COVID 19 App

Post by BrritSki
As I said yesterday, I'm not that worried about privacy - after all what
do Google Facebook et al learn about me that they don't already know ? :/
I am far more concerned that the app simply will not work :(
<https://order-order.com/2020/05/06/experts-respond-government-nhs-app-rebuttal/>

So it appears that Mr Fawkes was right. Not that the Apple/Android app
seems to be that successful either :/

krw

2020-06-19 10:47:30 UTC

Post by BrritSki
As I said yesterday, I'm not that worried about privacy - after all
what do Google Facebook et al learn about me that they don't already
know ? :/
I am far more concerned that the app simply will not work :(
<https://order-order.com/2020/05/06/experts-respond-government-nhs-app-rebuttal/>

So it appears that Mr Fawkes was right. Not that the Apple/Android app
seems to be that successful either :/

I am sure someone said that the app was world beating and the world
would be beating a path to our door to use it?

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

Nick Odell

2020-06-19 19:21:40 UTC

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:38:43 +0100, BrritSki

So it appears that Mr Fawkes was right. Not that the Apple/Android app
seems to be that successful either :/

So. If Mr Fawkes could see it and you could see that Mr Fawkes could
see it and, let us face it, most folk outside the heart of government
could see it, why did it take so long for those inside the heart of
government to see it? (Rewrite previous sentence replacing "app" with
any Covid-19 topic of your choice, ad nauseam.)

Just to establish where I am coming from with this soon-to-be-written
little rantette, I lean to the left (or so my tailor tells me) but
given the opportunity to form my personal fantasy government I would
pick good people from all over the political spectrum because it is my
opinion that the vast majority of people of any persuasion who go into
politics do so to try and make their town/county/country/world a bit
better but the few who are in it for themselves get noticed for being
in it for themselves. So if we may we presume, for the sake of
argument, most people in politics want to get our country through this
current mess with compassion and care for each other and as little
personal and economic damage as possible, why are we getting it all so
horribly wrong?

This is my take:

Let us look over the pond. In my opinion, the Republican Party is not
made up entirely of racists and bigots: there are some damn fine
Republican people there who care about their neighbours and their
country in a Republican way. But because the Republican Party was
failing to win majorities in the country, they collectively took the
decision to front the party with someone who was not a real Republican
but who could win back power. And what they got was someone who won
power for themselves in the name of the Republican Party and governs
by effectively sidelining the Republican rump - who are too frightened
to fight back for losing what remnants of power the rump still
retains.

Does that sound familiar? I think that is what the ailing Labour Party
did when they brought in Tony Blair - who was not "real" Labour and
who consigned old Labour values to the sidelines - and what the
flailing Conservative Party did when they elected Boris Johnson as
Prime Minister.

In short, we no more have a Conservative government of the UK than the
US has one of Republicans. Until Parliament gets itself a backbone and
demands better, I think we are stuck with government by a
non-representative putsch and the chaos that imbues therein.

Ahhhh. I feel better now.

Nick

BrritSki

2020-06-19 16:39:04 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:38:43 +0100, BrritSki

So it appears that Mr Fawkes was right. Not that the Apple/Android app
seems to be that successful either :/

Because, as a certain Dominic Cummings used to say (but seems to have
been distracted from), our Civil Service and Institutions are rubbish.

This appeared on Guido this afternoon. I 100% agree.

BOSS OF NHSX SHOULD BE FIRED OVER APP FIASCO

Matthew Gould is the CEO of ‘NHSX’, the Quango set up to “foster
innovation” in the NHS, despite the prior existence of NHS digital, who
already had the same mandate. Another expensive layer of civil servants
with little or no tech expertise in the NHS.

Gould is not a techie, he is a former UK ambassador to Israel and a
career diplomat with no background in the private sector or technology.
Gould is an old school friend of George Osborne. Osborne had former
Cabinet Secretary Jeremy Heywood appoint Gould to a role at DCMS despite
the lack of relevant experience. Gould likes to crow about the
‘UK-Israel tech hub’ he set up when UK ambassador to Israel. At DCMS,
Gould was supposed to manage government relations with ‘GAFAM’ (Google,
Apple, Facebook, Amazon and Microsoft). He spent a lot of taxpayers’
money flying business class to California, where he would apologise for
Brexit and then berate them about data privacy issues. Needless to say,
GAFAM’s senior execs like Zuckerberg ignored Gould’s requests for
meetings and fobbed him off on PR people like Nick Clegg. Gould felt
slighted and maintains a grudge against GAFAM.

Nonetheless, Osborne encouraged Matt Hancock to appointed Gould to be
‘CEO’ of NHSX. His appointment was greeted with a collective sigh of
despair across the tech-industry that a self-declared ‘tech bluffer’
with no real experience got the £150,000 job. “Let’s be clear” as Matt
Hancock likes to say, it is Matthew Gould that has really screwed up the
NHS Covid tracing app. Apple is not, as he is trying to spin, to blame.

Gould chose to pursue a policy of “Build rather than Buy” against the
advice of everyone who did not work for him. You had two of the world’s
largest technology companies joining forces to develop a decentralised,
privacy-focused application that most of the world has rolled out in
order to trace Coronavirus outbreaks. On the other hand, you have
Gould’s team at NHSX, within a government department, outsourcing the
build to external contractors based in Switzerland. Who could have
predicted it would go wrong? Everyone.

The decision to build the software rather than buy it in – especially as
it was already close to existing at the time – was Gould’s decision. It
was a decision made for his and NHSX’s glory more than the public
interest. Dominic Cummings when he was outside government would rail in
blogs about the culture of the Civil Service, where Oxbridge bluffers
with no clue would fail and face no consequences. Gould, who read
philosophy and divinity at Cambridge, is a classic example. Gould should
be fired over this fiasco…

Mike

2020-06-19 16:49:21 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:38:43 +0100, BrritSki

So it appears that Mr Fawkes was right. Not that the Apple/Android app
seems to be that successful either :/

Because, as a certain Dominic Cummings used to say (but seems to have
been distracted from), our Civil Service and Institutions are rubbish.
This appeared on Guido this afternoon. I 100% agree.
BOSS OF NHSX SHOULD BE FIRED OVER APP FIASCO
Matthew Gould is the CEO of ‘NHSX’, the Quango set up to “foster
innovation” in the NHS, despite the prior existence of NHS digital, who
already had the same mandate. Another expensive layer of civil servants
with little or no tech expertise in the NHS.
Gould is not a techie, he is a former UK ambassador to Israel and a
career diplomat with no background in the private sector or technology.
Gould is an old school friend of George Osborne. Osborne had former
Cabinet Secretary Jeremy Heywood appoint Gould to a role at DCMS despite
the lack of relevant experience. Gould likes to crow about the
‘UK-Israel tech hub’ he set up when UK ambassador to Israel. At DCMS,
Gould was supposed to manage government relations with ‘GAFAM’ (Google,
Apple, Facebook, Amazon and Microsoft). He spent a lot of taxpayers’
money flying business class to California, where he would apologise for
Brexit and then berate them about data privacy issues. Needless to say,
GAFAM’s senior execs like Zuckerberg ignored Gould’s requests for
meetings and fobbed him off on PR people like Nick Clegg. Gould felt
slighted and maintains a grudge against GAFAM.
Nonetheless, Osborne encouraged Matt Hancock to appointed Gould to be
‘CEO’ of NHSX. His appointment was greeted with a collective sigh of
despair across the tech-industry that a self-declared ‘tech bluffer’
with no real experience got the £150,000 job. “Let’s be clear” as Matt
Hancock likes to say, it is Matthew Gould that has really screwed up the
NHS Covid tracing app. Apple is not, as he is trying to spin, to blame.
Gould chose to pursue a policy of “Build rather than Buy” against the
advice of everyone who did not work for him. You had two of the world’s
largest technology companies joining forces to develop a decentralised,
privacy-focused application that most of the world has rolled out in
order to trace Coronavirus outbreaks. On the other hand, you have
Gould’s team at NHSX, within a government department, outsourcing the
build to external contractors based in Switzerland. Who could have
predicted it would go wrong? Everyone.
The decision to build the software rather than buy it in – especially as
it was already close to existing at the time – was Gould’s decision. It
was a decision made for his and NHSX’s glory more than the public
interest. Dominic Cummings when he was outside government would rail in
blogs about the culture of the Civil Service, where Oxbridge bluffers
with no clue would fail and face no consequences. Gould, who read
philosophy and divinity at Cambridge, is a classic example. Gould should
be fired over this fiasco…

Just another example of how to waste vast amounts of money promoting
individuals to their own level of incompetence then.

--
Toodle Pip

BrritSki

2020-06-19 19:07:18 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:38:43 +0100, BrritSki

So it appears that Mr Fawkes was right. Not that the Apple/Android app
seems to be that successful either :/

Because, as a certain Dominic Cummings used to say (but seems to have
been distracted from), our Civil Service and Institutions are rubbish.
This appeared on Guido this afternoon. I 100% agree.
BOSS OF NHSX SHOULD BE FIRED OVER APP FIASCO
Matthew Gould is the CEO of ‘NHSX’, the Quango set up to “foster
innovation” in the NHS, despite the prior existence of NHS digital, who
already had the same mandate. Another expensive layer of civil servants
with little or no tech expertise in the NHS.
Gould is not a techie, he is a former UK ambassador to Israel and a
career diplomat with no background in the private sector or technology.
Gould is an old school friend of George Osborne. Osborne had former
Cabinet Secretary Jeremy Heywood appoint Gould to a role at DCMS despite
the lack of relevant experience. Gould likes to crow about the
‘UK-Israel tech hub’ he set up when UK ambassador to Israel. At DCMS,
Gould was supposed to manage government relations with ‘GAFAM’ (Google,
Apple, Facebook, Amazon and Microsoft). He spent a lot of taxpayers’
money flying business class to California, where he would apologise for
Brexit and then berate them about data privacy issues. Needless to say,
GAFAM’s senior execs like Zuckerberg ignored Gould’s requests for
meetings and fobbed him off on PR people like Nick Clegg. Gould felt
slighted and maintains a grudge against GAFAM.
Nonetheless, Osborne encouraged Matt Hancock to appointed Gould to be
‘CEO’ of NHSX. His appointment was greeted with a collective sigh of
despair across the tech-industry that a self-declared ‘tech bluffer’
with no real experience got the £150,000 job. “Let’s be clear” as Matt
Hancock likes to say, it is Matthew Gould that has really screwed up the
NHS Covid tracing app. Apple is not, as he is trying to spin, to blame.
Gould chose to pursue a policy of “Build rather than Buy” against the
advice of everyone who did not work for him. You had two of the world’s
largest technology companies joining forces to develop a decentralised,
privacy-focused application that most of the world has rolled out in
order to trace Coronavirus outbreaks. On the other hand, you have
Gould’s team at NHSX, within a government department, outsourcing the
build to external contractors based in Switzerland. Who could have
predicted it would go wrong? Everyone.
The decision to build the software rather than buy it in – especially as
it was already close to existing at the time – was Gould’s decision. It
was a decision made for his and NHSX’s glory more than the public
interest. Dominic Cummings when he was outside government would rail in
blogs about the culture of the Civil Service, where Oxbridge bluffers
with no clue would fail and face no consequences. Gould, who read
philosophy and divinity at Cambridge, is a classic example. Gould should
be fired over this fiasco…

A lurker has criticised me by email for this "bile", but doesn't have
the guts to do so in public or explain what s/he objects to. I'd like to
know what inaccuracies there are in the above ?

