YASID: Different value for pi

[Bice]

I used to joke that my memory is weaker than a Commodore 64's. After
this incident, I may have to downgrade that to Vic 20.

As I mentioned on this newsgroup several months ago, I've been slowly
working my way through all the Hugo winning novels in chronological
order. Last month I got to 1974 and Rendezvous With Rama.

I had previously read it decades ago, probably sometime in the late
1980s or early 90s. I distinctly remembered a scene where the group
exploring Rama found a circular object, measured its circumference and
radius and determined that it had a different value of pi (i.e. not
3.14159etc).

But my current re-read turned up no such scene. I even slogged my way
through the three Gentry Lee sequels, and it's not in those either.

So anyone know where I might have read that? There's a tiny chance
that my brain took a joke from the Simpsons where Professor Frink is
trying to get the attention of a group of unruly scientists and shouts
out "Gentleman, pi is exactly three!" and convinced itself that I had
read it in a book. But I'm almost sure that I actually did read such
a scene somewhere.

-- Bob

[a***@msn.com]

You're probably thinking of Greg Bear's Eon; in that book, during an exploration of a cylindrical structure reminiscent of Rama, a pi-measuring device is used.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

Post by a***@msn.com
You're probably thinking of Greg Bear's Eon; in that book, during an exploration of a cylindrical structure reminiscent of Rama, a pi-measuring device is used.

That's the one I was going to suggest.

I have a vague memory that one is mentioned as part of the 'what the
heck is this universe then' kit in _The Number of the Beast_ but I can't
find it on a quick flick through.

Cheers - Jaimie

[Bice]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 17:08:45 +0000, Jaimie Vandenbergh

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh

Post by a***@msn.com
You're probably thinking of Greg Bear's Eon; in that book, during an
exploration of a cylindrical structure reminiscent of Rama, a
pi-measuring device is used.

That's the one I was going to suggest.

That's probably it. I read Eon about four or five years ago. I was
thinking this pi thing was something that I'd read decades ago, but
like I said my memory is crap. It could easily be Eon that I'm
thinking of.

Thanks.

-- Bob

[a***@msn.com]

Post by Bice
Thanks.

Happy to help.

[a***@msn.com]

In Greg Bear's Eon, there's a pi-measuring device.

[a***@msn.com]

Sorry about the duplicate response.

[Robert Carnegie]

Pi is 3 in Bob Shaw's _The Ragged Astronauts_, which I think
I've complained about before - specifically the pi thing,
though I also found the monsters very unpleasant. Pi isn't
a choice, and it bothers me when a story says that it is.
Another story, in a twentieth century setting, has a character
making their computer search in digits of pi for a message
from God. And I think Star Trek's _Memory Prime_ has a
community of super-computers that happen to have worked out
several interesting facts that they weren't asked for and
haven't told their human associates, one being that their
pi is eventually a repeating decimal.

I wonder if <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_π>
will link since the last symbol of the URL is the letter pi.
This shows that a deceptively simple formula with no geometry
produces the exact value of pi... gradually! So there isn't
really room to change it - although Jesus had an interesting
way with math if you gave him enough small loaves and fish
to work with.

[Steve Dodds]

Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is 3 in Bob Shaw's _The Ragged Astronauts_, which I think
I've complained about before - specifically the pi thing,
though I also found the monsters very unpleasant. Pi isn't
a choice, and it bothers me when a story says that it is.
Another story, in a twentieth century setting, has a character
making their computer search in digits of pi for a message
from God. And I think Star Trek's _Memory Prime_ has a
community of super-computers that happen to have worked out
several interesting facts that they weren't asked for and
haven't told their human associates, one being that their
pi is eventually a repeating decimal.
I wonder if <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_π>
will link since the last symbol of the URL is the letter pi.
This shows that a deceptively simple formula with no geometry
produces the exact value of pi... gradually! So there isn't
really room to change it - although Jesus had an interesting
way with math if you gave him enough small loaves and fish
to work with.

The message from God thing was from Contact by Carl Sagen. They had a
computer calculate PI after a while it started spitting out 1 and 0's.
When graphed made a perfect circle.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is 3 in Bob Shaw's _The Ragged Astronauts_, which I think
I've complained about before - specifically the pi thing,
though I also found the monsters very unpleasant. Pi isn't
a choice, and it bothers me when a story says that it is.

Except when it's close enough for government work^H^H^H^H^H^H^H...
estimating. If I'm making a garment and I know what I want the circumference of
the neckline to be, and I need to find the radius to set the
compass to, I calculate pi-D for pi=3, halve D, and it's close
enough.

You'll recall the story of some dumb State legislature that
wanted to make pi=3 official; fortunately it was shot down. They
were going by the Biblical description of a fbason" (a vat of
some kind) that was ten cubits across and had thirty decorative
"bosses" on its rim, each a cubit from the next. That equates to
pi=3, but when it's something that size (a cubit is the length of a
man's forearm from elbow to fingertip), that's close enough.

Modern engineers, making a ballpark estimate, use pi=3 before
they get down to the actual design, where they have to be more
accurate.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Another story, in a twentieth century setting, has a character
making their computer search in digits of pi for a message
from God.

Yeah, that was Sagan's novel, I forget its title [Hal has just
told me it was _Contact_]. You got down into the zillionth digit
and it formed a circle on the printout. Cute, but tongue-in-cheek.

Post by Robert Carnegie
And I think Star Trek's _Memory Prime_ has a
community of super-computers that happen to have worked out
several interesting facts that they weren't asked for and
haven't told their human associates, one being that their
pi is eventually a repeating decimal.

That would knock a lot of socks off, yes. I never saw/read that
one.

Post by Robert Carnegie
I wonder if <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_π>
will link since the last symbol of the URL is the letter pi.
This shows that a deceptively simple formula with no geometry
produces the exact value of pi... gradually!

Hey, you build your vat approximately 10 cubits across, and you
take your 30 bosses and lay them out till they look symmetrical
to the Mark 1 eyeball, and then weld them on. When my daughter
was small, I made her a gown with daisies ~evenly spaced around
the hem. I stuck pins in the hem, and moved them here and there
till they *looked* even, and then started embroidering.

Post by Robert Carnegie
So there isn't
really room to change it - although Jesus had an interesting
way with math if you gave him enough small loaves and fish
to work with.

And supernatural powers. Any theist will argue that g/God made
the laws of nature in the first place, and caused grain and fish
to be fruitful and multiply on their own hook; this time he just
did it manually.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is 3 in Bob Shaw's _The Ragged Astronauts_, which I think
I've complained about before - specifically the pi thing,
though I also found the monsters very unpleasant. Pi isn't
a choice, and it bothers me when a story says that it is.

Except when it's close enough for government work^H^H^H^H^H^H^H...
estimating. If I'm making a garment and I know what I want the circumference of
the neckline to be, and I need to find the radius to set the
compass to, I calculate pi-D for pi=3, halve D, and it's close
enough.
You'll recall the story of some dumb State legislature that
wanted to make pi=3 official; fortunately it was shot down. They
were going by the Biblical description of a fbason" (a vat of
some kind) that was ten cubits across and had thirty decorative
"bosses" on its rim, each a cubit from the next. That equates to
pi=3, but when it's something that size (a cubit is the length of a
man's forearm from elbow to fingertip), that's close enough.

Where does that appear in the Bible? The only description I can find
says that it was ten cubits in diameter and a line 30 meters long
could be passed around it. Not all versions of the Bible mention the
line.

It was pointed out way back in Rabbinical history that the rim was a
"handsbreadth" in width and if you assume that the ancient Hebrews
would have as much trouble as we do keeping the rope on the rim and
instead passed it around underneath the rim, the numbers actually work
out pretty close.

Further, the only serious attempt to enact any legislation regarding
pi that I can find is the famous one in Indiana, which has absolutely
nothing to do with the Bible and everything to do with a crackpot who
was convinced that he had found a way to square the circle and managed
to get a bunch of legislators to support legislating his method.

According to Snopes there was a story started as an April Fool joke
that Alabama was trying to legislate Pi but that's all it was, an
April Fool joke, that would have gained no traction at all if it had
not been started by someone at the Associated Press.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Modern engineers, making a ballpark estimate, use pi=3 before
they get down to the actual design, where they have to be more
accurate.

Depends on what we're measuring. If we're pouring concrete with a
hole in it we might assume 3, if we're pouring a column we might
assume 4--in each case our first guess of the amount of concrete
required is high so no idiot manager goes of lowballing.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Robert Carnegie
Another story, in a twentieth century setting, has a character
making their computer search in digits of pi for a message
from God.

Yeah, that was Sagan's novel, I forget its title [Hal has just
told me it was _Contact_]. You got down into the zillionth digit
and it formed a circle on the printout. Cute, but tongue-in-cheek.

Post by Robert Carnegie
And I think Star Trek's _Memory Prime_ has a
community of super-computers that happen to have worked out
several interesting facts that they weren't asked for and
haven't told their human associates, one being that their
pi is eventually a repeating decimal.

That would knock a lot of socks off, yes. I never saw/read that
one.

Post by Robert Carnegie
I wonder if <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_?>
will link since the last symbol of the URL is the letter pi.
This shows that a deceptively simple formula with no geometry
produces the exact value of pi... gradually!

Hey, you build your vat approximately 10 cubits across, and you
take your 30 bosses and lay them out till they look symmetrical
to the Mark 1 eyeball, and then weld them on. When my daughter
was small, I made her a gown with daisies ~evenly spaced around
the hem. I stuck pins in the hem, and moved them here and there
till they *looked* even, and then started embroidering.

