Post by Norman WellsPost by pensive hamsterPost by Norman WellsPost by pensive hamsterPost by Norman WellsPost by pensive hamsterPost by Norman WellsPost by pensive hamsterPost by Norman WellsThe fact is, the EU does *not* have trade agreements in place with very
much of the significant trading world, whichever way you look at it.
Equally, it seems the fact is, the USA does *not* have trade
agreements in place with very much of the significant trading world,
whichever way you look at it.
So quite why you are picking on the EU, I'm unsure.
It's because Mr Clayton was alleging the EU had trade agreements with
most of the countries we trade with worldwide, and invoked Project Fear
to make us think we'd lose all the advantages those agreements bring as
soon as we leave the EU. This would bring depression, recession and
economic ruin, so we shouldn't leave, should we?
I was just pointing out the dishonesty in all that.
What makes you think all that is dishonest (assuming you haven't
exaggerated or misrepresented what Mr Clayton has said)?
You'll have to read the Brexit and Customs Duties thread. It's all in
there.
Is this some kind of hide-and-seek game? I don't really want to
trawl through a 127 post thread in the hope of spotting where
you might have hidden your answer. Why can't you just copy
and paste whatever it is that you want me to read?
And I don't want to reprise all the arguments here that I had there.
Post by pensive hamsterAre you saying we won't lose whatever advantages EU FTAs
bring us as soon as we leave the EU?
Of course we will. The point, though, is that they don't amount to
much, because the EU does not actually have free trade agreements in
place with very much of the signicant trading world.
It doesn't for example, with USA, China, India, Russia, Indonesia,
Nigeria, Brazil ....
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/negotiations-and-agreements/
The EU is not the only major country or trading block that doesn't
have free trade agreements with those countries, the USA for
example, doesn't.
So what?
You earlier wrote: 'The fact is, the EU does *not* have trade
agreements in place with very much of the significant trading world,
whichever way you look at it.'
That statement doesn't have much significance unless you compare
the EU with other countries or trading blocs. As far as I am aware,
no country or trading bloc has free trade agreements in place with
very much of the significant trading world, and I cited the USA as an
example of a country which doesn't.
So your statement would have been more balanced and informative
if you had written: 'The fact is, the EU in common with most/all
other countries or trading blocs, does *not* have trade agreements
in place with very much of the significant trading world, whichever
way you look at it.'
As far as I can make out, the EU seems to have an above average
number of free trade agreements in place or partially applied. I am
not aware of any country or trading bloc which has a greater number
of FTAs.
So I cannot at present see any reason to think the UK could,
post-Brexit, achieve a greater number of FTAs than the EU already
has.
Post by Norman WellsThe question is what we would lose when we leave, and the
answer to that is only the trade agreements the EU has in place.
That is only part of the question. You haven't said what we
would *gain* (in terms of FTAs) when we leave.
Post by Norman WellsIt has nothing to do with any other blocs.
It has everything to do with other blocs, they are the ones we
presumably hope to strike new FTAs with.
Post by Norman WellsPost by pensive hamsterAre you anticipating that The UK will be able to successfully
negotiate FTAs with those countries?
I don't know. At least we will be free to try.
Post by pensive hamsterPost by Norman WellsMoreover, a free trade agreement that suits the EU as a whole, ie some
of the major economies within it, might not be to the UK's advantage.
Your argument seems to boil down to saying that being in the
EU might not be to the UK's advantage. Have you attempted
to evaluate whether it is or not, or is "might not be" just your
version of Project Fear?
I've already evaluated that,
You now seem to be contradicting yourself. I earlier asked
'Are you anticipating that The UK will be able to successfully
negotiate FTAs with those countries?'
and you replied: 'I don't know. At least we will be free to try.'
But now you are saying: 'I've already evaluated that, ...'
????
Post by Norman Wellsand think we should leave. It's no secret.
But a trade agreement that has been negotiated by the EU does not
necessarily or even likely benefit all the countries of the EU equally.
In fact it may actually disadvantage some but has been concluded because
its benefits to the EU as a whole outweigh the disadvantages.
Post by pensive hamsterThe UK is 34th in this list of top exporting countries per capita
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports_per_capita
below such EU members as Netherlands, Belgium, Ireland,
Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Slovenia, Slovakia,
Czech Republic, Finland, Hungary, Estonia, France, and Italy.
That's presumably because it's only counting goods not services, whereas
we are mainly a service-based economy.
Fair point. I assumed the figures would include services, I should
have checked. My apologies.
Post by Norman WellsUnlike some other countries in the EDU, we've gone beyond base
metal-bashing and tomato growing.
Post by pensive hamsterhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports
Why the discrepancy, do you think?
It's obviously because the goods we export are of high value.
Post by pensive hamsterIs EU membership
somehow good for the above mentioned countries' exporting
abilities, but bad for the UK's?
I've no idea.
Post by pensive hamsterDo you think the UK will move up either list after Brexit?
I doubt it because we're not a very significant manufacturing nation.
Post by pensive hamsterPost by Norman WellsFree trade is not always advantageous, as Trump's spat with China shows.
Don't think the USA has a free trade agreement with China.
No, but he obviously thinks that trade has been too free with China, and
that has led to the dumping of Chinese steel, aluminium, textiles and
other goods in the USA to the detriment of US businesses. That's why
he's now imposed substantial import tariffs on such goods.
Free trade, especially with a much larger partner that produces the same
stuff as you do but cheaper, can be harmful. It's not true that it's
always good, and it's not true that what is good for someone else is
also good for you.