How do you pronounce Stephan King?

Post by fairycat
It's kind of confusing. By looking at "Stephan", it seems like, for me
of course, to be pronounced as "Stefan". But official pronunciation of
"Stephan King" in my country is "Steven King". Is this right? Can
"Stephan" be pronounced either "Steven" or "Steve"?

The name is "Stephen" not "Stephan". It is the equivalent to the name
"Stephan" in other languages, but the standard English form has the
second vowel as an 'e'. And, yes, the "ph" is pronounced as if it were
a 'v', whereas "ph" normally is pronounced as if it is an 'f'. This
pronunciation has led to the spelling "Steven" being commonly used.
If you know someone is called "Stephen" or "Steven" you should check
carefully the spelling of their name, it's considered correct to use the
name as they use it, and not to use another variation. The director
Steven Spielberg spells it that way, looks like his parents had a thing
about using phonetically close spelling variations of names, since his
middle name is "Allen" (a variation of the standard "Alan"). My first
name is "Matthew", that's the conventional spelling, even though nowhere
else in English is the combination "tth" pronounced as "th". Some people
who want to give that name spell it as "Mathew", but that;s just not the
correct way to spell it. if you spell it that way when you mean me, it'll
annoy me. But if someone has been given the name spelt that way by their
parenmts, well, that's what you should use.

English spelling isn't always logical.

Matthew Huntbach

BTW my surname is pronounced exactly as it is spelt using English
pronunciation conventions. Most people seem to assume it isn't.

T.H. Entity

2006-10-13 09:54:28 UTC

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:36:06 +0100, Matthew Huntbach

Post by Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach
BTW my surname is pronounced exactly as it is spelt using English
pronunciation conventions. Most people seem to assume it isn't.

You mean English has pronunciation conventions? J.S. "Bach" is usually
either [ba:k] or [baX]; "mach" speeds are usually either [ma:k] or
[m&k]; "sassenach" usually ends with either [n&k] or [n&X].

So which is it: ['hVntb&k] or ['hVntbaX]?

I can think of no other English words that end in"-ach" except
"attach" and "detach", which surely have to be discarded because the
stress is in the wrong place. Since unstressed final "-ach" seems only
to be found in borrowed words and names, where it is seldom if ever
pronounced [&tS], what "English pronunciation convention" did you have
in mind?

--
THE

"If you or I use a word inappropriately, that's an error. If a newspaper
uses a word inappropriately, that's a citation source for the dictionaries."
-- Peter Moylan

Matthew Huntbach

2006-10-13 10:43:22 UTC

Post by T.H. Entity
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:36:06 +0100, Matthew Huntbach

Post by Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach
BTW my surname is pronounced exactly as it is spelt using English
pronunciation conventions. Most people seem to assume it isn't.

You mean English has pronunciation conventions? J.S. "Bach" is usually
either [ba:k] or [baX]; "mach" speeds are usually either [ma:k] or
[m&k]; "sassenach" usually ends with either [n&k] or [n&X].

All these examples are names or words from other languages used in English.

Post by T.H. Entity
So which is it: ['hVntb&k] or ['hVntbaX]?
I can think of no other English words that end in"-ach" except
"attach" and "detach", which surely have to be discarded because the
stress is in the wrong place.

They use the standard English pronunciation of "ch". As does my surname.

Post by T.H. Entity
Since unstressed final "-ach" seems only
to be found in borrowed words and names, where it is seldom if ever
pronounced [&tS], what "English pronunciation convention" did you have
in mind?

The one which is used in "attach", "detach", "sandwich", "rich" etc,
as well as the placename "Sandbach".

Matthew Huntbach

R J Valentine

2006-10-13 11:36:31 UTC

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 11:43:22 +0100 Matthew Huntbach <***@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:

} On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, T.H. Entity wrote:
}> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:36:06 +0100, Matthew Huntbach
}> <***@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrought:
}
}>> Matthew Huntbach
}>>
}>> BTW my surname is pronounced exactly as it is spelt using English
}>> pronunciation conventions. Most people seem to assume it isn't.
}>
}> You mean English has pronunciation conventions? J.S. "Bach" is usually
}> either [ba:k] or [baX]; "mach" speeds are usually either [ma:k] or
}> [m&k]; "sassenach" usually ends with either [n&k] or [n&X].
}
} All these examples are names or words from other languages used in English.
}
}> So which is it: ['hVntb&k] or ['hVntbaX]?
}>
}> I can think of no other English words that end in"-ach" except
}> "attach" and "detach", which surely have to be discarded because the
}> stress is in the wrong place.
}
} They use the standard English pronunciation of "ch". As does my surname.
}
}> Since unstressed final "-ach" seems only
}> to be found in borrowed words and names, where it is seldom if ever
}> pronounced [&tS], what "English pronunciation convention" did you have
}> in mind?
}
} The one which is used in "attach", "detach", "sandwich", "rich" etc,
} as well as the placename "Sandbach".

I think I'm getting a stomach ache.

--
rjv

T.H. Entity

2006-10-13 12:23:58 UTC

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 11:43:22 +0100 Matthew Huntbach

Post by R J Valentine
}> I can think of no other English words that end in"-ach" except
}> "attach" and "detach", which surely have to be discarded because the
}> stress is in the wrong place.
}
} They use the standard English pronunciation of "ch". As does my surname.

Yabbut "ch" has no standard pronounciation, unless you use the same
one for "niche", "chasm" and "Christopher Harlech".

--
THE

"If you or I use a word inappropriately, that's an error. If a newspaper
uses a word inappropriately, that's a citation source for the dictionaries."
-- Peter Moylan

Oleg Lego

2006-10-13 18:27:09 UTC

Post by R J Valentine
}> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:36:06 +0100, Matthew Huntbach
}
}>> Matthew Huntbach
}>>
}>> BTW my surname is pronounced exactly as it is spelt using English
}>> pronunciation conventions. Most people seem to assume it isn't.
}>
}> You mean English has pronunciation conventions? J.S. "Bach" is usually
}> either [ba:k] or [baX]; "mach" speeds are usually either [ma:k] or
}> [m&k]; "sassenach" usually ends with either [n&k] or [n&X].
}
} All these examples are names or words from other languages used in English.
}
}> So which is it: ['hVntb&k] or ['hVntbaX]?
}>
}> I can think of no other English words that end in"-ach" except
}> "attach" and "detach", which surely have to be discarded because the
}> stress is in the wrong place.
}
} They use the standard English pronunciation of "ch". As does my surname.
}
}> Since unstressed final "-ach" seems only
}> to be found in borrowed words and names, where it is seldom if ever
}> pronounced [&tS], what "English pronunciation convention" did you have
}> in mind?
}
} The one which is used in "attach", "detach", "sandwich", "rich" etc,
} as well as the placename "Sandbach".
I think I'm getting a stomach ache.

Oh dear, you haven't been eating any parts of a sumach have you?

Ted Schuerzinger

2006-10-13 14:54:35 UTC

Post by T.H. Entity
I can think of no other English words that end in"-ach" except
"attach" and "detach",

Whenever my dad has to bach it he ends up eating sandwiches for dinner.

There are a lot of words ending in -each or -oach, of course, but those
aren't relevant for this thread.

--
Ted <fedya at bestweb dot net>
TV Announcer: It's 11:00. Do you know where your children are?
Homer: I told you last night, *no*!
<http://www.snpp.com/episodes/4F06.html>

Tony Cooper

2006-10-13 15:41:02 UTC

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:54:35 -0000, Ted Schuerzinger

Post by T.H. Entity
I can think of no other English words that end in"-ach" except
"attach" and "detach",

Whenever my dad has to bach it he ends up eating sandwiches for dinner.

I would write "batch it" if I meant "doing it as a bachelor would".