Post by Robert Carnegie
So there isn't
really room to change it - although Jesus had an interesting
way with math if you gave him enough small loaves and fish
to work with.

And supernatural powers. Any theist will argue that g/God made
the laws of nature in the first place, and caused grain and fish
to be fruitful and multiply on their own hook; this time he just
did it manually.

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is 3 in Bob Shaw's _The Ragged Astronauts_, which I think
I've complained about before - specifically the pi thing,
though I also found the monsters very unpleasant. Pi isn't
a choice, and it bothers me when a story says that it is.

You'll recall the story of some dumb State legislature that
wanted to make pi=3 official; fortunately it was shot down.

Further, the only serious attempt to enact any legislation regarding
pi that I can find is the famous one in Indiana, which has absolutely
nothing to do with the Bible and everything to do with a crackpot who
was convinced that he had found a way to square the circle and managed
to get a bunch of legislators to support legislating his method.

You can get more details in:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_Pi>

Apparently, the crackpot's writeup was so incoherent that it could be
read as supporting 3, 4, and others.

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:22:30 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Apparently, the crackpot's writeup was so incoherent that it could be
read as supporting 3, 4, and others.

Pi is 4 when you are knitting from the middle out.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Joy Beeson
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:22:30 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Apparently, the crackpot's writeup was so incoherent that it could be
read as supporting 3, 4, and others.

Pi is 4 when you are knitting from the middle out.

/thinks

Right.

[David DeLaney]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Joy Beeson
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:22:30 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Apparently, the crackpot's writeup was so incoherent that it could be
read as supporting 3, 4, and others.

Pi is 4 when you are knitting from the middle out.

/thinks
Right.

Pi is 3 when you're crocheting a hexagonal afghan.

Dave, and it wouldn't lay flat, so q.e.d.

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by David DeLaney

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Joy Beeson
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:22:30 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Apparently, the crackpot's writeup was so incoherent that it could be
read as supporting 3, 4, and others.

Pi is 4 when you are knitting from the middle out.

/thinks
Right.

Pi is 3 when you're crocheting a hexagonal afghan.
Dave, and it wouldn't lay flat, so q.e.d.

Speaking of hyperbolic crochet:

[Robert Carnegie]

The round thing in the bible could be oval, as far as I can tell.
But religious apologists, as they're called, don't have that amongst
their various explanations, possibly because it doesn't allow you
to deny that the original statement is in any way peculiar.
A flavour of anti-scepticism that probably contributed, a bit,
to my eventually abandoning religious belief.

Another interpretation that fits the context, I think, is that
the object never existed but is being included in an insurance
claim after the first destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
The redundant measurements possibly are on the insurance form...

How does salt lose its savour anyway? Sodium chloride isn't
transmuted to a different substance in everyday use. And if it
is, then it isn't much good for clearing paths, either.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Robert Carnegie
The round thing in the bible could be oval, as far as I can tell.
But religious apologists, as they're called, don't have that amongst
their various explanations, possibly because it doesn't allow you
to deny that the original statement is in any way peculiar.
A flavour of anti-scepticism that probably contributed, a bit,
to my eventually abandoning religious belief.
Another interpretation that fits the context, I think, is that
the object never existed but is being included in an insurance
claim after the first destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
The redundant measurements possibly are on the insurance form...

Heh.

Post by Robert Carnegie
How does salt lose its savour anyway? Sodium chloride isn't
transmuted to a different substance in everyday use. And if it
is, then it isn't much good for clearing paths, either.

Probably by picking up impurities.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Robert Carnegie
The round thing in the bible could be oval, as far as I can tell.
But religious apologists, as they're called, don't have that amongst
their various explanations, possibly because it doesn't allow you
to deny that the original statement is in any way peculiar.
A flavour of anti-scepticism that probably contributed, a bit,
to my eventually abandoning religious belief.
Another interpretation that fits the context, I think, is that
the object never existed but is being included in an insurance
claim after the first destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
The redundant measurements possibly are on the insurance form...

Heh.

Post by Robert Carnegie
How does salt lose its savour anyway? Sodium chloride isn't
transmuted to a different substance in everyday use. And if it
is, then it isn't much good for clearing paths, either.

Probably by picking up impurities.

Googling, the likeliest bet (other than noting that it wasn't a
chemistry lesson) is the salt itself being dissolved in water, and
eventually leaving nothing but the impurities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:13

[D B Davis]

Post by Joe Pfeiffer

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Robert Carnegie
The round thing in the bible could be oval, as far as I can tell.
But religious apologists, as they're called, don't have that amongst
their various explanations, possibly because it doesn't allow you
to deny that the original statement is in any way peculiar.
A flavour of anti-scepticism that probably contributed, a bit,
to my eventually abandoning religious belief.
Another interpretation that fits the context, I think, is that
the object never existed but is being included in an insurance
claim after the first destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
The redundant measurements possibly are on the insurance form...

Heh.

Post by Robert Carnegie
How does salt lose its savour anyway? Sodium chloride isn't
transmuted to a different substance in everyday use. And if it
is, then it isn't much good for clearing paths, either.

Probably by picking up impurities.

Googling, the likeliest bet (other than noting that it wasn't a
chemistry lesson) is the salt itself being dissolved in water, and
eventually leaving nothing but the impurities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:13

Dissolution's first definition involves the breakdown of minerals such
as salt. Its second definition concerns debauched living.
Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that talks
about ?fbason? ?

✍

Thank you,

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by D B Davis

Post by Joe Pfeiffer

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Robert Carnegie
The round thing in the bible could be oval, as far as I can tell.
But religious apologists, as they're called, don't have that amongst
their various explanations, possibly because it doesn't allow you
to deny that the original statement is in any way peculiar.
A flavour of anti-scepticism that probably contributed, a bit,
to my eventually abandoning religious belief.
Another interpretation that fits the context, I think, is that
the object never existed but is being included in an insurance
claim after the first destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
The redundant measurements possibly are on the insurance form...

Heh.

Post by Robert Carnegie
How does salt lose its savour anyway? Sodium chloride isn't
transmuted to a different substance in everyday use. And if it
is, then it isn't much good for clearing paths, either.

Probably by picking up impurities.

Googling, the likeliest bet (other than noting that it wasn't a
chemistry lesson) is the salt itself being dissolved in water, and
eventually leaving nothing but the impurities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:13

Dissolution's first definition involves the breakdown of minerals such
as salt. Its second definition concerns debauched living.
Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that talks
about ?fbason? ?
✍
Thank you,
--
Don

I'm seeing "fbason".

I put it into ROT13 code.

That's "sonfba".

Odd.

Do you mean "the last shall be first and vice versa"?

Fun math thing: 0.142857 (or 142857) times a number between
2 and 6 presents the same digits In the same order but with
a different start. This is related to the fact that 1/7 is
0.142857142857142857 etc.

[D B Davis]

<snip>

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by D B Davis
Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that talks
about ?fbason? ?

I'm seeing "fbason".
I put it into ROT13 code.
That's "sonfba".
Odd.
Do you mean "the last shall be first and vice versa"?
Fun math thing: 0.142857 (or 142857) times a number between
2 and 6 presents the same digits In the same order but with
a different start. This is related to the fact that 1/7 is
0.142857142857142857 etc.

??? Your followup doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

✍

Thank you,

[D B Davis]

Post by D B Davis
<snip>

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by D B Davis
Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that talks
about ?fbason? ?

I'm seeing "fbason".
I put it into ROT13 code.
That's "sonfba".
Odd.
Do you mean "the last shall be first and vice versa"?
Fun math thing: 0.142857 (or 142857) times a number between
2 and 6 presents the same digits In the same order but with
a different start. This is related to the fact that 1/7 is
0.142857142857142857 etc.

??? Your followup doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Actually, on second thought, your followup sort of makes sense. It
reminds me of a google answer. Although a google answer can contain
interesting tidbits it often leaves the researcher, the guy who asks the
question, to wonder, "WTF did all that come from?"
But, it's all good. Did you ever hear the old Microsoft joke about
a lost helicopter in Seattle on a cloudy and hazy day?

http://alunthomasevans.blogspot.com/2007/10/old-microsoft-joke.html

✍

Thank you,

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by D B Davis

Post by D B Davis
<snip>

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by D B Davis
Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that talks
about ?fbason? ?

I'm seeing "fbason".
I put it into ROT13 code.
That's "sonfba".
Odd.
Do you mean "the last shall be first and vice versa"?
Fun math thing: 0.142857 (or 142857) times a number between
2 and 6 presents the same digits In the same order but with
a different start. This is related to the fact that 1/7 is
0.142857142857142857 etc.

??? Your followup doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Actually, on second thought, your followup sort of makes sense. It
reminds me of a google answer. Although a google answer can contain
interesting tidbits it often leaves the researcher, the guy who asks the
question, to wonder, "WTF did all that come from?"
But, it's all good. Did you ever hear the old Microsoft joke about
a lost helicopter in Seattle on a cloudy and hazy day?
http://alunthomasevans.blogspot.com/2007/10/old-microsoft-joke.html

I heard, or read it about IBM.

Can I just check again whether you intended to ask:

"Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that
talks about ?fbason? ?"

Because that's what I saw.

If that's in a bible in English, I think it's a misprint -
less controversial than "Thou shalt commit adultery", but puzzling.
But if it's in the original Klingon language, who knows.

[D B Davis]

Robert Carnegie <***@excite.com> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Robert Carnegie
"Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that
talks about ?fbason? ?"
Because that's what I saw.
If that's in a bible in English, I think it's a misprint -
less controversial than "Thou shalt commit adultery", but puzzling.
But if it's in the original Klingon language, who knows.

