Conductors axed from NB4L/New Routemaster/Boris Bus

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 16:37:58 +0100

Post by Someone Somewhere
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36764417
I assume this means the rear platform doors will now always be closed
between stops, obviating one of the (small) benefits of this vehicle?

It obviates the only remaining benefit given their hybrid systems seem to be a
miserable failure too. Hopefully in 10 years or so they'll be sold on and
some standard buses - whether hybrid or pure electric who knows - will be
bought instead for considerably less.

On that subject I'm not entirely sure why successive mayors have never even
considered trolley buses, at least in part like in Boston where its electric
part of the way and a diesel engine takes over where the wires stop. Seems to
me it would be a perfect solution for central london.

--
Spud

d***@yahoo.co.uk

2016-07-12 09:35:21 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
miserable failure too. Hopefully in 10 years or so they'll be sold on and
some standard buses - whether hybrid or pure electric who knows - will be
bought instead for considerably less.
On that subject I'm not entirely sure why successive mayors have never even
considered trolley buses, at least in part like in Boston where its electric
part of the way and a diesel engine takes over where the wires stop. Seems to
me it would be a perfect solution for central london.

Central London in times past resisted overhead wiring on aesthetic
grounds and there could well be objections to them now though at least
it can be argued that modern overhead can be engineered with modern
materials and looks a lot less intrusive than the big ceramic
insulators and heavy Ohio Brass* components of the former trolley bus
network.

* Even the catalog of forty years ago looks old fashioned then.
http://www.impulsenc.com/pdf/catalog_76_ohio_brass_products.pdf

G.Harman

Basil Jet

2016-07-12 09:48:22 UTC

Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk

Central London in times past resisted overhead wiring on aesthetic
grounds and there could well be objections to them now though at least
it can be argued that modern overhead can be engineered with modern
materials and looks a lot less intrusive than the big ceramic
insulators and heavy Ohio Brass* components of the former trolley bus
network.
* Even the catalog of forty years ago looks old fashioned then.
http://www.impulsenc.com/pdf/catalog_76_ohio_brass_products.pdf

Does anyone know how the trial of wireless charging on the route 69 is
coming along?

Paul Corfield

2016-07-12 12:33:58 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
Does anyone know how the trial of wireless charging on the route 69 is
coming along?

Short answer - no.

Longer answer - after a wobbly start and poor vehicle availability the
3 buses are now in regular daily use. I've not seen definitive
comment as to whether a charging pad has been installed at Canning
Town. There is definitely one at Walthamstow and the buses charge up
on it.

There has been no commentary in any TfL reports in recent weeks about
the trial. There is also a long gap until the next "Panel" meetings -
presumably because a new TfL board is in the process of being
appointed.

--
Paul C

Basil Jet

2016-07-12 13:19:19 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
Does anyone know how the trial of wireless charging on the route 69 is
coming along?

Thanks Paul, looks like your short answer should have been "Yes!"

Paul Corfield

2016-07-14 23:32:10 UTC

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Basil Jet
Does anyone know how the trial of wireless charging on the route 69 is
coming along?

Thanks Paul, looks like your short answer should have been "Yes!"

I used "no" simply because there are no formally presented facts or
findings that I am aware of. My musings and anecdotes are fine as
far as they go but they're not the "words of TfL".

--
Paul C

s***@potato.field

2016-07-12 13:27:18 UTC

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:33:58 +0100

Post by Basil Jet
Does anyone know how the trial of wireless charging on the route 69 is
coming along?

Short answer - no.
Longer answer - after a wobbly start and poor vehicle availability the
3 buses are now in regular daily use. I've not seen definitive
comment as to whether a charging pad has been installed at Canning
Town. There is definitely one at Walthamstow and the buses charge up
on it.
There has been no commentary in any TfL reports in recent weeks about
the trial. There is also a long gap until the next "Panel" meetings -
presumably because a new TfL board is in the process of being
appointed.

TfL trials on buses seem to go on for years then nothing happens. I occasionally
still see the hydrogen buses drifting around Southwark - how long has that
"trial" been going on now? 5 years if not more?

--
Spud

s***@potato.field

2016-07-12 09:48:40 UTC

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:35:21 +0100

Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk

There will always be nimbys but when the positives far outweigh the negatives
of the proposal they should just be told to sod off. If Oxford street for
example had buses running on the wires a large part of its pollution issues
would be sorted in one go.

--
Spud

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-12 11:29:37 UTC

Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by s***@potato.field
miserable failure too. Hopefully in 10 years or so they'll be sold on and
some standard buses - whether hybrid or pure electric who knows - will be
bought instead for considerably less.
On that subject I'm not entirely sure why successive mayors have never
even considered trolley buses, at least in part like in Boston where its
electricpart of the way and a diesel engine takes over where the wires
stop. Seems to me it would be a perfect solution for central london.

Central London in times past resisted overhead wiring on aesthetic
grounds and there could well be objections to them now though at least
it can be argued that modern overhead can be engineered with modern
materials and looks a lot less intrusive than the big ceramic
insulators and heavy Ohio Brass* components of the former trolley bus
network.
* Even the catalog of forty years ago looks old fashioned then.
http://www.impulsenc.com/pdf/catalog_76_ohio_brass_products.pdf

I don't recognise anything in that catalogue as like the London trolleybus
wiring of my youth.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Mark

2016-07-12 13:49:36 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 16:37:58 +0100

I hope they disappear sooner than that. At least supposedly no more are being
built, although I can't find a reference for that right now.

Who'd buy one though? Plenty of ex-London buses have ended up elsewhere, often
with the middle door removed. Where would want some over-long greenhouses with
not just one unwanted door but two, and an unwanted staircase too!

Everything about them is awful. I can't think of a single redeeming feature.

s***@potato.field

2016-07-12 13:59:34 UTC

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 06:49:36 -0700 (PDT)

Post by Mark
I hope they disappear sooner than that. At least supposedly no more are being
built, although I can't find a reference for that right now.

I doubt Kahn will finance any more of them.

Post by Mark
Who'd buy one though? Plenty of ex-London buses have ended up elsewhere, often
with the middle door removed. Where would want some over-long greenhouses with
not just one unwanted door but two, and an unwanted staircase too!
Everything about them is awful. I can't think of a single redeeming feature.

They do look quite nice. But thats about it IMO. Hardly a reason for the 350K
a pop price tag.

--
Spud

Recliner

2016-07-12 15:18:25 UTC

Post by Mark

Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 16:37:58 +0100

I hope they disappear sooner than that. At least supposedly no more are being
built, although I can't find a reference for that right now.

No more are to be ordered, but I think the last order, placed this January,
is still being built. At least the last batch have cleaner Euro 6 engines.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/davehillblog/2016/feb/03/london-mayor-cut-price-deal-could-signal-end-of-boris-bus

Paul Corfield

2016-07-14 23:39:55 UTC

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:18:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner

Post by Recliner
No more are to be ordered, but I think the last order, placed this January,
is still being built. At least the last batch have cleaner Euro 6 engines.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/davehillblog/2016/feb/03/london-mayor-cut-price-deal-could-signal-end-of-boris-bus

They've had euro6 engines since LT 273 was delivered. In the first
272 buses there were also six trial euro6 equipped LTs.

