Discussion:
Safe to Delete Photos.app?
(too old to reply)
Davoud
2015-10-05 00:40:38 UTC
Permalink
I don't mind having unused software on my HDs, but I mind that my Macs
can't remember what to do when I plug in one of the numerous CF or SD
cards that I use, and that Photos.app usually opens when I put a card
in my reader or connect an iOS device.

For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.

TIA!
--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
nospam
2015-10-05 00:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davoud
I don't mind having unused software on my HDs, but I mind that my Macs
can't remember what to do when I plug in one of the numerous CF or SD
cards that I use, and that Photos.app usually opens when I put a card
in my reader or connect an iOS device.
For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.
it doesn't take up much space and you can't delete it anyway (at least
not without a lot of effort).

to stop auto-launch, all you need to do is launch either photos or
image capture and then disable auto-launch for each camera and card you
have.

you have to do it for each one as they're all seen as unique separate
devices because users might want a different action to occur with an
iphone camera versus an slr.
FPP
2015-10-05 01:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davoud
I don't mind having unused software on my HDs, but I mind that my Macs
can't remember what to do when I plug in one of the numerous CF or SD
cards that I use, and that Photos.app usually opens when I put a card
in my reader or connect an iOS device.
For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.
TIA!
How would you delete it?

Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.

When I drag it to the trash, it gives me an error... doesn't yours do the same?
--
"The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get
worse every time Congress meets." - Will Rogers
nospam
2015-10-05 01:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by FPP
Post by Davoud
I don't mind having unused software on my HDs, but I mind that my Macs
can't remember what to do when I plug in one of the numerous CF or SD
cards that I use, and that Photos.app usually opens when I put a card
in my reader or connect an iOS device.
For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.
TIA!
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
When I drag it to the trash, it gives me an error... doesn't yours do the same?
one way is boot from a different drive and delete it.

it's still a bad idea.
Davoud
2015-10-05 02:10:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by FPP
Post by Davoud
I don't mind having unused software on my HDs, but I mind that my Macs
can't remember what to do when I plug in one of the numerous CF or SD
cards that I use, and that Photos.app usually opens when I put a card
in my reader or connect an iOS device.
For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
When I drag it to the trash, it gives me an error... doesn't yours do the same?
If I knew the answers to your questions I wouldn't have posted my
question.
--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
JF Mezei
2015-10-05 04:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davoud
If I knew the answers to your questions I wouldn't have posted my
question.
I have a preference pane called "Default Apps". It allows you to specify
what is launched based on many things ( Internet apps, Media, apps,
URIs, Extensions, UTIs.)

In "media", I selected "iPhoto" for "Camera" and any camera I insert,
whether iphone(s) or Nikon goes to iPhoto.

Not sure what happens when you insert an SD card as the OS would see
this as a USB drive, not a camera.
Savageduck
2015-10-05 05:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Davoud
If I knew the answers to your questions I wouldn't have posted my
question.
I have a preference pane called "Default Apps". It allows you to specify
what is launched based on many things ( Internet apps, Media, apps,
URIs, Extensions, UTIs.)
In "media", I selected "iPhoto" for "Camera" and any camera I insert,
whether iphone(s) or Nikon goes to iPhoto.
The point of the question is, some of us don't want to use iPhoto or
Photos under any circumstances.
Post by JF Mezei
Not sure what happens when you insert an SD card as the OS would see
this as a USB drive, not a camera.
An SD or CF card formatted in a camera will be recognised as a "device"
by Photos. Import options must be disabled/unchecked at least once.

When using Lightroom, loading an SD, or CF card opens the LR import dialog.
--
Regards,

Savageduck
Huge
2015-10-05 23:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Davoud
If I knew the answers to your questions I wouldn't have posted my
question.
I have a preference pane called "Default Apps". It allows you to specify
what is launched based on many things ( Internet apps, Media, apps,
URIs, Extensions, UTIs.)
In "media", I selected "iPhoto" for "Camera" and any camera I insert,
whether iphone(s) or Nikon goes to iPhoto.
Not sure what happens when you insert an SD card as the OS would see
this as a USB drive, not a camera.
Finder mounts it as a drive.
--
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my
attitude, that's your problem.
FPP
2015-10-05 06:47:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davoud
Post by FPP
Post by Davoud
I don't mind having unused software on my HDs, but I mind that my Macs
can't remember what to do when I plug in one of the numerous CF or SD
cards that I use, and that Photos.app usually opens when I put a card
in my reader or connect an iOS device.
For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
When I drag it to the trash, it gives me an error... doesn't yours do the same?
If I knew the answers to your questions I wouldn't have posted my
question.
Ah... I thought it odd, since you're not going to be able to delete it
without resorting to extraordinary measures.

I'm not even sure if you CAN do it, even if you WERE to resort to
extraordinary measures.
--
"Politicians: Pinocchios with nose jobs." -Bauvard
Huge
2015-10-05 23:14:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by FPP
Post by Davoud
I don't mind having unused software on my HDs, but I mind that my Macs
can't remember what to do when I plug in one of the numerous CF or SD
cards that I use, and that Photos.app usually opens when I put a card
in my reader or connect an iOS device.
For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.
TIA!
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
sudo rm -rf /Applications/Photos.app
--
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my
attitude, that's your problem.
nospam
2015-10-05 23:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huge
Post by FPP
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
sudo rm -rf /Applications/Photos.app
dumb idea. very dumb.
Alan Browne
2015-10-06 17:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Huge
Post by FPP
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
sudo rm -rf /Applications/Photos.app
dumb idea. very dumb.
Computer owner decides. It certainly isn't dumb. No GP computer should
be configured so that GP apps can cause a failure if they are removed.
Photos is not part of the OS.
David Empson
2015-10-06 23:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by nospam
Post by Huge
Post by FPP
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
sudo rm -rf /Applications/Photos.app
dumb idea. very dumb.
Computer owner decides. It certainly isn't dumb. No GP computer should
be configured so that GP apps can cause a failure if they are removed.
Photos is not part of the OS.
Yes it is, according to Apple. You cannot delete or modify Photos.app in
El Capitan without disabling or bypassing SIP.
--
David Empson
***@actrix.gen.nz
Huge
2015-10-07 00:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Post by nospam
Post by Huge
Post by FPP
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
sudo rm -rf /Applications/Photos.app
dumb idea. very dumb.
Indeed you are. Now fuck off and stop telling me how to maintain my own computer.
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Computer owner decides. It certainly isn't dumb. No GP computer should
be configured so that GP apps can cause a failure if they are removed.
Photos is not part of the OS.
Yes it is, according to Apple.
No it isn't, according to the only person who matters in this case; me.
Post by David Empson
You cannot delete or modify Photos.app in
El Capitan without disabling or bypassing SIP.
Which is exactly what I shall be doing.

If Apple provided a way to formally remove apps, I for one would be cheering then from the rooftops for SIP, but as it is they're basically a bunch of fascist arsewipes.
--
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my
attitude, that's your problem.
nospam
2015-10-07 00:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Computer owner decides. It certainly isn't dumb. No GP computer should
be configured so that GP apps can cause a failure if they are removed.
Photos is not part of the OS.
Yes it is, according to Apple.
No it isn't, according to the only person who matters in this case; me.
you don't get to decide what is system and what is not.

apple created the os and *they* decide.

write your own system and then you can decide.
Post by Huge
Post by David Empson
You cannot delete or modify Photos.app in
El Capitan without disabling or bypassing SIP.
Which is exactly what I shall be doing.
bypassing sip to delete an app that doesn't take up much space and does
nothing if it isn't launched is *really* stupid. plus, removing it will
likely cause problems later on.
Post by Huge
If Apple provided a way to formally remove apps, I for one would be cheering
then from the rooftops for SIP, but as it is they're basically a bunch of fascist arsewipes.
best you get rid of your mac.
JF Mezei
2015-10-07 04:37:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
bypassing sip to delete an app that doesn't take up much space and does
nothing if it isn't launched is *really* stupid. plus, removing it will
likely cause problems later on.
For upgrades, it wouldn't. Apple moves the existing system to different
directory, and then moves items in old directory not present in new
system to the new system. If Photos.App isn't present in old directory,
it wouldn't test to see if it was in the new one and just skip over it.

If doing an update, a new version of Photos.App would be downloaded, and
I suspect that the attempt to delete/rename the old one would fail but
update procedure would move the new one into place and no harm would be
done.

deleting an Apple supplied App will just result in it growing back into
your system eventually.
nospam
2015-10-07 10:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
bypassing sip to delete an app that doesn't take up much space and does
nothing if it isn't launched is *really* stupid. plus, removing it will
likely cause problems later on.
For upgrades, it wouldn't. Apple moves the existing system to different
directory, and then moves items in old directory not present in new
system to the new system. If Photos.App isn't present in old directory,
it wouldn't test to see if it was in the new one and just skip over it.
what you're describing is a system upgrade, not an update.

apple's update system relies on path names and is fundamentally broken.

if you move an app from its original location or delete it, the update
will blindly write the new parts to where it thinks the app originally
was *without* checking if it's really there, so you end up with a
partial app containing only the updated parts and leaving the
non-updated app wherever you moved it to.
Post by JF Mezei
If doing an update, a new version of Photos.App would be downloaded, and
I suspect that the attempt to delete/rename the old one would fail but
update procedure would move the new one into place and no harm would be
done.
you suspect wrong.
JF Mezei
2015-10-07 16:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
if you move an app from its original location or delete it, the update
will blindly write the new parts to where it thinks the app originally
was *without* checking if it's really there, so you end up with a
partial app containing only the updated parts and leaving the
non-updated app wherever you moved it to.
I had not considered Apple doing just "patches" inside the .app "file"
when updates are done. Assumed it would ship the fully populated .app
bundle.

I know that lots of apps updated over internet updates only parts of
themselves, didn't think Apple used that.
David Empson
2015-10-07 10:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
bypassing sip to delete an app that doesn't take up much space and does
nothing if it isn't launched is *really* stupid. plus, removing it will
likely cause problems later on.
For upgrades, it wouldn't. Apple moves the existing system to different
directory, and then moves items in old directory not present in new
system to the new system. If Photos.App isn't present in old directory,
it wouldn't test to see if it was in the new one and just skip over it.
Photos.App is part of the system, so that rule doesn't apply. The
upgrade script in the installer for the new system version has a list of
which applications are part of the old system version, and they are not
copied, whether or not they were actually there. A new version of the
application will be installed as part of the new system, if it is still
part of the system.