--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Ted Schuerzinger

2006-10-14 01:37:26 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Ted Schuerzinger
Whenever my dad has to bach it he ends up eating sandwiches for dinner.

I would write "batch it" if I meant "doing it as a bachelor would".

That's not what the dictionaries say....

--
Ted <fedya at bestweb dot net>
TV Announcer: It's 11:00. Do you know where your children are?
Homer: I told you last night, *no*!
<http://www.snpp.com/episodes/4F06.html>

Tony Cooper

2006-10-14 01:42:29 UTC

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 01:37:26 -0000, Ted Schuerzinger

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Ted Schuerzinger
Whenever my dad has to bach it he ends up eating sandwiches for dinner.

I would write "batch it" if I meant "doing it as a bachelor would".

That's not what the dictionaries say....

Try Googling "batching it" and "baching it". I am not alone.

--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Skitt

2006-10-14 01:51:31 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Ted Schuerzinger
Whenever my dad has to bach it he ends up eating sandwiches for dinner.

I would write "batch it" if I meant "doing it as a bachelor would".

That's not what the dictionaries say....

M-W Online does -- as a variant.

--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

Salvatore Volatile

2006-10-13 09:12:04 UTC

Post by Matthew Huntbach
If you know someone is called "Stephen" or "Steven" you should check
carefully the spelling of their name, it's considered correct to use the
name as they use it, and not to use another variation. The director
Steven Spielberg spells it that way, looks like his parents had a thing
about using phonetically close spelling variations of names, since his
middle name is "Allen" (a variation of the standard "Alan").

In AmE, "Steven" is, I'd say, the standard spelling,
and "Stephen" is a somewhat less common (I'm sure Erk can verify that)
and, I'd say, old-fashioned and British-looking variant.

As for "Allen", I suppose I do think of "Alan" as the more common spelling
of the first name (= RevanchistOmrudicBrE "Christian name") but I also
think of it as a more common British name anyway. "Allen" is a
commonly-enough-seen spelling in AmE, though perhaps it's more associated
with the surnames of certain celebrities.

Post by Matthew Huntbach
My first
name is "Matthew", that's the conventional spelling,

There I agree.

Post by Matthew Huntbach
BTW my surname is pronounced exactly as it is spelt using English
pronunciation conventions. Most people seem to assume it isn't.

I question that. In AmE, most speakers will reasonably assume that
"Huntbach" is pronounced "Huntbock" or "Huntback" or something along those
lines, because there are a lot of surnames ending in -bach that are
conventionally given such pronunciations. For the pronunciation you use,
one would expect the spelling "Huntbatch".

--
Salvatore Volatile

Matthew Huntbach

2006-10-13 11:20:54 UTC

Post by Salvatore Volatile

Post by Matthew Huntbach
BTW my surname is pronounced exactly as it is spelt using English
pronunciation conventions. Most people seem to assume it isn't.

Yes, in the US there are many people of German ancestry who have surnames
which originated in Germany. So it would be reasonable to assume a surname
might be of German origin and is pronounced using the standard Anglification
of the German.

Post by Salvatore Volatile
For the pronunciation you use, one would expect the spelling "Huntbatch".

Yes, a lot of people assume my surname is really a German one, and the way
it's pronounced is just some silly affectation. It's an English surname,
the first use of it is recorded in the 14th century. It's spelt that way
because it's always been spelt that way. It's not "the pronunciation you use"
as if it isn't really pronounced that way but I have chosen to do so.

Matthew Huntbach

T.H. Entity

2006-10-13 12:13:20 UTC

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:20:54 +0100, Matthew Huntbach

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Salvatore Volatile

Post by Matthew Huntbach
BTW my surname is pronounced exactly as it is spelt using English
pronunciation conventions. Most people seem to assume it isn't.

Post by Salvatore Volatile
For the pronunciation you use, one would expect the spelling "Huntbatch".

Spellings and pronunciations do change, though -- often to correct or
re-mess up a longstanding error. One of the hizes at my school was
"Assheton". Although this was obviously just a quainte olde spellynge
of the common Lancashire surname "Ashton", and despite the best
efforts of our Oxford-educated headmaster (who gave up his battle
before his reaching his first half-term and just went with the flow
after that), it was always carefully pronounced [,&***@t@n] by all, and
I imagine it still is.

Are you sure your name has never been spelled "Huntbatch" at any time
by any of your forebears? There are quite a few out there, I see --
Craig in Peterborough, Betty and Joyce in Wolverhampton, Sharkie &
Huntbatch Ltd in Congleton.... Wouldn't your life be a bit easier if
you added a "t" so that you wouldn't have to spell your surname every
time you say it or correct almost everyone who reads it?

ObDeedPollJoke: "Arnold Shithead has announced that the process to
change his name by deed poll is now complete. Henceforth he will be
known as Elvis Shithead."

--
THE

"If you or I use a word inappropriately, that's an error. If a newspaper
uses a word inappropriately, that's a citation source for the dictionaries."
-- Peter Moylan

Matthew Huntbach

2006-10-13 15:47:25 UTC

Post by T.H. Entity
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:20:54 +0100, Matthew Huntbach

Post by Matthew Huntbach
Yes, a lot of people assume my surname is really a German one, and the way
it's pronounced is just some silly affectation. It's an English surname,
the first use of it is recorded in the 14th century. It's spelt that way
because it's always been spelt that way. It's not "the pronunciation you use"
as if it isn't really pronounced that way but I have chosen to do so.

Are you sure your name has never been spelled "Huntbatch" at any time
by any of your forebears?

Yes, if you look at any of the old records of the family, which was quite
a prominent one in Staffordshire, apart from the occasional "Huntebach",
it's always "Huntbach" and never "Huntbatch". See, for example:

http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/articles/bushbury/families/whhs_huntbach.htm

Post by T.H. Entity
There are quite a few out there, I see --
Craig in Peterborough, Betty and Joyce in Wolverhampton, Sharkie &
Huntbatch Ltd in Congleton.... Wouldn't your life be a bit easier if
you added a "t" so that you wouldn't have to spell your surname every
time you say it or correct almost everyone who reads it?

Well, yes, of course, but it's yet another chip on my shoulder to relish.
Most of us spell it the old way, those that have added the extra 't' must
have done so fairly recently.

Matthew Huntbach

Mark Brader

2006-10-14 02:17:25 UTC

... looks like his parents had a thing
about using phonetically close spelling variations of names, since his
middle name is "Allen" (a variation of the standard "Alan").

Eh what? Seems to me that Alan, Allan, and Allen are all "standard".
(Alen and Alun, not.) And Google counts support this belief, although
of course they may be biased by sufficiently famous individuals with
one of the names searched on.

"alan smith" 934,000
"alan johnson" 918,000
"alan jones" 771,000
"alan williams" 563,000
"alan taylor" 509,000
"alan brown" 453,000
"alan wilson" 263,000 total 4,411,000

"allen smith" 700,000
"allen johnson" 465,000
"allen jones" 340,000
"allen williams" 303,000
"allen brown" 240,000
"allen taylor" 232,000
"allen wilson" 75,900 total 2,355,900

"allan jones" 202,000
"allan wilson" 184,000
"allan smith" 135,000
"allan brown" 95,000
"allan taylor" 90,800
"allan johnson" 82,600
"allan williams" 70,500 total 859,900

"alun jones" 127,000
"alun williams" 47,000
"alun brown" 678
"alun smith" 356
"alun taylor" 156
"alun johnson" 81
"alun wilson" 39 total 175,310

"alen smith" 1,160
"alen wilson" 862
"alen williams" 582
"alen jones" 540
"alen johnson" 431
"alen brown" 235
"alen taylor" 39 total 3,849

The 7 surnames I used for the queries are those that are among the
10 most frequent on both an American list of most common surnames and
a British one (or rather, specificially English, Welsh, and Manx):

http://names.mongabay.com/most_common_surnames.htm
http://freespace.virgin.net/philip.dance1/offstats/names1-500.htm

--
Mark Brader | "Simple things should be simple." -- Alan Kay, on UIs
***@vex.net | "Too many ... try to make complex things simple ...
Toronto | and succeed ... only in making simple things complex."
| -- Jeff Prothero
My text in this article is in the public domain.

