Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by anonPost by StraydogCaptive labor means physically incarcerated.
Physical incarceration is a means that was employed to create captive
labour. Depending on times and circumstances, it might be possible to
create captive labour without physical incarceration. The motive is to
create captive labour and the modus operandi used can change with
circumstances and isn't limited to physical incarceration.
One can
Post by Kamal R. Prasadcreate H1B legislation that makes one captive -without using whips or
without categorizing their status as illegal.
Wrong. The H1B holder can find a different employer and at the minimum go
into "pending" status which is not illegal and if "approved" (which just
takes time) becomes legal. I have seen many job announcements now which
REQUIRE that the applicant already be H1B.
On paper, they can transfer their visa to another employer. In
practice, one has to leave on good terms for the employer not to raise
a red flag.
Untrue. Former employer cannot block a transfer, but a new company will
interview H1B holders!!!
they can cancel the visa and get the INS to deport the H1B. Its the law
stupid.
Post by StraydogThe employer has full rights to cancel the visa, order the
Post by Kamal R. PrasadINS to deport the H1B on 24 hours notice.
Then tell me why there are so many advertisements looking for people who
have H1B visas? The new employer can sponsor. The old employer can't
block.
No -employers ask for H1Bs because they are cheaper to hire. It doesn't
mean employers want them to be free and be paid heavily. To the
contrary, it means they like them because of the restricted rights
under which they work.
Post by StraydogAll rights for the H1B's stay
Post by Kamal R. Prasadin the country are wholly and solely with the employer.
And, the employer can be anyone who wants to employ that H1B.
H1B sponsor can only be a green card holder or US citizen. I know of
some H1B colleagues of mine who wanted to do unto others, what others
did to them i.e. open a bodyshop and cater to american companies.
Post by StraydogThat is what
Post by Kamal R. Prasadmakes for a captive labour force.
Untrue.
If labour is not 100% free -then by definition, it is captive. How can
it be untrue?
Post by StraydogIn order to break free from this, one
Post by Kamal R. Prasadhas to go in for a green card
I can tell you for a fact that I had a Chinese woman on a student visa who
ended up working for an employer in the capacity of a CS/IT employee. They
don't have to go for a green card. She even told me this in followup
correspondence after she was on her new job.
yeah -student visa holders have something like 1 yr after completing
their graduation to work in the US as apprentice or something like
that.
Post by Straydog-which requires employer to certify that
Post by Kamal R. Prasadbeneficiary of the green card application has contributed to his
business satisfactorily and hence is deserving of a green card.
Irrelevant.
If
Post by Kamal R. Prasadsomeone waits for 5 yrs to earn his liberation -he will be off the hook
else will remain captive.
Go talk to your lawyer. They can do anything. It just takes time.
they can't. Your politicians can do anything one likes -but it costs
money to get them to do something.
Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadFor hispanics, one can
Post by Kamal R. Prasaddump goods and destroy self-sustained communities in rural mexico
forcing them to give up their civic rights [as enjoyed in their own
country] and become illegals in the USA -wherein their presence is
illegal, but the services they provide are legal and benefit society
and businesses alike.
Wrong. It is illegal to hire but enforcement is weak. Employers are
breaking the law to hire people who do not have a legal right to work in
the USA, AND are here illegally. Yet it happens.
No -the enforcement is weak on purpose and all loopholes in law are
intentional and not accidental.
All the law provides is mental _pressure_. It is just common for
foreigners to come in legally, and then stay illegally. So, they take
their chances to get caught, which is very rare. Our population of
foreigners is growing some 1-2 million per year. Of course more come in
than get deported.
as long as the jobs are there -they will keep streaming in.
Post by StraydogIt takes 1 hr for the INS to round up
Post by Kamal R. Prasadworkers at any major employer of hispanics.