For example, Lion dropped Front Row, so upgrading from Snow Leopard to
Lion (or later) will not copy Front Row.app from the old system.
Post by JF Mezei
If doing an update, a new version of Photos.App would be downloaded, and
I suspect that the attempt to delete/rename the old one would fail but
update procedure would move the new one into place and no harm would be
done.
That isn't what happens. System updates install all changed parts of the
system as a single installer package/mpkg (whether the update happens to
be implemented as a patch, delta or combo, which is decided by the
Software Update engine based on what version/build is currently
installed). The updater doesn't care what is actually there - it expects
parts of the system to be in the correct location based on the version
number. It will create the necessary folders and copy the new/updated
files.

Photos is part of the system, so if you bypass SIP and delete it, a
subsequent update would install a partial copy of the Photos app (just
the files inside the application bundle which changed or were added).
This would leave you with a broken copy of the Photos application.
Post by JF Mezei
deleting an Apple supplied App will just result in it growing back into
your system eventually.
If the application is part of the system, it will not "grow" back to a
complete application - you'll just have parts of it and it will be
broken.

Usually the only way to get the entire application installed again is to
do a full system install (either a reinstall of the same version, or an
upgrade to a new major version).

There are some cases where a combo update is sufficient. e.g. in
Yosemite, Photos was added as part of 10.10.3, therefore a full copy of
the application is present in the combo updates for 10.10.3 and later,
also the delta update for 10.10.3 (but not the 10.10.4 and later delta
updates - they only contain partial updates to Photos).
--
David Empson
***@actrix.gen.nz
Alan Browne
2015-10-07 01:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Post by nospam
Post by Huge
Post by FPP
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
sudo rm -rf /Applications/Photos.app
dumb idea. very dumb.
Computer owner decides. It certainly isn't dumb. No GP computer should
be configured so that GP apps can cause a failure if they are removed.
Photos is not part of the OS.
Yes it is, according to Apple. You cannot delete or modify Photos.app in
El Capitan without disabling or bypassing SIP.
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Jolly Roger
2015-10-07 01:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Post by nospam
Post by Huge
Post by FPP
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
sudo rm -rf /Applications/Photos.app
dumb idea. very dumb.
Computer owner decides. It certainly isn't dumb. No GP computer should
be configured so that GP apps can cause a failure if they are removed.
Photos is not part of the OS.
Yes it is, according to Apple. You cannot delete or modify Photos.app in
El Capitan without disabling or bypassing SIP.
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Ummm, has anyone actually tried removing Photos to see what happens?
Hard to imagine the world will implode...
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
nospam
2015-10-07 01:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Ummm, has anyone actually tried removing Photos to see what happens?
Hard to imagine the world will implode...
since it's considered system software, parts or all of it will come
back in a system update.

it's 50 meg. who cares. ignore it. same for chess and all the other
apps that don't get used.
Jolly Roger
2015-10-07 01:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Jolly Roger
Ummm, has anyone actually tried removing Photos to see what happens?
Hard to imagine the world will implode...
since it's considered system software, parts or all of it will come
back in a system update.
I'm just curious, for all of the hemming and hawing, if anyone has
bothered to actually try removing it to see if there are any adverse
effects. Simple question.
Post by nospam
it's 50 meg. who cares. ignore it. same for chess and all the other
apps that don't get used.
I certainly don't care about it being on my machines. I use Photos and
don't mind it being there. And even if I didn't use it, I doubt it would
be my first choice of apps to delete to save space since it doesn't
consume much at all. Same goes for Chess, and other smallish apps.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
nospam
2015-10-07 01:18:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by nospam
it's 50 meg. who cares. ignore it. same for chess and all the other
apps that don't get used.
I certainly don't care about it being on my machines. I use Photos and
don't mind it being there. And even if I didn't use it, I doubt it would
be my first choice of apps to delete to save space since it doesn't
consume much at all. Same goes for Chess, and other smallish apps.
the number of people who actually use chess is a tiny, tiny fraction of
those who use (and even like) photos.

people are making a huge fuss over deleting it. for those who don't
want it to autolaunch, that can be disabled.
Jolly Roger
2015-10-07 01:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by nospam
it's 50 meg. who cares. ignore it. same for chess and all the other
apps that don't get used.
I certainly don't care about it being on my machines. I use Photos and
don't mind it being there. And even if I didn't use it, I doubt it would
be my first choice of apps to delete to save space since it doesn't
consume much at all. Same goes for Chess, and other smallish apps.
the number of people who actually use chess is a tiny, tiny fraction of
those who use (and even like) photos.
people are making a huge fuss over deleting it. for those who don't
want it to autolaunch, that can be disabled.
Right, and I'm just wondering if any of them have actually bothered to
try deleting it.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
JF Mezei
2015-10-07 04:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
it's 50 meg. who cares. ignore it.
I think that deleting the unwanted app is a means to prevent it from
being launched automatically without you wanting it.

Deleting it is seen as easier than trying to find out how Apple decides
to launch Photos when some card or camera is plugged in and changing it
to launch another app instead.

(I used Defaults Apps preference pane so for me that seems to work). I
have not seen "Photos" launch automatically my my recently upgraded
desktop).
Andre G. Isaak
2015-10-07 02:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Alan Browne
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Post by nospam
Post by Huge
Post by FPP
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
sudo rm -rf /Applications/Photos.app
dumb idea. very dumb.
Computer owner decides. It certainly isn't dumb. No GP computer should
be configured so that GP apps can cause a failure if they are removed.
Photos is not part of the OS.
Yes it is, according to Apple. You cannot delete or modify Photos.app in
El Capitan without disabling or bypassing SIP.
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Ummm, has anyone actually tried removing Photos to see what happens?
Hard to imagine the world will implode...
I tried to remove it in an alternate universe.

That universe is no longer there.

Andre
Alan Browne
2015-10-07 12:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Alan Browne
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Post by nospam
Post by Huge
Post by FPP
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
sudo rm -rf /Applications/Photos.app
dumb idea. very dumb.
Computer owner decides. It certainly isn't dumb. No GP computer should
be configured so that GP apps can cause a failure if they are removed.
Photos is not part of the OS.
Yes it is, according to Apple. You cannot delete or modify Photos.app in
El Capitan without disabling or bypassing SIP.
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Ummm, has anyone actually tried removing Photos to see what happens?
Hard to imagine the world will implode...
I tried to remove it (simply and conventionally) and it would not go.
Then I did the the one-by-one card "dismissal" so it doesn't autorun
when I connect my flash cards. Now it lays dormant, so that's that.

But looking forward to someone nuking it and seeing if it has any
effect. It shouldn't. But Apple are protecting the shit out of it for
some reason.
Savageduck
2015-10-07 13:58:52 UTC
Permalink
On 2015-10-07 12:42:26 +0000, Alan Browne
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Alan Browne
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Post by nospam
Post by Huge
Post by FPP
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
sudo rm -rf /Applications/Photos.app
dumb idea. very dumb.
Computer owner decides. It certainly isn't dumb. No GP computer should
be configured so that GP apps can cause a failure if they are removed.
Photos is not part of the OS.
Yes it is, according to Apple. You cannot delete or modify Photos.app in
El Capitan without disabling or bypassing SIP.
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Ummm, has anyone actually tried removing Photos to see what happens?
Hard to imagine the world will implode...
I tried to remove it (simply and conventionally) and it would not go.
Then I did the the one-by-one card "dismissal" so it doesn't autorun
when I connect my flash cards. Now it lays dormant, so that's that.
As part of that one-by-one method it is important to not forget about
addressing the issue with Image Capture as the default setting there
will open Photos and the ability to make the change can only be
effected with a device/camera/card mounted, not in preferences.
Post by Alan Browne
But looking forward to someone nuking it and seeing if it has any
effect. It shouldn't. But Apple are protecting the shit out of it for
some reason.
I suspect the reason they are protecting it is its integration with
iCloud and iOS device storage.
--
Regards,

Savageduck
JF Mezei
2015-10-07 16:59:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Savageduck
I suspect the reason they are protecting it is its integration with
iCloud and iOS device storage.
Since it is possible to use only iPhotos and not populate Photos with
any content, so it is doubtful the system has to rely on Photos.App.


When Yosemite presents me with a file selection dialogue, I get access
to the iPhotos "directories" (aka albums) and can choose from my iPhotos
content.

Yet, iPhotos is not a pre-requisite for Yosemite. So the file selection
dialogue somehow knows my photos are in an iPhoto database and not a
Photos one.

iTunes also has photos symching capability (sending photos to a phone),
so it would know to draw photos from iPhotos in my case and Photos in
Jolly Roger's case (he admitted to using Photos)
Jolly Roger
2015-10-07 17:10:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Savageduck
I suspect the reason they are protecting it is its integration with
iCloud and iOS device storage.
Since it is possible to use only iPhotos
It's "iPhoto" - singular.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
JF Mezei
2015-10-07 16:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
But looking forward to someone nuking it and seeing if it has any
effect. It shouldn't. But Apple are protecting the shit out of it for
some reason.
I don't think "photos" is specially targetted. It is just part of the
collection of files protected by SIP.
Alan Browne
2015-10-07 22:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
But looking forward to someone nuking it and seeing if it has any
effect. It shouldn't. But Apple are protecting the shit out of it for
some reason.
I don't think "photos" is specially targetted. It is just part of the
collection of files protected by SIP.
There is nothing special about a photo app that would require its
protection.
David Empson
2015-10-08 00:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
But looking forward to someone nuking it and seeing if it has any
effect. It shouldn't. But Apple are protecting the shit out of it for
some reason.
I don't think "photos" is specially targetted. It is just part of the
collection of files protected by SIP.
There is nothing special about a photo app that would require its
protection.
All applications installed as part of OS X are protected by SIP.

What is special about Chess.app and Photo Booth.app which requires
protection? Photos clearly has more important uses (e.g. iCloud Photo
Library support.)

iTunes appears to be an exception, possibly because it is updated
independently from OS X, even though it gets installed as part of a full
OS X install.