Alan Jones

2006-10-14 08:01:55 UTC

Post by Mark Brader

... looks like his parents had a thing
about using phonetically close spelling variations of names, since
his middle name is "Allen" (a variation of the standard "Alan").

In the UK, Alan and Alun (the Welsh spelling) are widely used forenames and
could be regarded as standard. Allen is usually a surname. Allan is unusual
in England and Wales as either surname or forename., though there are lots
of McAllans; so perhaps Allan as a forename is chiefly Scottish. These are
not statistical observations - but as an interested party I do notice
non-Alan versions. My sister's name is Glenys, which appears in several
other spellings by those who know her but have never seen (or at least not
observed) her name (she takes some offence at "Gladys").

Alan Jones

Matthew Huntbach

2006-10-16 12:47:55 UTC

Post by Mark Brader

... looks like his parents had a thing
about using phonetically close spelling variations of names, since his
middle name is "Allen" (a variation of the standard "Alan").

Your examples show that "Alan" is still the most common, and I think you
will find that historically that is the form the name took. "Allen" is a
modern variant, perhaps it has taken over in the USA rather as we have been
told "Steven" has taken over from the historical "Stephen".

Matthew Huntbach

Steve Hayes

2006-10-16 16:28:00 UTC

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Mark Brader

... looks like his parents had a thing
about using phonetically close spelling variations of names, since his
middle name is "Allen" (a variation of the standard "Alan").

Several of my ancestors had "Allen" as a middle name, but it was derived from
a surname, as I think someone else has already pointed out.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Don Phillipson

2006-10-13 12:08:29 UTC

Post by fairycat
But official pronunciation of
"Stephan King" in my country is "Steven King". Is this right? Can
"Stephan" be pronounced either "Steven" or "Steve"?

The official doctrine in English-language countries is
that proper names are immune from general rules
governing either spelling or pronunciation. But the US
author's name appears to be Stephen King, spelled
and spoken in the commonest way.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Steve MacGregor

2006-10-13 14:50:39 UTC

You had me going for a minute. I've *heard* his name pronounced, and
it's always with a V sound, but I could have sworn that it was
"Stephen" (same as mine), rather than "Stephan", which looks kind of
strange. As pointed out, it's with an -EN.

Post by fairycat
Can "Stephan" be pronounced either "Steven" or "Steve"?

Neither. I've only heard it pronounded "STEF-'n".

--
Stefano

Steve Hayes

2006-10-13 16:25:37 UTC

Perhaps you are thinking of Stephen King.

In English, Stephen and Steven are pronounced identically, and either may be
abbreviated as Steve.

But Stephan is pronounced "Steffun"

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

R H Draney

2006-10-13 17:28:43 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes
In English, Stephen and Steven are pronounced identically, and either may be
abbreviated as Steve.

I was past puberty before I finally caught on that "Geoffrey" and "Jeffrey" were
pronounced the same....r

--
"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.

Steve Hayes

2006-10-13 18:09:50 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes
In English, Stephen and Steven are pronounced identically, and either may be
abbreviated as Steve.

I was past puberty before I finally caught on that "Geoffrey" and "Jeffrey" were
pronounced the same....r

And Jeffery?

]

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Robert Lieblich

2006-10-13 18:53:48 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes
In English, Stephen and Steven are pronounced identically, and either may be
abbreviated as Steve.

I was past puberty before I finally caught on that "Geoffrey" and "Jeffrey" were
pronounced the same....r

And Jeffery?

I know a gent whose first name is spelled "Jeffre." It's pronounced
just as if a "y" were attached to the end.

Consider also the way Geoffrey Holder pronounces his first name: just
like the ballet company -- Joffrey.

--
Bob Lieblich
Who once had a dog named Jeff

Mike Lyle

2006-10-16 22:39:25 UTC

Robert Lieblich wrote:
[...]

Post by Robert Lieblich
Consider also the way Geoffrey Holder pronounces his first name: just
like the ballet company -- Joffrey.
Bob Lieblich
Who once had a dog named Jeff

A mutt named Jeff could have been in geopardy. And in the UK, doble
jopardy is now allowed. (I suppose that means you can have two for a
farthing on Guernsey.) This stuff could send a man doolally under the
cedars.

--
Mike.

Robert Lieblich

2006-10-16 23:04:50 UTC

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by Robert Lieblich
Consider also the way Geoffrey Holder pronounces his first name: just
like the ballet company -- Joffrey.
Bob Lieblich
Who once had a dog named Jeff

A mutt named Jeff could have been in geopardy.

I never thought of that. It was perhaps mere coincidence that we
lived less than half a mile from Jefferson High School, which I
attended.

Post by Mike Lyle
And in the UK, doble

I thought for a minute that was "Dobie." I had a classmate at
Jefferson High whose surname was Gillis

Post by Mike Lyle
jopardy is now allowed.

Not in the US (except when it is, of course).

Post by Mike Lyle
(I suppose that means you can have two for a
farthing on Guernsey.) This stuff could send a man doolally under the
cedars.

As good a place as any.

Actually, my father was well aware of the mutt-Jeff connection, but I
think it was the coincidence of the name of the local high school that
led to the dog's name.

--
Bob Lieblich
Arf

Graeme Thomas

2006-10-13 22:32:09 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes
In English, Stephen and Steven are pronounced identically, and either may be
abbreviated as Steve.

My brother was named Stephen, but called, by all save our mother, Steve.
A few months ago I read of another Stephen who abbreviated his name to
"Stephe". When I mentioned it to my brother his reaction was "Damn! I
wish I'd thought of that." After some thought, though, he realized that
changing his name to this more logical spelling would be far to much
bother, so he remains "Steve".

These names are pronounced /'sti:***@n/ and /sti:v/, regardless of the
spelling.

The OP mentioned "Stephan". That's pronounced /'stEf&n/.

--
Graeme Thomas

Garrett Wollman

2006-10-13 23:38:00 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes
In English, Stephen and Steven are pronounced identically, and either may be
abbreviated as Steve.

My brother was named Stephen, but called, by all save our mother, Steve.

I remember hearing an amusing story on "This American Life" a few
months back (which I know to have been a rerun from a few years ago).
I don't remember the name of the fellow who was speaking, but a check
of the show archives says it was David Rakoff (a gay Canadian Jew
living in New York) talking about going to New Hampshire. Describing
himself in the setup to the story, he goes off on a tangent about the
stereotypical (but all too real) anti-gay protestors often found
outside churches along the route of the annual Gay Pride parade. He
admits a desire to find some protestors carrying the standard "Adam
and Eve, not Adam and Steve" signs, and tell them off: "Not Adam and
Steve! Of course not Adam and Steve.... It's Adam and *Steven*."

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
***@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Steve Hayes

2006-10-14 01:34:35 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes
In English, Stephen and Steven are pronounced identically, and either may be
abbreviated as Steve.

I would assume that "Stephe" was pronounced "Steffie".

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

LFS

2006-10-14 05:43:30 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes
In English, Stephen and Steven are pronounced identically, and either may be
abbreviated as Steve.

[..]

If I read "Stephe" I would immediately assume that this was short for
Stephanie. Although I have seen this most frequently shortened to
Steffie or Stephie, I did once encounter a student who preferred Stephee.

And I once met a (rather odd) Steven who pronounced his name to rhyme
with "heaven".

