of the story, he had only
your own posts to damn you with.

No, he had only a small part of the story, but didn't damn anyone,
actually, not even the perpetrator of the hoax. You must know that the
New Yorker is VERY careful about the things it writes. They want no
lawsuits. But his article was  minus all the little personal notes I
received from Madame over a period of two or three years. I still keep
those, for some strange reason. I should delete them some day. I still
have to believe that she was complicit in the fraud, despite the
denials of her hubby.

Then why not post here those "little personal notes" which might shine
a little more light on the motivations of those who perpetrated the
plot, and might also provide someone else some other clues by which it
all can be put together?  Certainly, you owe neither Ms. Hatto nor her
husband any consideration, after what they've put *you* through.  

What was a private note will remain a private note, the curiosity of
the hoi polloi to the contrary notwishstanding.

Then why bring up the "little personal notes" if you feel their only
purpose is to assuage the curiosity of the masses?

Post by pianomaven
You must be joking when you think Ms. Hatto "put me through" anything.
I a out a few hundred dollars, that's all. The CDs sit in a box. I
plan to remove the CDs and booklets and use the cases as replacements
for broken cases when needed.

She obviously put you through enough to be featured in a New Yorker
article, probably some of the few posts you'd just as soon forget.

Post by pianomaven
You know, this story is very old, years old. I don't even think about
it unless somebody with a keen memory brings it up.

It appears the New Yorker brought it up.

Post by pianomaven
There's an old Chinese saying: "Deal with it!"

Hey, Tom, what went on between you and the Hattos, if there was
anything at all, is your business, not mine. I was only out the cost
of 2 disks.

-Owen

[pianomaven]

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by Paul Penna
In article

Post by pianomaven

Post by ivanmaxim
Yes do try that with Deacon and let us all know how that comes out.
BTW I was recently reading a few articles about the infamous Hatto
affair in New Yorker magazine archives, Wikipedia and some other
places and la Deacon shows up rather prominently. Unfortunately, he
comes off as a fool both times but its still prominent so for that
he
can be grateful, I'm sure!!!

As long as they spell my name right, as they say.
Did they quote you, Dickey?
Incidentally, that hack who wrote the article wanted to "interview"
me, and I declined gracefully. So, everything he has he got third
hand. Some "journalist"!

Yes, by denying him the pleasure of your side of the story, he had only
your own posts to damn you with.

No, he had only a small part of the story, but didn't damn anyone,
actually, not even the perpetrator of the hoax. You must know that the
New Yorker is VERY careful about the things it writes. They want no
lawsuits. But his article was minus all the little personal notes I
received from Madame over a period of two or three years. I still keep
those, for some strange reason. I should delete them some day. I still
have to believe that she was complicit in the fraud, despite the
denials of her hubby.

Then why not post here those "little personal notes" which might shine
a little more light on the motivations of those who perpetrated the
plot, and might also provide someone else some other clues by which it
all can be put together? Certainly, you owe neither Ms. Hatto nor her
husband any consideration, after what they've put *you* through.

What was a private note will remain a private note, the curiosity of
the hoi polloi to the contrary notwishstanding.

Then why bring up the "little personal notes" if you feel their only
purpose is to assuage the curiosity of the masses?

I just mentioned them, as they were not available to the writer of the
article. So, what he wrote in connection to me was third hand.

Post by Paul Penna

Post by pianomaven
You must be joking when you think Ms. Hatto "put me through" anything.
I a out a few hundred dollars, that's all. The CDs sit in a box. I
plan to remove the CDs and booklets and use the cases as replacements
for broken cases when needed.

She obviously put you through enough to be featured in a New Yorker
article, probably some of the few posts you'd just as soon forget.

LOL

Let's say that I am much happier about Alex Ross' article on the Great
Pianists series. But frankly I don't read the New Yorker except from
time to time. So, no, I was not "put through" anything.

Post by Paul Penna

Post by pianomaven
You know, this story is very old, years old. I don't even think about
it unless somebody with a keen memory brings it up.