Its very rare. A manager at the local chicken plant told me that 90% of
their workers are illegal. They dont' get deported. But the employer pays
a fine.
why don't they just stop employing illegals or why doesn't the govt
force employers to stop employing illegals? Its really simple for law
enforcement to act on large companies. The only reason I can think of
is that both employers and their customers do want the benefits of
cheaper services that these illegals provide.
Post by StraydogYour own statements
Post by Kamal R. Prasadindicate that the entire food processing industry employs illegals.
Yeah, so what?
so -it is not difficult to enforce the law, if they really want to do
that.
Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadWhat exactly is difficult about going to a food processing factory and
lining up all workers at 10 am and checking who is or is not legal?
See above.
The
Post by Kamal R. Prasadonly difficulty I see is the loss of slave labour to the employers and
their customers.
It has not happened.
- because you are unwilling to disown the benefits of slavery.
Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadFor students, one can create visas which make it illegal to work off
campus and so they are forced to accept campus jobs which pay less than
min wage.
The students can avail themselves of lawyers to get on the green card
path. And, you lie again about "forced to accept ...jobs that pay less"
They cannot file for green cards while on student visas.
Who needs a green card to work here?
you said she applied for a green card or that one can file for a green
card directly.
Post by StraydogThey need to
Post by Kamal R. Prasadbe employed to file for a green card and it can only be done by the
employer -not by the employee.
No, I have been asked, and in some cases, actually helped by writing
letters for people who are NOT working for me, to get a green card. You
are misinformed.
you cannot sponsor any individual other than those working for you -for
a green catd.. Exceptions would be relatives, spouses, parents etc. I
am quoting your own country's law here -not twisting anything.
Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. Prasadbecause the laws are written in a way that some jobs will always pay less
than min wage no matter who you are.
The jobs will always pay less -but the students on a visa rather than
free labour will accept the jobs because the law constrains them to do
so.
There are tons of jobs here that pay less than min wage because these jobs
fall below the thresholds. Doesn't matter who takes the jobs. I myself
have hired people born in the US on jobs that paid less than min wage.
Part time jobs almost always are missed by the min wage laws. Even Walmart
likes to hire more people at part time than fewer at full time because
then they don't have to pay benefits, SS, insurance, pension, taxes, and
makes labor cheaper. Its all about how big US corporations can cheat
employees born in the USA (in addition to foreigners).
there are certainly native individuals in the food chain so low down,
that even enslaved labour has a better economic status than natives. It
doesn't mean they aren't enslaved -just that slavery can happen at
various pts in the food chain, many a times involving educated people.
Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadSo, you have your continuous story of twisting facts around to fit your
prejudice.
I have pointed to facts
A lot of them are wrong and misinformed.
and what would that be?
Post by Straydogand to portions of legislation enacted by the
You don't know the details and you don't know the cheats.
text of legislation is text. Either I have not quoted properly or have
quoted properly. There can't be something in between. The statements
about:-
-employer can cancel visa and ask INS to deport H1B visa holder
-employer needs to certify that beneficiary of green card application
has satisfactorily contributed to the business and consequently to
national interest
is very much straight out of the legislation enacted by the US govt.
Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by anonthe USA has a history of indentured labour.
Yeah -slavery is a pillar of the american economy.
Yeah, India is where you should really be looking; child slave labor in
the rug factories exists today and anyone can prove it with a search
engine. However, despite me telling you and anyone else who is reading
this, you still prefer to lie.
Im telling you the truth. There are lots of bad things happening in
India, not limited to child labour. We are a country where blood flows
cheap, and the right to remain silent (5th amenndment) when in police
custody does not apply.
Fine, we have a lot of bad things in the USA, too.
That doesn't mean there is no slavery in the US
Post by Kamal R. Prasador that slavery isn't a msinstay of the US economy.