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Oleg Lego

2006-10-14 06:02:24 UTC

Post by LFS

Post by Steve Hayes
In English, Stephen and Steven are pronounced identically, and either may be
abbreviated as Steve.

[..]
If I read "Stephe" I would immediately assume that this was short for
Stephanie. Although I have seen this most frequently shortened to
Steffie or Stephie, I did once encounter a student who preferred Stephee.
And I once met a (rather odd) Steven who pronounced his name to rhyme
with "heaven".

I once took a pottery class having a student named Cheryl. If you
called her "share-ill", she would correct you, telling you it was
"chair-ill". The second time I called her "share-ill", she again
corrected me, saying "It's 'chair-il', with a 'chi'."

Being easy to get along with, I made it a point from that time on, to
address her as "Chair-ill with a ch."

Steve Hayes

2006-10-14 06:40:35 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
Being easy to get along with, I made it a point from that time on, to
address her as "Chair-ill with a ch."

My brother-in-law's sister is Margot, with a t, as in "Ma got".

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Claude Weil

2006-10-14 11:24:28 UTC

Since this thread turns into a discussion of first names, mine
(Claude) has the drawback that it can also be used for a person of the
fair sex. As a consequence, people who know me only by name sometimes
hesitate on whether they should call me Mr or Mrs. However, there are
feminine versions: Claudine (e.g. Colette's heroine), Claudette (e.g.
the actress Claudette Colbert) and Claudia (e.g. the actress Claudia
Cardinale and the model Claudia Schiffer).

Another ambiguous first name, i.e. either male or female, is
"Dominique".

CW

Oleg Lego

2006-10-15 05:59:48 UTC

Post by Claude Weil
Since this thread turns into a discussion of first names, mine
(Claude) has the drawback that it can also be used for a person of the
fair sex.

Of course, any name may be used for any person, of any sex, but I have
never heard of a female named Claude, and if asked, would probably say
that it's uncommon to the point of rarity.

Post by Claude Weil
Another ambiguous first name, i.e. either male or female, is
"Dominique".

I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,
when a local football team imported a player named Dominique Dorsey. I
thought it quite odd, since there are a number of male variants of the
name (Dominic, Dominick), though because the player is a black fellow
from the US, it didn't surprise me much. There are many such that have
names I've never heard before.

Ted Schuerzinger

2006-10-15 14:26:46 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,

Apparently you don't remember the Singing Nun.

--
Ted <fedya at bestweb dot net>
TV Announcer: It's 11:00. Do you know where your children are?
Homer: I told you last night, *no*!
<http://www.snpp.com/episodes/4F06.html>

Skitt

2006-10-15 17:41:07 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,

Apparently you don't remember the Singing Nun.

She was male? I did not know that.

--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

Ted Schuerzinger

2006-10-15 20:59:00 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,

Apparently you don't remember the Singing Nun.

She was male? I did not know that.

No, she sang about St. Dominique; I don't have the lyrics at hand.

--
Ted <fedya at bestweb dot net>
TV Announcer: It's 11:00. Do you know where your children are?
Homer: I told you last night, *no*!
<http://www.snpp.com/episodes/4F06.html>

Oleg Lego

2006-10-16 03:42:13 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,

Apparently you don't remember the Singing Nun.

I do remember the Singing Nun. I remember she sang a song called
"Dominique". From your response, I assume the song was about a male
named "Dominique". I can only take your word for it, as I had no idea
who or what the song was about. First, I don't speak French, not do I
understand spoken French. Second, I did not like the song, and paid no
attention to it at all.

Stephen Calder

2006-10-16 03:46:30 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,

Apparently you don't remember the Singing Nun.

Yes, the song was about a man.

"En tout chemin, en tout lieu
Il ne parle que du bon Dieu"

On every path, in every place
He speaks only of the good Lord

--
Stephen
Lennox Head, Australia

Oleg Lego

2006-10-16 04:34:21 UTC

Post by Stephen Calder

Post by Oleg Lego
I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,

Apparently you don't remember the Singing Nun.

Yes, the song was about a man.
"En tout chemin, en tout lieu
Il ne parle que du bon Dieu"
On every path, in every place
He speaks only of the good Lord

So this is the second instance of my having heard a male referred to
as "Dominique".

Steve Hayes

2006-10-16 04:04:27 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,

Apparently you don't remember the Singing Nun.

The "Dominique" she sang about was the founder of the Dominican Order, the
Order of Peachers (OP), which played such a prominent role in the Inquisition.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Skitt

2006-10-16 17:01:46 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,

Apparently you don't remember the Singing Nun.

The "Dominique" she sang about was the founder of the Dominican
Order, the Order of Peachers (OP), which played such a prominent role
in the Inquisition.

I didn't expect that.

--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

Oleg Lego

2006-10-16 20:29:19 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,

Apparently you don't remember the Singing Nun.

The "Dominique" she sang about was the founder of the Dominican
Order, the Order of Peachers (OP), which played such a prominent role
in the Inquisition.

I didn't expect that.

Nobody expects that!

Roland Hutchinson

2006-10-17 20:09:46 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,

Apparently you don't remember the Singing Nun.

The "Dominique" she sang about was the founder of the Dominican
Order, the Order of Peachers (OP), which played such a prominent role
in the Inquisition.

I didn't expect that.

Nobody expects the Belgian Inquisition!

(With good reason, I reckon.)

--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.

the Omrud

2006-10-16 08:27:14 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,

Apparently you don't remember the Singing Nun.

It's worth reporting that the Singing Nun was Belgian.

As children, we thought she was singing about knickers

- Domi knicker, knicker, knicker.

--
David
=====

R H Draney

2006-10-16 14:35:52 UTC

Post by the Omrud
It's worth reporting that the Singing Nun was Belgian.
As children, we thought she was singing about knickers
- Domi knicker, knicker, knicker.

One can only imagine the fun that would have ensued if you'd learnt back then
that she was also a lesbian....r

--
"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.

Roland Hutchinson

2006-10-16 16:29:52 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male name,

Apparently you don't remember the Singing Nun.

A lot of people undoubtedly thought that "Dominique" was the nun's name.

A singing Dominique of our own time, very well-known in early-music circles,
is Dominique Vise of Ensemble Clément Janequin.

He's an alto, a fact which doesn't necessarily help anyone who might be in
doubt as to his sex.

--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.

Skitt

2006-10-15 17:42:31 UTC

Post by Claude Weil
Since this thread turns into a discussion of first names, mine
(Claude) has the drawback that it can also be used for a person of
the fair sex.

Of course, any name may be used for any person, of any sex, but I have
never heard of a female named Claude, and if asked, would probably say
that it's uncommon to the point of rarity.

Post by Claude Weil
Another ambiguous first name, i.e. either male or female, is
"Dominique".

No basketball for you!

--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

Evan Kirshenbaum

2006-10-16 21:39:58 UTC

Post by Claude Weil
Another ambiguous first name, i.e. either male or female, is
"Dominique".

I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male
name, when a local football team imported a player named Dominique
Dorsey. I thought it quite odd, since there are a number of male
variants of the name (Dominic, Dominick), though because the player
is a black fellow from the US, it didn't surprise me much. There
are many such that have names I've never heard before.

No basketball for you!

According to the Wikipedia article on him, his full name is Jacques
Dominique Wilkins. He was born in Paris.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The reason that we don't have
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |"bear-proof" garbage cans in the
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |park is that there is a significant
|overlap in intelligence between the
***@hpl.hp.com |smartest bears and the dumbest
(650)857-7572 |humans.
| Yosemite Park Ranger
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Oleg Lego

2006-10-17 02:40:21 UTC

Post by Claude Weil
Another ambiguous first name, i.e. either male or female, is
"Dominique".