For a full list, see /System/Library/Sandbox/rootless.conf

If the first column is blank, everything under that path is protected
(unless another rule overrides it). If the first column is not blank, it
specifies the account or group name which is allowed to modify the, or *
for unprotected files/folders. Lines starting with a # are comments.

There are some odd rules in there, e.g. items can be added to
/System/Library/Extensions, but nothing inside that folder can be
modified.

I found one thing which I can't explain yet: while playing with El
Capitan, I deleted and recreated the /usr/X11 synlink (previously
created by installing XQuartz under Yosemite). According to
rootless.conf, I shouldn't have been able to do that, because /usr is
protected and there is no exception for /usr/X11. I wasn't able to
create a differently named symlink in /usr.
--
David Empson
***@actrix.gen.nz
Alan Browne
2015-10-08 12:44:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
But looking forward to someone nuking it and seeing if it has any
effect. It shouldn't. But Apple are protecting the shit out of it for
some reason.
I don't think "photos" is specially targetted. It is just part of the
collection of files protected by SIP.
There is nothing special about a photo app that would require its
protection.
All applications installed as part of OS X are protected by SIP.
Which is bizarre. Photos (a user utility app) is not "OS". It's just
an application and shouldn't really need special protection.
Post by David Empson
What is special about Chess.app and Photo Booth.app which requires
protection? Photos clearly has more important uses (e.g. iCloud Photo
Library support.)
Even there, if Photos is nuked by the user the OS (and related apps)
should be designed to not fail in its absence.
Post by David Empson
iTunes appears to be an exception, possibly because it is updated
independently from OS X, even though it gets installed as part of a full
OS X install.
All apps should have the ability to be updated independently (or
deleted) whether or not they're bundled with the OS.
Post by David Empson
For a full list, see /System/Library/Sandbox/rootless.conf
If the first column is blank, everything under that path is protected
(unless another rule overrides it). If the first column is not blank, it
specifies the account or group name which is allowed to modify the, or *
for unprotected files/folders. Lines starting with a # are comments.
Some homework for the weekend. Thanks.
Post by David Empson
There are some odd rules in there, e.g. items can be added to
/System/Library/Extensions, but nothing inside that folder can be
modified.
I found one thing which I can't explain yet: while playing with El
Capitan, I deleted and recreated the /usr/X11 synlink (previously
created by installing XQuartz under Yosemite). According to
rootless.conf, I shouldn't have been able to do that, because /usr is
protected and there is no exception for /usr/X11. I wasn't able to
create a differently named symlink in /usr.
John McWilliams
2015-10-08 15:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
But looking forward to someone nuking it and seeing if it has any
effect. It shouldn't. But Apple are protecting the shit out of it for
some reason.
I don't think "photos" is specially targetted. It is just part of the
collection of files protected by SIP.
There is nothing special about a photo app that would require its
protection.
All applications installed as part of OS X are protected by SIP.
Which is bizarre. Photos (a user utility app) is not "OS". It's just
an application and shouldn't really need special protection.
Post by David Empson
What is special about Chess.app and Photo Booth.app which requires
protection? Photos clearly has more important uses (e.g. iCloud Photo
Library support.)
Even there, if Photos is nuked by the user the OS (and related apps)
should be designed to not fail in its absence.
Post by David Empson
iTunes appears to be an exception, possibly because it is updated
independently from OS X, even though it gets installed as part of a full
OS X install.
All apps should have the ability to be updated independently (or
deleted) whether or not they're bundled with the OS.
Alan-

Your shoulds apparently are not shared by the Apple devs. Sorry.
JF Mezei
2015-10-08 17:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by John McWilliams
Your shoulds apparently are not shared by the Apple devs. Sorry.
I think this could just be laziness on the part of Apple. Easier to make
all the software "SIP" protected than to go through each
utilitiy/application to decide if the user should be allowed to trash it.

And while removing an app doesn't break the OS, it does cause problems
with a software update where only certain files in a .App
bundle/directory are replaced, which could end up recreating a
Photos.App with only a couple of patched ocmponents and not the full app.

Note that the update scripts should so a "If file exists, then patch
it", otherwise skip this test.
Alan Browne
2015-10-08 20:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by John McWilliams
Post by Alan Browne
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
But looking forward to someone nuking it and seeing if it has any
effect. It shouldn't. But Apple are protecting the shit out of it for
some reason.
I don't think "photos" is specially targetted. It is just part of the
collection of files protected by SIP.
There is nothing special about a photo app that would require its
protection.
All applications installed as part of OS X are protected by SIP.
Which is bizarre. Photos (a user utility app) is not "OS". It's just
an application and shouldn't really need special protection.
Post by David Empson
What is special about Chess.app and Photo Booth.app which requires
protection? Photos clearly has more important uses (e.g. iCloud Photo
Library support.)
Even there, if Photos is nuked by the user the OS (and related apps)
should be designed to not fail in its absence.
Post by David Empson
iTunes appears to be an exception, possibly because it is updated
independently from OS X, even though it gets installed as part of a full
OS X install.
All apps should have the ability to be updated independently (or
deleted) whether or not they're bundled with the OS.
Alan-
Your shoulds apparently are not shared by the Apple devs. Sorry.
Yes - another lamentable decision by Apple where they abandon good
systems practice. It's disappointing - but at least the workaround is
adequate.
Jolly Roger
2015-10-08 15:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by David Empson
What is special about Chess.app and Photo Booth.app which requires
protection? Photos clearly has more important uses (e.g. iCloud Photo
Library support.)
Even there, if Photos is nuked by the user the OS (and related apps)
should be designed to not fail in its absence.
Has anyone shown anything at all to fail?
--
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I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Alan Browne
2015-10-08 20:29:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Alan Browne
Post by David Empson
What is special about Chess.app and Photo Booth.app which requires
protection? Photos clearly has more important uses (e.g. iCloud Photo
Library support.)
Even there, if Photos is nuked by the user the OS (and related apps)
should be designed to not fail in its absence.
Has anyone shown anything at all to fail?
In the context of my sentence above, I don't know, 'cause I don't know
if anyone's managed to nuke it.
nospam
2015-10-07 01:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Computer owner decides. It certainly isn't dumb. No GP computer should
be configured so that GP apps can cause a failure if they are removed.
Photos is not part of the OS.
Yes it is, according to Apple. You cannot delete or modify Photos.app in
El Capitan without disabling or bypassing SIP.
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
it's 50meg. who cares. ignore it.
Jolly Roger
2015-10-07 01:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Alan Browne
Post by David Empson
Post by Alan Browne
Computer owner decides. It certainly isn't dumb. No GP computer should
be configured so that GP apps can cause a failure if they are removed.
Photos is not part of the OS.
Yes it is, according to Apple. You cannot delete or modify Photos.app in
El Capitan without disabling or bypassing SIP.
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
it's 50meg. who cares. ignore it.
I gotta say, I don't understand why this is such a big deal either. If
I didn't ever want it to launch, I'd remove execute permissions from the
app so it wouldn't ever launch.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
JF Mezei
2015-10-07 04:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
I didn't ever want it to launch, I'd remove execute permissions from the
app so it wouldn't ever launch.
If the app is SIP protected, you cannot change its permissions.
JF Mezei
2015-10-07 04:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Apple makes sure one can't hack/patch one of its applications.
Unfortunatly, preventing any modifications to the App also prevents its
deletion.

Out of curiosity: if sudo and/or root no longer have access to the full
system, is OS-X still "Unix certified" ?
Huge
2015-10-08 02:15:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Apple makes sure one can't hack/patch one of its applications.
Unfortunatly, preventing any modifications to the App also prevents its
deletion.
Out of curiosity: if sudo and/or root no longer have access to the full
system, is OS-X still "Unix certified" ?
OS-X never was 100% Unix compatible - HFS+ is very broken.
--
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my
attitude, that's your problem.
Snit
2015-10-08 02:41:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huge
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Apple makes sure one can't hack/patch one of its applications.
Unfortunatly, preventing any modifications to the App also prevents its
deletion.
Out of curiosity: if sudo and/or root no longer have access to the full
system, is OS-X still "Unix certified" ?
OS-X never was 100% Unix compatible - HFS+ is very broken.
OS X is a certified UNIX. Hard to get more compatible than that!

But, yes, HFS+ is outdated and it would be good to have it be replaced.
--
* OS X / Linux: What is a file? http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu: http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE
* Mint KDE working with folders: http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0
* Mint KDE creating files: http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8
* Mint KDE help: http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8
* Mint KDE general navigation: http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk
* OS / Word Processor Comparison: http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c
Huge
2015-10-08 02:58:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Huge
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Apple makes sure one can't hack/patch one of its applications.
Unfortunatly, preventing any modifications to the App also prevents its
deletion.
Out of curiosity: if sudo and/or root no longer have access to the full
system, is OS-X still "Unix certified" ?
OS-X never was 100% Unix compatible - HFS+ is very broken.
OS X is a certified UNIX.
I don't give a toss what pieces of paper there are.
--
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my
attitude, that's your problem.
Snit
2015-10-08 03:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huge
Post by Snit
Post by Huge
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Apple makes sure one can't hack/patch one of its applications.
Unfortunatly, preventing any modifications to the App also prevents its
deletion.
Out of curiosity: if sudo and/or root no longer have access to the full
system, is OS-X still "Unix certified" ?
OS-X never was 100% Unix compatible - HFS+ is very broken.
OS X is a certified UNIX.
I don't give a toss what pieces of paper there are.
So you make a claim about what OS X is or is not, and do not care what the
facts are. Once we get to that point it is quite clear there is no value to
your views.
--
* OS X / Linux: What is a file? http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu: http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE
* Mint KDE working with folders: http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0
* Mint KDE creating files: http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8
* Mint KDE help: http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8
* Mint KDE general navigation: http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk
* OS / Word Processor Comparison: http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c
Huge
2015-10-09 03:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by Huge
Post by Snit
Post by Huge
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Apple makes sure one can't hack/patch one of its applications.
Unfortunatly, preventing any modifications to the App also prevents its
deletion.
Out of curiosity: if sudo and/or root no longer have access to the full
system, is OS-X still "Unix certified" ?
OS-X never was 100% Unix compatible - HFS+ is very broken.
OS X is a certified UNIX.
I don't give a toss what pieces of paper there are.
So you make a claim about what OS X is or is not, and do not care what the
facts are. Once we get to that point it is quite clear there is no value to
your views.
Says the man with the arsewipe sig.