It appears the New Yorker brought it up.

Hmmmm. Within a few months.

Some here seem to be obsessed by it, which is OK, I guess, but nothing
to do with me whatsoever. I only respond as necessary.

Post by Paul Penna

Post by pianomaven
There's an old Chinese saying: "Deal with it!"

Hey, Tom, what went on between you and the Hattos, if there was
anything at all, is your business, not mine.  I was only out the cost
of 2 disks.

I was only out a few hundred dollars. That's the price of a good meal
in New York.

TD

[pianomaven]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:4c6ac8a2-da45-4f58-8a2d-330d983b6241

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

We can work it out.
Sometimes, a few emails back and forth is all that's needed.

Tepper smoking the peace pipe!

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

What a turd!

And a hypocritical one too boot!

TD

[pianomaven]

Post by Ördög

Post by pianomaven

Post by Ördög

Post by William Sommerwerck

' rd g' means 'The Devil' -- nothing to do
with dogs -- unless the devil *is* a dog. ;)

Well, dog is God spelled backwards. And then there's the Hostess product...

So it is! I am not quite sure about the Hostess product.

Post by William Sommerwerck
Any relation to Chernabog? (The "Fantasia" Blu-ray will be out on 11/23.)

Not as far as I know but I very much doubt it! ( I don't really like
'Fantasia' and I don't yet own a Blu-ray player)
PS. I have no sockpuppets and I don't need any.

Don't worry about it.
Tepper just tried to "plonk" you once and it clearly didn't take. So,
he had to do it again.
Such a profoundly silly person. I was going to say "man", but that
would be far too flattering. He is really just an "it".
TD- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

Frankly, I don't care whether it is PM or Jesus Christ.

Tepper is a self-righteous idiot. Dickey clearly needs another shower.

Plus ca change.....

TD

[boombox]

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

Paul's song, but Lennon wrote the middle eight with that line in it.

[Ördög]

Post by boombox

Post by Ördög
Tom - " Life is too short for fussing and fighting, my friend" :)
(Paul Macartney - I think)

Paul's song, but Lennon wrote the middle eight with that line in it.

Thanks. I never actually owned that recording and those are the only
words I remember from it - apart from "try to see it my way". I
thought Paul M. was responsible for the whole song, then I remembered
that Lennon composed the lyrics/words to so much of The Beatles stuff.
But I was never really a big fan of them anyway. "Hey Jude" sticks in
my mind, but only for sentimental reasons.

[Abbeddrose Bierce]

On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 09:44:19 -0800 (PST), Ördög

Post by Ördög
then I remembered
that Lennon composed the lyrics/words to so much of The Beatles stuff.

Wronggggggggg

Abbedd

[Ördög]

Post by Abbeddrose Bierce
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 09:44:19 -0800 (PST), Ördög

Post by Ördög
then I remembered
that Lennon composed the lyrics/words to so much of The Beatles stuff.

Wronggggggggg
Abbedd

As I said: I was never a really a fan of The Beatles; so yes, I am
probably "Wrongggggggg" - and I apologise if I haven't included the
correct number of Gs.

[D***@aol.com]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I've written here before about two of the theories I've seen which suggest
solutions for the question of, well, just what was the "hidden theme" of
Elgar's "Enigma" Variations.  I'm still quite fond of Theodore van Houten's
suggestion that it is "Rule, Brittania."  I've remarked many times here on
a strange little book I picked up years ago in an antiquarian shop, "Mute
Music" by Roberto Schmitz, in which the author jumps through a great many
hoops in claiming that there are many coded remarks leading to his
conclusion that Elgar thought his friends were really a bunch of sods.  And
the entry for the Variations in Wikipedia presents some other alternatives.

"A bunch of sods"? As in gays?

When Beecham was excluded from Covent Garden after World War II by
David Webster, Beecham resentfully called the place "The Twilight of
the Sods."

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I just thought I'd pass this along here, and maybe start a fresh thread on
the Variations themselves, and recordings.  The "standard" recommendations
include Monteux and the composer; which ones do YOU like?