I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male
name, when a local football team imported a player named Dominique
Dorsey. I thought it quite odd, since there are a number of male
variants of the name (Dominic, Dominick), though because the player
is a black fellow from the US, it didn't surprise me much. There
are many such that have names I've never heard before.

No basketball for you!

According to the Wikipedia article on him, his full name is Jacques
Dominique Wilkins. He was born in Paris.

Dominique Dorsey's full name is Jaques Dominique Wilkins?

Evan Kirshenbaum

2006-10-17 05:24:10 UTC

Post by Claude Weil
Another ambiguous first name, i.e. either male or female, is
"Dominique".

I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male
name, when a local football team imported a player named
Dominique Dorsey. I thought it quite odd, since there are a
number of male variants of the name (Dominic, Dominick), though
because the player is a black fellow from the US, it didn't
surprise me much. There are many such that have names I've never
heard before.

No basketball for you!

According to the Wikipedia article on him, his full name is Jacques
Dominique Wilkins. He was born in Paris.

Dominique Dorsey's full name is Jaques Dominique Wilkins?

Dominique Dorsey plays basketball? (I'll leave it to someone else to
ask whether the game he plays is actually football.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Of course, over the first 10^-10
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |seconds and 10^-30 cubic
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |centimeters it averages out to
|zero, but when you look in
***@hpl.hp.com |detail....
(650)857-7572 | Philip Morrison

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Oleg Lego

2006-10-17 06:06:22 UTC

Post by Claude Weil
Another ambiguous first name, i.e. either male or female, is
"Dominique".

I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male
name, when a local football team imported a player named
Dominique Dorsey. I thought it quite odd, since there are a
number of male variants of the name (Dominic, Dominick), though
because the player is a black fellow from the US, it didn't
surprise me much. There are many such that have names I've never
heard before.

No basketball for you!

According to the Wikipedia article on him, his full name is Jacques
Dominique Wilkins. He was born in Paris.

Dominique Dorsey's full name is Jaques Dominique Wilkins?

Dominique Dorsey plays basketball?

No idea. He might, in the off-season. I mentioned football as his
sport. You did mention basketball, but without any indication as to
why. I gather from your current response that you were implying that
someone named "Dominique", who is a male, plays basketball.

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
(I'll leave it to someone else to ask whether the game he plays is actually football.)

Well it is actually football, though NFL snobs will contend that it
isn't. We, of course, don't consider the aficionados of upstart
leagues that use "Canadian Football Made Easy" rules, to be
authorities on the subject of what constitutes football.

Evan Kirshenbaum

2006-10-17 15:05:15 UTC

Post by Claude Weil
Another ambiguous first name, i.e. either male or female, is
"Dominique".

I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male
name, when a local football team imported a player named
Dominique Dorsey. I thought it quite odd, since there are a
number of male variants of the name (Dominic, Dominick), though
because the player is a black fellow from the US, it didn't
surprise me much. There are many such that have names I've never
heard before.

No basketball for you!

According to the Wikipedia article on him, his full name is Jacques
Dominique Wilkins. He was born in Paris.

Dominique Dorsey's full name is Jaques Dominique Wilkins?

Dominique Dorsey plays basketball?

Skitt mentioned basketball, almost certainly alluding to Dominique
Wilkins, whose Hall-of-Fame professional career began the year before
Dominique Dorsey was born and, I suspect, may well have been the
inspiration for Dorsey's name.

The secondary reason that I posted was your "because the player is a
black fellow from the US, it didn't surprise me much", since Wilkins,
the main male "Dominique" that most sports fans in the US would know,
*isn't* from the US, but rather France.

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
(I'll leave it to someone else to ask whether the game he plays is actually football.)

The "upstart league" isn't the one that still thought of itself as
playing rugby until the 1950s?

All kidding aside, I do know that the two codes are about as old, with
ideas early on flowing both ways, but I had thought that most of the
things that made football football (e.g., forward pass, blocking,
protective equipment) were American innovations rather than Canadian
ones.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"The Dynamics of Interbeing and
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Monological Imperatives in 'Dick
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and Jane' : A Study in Psychic
|Transrelational Modes."
***@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Oleg Lego

2006-10-17 16:31:38 UTC

Post by Claude Weil
Another ambiguous first name, i.e. either male or female, is
"Dominique".

I have only recently heard of "Dominique" being used as a male
name, when a local football team imported a player named
Dominique Dorsey. I thought it quite odd, since there are a
number of male variants of the name (Dominic, Dominick), though
because the player is a black fellow from the US, it didn't
surprise me much. There are many such that have names I've never
heard before.

No basketball for you!

According to the Wikipedia article on him, his full name is Jacques
Dominique Wilkins. He was born in Paris.

Dominique Dorsey's full name is Jaques Dominique Wilkins?

Dominique Dorsey plays basketball?

Ahh. Well, I don't do basketball, ever, and have never heard of
Dominique Wilkins.

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
The secondary reason that I posted was your "because the player is a
black fellow from the US, it didn't surprise me much", since Wilkins,
the main male "Dominique" that most sports fans in the US would know,
*isn't* from the US, but rather France.

Ahh again! Well, the reason I brought that up was that black folks
from the US often have given names that are uncommon among white
folks. A quick look around the CFL rosters will yield a lot of
examples. Keyvan, Jeremain, Rontarius, Ken-yon, etc. I figured
Dominique was just another example.

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
(I'll leave it to someone else to ask whether the game he plays is
actually football.)

The "upstart league" isn't the one that still thought of itself as
playing rugby until the 1950s?

Perhaps. I'd have to look it up. I started attending games in 1954.

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
All kidding aside, I do know that the two codes are about as old, with
ideas early on flowing both ways, but I had thought that most of the
things that made football football (e.g., forward pass, blocking,
protective equipment) were American innovations rather than Canadian
ones.

Again, that could well be.

I do know that I very much prefer Canadian Football, to the extent
that I never watch NFL games any more.

Nick Spalding

2006-10-15 19:20:44 UTC

Post by Claude Weil
Since this thread turns into a discussion of first names, mine
(Claude) has the drawback that it can also be used for a person of the
fair sex.

Of course, any name may be used for any person, of any sex, but I have
never heard of a female named Claude, and if asked, would probably say
that it's uncommon to the point of rarity.

Not uncommon in France. I would have thought that what is uncommon is
Claude with the terminal e as male.

--
Nick Spalding

Donna Richoux

2006-10-15 19:52:01 UTC

Post by Nick Spalding

Post by Claude Weil
Since this thread turns into a discussion of first names, mine
(Claude) has the drawback that it can also be used for a person of the
fair sex.

Of course, any name may be used for any person, of any sex, but I have
never heard of a female named Claude, and if asked, would probably say
that it's uncommon to the point of rarity.

Not uncommon in France. I would have thought that what is uncommon is
Claude with the terminal e as male.

Without an E is rare, in the US. The list of male names in the 1990 US
Census, arranged by frequency, has:

CLAUDE 230 (230th place)

CLAUDIO 925

CLAUD 1090

Checking the female list, I see Claudia, Claudette, Claudine, and
Claudie before Claude which is way down at 3734th place (after Denae and
Darcel).

Our Claude can rest easy. There are more women in that census with the
names of John, James, David, Mark, or Steven, than of Claude.

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

Oleg Lego

2006-10-16 03:44:24 UTC

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Nick Spalding

Post by Claude Weil
Since this thread turns into a discussion of first names, mine
(Claude) has the drawback that it can also be used for a person of the
fair sex.

Of course, any name may be used for any person, of any sex, but I have
never heard of a female named Claude, and if asked, would probably say
that it's uncommon to the point of rarity.

Not uncommon in France. I would have thought that what is uncommon is
Claude with the terminal e as male.