FOAD, there's a good little moron.

*plonk*

Fucking Apple fanbois.
--
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my
attitude, that's your problem.
Snit
2015-10-09 04:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huge
Post by Snit
Post by Huge
Post by Snit
Post by Huge
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Apple makes sure one can't hack/patch one of its applications.
Unfortunatly, preventing any modifications to the App also prevents its
deletion.
Out of curiosity: if sudo and/or root no longer have access to the full
system, is OS-X still "Unix certified" ?
OS-X never was 100% Unix compatible - HFS+ is very broken.
OS X is a certified UNIX.
I don't give a toss what pieces of paper there are.
So you make a claim about what OS X is or is not, and do not care what the
facts are. Once we get to that point it is quite clear there is no value to
your views.
Says the man with the arsewipe sig.
FOAD, there's a good little moron.
*plonk*
Fucking Apple fanbois.
Yeah, such a "fanboi" I noted OS X is a certified UNIX. Just insane!
--
* OS X / Linux: What is a file? http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu: http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE
* Mint KDE working with folders: http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0
* Mint KDE creating files: http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8
* Mint KDE help: http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8
* Mint KDE general navigation: http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk
* OS / Word Processor Comparison: http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c
nospam
2015-10-09 05:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huge
Post by Snit
Post by Huge
Post by Snit
Post by Huge
OS-X never was 100% Unix compatible - HFS+ is very broken.
OS X is a certified UNIX.
I don't give a toss what pieces of paper there are.
So you make a claim about what OS X is or is not, and do not care what the
facts are. Once we get to that point it is quite clear there is no value to
your views.
Says the man with the arsewipe sig.
FOAD, there's a good little moron.
*plonk*
Fucking Apple fanbois.
os x being certified unix has *nothing* to do with apple.

it's a separate entity entirely.
Lewis
2015-10-09 06:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Huge
Post by Snit
Post by Huge
Post by Snit
Post by Huge
OS-X never was 100% Unix compatible - HFS+ is very broken.
OS X is a certified UNIX.
I don't give a toss what pieces of paper there are.
So you make a claim about what OS X is or is not, and do not care what the
facts are. Once we get to that point it is quite clear there is no value to
your views.
Says the man with the arsewipe sig.
FOAD, there's a good little moron.
*plonk*
Fucking Apple fanbois.
os x being certified unix has *nothing* to do with apple.
Huge doesn't understand facts.
--
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat.
Huge
2015-10-09 14:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by nospam
Post by Huge
Post by Snit
Post by Huge
Post by Snit
Post by Huge
OS-X never was 100% Unix compatible - HFS+ is very broken.
OS X is a certified UNIX.
I don't give a toss what pieces of paper there are.
So you make a claim about what OS X is or is not, and do not care what the
facts are. Once we get to that point it is quite clear there is no value to
your views.
Says the man with the arsewipe sig.
FOAD, there's a good little moron.
*plonk*
Fucking Apple fanbois.
os x being certified unix has *nothing* to do with apple.
Huge doesn't understand facts.
Huge has been supporting Unix systems for over 40 years, has a firm grasp of the politics behind system certification and thinks that Apple fanbois are sad wankstains. Now FOAD. I'm sure there's a Steve Jobs circle jerk waiting for you somewhere.
--
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my
attitude, that's your problem.
Jolly Roger
2015-10-09 17:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huge
Post by Lewis
Huge doesn't understand facts.
Huge has been supporting Unix systems for over 40 years, has a firm
grasp of the politics behind system certification and thinks that
Apple fanbois are sad wankstains. Now FOAD. I'm sure there's a Steve
Jobs circle jerk waiting for you somewhere.
Awww, wittwe giwl got her feewings huwt? How adorable!
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Alan Browne
2015-10-09 17:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Lewis
Huge doesn't understand facts.
Huge has been supporting Unix systems for over 40 years, has a firm
grasp of the politics behind system certification and thinks that
Apple fanbois are sad wankstains. Now FOAD. I'm sure there's a Steve
Jobs circle jerk waiting for you somewhere.
Awww, wittwe giwl got her feewings huwt? How adorable!
Now, now, JR, if you make cutsie poo comments like that, it just
encourages them because they crave attention. Over 40 years of that has
to end at some point or it'll never find a husband.
Jolly Roger
2015-10-09 18:06:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Lewis
Huge doesn't understand facts.
Huge has been supporting Unix systems for over 40 years, has a firm
grasp of the politics behind system certification and thinks that
Apple fanbois are sad wankstains. Now FOAD. I'm sure there's a Steve
Jobs circle jerk waiting for you somewhere.
Awww, wittwe giwl got her feewings huwt? How adorable!
Now, now, JR, if you make cutsie poo comments like that, it just
encourages them because they crave attention. Over 40 years of that has
to end at some point or it'll never find a husband.
My apologies for prolonging the inevitable... : )
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Alan Browne
2015-10-09 19:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Lewis
Huge doesn't understand facts.
Huge has been supporting Unix systems for over 40 years, has a firm
grasp of the politics behind system certification and thinks that
Apple fanbois are sad wankstains. Now FOAD. I'm sure there's a Steve
Jobs circle jerk waiting for you somewhere.
Awww, wittwe giwl got her feewings huwt? How adorable!
Now, now, JR, if you make cutsie poo comments like that, it just
encourages them because they crave attention. Over 40 years of that has
to end at some point or it'll never find a husband.
My apologies for prolonging the inevitable... : )
More like evitable, but, whatever...
FPP
2015-10-09 19:21:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Lewis
Huge doesn't understand facts.
Huge has been supporting Unix systems for over 40 years, has a firm
grasp of the politics behind system certification and thinks that
Apple fanbois are sad wankstains. Now FOAD. I'm sure there's a Steve
Jobs circle jerk waiting for you somewhere.
Awww, wittwe giwl got her feewings huwt? How adorable!
Now, now, JR, if you make cutsie poo comments like that, it just
encourages them because they crave attention. Over 40 years of that has
to end at some point or it'll never find a husband.
My apologies for prolonging the inevitable... : )
I've found that people who call themselves "Huge", rarely are...
--
"A man's face is his autobiography. A woman's face is her work of
fiction." -Oscar Wilde
Huge
2015-10-11 16:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by FPP
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Huge
Post by Lewis
Huge doesn't understand facts.
Huge has been supporting Unix systems for over 40 years, has a firm
grasp of the politics behind system certification and thinks that
Apple fanbois are sad wankstains. Now FOAD. I'm sure there's a Steve
Jobs circle jerk waiting for you somewhere.
Awww, wittwe giwl got her feewings huwt? How adorable!
Now, now, JR, if you make cutsie poo comments like that, it just
encourages them because they crave attention. Over 40 years of that has
to end at some point or it'll never find a husband.
My apologies for prolonging the inevitable... : )
I've found that people who call themselves "Huge", rarely are...
But then, I think you're a cunt. And chances are, I'm right
--
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my
attitude, that's your problem.
nospam
2015-10-08 03:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
But, yes, HFS+ is outdated and it would be good to have it be replaced.
it's been updated over the years and works just fine.
Snit
2015-10-08 04:01:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
But, yes, HFS+ is outdated and it would be good to have it be replaced.
it's been updated over the years and works just fine.
I am FAR from an expert on file systems... but know it does not handle many
of the features of ZFS and the like such as block level backups and
checksums for integrity. Also recall something about it not being able to
handle requests as efficiently as NTFS, ext4, and the like - but cannot go
into detail or even be certain about that without Googling.

OK, decided to Google after I wrote that. STILL not an expert on this, but
assuming these are correct HFS+ has a lot of weaknesses:

<http://blog.barthe.ph/2014/06/10/hfs-plus-bit-rot/>
<http://rixstep.com/2/20031102,00.shtml>

Have read other stuff in the past that seems to fit with what these say,
from memory. But, again, I am NOT an expert in this area at all and these
articles could be completely wrong.

I will say I find OS X to be slower with heavy disk access than other OSs.
Might not be as big of a deal with the newer / more expensive Fusion drives
- but I do not have one. :)
--
* OS X / Linux: What is a file? http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu: http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE
* Mint KDE working with folders: http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0
* Mint KDE creating files: http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8
* Mint KDE help: http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8
* Mint KDE general navigation: http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk
* OS / Word Processor Comparison: http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c
nospam
2015-10-08 04:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
But, yes, HFS+ is outdated and it would be good to have it be replaced.
it's been updated over the years and works just fine.
I am FAR from an expert on file systems... but know it does not handle many
of the features of ZFS and the like such as block level backups and
checksums for integrity. Also recall something about it not being able to
handle requests as efficiently as NTFS, ext4, and the like - but cannot go
into detail or even be certain about that without Googling.
hfs was never intended to be like zfs, which has its share of issues
too.
Snit
2015-10-08 15:57:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
But, yes, HFS+ is outdated and it would be good to have it be replaced.
it's been updated over the years and works just fine.
I am FAR from an expert on file systems... but know it does not handle many
of the features of ZFS and the like such as block level backups and
checksums for integrity. Also recall something about it not being able to
handle requests as efficiently as NTFS, ext4, and the like - but cannot go
into detail or even be certain about that without Googling.
hfs was never intended to be like zfs, which has its share of issues
too.
Fair enough... but if it is true that it needs to do far more reads and
seeks and the like than it should then that slows it down. And I will say
that when my computer is doing lots of disk access it tends to slow down.
Again, might not be as big of a deal with the new Fusion drives which are
faster.
--
* OS X / Linux: What is a file? http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu: http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE
* Mint KDE working with folders: http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0
* Mint KDE creating files: http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8
* Mint KDE help: http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8
* Mint KDE general navigation: http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk
* OS / Word Processor Comparison: http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c
nospam
2015-10-08 16:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
But, yes, HFS+ is outdated and it would be good to have it be replaced.
it's been updated over the years and works just fine.
I am FAR from an expert on file systems... but know it does not handle many
of the features of ZFS and the like such as block level backups and
checksums for integrity. Also recall something about it not being able to
handle requests as efficiently as NTFS, ext4, and the like - but cannot go
into detail or even be certain about that without Googling.
hfs was never intended to be like zfs, which has its share of issues
too.
Fair enough... but if it is true that it needs to do far more reads and
seeks and the like than it should then that slows it down.
hfs doesn't need to do more reads and seeks than any other file system.
whoever said that is clueless.
Post by Snit
And I will say
that when my computer is doing lots of disk access it tends to slow down.
all computers slow down when doing a lot of disk access because disks
are relatively slow.
Post by Snit
Again, might not be as big of a deal with the new Fusion drives which are
faster.
ssd is *way* faster than hard drives. fusion drives are a mixed bag.
JF Mezei
2015-10-08 17:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
hfs doesn't need to do more reads and seeks than any other file system.
whoever said that is clueless.
It is often said that zfs requires a lot of RAM. This would imply more
caching of the file system and hence would make argument of fewer seeks
valid.
nospam
2015-10-08 17:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
hfs doesn't need to do more reads and seeks than any other file system.
whoever said that is clueless.
It is often said that zfs requires a lot of RAM. This would imply more
caching of the file system and hence would make argument of fewer seeks
valid.
the comparison wasn't about zfs, it was about ntfs, fat, ext and other
common file systems, and it's bullshit.
Snit
2015-10-08 18:05:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
But, yes, HFS+ is outdated and it would be good to have it be replaced.
it's been updated over the years and works just fine.
I am FAR from an expert on file systems... but know it does not handle many
of the features of ZFS and the like such as block level backups and
checksums for integrity. Also recall something about it not being able to
handle requests as efficiently as NTFS, ext4, and the like - but cannot go
into detail or even be certain about that without Googling.
hfs was never intended to be like zfs, which has its share of issues
too.
Fair enough... but if it is true that it needs to do far more reads and
seeks and the like than it should then that slows it down.
hfs doesn't need to do more reads and seeks than any other file system.
whoever said that is clueless.
Not at all an expert in this area and do not vouch for what I found but here
it is:

<http://rixstep.com/2/20031102,00.shtml>
-----
Every disk access on OS X goes to disk twice. At least twice.
That's right: accessing a file under OS X is slow. It has to be.
...
The implication of this 'caveat' is that a disk access in Mac OS X
requires at least two searches through the catalog file tree: the
first to determine the parent folder's CNID (this can be
recursive), and the second (or final) to find the file once the
CNID of the parent folder can be concatenated with the file name.
-----

Would love to see contrary information.
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
And I will say
that when my computer is doing lots of disk access it tends to slow down.
all computers slow down when doing a lot of disk access because disks
are relatively slow.
Post by Snit
Again, might not be as big of a deal with the new Fusion drives which are
faster.
ssd is *way* faster than hard drives. fusion drives are a mixed bag.
From reviews they MOSTLY give you the speed of SSD in most cases. Which is
pretty impressive, really.
--
* OS X / Linux: What is a file? http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu: http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE
* Mint KDE working with folders: http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0
* Mint KDE creating files: http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8
* Mint KDE help: http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8
* Mint KDE general navigation: http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk
* OS / Word Processor Comparison: http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c
nospam
2015-10-08 18:11:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
hfs doesn't need to do more reads and seeks than any other file system.
whoever said that is clueless.
Not at all an expert in this area and do not vouch for what I found but here
<http://rixstep.com/2/20031102,00.shtml>
-----
Every disk access on OS X goes to disk twice. At least twice.
That's right: accessing a file under OS X is slow. It has to be.
...
The implication of this 'caveat' is that a disk access in Mac OS X
requires at least two searches through the catalog file tree: the
first to determine the parent folder's CNID (this can be
recursive), and the second (or final) to find the file once the
CNID of the parent folder can be concatenated with the file name.
-----
Would love to see contrary information.
it's bullshit.
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
And I will say
that when my computer is doing lots of disk access it tends to slow down.
all computers slow down when doing a lot of disk access because disks
are relatively slow.
Post by Snit
Again, might not be as big of a deal with the new Fusion drives which are
faster.
ssd is *way* faster than hard drives. fusion drives are a mixed bag.
From reviews they MOSTLY give you the speed of SSD in most cases. Which is
pretty impressive, really.
fusion automatically shuffles commonly used files to the ssd. it's
basically a smart ssd cache.

if your workflow is with a small subset of files then there will be an
improvement, but if your workflow is with a wide variety of files, then
the difference is minimal.
Snit
2015-10-08 18:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
hfs doesn't need to do more reads and seeks than any other file system.
whoever said that is clueless.
Not at all an expert in this area and do not vouch for what I found but here
<http://rixstep.com/2/20031102,00.shtml>
-----
Every disk access on OS X goes to disk twice. At least twice.
That's right: accessing a file under OS X is slow. It has to be.
...
The implication of this 'caveat' is that a disk access in Mac OS X
requires at least two searches through the catalog file tree: the
first to determine the parent folder's CNID (this can be
recursive), and the second (or final) to find the file once the
CNID of the parent folder can be concatenated with the file name.
-----
Would love to see contrary information.
it's bullshit.
Could be. Would love to see a good source that shows one way or the other.
As I said, I really do not know.
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
And I will say
that when my computer is doing lots of disk access it tends to slow down.
all computers slow down when doing a lot of disk access because disks
are relatively slow.
Post by Snit
Again, might not be as big of a deal with the new Fusion drives which are
faster.
ssd is *way* faster than hard drives. fusion drives are a mixed bag.
From reviews they MOSTLY give you the speed of SSD in most cases. Which is
pretty impressive, really.
fusion automatically shuffles commonly used files to the ssd. it's
basically a smart ssd cache.
Right.
Post by nospam
if your workflow is with a small subset of files then there will be an
improvement, but if your workflow is with a wide variety of files, then
the difference is minimal.
I use a few VMs. I suspect that would reduce its value. Not a lot of files
but big ones with that. Plus I use quite a few small files.
--
* OS X / Linux: What is a file? http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu: http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE
* Mint KDE working with folders: http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0
* Mint KDE creating files: http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8
* Mint KDE help: http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8
* Mint KDE general navigation: http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk
* OS / Word Processor Comparison: http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c
Jolly Roger
2015-10-08 20:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
hfs doesn't need to do more reads and seeks than any other file system.
whoever said that is clueless.
Not at all an expert in this area and do not vouch for what I found but here
<http://rixstep.com/2/20031102,00.shtml>
-----
Every disk access on OS X goes to disk twice. At least twice.
That's right: accessing a file under OS X is slow. It has to be.
...
The implication of this 'caveat' is that a disk access in Mac OS X
requires at least two searches through the catalog file tree: the
first to determine the parent folder's CNID (this can be
recursive), and the second (or final) to find the file once the
CNID of the parent folder can be concatenated with the file name.
-----
Would love to see contrary information.
it's bullshit.
Could be. Would love to see a good source that shows one way or the other.
As I said, I really do not know.
Rixstep sells OS X file management and repair software. It's in his best
interests to convince potential customers they need his software due to
"horrible" problems with Apple's built-in software and file systems. ; )
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Snit
2015-10-08 23:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
hfs doesn't need to do more reads and seeks than any other file system.
whoever said that is clueless.
Not at all an expert in this area and do not vouch for what I found but here
<http://rixstep.com/2/20031102,00.shtml>
-----
Every disk access on OS X goes to disk twice. At least twice.
That's right: accessing a file under OS X is slow. It has to be.
...
The implication of this 'caveat' is that a disk access in Mac OS X
requires at least two searches through the catalog file tree: the
first to determine the parent folder's CNID (this can be
recursive), and the second (or final) to find the file once the
CNID of the parent folder can be concatenated with the file name.
-----
Would love to see contrary information.
it's bullshit.
Could be. Would love to see a good source that shows one way or the other.
As I said, I really do not know.
Rixstep sells OS X file management and repair software. It's in his best
interests to convince potential customers they need his software due to
"horrible" problems with Apple's built-in software and file systems. ; )
Fair enough... but would still like a reputable source to see what the truth
is about HFS+. As I said, I do not really know. NOT vouching for the sources
I am posting, just noting what I have read.
--
* OS X / Linux: What is a file? http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu: http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE
* Mint KDE working with folders: http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0
* Mint KDE creating files: http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8
* Mint KDE help: http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8
* Mint KDE general navigation: http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk
* OS / Word Processor Comparison: http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c
JF Mezei
2015-10-08 18:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
fusion automatically shuffles commonly used files to the ssd. it's
basically a smart ssd cache.
Architecturally extremely different from a cache. It is a bound volume
set where the file system consists of 2 or more devices.

When a file is moved to the SSD, it is removed from the spinning disk,
and the file's entry now points to blocks that are physically on SSD.

The SSD is not a cached version of the file on spinning disk.

The reason this is extremely different is that in case of disk
corruption, bound volume sets can result in serious loss of files.

For instance, if the catalogue is on the SSD, and you lose the SSD, your
spinning disk may still have the data for many many files, but not
catalogue to access them.

Note: Apple may have implemented it do the catalogue is duplicated or
some other way to mitigate the loss of the master disk that contains the
catalogue file.
nospam
2015-10-08 18:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
fusion automatically shuffles commonly used files to the ssd. it's
basically a smart ssd cache.
Architecturally extremely different from a cache. It is a bound volume
set where the file system consists of 2 or more devices.
When a file is moved to the SSD, it is removed from the spinning disk,
and the file's entry now points to blocks that are physically on SSD.
The SSD is not a cached version of the file on spinning disk.
thus the term 'smart cache'.
JF Mezei
2015-10-08 20:09:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
thus the term 'smart cache'.
Cache, by definition is a copy of the data. And copies involve cache
coherence problems.

The "fUsion" is smart placement of files. Not a cache.
Lewis
2015-10-08 22:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by nospam
thus the term 'smart cache'.
Cache, by definition is a copy of the data.
Nope.
--
A: You're wrong
Q: I've never found that to be true
A: Because it make following messages more difficult
Q: Why is top-posting evil?
David Empson
2015-10-08 23:09:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
But, yes, HFS+ is outdated and it would be good to have it be replaced.
it's been updated over the years and works just fine.
I am FAR from an expert on file systems... but know it does not
handle many of the features of ZFS and the like such as block level
backups and checksums for integrity. Also recall something about it
not being able to handle requests as efficiently as NTFS, ext4, and
the like - but cannot go into detail or even be certain about that
without Googling.
hfs was never intended to be like zfs, which has its share of issues
too.
Fair enough... but if it is true that it needs to do far more reads and
seeks and the like than it should then that slows it down.
hfs doesn't need to do more reads and seeks than any other file system.
whoever said that is clueless.
Not at all an expert in this area and do not vouch for what I found but here
<http://rixstep.com/2/20031102,00.shtml>
-----
Every disk access on OS X goes to disk twice. At least twice.
That's right: accessing a file under OS X is slow. It has to be.
...
The implication of this 'caveat' is that a disk access in Mac OS X
requires at least two searches through the catalog file tree: the
first to determine the parent folder's CNID (this can be
recursive), and the second (or final) to find the file once the
CNID of the parent folder can be concatenated with the file name.
-----
Would love to see contrary information.
The double search in the catalog tree is true in the case where a file
needs to be located using its file ID. Where it goes wrong is that this
is not the usual method of finding a file.