Toscanini, especially the 1952 NBC SO recording. And Beecham/RPO --
very personal, but superb. There are many newer that I've never never
heard. And thumbs up to your choices.

Don Tait

[Paul Penna]

In article

Post by D***@aol.com

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I've written here before about two of the theories I've seen which suggest
solutions for the question of, well, just what was the "hidden theme" of
Elgar's "Enigma" Variations.  I'm still quite fond of Theodore van Houten's
suggestion that it is "Rule, Brittania."  I've remarked many times here on
a strange little book I picked up years ago in an antiquarian shop, "Mute
Music" by Roberto Schmitz, in which the author jumps through a great many
hoops in claiming that there are many coded remarks leading to his
conclusion that Elgar thought his friends were really a bunch of sods.  And
the entry for the Variations in Wikipedia presents some other alternatives.

"A bunch of sods"? As in gays?
When Beecham was excluded from Covent Garden after World War II by
David Webster, Beecham resentfully called the place "The Twilight of
the Sods."

Well, the slang term does ultimately derive from sodomite, but it and
its derivatives eventually took on a broader range of pejorative
meanings that don't specifically relate to sodomy. So "a sod" can
roughly translate to "a jerk," "sod about" to "screw around." If you
were to tell someone to "Sod off!" it would be the equivalent to saying
"F**k off," but in neither case would you be telling the person to
literally commit sodomy or fornication, respectively. Perhaps you knew
this, but were being ironic?

[Matthew B. Tepper]

***@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in news:1a34b197-1807-4d0b-810a-

Post by D***@aol.com
Toscanini, especially the 1952 NBC SO recording. And Beecham/RPO --
very personal, but superb. There are many newer that I've never never
heard. And thumbs up to your choices.

I like Toscanini in this music, too, but I prefer his issued broadcast with
the BBC Symphony Orchestra, dimmer sound notwithstanding.

[woytek]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I like Toscanini in this music, too, but I prefer his issued broadcast with
the BBC Symphony Orchestra, dimmer sound notwithstanding.

Also my favorite recording! And there was also very dramatic reading
from Adrian Boult and Concertgebouw (live 1940, Concertgebouw historic
box).

[Mike Painter]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Briefly, Robert Wayne Padgett thinks it is "Ein feste Burg ist unser
Gott." I don't want to dismiss this out of hand, and I will require more
time to study it than I have during my lunch break today (especially with
all of the interruptions!), but it raises my eyebrows to think that a
devout Catholic such as Elgar would focus so on a hymn tune which was a
pillar of the Reformation. Still, I imagine it's possible.

That would certainly qualify as an enigma, though, wouldn't it?

cheers,
Mike

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I just thought I'd pass this along here, and maybe start a fresh thread
on the Variations themselves, and recordings. The "standard"
recommendations include Monteux and the composer; which ones do YOU
like?

It's a piece which hardly ever seems to receive a sub-standard
recording, which is a testament to its quality.

There are many good recordings which are easy to overlook in the crowd.
One wellnigh forgotten stand-out for me is Andrew Litton's with the RPO
(originally Virgin Classics, but reissued several times on various
labels) which is coupled with one of the very best "In the South"
performances available.

Otherwise it's still Barbirolli for me (1947 version, on Dutton).
C

[Paul Goldstein]

In article <***@216.168.3.70>, Matthew B. Tepper
says...
The "standard" recommendations

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
include Monteux and the composer; which ones do YOU like?

In addition to the 3 Toscanini recs (don't forget the live 1951 issued by
Relief), I prefer Haitink and Norman Del Mar, both of which capture the organ
part better than most. In fact, many recordings seem to dispense with the organ
entirely. Other excellent but oft-overlooked Enigmas are by Ormandy and
Sargent.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Matthew B. Tepper says...

The "standard" recommendations include Monteux and the composer; which
ones do YOU like?