Without an E is rare, in the US. The list of male names in the 1990 US
CLAUDE 230 (230th place)
CLAUDIO 925
CLAUD 1090
Checking the female list, I see Claudia, Claudette, Claudine, and
Claudie before Claude which is way down at 3734th place (after Denae and
Darcel).
Our Claude can rest easy. There are more women in that census with the
names of John, James, David, Mark, or Steven, than of Claude.

I have known a male named LaVerne, and another named Faye, both of
which were the sole instances of such.

Wayne Brown

2006-10-17 19:14:23 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego
I have known a male named LaVerne, and another named Faye,
both of
which were the sole instances of such.

Are you sure he spelled his name "Faye"? There's a very rare
nickname in Appalachia for men that's spelled "Fay." It comes
from the first name "Fayburn."

Regards, ----- WB.

Default User

2006-10-17 20:29:09 UTC

I have known a male named LaVerne, and another named Faye, both of
which were the sole instances of such.

Are you sure he spelled his name "Faye"? There's a very rare nickname
in Appalachia for men that's spelled "Fay." It comes from the first
name "Fayburn."

Former MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent had the first name Francis. I don't
know that I've encountered any other instances of that.

Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)

Oleg Lego

2006-10-17 21:20:38 UTC

Post by Default User

I have known a male named LaVerne, and another named Faye, both of
which were the sole instances of such.

Are you sure he spelled his name "Faye"? There's a very rare nickname
in Appalachia for men that's spelled "Fay." It comes from the first
name "Fayburn."

Former MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent had the first name Francis. I don't
know that I've encountered any other instances of that.

I know several fellows named Francis, and have heard of more. It's not
at all uncommon.

Onelook has this to say about it:

A male given name (common: 1 in 625 males;
popularity rank in the U.S.: #127)

A female given name (common: 1 in 2564 females;
popularity rank in the U.S.: #393)

On the other hand, Frances is not so common among males...

A female given name (very common: 1 in 270 females;
popularity rank in the U.S.: #47)

A male given name (rare: 1 in 20000 males;
popularity rank in the U.S.: #962)

Default User

2006-10-17 21:29:49 UTC

Post by Default User
Former MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent had the first name Francis. I
don't know that I've encountered any other instances of that.

I know several fellows named Francis, and have heard of more. It's not
at all uncommon.

You are selectively responding. The statement as whole was a person
with the nickname of "Fay" with the given name of "Francis".

I don't believe my wording was in any way unclear.

Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)

Oleg Lego

2006-10-17 21:44:15 UTC

Post by Default User

Post by Default User
Former MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent had the first name Francis. I
don't know that I've encountered any other instances of that.

I know several fellows named Francis, and have heard of more. It's not
at all uncommon.

You are selectively responding. The statement as whole was a person
with the nickname of "Fay" with the given name of "Francis".
I don't believe my wording was in any way unclear.

Sorry, it was not intentional. Just goes to show you that not all
people think alike.

It never occurred to me until just now that you might have meant that
"Fay" was a nickname for Francis.I had assumed, probably incorrectly,
that "Fay" was a middle name, or a nickname unrelated to "Francis".
It's the same reaction I had when first encountering "Peg" for
"Margaret", or "Hank" for Henry", or even "Beth" or "Betty" for
"Elizabeth".

I took your "that" to have an antecedent of "had the first name
Francis", rather than the implied (to you) "was called Fay because his
first name was Francis."

Default User

2006-10-17 21:57:18 UTC

Post by Default User
I don't believe my wording was in any way unclear.

Sorry, it was not intentional. Just goes to show you that not all
people think alike.

Ah. I thought you were giving me the old aue business, as they like to
around here.

Sorry.

Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)

Default User

2006-10-17 22:06:32 UTC

Post by Default User
I don't believe my wording was in any way unclear.

As it appears that my wording was unclear, I'll rephrase:

A former commission of Major League Baseball was Francis Thomas "Fay"
Vincent, Jr.

In spite of that, to the best of my knowledge "Fay" isn't a common
nickname for "Francis".

Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)

Steve Hayes

2006-10-18 04:53:45 UTC

Post by Default User

I have known a male named LaVerne, and another named Faye, both of
which were the sole instances of such.

Are you sure he spelled his name "Faye"? There's a very rare nickname
in Appalachia for men that's spelled "Fay." It comes from the first
name "Fayburn."

Former MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent had the first name Francis. I don't
know that I've encountered any other instances of that.

I know several fellows named Francis, and have heard of more. It's not
at all uncommon.
A male given name (common: 1 in 625 males;
popularity rank in the U.S.: #127)
A female given name (common: 1 in 2564 females;
popularity rank in the U.S.: #393)
On the other hand, Frances is not so common among males...
A female given name (very common: 1 in 270 females;
popularity rank in the U.S.: #47)
A male given name (rare: 1 in 20000 males;
popularity rank in the U.S.: #962)

Frank and Fanny.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Oleg Lego

2006-10-17 21:18:06 UTC

Post by Wayne Brown

Post by Oleg Lego
I have known a male named LaVerne, and another named Faye,
both of
which were the sole instances of such.

Are you sure he spelled his name "Faye"? There's a very rare
nickname in Appalachia for men that's spelled "Fay." It comes
from the first name "Fayburn."

Yes, I'm sure. It was not short for anything. He said he took a lot of
heat for it in school, and was under considerable pressure from his
peers to use his middle name, but stuck it out because, as he said
"It's my name, and I'm not ashamed of it." I have no idea what his
middle name was. He told me, but I can't remember more than that it
was a pretty normal sounding boy's name.

Wayne Brown

2006-10-18 12:16:04 UTC

Oleg Lego wrote:

[...man's name Faye]

Post by Oleg Lego
Yes, I'm sure. It was not short for anything. He said he took
a lot of heat for it in school, and was under considerable
pressure from his peers to use his middle name, but stuck
it out because, as he said "It's my name, and I'm not
ashamed of it." I have no idea what his middle name was.
He told me, but I can't remember more than that it was a
pretty normal sounding boy's name.

Faye's father perhaps heard "A Boy Named Sue," the song Johnny
Cash recorded in 1969, and he may have been encouraged by the
father's reason for naming his son Sue. The song was apparently
inspired by the name of Sue K. Hicks, the Tennessee man who was
one of the prosecutors in the infamous trial against John Scopes
in 1925 for teaching evolution in school. Hicks was named after
his mother, who died giving birth to him. Now, that's what I
call erecting a monument to a wife!

A prominent case of a man with a female first name is that of
Zane Grey. Zane was his middle name from his mother's family who
were instrumental in founding Zanesville, Ohio. His first name
was Pearl. It's hard to imagine that name for the author of
_Riders of the Purple Sage_, but you can never tell what
Americans are going to get up to next. You don't happen to know
an American man by the name of Mary, do you?

Regards, ----- WB.

CDB

2006-10-18 16:07:26 UTC

Wayne Brown wrote:
[...]

Post by Wayne Brown
You don't happen to know
an American man by the name of Mary, do you?

FSV of "American" (and "Mary"). In Buenos Aires we lived in Calle
Alejandro Maria Aguado.

R H Draney

2006-10-18 15:53:38 UTC

Post by Wayne Brown
A prominent case of a man with a female first name is that of
Zane Grey. Zane was his middle name from his mother's family who
were instrumental in founding Zanesville, Ohio. His first name
was Pearl. It's hard to imagine that name for the author of
_Riders of the Purple Sage_, but you can never tell what
Americans are going to get up to next. You don't happen to know
an American man by the name of Mary, do you?

American, no, but there are a lot of European men who carry the name "Maria"
around with them....

I remember long discussions back in the 60s about what sex Jewel Akens ("The
Birds And The Bees") was...the fact that his vocal range was on the high end
didn't help matter any; he certainly had a higher voice than his contemporary
Cher Bono....r

--
"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.