Upthread Dorothy told a story about scripturists who wanted to make a
law that proclaimed pi equal to three. This desire supposedly originated
with a Biblical verse. IIRC "fbason" got mentioned at the time.
Who knows? It might be an old wive's tale. If that's case it's best
avoided per 1 Tim 4:7b "avoid foolish fables and old wives' tales."

✍

Thank you,

[Sjouke Burry]

Post by D B Davis
<snip>

Post by Robert Carnegie
"Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that
talks about ?fbason? ?"
Because that's what I saw.
If that's in a bible in English, I think it's a misprint -
less controversial than "Thou shalt commit adultery", but puzzling.
But if it's in the original Klingon language, who knows.

Upthread Dorothy told a story about scripturists who wanted to make a
law that proclaimed pi equal to three. This desire supposedly originated
with a Biblical verse. IIRC "fbason" got mentioned at the time.
Who knows? It might be an old wive's tale. If that's case it's best
avoided per 1 Tim 4:7b "avoid foolish fables and old wives' tales."
✍
Thank you,

That effectively denounces all of the bible.....

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by D B Davis
<snip>

Post by Robert Carnegie
"Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that
talks about ?fbason? ?"
Because that's what I saw.
If that's in a bible in English, I think it's a misprint -
less controversial than "Thou shalt commit adultery", but
puzzling. But if it's in the original Klingon language, who
knows.

Upthread Dorothy told a story about scripturists who wanted to
make a law that proclaimed pi equal to three. This desire
supposedly originated with a Biblical verse. IIRC "fbason" got
mentioned at the time.
Who knows? It might be an old wive's tale. If that's case
it's best
avoided per 1 Tim 4:7b "avoid foolish fables and old wives'
tales."

As mentioned above, it had nothing to do with religion, on with a
wingnut amateur mathematician (who apparently wanted to get
royalties on his "revolutionary" discovery).

The House introduced the bill, and at one point referred it to the
Committee on Swamplands, then passed it.

The Senate, however, was advised by an actual mathematician, and
spend a half an hour making bad puns about it, before tabling in
indefinitely. Mostly, apparently, because major newspapers were
already making fun of *them* for even considering it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill

Blaming it on religious wingnuts says far more about about bias of
the person doing teh blaming than the bill, or religious wingnuts.
None of it complimentary.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[D B Davis]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by D B Davis
<snip>

Post by Robert Carnegie
"Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that
talks about ?fbason? ?"
Because that's what I saw.
If that's in a bible in English, I think it's a misprint -
less controversial than "Thou shalt commit adultery", but
puzzling. But if it's in the original Klingon language, who
knows.

Upthread Dorothy told a story about scripturists who wanted to
make a law that proclaimed pi equal to three. This desire
supposedly originated with a Biblical verse. IIRC "fbason" got
mentioned at the time.
Who knows? It might be an old wive's tale. If that's case
it's best
avoided per 1 Tim 4:7b "avoid foolish fables and old wives'
tales."

As mentioned above, it had nothing to do with religion, on with a
wingnut amateur mathematician (who apparently wanted to get
royalties on his "revolutionary" discovery).
The House introduced the bill, and at one point referred it to the
Committee on Swamplands, then passed it.
The Senate, however, was advised by an actual mathematician, and
spend a half an hour making bad puns about it, before tabling in
indefinitely. Mostly, apparently, because major newspapers were
already making fun of *them* for even considering it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill
Blaming it on religious wingnuts says far more about about bias of
the person doing teh blaming than the bill, or religious wingnuts.
None of it complimentary.

Scientific wingnut innate insanity ironically scapegoats the Bible, in a
manner of speaking.

✍

Thank you,

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by D B Davis
<snip>

Post by Robert Carnegie
"Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that
talks about ?fbason? ?"
Because that's what I saw.
If that's in a bible in English, I think it's a misprint -
less controversial than "Thou shalt commit adultery", but puzzling.
But if it's in the original Klingon language, who knows.

Upthread Dorothy told a story about scripturists who wanted to make a
law that proclaimed pi equal to three. This desire supposedly originated
with a Biblical verse. IIRC "fbason" got mentioned at the time.
Who knows? It might be an old wive's tale. If that's case it's best
avoided per 1 Tim 4:7b "avoid foolish fables and old wives' tales."

It's a typo. The word was "bason" (17th century variant of
"basin") and the [f] got in somehow.

[D B Davis]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by D B Davis
<snip>

Post by Robert Carnegie
"Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that
talks about ?fbason? ?"
Because that's what I saw.
If that's in a bible in English, I think it's a misprint -
less controversial than "Thou shalt commit adultery", but puzzling.
But if it's in the original Klingon language, who knows.

Upthread Dorothy told a story about scripturists who wanted to make a
law that proclaimed pi equal to three. This desire supposedly originated
with a Biblical verse. IIRC "fbason" got mentioned at the time.
Who knows? It might be an old wive's tale. If that's case it's best
avoided per 1 Tim 4:7b "avoid foolish fables and old wives' tales."

It's a typo. The word was "bason" (17th century variant of
"basin") and the [f] got in somehow.

A Torah website [1] argues that the absence of Biblical irrationality is
due to "the sages [who] were uncertain if the word kav were masculine or
feminine so they wrote it one way and read it another."
The word kav brings to mind gematriot, which in turn brings to mind
_Perry Rhodan_'s immortals. Immortal "language consists of pictorial
symbols, geometrical signs and strange characters. Besides, it is
composed in a complicated code, which can be intrepreted only by the
positronic brain."

Note.

1. http://daatemet.org.il/en/torah-science-ethics/scientific-errors-in-torah/what-the-sages-knew-about-pi/

✍

Thank you,

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by Robert Carnegie
"Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that
talks about ?fbason? ?"

I would guess that's a munging of "basin". The passage in question is:

<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+7%3A23&version=NIV>

[D B Davis]

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Robert Carnegie
"Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that
talks about ?fbason? ?"

<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+7%3A23&version=NIV>

You're a good man. This is very interesting. My Catholic Bible printed
in 1951 contains the pertinent passage in III Kings 7:23.

23 He made also a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to
brim, round all about; the height of it was five cubits, and
a line of thirty cubits compassed it round about.

✍

Thank you,

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by D B Davis

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Robert Carnegie
"Can anyone cite the Biblical book, chapter, and verse that
talks about ?fbason? ?"

<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+7%3A23&version=NIV>

You're a good man. This is very interesting. My Catholic Bible printed
in 1951 contains the pertinent passage in III Kings 7:23.
23 He made also a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to
brim, round all about; the height of it was five cubits, and
a line of thirty cubits compassed it round about.

Presumably that would be the Douay translation of the Old
Testament. Following Ruth, it has
1 Kings
2 Kings
3 Kings
4 Kings
1 Paralipomenen
2 Paralipomenen

Newer translations that Douay title these books as
1 Samuel
2 Samuel
1 Kings
2 Kings
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles

So the "1 Kings" that I pointed to corresponds to the "3 Kings"
you mentioned.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Joe Pfeiffer

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Robert Carnegie
The round thing in the bible could be oval, as far as I can tell.
But religious apologists, as they're called, don't have that amongst
their various explanations, possibly because it doesn't allow you
to deny that the original statement is in any way peculiar.
A flavour of anti-scepticism that probably contributed, a bit,
to my eventually abandoning religious belief.
Another interpretation that fits the context, I think, is that
the object never existed but is being included in an insurance
claim after the first destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
The redundant measurements possibly are on the insurance form...

Heh.

Post by Robert Carnegie
How does salt lose its savour anyway? Sodium chloride isn't
transmuted to a different substance in everyday use. And if it
is, then it isn't much good for clearing paths, either.

Probably by picking up impurities.

Googling, the likeliest bet (other than noting that it wasn't a
chemistry lesson) is the salt itself being dissolved in water, and
eventually leaving nothing but the impurities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:13

Or instead just acquiring enough additional impurities to mask its taste.

Anyways, in the Bible quote in question, it's strictly presented as a
hypothetical to illustrate a point, so Biblical inerrancy is not threatened by
that being impossible.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 07:31:59 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
The round thing in the bible could be oval, as far as I can tell.
But religious apologists, as they're called, don't have that amongst
their various explanations, possibly because it doesn't allow you
to deny that the original statement is in any way peculiar.
A flavour of anti-scepticism that probably contributed, a bit,
to my eventually abandoning religious belief.
Another interpretation that fits the context, I think, is that
the object never existed but is being included in an insurance
claim after the first destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
The redundant measurements possibly are on the insurance form...

While this has a certain humor, most insurance policies exclude "acts
of war"--the insurance companies really _don't_ want to be responsible
for such activities as rebuilding Dresden after the firestorm.

Post by Robert Carnegie
How does salt lose its savour anyway? Sodium chloride isn't
transmuted to a different substance in everyday use. And if it
is, then it isn't much good for clearing paths, either.

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 07:31:59 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
The round thing in the bible could be oval, as far as I can tell.
But religious apologists, as they're called, don't have that amongst
their various explanations, possibly because it doesn't allow you
to deny that the original statement is in any way peculiar.
A flavour of anti-scepticism that probably contributed, a bit,
to my eventually abandoning religious belief.
Another interpretation that fits the context, I think, is that
the object never existed but is being included in an insurance
claim after the first destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
The redundant measurements possibly are on the insurance form...

While this has a certain humor, most insurance policies exclude "acts
of war"--the insurance companies really _don't_ want to be responsible
for such activities as rebuilding Dresden after the firestorm.