Even when this method does need to be used, the catalog tree is probably
cached in memory, so it wouldn't involve two disk accesses.

Detail:

The catalog tree in HFS+ is a B*-tree sorted on a primary key of
(Catalog Node ID, filename). The CNID field is a 32-bit number which
uniquely identifies a file or folder within a volume.

There are two ways to locate a file within the catalog:

(a) Using the parent folder's ID, combined with the name of the file.
(b) Using the file's ID.

This is implemented as two entries in the catalog tree for each file.

The first entry is the "file record". It is located using the parent
folder ID and filename, so it allows the system to locate files by name.
The file record holds metadata (including the file ID, date/time stamps
and Finder info) and links to the file data. The sort order means that
files in the same folder have adjacent entries in the catalog tree,
allowing linear operations to be done in cases such as presenting a
directory listing.

The second entry is a "file thread record" which is located using the
file ID and points to the file record. These entries allow the system to
locate a file using just the file ID. The file thread record contains a
copy of the parent folder ID and filename.

Mac-native applications using standard APIs reference files using alias
records (which are also stored in alias files). Alias records contain
all three pieces of information: parent folder ID, filename, and file
ID. Given an alias record, the system tries to locate the file first
using the parent folder ID and filename (one catalog tree search). If
the file has been renamed or moved, then a second catalog tree search is
done using the file ID, which locates the file thread record pointing to
the new parent folder ID and filename, then a third catalog tree search
is used to get to the file record.

In OS X, many file search operations are done using a relative or
absolute pathname, with no ID numbers known. In this case, the system
parses the pathname, locates each folder in turn from the root (which
has a fixed parent folder ID) or current directory, until it gets the
folder ID of the target file's parent folder, then the final directory
lookup gets the file record. This is exactly how it works on other file
systems given a pathname.

The only case I can think of where the described scenario applies is if
an application was storing file IDs to locate its files. This might
happen in some POSIX applications which keep references to inode numbers
rather than pathnames, but it doesn't apply to the vast majority of
native Mac applications, nor to parts of the OS which understand that
alias records are a more efficient method to keep track of files.
--
David Empson
***@actrix.gen.nz
Snit
2015-10-09 00:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Empson
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
But, yes, HFS+ is outdated and it would be good to have it be replaced.
it's been updated over the years and works just fine.
I am FAR from an expert on file systems... but know it does not
handle many of the features of ZFS and the like such as block level
backups and checksums for integrity. Also recall something about it
not being able to handle requests as efficiently as NTFS, ext4, and
the like - but cannot go into detail or even be certain about that
without Googling.
hfs was never intended to be like zfs, which has its share of issues
too.
Fair enough... but if it is true that it needs to do far more reads and
seeks and the like than it should then that slows it down.
hfs doesn't need to do more reads and seeks than any other file system.
whoever said that is clueless.
Not at all an expert in this area and do not vouch for what I found but here
<http://rixstep.com/2/20031102,00.shtml>
-----
Every disk access on OS X goes to disk twice. At least twice.
That's right: accessing a file under OS X is slow. It has to be.
...
The implication of this 'caveat' is that a disk access in Mac OS X
requires at least two searches through the catalog file tree: the
first to determine the parent folder's CNID (this can be
recursive), and the second (or final) to find the file once the
CNID of the parent folder can be concatenated with the file name.
-----
Would love to see contrary information.
The double search in the catalog tree is true in the case where a file
needs to be located using its file ID. Where it goes wrong is that this
is not the usual method of finding a file.
Even when this method does need to be used, the catalog tree is probably
cached in memory, so it wouldn't involve two disk accesses.
Makes sense... though still would like an authoritative source. But, sure,
if it is accessed often seems it would almost surely be in memory.
Post by David Empson
The catalog tree in HFS+ is a B*-tree sorted on a primary key of
(Catalog Node ID, filename). The CNID field is a 32-bit number which
uniquely identifies a file or folder within a volume.
(a) Using the parent folder's ID, combined with the name of the file.
(b) Using the file's ID.
This is implemented as two entries in the catalog tree for each file.
The first entry is the "file record". It is located using the parent
folder ID and filename, so it allows the system to locate files by name.
The file record holds metadata (including the file ID, date/time stamps
and Finder info) and links to the file data. The sort order means that
files in the same folder have adjacent entries in the catalog tree,
allowing linear operations to be done in cases such as presenting a
directory listing.
The second entry is a "file thread record" which is located using the
file ID and points to the file record. These entries allow the system to
locate a file using just the file ID. The file thread record contains a
copy of the parent folder ID and filename.
Mac-native applications using standard APIs reference files using alias
records (which are also stored in alias files). Alias records contain
all three pieces of information: parent folder ID, filename, and file
ID. Given an alias record, the system tries to locate the file first
using the parent folder ID and filename (one catalog tree search). If
the file has been renamed or moved, then a second catalog tree search is
done using the file ID, which locates the file thread record pointing to
the new parent folder ID and filename, then a third catalog tree search
is used to get to the file record.
In OS X, many file search operations are done using a relative or
absolute pathname, with no ID numbers known. In this case, the system
parses the pathname, locates each folder in turn from the root (which
has a fixed parent folder ID) or current directory, until it gets the
folder ID of the target file's parent folder, then the final directory
lookup gets the file record. This is exactly how it works on other file
systems given a pathname.
The only case I can think of where the described scenario applies is if
an application was storing file IDs to locate its files. This might
happen in some POSIX applications which keep references to inode numbers
rather than pathnames, but it doesn't apply to the vast majority of
native Mac applications, nor to parts of the OS which understand that
alias records are a more efficient method to keep track of files.
Maybe I am not understanding, but most Mac programs are not path-based
though. I can move and re-name a file and the program still can find it in
its "Open Recent" menu, for example.
--
* OS X / Linux: What is a file? http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu: http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE
* Mint KDE working with folders: http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0
* Mint KDE creating files: http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8
* Mint KDE help: http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8
* Mint KDE general navigation: http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk
* OS / Word Processor Comparison: http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c
David Empson
2015-10-09 01:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snit
Post by David Empson
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
Post by nospam
Post by Snit
But, yes, HFS+ is outdated and it would be good to have it be replaced.
it's been updated over the years and works just fine.
I am FAR from an expert on file systems... but know it does not
handle many of the features of ZFS and the like such as block level
backups and checksums for integrity. Also recall something about it
not being able to handle requests as efficiently as NTFS, ext4, and
the like - but cannot go into detail or even be certain about that
without Googling.
hfs was never intended to be like zfs, which has its share of issues
too.
Fair enough... but if it is true that it needs to do far more reads and
seeks and the like than it should then that slows it down.
hfs doesn't need to do more reads and seeks than any other file system.
whoever said that is clueless.
Not at all an expert in this area and do not vouch for what I found but
<http://rixstep.com/2/20031102,00.shtml>
-----
Every disk access on OS X goes to disk twice. At least twice.
That's right: accessing a file under OS X is slow. It has to be.
...
The implication of this 'caveat' is that a disk access in Mac OS X
requires at least two searches through the catalog file tree: the
first to determine the parent folder's CNID (this can be
recursive), and the second (or final) to find the file once the
CNID of the parent folder can be concatenated with the file name.
-----
Would love to see contrary information.
The double search in the catalog tree is true in the case where a file
needs to be located using its file ID. Where it goes wrong is that this
is not the usual method of finding a file.
Even when this method does need to be used, the catalog tree is probably
cached in memory, so it wouldn't involve two disk accesses.
Makes sense... though still would like an authoritative source. But, sure,
if it is accessed often seems it would almost surely be in memory.
The authoratitive source is reference to the Mac developer
documentation, and the technical note describing the implementation of
HFS+, which Apple no longer publishes (somewhat outdated copies can be
found elsewhere - look for "TN1150 HFS Plus Volume Format"). I
summarised the relevant part below.
Post by Snit
Post by David Empson
The catalog tree in HFS+ is a B*-tree sorted on a primary key of
(Catalog Node ID, filename). The CNID field is a 32-bit number which
uniquely identifies a file or folder within a volume.
(a) Using the parent folder's ID, combined with the name of the file.
(b) Using the file's ID.
This is implemented as two entries in the catalog tree for each file.
The first entry is the "file record". It is located using the parent
folder ID and filename, so it allows the system to locate files by name.
The file record holds metadata (including the file ID, date/time stamps
and Finder info) and links to the file data. The sort order means that
files in the same folder have adjacent entries in the catalog tree,
allowing linear operations to be done in cases such as presenting a
directory listing.
The second entry is a "file thread record" which is located using the
file ID and points to the file record. These entries allow the system to
locate a file using just the file ID. The file thread record contains a
copy of the parent folder ID and filename.
Mac-native applications using standard APIs reference files using alias
records (which are also stored in alias files). Alias records contain
all three pieces of information: parent folder ID, filename, and file
ID. Given an alias record, the system tries to locate the file first
using the parent folder ID and filename (one catalog tree search). If
the file has been renamed or moved, then a second catalog tree search is
done using the file ID, which locates the file thread record pointing to
the new parent folder ID and filename, then a third catalog tree search
is used to get to the file record.
In OS X, many file search operations are done using a relative or
absolute pathname, with no ID numbers known. In this case, the system
parses the pathname, locates each folder in turn from the root (which
has a fixed parent folder ID) or current directory, until it gets the
folder ID of the target file's parent folder, then the final directory
lookup gets the file record. This is exactly how it works on other file
systems given a pathname.
The only case I can think of where the described scenario applies is if
an application was storing file IDs to locate its files. This might
happen in some POSIX applications which keep references to inode numbers
rather than pathnames, but it doesn't apply to the vast majority of
native Mac applications, nor to parts of the OS which understand that
alias records are a more efficient method to keep track of files.
Maybe I am not understanding, but most Mac programs are not path-based
though. I can move and re-name a file and the program still can find it in
its "Open Recent" menu, for example.
The path-based ones are typically lower level parts of the system using
text paths in config files, e.g. things like launchd.