The lurker also claims I have the "smart quotes" wrong whatever the fuck
they are. I can't see any difference (apart from some coloured and/or
italicised sections) between the original [1] and what I cut and pasted
so perhaps someone can enlighten me on that too.

I suspect this is the work of an embittered Remainer who can't stand a
site like Guido who takes a different line on life than s/he does and is
also successful. I take my news from many diverse sources. This is just
one of them.

Of course if the considered feeling on umra is that this sort of thing
is not acceptable I'll be interested to hear it.

[1] Original here
<https://order-order.com/2020/06/19/boss-of-nhsx-should-be-fired-over-app-fiasco/>

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-06-19 21:18:29 UTC

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 20:07:18, BrritSki <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
[]

Post by BrritSki
The lurker also claims I have the "smart quotes" wrong whatever the

[]

Post by BrritSki
I suspect this is the work of an embittered Remainer who can't stand a
site like Guido who takes a different line on life than s/he does and
is also successful. I take my news from many diverse sources. This is
just one of them.
Of course if the considered feeling on umra is that this sort of thing
is not acceptable I'll be interested to hear it.

Oh, getting smart quotes wrong is completely beyond the (UMRAtic) pale
(-:.
[Well, IMO _using_ them at all is near the knuckle, but that's not your
fault - since you don't know what they are, using them is a choice you
weren't asked about, it was just imposed on you without your knowledge
by the hardware and software you're using.]
[]

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Of course some of it [television] is bad. But some of everything is bad -
books, music, family ... - Melvyn Bragg, RT 2017/7/1-7

Nick Odell

2020-06-20 02:08:15 UTC

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:07:18 +0100, BrritSki
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
<huge snip>

Post by BrritSki
A lurker has criticised me by email for this "bile", but doesn't have
the guts to do so in public or explain what s/he objects to. I'd like to
know what inaccuracies there are in the above ?

Makes a change from "The Lurkers Support Me In Email" (sung to the
tune of "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean.")

<more snippage>

Post by BrritSki
I suspect this is the work of an embittered Remainer who can't stand a
site like Guido who takes a different line on life than s/he does and is
also successful. I take my news from many diverse sources. This is just
one of them.
Of course if the considered feeling on umra is that this sort of thing
is not acceptable I'll be interested to hear it.

My feeling is that I welcome open discussions with people of differing
views - anything else is just talking in an echo-chamber - and I am
genuinely interested in the considered opinions of others. The purpose
of such discussions from my point of view is to explain and inform,
not to try and convert. I think people can live together better if
they understand each other better, not necessarily because they all
think alike.

If a discussion descends into personal abuse that is the end of it for
me and, if you do not mind my saying so, calling someone an embittered
Remainer is sailing pretty close to the wind - even if they are a
gutless troll(1) - oops! now I´ve done it!

Nick
(1)Curious to learn how they emailed anonymously.

Vicky Ayech

2020-06-20 08:03:15 UTC

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 23:08:15 -0300, Nick Odell

Post by Nick Odell
On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:07:18 +0100, BrritSki
<huge snip>

Makes a change from "The Lurkers Support Me In Email" (sung to the
tune of "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean.")
<more snippage>

Post by BrritSki
I suspect this is the work of an embittered Remainer who can't stand a
site like Guido who takes a different line on life than s/he does and is
also successful. I take my news from many diverse sources. This is just
one of them.
Of course if the considered feeling on umra is that this sort of thing
is not acceptable I'll be interested to hear it.

My feeling is that I welcome open discussions with people of differing
views - anything else is just talking in an echo-chamber - and I am
genuinely interested in the considered opinions of others. The purpose
of such discussions from my point of view is to explain and inform,
not to try and convert. I think people can live together better if
they understand each other better, not necessarily because they all
think alike.
If a discussion descends into personal abuse that is the end of it for
me and, if you do not mind my saying so, calling someone an embittered
Remainer is sailing pretty close to the wind - even if they are a
gutless troll(1) - oops! now I´ve done it!
Nick
(1)Curious to learn how they emailed anonymously.

I agree with all that.

I have to admit it is very tempting to enjoy discussion with people
whose views are the same as mine and more difficult to discuss when
they are not.

BrritSki

2020-06-20 08:33:28 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:07:18 +0100, BrritSki

Post by BrritSki
I suspect this is the work of an embittered Remainer who can't stand a
site like Guido who takes a different line on life than s/he does and is
also successful. I take my news from many diverse sources. This is just
one of them.
Of course if the considered feeling on umra is that this sort of thing
is not acceptable I'll be interested to hear it.

My feeling is that I welcome open discussions with people of differing
views - anything else is just talking in an echo-chamber - and I am
genuinely interested in the considered opinions of others.

Yes, me too, and one of the attractions of umra is that you can have
such discussions with a degree of politeness, although I find it's
pretty lonely usually on my side of the argument.

My stalurker seems to think this is a bad thing "Do you not wonder why
you (sic) behaviour is so different from others on UMRA? No need to
reply, just think about it." and doesn't realise that I do think about
that and whether it's worth staying very regularly. He might wonder why
the few umrats with similar views to mine have long gone if he's been
lurking long enough to remember them. They are sorely missed, if not for
their politics but for their very funny contributions,

But he didn't want to discuss it because "Frankly it's too much effort
to make a reasoned argument against someone who thinks copy-pasting bile
is "discussion"." when in fact an interesting discussion HAS resulted,
first with John Ashby and others and now with you Nick. Sigh.

The purpose

Post by Nick Odell
of such discussions from my point of view is to explain and inform,
not to try and convert. I think people can live together better if
they understand each other better, not necessarily because they all
think alike.

Completely agree.

Post by Nick Odell
If a discussion descends into personal abuse that is the end of it for
me and, if you do not mind my saying so, calling someone an embittered
Remainer is sailing pretty close to the wind - even if they are a
gutless troll(1) - oops! now I´ve done it!

Well if he had had the cojones to say something publicly I probably
wouldn't have said that, and he seems as much exercised by the source of
the text as the content which is never a good sign.

Post by Nick Odell
(1)Curious to learn how they emailed anonymously.

He didn't and I didn't suggest that or that he was a troll, just a
lurker. I am well aware of his name and email address but chose to
respect his privacy.

Sid Nuncius

2020-06-21 17:08:25 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 20:07:18 +0100, BrritSki

Post by BrritSki
I suspect this is the work of an embittered Remainer who can't stand a
site like Guido who takes a different line on life than s/he does and is
also successful. I take my news from many diverse sources. This is just
one of them.
Of course if the considered feeling on umra is that this sort of thing
is not acceptable I'll be interested to hear it.

My feeling is that I welcome open discussions with people of differing
views - anything else is just talking in an echo-chamber - and I am
genuinely interested in the considered opinions of others.

Yes, me too, and one of the attractions of umra is that you can have
such discussions with a degree of politeness, although I find it's
pretty lonely usually on my side of the argument.
My stalurker seems to think this is a bad thing "Do you not wonder why
you (sic) behaviour is so different from others on UMRA? No need to
reply, just think about it." and doesn't realise that I do think about
that and whether it's worth staying very regularly. He might wonder why
the few umrats with similar views to mine have long gone if he's been
lurking long enough to remember them. They are sorely missed, if not for
their politics but for their very funny contributions,
But he didn't want to discuss it because "Frankly it's too much effort
to make a reasoned argument against someone who thinks copy-pasting bile
is "discussion"." when in fact an interesting discussion HAS resulted,
first with John Ashby and others and now with you Nick. Sigh.
The purpose

Completely agree.

Well if he had had the cojones to say something publicly I probably
wouldn't have said that, and he seems as much exercised by the source of
the text as the content which is never a good sign.

Post by Nick Odell
(1)Curious to learn how they emailed anonymously.

He didn't and I didn't suggest that or that he was a troll, just a
lurker. I am well aware of his name and email address but chose to
respect his privacy.

--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)

Sid Nuncius

2020-06-21 17:20:21 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
My feeling is that I welcome open discussions with people of differing
views - anything else is just talking in an echo-chamber - and I am
genuinely interested in the considered opinions of others.

Yes, me too, and one of the attractions of umra is that you can have
such discussions with a degree of politeness, although I find it's
pretty lonely usually on my side of the argument.
My stalurker seems to think this is a bad thing "Do you not wonder why
you (sic) behaviour is so different from others on UMRA? No need to
reply, just think about it." and doesn't realise that I do think about
that and whether it's worth staying very regularly. He might wonder why
the few umrats with similar views to mine have long gone if he's been
lurking long enough to remember them. They are sorely missed, if not for
their politics but for their very funny contributions,
But he didn't want to discuss it because "Frankly it's too much effort
to make a reasoned argument against someone who thinks copy-pasting bile
is "discussion"." when in fact an interesting discussion HAS resulted,
first with John Ashby and others and now with you Nick. Sigh.

I've had rather a rough week and have only just caught up with this thread.

I'm sorry you've been addressed in this way, Brritters. FWIW, I think
your lurker is talking a load of male gonads.

Firstly, it's not bile. It's a strongly argued point of view which
seems to be based on sound knowledge. I don't know whether it's all
absolutely accurate, nor whether I completely agree with all of its
conclusions but it's a perfectly legitimate argument.

Secondly, and more importantly, I completely agree about the value of
these discussions and I'm extremely glad you're here to have them. I
agree that the otherrats you refer to are a sad loss and I still miss
them greatly, so thanks for sticking around. And, BTW, your "behaviour"
isn't unumratic in any way, IMO.

So there.

--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)

BrritSki

2020-06-21 17:25:58 UTC

Yes, me too, and one of the attractions of umra is that you can have
such discussions with a degree of politeness, although I find it's
pretty lonely usually on my side of the argument.
My stalurker seems to think this is a bad thing "Do you not wonder why
you (sic) behaviour is so different from others on UMRA? No need to
reply, just think about it." and doesn't realise that I do think about
that and whether it's worth staying very regularly. He might wonder
why the few umrats with similar views to mine have long gone if he's
been lurking long enough to remember them. They are sorely missed, if
not for their politics but for their very funny contributions,
But he didn't want to discuss it because "Frankly it's too much effort
to make a reasoned argument against someone who thinks copy-pasting
bile is "discussion"." when in fact an interesting discussion HAS
resulted, first with John Ashby and others and now with you Nick. Sigh.

I've had rather a rough week and have only just caught up with this thread.
I'm sorry you've been addressed in this way, Brritters. FWIW, I think
your lurker is talking a load of male gonads.
Firstly, it's not bile. It's a strongly argued point of view which
seems to be based on sound knowledge. I don't know whether it's all
absolutely accurate, nor whether I completely agree with all of its
conclusions but it's a perfectly legitimate argument.
Secondly, and more importantly, I completely agree about the value of
these discussions and I'm extremely glad you're here to have them. I
agree that the otherrats you refer to are a sad loss and I still miss
them greatly, so thanks for sticking around. And, BTW, your "behaviour"
isn't unumratic in any way, IMO.
So there.