True, but war reparations (which probably don't really apply
to my case either) are less funny.

[J. Clarke]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 01:41:57 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 07:31:59 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
The round thing in the bible could be oval, as far as I can tell.
But religious apologists, as they're called, don't have that amongst
their various explanations, possibly because it doesn't allow you
to deny that the original statement is in any way peculiar.
A flavour of anti-scepticism that probably contributed, a bit,
to my eventually abandoning religious belief.
Another interpretation that fits the context, I think, is that
the object never existed but is being included in an insurance
claim after the first destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
The redundant measurements possibly are on the insurance form...

While this has a certain humor, most insurance policies exclude "acts
of war"--the insurance companies really _don't_ want to be responsible
for such activities as rebuilding Dresden after the firestorm.

True, but war reparations (which probably don't really apply
to my case either) are less funny.

Since the location in question was successfully conquered in a time
when conquerors didn't give back what they conquered after the
fighting was over,, there were no "war reparations". The conquerors
took whatever they felt like taking and kept it until someone else
conquered _them_.

[D B Davis]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is 3 in Bob Shaw's _The Ragged Astronauts_, which I think
I've complained about before - specifically the pi thing,
though I also found the monsters very unpleasant. Pi isn't
a choice, and it bothers me when a story says that it is.

Except when it's close enough for government work^H^H^H^H^H^H^H...
estimating. If I'm making a garment and I know what I want the circumference of
the neckline to be, and I need to find the radius to set the
compass to, I calculate pi-D for pi=3, halve D, and it's close
enough.
You'll recall the story of some dumb State legislature that
wanted to make pi=3 official; fortunately it was shot down. They
were going by the Biblical description of a fbason" (a vat of
some kind) that was ten cubits across and had thirty decorative
"bosses" on its rim, each a cubit from the next. That equates to
pi=3, but when it's something that size (a cubit is the length of a
man's forearm from elbow to fingertip), that's close enough.
Modern engineers, making a ballpark estimate, use pi=3 before
they get down to the actual design, where they have to be more
accurate.

Close enough for pie, you might say.

✍

Thank you,

[Jay E. Morris]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hey, you build your vat approximately 10 cubits across, and you
take your 30 bosses and lay them out till they look symmetrical
to the Mark 1 eyeball, and then weld them on. When my daughter
was small, I made her a gown with daisies ~evenly spaced around
the hem. I stuck pins in the hem, and moved them here and there
till they*looked* even, and then started embroidering.

First go through on this I was thinking I was lucky never to have had
that many bosses at one time but there were some I'd be happy to weld to
something.

[J. Clarke]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:37:10 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is 3 in Bob Shaw's _The Ragged Astronauts_, which I think
I've complained about before - specifically the pi thing,
though I also found the monsters very unpleasant. Pi isn't
a choice, and it bothers me when a story says that it is.
Another story, in a twentieth century setting, has a character
making their computer search in digits of pi for a message
from God.

That has always interested me as a concept. Go enough digits in and
you should find something that _looks_ like that. What would be
impressive would be if it came in different languages with an index
and told where to find the same message in e.

Post by Robert Carnegie
And I think Star Trek's _Memory Prime_ has a
community of super-computers that happen to have worked out
several interesting facts that they weren't asked for and
haven't told their human associates, one being that their
pi is eventually a repeating decimal.
I wonder if <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_?>
will link since the last symbol of the URL is the letter pi.
This shows that a deceptively simple formula with no geometry
produces the exact value of pi... gradually! So there isn't
really room to change it - although Jesus had an interesting
way with math if you gave him enough small loaves and fish
to work with.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:37:10 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is 3 in Bob Shaw's _The Ragged Astronauts_, which I think
I've complained about before - specifically the pi thing,
though I also found the monsters very unpleasant. Pi isn't
a choice, and it bothers me when a story says that it is.
Another story, in a twentieth century setting, has a character
making their computer search in digits of pi for a message
from God.

That has always interested me as a concept. Go enough digits in and
you should find something that _looks_ like that. What would be
impressive would be if it came in different languages with an index
and told where to find the same message in e.

Why would that be impressive? As with pi, every finite string of bits is
in there *someplace*.

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie
And I think Star Trek's _Memory Prime_ has a
community of super-computers that happen to have worked out
several interesting facts that they weren't asked for and
haven't told their human associates, one being that their
pi is eventually a repeating decimal.
I wonder if <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_?>
will link since the last symbol of the URL is the letter pi.
This shows that a deceptively simple formula with no geometry
produces the exact value of pi... gradually! So there isn't
really room to change it - although Jesus had an interesting
way with math if you gave him enough small loaves and fish
to work with.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Why would that be impressive? As with pi, every finite string of bits is
in there *someplace*.

Although pi has been proven transcendental, it has not been proven to be normal,
so we're not really sure of that.

But I should think the answer to your question, even were pi normal, as we do
expect, is obvious. If a string of 10,000 digits having a very striking pattern
is found after only a few billion digits of pi, as opposed to something that is
a reasonable fraction of 10^10,000 digits of pi, something very improbable has
happened.

John Savard

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Why would that be impressive? As with pi, every finite string of bits is
in there *someplace*.

Although pi has been proven transcendental, it has not been proven to be normal,
so we're not really sure of that.
But I should think the answer to your question, even were pi normal, as we do
expect, is obvious. If a string of 10,000 digits having a very striking pattern
is found after only a few billion digits of pi, as opposed to something that is
a reasonable fraction of 10^10,000 digits of pi, something very improbable has
happened.
John Savard

I say again, pi isn't random...

...although calculating it as a base ten "decimal" is, slightly.
We use base ten apparently because we have ten digits to count with,
and that may be accidental... of inevitable. In TV sci-fi all the
aliens have ten digits, pretty much... except Zaphod Beeblebrox.

[a***@msn.com]

If I recall correctly, in Sagan's Contact, the unusual pattern in pi turned up only in base-11.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Robert Carnegie
I say again, pi isn't random...

No, since the value of pi is strictly determined. But the digits, except for
having the property of being the successive digits of the decimal expansion of pi,
appear to have all the statistical properties of a random sequence. So they're
random-like, or pseudorandom.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 19:55:05 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer

Post by Joe Pfeiffer

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:37:10 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is 3 in Bob Shaw's _The Ragged Astronauts_, which I think
I've complained about before - specifically the pi thing,
though I also found the monsters very unpleasant. Pi isn't
a choice, and it bothers me when a story says that it is.
Another story, in a twentieth century setting, has a character
making their computer search in digits of pi for a message
from God.

That has always interested me as a concept. Go enough digits in and
you should find something that _looks_ like that. What would be
impressive would be if it came in different languages with an index
and told where to find the same message in e.

Why would that be impressive? As with pi, every finite string of bits is
in there *someplace*.

So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English,
(b) has an index showing where in Pi to find the same message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili, Nahuatl, and
every other language, with all of the indices being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be found

I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

Post by Joe Pfeiffer

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie
And I think Star Trek's _Memory Prime_ has a
community of super-computers that happen to have worked out
several interesting facts that they weren't asked for and
haven't told their human associates, one being that their
pi is eventually a repeating decimal.
I wonder if <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_?>
will link since the last symbol of the URL is the letter pi.
This shows that a deceptively simple formula with no geometry
produces the exact value of pi... gradually! So there isn't
really room to change it - although Jesus had an interesting
way with math if you gave him enough small loaves and fish
to work with.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 19:55:05 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer

Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Why would that be impressive? As with pi, every finite string of bits is
in there *someplace*.

So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English,
(b) has an index showing where in Pi to find the same message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili, Nahuatl, and
every other language, with all of the indices being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

To infinity, in fact.

[Quadibloc]

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English,
(b) has an index showing where in Pi to find the same message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili, Nahuatl, and
every other language, with all of the indices being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all those things, if pi
is normal, without it being in the least remarkable.

However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able to calculate pi to
enough digits to see those things would require a computer larger than the whole
universe.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English,
(b) has an index showing where in Pi to find the same message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili, Nahuatl, and
every other language, with all of the indices being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all those things, if pi
is normal, without it being in the least remarkable.
However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able to calculate pi to
enough digits to see those things would require a computer larger than the whole
universe.

How do you know how large a computer it would take? And no, I don't
buy that the multiple indexing would occur in random values of _any_
length.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 6:56:21 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English,
(b) has an index showing where in Pi to find the same
message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili,
Nahuatl, and every other language, with all of the indices
being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all
those things, if pi is normal, without it being in the least
remarkable.
However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able to
calculate pi to enough digits to see those things would require
a computer larger than the whole universe.

How do you know how large a computer it would take? And no, I
don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur in random
values of _any_ length.

If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things _must_
be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of those two
things. However, so far, we have only calculated less than three
trillion digits, which is a trifle compared to infinity.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Peter Trei]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 6:56:21 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English,
(b) has an index showing where in Pi to find the same
message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili,
Nahuatl, and every other language, with all of the indices
being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all
those things, if pi is normal, without it being in the least
remarkable.
However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able to
calculate pi to enough digits to see those things would require
a computer larger than the whole universe.

How do you know how large a computer it would take? And no, I
don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur in random
values of _any_ length.

If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things _must_
be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of those two
things. However, so far, we have only calculated less than three
trillion digits, which is a trifle compared to infinity.