If you want to call it exploitation, then I will agree with you. But its
not slavery and its not the mainstay of the US economy. 99.999999% of the
population does not have chains around its arms and legs. The others are
smuggled in and they have to be hidden. The 4 percent or so that are here
illegally and are ignorant and can't speak or understand english are good
targets for exploitation and unscrupulous employers will exploit them.
Their civic rights are curtailed as it happens for any other slaves.
All of those 12 million hispanics live under the threat of the gun i.e
of law enforcement, just as slave labour in plantations used to. On
paper, they aren't supposed to be working in the US -but in reality
they will not be deported or more importantly prevented from working,
unless they aren't doing a good job and the business owner asks law
enforcement aka the govt for help. Every visa type issued by the US
govt comes with constraints aka restricted rights -to the extent the
situation permits, in order to create captive labour.
Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadWithout it,
Post by Kamal R. Prasadamericans won't be able to live the kind of lifestyle they currently
do.
With 88% of the people in the USA as people who were born and raised here,
and a workforce of about 140 miillion, it is a fact that WE really do work
to support ourselves and the non-US born people come here to get a better
No -you have others to support your lifestyle, and that others happens
to be 12% of your population (your own words above) which is HUGE.
60% of that 12% is illegal and here of their own free will. The other 40%
of that 12% is here legally and of their own free will. They only support
free will is not entirely free. There are many constraints which the US
govt exploits to land them in their situation. Think of your govt as a
profit making corporation that provides services to businesses. One
such service is creation of a captive labour pool, some others would be
invading oil rich countries.
Post by Straydogpart of "our" lifestyle, and all of their own. I never heard of any
significant number even trying to leave.
if they can leave -then the procedure for creating captive labour has
gone dysfunctional and the purpose for which businesses pay your govt
money would be lost.
Post by StraydogIt
Post by Kamal R. Prasadcould mean illegals, or educated work permit holders or top notch
technocrats hired with lucrative prospects -but without an influx of
alien manpower, you just don't stand a chance at sustaining your living
std/purchasing power.
I'm sorry, I don't agree. They can all go anytime they want as far as I'm
concerned. If they don't like it here, they can go back to where they came
from. I see they all want to stay. I don't see chains around their legs or
arms. I see them all sitting out on their front porches, happily talking
on free minutes to their relatives in Mexico on cell phones, and even the
newspapers tell about them sending $20 billion back to their families
where they came from.
yeah -inflated currency is one of the means of retaining slave labour.
The other would be to destroy self-sustained rural communities in their
home country, or assasinating popular politicians there so that they
can all gatecrash into the US for livelihood.
Post by StraydogYou make up a big fantasy fairy tale of falsehood based on nothing but an
anti-US atitude.
well -you can look at facts mentioned by me and decide for yourself. If
you say you like slavery and want it to continue for another 300 yrs
-there is nothing I can do about it. Im just trying to create awareness
amongst people who don't want such a thing to continue.
Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. Prasadlife than where they came from. And, I'm waiting for any real search
engine results that show there is any slavery in the USA like the child
slave labor that really does exist in India.
Its done by sleight of hand -and the reason why Im talking about it is
coz if I don't, lots of prospective H1Bs/F1s etc will fall into the
trap.
Sorry, but the employers just love the H1B, and from what I'm reading
yeah -they do love captive labour, which is why they pay politicians
money to bring in more captive labour and keep it captive.
Post by Straydogthere are people all over the world who love to come here on H1Bs and see
depends on the options on hand. A war-torn country doesn't provide any
options. A country with politicial stability, and reasonable amt of
domestic industry does provide some options. I have an option to find
employment that isn't as good as the ones in the US -but good enough to
meet my economic requirements. And so, I have opted out of H1B and
really don't want to be in the US.
Post by Straydogwhat life here is like and decide whether to stay or go back. I see mostly
Russians here in restaurants, cash registers in lots of stores now, and I
talk to almost all of them. Some want to stay, others want to go back. Its
their choice. No slavery. They freely talk with me.