In addition to the 3 Toscanini recs (don't forget the live 1951 issued
by Relief),

Was that the live concert from around the time of the commercial recording?
I believe I have that on a Toscanini Society LP. Powder-blue jacket, if
it's the one I'm thinking of.

I prefer Haitink and Norman Del Mar, both of which capture the organ part
better than most. In fact, many recordings seem to dispense with the
organ entirely. Other excellent but oft-overlooked Enigmas are by
Ormandy and Sargent.

Ever hear Jochum? That was a pretty good one, from a surprising source.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Was that the live concert from around the time of the commercial
recording? I believe I have that on a Toscanini Society LP.
Powder-blue jacket, if it's the one I'm thinking of.

No, that was a concert which included the Brahms 2nd.

[Kerrison]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Was that the live concert from around the time of the commercial
recording?  I believe I have that on a Toscanini Society LP.
Powder-blue jacket, if it's the one I'm thinking of.

No, that was a concert which included the Brahms 2nd.
--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here:http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

There's a goodly selection of 'Nimrods' on You Tube ...

Barenboim / Chicago Symphony ...

Sargent / LSO

Stokowski / Czech Philharmonic ...

Colin Davis / LSO ...

and the most controversial of the lot:

Bernstein and the BBC Symphony ..

Wasn't this music inspired by the slow movement of the Beethoven
Pathetique Sonata?

[Paul Goldstein]

In article <***@216.168.3.70>, Matthew B. Tepper
says...

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Matthew B. Tepper says...

The "standard" recommendations include Monteux and the composer; which
ones do YOU like?

In addition to the 3 Toscanini recs (don't forget the live 1951 issued
by Relief), . . .

Was that the live concert from around the time of the commercial recording?

Feb. 17, 1951. The rest of the program was Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun
and Fountains of Rome.

[El Klauso]

I find that the counterpoint imposition of "Ein Feste Burg" upon one
of the sections of Elgar's "Enigma" as demonstrated in the Youtube
link is overly labored and unnaturally pulled about to achieve its
effect, straining at the harmonic structures of both pieces in a
manner most un-Elgarischistic.
This, added to the Lutheran aspect of the tune, pretty much rules it
out as "the solution," to my way of thinking.

[Ördög]

Post by El Klauso
This, added to the Lutheran aspect of the tune, pretty much rules it
out as "the solution," to my way of thinking.

Not to my way of thinking. Mendelssohn was Jewish, although brought up
in the Lutheran tradition and composed his "Reformation Symphony",
which makes a really big deal of "Ein feste Burg". Mahler had to
convert in order to get a conductorship but his outlook remained
Jewish, yet he composed the "Resurrection Symphony". Why then should
not Elgar use a Lutheran chorale? But where in 'Enigma' does Elgar use
it? I have an Eulenberg score and I can't see it. Apart from all that,
I am not sure that a "solution" exists. I think it was an example of
Elgarian (or "Elgarischistic") humour.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

El Klauso <***@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:d3e9a9bc-edcf-43b8-9295-

Post by El Klauso
I find that the counterpoint imposition of "Ein Feste Burg" upon one
of the sections of Elgar's "Enigma" as demonstrated in the Youtube
link is overly labored and unnaturally pulled about to achieve its
effect, straining at the harmonic structures of both pieces in a
manner most un-Elgarischistic.
This, added to the Lutheran aspect of the tune, pretty much rules it
out as "the solution," to my way of thinking.

I'm inclined to agree, and I still lean toward the "Rule, Brittania" theory.

[mark]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:d3e9a9bc-edcf-43b8-9295-

Post by El Klauso
I find that the counterpoint imposition of "Ein Feste Burg" upon one
of the sections of Elgar's "Enigma" as demonstrated in the Youtube
link is overly labored and unnaturally pulled about to achieve its
effect, straining at the harmonic structures of both pieces in a
manner most un-Elgarischistic.
This, added to the Lutheran aspect of the tune, pretty much rules it
out as "the solution," to my way of thinking.