At 3 trillion decimal digits, there's around a 50% probability of
containing any given string of bits up to 41 bits long (I await
correction).

pt

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 6:56:21 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English,
(b) has an index showing where in Pi to find the same message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili,
Nahuatl, and every other language, with all of the indices
being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be
found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all
those things, if pi is normal, without it being in the least
remarkable.
However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able
to calculate pi to enough digits to see those things would
require a computer larger than the whole universe.

How do you know how large a computer it would take? And no,
I don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur in random
values of _any_ length.

If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things
_must_ be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of
those two things. However, so far, we have only calculated less
than three trillion digits, which is a trifle compared to
infinity.

At 3 trillion decimal digits, there's around a 50% probability
of containing any given string of bits up to 41 bits long (I
await correction).

41 bits is less than six characters in ASCII.

I'm a bit skeptical that even an all powerful, all knowing deity
could implant much of an earth-shattering message in five and a
half letters.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Kevrob]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English,
(b) has an index showing where in Pi to find the same message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili,
Nahuatl, and every other language, with all of the indices
being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be
found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all
those things, if pi is normal, without it being in the least
remarkable.
However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able
to calculate pi to enough digits to see those things would
require a computer larger than the whole universe.

How do you know how large a computer it would take? And no,
I don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur in random
values of _any_ length.

If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things
_must_ be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of
those two things. However, so far, we have only calculated less
than three trillion digits, which is a trifle compared to
infinity.

At 3 trillion decimal digits, there's around a 50% probability
of containing any given string of bits up to 41 bits long (I
await correction).

41 bits is less than six characters in ASCII.
I'm a bit skeptical that even an all powerful, all knowing deity
could implant much of an earth-shattering message in five and a
half letters.
--

It would be more, but biblical Hebrew doesn't include the vowels,
just punctuation marks. :)

Kevin R

[J. Clarke]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English,
(b) has an index showing where in Pi to find the same message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili,
Nahuatl, and every other language, with all of the indices
being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all
those things, if pi is normal, without it being in the least
remarkable.
However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able
to calculate pi to enough digits to see those things would
require a computer larger than the whole universe.

How do you know how large a computer it would take? And no,
I don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur in random
values of _any_ length.

If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things
_must_ be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of
those two things. However, so far, we have only calculated less
than three trillion digits, which is a trifle compared to
infinity.

At 3 trillion decimal digits, there's around a 50% probability
of containing any given string of bits up to 41 bits long (I
await correction).

41 bits is less than six characters in ASCII.
I'm a bit skeptical that even an all powerful, all knowing deity
could implant much of an earth-shattering message in five and a
half letters.
--

It would be more, but biblical Hebrew doesn't include the vowels,
just punctuation marks. :)

Read what I wrote. It not only has to contain the message. It has to
contain it in many languages, with each one indexing all the others
(which implies that there are no other copies of the text that are not
indexed) and also indexing them in the digits of e.

While I did not state it I assumed that one would also infer that the
indexing goes the other way as well, with the passages in e indexing
the ones in pi.

Post by Kevrob
Kevin R

[Kevrob]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Kevrob
It would be more, but biblical Hebrew doesn't include the vowels,
just punctuation marks. :)

Read what I wrote. It not only has to contain the message. It has to
contain it in many languages, with each one indexing all the others
(which implies that there are no other copies of the text that are not
indexed) and also indexing them in the digits of e.
While I did not state it I assumed that one would also infer that the
indexing goes the other way as well, with the passages in e indexing
the ones in pi.

Read what I wrote, namely: ":)"

As Sgt Hulka once said, "Lighten up, Francis."

Kevin R

[Quadibloc]

Post by J. Clarke
Read what I wrote. It not only has to contain the message. It has to
contain it in many languages, with each one indexing all the others
(which implies that there are no other copies of the text that are not
indexed) and also indexing them in the digits of e.

Yes, if you add the condition that there are no incorrect indexes present, it
would be remarkable.

John Savard

[Ninapenda Jibini]

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 6:25:26 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke
Read what I wrote. It not only has to contain the message. It
has to contain it in many languages, with each one indexing all
the others (which implies that there are no other copies of the
text that are not indexed) and also indexing them in the digits
of e.

Yes, if you add the condition that there are no incorrect
indexes present, it would be remarkable.

And if he had any understanding at all of what "infinite" and
"random" mean, he wouldn't sound so stupid.

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English, (b) has an
index showing where in Pi to find the same message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili,
Nahuatl, and every other language, with all of the indices
being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all
those things, if pi is normal, without it being in the least
remarkable.
However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able
to calculate pi to enough digits to see those things would require
a computer larger than the whole universe.

How do you know how large a computer it would take? And no,
I don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur in random
values of _any_ length.

If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things
_must_ be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of
those two things. However, so far, we have only calculated less
than three trillion digits, which is a trifle compared to infinity.

At 3 trillion decimal digits, there's around a 50% probability
of containing any given string of bits up to 41 bits long (I
await correction).

41 bits is less than six characters in ASCII.
I'm a bit skeptical that even an all powerful, all knowing deity
could implant much of an earth-shattering message in five and a
half letters.

Let me correct that slightly. 3 trillion bits has a 50% chance of
containing any give 41 bit string. Shorter strings are, of course
more likely.

3 trillion decimal digits is about 10 trillion bits.
At that size, you have a 50% chance of finding any 43 bit sequence.

pt

[Ninapenda Jibini]

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English, (b)
has an index showing where in Pi to find the same
message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili,
Nahuatl, and every other language, with all of the
indices being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be
found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all
those things, if pi is normal, without it being in the
least remarkable.
However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able
to calculate pi to enough digits to see those things would
require a computer larger than the whole universe.

How do you know how large a computer it would take? And
no, I don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur in
random values of _any_ length.

If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things
_must_ be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of
those two things. However, so far, we have only calculated
less than three trillion digits, which is a trifle compared
to infinity.

At 3 trillion decimal digits, there's around a 50% probability
of containing any given string of bits up to 41 bits long (I
await correction).

41 bits is less than six characters in ASCII.
I'm a bit skeptical that even an all powerful, all knowing
deity could implant much of an earth-shattering message in five
and a half letters.

Let me correct that slightly. 3 trillion bits has a 50% chance
of containing any give 41 bit string. Shorter strings are, of
course more likely.
3 trillion decimal digits is about 10 trillion bits.
At that size, you have a 50% chance of finding any 43 bit
sequence.

Which is still about five and a half characters, so, I'm still not
impressed.

[J. Clarke]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 21:47:10 -0600, Cryptoengineer

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English, (b) has an
index showing where in Pi to find the same message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili,
Nahuatl, and every other language, with all of the indices
being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all
those things, if pi is normal, without it being in the least
remarkable.
However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able
to calculate pi to enough digits to see those things would require
a computer larger than the whole universe.

How do you know how large a computer it would take? And no,
I don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur in random
values of _any_ length.

If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things
_must_ be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of
those two things. However, so far, we have only calculated less
than three trillion digits, which is a trifle compared to infinity.

At 3 trillion decimal digits, there's around a 50% probability
of containing any given string of bits up to 41 bits long (I
await correction).

41 bits is less than six characters in ASCII.
I'm a bit skeptical that even an all powerful, all knowing deity
could implant much of an earth-shattering message in five and a
half letters.

Let me correct that slightly. 3 trillion bits has a 50% chance of
containing any give 41 bit string. Shorter strings are, of course
more likely.
3 trillion decimal digits is about 10 trillion bits.
At that size, you have a 50% chance of finding any 43 bit sequence.

FWIW, wiki says that the most recent calculation of pi was to
22,459,157,718,361 digits. A 72 core Xeon machine took 105 days to do
that.

[Peter Trei]

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 21:47:10 -0600, Cryptoengineer

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English, (b) has an
index showing where in Pi to find the same message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili,
Nahuatl, and every other language, with all of the indices
being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all
those things, if pi is normal, without it being in the least
remarkable.
However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able
to calculate pi to enough digits to see those things would require
a computer larger than the whole universe.

How do you know how large a computer it would take? And no,
I don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur in random
values of _any_ length.

If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things
_must_ be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of
those two things. However, so far, we have only calculated less
than three trillion digits, which is a trifle compared to infinity.

At 3 trillion decimal digits, there's around a 50% probability
of containing any given string of bits up to 41 bits long (I
await correction).

41 bits is less than six characters in ASCII.
I'm a bit skeptical that even an all powerful, all knowing deity
could implant much of an earth-shattering message in five and a
half letters.

Let me correct that slightly. 3 trillion bits has a 50% chance of
containing any give 41 bit string. Shorter strings are, of course
more likely.
3 trillion decimal digits is about 10 trillion bits.
At that size, you have a 50% chance of finding any 43 bit sequence.

FWIW, wiki says that the most recent calculation of pi was to
22,459,157,718,361 digits. A 72 core Xeon machine took 105 days to do
that.

That will get you another 3-4 bits.

pt

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 6:13:54 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 21:47:10 -0600, Cryptoengineer

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-5, Jibini

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 6:56:21 AM UTC-7, J.

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something
that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English,
(b) has an index showing where in Pi to find the same message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit,
Swahili, Nahuatl, and every other language, with all
of the indices being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may
be found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain
all those things, if pi is normal, without it being in
the least remarkable.
However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being
able to calculate pi to enough digits to see those
things would require a computer larger than the whole
universe.

How do you know how large a computer it would take? And
no, I don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur
in random values of _any_ length.

If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such
things _must_ be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is
not one of those two things. However, so far, we have only
calculated less than three trillion digits, which is a
trifle compared to infinity.

At 3 trillion decimal digits, there's around a 50%
probability of containing any given string of bits up to 41
bits long (I await correction).