Thanks MOPMOB

Serena Blanchflower

2020-06-21 17:53:37 UTC

Yes, me too, and one of the attractions of umra is that you can have
such discussions with a degree of politeness, although I find it's
pretty lonely usually on my side of the argument.
My stalurker seems to think this is a bad thing "Do you not wonder why
you (sic) behaviour is so different from others on UMRA? No need to
reply, just think about it." and doesn't realise that I do think about
that and whether it's worth staying very regularly. He might wonder
why the few umrats with similar views to mine have long gone if he's
been lurking long enough to remember them. They are sorely missed, if
not for their politics but for their very funny contributions,
But he didn't want to discuss it because "Frankly it's too much effort
to make a reasoned argument against someone who thinks copy-pasting
bile is "discussion"." when in fact an interesting discussion HAS
resulted, first with John Ashby and others and now with you Nick. Sigh.

I've had rather a rough week and have only just caught up with this thread.
I'm sorry you've been addressed in this way, Brritters. FWIW, I think
your lurker is talking a load of male gonads.
Firstly, it's not bile. It's a strongly argued point of view which
seems to be based on sound knowledge. I don't know whether it's all
absolutely accurate, nor whether I completely agree with all of its
conclusions but it's a perfectly legitimate argument.
Secondly, and more importantly, I completely agree about the value of
these discussions and I'm extremely glad you're here to have them. I
agree that the otherrats you refer to are a sad loss and I still miss
them greatly, so thanks for sticking around. And, BTW, your "behaviour"
isn't unumratic in any way, IMO.
So there.

<languid wave>
Once again, thanks Sid, for expressing very much what I was thinking but
had failed to put into words.

--
Happy hibernating and stay well,
best wishes, Serena
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, because you are crunchy and
taste good with ketchup.

Min

2020-06-21 23:44:51 UTC

Post by Serena Blanchflower

Yes, me too, and one of the attractions of umra is that you can have
such discussions with a degree of politeness, although I find it's
pretty lonely usually on my side of the argument.
My stalurker seems to think this is a bad thing "Do you not wonder why
you (sic) behaviour is so different from others on UMRA? No need to
reply, just think about it." and doesn't realise that I do think about
that and whether it's worth staying very regularly. He might wonder
why the few umrats with similar views to mine have long gone if he's
been lurking long enough to remember them. They are sorely missed, if
not for their politics but for their very funny contributions,
But he didn't want to discuss it because "Frankly it's too much effort
to make a reasoned argument against someone who thinks copy-pasting
bile is "discussion"." when in fact an interesting discussion HAS
resulted, first with John Ashby and others and now with you Nick. Sigh.

I've had rather a rough week and have only just caught up with this thread.
I'm sorry you've been addressed in this way, Brritters. FWIW, I think
your lurker is talking a load of male gonads.
Firstly, it's not bile. It's a strongly argued point of view which
seems to be based on sound knowledge. I don't know whether it's all
absolutely accurate, nor whether I completely agree with all of its
conclusions but it's a perfectly legitimate argument.
Secondly, and more importantly, I completely agree about the value of
these discussions and I'm extremely glad you're here to have them. I
agree that the otherrats you refer to are a sad loss and I still miss
them greatly, so thanks for sticking around. And, BTW, your "behaviour"
isn't unumratic in any way, IMO.
So there.

<languid wave>
Once again, thanks Sid, for expressing very much what I was thinking but
had failed to put into words.
--
Happy hibernating and stay well,
best wishes, Serena
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, because you are crunchy and
taste good with ketchup.

Indeed - I always appreciate your contributions, BrritSki. I too miss
those otherrats. One of the great things about umra is that even if people
do not agree, the vast majority are courteous. I was somewhat surprised
during Brexit, when people that knew me, who I'd had perfectly civilised
discussions with, posted some really nasty vitriol on FB. I didn't post
anything vitriolic about people that held different views.

--
Min

BrritSki

2020-06-22 09:24:54 UTC

Post by Serena Blanchflower

Post by Min

Yes, me too, and one of the attractions of umra is that you can have
such discussions with a degree of politeness, although I find it's
pretty lonely usually on my side of the argument.
My stalurker seems to think this is a bad thing "Do you not wonder why
you (sic) behaviour is so different from others on UMRA? No need to
reply, just think about it." and doesn't realise that I do think about
that and whether it's worth staying very regularly. He might wonder
why the few umrats with similar views to mine have long gone if he's
been lurking long enough to remember them. They are sorely missed, if
not for their politics but for their very funny contributions,
But he didn't want to discuss it because "Frankly it's too much effort
to make a reasoned argument against someone who thinks copy-pasting
bile is "discussion"." when in fact an interesting discussion HAS
resulted, first with John Ashby and others and now with you Nick. Sigh.

I've had rather a rough week and have only just caught up with this thread.
I'm sorry you've been addressed in this way, Brritters. FWIW, I think
your lurker is talking a load of male gonads.
Firstly, it's not bile. It's a strongly argued point of view which
seems to be based on sound knowledge. I don't know whether it's all
absolutely accurate, nor whether I completely agree with all of its
conclusions but it's a perfectly legitimate argument.
Secondly, and more importantly, I completely agree about the value of
these discussions and I'm extremely glad you're here to have them. I
agree that the otherrats you refer to are a sad loss and I still miss
them greatly, so thanks for sticking around. And, BTW, your "behaviour"
isn't unumratic in any way, IMO.
So there.

Thanks too to you and Serena...

John Ashby

2020-06-19 19:22:21 UTC

Post by Nick Odell
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 20:38:43 +0100, BrritSki

So it appears that Mr Fawkes was right. Not that the Apple/Android app
seems to be that successful either :/

Because, as a certain Dominic Cummings used to say (but seems to have
been distracted from), our Civil Service and Institutions are rubbish.
This appeared on Guido this afternoon. I 100% agree.
BOSS OF NHSX SHOULD BE FIRED OVER APP FIASCO
Matthew Gould is the CEO of ‘NHSX’, the Quango set up to “foster
innovation” in the NHS, despite the prior existence of NHS digital, who
already had the same mandate. Another expensive layer of civil servants
with little or no tech expertise in the NHS.
Gould is not a techie, he is a former UK ambassador to Israel and a
career diplomat with no background in the private sector or technology.
Gould is an old school friend of George Osborne. Osborne had former
Cabinet Secretary Jeremy Heywood appoint Gould to a role at DCMS despite
the lack of relevant experience. Gould likes to crow about the
‘UK-Israel tech hub’ he set up when UK ambassador to Israel. At DCMS,
Gould was supposed to manage government relations with ‘GAFAM’ (Google,
Apple, Facebook, Amazon and Microsoft). He spent a lot of taxpayers’
money flying business class to California, where he would apologise for
Brexit and then berate them about data privacy issues. Needless to say,
GAFAM’s senior execs like Zuckerberg ignored Gould’s requests for
meetings and fobbed him off on PR people like Nick Clegg. Gould felt
slighted and maintains a grudge against GAFAM.
Nonetheless, Osborne encouraged Matt Hancock to appointed Gould to be
‘CEO’ of NHSX. His appointment was greeted with a collective sigh of
despair across the tech-industry that a self-declared ‘tech bluffer’
with no real experience got the £150,000 job. “Let’s be clear” as Matt
Hancock likes to say, it is Matthew Gould that has really screwed up the
NHS Covid tracing app. Apple is not, as he is trying to spin, to blame.
Gould chose to pursue a policy of “Build rather than Buy” against the
advice of everyone who did not work for him. You had two of the world’s
largest technology companies joining forces to develop a decentralised,
privacy-focused application that most of the world has rolled out in
order to trace Coronavirus outbreaks. On the other hand, you have
Gould’s team at NHSX, within a government department, outsourcing the
build to external contractors based in Switzerland. Who could have
predicted it would go wrong? Everyone.
The decision to build the software rather than buy it in – especially as
it was already close to existing at the time – was Gould’s decision. It
was a decision made for his and NHSX’s glory more than the public
interest. Dominic Cummings when he was outside government would rail in
blogs about the culture of the Civil Service, where Oxbridge bluffers
with no clue would fail and face no consequences. Gould, who read
philosophy and divinity at Cambridge, is a classic example. Gould should
be fired over this fiasco…

The Civil Service has been being eviscerated and emasculated since
Thatcher's time through politically motivated appointments. Once upon a
time the CS ran its recruitment and promotion policies reasonably
independently, with a philosophy of enabling but not directing
Government. Slowly that has been blurred.

It should not have mattered that Gould was not a techie if only he had
enough humility to listen to the techies and enough intelligence to
understand them. But I suspect that the techies around him, if they knew
what they were talking about couldn't put it in terms he could
understand (cf CP Snow's Two Cultures - Snow of course was a successful
Civil Servant as was his hero, Lewis Eliot)

Cummings could never have coped with the Civil Service of Snow's time,
nor yet with Sir Humphrey Appleby and the Circumlocution Office.

john

BrritSki

2020-06-19 19:29:12 UTC

On 19/06/2020 20:22, John Ashby wrote:
<mercy snip>

Post by John Ashby
The Civil Service has been being eviscerated and emasculated since
Thatcher's time through politically motivated appointments. Once upon a
time the CS ran its recruitment and promotion policies reasonably
independently, with a philosophy of enabling but not directing
Government. Slowly that has been blurred.

Yes, I agree with that. Not sure whose fault it was though.

Post by John Ashby
It should not have mattered that Gould was not a techie if only he had
enough humility to listen to the techies and enough intelligence to
understand them. But I suspect that the techies around him, if they knew
what they were talking about couldn't put it in terms he could
understand

Also agreed. But as someone who regularly had/s to explain techie
matters to intelligent non-techies (e.g. waife), if you CANNOT explain
something easily, I suspect the expertise of the explainer.

Post by John Ashby
Cummings could never have coped with the Civil Service of Snow's time,
nor yet with Sir Humphrey Appleby and the Circumlocution Office.

Maybe. But without the changes mentioned in yor first para, DC might not
have found a niche.

John Ashby

2020-06-19 19:32:38 UTC

Post by BrritSki
<mercy snip>

Post by John Ashby
The Civil Service has been being eviscerated and emasculated since
Thatcher's time through politically motivated appointments. Once upon
a time the CS ran its recruitment and promotion policies reasonably
independently, with a philosophy of enabling but not directing
Government. Slowly that has been blurred.

Yes, I agree with that. Not sure whose fault it was though.

Everybody's.

Post by John Ashby
It should not have mattered that Gould was not a techie if only he had
enough humility to listen to the techies and enough intelligence to
understand them. But I suspect that the techies around him, if they
knew what they were talking about couldn't put it in terms he could
understand

Also agreed. But as someone who regularly had/s to explain techie
matters to intelligent non-techies (e.g. waife), if you CANNOT explain
something easily, I suspect the expertise of the explainer.

Niels Bohr said much the same. Have you ever seen Copenhagen?

Post by John Ashby
Cummings could never have coped with the Civil Service of Snow's time,
nor yet with Sir Humphrey Appleby and the Circumlocution Office.

Maybe. But without the changes mentioned in yor first para, DC might not
have found a niche.

Agreed. We must stop meeting like this.

john

BrritSki

2020-06-19 19:56:41 UTC

Post by BrritSki
<mercy snip>

Post by John Ashby
The Civil Service has been being eviscerated and emasculated since
Thatcher's time through politically motivated appointments. Once upon
a time the CS ran its recruitment and promotion policies reasonably
independently, with a philosophy of enabling but not directing
Government. Slowly that has been blurred.