I'm inclined to agree, and I still lean toward the "Rule, Brittania" theory.
--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here:http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

I found the explanations compelling for considering Ein feste Burg as
the tune. They seem to make as much sense as anything else I've heard,
though it is disconcerting to hear parts of Luther's tune slipping
into minor mode to make the enigma "work."

Until someone discovers something in Elgar's own hand stating what the
Enigma tune actually was, I'd think the mystery will stay a mystery.

Nothing wrong with that.

[Ördög]

Post by mark

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:d3e9a9bc-edcf-43b8-9295-

Post by El Klauso
I find that the counterpoint imposition of "Ein Feste Burg" upon one
of the sections of Elgar's "Enigma" as demonstrated in the Youtube
link is overly labored and unnaturally pulled about to achieve its
effect, straining at the harmonic structures of both pieces in a
manner most un-Elgarischistic.
This, added to the Lutheran aspect of the tune, pretty much rules it
out as "the solution," to my way of thinking.

I'm inclined to agree, and I still lean toward the "Rule, Brittania" theory.
--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here:http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

I found the explanations compelling for considering Ein feste Burg as
the tune. They seem to make as much sense as anything else I've heard,
though it is disconcerting to hear parts of Luther's tune slipping
into minor mode to make the enigma "work."
Until someone discovers something in Elgar's own hand stating what the
Enigma tune actually was, I'd think the mystery will stay a mystery.
Nothing wrong with that.

I agree with you. I still think (although I have no proof) that the
title 'Enigma' was one of Elgar's jokes. And what better joke than to
have so many people searching for an answer when there might not be
one? Maybe that is why he called it 'Enigma', because it is enigmatic
and can't be properly answered or explained.

[Kip Williams]

Post by Ördög
I agree with you. I still think (although I have no proof) that the
title 'Enigma' was one of Elgar's jokes. And what better joke than to
have so many people searching for an answer when there might not be
one? Maybe that is why he called it 'Enigma', because it is enigmatic
and can't be properly answered or explained.

"The stuff dreams are made of."


Kip W

[Ördög]

Post by Kip Williams

Post by Ördög
I agree with you. I still think (although I have no proof) that the
title 'Enigma' was one of Elgar's jokes. And what better joke than to
have so many people searching for an answer when there might not be
one? Maybe that is why he called it 'Enigma', because it is enigmatic
and can't be properly answered or explained.

"The stuff dreams are made of."
Kip W

From "Dream Children" [Elgar] - and please correct me if I get it
wrong:

"We are nothing. Less than nothing. We are dreams; we are only what we
might have been".

[Kip Williams]

Post by Ördög

Post by Kip Williams

Post by Ördög
I agree with you. I still think (although I have no proof) that the
title 'Enigma' was one of Elgar's jokes. And what better joke than to
have so many people searching for an answer when there might not be
one? Maybe that is why he called it 'Enigma', because it is enigmatic
and can't be properly answered or explained.

"The stuff dreams are made of."

From "Dream Children" [Elgar] - and please correct me if I get it
"We are nothing. Less than nothing. We are dreams; we are only what we
might have been".

I don't know that much Elgar, so don't worry about any corrections from me.


Kip W

[Kerrison]

Post by Kip Williams

Post by Kip Williams

Post by Ördög
I agree with you. I still think (although I have no proof) that the
title 'Enigma' was one of Elgar's jokes. And what better joke than to
have so many people searching for an answer when there might not be
one? Maybe that is why he called it 'Enigma', because it is enigmatic
and can't be properly answered or explained.

"The stuff dreams are made of."

 From "Dream Children" [Elgar] - and please correct me if I get it
"We are nothing. Less than nothing. We are dreams; we are only what we
might have been".

I don't know that much Elgar, so don't worry about any corrections from me.
Kip W- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I thought 'Auld Lang Syne' was supposed to be the top choice for the
'unheard melody' that 'goes with' the Enigma theme, though it has to
be in the minor key, if memory serves. By the way, doesn't anyone have
the one of the most exuberent Enigmas ever recorded, that by Rolf
Kleinert and the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra on Berlin Classics?
It's superb.