41 bits is less than six characters in ASCII.
I'm a bit skeptical that even an all powerful, all knowing
deity could implant much of an earth-shattering message in
five and a half letters.

Let me correct that slightly. 3 trillion bits has a 50% chance
of containing any give 41 bit string. Shorter strings are, of
course more likely.
3 trillion decimal digits is about 10 trillion bits.
At that size, you have a 50% chance of finding any 43 bit
sequence.

FWIW, wiki says that the most recent calculation of pi was to
22,459,157,718,361 digits. A 72 core Xeon machine took 105
days to do that.

That will get you another 3-4 bits.

That puts us up to *almost* six full letters!
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Peter Trei
That will get you another 3-4 bits.

That puts us up to *almost* six full letters!

You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented
by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans
punctuation. More bits are required for others.

In 'Contact' (the Novel), it was an M by N bitmap they found
in PI, IIRC.

[Jerry Brown]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Peter Trei
That will get you another 3-4 bits.

That puts us up to *almost* six full letters!

You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented
by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans
punctuation. More bits are required for others.
In 'Contact' (the Novel), it was an M by N bitmap they found
in PI, IIRC.

IIRC (I read it decades ago) that there's a similar picture in Danny
Dunn* and the Message from Space.

(*: I've been rereading these now some of them are on Kindle but
Message from Space isn't available yet)

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Jerry Brown

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Peter Trei
That will get you another 3-4 bits.

That puts us up to *almost* six full letters!

You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented
by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans
punctuation. More bits are required for others.
In 'Contact' (the Novel), it was an M by N bitmap they found
in PI, IIRC.

IIRC (I read it decades ago) that there's a similar picture in Danny
Dunn* and the Message from Space.
(*: I've been rereading these now some of them are on Kindle but
Message from Space isn't available yet)

A graphic in a signal from space is a different, and feasible,
and actually executed proposition.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message>

In _Contact_ - spoiler? -

A video message is received from space. When played, it's Hitler.

This apparently is because television coverage of Hitler's Olympics,
featuring Hitler, was sent into space at the time - by accident,
I think.

[D B Davis]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Jerry Brown

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Peter Trei
That will get you another 3-4 bits.

That puts us up to *almost* six full letters!

You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented
by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans
punctuation. More bits are required for others.
In 'Contact' (the Novel), it was an M by N bitmap they found
in PI, IIRC.

IIRC (I read it decades ago) that there's a similar picture in Danny
Dunn* and the Message from Space.
(*: I've been rereading these now some of them are on Kindle but
Message from Space isn't available yet)

A graphic in a signal from space is a different, and feasible,
and actually executed proposition.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message>
In _Contact_ - spoiler? -
A video message is received from space. When played, it's Hitler.
This apparently is because television coverage of Hitler's Olympics,
featuring Hitler, was sent into space at the time - by accident,
I think.

Television broadcasts radiate in a spherical pattern. Some broadcast
radiation inevitably goes off into outer space even though it is
intended for a terrestrial audience. When in outer space a television
broadcast more-or-less travels at the speed of light towards planets
that are light years away.
The movie's premise is that earth's original television broadcast
carried the 1936 Berlin Olympics. [1] So the 1936 Berlin Olympics is the
first terrestrial broadcast to arrive at a distance planet because it
left the earth first.

1. http://www.earlytelevision.org/olympics_1936.html

✍

Thank you,

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Peter Trei
That will get you another 3-4 bits.

That puts us up to *almost* six full letters!

You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented
by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans
punctuation. More bits are required for others.

Eight letters versus six hardly makes a practical difference.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Greg Goss]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Peter Trei
That will get you another 3-4 bits.

That puts us up to *almost* six full letters!

You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented
by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans
punctuation. More bits are required for others.

Baudot used five.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Peter Trei
That will get you another 3-4 bits.

That puts us up to *almost* six full letters!

You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented
by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans
punctuation. More bits are required for others.

Baudot used five.

Indeed.

http://www.quadibloc.com/crypto/tele03.htm

John Savard

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Peter Trei
That will get you another 3-4 bits.

That puts us up to *almost* six full letters!

You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented
by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans punctuation.
More bits are required for others.

Baudot used five.

Indeed.
http://www.quadibloc.com/crypto/tele03.htm

The numbers I've quoted are just the probable distance you'd
have to search into a random bitstream before the probability
of finding any particular n-bit message reached 50%.

If Dog wanted to put a message in, I don't think He/She/It
is constrained by that.

pt

[Peter Trei]

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that
(a) looks like a message from God, in English,
(b) has an index showing where in Pi to find the same message
in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili, Nahuatl, and
every other language, with all of the indices being accurate
(c) has the location in the constant "e", another
transcendental number, in which the same message may be found
I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.

It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all those things, if pi
is normal, without it being in the least remarkable.
However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able to calculate pi to
enough digits to see those things would require a computer larger than the whole
universe.

How do you know how large a computer it would take? And no, I don't
buy that the multiple indexing would occur in random values of _any_
length.

Its not too hard.

Assume we're generating pi in binary, on bit at a time. See, for example:
https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~alopez-o/math-faq/mathtext/node12.html

How long is the total text you want to find? Is it 'God Exists', or
is it the whole KJV? How many bits do you need to represent it? Call that
number 'n'.

How far in do you need to get before the probability of that sequence
being randomly generated gets high enough? Keith could probably do the math
better than I, but I suspect its something on the order of 2^n bits in for
50% probability.

Make your message short, and you *will* find it. For example, my Zip code
occurs about 35,000 digits in.

Take a look at these:
https://diracseashore.wordpress.com/2009/02/09/looking-for-messages-in-the-digits-of-pi/

http://www.angio.net/pi/piquery

I think Quaddie is wrong in saying you need a huge machine - you need one
that can hold all the text you need to find, and deal with numbers of about
the same length, and not a lot of them. There's an algorithm which will find
the nth digit of pi: you just run that, and keep track of how far into
your target text you are; when it fails, start again at the next bit.

However, once you get to long texts, it will probably run until all of the
protons decay before it finds the target.

pt

[Quadibloc]

There would also be plenty of incorrect index pointers.

The Library of Babel, by Jorge Luis Borges, might be recommended here for groundwork on how to think about these issues.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Quadibloc
There would also be plenty of incorrect index pointers.

There would, in fact, be *infinite* incorrect index pointers.

(And, of course, infinite correct ones, too.)

Infinity isn't a really big number. It's much bigger than that.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Greg Goss]

Post by Robert Carnegie
Another story, in a twentieth century setting, has a character
making their computer search in digits of pi for a message
from God. And I think Star Trek's _Memory Prime_ has a
community of super-computers that happen to have worked out
several interesting facts that they weren't asked for and
haven't told their human associates, one being that their
pi is eventually a repeating decimal.

I have a very vague memory of a Clark novel where the coda mentions a
segment of pi, which displayed in some kind of grid, yields a perfect
circle - as some kind of signal from god.

[Greg Goss]

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Robert Carnegie
Another story, in a twentieth century setting, has a character
making their computer search in digits of pi for a message
from God. And I think Star Trek's _Memory Prime_ has a
community of super-computers that happen to have worked out
several interesting facts that they weren't asked for and
haven't told their human associates, one being that their
pi is eventually a repeating decimal.

I have a very vague memory of a Clark novel where the coda mentions a
segment of pi, which displayed in some kind of grid, yields a perfect
circle - as some kind of signal from god.

Someone else pointed out that this is from Contact. I SAID it was a
vague memory.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Bice
I used to joke that my memory is weaker than a Commodore 64's. After
this incident, I may have to downgrade that to Vic 20.
As I mentioned on this newsgroup several months ago, I've been slowly
working my way through all the Hugo winning novels in chronological
order. Last month I got to 1974 and Rendezvous With Rama.
I had previously read it decades ago, probably sometime in the late
1980s or early 90s. I distinctly remembered a scene where the group
exploring Rama found a circular object, measured its circumference and
radius and determined that it had a different value of pi (i.e. not
3.14159etc).
But my current re-read turned up no such scene. I even slogged my way
through the three Gentry Lee sequels, and it's not in those either.
So anyone know where I might have read that? There's a tiny chance
that my brain took a joke from the Simpsons where Professor Frink is
trying to get the attention of a group of unruly scientists and shouts
out "Gentleman, pi is exactly three!" and convinced itself that I had
read it in a book. But I'm almost sure that I actually did read such
a scene somewhere.
-- Bob

There was an amusing bit at the end of Miller & Lee's Liaden origins
duology where all the survivors of the crystalizing Universe are in
transit to our Universe and the genius mathematician who is navigating
the transition calls out a course correction factor of "3.14151-- that's
enough" and obviously the number means nothing to the others (who are
no math slouches by any means..)

[Butch Malahide]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was an amusing bit at the end of Miller & Lee's Liaden origins
duology where all the survivors of the crystalizing Universe are in
transit to our Universe and the genius mathematician who is navigating
the transition calls out a course correction factor of "3.14151-- that's
enough" and obviously the number means nothing to the others (who are
no math slouches by any means..)

I don't get it. The fact that the fifth digit after the decimal point
was 1 instead of 9 was somehow the point of the story? Or was that just
a typo?

[J. Clarke]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 18:34:21 -0800 (PST), Butch Malahide

Post by Butch Malahide

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was an amusing bit at the end of Miller & Lee's Liaden origins
duology where all the survivors of the crystalizing Universe are in
transit to our Universe and the genius mathematician who is navigating
the transition calls out a course correction factor of "3.14151-- that's
enough" and obviously the number means nothing to the others (who are
no math slouches by any means..)