Yes, I agree with that. Not sure whose fault it was though.

Everybody's.

Post by John Ashby
It should not have mattered that Gould was not a techie if only he
had enough humility to listen to the techies and enough intelligence
to understand them. But I suspect that the techies around him, if
they knew what they were talking about couldn't put it in terms he
could understand

Also agreed. But as someone who regularly had/s to explain techie
matters to intelligent non-techies (e.g. waife), if you CANNOT explain
something easily, I suspect the expertise of the explainer.

Niels Bohr said much the same. Have you ever seen Copenhagen?

Many times. But not the play ;) I'd like to though...

Post by John Ashby
Cummings could never have coped with the Civil Service of Snow's
time, nor yet with Sir Humphrey Appleby and the Circumlocution Office.

Maybe. But without the changes mentioned in yor first para, DC might
not have found a niche.

Agreed. We must stop meeting like this.

Well, at least we have a decent contact tracing app. Matt's latest
cartoon suggest a ball of string. I was wondering about a supply of
breadcrumbs or small white stones...

Sam Plusnet

2020-06-19 21:44:12 UTC

Post by BrritSki
Because, as a certain Dominic Cummings used to say (but seems to have
been distracted from), our Civil Service and Institutions are rubbish.
This appeared on Guido this afternoon. I 100% agree.
BOSS OF NHSX SHOULD BE FIRED OVER APP FIASCO
Matthew Gould is the CEO of ‘NHSX’, the Quango set up to “foster
innovation” in the NHS, despite the prior existence of NHS digital, who
already had the same mandate. Another expensive layer of civil servants
with little or no tech expertise in the NHS.

A Quango is set up - by the Minister of Health - and a political pal is
put in charge - based (as you point out) certainly not on what he knows,
so we assume it is who he knows.
As a result, the whole thing is a pile of <insert simile here>.

Based on this you curse the civil service??

--
Sam Plusnet

BrritSki

2020-06-20 07:26:12 UTC

Post by BrritSki
Because, as a certain Dominic Cummings used to say (but seems to have
been distracted from), our Civil Service and Institutions are rubbish.
This appeared on Guido this afternoon. I 100% agree.
BOSS OF NHSX SHOULD BE FIRED OVER APP FIASCO
Matthew Gould is the CEO of ‘NHSX’, the Quango set up to “foster
innovation” in the NHS, despite the prior existence of NHS digital,
who already had the same mandate. Another expensive layer of civil
servants with little or no tech expertise in the NHS.

Well this is just one example of the many that have become very obvious
in the Covid crisis. This is not to excuse the politicians who have been
pretty useless also.

krw

2020-06-22 09:43:57 UTC

This is not to excuse the politicians who have been pretty useless also.

Personal axe grinding time.
1. The original post by BrittSki contains a story which if not entirely
accurate sounds like a potential explanation of events which is plausible.

2. Come on lurker talk to all of us

3. The absence of any competent scientist or individual in the Covid
Cabinet with that type of training able to question or understand the
science is a deep concern - the individuals are drawn from too small a pool.

4. Why is that pool so small? Because of the absence of an education
system which spots talent at the age of 11 and engineers social
mobility, it used to be called grammar schools.

5. And if a system like that existed now to identify groups then
perhaps it could break down estate gangs and the like by spotting the
clever individuals and getting them into a thriving challenging
environment so they do not use their brain power trading drugs, knives etc.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

BrritSki

2020-06-22 09:51:46 UTC

This is not to excuse the politicians who have been pretty useless also.

Personal axe grinding time.
1. The original post by BrittSki contains a story which if not entirely
accurate sounds like a potential explanation of events which is plausible.
2. Come on lurker talk to all of us
3. The absence of any competent scientist or individual in the Covid
Cabinet with that type of training able to question or understand the
science is a deep concern - the individuals are drawn from too small a pool.
4. Why is that pool so small? Because of the absence of an education
system which spots talent at the age of 11 and engineers social
mobility, it used to be called grammar schools.
5. And if a system like that existed now to identify groups then
perhaps it could break down estate gangs and the like by spotting the
clever individuals and getting them into a thriving challenging
environment so they do not use their brain power trading drugs, knives etc.

Hello worms, your various cans are now well and truly open :)

In response:
1, 2 & 5 yes.
3. Bring back Maggie !
4. As a GS boy, completely agree.

John Ashby

2020-06-22 11:34:48 UTC

This is not to excuse the politicians who have been pretty useless also.

Personal axe grinding time.
1. The original post by BrittSki contains a story which if not
entirely accurate sounds like a potential explanation of events which
is plausible.
2. Come on lurker talk to all of us
3. The absence of any competent scientist or individual in the Covid
Cabinet with that type of training able to question or understand the
science is a deep concern - the individuals are drawn from too small a pool.
4. Why is that pool so small? Because of the absence of an education
system which spots talent at the age of 11 and engineers social
mobility, it used to be called grammar schools.
5. And if a system like that existed now to identify groups then
perhaps it could break down estate gangs and the like by spotting the
clever individuals and getting them into a thriving challenging
environment so they do not use their brain power trading drugs, knives etc.

Hello worms, your various cans are now well and truly open :)
1, 2 & 5 yes.
3. Bring back Maggie !
4. As a GS boy, completely agree.

The problem with the GS system was not the identification of talented
children and their nurturing, it was the abandonment of the rest to a
(perceived) inferior education with little room for later adjustment.

You want worms, you'll get worms.

john

Vicky Ayech

2020-06-22 12:54:30 UTC

This is not to excuse the politicians who have been pretty useless also.

Personal axe grinding time.
1. The original post by BrittSki contains a story which if not
entirely accurate sounds like a potential explanation of events which
is plausible.
2. Come on lurker talk to all of us
3. The absence of any competent scientist or individual in the Covid
Cabinet with that type of training able to question or understand the
science is a deep concern - the individuals are drawn from too small a pool.
4. Why is that pool so small? Because of the absence of an education
system which spots talent at the age of 11 and engineers social
mobility, it used to be called grammar schools.
5. And if a system like that existed now to identify groups then
perhaps it could break down estate gangs and the like by spotting the
clever individuals and getting them into a thriving challenging
environment so they do not use their brain power trading drugs, knives etc.

Hello worms, your various cans are now well and truly open :)
1, 2 & 5 yes.
3. Bring back Maggie !
4. As a GS boy, completely agree.

I benefitted from the system too but then it changed before my kids
got to it. I have to amit the selection process was not fair really.
It missed many clever poor children as it was biassed towards
middle-class children.

krw

2020-06-22 13:22:27 UTC

Post by Vicky Ayech
I benefitted from the system too but then it changed before my kids
got to it. I have to amit the selection process was not fair really.
It missed many clever poor children as it was biassed towards
middle-class children.

The selection was purely exam based so how can it be biased?

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

Penny

2020-06-22 13:41:21 UTC

On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 14:22:27 +0100, krw <***@whitnet.uk> scrawled in the
dust...

The selection was purely exam based so how can it be biased?

Selection was by exam *and* gender (still is, where it exists) based upon
the top n% from each group - I think it was 25% BIMBAM. The pass mark was
different (lower) for boys.

My first Grammar school was adjacent to a high school (or whatever they
called them then). Pupils from there often moved to the Grammar for A
levels.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Mike Ruddock

2020-06-22 14:25:29 UTC

Post by Penny
dust...

The selection was purely exam based so how can it be biased?

Selection was by exam *and* gender (still is, where it exists) based upon
the top n% from each group - I think it was 25% BIMBAM. The pass mark was
different (lower) for boys.
My first Grammar school was adjacent to a high school (or whatever they
called them then). Pupils from there often moved to the Grammar for A
levels.

I know for a fact (having had to administer part of an 11+ exam when i
was Deputy Head at a GS) that as far as the "Intelligence" part of the
test was concerned, the instructions said that the scores of girls had
to be increased by a small percentage to compensate for some inaccuracy
of the test in judging girls' "intelligence".
Whether the scores of boys on other parts of the tests were shifted in
the opposite direction I can't say never having had to deal with other
components of the 11+

Mike Ruddock

John Ashby

2020-06-22 15:04:59 UTC

The selection was purely exam based so how can it be biased?

In the same way opinion polls can be skewed by the choice and phrasing
of questions.

john

Penny

2020-06-22 17:51:25 UTC

On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 16:04:59 +0100, John Ashby <***@yahoo.com>
scrawled in the dust...

The selection was purely exam based so how can it be biased?

In the same way opinion polls can be skewed by the choice and phrasing
of questions.

Q. If you have 5 apples and you give 3 away, how many have you got left?
A. None, I was hungry.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

krw

2020-06-22 13:21:43 UTC

it was the abandonment of the rest to a (perceived) inferior education
with little room for later adjustment.

A properly streamed and taught groupings could achieve excellent results
alongside gs, which was what the good sm did.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

John Ashby

2020-06-22 15:16:16 UTC

it was the abandonment of the rest to a (perceived) inferior education
with little room for later adjustment.

A properly streamed and taught groupings could achieve excellent results
alongside gs, which was what the good sm did.

The good ones may have done, but even they were hampered because the
grammars creamed off not only the good pupils but also the best
teachers, and so even if a SecMod pupil was brilliant at Maths but
mediocre in English and Humanities, he or she did not have access to
teaching that would bring a top O-level.

There is also a strong cohort factor - if you are surrounded by other
enthusiastic learners you will learn better and faster than if your
cohort is disruptive or disengaged. As you say, proper streaming and
teaching could have compensated for that, but it was and is an uphill
struggle.

john

Penny

2020-06-22 17:57:08 UTC

On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 16:16:16 +0100, John Ashby <***@yahoo.com>
scrawled in the dust...

it was the abandonment of the rest to a (perceived) inferior education
with little room for later adjustment.

A properly streamed and taught groupings could achieve excellent results
alongside gs, which was what the good sm did.

The good ones may have done, but even they were hampered because the
grammars creamed off not only the good pupils but also the best
teachers,

Not to mention better funding - or that's the case in Kent to this day.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

krw

2020-06-22 21:09:40 UTC

it was the abandonment of the rest to a (perceived) inferior
education with little room for later adjustment.

A properly streamed and taught groupings could achieve excellent
results alongside gs, which was what the good sm did.

The good ones may have done, but even they were hampered because the
grammars creamed off not only the good pupils but also the best
teachers, and so even if a SecMod pupil was brilliant at Maths but
mediocre in English and Humanities, he or she did not have access to
teaching that would bring a top O-level.
There is also a strong cohort factor - if you are surrounded by other
enthusiastic learners you will learn better and faster than if your
cohort is disruptive or disengaged. As you say, proper streaming and
teaching could have compensated for that, but it was and is an uphill
struggle.
john

Which I do not deny. Eldest d is bright (potentially dyslexic but never
diagnosed). Because she got bored in class she was regarded as a
nuisance. I suspect if she has gone to gs like d#2 her brain would have
been occupied and she would not have been a nuisance. No way of knowing.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

Kate B

2020-06-22 15:24:21 UTC

it was the abandonment of the rest to a (perceived) inferior education
with little room for later adjustment.

A properly streamed and taught groupings could achieve excellent results
alongside gs, which was what the good sm did.