The extra batch of 195 may or may not be in build. We are at the point
of annual factory holidays and the buses up to LT805 have arrived. I
understand Wrights will be decommissioning one of the two production
lines so the rate of deliveries will slow somewhat - 141 due up to
March 2016 and the balance of 54 in financial year 2017/18 (starts
April 2017).

The only known pending conversions are the 189 (buses have arrived),
the 21 and 76. There are space / parking problems at Brent Cross bus
stn which have delayed the introduction of NB4Ls on the 189.

I think it is clear that TfL will order no more NB4Ls. A decision is
needed as to how many shorther length versions will be included in the
remaining 195 vehicles.

--
Paul C

Recliner

2016-07-15 00:58:52 UTC

Post by Paul Corfield
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:18:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner

March 2016 or 2017? The latter I assume.

Guy Gorton

2016-07-14 17:43:09 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 16:37:58 +0100

It obviates the only remaining benefit given their hybrid systems seem to be a
miserable failure too. Hopefully in 10 years or so they'll be sold on and
some standard buses - whether hybrid or pure electric who knows - will be
bought instead for considerably less.
On that subject I'm not entirely sure why successive mayors have never even
considered trolley buses, at least in part like in Boston where its electric
part of the way and a diesel engine takes over where the wires stop. Seems to
me it would be a perfect solution for central london.

I have been to Boston but not recently. Is it still, like most places
in the USA,, cluttered with overhead wiring?

Guy Gorton

s***@potato.field

2016-07-15 08:16:04 UTC

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 18:43:09 +0100

Post by Guy Gorton

Post by s***@potato.field
On that subject I'm not entirely sure why successive mayors have never even
considered trolley buses, at least in part like in Boston where its electric
part of the way and a diesel engine takes over where the wires stop. Seems to
me it would be a perfect solution for central london.

I have been to Boston but not recently. Is it still, like most places
in the USA,, cluttered with overhead wiring?

Don't know, I haven't been there since the 90s. I just read about their hybrid
trolleybus system. Seemed like a good solution to the problems of pollution
in central london to me.

--
Spud

Robin9

2016-07-15 08:50:01 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 18:43:09 +0100
On that subject I'm not entirely sure why successive mayors have neve
even
considered trolley buses, at least in part like in Boston where it
electric
part of the way and a diesel engine takes over where the wires stop
Seems to
me it would be a perfect solution for central london.-
I have been to Boston but not recently. Is it still, like most places
in the USA,, cluttered with overhead wiring?-
Don't know, I haven't been there since the 90s. I just read about thei
hybrid
trolleybus system. Seemed like a good solution to the problems o
pollution
in central london to me.
--
Spud

It is a good solution - or, at least, partial solution - but it's
different, original and not part of the stultifying orthodoxy
London politicians adhere to. Don't expect people like Khan
and Shawcross to embrace any idea that does not involve
blaming everything on the motorist

--
Robin9

s***@potato.field

2016-07-15 16:02:10 UTC

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 10:50:01 +0200

Post by Robin9

Post by s***@potato.field
Don't know, I haven't been there since the 90s. I just read about their hybrid
trolleybus system. Seemed like a good solution to the problems of pollution
in central london to me.
--
Spud

Yes, it seems car drivers seem to be the cause of all traffic ills in London
when if you look at the average central london traffic jam it usually consists
of buses, taxis & minicabs. Which is probably why Kahn wants to extend the
congestion charge to the north circular (hopefully exclusive, not inclusive).
I have no problem restricting cars in the central area, but taking it that
far out is just taking the piss and simply a cynical money raising scheme.

--
Spud

Recliner

2016-07-15 20:14:57 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 10:50:01 +0200

Post by Robin9

I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the north and
south circulars, not the cc zone:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-size-londons-clean-air-zone-pollution

s***@potato.field

2016-07-16 17:01:36 UTC

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 20:14:57 -0000 (UTC)

Post by s***@potato.field
Yes, it seems car drivers seem to be the cause of all traffic ills in London
when if you look at the average central london traffic jam it usually

consists

Post by s***@potato.field
of buses, taxis & minicabs. Which is probably why Kahn wants to extend the
congestion charge to the north circular (hopefully exclusive, not inclusive).
I have no problem restricting cars in the central area, but taking it that
far out is just taking the piss and simply a cynical money raising scheme.

I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the north and
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-size-l
ndons-clean-air-zone-pollution

Thats even worse since anyone who lives inside the north circ and has a car
older than 10 years (I think) won't be able to drive it!

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2016-07-17 08:56:07 UTC

Post by Recliner
I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the north and
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-size-l
ndons-clean-air-zone-pollution

Thats even worse since anyone who lives inside the north circ and has a car
older than 10 years (I think) won't be able to drive it!

It's a fee for any diesel that doesn't meet the emission standards
introduced ten years ago. Older ones might, if the manufacturers fitted
a compliant engine earlier than absolutely necessary.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2016-07-17 12:27:02 UTC

On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:56:07 +0100

Post by Recliner
I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the north and
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-size

Post by Recliner
ndons-clean-air-zone-pollution

Thats even worse since anyone who lives inside the north circ and has a car
older than 10 years (I think) won't be able to drive it!

It's a fee for any diesel that doesn't meet the emission standards
introduced ten years ago. Older ones might, if the manufacturers fitted
a compliant engine earlier than absolutely necessary.

There are a lot of cars owned by people living in inner london that are more
than 10 years old, usually because they can't afford a newer one. So all Kahns
policy will achieve is to push the lesser well off off the roads if they can't
afford his tax. Sorry, fee.

I imagine if it is introduced the fines will simply be ignored and the courts
will end up with a backlog of so many cases they'll simply dump the lot and ask
him to rethink.

--
Spud

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-17 18:46:42 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:56:07 +0100

Post by Recliner
I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the north

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-s

ize-londons-clean-air-zone-pollution

Post by Recliner
Thats even worse since anyone who lives inside the north circ and has a
car older than 10 years (I think) won't be able to drive it!

It's a fee for any diesel that doesn't meet the emission standards
introduced ten years ago. Older ones might, if the manufacturers fitted
a compliant engine earlier than absolutely necessary.

There are a lot of cars owned by people living in inner london that are
more than 10 years old, usually because they can't afford a newer one. So
all Kahns policy will achieve is to push the lesser well off off the
roads if they can't afford his tax. Sorry, fee.
I imagine if it is introduced the fines will simply be ignored and
the courts will end up with a backlog of so many cases they'll simply
dump the lot and ask
him to rethink.

Since they're also the main victims of the excessive pollution, it seems
more reasonable than some taxes.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

s***@potato.field

2016-07-18 08:17:10 UTC

On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 13:46:42 -0500

Post by s***@potato.field
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:56:07 +0100

Post by Recliner
I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the north

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-s

ize-londons-clean-air-zone-pollution

Post by Recliner
Thats even worse since anyone who lives inside the north circ and has a
car older than 10 years (I think) won't be able to drive it!