[LarryLap]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I've written here before about two of the theories I've seen which suggest
solutions for the question of, well, just what was the "hidden theme" of
Elgar's "Enigma" Variations.  I'm still quite fond of Theodore van Houten's
suggestion that it is "Rule, Brittania."  I've remarked many times here on
a strange little book I picked up years ago in an antiquarian shop, "Mute
Music" by Roberto Schmitz, in which the author jumps through a great many
hoops in claiming that there are many coded remarks leading to his
conclusion that Elgar thought his friends were really a bunch of sods.  And
the entry for the Variations in Wikipedia presents some other alternatives.
http://enigmathemeunmasked.blogspot.com/p/elgars-enigmas-exposed.html
Briefly, Robert Wayne Padgett thinks it is "Ein feste Burg ist unser
Gott."  I don't want to dismiss this out of hand, and I will require more
time to study it than I have during my lunch break today (especially with
all of the interruptions!), but it raises my eyebrows to think that a
devout Catholic such as Elgar would focus so on a hymn tune which was a
pillar of the Reformation.  Still, I imagine it's possible.
I just thought I'd pass this along here, and maybe start a fresh thread on
the Variations themselves, and recordings.  The "standard" recommendations
include Monteux and the composer; which ones do YOU like?
--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here:http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

I have always thought that LAPO/Mehta is a terrific performance.

[Prai Jei]

Matthew�B.�Tepper set the following eddies spiralling through the

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Briefly, Robert Wayne Padgett thinks it is "Ein feste Burg ist unser
Gott." I don't want to dismiss this out of hand, and I will require more
time to study it than I have during my lunch break today (especially with
all of the interruptions!), but it raises my eyebrows to think that a
devout Catholic such as Elgar would focus so on a hymn tune which was a
pillar of the Reformation. Still, I imagine it's possible.

I still maintain that there's something in the fact that the "Nimrod" theme,
if the pitch of the notes is disregarded, spells out ERNEST in Morse code.

[Ördög]

Post by Prai Jei
I still maintain that there's something in the fact that the "Nimrod" theme,
if the pitch of the notes is disregarded, spells out ERNEST in Morse code.

Are you sure? In Morse Code," Ernest" looks like this-

E = .
R = ._.
N = _ .
E= .
S = ...
T = _

...which doesn't match the note values of Nimrod at all.

[Prai Jei]

Post by Ördög

Post by Prai Jei
I still maintain that there's something in the fact that the "Nimrod"
theme, if the pitch of the notes is disregarded, spells out ERNEST in
Morse code.

Are you sure? In Morse Code," Ernest" looks like this-
E = .
R = ._.
N = _ .
E= .
S = ...
T = _
...which doesn't match the note values of Nimrod at all.

m d f- r s- r r f m s d'
. . - . - . . . . . -
E R N E S T

[Ördög]

Post by Ördög

Post by Prai Jei
I still maintain that there's something in the fact that the "Nimrod"
theme, if the pitch of the notes is disregarded, spells out ERNEST in
Morse code.

Are you sure? In Morse Code," Ernest" looks like this-
E = .
R = ._.
N = _ .
E= .
S = ...
T = _
...which doesn't match the note values of Nimrod at all.

m    d f- r    s- r   r   f m s   d'
.    . -  .    -  .   .   . . .   -
E      R         N    E     S     T

Sorry, I don't really get it. OTOH, I am about 50 years behind the
times with Morse code and perhaps you are using a different version of
it.
...

[Gerard]

Post by Ördög
Sorry, I don't really get it. OTOH, I am about 50 years behind the
times with Morse code and perhaps you are using a different version of
it.

Right. Morse has been replaced by his assistant Lewis since long.

[Ördög]

Post by Gerard

Post by Ördög
Sorry, I don't really get it. OTOH, I am about 50 years behind the
times with Morse code and perhaps you are using a different version of
it.

Right. Morse has been replaced by his assistant Lewis since long.

LOL! So it was 'Lewis Code'!

PS. I know Inspector Morse's first name - - do you?