Post by Arnaud FournetPost by Ruud HarmsenThen also try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology, last
row but one of the sample table, phonemes /y:/ and /y/. Please click
on the arrow to play the sample. Do you hear something similar to a
French "sule"? Or more like "sile"?
And the sample of Swedisch <ful>, is it more like French foule, or
French fule?
Also please compare Swedish <sil> (top row) with <syl>.
The word herring is not /sɪlː/ with English ɪ, but French i, it's not
far from French word cil "eye-lash".
Yes, I agree, I also hear [i] rather than [ɪ]. But maybe that difference is not really important in Swedish, I don't know.
Post by Arnaud FournetTo me, the distinction between syl "awl" and sil "sieve" is
not lip-rounding as in French ü vs i but a kind of pharyngeal
feature, syl sounds low-tone and pharyngealized, but not
lip-rounded.
I tried to say <sil> /si:l/ as in the example, and then added pharyngalisation as in Arabic. But the result really sounds different from the <syl> /sy:l/.
On the other hand, if I pronounce a Dutch <uu> (with quite a lot of lip-rounding) and continue that sound, then try to fully front that vowel, without changing anything to the lips position, I get a result that is very much like the sample of <syl>. It is a very un-Dutch vowel, very strange, not known (to me) from any other languages than Swedish and Norwegian.
The same result of course should be obtainable by starting from a Dutch <ie> = [i], making it overlong, and then adding lip-rounding WITHOUT doing the slight centralisation that is automatic in Dutch and French and lots of other languages. That is hard for me, because the connexion between the two (lip rounding and centralisation) is so automatic and unconscious.
Yet, when really concentrating, I can do that too, and the result is, again, a Swedish /y:/. Very un-Dutch, but clearly different from unrounded [i::].
Post by Arnaud FournetThe description in this table is aberrant.
Actually the vowel closest to French ü is that of ful 'ugly' and
I hear the same vowel as in German Gefühl.
That's right, Germand and French (and Danish, Dutch, Turkish and Hungarian do not differ in this respect.
Post by Arnaud FournetIt has nothing to do with /fʉːl/
That's right, because that Swedish vowel (written <u>) is really central, whereas the German, French etc. /y/ phonemes are realised somewhere in between central and front.
It is, phonologically, but the realisation of such phonemes (in French, German etc.) is NOT IPA [y(:)]. The Swedish and Norwegian phoneme realisations are (or very nearly so).
Post by Arnaud Fournetfull, 'full' sounds like French foule, it's not /fɵlː/ but /fu:l/.
Now you are confusing French rounded back vowels with Swedish rounded central vowels. That's understandable, because French does not have such vowels, so you mind has to look for a nearest 'equivalent' in your language. Then you think they're the same, but they are not.
You can hear that from the Swedish /u:/ phoneme, spelt <o>. That one is really back, like the <ou> in French <foule>.
Post by Arnaud FournetI completely disagree with the transcriptions.
The transcriptions are correct, but your interpretation ability is influenced by your native language. So is mine (but then by Dutch, of course) -- but I trained myself to be able to switch that natural effect off temporarily. It's hard, but it can be done.