I don't get it. The fact that the fifth digit after the decimal point
was 1 instead of 9 was somehow the point of the story? Or was that just
a typo?

Kindle's not find 3.14 in either of those books. And they were
escaping from _our_ universe before it was destroyed, so this doesn't
really make much sense. I suspect that Ted's conflating a Liaden
story with something else.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 18:34:21 -0800 (PST), Butch Malahide

Post by Butch Malahide

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was an amusing bit at the end of Miller & Lee's Liaden origins
duology where all the survivors of the crystalizing Universe are in
transit to our Universe and the genius mathematician who is navigating
the transition calls out a course correction factor of "3.14151-- that's
enough" and obviously the number means nothing to the others (who are
no math slouches by any means..)

I don't get it. The fact that the fifth digit after the decimal point
was 1 instead of 9 was somehow the point of the story? Or was that just
a typo?

Kindle's not find 3.14 in either of those books. And they were
escaping from _our_ universe before it was destroyed, so this doesn't
really make much sense. I suspect that Ted's conflating a Liaden
story with something else.

No, they were escaping _to_ our universe (where "our" == Terrans).

Here's the quote, which I misremembered slightly:

From _Crystal Dragon_:


"Aye, Captain." His fingers had already brought the tracking
systems up. He looked to the shields, and frowned, trying
to place the low growling noise that had suddenly come
on-line.

"Aha! Our noble feline would defend us from those!" The
scholar cried, as delighted as a child. "Captain Cantra-an
adjustment-if there is time? I have an additional factor.
This should be added to the final equations, for accuracy."

Now? Tor An thought wildly. With space in chaos about them
and creatures unlike anything seen or told by pilots-

"Go," Pilot Cantra said calmly. "I'm tracking."

"Yes. You will wish to multiply the final result of section
seven by this number, which is a very rough approximation
induced by the infinite expansion theory I have settled
upon. The number is this:
Three-point-one-four-one-five-nine-two-six-five-three-five-eight-nine."

"Three-point-one-four-one-five-nine-two-six-five-three-five-eight-nine,"
Cantra sang back, fingers dancing across her board.

"That is correct," the scholar said. "Very good."

"Added, compiled and locked. Is the cat . . ."

"The cat proclaims his warrior status, Captain Cantra. Also,
you will perhaps wish to know that Rool Tiazan is behaving-or
shall I say, not behaving!-in a somewhat peculiar manner."

[Quadibloc]

Looked up this story:

http://www.bewilderingstories.com/issue195/crystal_dragon_rev.html

Didn't learn anything about how pi worked into the plot. This reviewer felt that
the story was a poor C. J. Cherryh rip-off.

I think the reviewer was being unfair. Given that the book is really a romance
novel, but written to also be science-fiction, perhaps what the reviewer notes
simply means the authors read one book by C. J. Cherryh and assumed that this is
what all science fiction, Asimov, Clarke, van Vogt... is like. So they didn't
realize that it was C. J. Cherryh, instead of, say, H. G. Wells, was the person
to whom an acknowledgement was due.

Or perhaps I should have said that I suspect the reviewer of being too kind on
this one particular point.

John Savard

[Robert Woodward]

Post by Quadibloc
http://www.bewilderingstories.com/issue195/crystal_dragon_rev.html
Didn't learn anything about how pi worked into the plot. This
reviewer felt that the story was a poor C. J. Cherryh rip-off.

(checks review)

I think the problem is that the author isn't familiar with the rest of
the Liaden cycle (of which _Crystal Dragon_ is a prequel). For that
matter, I think the debt belongs to Andre Norton.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Post by Robert Woodward

Post by Quadibloc
http://www.bewilderingstories.com/issue195/crystal_dragon_rev.html
Didn't learn anything about how pi worked into the plot. This
reviewer felt that the story was a poor C. J. Cherryh rip-off.

(checks review)
I think the problem is that the author isn't familiar with the rest of
the Liaden cycle (of which _Crystal Dragon_ is a prequel). For that
matter, I think the debt belongs to Andre Norton.

Norton possibly, though I get a VERY strong Schmitz vibe from the
Liaden universe as a whole.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Robert Woodward

Post by Quadibloc
http://www.bewilderingstories.com/issue195/crystal_dragon_rev.html
Didn't learn anything about how pi worked into the plot. This
reviewer felt that the story was a poor C. J. Cherryh rip-off.

(checks review)
I think the problem is that the author isn't familiar with the rest of
the Liaden cycle (of which _Crystal Dragon_ is a prequel). For that
matter, I think the debt belongs to Andre Norton.

Norton possibly, though I get a VERY strong Schmitz vibe from the
Liaden universe as a whole.

That's a good observation, but Norton for cats certainly.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Robert Woodward

Post by Quadibloc
http://www.bewilderingstories.com/issue195/crystal_dragon_rev.html
Didn't learn anything about how pi worked into the plot. This
reviewer felt that the story was a poor C. J. Cherryh rip-off.

(checks review)
I think the problem is that the author isn't familiar with the rest of
the Liaden cycle (of which _Crystal Dragon_ is a prequel). For that
matter, I think the debt belongs to Andre Norton.

Norton possibly, though I get a VERY strong Schmitz vibe from the
Liaden universe as a whole.

That's a good observation, but Norton for cats certainly.

I dunno. Cat-addiction seems endemic among the writer community, so I
don't know that I could point at any one author as the source. As I
noted in a post on the Liaden group, I'd make a TERRIBLE member of Clan
Korval. I can't do high mathematics in my head, I detest wine AND tea, I
can't pilot, I don't know martial arts or dance, and cats are my mortal
enemies.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Robert Woodward

Post by Quadibloc
http://www.bewilderingstories.com/issue195/crystal_dragon_rev.html
Didn't learn anything about how pi worked into the plot. This
reviewer felt that the story was a poor C. J. Cherryh rip-off.

(checks review)
I think the problem is that the author isn't familiar with the rest of
the Liaden cycle (of which _Crystal Dragon_ is a prequel). For that
matter, I think the debt belongs to Andre Norton.

Norton possibly, though I get a VERY strong Schmitz vibe from the
Liaden universe as a whole.

That's a good observation, but Norton for cats certainly.

I dunno. Cat-addiction seems endemic among the writer community, so I
don't know that I could point at any one author as the source. As I
noted in a post on the Liaden group, I'd make a TERRIBLE member of Clan
Korval. I can't do high mathematics in my head, I detest wine AND tea, I
can't pilot, I don't know martial arts or dance, and cats are my mortal
enemies.

Maybe you're a DOI agent. You wouldn't know..

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Robert Woodward

On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 10:12:28 PM UTC-7, Ted Nolan
<tednolan>
http://www.bewilderingstories.com/issue195/crystal_dragon_rev.html
Didn't learn anything about how pi worked into the plot. This
reviewer felt that the story was a poor C. J. Cherryh rip-off.

(checks review)
I think the problem is that the author isn't familiar with the rest of
the Liaden cycle (of which _Crystal Dragon_ is a prequel). For that
matter, I think the debt belongs to Andre Norton.

Norton possibly, though I get a VERY strong Schmitz vibe from the
Liaden universe as a whole.

That's a good observation, but Norton for cats certainly.

I dunno. Cat-addiction seems endemic among the writer community, so
I don't know that I could point at any one author as the source. As I
noted in a post on the Liaden group, I'd make a TERRIBLE member of Clan
Korval. I can't do high mathematics in my head, I detest wine AND tea, I
can't pilot, I don't know martial arts or dance, and cats are my mortal
enemies.

*Has a sudden mental picture of Ryk Spoor visiting James Nicoll's game
store....*

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Robert Woodward

Post by Quadibloc
http://www.bewilderingstories.com/issue195/crystal_dragon_rev.html
Didn't learn anything about how pi worked into the plot. This
reviewer felt that the story was a poor C. J. Cherryh rip-off.

(checks review)
I think the problem is that the author isn't familiar with the rest of
the Liaden cycle (of which _Crystal Dragon_ is a prequel). For that
matter, I think the debt belongs to Andre Norton.

Norton possibly, though I get a VERY strong Schmitz vibe from the
Liaden universe as a whole.

That's a good observation, but Norton for cats certainly.

I dunno. Cat-addiction seems endemic among the writer community, so I
don't know that I could point at any one author as the source. As I
noted in a post on the Liaden group, I'd make a TERRIBLE member of Clan
Korval. I can't do high mathematics in my head, I detest wine AND tea, I
can't pilot, I don't know martial arts or dance, and cats are my mortal
enemies.

Really? I thought you were a cnidarian, not a rodent.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
I dunno. Cat-addiction seems endemic among the writer community, so I
don't know that I could point at any one author as the source.

Aside from Andre Norton, there's George R. R. Martin - from his novel Tuf Voyaging
- and I remember a series of detective stories centered around a cat. When I tried
to Google it, I got an innummerable variety of results in place of the specific
one I sought, but on my second attempt I found it was Lilian Jackson Brown of whom
I was thinking.

Oh, wait, no. I wasn't really thinking of her, I was thinking of Rita Mae Brown.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
I dunno. Cat-addiction seems endemic among the writer community, so I
don't know that I could point at any one author as the source.

Aside from Andre Norton, there's George R. R. Martin - from his novel Tuf Voyaging
- and I remember a series of detective stories centered around a cat. When I tried
to Google it, I got an innummerable variety of results in place of the specific
one I sought, but on my second attempt I found it was Lilian Jackson Brown of whom
I was thinking.
Oh, wait, no. I wasn't really thinking of her, I was thinking of Rita Mae Brown.