Slavery is practised by the employer, not by the customer. At one pt,
the US had lots of irish immigrants who were disliked by the citizenry.
Then, Bill Clinton brokered peace in N Ireland and domestic
oppurtunities increased, which gave them an option to go back and lots
of them did go back. So, if there are individuals who are furious about
the influx of foreigners -the best thing to do is to take away their
jobs in the US and stop meddling in their local economies or even
better help them create a better country of their homeland -so that
they won't gatecrash/inconvenience americans.
Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by anonPost by StraydogI think all readers of these posts by Kamal need to understand their
rights and read the "fine print" on their contracts BEFORE they move to
The fine print isn't available for one to read.
You have to learn to dig around for the laws, yourself. You have to ask
questions. You have to learn to expand your mind.
I was referring to others being able to read the fine print.
Same answer.
Post by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadIt can only be gathered
Then you have to ask other people and get the story from those who have
gone before you.
which is what I am (the guy who has gone and come back before some
H1B/F1 applicants). Im telling them their experience -hope they read
this -before they land in the US. Once they land and buy immovable
property, their fate is sealed.
Fine, go tell them. I read on a.c.c all the time. Where are you telling
them what to do? Go on the immigration newsgroups and tell them anything
you want, I don't care. Just don't lie about facts.
Post by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadShow me where the fine print states that the US govt
Post by Kamal R. Prasadaccepts money to perpetuate slavery,
I can take you to almost any community public library in the USA and
within minutes show you sections where there are shelves that explain this.
There are also newspapers which often explain these things. And, lastly,
there are a lot of people in the USA who don't bother, because they are
either stupid or ignorant about the laws and the practices.
so you accept that the US govt accepts money to perpetuate slavery?
That is not what I said. You call it slavery, it is not. But the fine
print is out there and the exploiter does not have to tell you about it.
That is why it is called fine print. Anyone in the USA who has heard about
this, knows what it is about. The fine print is always a trap. But, it is
not slavery. YOu have to read the fine print before you sign your name.
I
Post by Kamal R. Prasadthought you are denying its very existence in the USA.
I am. You take something I say and make it into whatever you want. Its
your big defect.
Post by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. Prasadthat all rules and the law
Post by Kamal R. Prasadenforcement mechanism are there to remind slaves of their status and to
ensure they do a good job on the work front?
See above.
Or show me where the fine
Post by Kamal R. Prasadprint says that one should contribute to the profits of american
businesses
A large fraction of the people already knwo they have no power over how
they are hired, what they are paid, or what they are offered.
they have no power over the demand/supply curve -yes. But many have the
power to look for better oppurtunities or not put up with harassment
-and those on restricted rights don't have those rights.
I'm sorry, I have no sympathy for people who want to just come here and
have everything handed to them on a silver platter for free just like born
citizens who have citizenship as a birthright. You have no claim over
There is no such thing as native or immigrant. All humans were born to
the same set of biological parents 60000 yrs back in africa and moved
out of it. Every country's native population is a result of human
migration and there is no divine decree that gives them rights over the
land on which they settled.
Post by Straydogthat. If you want to get a green card, there are procedures. If you want
to become a citizen, there are procedures, too.
and all those procedures are there to extract something from the
newcomer by denying them their civic rights.
Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. Prasador pay royalty to good-for-nothing citizens to earn freedom.
This is just blatant anti-US namecalling as well as a big lie that you
keep telling everyone when the fact of the matter is that most of the
people here actualy work to support themselves and quite a few foreigners
come here to be the ones who freeload on our govt services and exploit
even their own kind when they import them into their own shops and
businesses. I know many examples.
No -every american who expects businesses to reward them with jobs in
return for hiring foreigners, or who expects a good salary on account
of his citizenship/race is a parasite (good-for-nothing).
The real parasites are the executives who do nothing for their high
salaries, and the real parasites are the foreigners who come here and
expect to get jobs, money, govt services, free hospital treatment all for
just gate crashing.