It's a fee for any diesel that doesn't meet the emission standards
introduced ten years ago. Older ones might, if the manufacturers fitted
a compliant engine earlier than absolutely necessary.

There are a lot of cars owned by people living in inner london that are
more than 10 years old, usually because they can't afford a newer one. So
all Kahns policy will achieve is to push the lesser well off off the
roads if they can't afford his tax. Sorry, fee.
I imagine if it is introduced the fines will simply be ignored and
the courts will end up with a backlog of so many cases they'll simply
dump the lot and ask
him to rethink.

Since they're also the main victims of the excessive pollution, it seems
more reasonable than some taxes.

While I'll agree something needs to be done about the pollution in London,
essentially outlawing cars that that will affect the less well off is not the
way to do it. The millionaire in his 8mpg 2016 Lambo isn't going to be
affected but the single mum in a low paid job (for example) driving a 2000
micra will be. Its disgusting.

Still, Labour have been showing their disdain for the working classes for years
so I guess this shouldn't come as a surprise.

--
Spud

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-18 10:29:11 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 13:46:42 -0500

Post by s***@potato.field
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:56:07 +0100

Post by Recliner
I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the north

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-

size-londons-clean-air-zone-pollution

Post by s***@potato.field
Thats even worse since anyone who lives inside the north circ and has
a car older than 10 years (I think) won't be able to drive it!

It's a fee for any diesel that doesn't meet the emission standards
introduced ten years ago. Older ones might, if the manufacturers
fitted a compliant engine earlier than absolutely necessary.

There are a lot of cars owned by people living in inner london that are
more than 10 years old, usually because they can't afford a newer one.
So all Kahns policy will achieve is to push the lesser well off off the
roads if they can't afford his tax. Sorry, fee.
I imagine if it is introduced the fines will simply be ignored and
the courts will end up with a backlog of so many cases they'll simply
dump the lot and ask him to rethink.

Since they're also the main victims of the excessive pollution, it seems
more reasonable than some taxes.

While I'll agree something needs to be done about the pollution in
London, essentially outlawing cars that that will affect the less
well off is not the way to do it. The millionaire in his 8mpg 2016
Lambo isn't going to be
affected but the single mum in a low paid job (for example) driving a
2000 micra will be. Its disgusting.
Still, Labour have been showing their disdain for the working classes for
years so I guess this shouldn't come as a surprise.

If the pollution is reduced then the residents, even the poor ones, will be
better off health-wise.

Anyway, isn't the tax on diesels only? People can always get an old
petrol-engined car as I have.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Recliner

2016-07-18 10:44:08 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 13:46:42 -0500

Post by s***@potato.field
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:56:07 +0100

Post by Recliner
I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the north

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-

size-londons-clean-air-zone-pollution

Post by s***@potato.field
Thats even worse since anyone who lives inside the north circ and has
a car older than 10 years (I think) won't be able to drive it!

It's a fee for any diesel that doesn't meet the emission standards
introduced ten years ago. Older ones might, if the manufacturers
fitted a compliant engine earlier than absolutely necessary.

There are a lot of cars owned by people living in inner london that are
more than 10 years old, usually because they can't afford a newer one.
So all Kahns policy will achieve is to push the lesser well off off the
roads if they can't afford his tax. Sorry, fee.
I imagine if it is introduced the fines will simply be ignored and
the courts will end up with a backlog of so many cases they'll simply
dump the lot and ask him to rethink.

Since they're also the main victims of the excessive pollution, it seems
more reasonable than some taxes.

While I'll agree something needs to be done about the pollution in
London, essentially outlawing cars that that will affect the less
well off is not the way to do it. The millionaire in his 8mpg 2016
Lambo isn't going to be
affected but the single mum in a low paid job (for example) driving a
2000 micra will be. Its disgusting.
Still, Labour have been showing their disdain for the working classes for
years so I guess this shouldn't come as a surprise.

If the pollution is reduced then the residents, even the poor ones, will be
better off health-wise.
Anyway, isn't the tax on diesels only? People can always get an old
petrol-engined car as I have.

It does apply to petrol as well, but only on much older vehicles. In 2020,
the many five-year-old diesel cars will be subject to the tax, but only
14-year-old petrol cars (of which not many remain on the roads).

Roland Perry

2016-07-18 11:09:44 UTC

In message
<909927929.490530964.546239.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 10:44:08 on Mon, 18 Jul 2016, Recliner

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Anyway, isn't the tax on diesels only? People can always get an old
petrol-engined car as I have.

Are you sure about that? I though any diesel sold in 2006 or later would
have a sufficiently clean engine.

--
Roland Perry

Neil Williams

2016-07-18 12:06:05 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Are you sure about that? I though any diesel sold in 2006 or later
would have a sufficiently clean engine.

He's right - they are going for the *next* Euro standard for diesels -
you can't even buy one yet, or if you can they've only been out for a
year or so.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

Roland Perry

2016-07-18 15:26:21 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Are you sure about that? I though any diesel sold in 2006 or later
would have a sufficiently clean engine.

He's right - they are going for the *next* Euro standard for diesels -
you can't even buy one yet, or if you can they've only been out for a
year or so.

Mine is Euro 4 (2005 on), and I thought they wanted to discourage
anything that wasn't at least Euro 5 (2009 onwards).

The goalposts have moved to Euro 6? (2014 on).

--
Roland Perry

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-18 20:09:50 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Are you sure about that? I though any diesel sold in 2006 or later
would have a sufficiently clean engine.

He's right - they are going for the *next* Euro standard for diesels -
you can't even buy one yet, or if you can they've only been out for a
year or so.

Mine is Euro 4 (2005 on), and I thought they wanted to discourage
anything that wasn't at least Euro 5 (2009 onwards).
The goalposts have moved to Euro 6? (2014 on).

Maybe not those goalposts. No diesel cars supposedly meeting those Euro
standards actually do so on the road as has been made clear by Volkswagen.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Roland Perry

2016-07-18 20:34:36 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Are you sure about that? I though any diesel sold in 2006 or later
would have a sufficiently clean engine.

He's right - they are going for the *next* Euro standard for diesels -
you can't even buy one yet, or if you can they've only been out for a
year or so.

Mine is Euro 4 (2005 on), and I thought they wanted to discourage
anything that wasn't at least Euro 5 (2009 onwards).
The goalposts have moved to Euro 6? (2014 on).

Maybe not those goalposts. No diesel cars supposedly meeting those Euro
standards actually do so on the road as has been made clear by Volkswagen.

Sure about that? The VW scandal only involves those cars where they
refrained from fitting the Ad-Blu equipment (to save money and boot
space). There are plenty of cars which do have that equipment fitted,
including the subsequent model of my car since 2009 (to meet Euro 5).

--
Roland Perry

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-19 00:28:45 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Are you sure about that? I though any diesel sold in 2006 or later
would have a sufficiently clean engine.

He's right - they are going for the *next* Euro standard for diesels -
you can't even buy one yet, or if you can they've only been out for a
year or so.