And that was what the comprehensives were supposed to do too. But like
the old secondary moderns and like many academies today, it depended and
depends entirely on a variety of variables such as catchment area
(single-occupation houses with books in every room? or difficult estates
with nowhere to do your homework in peace and the local library closed?)
and teaching staff (lazy sods who follow the same lesson programmes
they've been teaching for years? or imaginative and engaged teachers who
tailor everything to the needs of the class?) and general funding
(well-endowed establishment with spare space for playing fields and new
libraries? Cramped sixties school falling to bits and nowhere to exapnd
to except over the playground?)

There is simply no legislation or system that will replace the good
teacher or the well-supported school. Since these tend to be in
better-off areas, the poor - however bright - tend to miss out.

--
Kate B
London

Jim Easterbrook

2020-06-22 15:55:25 UTC

it was the abandonment of the rest to a (perceived) inferior education
with little room for later adjustment.

A properly streamed and taught groupings could achieve excellent
results alongside gs, which was what the good sm did.

And that was what the comprehensives were supposed to do too. But like
the old secondary moderns and like many academies today, it depended and
depends entirely on a variety of variables such as catchment area
(single-occupation houses with books in every room? or difficult estates
with nowhere to do your homework in peace and the local library closed?)
and teaching staff (lazy sods who follow the same lesson programmes
they've been teaching for years? or imaginative and engaged teachers who
tailor everything to the needs of the class?) and general funding
(well-endowed establishment with spare space for playing fields and new
libraries? Cramped sixties school falling to bits and nowhere to exapnd
to except over the playground?)
There is simply no legislation or system that will replace the good
teacher or the well-supported school. Since these tend to be in
better-off areas, the poor - however bright - tend to miss out.

Enthusiastic wave to all that. Having been to a well funded comprehensive
with excellent staff I know how well comprehensive education can work.

--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0

Sid Nuncius

2020-06-22 17:44:13 UTC

it was the abandonment of the rest to a (perceived) inferior education
with little room for later adjustment.

A properly streamed and taught groupings could achieve excellent
results alongside gs, which was what the good sm did.

And that was what the comprehensives were supposed to do too. But like
the old secondary moderns and like many academies today, it depended and
depends entirely on a variety of variables such as catchment area
(single-occupation houses with books in every room? or difficult estates
with nowhere to do your homework in peace and the local library closed?)
and teaching staff (lazy sods who follow the same lesson programmes
they've been teaching for years? or imaginative and engaged teachers who
tailor everything to the needs of the class?) and general funding
(well-endowed establishment with spare space for playing fields and new
libraries? Cramped sixties school falling to bits and nowhere to exapnd
to except over the playground?)
There is simply no legislation or system that will replace the good
teacher or the well-supported school. Since these tend to be in
better-off areas, the poor - however bright - tend to miss out.

Enthusiastic wave to all that. Having been to a well funded comprehensive
with excellent staff I know how well comprehensive education can work.

Another enthusiastic wave from me. I went to a grammar school, then a
private school and have reason to be very grateful to both. I elected
to spend my career teaching in comprehensives in order to try to give
back to everyone some of the benefits I received. I'm still in favour
of good quality comprehensive education based on those experiences.

I also think that "spotting talent at 11" sounds great, but talent isn't
always apparent at that age by any means - indeed it often isn't, IME.
My father, for example, was raised in a poor working class family,
failed his 11+ because he had no experience of exams an was intimidated
by the environment in which he had to sit it and went to a Sec Mod. He
left at 15 and became an apprentice joiner. It was only because he
developed polio and couldn't do that any more that he went to night
school (supported by my gran doing extra cleaning work), did his
"matric" and got into university. He became a Professor with an
international reputation.

So, by the time I was doing my 11+, O Levels and A Levels I had a room
and desk of my own in a house full of books where learning was
supported, valued and encouraged. I passed my 11+ and took a
traditional path to university. I worked boodly hard to earn my
academic successes, but I am acutely aware of the huge head start my
background gave me.

No system is perfect and some people will probably always get an unfair
deal. I think comprehensives can give a fantastic education and are
much fairer. I think they also distribute any residual unfairness
rather more fairly.

--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)

John Ashby

2020-06-22 18:54:17 UTC

it was the abandonment of the rest to a (perceived) inferior education
with little room for later adjustment.

A properly streamed and taught groupings could achieve excellent
results alongside gs, which was what the good sm did.

And that was what the comprehensives were supposed to do too. But like
the old secondary moderns and like many academies today, it depended and
depends entirely on a variety of variables such as catchment area
(single-occupation houses with books in every room? or difficult estates
with nowhere to do your homework in peace and the local library closed?)
and teaching staff (lazy sods who follow the same lesson programmes
they've been teaching for years? or imaginative and engaged teachers who
tailor everything to the needs of the class?) and general funding
(well-endowed establishment with spare space for playing fields and new
libraries? Cramped sixties school falling to bits and nowhere to exapnd
to except over the playground?)
There is simply no legislation or system that will replace the good
teacher or the well-supported school. Since these tend to be in
better-off areas, the poor - however bright - tend to miss out.

Enthusiastic wave to all that. Having been to a well funded comprehensive
with excellent staff I know how well comprehensive education can work.

Another enthusiastic wave from me. I went to a grammar school, then a
private school and have reason to be very grateful to both. I elected
to spend my career teaching in comprehensives in order to try to give
back to everyone some of the benefits I received. I'm still in favour
of good quality comprehensive education based on those experiences.
I also think that "spotting talent at 11" sounds great, but talent isn't
always apparent at that age by any means - indeed it often isn't, IME.
My father, for example, was raised in a poor working class family,
failed his 11+ because he had no experience of exams an was intimidated
by the environment in which he had to sit it and went to a Sec Mod. He
left at 15 and became an apprentice joiner. It was only because he
developed polio and couldn't do that any more that he went to night
school (supported by my gran doing extra cleaning work), did his
"matric" and got into university. He became a Professor with an
international reputation.
So, by the time I was doing my 11+, O Levels and A Levels I had a room
and desk of my own in a house full of books where learning was
supported, valued and encouraged. I passed my 11+ and took a
traditional path to university.

I am always interested by how many of Jim al-Khalili's guests on The
Life Scientific have reached the top of their academic profession by
anything but the traditional path to university. So many "left school
without qualifications", then took a job as a Lab Assistant or went to
evening classes. Talent is not always recognised or even recognisable.

john

krw

2020-06-22 21:18:21 UTC

So many "left school without qualifications", then took a job as a Lab
Assistant or went to evening classes.

And a recent case in point (for those who did not watch The Salisbury
Poisonings I have been quite touched by the content) Tracy Daszkiewicz
who started working life as a health clinic receptionist with three
daughters and as a single mum and then got a degree in Social Work.

If you have not seen the three programmes they are a testament to how
trace and track should be applied amongst other lessons.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

BrritSki

2020-06-23 07:54:27 UTC

it was the abandonment of the rest to a (perceived) inferior education
with little room for later adjustment.

A properly streamed and taught groupings could achieve excellent
results alongside gs, which was what the good sm did.

And that was what the comprehensives were supposed to do too. But like
the old secondary moderns and like many academies today, it depended and
depends entirely on a variety of variables such as catchment area
(single-occupation houses with books in every room? or difficult estates
with nowhere to do your homework in peace and the local library closed?)
and teaching staff (lazy sods who follow the same lesson programmes
they've been teaching for years? or imaginative and engaged teachers who
tailor everything to the needs of the class?) and general funding
(well-endowed establishment with spare space for playing fields and new
libraries? Cramped sixties school falling to bits and nowhere to exapnd
to except over the playground?)
There is simply no legislation or system that will replace the good
teacher or the well-supported school. Since these tend to be in
better-off areas, the poor - however bright - tend to miss out.

Enthusiastic wave to all that. Having been to a well funded comprehensive
with excellent staff I know how well comprehensive education can work.

Another enthusiastic wave from me. I went to a grammar school, then a
private school and have reason to be very grateful to both. I elected
to spend my career teaching in comprehensives in order to try to give
back to everyone some of the benefits I received. I'm still in favour
of good quality comprehensive education based on those experiences.
I also think that "spotting talent at 11" sounds great, but talent isn't
always apparent at that age by any means - indeed it often isn't, IME.
My father, for example, was raised in a poor working class family,
failed his 11+ because he had no experience of exams an was intimidated
by the environment in which he had to sit it and went to a Sec Mod. He
left at 15 and became an apprentice joiner. It was only because he
developed polio and couldn't do that any more that he went to night
school (supported by my gran doing extra cleaning work), did his
"matric" and got into university. He became a Professor with an
international reputation.
So, by the time I was doing my 11+, O Levels and A Levels I had a room
and desk of my own in a house full of books where learning was
supported, valued and encouraged. I passed my 11+ and took a
traditional path to university. I worked boodly hard to earn my
academic successes, but I am acutely aware of the huge head start my
background gave me.
No system is perfect and some people will probably always get an unfair
deal. I think comprehensives can give a fantastic education and are
much fairer. I think they also distribute any residual unfairness
rather more fairly.

I should qualify my earlier support of Grammar Schools as I agree with
much of the above. My real complaint was that we levelled down rather
than aspired to making all schools as good (FSVO "good") as them.

We decided to leave France when BrratSki was 7 because we felt that the
French system didn't suit him. It was very good for many students, but
overly didactic ioo. We were very lucky when we came back, first with
the lovely little village school where we had kept a house just north of
Bedford, where the head and teachers did a great job of integrating them
back in and improving their English [1].

Later that year we moved to a bigger house in Bedford itself and their
educational luck continued as they attended the 3 best schools in the LA
at the time, including a Comprehensive upper run by a superb head and
where there was a lot of competition from Public School (there are 4 in
Bedford) students wanting to study in their 6th form.

ND switched into teaching after a couple of years in Events Management
after her degree and did her umbrella (educational training) at a very
challenging inner city secondary school in Balham. After 3 years there
she went to United World Colleges in Singapore which was a completely
different world, with challenges of its own. While in Italy she switched
to Junior school and that is where she is still teaching now, although
she is changing jobs this summer to be a peripatetic teacher for
children in hospital or long-term sick at home.

[1] French was their first language as they were 2 and 4 months when we
went and of course there was no internet then so all TV in French, all
their friends were French etc. They spoke English with us at home, but
with a distinct accent, so when we went back we were all keen to improve
their English and let the French drop. ND had a 2 year gap before she
did it at school, so lost it completely and did German for GCSE, but she
picked up Italian very quickly so I think has an ear for languages
still. BS started French at school the summer we ame back, but of course
spoke it far better than the teacher, so didn't bother to work and had a
rather indifferent GCSE result. He still has a lovely accent though and
the vocab. would come back very quickly if he was there for any time we
think...

Mike

2020-06-23 08:06:48 UTC

it was the abandonment of the rest to a (perceived) inferior education
with little room for later adjustment.

A properly streamed and taught groupings could achieve excellent
results alongside gs, which was what the good sm did.

And that was what the comprehensives were supposed to do too. But like
the old secondary moderns and like many academies today, it depended and
depends entirely on a variety of variables such as catchment area
(single-occupation houses with books in every room? or difficult estates
with nowhere to do your homework in peace and the local library closed?)
and teaching staff (lazy sods who follow the same lesson programmes
they've been teaching for years? or imaginative and engaged teachers who
tailor everything to the needs of the class?) and general funding
(well-endowed establishment with spare space for playing fields and new
libraries? Cramped sixties school falling to bits and nowhere to exapnd
to except over the playground?)
There is simply no legislation or system that will replace the good
teacher or the well-supported school. Since these tend to be in
better-off areas, the poor - however bright - tend to miss out.