CDB

2006-10-18 16:29:30 UTC

R H Draney wrote:
[...]

Post by R H Draney
I remember long discussions back in the 60s about what sex Jewel
Akens ("The Birds And The Bees") was...the fact that his vocal
range was on the high end didn't help matter any; he certainly had
a higher voice than his contemporary Cher Bono....r

ObCanadianMusicAppreciation: Ever notice how, with your eyes closed,
you can't tell if it's Anne Murray singing, or Roch Voisine?

R H Draney

2006-10-18 18:45:35 UTC

Post by CDB
[...]

ObCanadianMusicAppreciation: Ever notice how, with your eyes closed,
you can't tell if it's Anne Murray singing, or Roch Voisine?

I'm unacquainted with the latter, but I've noticed how much a Melanie LP played
at 45rpm sounds like Stevie Nicks....r

--
"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.

CDB

2006-10-19 13:38:13 UTC

Post by CDB
[...]

ObCanadianMusicAppreciation: Ever notice how, with your eyes
closed, you can't tell if it's Anne Murray singing, or Roch
Voisine?

I'm unacquainted with the latter, but I've noticed how much a
Melanie LP played at 45rpm sounds like Stevie Nicks....r

At least Stevie is just another gal on speed. Roch (pron. "rock") is
a kind of heartthrob; so it must be embarrassing for him to sound like
Anne, or vice versa, if they know.

http://www.rochvoisine.com/

R H Draney

2006-10-19 15:01:02 UTC

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
[...]

ObCanadianMusicAppreciation: Ever notice how, with your eyes
closed, you can't tell if it's Anne Murray singing, or Roch
Voisine?

I'm unacquainted with the latter, but I've noticed how much a
Melanie LP played at 45rpm sounds like Stevie Nicks....r

In that case, I give you Rod Stewart and Bonnie Tyler....r

--
"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.

Oleg Lego

2006-10-19 03:53:35 UTC

Post by Wayne Brown
[...man's name Faye]

Faye's father perhaps heard "A Boy Named Sue," the song Johnny
Cash recorded in 1969, and he may have been encouraged by the
father's reason for naming his son Sue.

I met Faye in about 1972 or 73. I would guess he was about 50-55 years
old at the time.

No, but there's a fairly prominent Marion or three. Of course Marion
is not limited to Americans. It's a common Eastern European name.

Paul Wolff

2006-10-19 19:08:11 UTC

No, but there's a fairly prominent Marion or three. Of course Marion
is not limited to Americans. It's a common Eastern European name.

I correspond occasionally, businesswise, with a Slovenian Marjan (plus
diacritics) who I assume is a chap, though I try to avoid any commitment
to sex.

--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo!

Wood Avens

2006-10-20 08:52:38 UTC

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:08:11 +0100, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff
I correspond occasionally, businesswise, with a Slovenian Marjan (plus
diacritics) who I assume is a chap, though I try to avoid any commitment
to sex.

Hmm. The Marjan I know is female. She's not Slovenian, though, but
Dutch, so you may be right.

--
Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Graeme Thomas

2006-10-20 18:20:38 UTC

Post by Wood Avens
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:08:11 +0100, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff
I correspond occasionally, businesswise, with a Slovenian Marjan (plus
diacritics) who I assume is a chap, though I try to avoid any commitment
to sex.

Hmm. The Marjan I know is female. She's not Slovenian, though, but
Dutch, so you may be right.

I used to work[1] with a Marjan. She was most definitely female. She
was, I think, Latvian.

[1] The company for which I was then working had an office in Riga.
Marjan worked in the Riga office, and I didn't.

--
Graeme Thomas

Skitt

2006-10-20 18:54:04 UTC

Post by Graeme Thomas
I used to work[1] with a Marjan. She was most definitely female. She
was, I think, Latvian.
[1] The company for which I was then working had an office in Riga.
Marjan worked in the Riga office, and I didn't.

It can be, but the spelling is incomplete. In Latvian, there are specific
endings for male and female names, and "n" is not one of them. It has to be
either Marjana, Marjanna, or Marjans. The first two are female, the last is
male.

The confusing part might be that Latvian is a very inflected language, and
the vocative for the male name is "Marjan!"

When I was still using my original name, Americans always addressed me using
the nominative case, rather than the vocative, and that was weird. I took
care of that by adopting an American name. They could never pronounce my
name correctly anyway.

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

Paul Wolff

2006-10-21 15:46:02 UTC

It can be, but the spelling is incomplete. In Latvian, there are
specific endings for male and female names, and "n" is not one of them.
It has to be either Marjana, Marjanna, or Marjans. The first two are
female, the last is male.
The confusing part might be that Latvian is a very inflected language,
and the vocative for the male name is "Marjan!"
When I was still using my original name, Americans always addressed me
using the nominative case, rather than the vocative, and that was
weird. I took care of that by adopting an American name. They could
never pronounce my name correctly anyway.

Enquiry in soc.culture.slovenia tells me that Marjan is man's name
there, and Marjana the corresponding woman's name.

Now my wife tells me that she's spoken to this Marjan on the phone and I
could have saved myself the trouble...

--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo!

Mike Lyle

2006-10-19 19:45:41 UTC

[...]

No, but there's a fairly prominent Marion or three. Of course Marion
is not limited to Americans. It's a common Eastern European name.

Actually, "Mary" as a male middle name isn't completely unknown among
English or Irish Catholics. I knew an English one named "Richard
Mary..." It's just our "Mario", after all -- never mind any hyphened
Rainer-Marias you may happen to know.

I've just looked in the Oxford names book, and apparently neither
"Marius" -- a good name, I think -- nor "Mario" _were_ actually
masculine forms of "Maria", but have become so through usage. The book
also says that "Maria" was a mistake by the Vulgate (black mark, young
Jerome), which took the Septuagint's "Mariam", for Hebrew "Mrym", as an
accusative.

--
Mike.

Robert Bannister

2006-10-14 23:49:31 UTC

Post by LFS

Post by Steve Hayes
In English, Stephen and Steven are pronounced identically, and either may be
abbreviated as Steve.

[..]
If I read "Stephe" I would immediately assume that this was short for
Stephanie. Although I have seen this most frequently shortened to
Steffie or Stephie, I did once encounter a student who preferred Stephee.
And I once met a (rather odd) Steven who pronounced his name to rhyme
with "heaven".

I once took a pottery class having a student named Cheryl. If you
called her "share-ill", she would correct you, telling you it was
"chair-ill". The second time I called her "share-ill", she again
corrected me, saying "It's 'chair-il', with a 'chi'."
Being easy to get along with, I made it a point from that time on, to
address her as "Chair-ill with a ch."

I have known at least three Gillians who insisted on having their name
pronounced with a hard G.

--
Rob Bannister

Skitt

2006-10-15 00:23:02 UTC

Post by Robert Bannister
I have known at least three Gillians who insisted on having their name
pronounced with a hard G.

I'd hope so.

--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

Mike Lyle

2006-10-18 19:38:13 UTC

Post by Robert Bannister
I have known at least three Gillians who insisted on having their name
pronounced with a hard G.

I'd hope so.

Heck, no! "Gillian" with a [j] is a feminine name, of which "Jillian"
is a mere alternative spelling; "Ghillean" (sp?) with a [g] is a
Scottish masculine one. ("Gillian", I find, is the English version of
"Juliana".)

--
Mike.

Skitt

2006-10-18 19:49:37 UTC

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Robert Bannister
I have known at least three Gillians who insisted on having their
name pronounced with a hard G.

I'd hope so.

Heck, no! "Gillian" with a [j] is a feminine name, of which "Jillian"
is a mere alternative spelling;

Well, leave it to the English to screw up the spelling/pronunciation stuff.

Post by Mike Lyle
"Ghillean" (sp?) with a [g] is a Scottish masculine one.