Mine is Euro 4 (2005 on), and I thought they wanted to discourage
anything that wasn't at least Euro 5 (2009 onwards).
The goalposts have moved to Euro 6? (2014 on).

Maybe not those goalposts. No diesel cars supposedly meeting those Euro
standards actually do so on the road as has been made clear by Volkswagen.

Measurements of actual pollution from Euro 4 and later vehicles in Cambridge
rather undermined the City Council's plans to clean up the city centre where
pollution levels are illegally high. We were doing so well too, before
reality intruded. :-(

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Roland Perry

2016-07-19 08:36:35 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Are you sure about that? I though any diesel sold in 2006 or later
would have a sufficiently clean engine.

He's right - they are going for the *next* Euro standard for diesels -
you can't even buy one yet, or if you can they've only been out for a
year or so.

Mine is Euro 4 (2005 on), and I thought they wanted to discourage
anything that wasn't at least Euro 5 (2009 onwards).
The goalposts have moved to Euro 6? (2014 on).

Maybe not those goalposts. No diesel cars supposedly meeting those Euro
standards actually do so on the road as has been made clear by Volkswagen.

Measurements of actual pollution from Euro 4 and later vehicles

Euro 4's time is coming up, but I'd be somewhat miffed if a Euro 5 with
ad-blu ended up being restricted in London.

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
in Cambridge rather undermined the City Council's plans to clean up the
city centre where pollution levels are illegally high.

I've never really understood that, due to the restrictions on cars
getting into the city centre at all. Is it mainly caused by the buses?

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
We were doing so well too, before reality intruded. :-(

--
Roland Perry

Neil Williams

2016-07-19 09:08:39 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Euro 4's time is coming up, but I'd be somewhat miffed if a Euro 5 with
ad-blu ended up being restricted in London.

Most Euro 5 engines don't use AdBlue, they just use a particulate
filter. It's more of a Euro 6 thing.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-19 12:19:24 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Are you sure about that? I though any diesel sold in 2006 or
later would have a sufficiently clean engine.

He's right - they are going for the *next* Euro standard for
diesels - you can't even buy one yet, or if you can they've only
been out for a year or so.

Mine is Euro 4 (2005 on), and I thought they wanted to discourage
anything that wasn't at least Euro 5 (2009 onwards).
The goalposts have moved to Euro 6? (2014 on).

Maybe not those goalposts. No diesel cars supposedly meeting those
Euro standards actually do so on the road as has been made clear by
Volkswagen.

Measurements of actual pollution from Euro 4 and later vehicles

Euro 4's time is coming up, but I'd be somewhat miffed if a Euro 5
with ad-blu ended up being restricted in London.

Euro 4 was supposed to be twice as good for NOx as Euro 3. It turns out in
reality that it isn't.

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
in Cambridge rather undermined the City Council's plans to clean up the
city centre where pollution levels are illegally high.

I've never really understood that, due to the restrictions on cars
getting into the city centre at all. Is it mainly caused by the buses?

and taxis/hire cars.

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
We were doing so well too, before reality intruded. :-(

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Roland Perry

2016-07-19 14:46:29 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Euro 4's time is coming up, but I'd be somewhat miffed if a Euro 5
with ad-blu ended up being restricted in London.

Euro 4 was supposed to be twice as good for NOx as Euro 3. It turns out in
reality that it isn't.

But I'm discussing Euro 5.

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
in Cambridge rather undermined the City Council's plans to clean up the
city centre where pollution levels are illegally high.

I've never really understood that, due to the restrictions on cars
getting into the city centre at all. Is it mainly caused by the buses?

and taxis/hire cars.

Can't the council insist they are all at least Euro 5?

--
Roland Perry

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-20 00:05:58 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Euro 4's time is coming up, but I'd be somewhat miffed if a Euro 5
with ad-blu ended up being restricted in London.

Euro 4 was supposed to be twice as good for NOx as Euro 3. It turns out
in reality that it isn't.

But I'm discussing Euro 5.

Same problem though the relative NOx improvement of 4 over 5 is smaller.

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
in Cambridge rather undermined the City Council's plans to clean up
the city centre where pollution levels are illegally high.

I've never really understood that, due to the restrictions on cars
getting into the city centre at all. Is it mainly caused by the buses?

and taxis/hire cars.

Can't the council insist they are all at least Euro 5?

All in good time given that there are maximum ages of vehicles but by now
they should be insisting on Euro 6 or even limit to pure electrics or
hybrids, for new saloons at least. I'm out of the loop now so don't know
where they've got to.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Roland Perry

2016-07-20 05:47:28 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Euro 4's time is coming up, but I'd be somewhat miffed if a Euro 5
with ad-blu ended up being restricted in London.

Euro 4 was supposed to be twice as good for NOx as Euro 3. It turns out
in reality that it isn't.

But I'm discussing Euro 5.

Same problem though the relative NOx improvement of 4 over 5 is smaller.

The various NOx limits are:

Euro 3 Jan 2000 500
Euro 4 Jan 2005 250
Euro 5 Sept 2009 180
Euro 6 Sept 2014 80

Thus Euro 4 was fairly short lived.

Most of the VWs implicated in the recent scandal were tested during the
Euro 5 time window (all the way back to 2009), and my understanding is
the most pressing trigger for the recent testing issue was the USA
moving from a "fleet average" emissions target during their equivalent
of the Euro 5 equivalent epoch to an "every model you make must pass" in
their Euro 6 equivalent epoch - while also trying to avoid the cost of
deploying AdBlue across the whole range.

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
in Cambridge rather undermined the City Council's plans to clean up
the city centre where pollution levels are illegally high.

I've never really understood that, due to the restrictions on cars
getting into the city centre at all. Is it mainly caused by the buses?

and taxis/hire cars.

Can't the council insist they are all at least Euro 5?

All in good time given that there are maximum ages of vehicles but by now
they should be insisting on Euro 6 or even limit to pure electrics or
hybrids, for new saloons at least.

Would a pure electric taxi/private hire car be able to do the Heathrow
or Gatwick run on one charge?

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I'm out of the loop now so don't know where they've got to.

--
Roland Perry

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-20 08:53:11 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Euro 4's time is coming up, but I'd be somewhat miffed if a Euro 5
with ad-blu ended up being restricted in London.

Euro 4 was supposed to be twice as good for NOx as Euro 3. It turns
out in reality that it isn't.

But I'm discussing Euro 5.

Same problem though the relative NOx improvement of 4 over 5 is smaller.

Euro 3 Jan 2000 500
Euro 4 Jan 2005 250
Euro 5 Sept 2009 180
Euro 6 Sept 2014 80
Thus Euro 4 was fairly short lived.
Most of the VWs implicated in the recent scandal were tested during
the Euro 5 time window (all the way back to 2009), and my
understanding is the most pressing trigger for the recent testing
issue was the USA moving from a "fleet average" emissions target
during their equivalent of the Euro 5 equivalent epoch to an "every
model you make must pass" in their Euro 6 equivalent epoch - while
also trying to avoid the cost of deploying AdBlue across the whole
range.