Enthusiastic wave to all that. Having been to a well funded comprehensive
with excellent staff I know how well comprehensive education can work.

Another enthusiastic wave from me. I went to a grammar school, then a
private school and have reason to be very grateful to both. I elected
to spend my career teaching in comprehensives in order to try to give
back to everyone some of the benefits I received. I'm still in favour
of good quality comprehensive education based on those experiences.
I also think that "spotting talent at 11" sounds great, but talent isn't
always apparent at that age by any means - indeed it often isn't, IME.
My father, for example, was raised in a poor working class family,
failed his 11+ because he had no experience of exams an was intimidated
by the environment in which he had to sit it and went to a Sec Mod. He
left at 15 and became an apprentice joiner. It was only because he
developed polio and couldn't do that any more that he went to night
school (supported by my gran doing extra cleaning work), did his
"matric" and got into university. He became a Professor with an
international reputation.
So, by the time I was doing my 11+, O Levels and A Levels I had a room
and desk of my own in a house full of books where learning was
supported, valued and encouraged. I passed my 11+ and took a
traditional path to university. I worked boodly hard to earn my
academic successes, but I am acutely aware of the huge head start my
background gave me.
No system is perfect and some people will probably always get an unfair
deal. I think comprehensives can give a fantastic education and are
much fairer. I think they also distribute any residual unfairness
rather more fairly.

In my own case, I attended several primary schools where my visual
impairment was neither understood or catered for. My education really
started at 9 and a narf when I went to boarding school. I took my 11+ at
ten and a narf and failed miserably. By the age of 12, I had a reading age
of 16 and I recall that at 15, I stood out in front of the class and gave a
‘lecture’ on jet propulsion based on a BBC Schools TV. programme we had
just watched. I left school at 15 and 3/4 to start work in the advertising
office of the Western Gazette; I didn’t have a qualification to my name.

Some 6 years later whilst doing an apprenticeship in precision engineering,
I tried attending day release and night school as an adjunct to my daytime
learning. Before this I had tried to do a Wolsey Hall correspondences
course for ‘O’ Level maths but gave this up as I found it took too much of
my time as I usually aimed for 97-99% in my marks. The night school taught
me very little as this session was technical drawing and I had great
difficulty seeing lines or drawing them fine enough for the requirements of
the course. I found the majority of ‘day releasers’ were only regarding the
day as ‘a day off’ and just larked about all the time as they had no
interest whatsoever in learning anyway.

My Father died during my indentured years and I needed to earn a higher
level of pay as my Mother could not afford to support me; so I went to work
as a ‘semi skilled’ machinist at Westland Helicopters. Some years later I
studied for my City & Guilds 730 course FETC, and this is my only
qualification - though I did teach students for some years at College then
University. ‘Tis a strange world!

--
Toodle Pip

Vicky Ayech

2020-06-23 08:40:44 UTC

Post by Mike
In my own case, I attended several primary schools where my visual
impairment was neither understood or catered for. My education really
started at 9 and a narf when I went to boarding school. I took my 11+ at
ten and a narf and failed miserably. By the age of 12, I had a reading age
of 16 and I recall that at 15, I stood out in front of the class and gave a
lecture on jet propulsion based on a BBC Schools TV. programme we had
just watched. I left school at 15 and 3/4 to start work in the advertising
office of the Western Gazette; I didnt have a qualification to my name.
Some 6 years later whilst doing an apprenticeship in precision engineering,
I tried attending day release and night school as an adjunct to my daytime
learning. Before this I had tried to do a Wolsey Hall correspondences
course for O Level maths but gave this up as I found it took too much of
my time as I usually aimed for 97-99% in my marks. The night school taught
me very little as this session was technical drawing and I had great
difficulty seeing lines or drawing them fine enough for the requirements of
the course. I found the majority of day releasers were only regarding the
day as a day off and just larked about all the time as they had no
interest whatsoever in learning anyway.
My Father died during my indentured years and I needed to earn a higher
level of pay as my Mother could not afford to support me; so I went to work
as a semi skilled machinist at Westland Helicopters. Some years later I
studied for my City & Guilds 730 course FETC, and this is my only
qualification - though I did teach students for some years at College then
University. Tis a strange world!
--
Toodle Pip

B's schooling was similarly unhelpful. They just thought him stupid as
nobody did a dyslexia assessment and he taught himself to read finally
at around 13, never got any help in school and left with no GCSEs or
any other qualification. He was a pro pool player for some years,
doing pretty well, and was persuaded to go to college and do an access
course in his 20s, went on then to get a joint Criminology and
Psychology Honours, 2.1, at Middlesex University and was offered an MA
place.

Vicky Ayech

2020-06-22 16:39:41 UTC

it was the abandonment of the rest to a (perceived) inferior education
with little room for later adjustment.

A properly streamed and taught groupings could achieve excellent results
alongside gs, which was what the good sm did.

And that was what the comprehensives were supposed to do too. But like
the old secondary moderns and like many academies today, it depended and
depends entirely on a variety of variables such as catchment area
(single-occupation houses with books in every room? or difficult estates
with nowhere to do your homework in peace and the local library closed?)
and teaching staff (lazy sods who follow the same lesson programmes
they've been teaching for years? or imaginative and engaged teachers who
tailor everything to the needs of the class?) and general funding
(well-endowed establishment with spare space for playing fields and new
libraries? Cramped sixties school falling to bits and nowhere to exapnd
to except over the playground?)
There is simply no legislation or system that will replace the good
teacher or the well-supported school. Since these tend to be in
better-off areas, the poor - however bright - tend to miss out.

Shirley Williams, who helped dismangle the GSs, sent her kids to
private schools. I sent my daughters to one too. From family
experience, when the crunch arrives the only thing you can guarantee
to take with you is a good education. As good as you can manage to
give your kids.

BrritSki

2020-06-22 17:14:10 UTC

I won't mention the source in case it triggers more "bile" :/

" [1]
The health minister in the Lords, Lord Bethell, has revealed the failed
NHSX COVID-tracing app has cost the taxpayer £11.8 million. Millions
that could have been saved had anyone in government – especially the CEO
of NHSX Matthew Gould – listened to all the experts saying the app was
never going to work…

UPDATE: Assuming a £100 per hour rate for developers that equates to
118,000 man hours. Which seems impossible. Even if we double the rate to
£200 per hour that suggests 59,000 man hours. How many people were
working on the project for 3 months? This needs auditing…
"

Indeed.

[1] Dumb double quotes...

John Ashby

2020-06-22 18:56:52 UTC

I won't mention the source in case it triggers more "bile" :/
" [1]
The health minister in the Lords, Lord Bethell, has revealed the failed
NHSX COVID-tracing app has cost the taxpayer £11.8 million. Millions
that could have been saved had anyone in government – especially the CEO
of NHSX Matthew Gould – listened to all the experts saying the app was
never going to work…
UPDATE: Assuming a £100 per hour rate for developers that equates to
118,000 man hours. Which seems impossible. Even if we double the rate to
£200 per hour that suggests 59,000 man hours. How many people were
working on the project for 3 months? This needs auditing…
"
Indeed.
[1] Dumb double quotes...

And there seems to be great resistance to taking on any of several
open-source apps (including the German one) and adapting them (which
probably means tweaking the distance/time parameters and translating the
messages).

john

Paul Herber

2020-06-22 19:02:45 UTC

I won't mention the source in case it triggers more "bile" :/
" [1]
The health minister in the Lords, Lord Bethell, has revealed the failed
NHSX COVID-tracing app has cost the taxpayer £11.8 million. Millions
that could have been saved had anyone in government especially the CEO
of NHSX Matthew Gould listened to all the experts saying the app was
never going to work
UPDATE: Assuming a £100 per hour rate for developers that equates to
118,000 man hours. Which seems impossible. Even if we double the rate to
£200 per hour that suggests 59,000 man hours. How many people were
working on the project for 3 months? This needs auditing
"
Indeed.
[1] Dumb double quotes...

You need to be very aware of the dangers of getting locked-in to open source software!
<sarcasm alert>

--
Regards, Paul Herber
https://www.paulherber.co.uk/

BrritSki

2020-06-23 07:56:37 UTC

I won't mention the source in case it triggers more "bile" :/
" [1]
The health minister in the Lords, Lord Bethell, has revealed the
failed NHSX COVID-tracing app has cost the taxpayer £11.8 million.
Millions that could have been saved had anyone in government –
especially the CEO of NHSX Matthew Gould – listened to all the experts
saying the app was never going to work…
UPDATE: Assuming a £100 per hour rate for developers that equates to
118,000 man hours. Which seems impossible. Even if we double the rate
to £200 per hour that suggests 59,000 man hours. How many people were
working on the project for 3 months? This needs auditing…
"
Indeed.
[1] Dumb double quotes...

The worrying thing about the Apple/Android app is that it apparently
can't tell the difference between a phone at 3m held in the hand and one
at 1m in a pocket...

Clive Arthur

2020-06-25 10:40:44 UTC

On 23/06/2020 08:56, BrritSki wrote:

<snip>

Post by BrritSki
The worrying thing about the Apple/Android app is that it apparently
can't tell the difference between a phone at 3m held in the hand and one
at 1m in a pocket...

I'm not sure that it possibly could. You can only work with the
hardware you have.

--
Cheers
Clive

BrritSki

2020-06-25 12:17:24 UTC

Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>

Post by BrritSki
The worrying thing about the Apple/Android app is that it apparently
can't tell the difference between a phone at 3m held in the hand and
one at 1m in a pocket...

I'm not sure that it possibly could. You can only work with the
hardware you have.

The claim [1] was that the NHSX algorithm was smarter.

[1] But I have no idea if that was true or spin...

Paul Herber

2020-06-25 12:50:40 UTC

Post by Clive Arthur
<snip>

Post by BrritSki
The worrying thing about the Apple/Android app is that it apparently
can't tell the difference between a phone at 3m held in the hand and
one at 1m in a pocket...

I'm not sure that it possibly could. You can only work with the
hardware you have.

The claim [1] was that the NHSX algorithm was smarter.
[1] But I have no idea if that was true or spin...

That Donald makes similar claims about himself.

--
Regards, Paul Herber
https://www.paulherber.co.uk/

Sam Plusnet

2020-06-25 21:54:42 UTC

Post by Paul Herber

Post by BrritSki
The claim [1] was that the NHSX algorithm was smarter.
[1] But I have no idea if that was true or spin...

That Donald makes similar claims about himself.

Someone put together a series of video clips of The Donald saying
wonderful things about some new person being appointed to a government post.
"Wonderful" "The best" "Terrific!" "Great Guy!".
Each clip was followed by another of him heaping insults on the same
person, a few months later when they're fired or resign in despair.

--
Sam Plusnet

Jim Easterbrook

2020-06-25 22:03:12 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
Someone put together a series of video clips of The Donald saying
wonderful things about some new person being appointed to a government post.
"Wonderful" "The best" "Terrific!" "Great Guy!".
Each clip was followed by another of him heaping insults on the same
person, a few months later when they're fired or resign in despair.