Most Mac GUI applications which store references to files do so using
alias records: the open file dialog returns an alias record, which is
passed to subsequent APIs to open and otherwise manipulate the file.

Open Recent should store alias records as a blob in the application
preference file. The structure of the alias record is private to the
system, but APIs are available to derive information such as pathnames.

If the application stores a pathname instead of an alias record, then
its "Open Recent" entry will break if the file is renamed or moved. An
alias record allows the file to be tracked as long as it remains on the
same volume.

If the application went to the trouble of getting the file ID and stored
that instead of the alias record, it would break if the file was deleted
and replaced with a new file with the same name in the same folder.

Assuming the application has an alias record, then as I described above,
a single catalog tree lookup is required to access the file (using the
parent folder ID and filename stored in the alias record).

If the file has been moved (within the volume) or renamed, then three
catalog tree lookups are required - the failed attempt using the old
parent/filename, then a file ID lookup to get the new parent/filename
(which updates the alias record), then opening the file with the new
parent/filename.
--
David Empson
***@actrix.gen.nz
Snit
2015-10-09 02:06:27 UTC
Permalink
On 10/8/15, 6:31 PM, in article
1mc13ek.1fayh5b1rua91jN%***@actrix.gen.nz, "David Empson"
<***@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

...
Post by David Empson
Post by Snit
Makes sense... though still would like an authoritative source. But, sure,
if it is accessed often seems it would almost surely be in memory.
The authoratitive source is reference to the Mac developer
documentation, and the technical note describing the implementation of
HFS+, which Apple no longer publishes (somewhat outdated copies can be
found elsewhere - look for "TN1150 HFS Plus Volume Format"). I
summarised the relevant part below.
Awesome. Thanks.
Post by David Empson
Post by Snit
Post by David Empson
The catalog tree in HFS+ is a B*-tree sorted on a primary key of
(Catalog Node ID, filename). The CNID field is a 32-bit number which
uniquely identifies a file or folder within a volume.
(a) Using the parent folder's ID, combined with the name of the file.
(b) Using the file's ID.
This is implemented as two entries in the catalog tree for each file.
The first entry is the "file record". It is located using the parent
folder ID and filename, so it allows the system to locate files by name.
The file record holds metadata (including the file ID, date/time stamps
and Finder info) and links to the file data. The sort order means that
files in the same folder have adjacent entries in the catalog tree,
allowing linear operations to be done in cases such as presenting a
directory listing.
The second entry is a "file thread record" which is located using the
file ID and points to the file record. These entries allow the system to
locate a file using just the file ID. The file thread record contains a
copy of the parent folder ID and filename.
Mac-native applications using standard APIs reference files using alias
records (which are also stored in alias files). Alias records contain
all three pieces of information: parent folder ID, filename, and file
ID. Given an alias record, the system tries to locate the file first
using the parent folder ID and filename (one catalog tree search). If
the file has been renamed or moved, then a second catalog tree search is
done using the file ID, which locates the file thread record pointing to
the new parent folder ID and filename, then a third catalog tree search
is used to get to the file record.
In OS X, many file search operations are done using a relative or
absolute pathname, with no ID numbers known. In this case, the system
parses the pathname, locates each folder in turn from the root (which
has a fixed parent folder ID) or current directory, until it gets the
folder ID of the target file's parent folder, then the final directory
lookup gets the file record. This is exactly how it works on other file
systems given a pathname.
The only case I can think of where the described scenario applies is if
an application was storing file IDs to locate its files. This might
happen in some POSIX applications which keep references to inode numbers
rather than pathnames, but it doesn't apply to the vast majority of
native Mac applications, nor to parts of the OS which understand that
alias records are a more efficient method to keep track of files.
Maybe I am not understanding, but most Mac programs are not path-based
though. I can move and re-name a file and the program still can find it in
its "Open Recent" menu, for example.
The path-based ones are typically lower level parts of the system using
text paths in config files, e.g. things like launchd.
Most Mac GUI applications which store references to files do so using
alias records: the open file dialog returns an alias record, which is
passed to subsequent APIs to open and otherwise manipulate the file.
Open Recent should store alias records as a blob in the application
preference file. The structure of the alias record is private to the
system, but APIs are available to derive information such as pathnames.
If the application stores a pathname instead of an alias record, then
its "Open Recent" entry will break if the file is renamed or moved. An
alias record allows the file to be tracked as long as it remains on the
same volume.
If the application went to the trouble of getting the file ID and stored
that instead of the alias record, it would break if the file was deleted
and replaced with a new file with the same name in the same folder.
Assuming the application has an alias record, then as I described above,
a single catalog tree lookup is required to access the file (using the
parent folder ID and filename stored in the alias record).
If the file has been moved (within the volume) or renamed, then three
catalog tree lookups are required - the failed attempt using the old
parent/filename, then a file ID lookup to get the new parent/filename
(which updates the alias record), then opening the file with the new
parent/filename.
Thanks. Sincerely appreciate it.
--
* OS X / Linux: What is a file? http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu: http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE
* Mint KDE working with folders: http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0
* Mint KDE creating files: http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8
* Mint KDE help: http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8
* Mint KDE general navigation: http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux: http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk
* OS / Word Processor Comparison: http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c
nospam
2015-10-08 03:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huge
OS-X never was 100% Unix compatible
os x is not only 100% unix compatible, but it's officially certified
unix.
Post by Huge
- HFS+ is very broken.
nonsense.
Jolly Roger
2015-10-08 17:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huge
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
I meant that it should not be so designed. There is nothing about apps
(for fricking photos!) that should be deeply hooked to the OS that they
can't be removed.
Apple makes sure one can't hack/patch one of its applications.
Unfortunatly, preventing any modifications to the App also prevents its
deletion.
Out of curiosity: if sudo and/or root no longer have access to the full
system, is OS-X still "Unix certified" ?
OS-X never was 100% Unix compatible - HFS+ is very broken.
False on both counts.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Snit
2015-10-06 23:18:55 UTC
Permalink
On 10/6/15, 10:05 AM, in article
Post by Alan Browne
Post by nospam
Post by Huge
Post by FPP
How would you delete it?
Eve since Yosemite, I've been unable to delete ANY app Apple supplies.
sudo rm -rf /Applications/Photos.app
dumb idea. very dumb.
Computer owner decides. It certainly isn't dumb. No GP computer should
be configured so that GP apps can cause a failure if they are removed.
Photos is not part of the OS.
I see where you are coming from and get that might be how it "should" be,
but Apple does have it more and more integrated. If nothing else it is tied
to the system wide Media Browser.
--
* OS X / Linux: What is a file?

* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu:

* Mint KDE working with folders:

* Mint KDE creating files:

* Mint KDE help:

* Mint KDE general navigation:

* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs?

* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux:

* OS / Word Processor Comparison:

JF Mezei
2015-10-05 23:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huge
sudo rm -rf /Applications/Photos.app
sudo doesn't work against protections of SIP (System Integrity Protection).

Although Applications directory isn't SIP locked, I believe that Apple
supplied apps are SIP protected to prevent them being hacked (both on
disk and during execution).
Jolly Roger
2015-10-05 23:32:34 UTC
Permalink
I believe that Apple supplied apps are SIP protected to prevent them
being hacked (both on disk and during execution).
Really? According to whom?
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
David Empson
2015-10-06 01:17:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jolly Roger
I believe that Apple supplied apps are SIP protected to prevent them
being hacked (both on disk and during execution).
Really? According to whom?
According to Apple.

https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/Security/Conceptual/System_Integrity_Protection_Guide/Introduction/Introduction.html

(Yes, I know the URL and heading say it is in the iOS developer library,
but it is documenting the OS X feature.)

Under "File System Protections":

[quote]
Apple app directories in /Applications are restricted to the system.
[/quote]

This document is not 100% accurate. It claims /Applications/Utilities is
protected, but in on my test install, I am able to modify the Utilities
folder without having to disable SIP (permissions still require admin
authentication).

I tried these locations (sudo touch test) and got an "Operation not
permitted", which proves SIP is enabled:

/System/
/usr/
/Applications/Mail.app/
/Applications/Photos.app/
/Applications/Utilities/Activity Monitor.app/

I have XQuartz installed (retained over upgrade from Yosemite), and it
still worked, plus I can delete and recreate the symbolic link from
/usr/X11 to /opt/X11. It appears the specific /usr/X11 path is an
exception to the general protection on /usr (as is the case for
everything under /usr/local/).

/Applications/iTunes.app/ is not protected by SIP.
--
David Empson
***@actrix.gen.nz
Jolly Roger
2015-10-06 01:26:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Empson
Post by Jolly Roger
I believe that Apple supplied apps are SIP protected to prevent them
being hacked (both on disk and during execution).
Really? According to whom?
According to Apple.
https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/Security/Conceptual/System_Integrity_Protection_Guide/Introduction/Introduction.html
(Yes, I know the URL and heading say it is in the iOS developer library,
but it is documenting the OS X feature.)
[quote]
Apple app directories in /Applications are restricted to the system.
[/quote]
Ok. Thanks. : )
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Savageduck
2015-10-05 03:07:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davoud
I don't mind having unused software on my HDs, but I mind that my Macs
can't remember what to do when I plug in one of the numerous CF or SD
cards that I use, and that Photos.app usually opens when I put a card
in my reader or connect an iOS device.
I too have no use for Photos and I have made some general fixes:
1: In Photos preferences "General" uncheck "Importing: Copy Items to
the Photos library"
2: In Photos preferences "iCloud" uncheck everything.
3: If using a CF or SD card from a camera not used before, open Photos
and make sure that "Open Photos for this device" (found in the Photos
menu bar) is unchecked.

4: With "Image Capture" open, and with a CF, SD card, camera, or
iDevice attached, check the drop down menu and ensure that "Import To"
is set to other than an App (the default is Photos) I have mine set to
"Desktop", but since I import all my work into Lightroom, I have only
had to do this once.