The point was that on the road surveys in central Cambridge demonstrated
much higher emissions levels with Euro 4 barely better than Euro 3 instead
of half the level.

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
in Cambridge rather undermined the City Council's plans to clean
up the city centre where pollution levels are illegally high.

I've never really understood that, due to the restrictions on cars
getting into the city centre at all. Is it mainly caused by the buses?

and taxis/hire cars.

Can't the council insist they are all at least Euro 5?

All in good time given that there are maximum ages of vehicles but by now
they should be insisting on Euro 6 or even limit to pure electrics or
hybrids, for new saloons at least.

Would a pure electric taxi/private hire car be able to do the
Heathrow or Gatwick run on one charge?

Dunno. Strictly speaking, City Council control of taxis doesn't extend
beyond the city boundary. I read that the present approach is to encourage
adoption of some electric vehicles in what will always be a mixed fleet.

All the time I was involved we wanted the County Council to use the city
centre bollards to limit the numbers of polluting vehicles. Despite their
responsibilities under the legislation they failed to act.

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I'm out of the loop now so don't know where they've got to.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

s***@potato.field

2016-07-20 09:08:53 UTC

On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 03:53:11 -0500

Post by Roland Perry
Most of the VWs implicated in the recent scandal were tested during
the Euro 5 time window (all the way back to 2009), and my
understanding is the most pressing trigger for the recent testing
issue was the USA moving from a "fleet average" emissions target
during their equivalent of the Euro 5 equivalent epoch to an "every
model you make must pass" in their Euro 6 equivalent epoch - while
also trying to avoid the cost of deploying AdBlue across the whole
range.

The point was that on the road surveys in central Cambridge demonstrated
much higher emissions levels with Euro 4 barely better than Euro 3 instead
of half the level.

Hardly surprising. Unless you use a NOx capture system such as adblue then
low NOx = higher CO2 and vice versa due to the conflicting demands of cylinder
temperatures required. Drivers don't notice NOx emissions but they do notice
rubbish fuel economy so no car company that wanted to stay in business would
sacrifice fuel economy for NOx so they make sure of low NOx figures during the
test and high everywhere else. And TBH , CO2 is a lot more important than
NOx anyway in the medium and long term.

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
All the time I was involved we wanted the County Council to use the city
centre bollards to limit the numbers of polluting vehicles. Despite their
responsibilities under the legislation they failed to act.

Its all stick and no carrot isn't it with people like you. If car drivers
arn't allowed to use a road they've legally paid to use then they the council
should offer some sort of road tax refund or provide free park and ride
services.

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2016-07-20 09:06:44 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Euro 4's time is coming up, but I'd be somewhat miffed if a Euro 5
with ad-blu ended up being restricted in London.

Euro 4 was supposed to be twice as good for NOx as Euro 3. It turns
out in reality that it isn't.

But I'm discussing Euro 5.

Same problem though the relative NOx improvement of 4 over 5 is smaller.

The point was that on the road surveys in central Cambridge demonstrated
much higher emissions levels with Euro 4 barely better than Euro 3 instead
of half the level.

Yes, that's to be expected, because the Euro tests don't reproduce real
life driving conditions.

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
in Cambridge rather undermined the City Council's plans to clean
up the city centre where pollution levels are illegally high.

I've never really understood that, due to the restrictions on cars
getting into the city centre at all. Is it mainly caused by the buses?

and taxis/hire cars.

Can't the council insist they are all at least Euro 5?

All in good time given that there are maximum ages of vehicles but by now
they should be insisting on Euro 6 or even limit to pure electrics or
hybrids, for new saloons at least.

Would a pure electric taxi/private hire car be able to do the
Heathrow or Gatwick run on one charge?

Dunno. Strictly speaking, City Council control of taxis doesn't extend
beyond the city boundary. I read that the present approach is to encourage
adoption of some electric vehicles in what will always be a mixed fleet.
All the time I was involved we wanted the County Council to use the city
centre bollards to limit the numbers of polluting vehicles. Despite their
responsibilities under the legislation they failed to act.

Different transponders for different classes of emissions?

--
Roland Perry

Neil Williams

2016-07-20 09:49:40 UTC

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Dunno. Strictly speaking, City Council control of taxis doesn't extend
beyond the city boundary. I read that the present approach is to encourage
adoption of some electric vehicles in what will always be a mixed fleet.

In any case, private taxis going to/from airports a long way out of
London that have viable[1] public transport services is hardly to be
encouraged.

[1] Yes, I know, GTR...

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

Roland Perry

2016-07-20 10:09:30 UTC

In any case, private taxis going to/from airports a long way out of
London that have viable[1] public transport services is hardly to be
encouraged.

To continue that "viability" test, where train services fall down most
badly is getting people to and from the early and late flights, which
are so commonplace in the lost cost and charter airline industries.

--
Roland Perry

Neil Williams

2016-07-20 11:01:31 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
To continue that "viability" test, where train services fall down most
badly is getting people to and from the early and late flights, which
are so commonplace in the lost cost and charter airline industries.

This is very true when not travelling to/from Central London. Most of
these London taxis of the kind which would be low-range electric cars
are going to be operating in Central London.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

Basil Jet

2016-07-20 10:43:41 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Would a pure electric taxi/private hire car be able to do the Heathrow
or Gatwick run on one charge?

LOL. London taxis get rides to Salisbury, Liverpool, Sheffield or Hull
with zero warning in advance.

s***@potato.field

2016-07-18 13:27:33 UTC

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:44:08 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner
It does apply to petrol as well, but only on much older vehicles. In 2020,
the many five-year-old diesel cars will be subject to the tax, but only
14-year-old petrol cars (of which not many remain on the roads).

I forsee a large increase in the number of right hand drive bulgarian and
romanian registered cars on the roads in london.

--
Spud

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-18 20:09:50 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:44:08 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner
It does apply to petrol as well, but only on much older vehicles. In
2020, the many five-year-old diesel cars will be subject to the tax, but
only 14-year-old petrol cars (of which not many remain on the roads).

I forsee a large increase in the number of right hand drive bulgarian and
romanian registered cars on the roads in london.

Saw a Romanian one in Cambridge the other day.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Roland Perry

2016-07-18 11:08:21 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
While I'll agree something needs to be done about the pollution in
London, essentially outlawing cars that that will affect the less
well off is not the way to do it. The millionaire in his 8mpg 2016
Lambo isn't going to be
affected but the single mum in a low paid job (for example) driving a
2000 micra will be. Its disgusting.
Still, Labour have been showing their disdain for the working classes for
years so I guess this shouldn't come as a surprise.

If the pollution is reduced then the residents, even the poor ones, will be
better off health-wise.
Anyway, isn't the tax on diesels only? People can always get an old
petrol-engined car as I have.

The problem with that is they tend to be gas guzzlers. I swapped my 2001
petrol car for a 2005 diesel last year and literally doubled the MPG
(same size engine and a slightly bigger vehicle).

--
Roland Perry

bob

2016-07-18 17:07:37 UTC

If the pollution is reduced then the residents, even the poor ones, will be
better off health-wise.
Anyway, isn't the tax on diesels only? People can always get an old
petrol-engined car as I have.