That Donald is such a brilliant businessman he can always spot the best
candidate for a job. Until "I gave him a chance, he wasn't that great, I
tried to help him."

Although he hasn't realised what duffers his family are yet.

--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0

Sam Plusnet

2020-06-26 21:09:38 UTC

That Donald is such a brilliant businessman he can always spot the best
candidate for a job. Until "I gave him a chance, he wasn't that great, I
tried to help him."
Although he hasn't realised what duffers his family are yet.

Perhaps they have photographs and receipts which would be damaging.

--
Sam Plusnet

Joe Kerr

2020-06-26 20:22:36 UTC

Post by BrritSki
The worrying thing about the Apple/Android app is that it apparently
can't tell the difference between a phone at 3m held in the hand and one
at 1m in a pocket...

Which is partly what wakes me wonder whether it will count as a match if
my neighbour (who I have never knowingly met) and I both leave our
phones on the windowsill or bedside table overnight. And how will her
husband react if he finds I spent the night in close proximity to his wife?

--
Ric

Mike

2020-06-27 16:08:09 UTC

Post by BrritSki
The worrying thing about the Apple/Android app is that it apparently
can't tell the difference between a phone at 3m held in the hand and one
at 1m in a pocket...

Just heard mention on Radio 4, 5pm. News that the Covid testing figures
include test kits sent out; might I assume that though not mentioned, the
figures also include the number of tests that have been carried out on kits
returned? Call me a cynic, but that sounds like double counting to me.

--
Toodle Pip

carolet

2020-06-28 00:19:52 UTC

Post by Mike

Post by BrritSki
The worrying thing about the Apple/Android app is that it apparently
can't tell the difference between a phone at 3m held in the hand and one
at 1m in a pocket...

More or Less have been telling us this for some time. (They told us that
that's how they managed to get over the magic 100,000 tests on the day
that it was promised.) MoL have been assured that these sent-out-tests
are not counted again when they are returned, but nobody is saying how
many of the sent-out-tests are actually returned. It is thought likely
that many are not carried out or returned, so counting all of the tests
sent out may still exagerate the number of these tests that produce results.

In addition, MoL are not satisfied with the way that the tests carried
out directly are counted. It has said that spoiled tests are counted,
and in some circumstances multiple swabs are used during a single visit
to the testing station (one in the mouth & one up the nose?) That sounds
rather like double counting to me.

--
CaroleT

Mike

2020-06-28 08:06:48 UTC

Post by BrritSki
The worrying thing about the Apple/Android app is that it apparently
can't tell the difference between a phone at 3m held in the hand and one
at 1m in a pocket...

More or Less have been telling us this for some time. (They told us that
that's how they managed to get over the magic 100,000 tests on the day
that it was promised.) MoL have been assured that these sent-out-tests
are not counted again when they are returned, but nobody is saying how
many of the sent-out-tests are actually returned. It is thought likely
that many are not carried out or returned, so counting all of the tests
sent out may still exagerate the number of these tests that produce results.
In addition, MoL are not satisfied with the way that the tests carried
out directly are counted. It has said that spoiled tests are counted,
and in some circumstances multiple swabs are used during a single visit
to the testing station (one in the mouth & one up the nose?) That sounds
rather like double counting to me.

Enough to make you want to err... spit innit?

--
Toodle Pip

DavidK

2020-06-28 10:32:26 UTC

It has said that spoiled tests are counted, and in some circumstances
multiple swabs are used during a single visit to the testing station
(one in the mouth & one up the nose?) That sounds rather like double
counting to me.

I don't remember that bit, I might be an issue behind because of battery
problems, but I do remember that MoL said that these are tests being
counted, not people being tested, so one can't divide the number of
positive results ($people) by the number of tests ($tests) to get the
prevalence.

More or Less is an excellent programme and I have the full set on an
sd-card in my headphones. I'm on the second lap.

Sam Plusnet

2020-06-28 18:42:29 UTC

Post by carolet
More or Less have been telling us this for some time. (They told us that
that's how they managed to get over the magic 100,000 tests on the day
that it was promised.) MoL have been assured that these sent-out-tests
are not counted again when they are returned, but nobody is saying how
many of the sent-out-tests are actually returned.

Since the counting of kits sent out is clear evidence of gross
dishonesty, I'm not sure MoL should accept any assurance from the same
source.

--
Sam Plusnet

Penny

2020-06-27 16:24:16 UTC

Does this mean soon no one will know where anyone is or has been in the UK?
<https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/26/satellite-experts-oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit>

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Jim Easterbrook

2020-06-27 16:33:57 UTC

Post by Penny
Does this mean soon no one will know where anyone is or has been in the UK?
<https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/26/satellite-experts-

oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit>

No, because we'll all carry on using GPS like we did before, and like we
would have continued to do even if the UK had its own system. The only
thing lost is £500,000,000 that might have been spent on something more
useful.

I suppose the UK armed forces might be worried about the USA turning off
their access to the high precision mode of GPS, but it's not the only kit
they use that relies on remaining friends with the USA.

--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0

Mike

2020-06-27 16:56:35 UTC

Post by Penny
Does this mean soon no one will know where anyone is or has been in the UK?
<https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/26/satellite-experts-

oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit>
No, because we'll all carry on using GPS like we did before, and like we
would have continued to do even if the UK had its own system. The only
thing lost is £500,000,000 that might have been spent on something more
useful.
I suppose the UK armed forces might be worried about the USA turning off
their access to the high precision mode of GPS, but it's not the only kit
they use that relies on remaining friends with the USA.

So unless we lay all our kinds down on the US table, they will Trump it?

--
Toodle Pip

Mike

2020-06-27 16:57:46 UTC

Post by Mike

Post by Penny
Does this mean soon no one will know where anyone is or has been in the UK?
<https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/26/satellite-experts-

oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit>
No, because we'll all carry on using GPS like we did before, and like we
would have continued to do even if the UK had its own system. The only
thing lost is £500,000,000 that might have been spent on something more
useful.
I suppose the UK armed forces might be worried about the USA turning off
their access to the high precision mode of GPS, but it's not the only kit
they use that relies on remaining friends with the USA.

So unless we lay all our kinds down on the US table, they will Trump it?

That should read ‘cards’ (bl##dy keyboard).

--
Toodle Pip

Kate B

2020-06-27 21:09:55 UTC

Post by Penny
Does this mean soon no one will know where anyone is or has been in the UK?
<https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/26/satellite-experts-

oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit>
No, because we'll all carry on using GPS like we did before, and like we
would have continued to do even if the UK had its own system. The only
thing lost is £500,000,000 that might have been spent on something more
useful.
I suppose the UK armed forces might be worried about the USA turning off
their access to the high precision mode of GPS, but it's not the only kit
they use that relies on remaining friends with the USA.

I thought the initial purpose of these satellites was to provide
broadband to those places which can't be fibre'd? Which would have been
at least sensible if expensive. Then someone with a handy fag-packet
thought, ooh, satellites, GPS innit? I bet their initials were DC.

--
Kate B
London

Mike

2020-06-28 08:04:24 UTC

Post by Penny
Does this mean soon no one will know where anyone is or has been in the UK?
<https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/26/satellite-experts-

oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit>
No, because we'll all carry on using GPS like we did before, and like we
would have continued to do even if the UK had its own system. The only
thing lost is £500,000,000 that might have been spent on something more
useful.
I suppose the UK armed forces might be worried about the USA turning off
their access to the high precision mode of GPS, but it's not the only kit
they use that relies on remaining friends with the USA.

One good idea and... your home could be your castle.

--
Toodle Pip

BrritSki

2020-06-28 14:08:32 UTC

Post by Penny
Does this mean soon no one will know where anyone is or has been in the UK?
<https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/26/satellite-experts-

oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit>
No, because we'll all carry on using GPS like we did before, and like we
would have continued to do even if the UK had its own system. The only
thing lost is £500,000,000 that might have been spent on something more
useful.
I suppose the UK armed forces might be worried about the USA turning off
their access to the high precision mode of GPS, but it's not the only kit
they use that relies on remaining friends with the USA.

There has been lots of discussion and research into using LEO satellites
like the one we are (possibly) bailing out and Musk's similar effort for
GPS although as you say the primary purpose is for brodaband.

I have no idea how realistic that idea is (or whether investing in this
company is a good idea), but if it does work out, it will save billion$.

Kate B

2020-06-28 14:49:24 UTC

Post by Penny
Does this mean soon no one will know where anyone is or has been in the UK?
<https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/26/satellite-experts-

oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit>
No, because we'll all carry on using GPS like we did before, and like we
would have continued to do even if the UK had its own system. The only
thing lost is £500,000,000 that might have been spent on something more
useful.
I suppose the UK armed forces might be worried about the USA turning off
their access to the high precision mode of GPS, but it's not the only kit
they use that relies on remaining friends with the USA.

I thought the initial purpose of these satellites was to provide
broadband to those places which can't be fibre'd? Which would have
been at least sensible if expensive. Then someone with a handy
fag-packet thought, ooh, satellites, GPS innit? I bet their initials
were DC.

There has been lots of discussion and research into using LEO satellites
like the one we are (possibly) bailing out and Musk's similar effort for
GPS although as you say the primary purpose is for brodaband.
I have no idea how realistic that idea is (or whether investing in this
company is a good idea), but if it does work out, it will save billion$.

Filling the sky with small shiny objects may save someone some money
somewhere, but it doesn't half ruin things for astronomers. Or anyone
else who needs dark skies for rest or work, such as birds, bees, moths,
most wildlife in fact.

--
Kate B
London

BrritSki

2020-06-28 16:31:21 UTC

Post by Penny
Does this mean soon no one will know where anyone is or has been in
the
UK?
<https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/26/satellite-experts-

oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit>
No, because we'll all carry on using GPS like we did before, and like we
would have continued to do even if the UK had its own system. The only
thing lost is £500,000,000 that might have been spent on something more
useful.
I suppose the UK armed forces might be worried about the USA turning off
their access to the high precision mode of GPS, but it's not the only kit
they use that relies on remaining friends with the USA.

I thought the initial purpose of these satellites was to provide
broadband to those places which can't be fibre'd? Which would have
been at least sensible if expensive. Then someone with a handy
fag-packet thought, ooh, satellites, GPS innit? I bet their initials
were DC.

There has been lots of discussion and research into using LEO
satellites like the one we are (possibly) bailing out and Musk's
similar effort for GPS although as you say the primary purpose is for
brodaband.
I have no idea how realistic that idea is (or whether investing in
this company is a good idea), but if it does work out, it will save
billion$.

That's a whole other argument, and I understand that Musk has altered
his satellites to fold their panels so they never reflect sunlight back
at Earth.

Mike

2020-06-28 16:37:53 UTC

Post by Penny
Does this mean soon no one will know where anyone is or has been in
the
UK?
<https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/26/satellite-experts-

oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit>
No, because we'll all carry on using GPS like we did before, and like we
would have continued to do even if the UK had its own system. The only
thing lost is £500,000,000 that might have been spent on something more
useful.
I suppose the UK armed forces might be worried about the USA turning off
their access to the high precision mode of GPS, but it's not the only kit
they use that relies on remaining friends with the USA.

I thought the initial purpose of these satellites was to provide
broadband to those places which can't be fibre'd? Which would have
been at least sensible if expensive. Then someone with a handy
fag-packet thought, ooh, satellites, GPS innit? I bet their initials
were DC.