So far I have not had to bother with Photos since taking those steps.
It lies dormant and forgotten in the Applications folder.
Post by Davoud
For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.
TIA!
That would be nice, but it seems that Apple insists that it remains
there as a reminder that from time-to-time they screw up some things.
Photos is a prime example.
--
Regards,

Savageduck
Alan Browne
2015-10-05 21:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davoud
I don't mind having unused software on my HDs, but I mind that my Macs
can't remember what to do when I plug in one of the numerous CF or SD
cards that I use, and that Photos.app usually opens when I put a card
in my reader or connect an iOS device.
For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.
What Nospam said.
Davoud
2015-10-06 00:50:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Davoud
I don't mind having unused software on my HDs, but I mind that my Macs
can't remember what to do when I plug in one of the numerous CF or SD
cards that I use, and that Photos.app usually opens when I put a card
in my reader or connect an iOS device.
For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.
What Nospam said.
OK, I had to turn to groups.google.com to read what nospam said because
nospam is in my kill-file.

So here's What Nospam Said:
"to stop auto-launch, all you need to do is launch either photos or
image capture and then disable auto-launch for each camera and card you
have.

"you have to do it for each one..."

"What nospam said" does not work for me. It was, of course, the first
thing I tried. 11 cards, two Macs, 22 tries. I decided not to do it 22
more times on the other two Macs that are in use for photography. The
Macs forget my instructions for the memory cards. I do not connect
cameras by USB except when I plug in an iThingie.

And that's why I would like to delete Photos.app.
--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
Jolly Roger
2015-10-06 01:00:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davoud
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Davoud
I don't mind having unused software on my HDs, but I mind that my Macs
can't remember what to do when I plug in one of the numerous CF or SD
cards that I use, and that Photos.app usually opens when I put a card
in my reader or connect an iOS device.
For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.
What Nospam said.
OK, I had to turn to groups.google.com to read what nospam said because
nospam is in my kill-file.
"to stop auto-launch, all you need to do is launch either photos or
image capture and then disable auto-launch for each camera and card you
have.
"you have to do it for each one..."
"What nospam said" does not work for me. It was, of course, the first
thing I tried. 11 cards, two Macs, 22 tries. I decided not to do it 22
more times on the other two Macs that are in use for photography. The
Macs forget my instructions for the memory cards. I do not connect
cameras by USB except when I plug in an iThingie.
And that's why I would like to delete Photos.app.
You could try simply removing execute permissions from the app in
question - for instance:

chmod a-x /Applications/Photos.app

That way the app and associated libraries can remain on the system
without the app running.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
Alan Browne
2015-10-06 17:09:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davoud
Post by Alan Browne
Post by Davoud
I don't mind having unused software on my HDs, but I mind that my Macs
can't remember what to do when I plug in one of the numerous CF or SD
cards that I use, and that Photos.app usually opens when I put a card
in my reader or connect an iOS device.
For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.
What Nospam said.
OK, I had to turn to groups.google.com to read what nospam said because
nospam is in my kill-file.
"to stop auto-launch, all you need to do is launch either photos or
image capture and then disable auto-launch for each camera and card you
have.
"you have to do it for each one..."
"What nospam said" does not work for me. It was, of course, the first
thing I tried. 11 cards, two Macs, 22 tries. I decided not to do it 22
more times on the other two Macs that are in use for photography. The
Macs forget my instructions for the memory cards. I do not connect
cameras by USB except when I plug in an iThingie.
I had no issue with it over half a dozen cards - just untick the "Open
Photos for this device" in the upper left corner of Photos. 11 cards?
Shouldn't take more than a few minutes to cycle through the deck.
JF Mezei
2015-10-06 23:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
I had no issue with it over half a dozen cards - just untick the "Open
Photos for this device" in the upper left corner of Photos. 11 cards?
Shouldn't take more than a few minutes to cycle through the deck.
When one inserts a SD card (which is really a USB device to the OS),
what process happens to cause it to be handled as a camera (with
appropriate app launched) versus being treated as a USB mounted disk ?

Does the OS look for a "DCIM" (or whatever) folder on a newly mounted
disk to decide to treat it as a camera ? Does the OS synthetize a
virtual camera with which the selected app interacts ? (aka: does the
app think it is importing from a camera, or does it see an actual disk ? )


I don't recall seeing the OS treating an SC card as camera, but it has
been a while since I inserted an SD card with photos on them.
Savageduck
2015-10-06 23:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
I had no issue with it over half a dozen cards - just untick the "Open
Photos for this device" in the upper left corner of Photos. 11 cards?
Shouldn't take more than a few minutes to cycle through the deck.
When one inserts a SD card (which is really a USB device to the OS),
what process happens to cause it to be handled as a camera (with
appropriate app launched) versus being treated as a USB mounted disk ?
Does the OS look for a "DCIM" (or whatever) folder on a newly mounted
disk to decide to treat it as a camera ? Does the OS synthetize a
virtual camera with which the selected app interacts ? (aka: does the
app think it is importing from a camera, or does it see an actual disk ? )
With a CF/SD card formatted in a camera there will be a camera specific
DCIM folder, contained in that folder will be a nested folder labelled
with the camera manufacturer's name and folder number giving you
something such as this: 100_FUJI, 101_FUJI, 100_D300S, 101_D300S, etc.

Once Photos and Image Capture have been configured not to open files
from the device/card/camera, you will be blisfully undisturbed by
Photos.
Post by JF Mezei
I don't recall seeing the OS treating an SC card as camera, but it has
been a while since I inserted an SD card with photos on them.
It is the software treating the SD/CF card as a device. The mounted
card will still be accessible via the Finder. Lightroom it will treat a
mounted card as an Import source. Bridge will treat a mounted card as a
drive.
--
Regards,

Savageduck
David Empson
2015-10-06 23:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by Alan Browne
I had no issue with it over half a dozen cards - just untick the "Open
Photos for this device" in the upper left corner of Photos. 11 cards?
Shouldn't take more than a few minutes to cycle through the deck.
When one inserts a SD card (which is really a USB device to the OS),
what process happens to cause it to be handled as a camera (with
appropriate app launched) versus being treated as a USB mounted disk ?
Does the OS look for a "DCIM" (or whatever) folder on a newly mounted
disk to decide to treat it as a camera ? Does the OS synthetize a
virtual camera with which the selected app interacts ? (aka: does the
app think it is importing from a camera, or does it see an actual disk ? )
There are two separate mechanisms, depending on the camera.

If you plug in a camera via USB, it can either appear to the computer as
a picture capture device (usual case for Canon) or as a storage device
(most others I've seen).

If you plug in a memory card via a reader it is always treated as a
storage device.

The picture capture method doesn't appear as a mounted storage device in
Finder. You need to use Image Capture or other software which supports
the protocol (including iPhoto, Photos, Aperture, GrapicConverter,
Lightroom and others) to import photos. No eject is required. With the
right software it is also possibly to control the camera from the
computer and take photos.

The storage device method is mounted like any other removable media, so
appears in the appropriate places in Finder, needs to be ejected before
removal, etc.

In the case of a storage device, the "import photos" mechanism appears
to be triggered by the presence of a DCIM folder in the root directory
of the device (possibly also requiring at least one subfolder containing
at least one photo: precise details left as an exercise for the reader).

This causes the configured application to launch automatically (now
defaulting to Photos), but the device

I haven't looked into the mechanism the system uses to identify distinct
devices/cameras/cards and allow them to have different auto-launch
behaviour, but I expect it involves a plist on the computer and
something unique about each device such as a serial number or a hidden
file stored on the device.
Post by JF Mezei
I don't recall seeing the OS treating an SC card as camera, but it has
been a while since I inserted an SD card with photos on them.
I have seen the configured photo import application auto launch when an
SD card with a DCIM folder was inserted.
--
David Empson
***@actrix.gen.nz
JF Mezei
2015-10-07 03:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Empson
This causes the configured application to launch automatically (now
defaulting to Photos), but the device
So, there is some config file used by the auto mount/file system which
determines that an app be launched based on presence of a file in the
newly mounted drive ?

Could have some interesting uses for automatically performing tasks
whenever a new volume is mounted. (or automatically launch something
based on content of "autorun.inf" on the volume :-)
David Empson
2015-10-07 10:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JF Mezei
Post by David Empson
This causes the configured application to launch automatically (now
defaulting to Photos), but the device
So, there is some config file used by the auto mount/file system which
determines that an app be launched based on presence of a file in the
newly mounted drive ?
I haven't spotted what launches it, but I found the file which contains
the rules to identify storage devices that are to be treated as image
capture sources (and presumably auto-launch the configured import app,
though I haven't tried it to confirm).

On Yosemite (can't avoid the line break, sorry):

/System/Library/Image Capture/Devices/MassStorageCamera.app/
Contents/Resources/DeviceMatchingInfo.plist

It is looking for specific top-level folder names, with different lists
depending on the file system (e.g. on HFS is only looking for DCIM; ISO
9660 CDs can also have a PICTURES folder; on FAT or exFAT it looks for
ten different folder names including DCIM, MISC, MUSIC, Images and
Video).
Post by JF Mezei
Could have some interesting uses for automatically performing tasks
whenever a new volume is mounted. (or automatically launch something
based on content of "autorun.inf" on the volume :-)
The tasks that can be executed automatically are a predetermined set of
applications, triggered by the presence of particular files/folders, so
not particulary interesting.
--
David Empson
***@actrix.gen.nz
JF Mezei
2015-10-07 16:50:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Empson
/System/Library/Image Capture/Devices/MassStorageCamera.app/
Contents/Resources/DeviceMatchingInfo.plist
The tasks that can be executed automatically are a predetermined set of
applications, triggered by the presence of particular files/folders, so
not particulary interesting.
But hack the MassStorageCamera.app and you can get it to do stuff
whenever it is launched (aka whenever something is mounted).

This is certaintly one that needs to be made "secure".
Electric Comet
2015-10-10 18:17:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 04 Oct 2015 20:40:38 -0400
Post by Davoud
For my purposes, best to delete Photos.app altogether unless it will
mess up the system (El Capitan) somehow.
why not mv it temporarily and see if it breaks anything

that would be sensible where deleting it would be beligerent
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