The problem with that is they tend to be gas guzzlers. I swapped my 2001
petrol car for a 2005 diesel last year and literally doubled the MPG
(same size engine and a slightly bigger vehicle).

Not an entirely fare comparison. Diesel is denser than petrol, so a gallon
of diesel will emit more CO2 than a gallon of petrol. There's also the
issue that Diesel engines produce significantly more of the types of
emissions that are directly harmful to human health in an urban
environment, namely particulates and NOx. Diesel engines burn with a
diffusion flame in excess air while petrol engines burn with a premixed
flame in roughly stoichiometric air/fuel conditions. The diffusion flame
gives rise to the particulates problem due to incomplete combustion. If you
have an exhaust gas without free oxygen, a simple catalytic converter will
reduce NOx to molecular nitrogen and molecular oxygen (ie the stuff in
regular air). If you use the same catalyst with excess oxygen (as is
present in diesel exhaust), the oxidizing environment will drive the
chemistry the other way and potentially increase rather than reduce (in
both senses) the NOx. There are other chemical pathways that can be used to
reduce the NOx emissions from a Diesel engine, generally involving urea
(the industry has adopted the name ad blue because marketing people think
the word "urea" might be unpopular).

There is the other issue that between 2001 and 2005 engine technology for
both petrol and Diesel engines improved, so it's not really a like for like
comparison in terms of technology level.

Robin

Roland Perry

2016-07-18 20:09:07 UTC

Post by bob

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Anyway, isn't the tax on diesels only? People can always get an old
petrol-engined car as I have.

The problem with that is they tend to be gas guzzlers. I swapped my 2001
petrol car for a 2005 diesel last year and literally doubled the MPG
(same size engine and a slightly bigger vehicle).

Not an entirely fare comparison. Diesel is denser than petrol, so a gallon
of diesel will emit more CO2 than a gallon of petrol. There's also the
issue that Diesel engines produce significantly more of the types of
emissions that are directly harmful to human health in an urban
environment, namely particulates and NOx. Diesel engines burn with a
diffusion flame in excess air while petrol engines burn with a premixed
flame in roughly stoichiometric air/fuel conditions. The diffusion flame
gives rise to the particulates problem due to incomplete combustion. If you
have an exhaust gas without free oxygen, a simple catalytic converter will
reduce NOx to molecular nitrogen and molecular oxygen (ie the stuff in
regular air). If you use the same catalyst with excess oxygen (as is
present in diesel exhaust), the oxidizing environment will drive the
chemistry the other way and potentially increase rather than reduce (in
both senses) the NOx. There are other chemical pathways that can be used to
reduce the NOx emissions from a Diesel engine, generally involving urea
(the industry has adopted the name ad blue because marketing people think
the word "urea" might be unpopular).
There is the other issue that between 2001 and 2005 engine technology for
both petrol and Diesel engines improved,

Doubling the MPG? Really?

Post by bob
so it's not really a like for like
comparison in terms of technology level.

I'm comparing 8p/mile vs 16p/mile.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2016-07-18 13:22:35 UTC

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 05:29:11 -0500

Post by s***@potato.field
Still, Labour have been showing their disdain for the working classes for
years so I guess this shouldn't come as a surprise.

If the pollution is reduced then the residents, even the poor ones, will be
better off health-wise.

Yes, but there are better ways of doing it than suddenly imposing a tax.
They could say that your *current* car won't be taxed no matter what its age,
but when you buy your next one *that* will be unless it meets XYZ regulations.

--
Spud

tim...

2016-07-18 09:20:29 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:56:07 +0100

Post by Recliner
I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the north and
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-size

Post by Recliner
ndons-clean-air-zone-pollution

Thats even worse since anyone who lives inside the north circ and has a car
older than 10 years (I think) won't be able to drive it!

It's a fee for any diesel that doesn't meet the emission standards
introduced ten years ago. Older ones might, if the manufacturers fitted
a compliant engine earlier than absolutely necessary.

There are a lot of cars owned by people living in inner london that are more
than 10 years old, usually because they can't afford a newer one.

I've got a car from 06, it's worth perhaps 1200 pounds.

how much cheaper than that do you expect to get (and still get a car that
reliably starts every time you want it to?)

tim

s***@potato.field

2016-07-18 09:28:40 UTC

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:20:29 +0100

Post by tim...

Post by s***@potato.field
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:56:07 +0100

Post by Recliner
I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the north and
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-si

Post by Roland Perry
l

Post by Recliner
ndons-clean-air-zone-pollution

Thats even worse since anyone who lives inside the north circ and has a car
older than 10 years (I think) won't be able to drive it!

It's a fee for any diesel that doesn't meet the emission standards
introduced ten years ago. Older ones might, if the manufacturers fitted
a compliant engine earlier than absolutely necessary.

There are a lot of cars owned by people living in inner london that are more
than 10 years old, usually because they can't afford a newer one.

I've got a car from 06, it's worth perhaps 1200 pounds.
how much cheaper than that do you expect to get (and still get a car that
reliably starts every time you want it to?)

If someone is on minium wage then 1200 quid is a lot of money. Why do you
think there's such a big market for few hundred quid bangers? Drive around
some of the poorer areas of London and note the years on the reg plates.
Even in my normal middle class street there are quite a few pre 2000 vehicles.

--
Spud

Recliner

2016-07-18 09:33:33 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:20:29 +0100

Post by tim...

Post by s***@potato.field
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:56:07 +0100

Post by Recliner
I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the north and
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-si

Post by Roland Perry
l

Post by Recliner
ndons-clean-air-zone-pollution

Thats even worse since anyone who lives inside the north circ and has a car
older than 10 years (I think) won't be able to drive it!

It's a fee for any diesel that doesn't meet the emission standards
introduced ten years ago. Older ones might, if the manufacturers fitted
a compliant engine earlier than absolutely necessary.

There are a lot of cars owned by people living in inner london that are more
than 10 years old, usually because they can't afford a newer one.

I've got a car from 06, it's worth perhaps 1200 pounds.
how much cheaper than that do you expect to get (and still get a car that
reliably starts every time you want it to?)

I think it's only old diesels that are affected. Small old cars are rarely
diesels.

s***@potato.field

2016-07-18 10:05:47 UTC

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 09:33:33 -0000 (UTC)

Post by s***@potato.field
If someone is on minium wage then 1200 quid is a lot of money. Why do you
think there's such a big market for few hundred quid bangers? Drive around
some of the poorer areas of London and note the years on the reg plates.
Even in my normal middle class street there are quite a few pre 2000

vehicles.
I think it's only old diesels that are affected. Small old cars are rarely
diesels.

Is it only diesels? Yes, there will be fewer of them about except for transits
which seem to go on forever.

Will be interesting to see if Kahn intends to apply this rule to buses, some
of which are knocking on a bit out in the suburbs where old buses go to die.

--
Spud

Recliner

2016-07-18 10:37:25 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 09:33:33 -0000 (UTC)

vehicles.
I think it's only old diesels that are affected. Small old cars are rarely
diesels.