There has been lots of discussion and research into using LEO
satellites like the one we are (possibly) bailing out and Musk's
similar effort for GPS although as you say the primary purpose is for
brodaband.
I have no idea how realistic that idea is (or whether investing in
this company is a good idea), but if it does work out, it will save
billion$.

That's a whole other argument, and I understand that Musk has altered
his satellites to fold their panels so they never reflect sunlight back
at Earth.

Upon reflection, that sounds like a good idea!

--
Toodle Pip

BrritSki

2020-06-29 12:09:23 UTC

Post by Kate B
Filling the sky with small shiny objects may save someone some money
somewhere, but it doesn't half ruin things for astronomers. Or anyone
else who needs dark skies for rest or work, such as birds, bees,
moths, most wildlife in fact.

That's a whole other argument, and I understand that Musk has altered
his satellites to fold their panels so they never reflect sunlight back
at Earth.

It seems what I referred to above only applied in the short period while
the satellite is getting its orbit straight [1] but there are other
measures planned to make it less reflective of light:

I am happy to correct myself [2]

[1] see what I did there ?

<https://astronomynow.com/2020/05/05/spacex-to-debut-satellite-dimming-sunshade-on-next-starlink-launch/>

[2] and there. F'r'Us.

Jim Easterbrook

2020-06-29 13:01:22 UTC

Post by BrritSki
I have no idea how realistic that idea is (or whether investing in this
company is a good idea), but if it does work out, it will save billion$.

Staying in the Galileo consortium would save even more though. And be
less risky.

--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0

BrritSki

2020-06-29 13:27:03 UTC

Post by BrritSki
I have no idea how realistic that idea is (or whether investing in this
company is a good idea), but if it does work out, it will save billion$.

Staying in the Galileo consortium would save even more though. And be
less risky.

I thought we were not allowed to ? Or at least, the EU wanted the same
contribution, but would not allow us to access the military precision bit...

Jim Easterbrook

2020-06-29 17:31:07 UTC

Post by BrritSki
I have no idea how realistic that idea is (or whether investing in
this company is a good idea), but if it does work out, it will save
billion$.

Staying in the Galileo consortium would save even more though. And be
less risky.

I thought we were not allowed to ? Or at least, the EU wanted the same
contribution, but would not allow us to access the military precision bit...

Well, Norway and Switzerland are members, but I realise they have a
closer relationship with the EU than is acceptable to some.

I'd misunderstood the military precision stuff. Unlike GPS, the full
precision ("High Accuracy Service") is available to all users. The
encrypted bit we'd lose access to is the "Public Regulated Service" that
is more robust and resistant to jamming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)

I expect the UK military will just carry on using GPS anyway. As long as
the UK and the USA are both members of NATO (and I realise that's no
longer a given) there shouldn't be a problem.

--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0

Sam Plusnet

2020-06-29 19:56:26 UTC

Post by BrritSki
I have no idea how realistic that idea is (or whether investing in this
company is a good idea), but if it does work out, it will save billion$.

Given the record to date on high-cost government schemes, we need have
no fears on that score.

--
Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet

2020-06-27 20:29:30 UTC

Post by BrritSki
The worrying thing about the Apple/Android app is that it apparently
can't tell the difference between a phone at 3m held in the hand and
one at 1m in a pocket...

Found me'sen humming:

"Does your mobile lose its wifi on the bedside overnight."

(Where are you Lonnie?)

--
Sam Plusnet

Mike

2020-06-28 08:02:49 UTC

Post by BrritSki
The worrying thing about the Apple/Android app is that it apparently
can't tell the difference between a phone at 3m held in the hand and
one at 1m in a pocket...

"Does your mobile lose its wifi on the bedside overnight."
(Where are you Lonnie?)

Donnie’s gone....

--
Toodle Pip

Chris McMillan

2020-06-28 18:12:52 UTC

Post by BrritSki
The worrying thing about the Apple/Android app is that it apparently
can't tell the difference between a phone at 3m held in the hand and
one at 1m in a pocket...

"Does your mobile lose its wifi on the bedside overnight."
(Where are you Lonnie?)

Not answering your bell.

Sincerely Chris

Sid Nuncius

2020-06-28 18:54:02 UTC

Post by Joe Kerr
Which is partly what wakes me wonder whether it will count as a match
if my neighbour (who I have never knowingly met) and I both leave our
phones on the windowsill or bedside table overnight. And how will her
husband react if he finds I spent the night in close proximity to his wife?

"Does your mobile lose its wifi on the bedside overnight."

:o)

Post by Sam Plusnet
(Where are you Lonnie?)

He got his last ticket at the station for the Rock Island Line in 2002.
(And he was right, not wrong - I do miss him now he's gone.)

--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)

Penny

2020-06-28 22:08:14 UTC

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 19:54:02 +0100, Sid Nuncius

Post by Sam Plusnet
"Does your mobile lose its wifi on the bedside overnight."

:o)

Post by Sam Plusnet
(Where are you Lonnie?)

He got his last ticket at the station for the Rock Island Line in 2002.
(And he was right, not wrong - I do miss him now he's gone.)

Gosh, was it really that long ago?
I saw him at Guilfest in 2001.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

krw

2020-06-22 21:19:34 UTC

I won't mention the source in case it triggers more "bile" :/
" [1]
The health minister in the Lords, Lord Bethell, has revealed the failed
NHSX COVID-tracing app has cost the taxpayer £11.8 million. Millions
that could have been saved had anyone in government – especially the CEO
of NHSX Matthew Gould – listened to all the experts saying the app was
never going to work…
UPDATE: Assuming a £100 per hour rate for developers that equates to
118,000 man hours. Which seems impossible. Even if we double the rate to
£200 per hour that suggests 59,000 man hours. How many people were
working on the project for 3 months? This needs auditing…
"
Indeed.
[1] Dumb double quotes...

I gather they were Swiss based so perhaps earning far more than that?

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

krw

2020-06-22 21:12:16 UTC

it was the abandonment of the rest to a (perceived) inferior
education with little room for later adjustment.

A properly streamed and taught groupings could achieve excellent
results alongside gs, which was what the good sm did.

And that was what the comprehensives were supposed to do too. But like
the old secondary moderns and like many academies today, it depended and
depends entirely on a variety of variables such as catchment area
(single-occupation houses with books in every room? or difficult estates
with nowhere to do your homework in peace and the local library closed?)
and teaching staff (lazy sods who follow the same lesson programmes
they've been teaching for years? or imaginative and engaged teachers who
tailor everything to the needs of the class?) and general funding
(well-endowed establishment with spare space for playing fields and new
libraries? Cramped sixties school falling to bits and nowhere to exapnd
to except over the playground?)
There is simply no legislation or system that will replace the good
teacher or the well-supported school. Since these tend to be in
better-off areas, the poor - however bright - tend to miss out.

The problem being for most comprehensives is that the same cohort went
from junior to secondary education and the peer links are not disrupted.
Which I see as a drawback.

It can happen - there are apparently some excellent schools achieving
good results in poor parts of London but it is harder to maintain.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

Tony Bryer

2020-06-24 07:01:23 UTC

Post by krw
3. The absence of any competent scientist or individual in the Covid
Cabinet with that type of training able to question or understand the
science is a deep concern - the individuals are drawn from too small a pool.

"Do you know any science, Humphrey?"

"Certainly not, minister; I was one of the bright boys"

--
Tony B, OzRat, Melbourne

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-06-19 21:13:32 UTC

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 16:21:40, Nick Odell
<***@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
[]

Post by Nick Odell
Just to establish where I am coming from with this soon-to-be-written
little rantette, I lean to the left (or so my tailor tells me) but
given the opportunity to form my personal fantasy government I would
pick good people from all over the political spectrum because it is my

("Government of national unity", I think some were calling for a few
months ago.)

Post by Nick Odell
opinion that the vast majority of people of any persuasion who go into
politics do so to try and make their town/county/country/world a bit
better but the few who are in it for themselves get noticed for being
in it for themselves. So if we may we presume, for the sake of
argument, most people in politics want to get our country through this
current mess with compassion and care for each other and as little
personal and economic damage as possible, why are we getting it all so
horribly wrong?

It has been my view for some time - certainly from before COVID - that
the entire political party system is well past its sell-by date. (I'm
not sure it _ever_ had a [good] purpose, but it might have.) IMO, all
MPs should be independent. Not to say there shouldn't be the possibility
for them to _align_ themselves with various
companies/unions/pressuregroups, even to the extent of such funding
their campaigns: that would happen anyway, so it might as well be open.
But parties - especially whipping, and ejecting people - seem to me to
do a lot more harm than good.

However, you'd also have to change how aspects of the system work, with
various things with various names - parliament, "the government", and
"the executive", to name just three. 2019 proved that _as it stands_, no
overall majority causes stalemate with little being done, and us
becoming a laughing stock. But countries _can_ survive - and thrive! -
with no majority: Germany in the 1970s seemed to do very well. I don't
know enough about politics/government/whatever to know what the
differences were/are.

Post by Nick Odell
Let us look over the pond. In my opinion, the Republican Party is not
made up entirely of racists and bigots: there are some damn fine
Republican people there who care about their neighbours and their
country in a Republican way. But because the Republican Party was
failing to win majorities in the country, they collectively took the
decision to front the party with someone who was not a real Republican
but who could win back power. And what they got was someone who won
power for themselves in the name of the Republican Party and governs
by effectively sidelining the Republican rump - who are too frightened
to fight back for losing what remnants of power the rump still
retains.

I think you've about summed it up there.

Post by Nick Odell
Does that sound familiar? I think that is what the ailing Labour Party
did when they brought in Tony Blair - who was not "real" Labour and
who consigned old Labour values to the sidelines - and what the

I never liked TB: I was never sure where he was _going_. I've never been
a Labour supporter, but strongly _respect_ many Labour personalities,
either because I _understood_ where they were coming from, or I thought
they were very intelligent. (Or occasionally both.)

Post by Nick Odell
flailing Conservative Party did when they elected Boris Johnson as
Prime Minister.

I used to like Boris, and still can't bring myself to actually hate him:
I don't think he's competent to be PM, though.

Post by Nick Odell
In short, we no more have a Conservative government of the UK than the
US has one of Republicans.

The US barely has a government at all, it sometimes seems to me. (Though
I am - slightly - reassured by some recent Supreme Court decision, even
after it was stuffed very unevenly by a Trump appointment. I just hope
that wasn't a flash in the pan.)

Post by Nick Odell
Until Parliament gets itself a backbone and
demands better, I think we are stuck with government by a
non-representative putsch and the chaos that imbues therein.

Trouble is, our system needs reform (e. g. the voting system), but the
only way to get things done fast is a reasonable majority, who then have
no _reason_ to change anything as it's what got them where they are.
(And a populace who don't _understand_ anything other than the current
voting system - though the referendum on that was IMO bodged.)

Post by Nick Odell
Ahhhh. I feel better now.

I can tell (-:. I do too, a little. [Can't see things changing much
though. )-:]

Post by Nick Odell
Nick

John

Chris J Dixon

2020-06-20 08:35:13 UTC

Labour seems for some time to have had the problem that the aims
and objectives of party members, which may not align with the
Parliamentary Labour Party, do not have enough support from
non-members at election time.

You could argue that party members are voting for their own
demise.

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

Peter

2020-06-23 16:02:53 UTC