The "Gh" makes sense.

Post by Mike Lyle
("Gillian", I find, is the English version of "Juliana".)

And I met a guy who introduced his girlfriend Jillian to me as Hillian (he
was Mexican).

Anyway, this is fun, and I made my "I'd hope so" remark in fun. There is no
sense in arguing English pronunciation idiosyncrasies. Even more so when
names come into play.

--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

Aaron J. Dinkin

2006-10-19 18:58:10 UTC

Post by Mike Lyle
Heck, no! "Gillian" with a [j] is a feminine name, of which "Jillian"
is a mere alternative spelling; "Ghillean" (sp?) with a [g] is a
Scottish masculine one. ("Gillian", I find, is the English version of
"Juliana".)

The only Gillian with a [g] I know is female.

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom

Mike Lyle

2006-10-19 19:31:14 UTC

Post by Aaron J. Dinkin

The only Gillian with a [g] I know is female.

Perhaps her brother's named "Julia".

--
Mike.

S***@verizon.net

2015-12-15 02:12:21 UTC

Perhaps you are thinking of Stephen King.
In English, Stephen and Steven are pronounced identically, and either may be
abbreviated as Steve.
But Stephan is pronounced "Steffun"
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Third Eye Blind Front Man uses Stephan for "STEEVen" It's the first Edition of Gender Proper "STEEVen" The "STEEVen with a ph" like mine is actually the second specifically for the coronation of King Stephen who's original French name was Estienne. Stephan was dicontinued as "STeF-an with a ph" after Queen Victoria's death. Our society has gotten backwards and use Mine the same way. The E-PH rib is intended to be different from Stephanie. Males first E long and PH F's Last pronunciation found in OF said "uV" It's actually a Conspiracy!

David Kleinecke

2015-12-15 04:05:52 UTC

Post by S***@verizon.net

I was wrong the last time.

Here is a sporadic that is NOT from gmail.com.

Peter Moylan

2015-12-15 05:53:09 UTC

[...]

Post by David Kleinecke
I was wrong the last time.
Here is a sporadic that is NOT from gmail.com.

But he is from Google Groups, so all is well.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2015-12-15 10:59:44 UTC

Post by S***@verizon.net

A contestant on the recently finished, Dec 2015, UK TV show "X Factor"
was named Anton Stephans. "Stephans" was pronounced as "Stevens" with
"Steev-".

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Steve Hayes

2015-12-16 05:57:23 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:59:44 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by S***@verizon.net

A contestant on the recently finished, Dec 2015, UK TV show "X Factor"
was named Anton Stephans. "Stephans" was pronounced as "Stevens" with
"Steev-".

And then there was our (now retired) cricket player Fanie de Villiers,
and most UK sports commentators pronounced his name as "Funny".

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Peacenik

2006-10-13 17:55:24 UTC

The horror author?

His name is spelled "Stephen King", and in English, "Stephen" is generally
pronounced the same as "Steven" (i.e. STEE-ven). Cetainly Stephen King
himself pronounces it that way.

s***@gmail.com

2020-01-11 20:59:27 UTC

The Gender Variants of "STEVEN" are both tagged but subject to realistic ambiguous pronunciations due to spelling. The Tags are Canon First:

STEPHAN: is "STeF-an,STəF-ahn" "STEEV-en"

STEPHEN: is "STEEV-ən/STeF-ən"

Dingbat

2020-01-25 00:14:04 UTC

Post by fairycat
It's kind of confusing. By looking at "Stephan", it seems like, for me
of course, to be pronounced as "Stefan".

If it were spelt <Stephan>, [stefAn] would be one possible pronunciation.
I don't know what other possibilities there are.

Post by fairycat
But official pronunciation of
"Stephan King" in my country is "Steven King". Is this right?

I don't know. It depends on which your country is.

Post by fairycat
Can "Stephan" be pronounced either "Steven" or "Steve"?

In the US, yes.

Would it have [St] in Germany, like the [St] in <Stadt>?
And how do various Europeans pronounce <ph>?

There are places where initial <sk>, <st> and <sp> are tongue twisters.
In India, <st> could be [Ist] or [t] and <ph> could be [p<h>] or [f]
or [p] or, for some speakers, [pf]. My Hindi tutor would pronounce
Sanskritic <phal> as [pfal] with [pf] being like in German [pfUnd].

Quinn C

2020-01-28 22:58:49 UTC

Post by fairycat
It's kind of confusing. By looking at "Stephan", it seems like, for me
of course, to be pronounced as "Stefan".

If it were spelt <Stephan>, [stefAn] would be one possible pronunciation.
I don't know what other possibilities there are.

Post by fairycat
But official pronunciation of
"Stephan King" in my country is "Steven King". Is this right?

I don't know. It depends on which your country is.

Post by fairycat
Can "Stephan" be pronounced either "Steven" or "Steve"?

In the US, yes.

But <Stephen> is a far more common spelling.

Post by Dingbat
Would it have [St] in Germany, like the [St] in <Stadt>?

Yes: ['StEfan]. Very common in my generation. Mainly as <Stefan>, but
<Stephan> occurs as well.

Post by Dingbat
And how do various Europeans pronounce <ph>?

[f] in German. As usually in English, too - why is Stephen an
exception?

--
They spend so much time fussing about my identity
that I really shouldn't have to bother with it
myself at all.
-- Margaret Atwood, The Edible Woman, p.223

Ross

2020-01-28 23:24:10 UTC

Post by Quinn C

Post by fairycat
It's kind of confusing. By looking at "Stephan", it seems like, for me
of course, to be pronounced as "Stefan".

If it were spelt <Stephan>, [stefAn] would be one possible pronunciation.
I don't know what other possibilities there are.

Post by fairycat
But official pronunciation of
"Stephan King" in my country is "Steven King". Is this right?

I don't know. It depends on which your country is.

Post by fairycat
Can "Stephan" be pronounced either "Steven" or "Steve"?

In the US, yes.

But <Stephen> is a far more common spelling.

Post by Dingbat
Would it have [St] in Germany, like the [St] in <Stadt>?

Yes: ['StEfan]. Very common in my generation. Mainly as <Stefan>, but
<Stephan> occurs as well.

Post by Dingbat
And how do various Europeans pronounce <ph>?

[f] in German. As usually in English, too - why is Stephen an
exception?

Miss Withycombe says it is attested as a monk's name
in England before 1066. Presumably introduced with
/f/, which was [v] by OE intervocalic voicing, and
continued in the regular way. "Stevyn" was the common
ME spelling, but I guess some people have preferred
the retro -ph-.

CDB

2020-01-29 14:01:56 UTC

Post by Quinn C

Post by fairycat
It's kind of confusing. By looking at "Stephan", it seems like, for me
of course, to be pronounced as "Stefan".

If it were spelt <Stephan>, [stefAn] would be one possible pronunciation.
I don't know what other possibilities there are.

Post by fairycat
But official pronunciation of
"Stephan King" in my country is "Steven King". Is this right?

I don't know. It depends on which your country is.

Post by fairycat
Can "Stephan" be pronounced either "Steven" or "Steve"?

In the US, yes.

But <Stephen> is a far more common spelling.

Post by Dingbat
Would it have [St] in Germany, like the [St] in <Stadt>?

Yes: ['StEfan]. Very common in my generation. Mainly as <Stefan>, but
<Stephan> occurs as well.

Post by Dingbat
And how do various Europeans pronounce <ph>?

[f] in German. As usually in English, too - why is Stephen an
exception?

There are a few others. "Nephew" in BrE comes to mind, and "phial",
which Ross's explanation seems not to apply to. You get "v" in the
familiar "nevvie", and in "vial".

Ross

2020-01-30 06:48:14 UTC

Post by CDB

Post by Quinn C