Is it only diesels? Yes, there will be fewer of them about except for transits
which seem to go on forever.

Much newer diesels than petrol-engined cars will be subject to the charge:
<https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/check-your-vehicle?intcmp=32646#on-this-page-2>

Post by s***@potato.field
Will be interesting to see if Kahn intends to apply this rule to buses, some
of which are knocking on a bit out in the suburbs where old buses go to die.

Just curious, why do you call him "Kahn"?

Yes, coaches TfL buses are also affected:

Quote:

"By 2020, all double-decker TfL buses operating in central London will be
hybrid and all single-decker buses will be zero emission (at point of use).
This means a substantial number of double-decker buses operating in inner
London will be hybrid, as will many in outer London

We will progressively increase the number of these buses. From 2020 only
buses of this type will be allowed to operate on routes in the ULEZ"

s***@potato.field

2016-07-18 13:26:39 UTC

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:37:25 -0000 (UTC)

Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 09:33:33 -0000 (UTC)

vehicles.
I think it's only old diesels that are affected. Small old cars are rarely
diesels.

Is it only diesels? Yes, there will be fewer of them about except for

transits

Post by s***@potato.field
which seem to go on forever.

<https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/check-your-vehicle?in
cmp=32646#on-this-page-2>

Thats the current low emissions zone. Who knows what the rules will be for
the extended one out to the north circ if he goes ahead with it.

Post by s***@potato.field
Will be interesting to see if Kahn intends to apply this rule to buses, some
of which are knocking on a bit out in the suburbs where old buses go to die.

Just curious, why do you call him "Kahn"?

Kahn, Khan, who cares, he's a prick however you spell his name. Anyway, its
probably because that maker of bling range rovers is spelt k-a-h-n and thats
the only other one I know.

--
Spud

Offramp

2016-07-18 13:11:56 UTC

I've got a fairly-new Volkswagen for sale. It gives zero-emissions.

Peter Smyth

2016-07-17 21:32:11 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 20:14:57 -0000 (UTC)

Post by s***@potato.field
Yes, it seems car drivers seem to be the cause of all traffic ills

in London >> when if you look at the average central london traffic
jam it usually

Post by s***@potato.field
consists

Post by s***@potato.field
of buses, taxis & minicabs. Which is probably why Kahn wants to

extend the >> congestion charge to the north circular (hopefully
exclusive, not inclusive). >> I have no problem restricting cars in
the central area, but taking it that >> far out is just taking the
piss and simply a cynical money raising scheme.

Post by s***@potato.field
I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-size-l

Post by s***@potato.field
ndons-clean-air-zone-pollution

Thats even worse since anyone who lives inside the north circ and has
a car older than 10 years (I think) won't be able to drive it!

Under the current plans, residents will have an extra 3 years (until
2023) to comply with the emissions standards.

Peter Smyth

s***@potato.field

2016-07-18 08:17:47 UTC

On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 21:32:11 -0000 (UTC)

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 20:14:57 -0000 (UTC)

Post by s***@potato.field
Yes, it seems car drivers seem to be the cause of all traffic ills

in London >> when if you look at the average central london traffic
jam it usually

Post by s***@potato.field
consists

Post by s***@potato.field
of buses, taxis & minicabs. Which is probably why Kahn wants to

Post by s***@potato.field
I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-size-l

Post by s***@potato.field
ndons-clean-air-zone-pollution

Thats even worse since anyone who lives inside the north circ and has
a car older than 10 years (I think) won't be able to drive it!

Under the current plans, residents will have an extra 3 years (until
2023) to comply with the emissions standards.

3 years to save up for a new , or at least slightly less old car. Just what
people need when they're already struggling to make ends meet.

--
Spud

Recliner

2016-07-12 12:56:47 UTC

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 16:37:58 +0100, Someone Somewhere

It's interesting to compare this with the doo-doos on GTR. On the
buses, 300 employees in a safety role are being made redundant by a
Labour mayor to save money. I'm not aware of a squeak from the unions.

On the trains, under pressure from the DfT, the private operator is
changing the role of a few hundred guards, and the unions cause total
disruption, despite the fact that no-one will be made redundant or
suffer any degradation of their conditions. And there's no evidence
that there will be any reduction in safety.

s***@potato.field

2016-07-12 13:29:11 UTC

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:56:47 +0100

Post by Recliner
On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 16:37:58 +0100, Someone Somewhere

It's interesting to compare this with the doo-doos on GTR. On the
buses, 300 employees in a safety role are being made redundant by a
Labour mayor to save money. I'm not aware of a squeak from the unions.
On the trains, under pressure from the DfT, the private operator is
changing the role of a few hundred guards, and the unions cause total
disruption, despite the fact that no-one will be made redundant or
suffer any degradation of their conditions. And there's no evidence
that there will be any reduction in safety.

You seem surprised. The unions are only interesting in maintaining political
power, their members are a useful tool to be used when needed and forgotten
about when not. Quite why this state of affairs is allowed to continue with
the RMT is anyones guess. I should have been brought to heal and/or closed
down as a corrupt organisation years ago.

--
Spud

Robin9

2016-07-12 16:16:53 UTC

;156739']On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 16:37:58 +0100, Someone Somewhere
-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36764417
I assume this means the rear platform doors will now always be closed
between stops, obviating one of the (small) benefits of this vehicle?-
It's interesting to compare this with the doo-doos on GTR. On the
buses, 300 employees in a safety role are being made redundant by a
Labour mayor to save money.

It's been a long time since any Labour politician was
concerned to preserve proper, decently paying jobs for
working people with minimal formal education.

A major reason people like me loathe and despise the
modern Labour Party

--
Robin9

s***@potato.field

2016-07-13 08:46:53 UTC

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:16:53 +0200

Post by Robin9

It's been a long time since any Labour politician was
concerned to preserve proper, decently paying jobs for
working people with minimal formal education.

They are concerned - so long as those people are foreign. Same with the other
parties. Endless talk about how wonderful immigrants are for the country
without addressing the question of why so many are filling jobs that up until
only 10 or 15 years ago would have been mostly filled by brits. Reason? The
drop in wages in real terms and zero hours contracts with the minimum wage
being a sticking plaster sop to stop then dropping through the floor. If
you've got a family and rent/mortgage to pay you can no longer afford to have
a job in construction (for example) while Pavel and his mates living 5 to
a house can.

Post by Robin9
A major reason people like me loathe and despise the
modern Labour Party.

And why Ukip stole so many labour votes. Neither wing of the labour party
gets it though. Corbyn and the left are still fighting the battles of the 1970s
and 80s and the moderates are still stuck in the Blairite late 90s. Neither
side says anything of interest or relevance to the proverbial man in the
street.

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2016-07-13 09:36:19 UTC

If you've got a family and rent/mortgage to pay you can no longer
afford to have a job in construction (for example)

I thought plumbers were paid quite well.

Round here, the work the locals have 'lost' is crop-picking.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2016-07-13 10:56:06 UTC

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 10:36:19 +0100

If you've got a family and rent/mortgage to pay you can no longer
afford to have a job in construction (for example)

I thought plumbers were paid quite well.