An understandable confusion; they both are female mystery writers
who feature cats.

Distinction, for those who haven't read either one: in LJB's
stories the detective has cats. In RMB's stories the detectives
*are* cats.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Distinction, for those who haven't read either one: in LJB's
stories the detective has cats. In RMB's stories the detectives
*are* cats.

In S. Andrew Swann's _Forests of the Night_, the hard-boiled detective
protagonist is an anthropomorphized tiger who also keeps a pet cat.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Distinction, for those who haven't read either one: in LJB's
stories the detective has cats. In RMB's stories the detectives
*are* cats.

In S. Andrew Swann's _Forests of the Night_, the hard-boiled detective
protagonist is an anthropomorphized tiger who also keeps a pet cat.

Hmmmmmm.

I may look that up someday.

[Default User]

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Robert Woodward
I think the problem is that the author isn't familiar with the rest
of the Liaden cycle (of which _Crystal Dragon_ is a prequel). For
that matter, I think the debt belongs to Andre Norton.

Norton possibly, though I get a VERY strong Schmitz vibe from the
Liaden universe as a whole.

Oh. I liked the Schmitz "Hub" stories a lot, Liaden not nearly so much.


Brian

[Robert Woodward]

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Robert Woodward

Post by Quadibloc
http://www.bewilderingstories.com/issue195/crystal_dragon_rev.html
Didn't learn anything about how pi worked into the plot. This
reviewer felt that the story was a poor C. J. Cherryh rip-off.

(checks review)
I think the problem is that the author isn't familiar with the rest of
the Liaden cycle (of which _Crystal Dragon_ is a prequel). For that
matter, I think the debt belongs to Andre Norton.

Norton possibly, though I get a VERY strong Schmitz vibe from the
Liaden universe as a whole.

Perhaps _Witches of Karres_, but I don't see much resemblance otherwise.
The Liaden universe and many Norton works (not just Witch World) have
deep-past booby-traps.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Robert Woodward
I think the problem is that the author isn't familiar with the rest of
the Liaden cycle (of which _Crystal Dragon_ is a prequel). For that
matter, I think the debt belongs to Andre Norton.

On further reflection, I decided it was unfair of me to believe what the
reviewer said.

Even if the review seemed to hint that instead of the accusation as stated being
true, the situation was the worse one I saw... there were some facts that would
stand in the way.

Densely plotted political intrigue, even if C. J. Cherryh brought a unique brand
of that to science fiction, has been around for some time. What about the
Vorkosigan novels? For that matter, Asimov's Foundation Trilogy could be
mentioned. Or even some of David Weber's Honor Harrington oeuvre.

And the authors of the Liaden romance-sf would probably have been more familiar
with other romance novel authors. Many romance novels are also *historical
fiction* and densely-plotted political intrigue is, I would expect, a fairly
frequent feature of such works.

So instead of being too dumb to know they were plagiarizing, they probably
weren't.

John Savard

[Gary R. Schmidt]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Robert Woodward
I think the problem is that the author isn't familiar with the rest of
the Liaden cycle (of which _Crystal Dragon_ is a prequel). For that
matter, I think the debt belongs to Andre Norton.

On further reflection, I decided it was unfair of me to believe what the
reviewer said.
Even if the review seemed to hint that instead of the accusation as stated being
true, the situation was the worse one I saw... there were some facts that would
stand in the way.
Densely plotted political intrigue, even if C. J. Cherryh brought a unique brand
of that to science fiction, has been around for some time. What about the
Vorkosigan novels? For that matter, Asimov's Foundation Trilogy could be
mentioned. Or even some of David Weber's Honor Harrington oeuvre.
And the authors of the Liaden romance-sf would probably have been more familiar
with other romance novel authors. Many romance novels are also *historical
fiction* and densely-plotted political intrigue is, I would expect, a fairly
frequent feature of such works.
So instead of being too dumb to know they were plagiarizing, they probably
weren't.

Given that they set *out* to write a Romance Novel (and other variants),
using an SF environment, that'd be pretty good guess on your part.

Of course, to the rest of us who have actually *read* the Liaden books,
particularly those who read them when the first ones were published
(look up when that was), it's on the level of informing the audience
that water is wet.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

[Alan Baker]

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 18:34:21 -0800 (PST), Butch Malahide

Post by Butch Malahide

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was an amusing bit at the end of Miller & Lee's Liaden origins
duology where all the survivors of the crystalizing Universe are in
transit to our Universe and the genius mathematician who is navigating
the transition calls out a course correction factor of "3.14151-- that's
enough" and obviously the number means nothing to the others (who are
no math slouches by any means..)

I don't get it. The fact that the fifth digit after the decimal point
was 1 instead of 9 was somehow the point of the story? Or was that just
a typo?

Kindle's not find 3.14 in either of those books. And they were
escaping from _our_ universe before it was destroyed, so this doesn't
really make much sense. I suspect that Ted's conflating a Liaden
story with something else.

Nope. Ted is bang on. I've got the hard copy rather than a Kindle copy,
so I can't type it in directly until I get home, but right at the end of
"Crystal Dragon", Professor Liad calls out the numbers of pi as an
important factor in their transition to their new home.

There is nothing in the books that I can recall which makes it clear
whether they are leaving our universe and entering/creating another, or
leaving another universe to enter/create ours.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Alan Baker

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 18:34:21 -0800 (PST), Butch Malahide

On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 1:14:18 PM UTC-6, Ted Nolan

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was an amusing bit at the end of Miller & Lee's Liaden origins
duology where all the survivors of the crystalizing Universe are in
transit to our Universe and the genius mathematician who is navigating
the transition calls out a course correction factor of "3.14151-- that's
enough" and obviously the number means nothing to the others (who are
no math slouches by any means..)

I don't get it. The fact that the fifth digit after the decimal point
was 1 instead of 9 was somehow the point of the story? Or was that just
a typo?

Kindle's not find 3.14 in either of those books. And they were
escaping from _our_ universe before it was destroyed, so this doesn't
really make much sense. I suspect that Ted's conflating a Liaden
story with something else.

Nope. Ted is bang on. I've got the hard copy rather than a Kindle copy,
so I can't type it in directly until I get home, but right at the end of
"Crystal Dragon", Professor Liad calls out the numbers of pi as an
important factor in their transition to their new home.
There is nothing in the books that I can recall which makes it clear
whether they are leaving our universe and entering/creating another, or
leaving another universe to enter/create ours.

Well, the fact that the existing humanoids in the universe they go
to call themselves Terrans and regard the Liadens as latecomers
indicates they are entering our universe. (Although to be fair,
we don't know that the "Terrans" didn't come from someplace else
long long ago that they've forgotten about).

[Peter Trei]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Alan Baker

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 18:34:21 -0800 (PST), Butch Malahide

On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 1:14:18 PM UTC-6, Ted Nolan

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was an amusing bit at the end of Miller & Lee's Liaden origins
duology where all the survivors of the crystalizing Universe are in
transit to our Universe and the genius mathematician who is navigating
the transition calls out a course correction factor of "3.14151-- that's
enough" and obviously the number means nothing to the others (who are
no math slouches by any means..)

I don't get it. The fact that the fifth digit after the decimal point
was 1 instead of 9 was somehow the point of the story? Or was that just
a typo?

Kindle's not find 3.14 in either of those books. And they were
escaping from _our_ universe before it was destroyed, so this doesn't
really make much sense. I suspect that Ted's conflating a Liaden
story with something else.

Nope. Ted is bang on. I've got the hard copy rather than a Kindle copy,
so I can't type it in directly until I get home, but right at the end of
"Crystal Dragon", Professor Liad calls out the numbers of pi as an
important factor in their transition to their new home.
There is nothing in the books that I can recall which makes it clear
whether they are leaving our universe and entering/creating another, or
leaving another universe to enter/create ours.

Well, the fact that the existing humanoids in the universe they go
to call themselves Terrans and regard the Liadens as latecomers
indicates they are entering our universe. (Although to be fair,
we don't know that the "Terrans" didn't come from someplace else
long long ago that they've forgotten about).

[I don't follow the series]

The biochemical and genetic evidence that we evolved along with all the
other life on this planet is overwhelming.

pt

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Butch Malahide

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was an amusing bit at the end of Miller & Lee's Liaden origins
duology where all the survivors of the crystalizing Universe are in
transit to our Universe and the genius mathematician who is navigating
the transition calls out a course correction factor of "3.14151-- that's
enough" and obviously the number means nothing to the others (who are
no math slouches by any means..)

I don't get it. The fact that the fifth digit after the decimal point
was 1 instead of 9 was somehow the point of the story? Or was that just
a typo?

That's just my typo. The joke is that nobody in the ship was familiar
with Pi, or at least Pi with that value.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Butch Malahide

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was an amusing bit at the end of Miller & Lee's Liaden origins
duology where all the survivors of the crystalizing Universe are in
transit to our Universe and the genius mathematician who is navigating
the transition calls out a course correction factor of "3.14151-- that's
enough" and obviously the number means nothing to the others (who are
no math slouches by any means..)

I don't get it. The fact that the fifth digit after the decimal point
was 1 instead of 9 was somehow the point of the story? Or was that just
a typo?

What I get from that is that since there were people in there who weren't math
slouches, and 3.1415... didn't ring a bell with them, pi must have been
something completely different in the old universe. And so the 1 was just a
typo - or the course correction factor differed slightly from the value of pi it
would impose on the new universe.

John Savard