No -the real parasites are those who want others to work for them,
Employers like foreigners in the US coz they deliver better return on
investment. They hold their nose when hiring many a native coz they
know he wouldn't deliver good returns -but have got to hire some so as
not to create public backlash.
Post by StraydogAnd, besides, a lot of them are theives, too.
are they? how about you categorize them as terrorists too and tell the
way Bill Frist(?) did that we cannot give them citizenship coz they
could be a threat to national security. So, lets ensure they remain on
restricted rights till we feel confident of giving them citizenship.
Come to think of it, how many of those 12 million can afford to be in
the US without income to support their existence?
Post by StraydogYou can find
Post by Kamal R. Prasadlots of posters claiming this right of theirs on usenet. These are
their own words and I do not have to extrapolate on that.
And, you just say that Americans don't have a right to a job and all that
means is that you consider it OK to steal someone else's livlihood. Fine,
The job isn't yours to be stolen. It belongs to the investor who puts
money to create a job. If the job does belong to any american, then by
extension the capital that creates the job is also his -in which case,
he won't be in the working class, but will be in the investor class and
can stop slogging it out for his living.
Post by Straydoglets send the British back into India and run the country and take out of
it whatever they want. Because then you, as Indians born in your own
country, don't own your rights either.
They cannot run the country, coz one needs to stand for election to do
that -and by law foreigners cannot stand for election coz they may be
at odds with national interest. But that doesn't mean they cannot work
in India. Blore [and maybe soon some other export zones] has a hufe
influx of whites who have followed their job to India. They can live as
long as they like, and there is no requirement that employers offer
jobs to natives before they hire any of these newcomers. The govt is
more than glad to collect taxes from such higher income people -and no
matter how poor people are, they do not have anything against these
newcomers. If the govt does want to confer citizenship on them, it will
do so absolutely free of cost -and the question of working for one's
freedom doesn't arise. They have full rights on landing legally - other
than voting rights or the right to hold an Indian passport. For
political refugees, there is a grey area -but we do have lots of them
in our country, mostly those who have nothing to offer in return for
asylum.
Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by Kamal R. PrasadPost by anonunfortunately, the fine print is not available to the employee, unless one
reads the immigration laws. these people are programmers, not lawyers.
The immigration laws provide only some insight as to how bad things can
get. To know how bad they will get, you need to experience it first
hand and pass on the info to others.
Since the H1B is NOT a slave, the H1B can quit anytime and go back where
he came from. Real slaves have chains around their wrists and legs and
can't quit and can't go back to where they came from.
In theory -they can quit and go back. In practice, they cannot after
having bought immovable property in the US.
Well, I'm sorry if you don't have enough money to put your immovable
property in storage so you can sell it and get some of your money back. Do
you think this does never happen to US people in the USA? Why should I
have more sympathy for you than for US people here that this happens to?
because natives have freedom and H1Bs don't. They cannot opt out of the
H1B scam after buying immovable property.
Post by StraydogBefore they get to the US
Post by Kamal R. Prasad-they can opt not to enter the US and so cannot be considered enslaved.
That is THEIR problem, not MY problem.
yeah -and to fix their and not your problem, I am stating how things
work in the US.
Post by StraydogPost by Kamal R. PrasadIf americans make it explicit to potential visa holders as to what to
expect, they will create choice and pre-empt slavery.
Sorry, the laws are written and go into books. Everyone has to beware of
the laws. If I go to India, then the moment I get off the plane, the
Indian government does not put into my hands many large boxes of all
Indian laws for me to read about. And, it does not happen to Indians that
get off the plane when it lands in the USA, either. You have to talk to
people and ask questions.
if they keep mum
Post by Kamal R. Prasador encourage them to come to the US, it indicates a desire to profit
from slavery.
Yes.
glad you agree on this.
regards
-kamal