I was talking more building sites. High paid blue collar jobs are probably
safe for now.

Post by Roland Perry
Round here, the work the locals have 'lost' is crop-picking.

Go into any shop and see how many english accents you hear behind the counter.
I visited dorset a couple of weeks back and was amazed to actually hear english
people working in Costa. Either the immigrants haven't made it down there yet
or the local rents & house proces are low enough to make it possible.

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2016-07-13 12:12:47 UTC

If you've got a family and rent/mortgage to pay you can no longer
afford to have a job in construction (for example)

I thought plumbers were paid quite well.

I was talking more building sites.

New buildings need plumbing too.

Post by s***@potato.field
High paid blue collar jobs are probably safe for now.

Post by Roland Perry
Round here, the work the locals have 'lost' is crop-picking.

Go into any shop and see how many english accents you hear behind the counter.

Waitrose, Tesco and Sainsburys have entirely white English staff as far
as I can tell. Although the most usual language you'll hear from
customers, in Tesco at least, is Polish.

Post by s***@potato.field
I visited dorset a couple of weeks back and was amazed to actually hear english
people working in Costa. Either the immigrants haven't made it down there yet
or the local rents & house proces are low enough to make it possible.

Pubs and coffee shops seem to be split between those who employ almost
entirely eastern Europeans, and those who employ almost entirely
English. It's striking enough that it has to be some sort of policy,
rather than just random.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2016-07-13 12:49:05 UTC

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 13:12:47 +0100

If you've got a family and rent/mortgage to pay you can no longer
afford to have a job in construction (for example)

I thought plumbers were paid quite well.

I was talking more building sites.

New buildings need plumbing too.

You know what I mean. Digger operators, brickies, concrete layers etc.

Post by Roland Perry
Waitrose, Tesco and Sainsburys have entirely white English staff as far
as I can tell. Although the most usual language you'll hear from
customers, in Tesco at least, is Polish.

Probably depends on the locale.

Post by Roland Perry
Pubs and coffee shops seem to be split between those who employ almost
entirely eastern Europeans, and those who employ almost entirely
English. It's striking enough that it has to be some sort of policy,
rather than just random.

Could be, though it would have to be unofficial for obvious reasons.

--
Spud

Roland Perry

2016-07-13 16:04:53 UTC

If you've got a family and rent/mortgage to pay you can no longer
afford to have a job in construction (for example)

I thought plumbers were paid quite well.

I was talking more building sites.

New buildings need plumbing too.

You know what I mean. Digger operators, brickies, concrete layers etc.

But plumbers, electricians etc are also required.

Probably depends on the locale.

Out in the fens.

--
Roland Perry

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-13 16:33:00 UTC

If you've got a family and rent/mortgage to pay you can no longer
afford to have a job in construction (for example)

I thought plumbers were paid quite well.

I was talking more building sites.

New buildings need plumbing too.

Post by s***@potato.field
High paid blue collar jobs are probably safe for now.

Post by Roland Perry
Round here, the work the locals have 'lost' is crop-picking.

Go into any shop and see how many english accents you hear behind the counter.

Waitrose, Tesco and Sainsburys have entirely white English staff as
far as I can tell. Although the most usual language you'll hear from
customers, in Tesco at least, is Polish.

Post by s***@potato.field
I visited dorset a couple of weeks back and was amazed to actually hear
english people working in Costa. Either the immigrants haven't made it
down there yet or the local rents & house proces are low enough to make
it possible.

Pubs and coffee shops seem to be split between those who employ
almost entirely eastern Europeans, and those who employ almost
entirely English. It's striking enough that it has to be some sort of
policy, rather than just random.

In Ely maybe. Tesco Cambridge is more diverse, in staff, customers and
goods, than Bar Hill. I was told in Bar Hill when asking for some Polish
cooked meats there that "they don't do that demographic".

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Roland Perry

2016-07-13 17:05:15 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Waitrose, Tesco and Sainsburys have entirely white English staff as
far as I can tell. Although the most usual language you'll hear from
customers, in Tesco at least, is Polish.

In Ely maybe. Tesco Cambridge is more diverse, in staff, customers and
goods, than Bar Hill.

I don't doubt it. Cambridge is an ever expanding bubble quite divorced
from the real world.

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I was told in Bar Hill when asking for some Polish
cooked meats there that "they don't do that demographic".

In Ely the Tesco only has canned/bottled/packaged-dry-goods in the
Polish aisle. You would probably have to go to one of the specialist
corner shops for fresh produce from Poland. And Aldi has a lot of
German-influenced (but still plastic packaged) produce.

--
Roland Perry

s***@potato.field

2016-07-14 08:26:59 UTC

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 18:05:15 +0100

Post by Roland Perry
In Ely the Tesco only has canned/bottled/packaged-dry-goods in the
Polish aisle. You would probably have to go to one of the specialist
corner shops for fresh produce from Poland. And Aldi has a lot of
German-influenced (but still plastic packaged) produce.

The german stores, particularly Lidl remind me of UK supermarkets in the
1970s. Slightly shabby and with vacuum packed produce that looks about as
natural as an essex blonde.

--
Spud

Neil Williams

2016-07-14 08:30:10 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
The german stores, particularly Lidl remind me of UK supermarkets in the
1970s. Slightly shabby and with vacuum packed produce that looks about as
natural as an essex blonde.

And small enough that you can get round in 20 minutes.

Though FWIW I've given up supermarket shopping - delivery is a
wonderful thing. Which is kind-of going full circle back to the time
before there even *were* supermarkets.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

s***@potato.field

2016-07-14 08:47:47 UTC

On Thu, 14 Jul 2016 09:30:10 +0100

And small enough that you can get round in 20 minutes.
Though FWIW I've given up supermarket shopping - delivery is a
wonderful thing. Which is kind-of going full circle back to the time
before there even *were* supermarkets.

The few times we tried it it actually took longer to shop online than actually
do it in the shop. Though we're lucky and live within walking distance of
a supermarket. I imagine for people in villages and small towns its a godsend.
The only problem is you have to rely on someone at the depot to pick you
fruit and veg that isn't unripe/overipe/damaged which apparently isn't always
the case according to some friends.

--
Spud

Neil Williams

2016-07-14 10:39:39 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
The few times we tried it it actually took longer to shop online than actually
do it in the shop.

If you largely buy the same stuff, it then gets easier because you can
get it to show you "what I normally buy" and "what I bought last time"
and just go through selecting quantities and clicking add. Takes maybe
10 minutes, versus over an hour to drive there, shop and drive back,
even given that I have a choice of all the major supermarkets (English,
"American", German and posh) all within 10-15 minutes' drive.

I didn't do it for years because it does take ages to set it up from
scratch, but once set up it saves hours.

Post by s***@potato.field
The only problem is you have to rely on someone at the depot to pick you
fruit and veg that isn't unripe/overipe/damaged which apparently isn't always
the case according to some friends.

There is that, though what I tend to do is to have a load of
non-perishable/frozen stuff delivered (and freeze the fresh meat
myself) once a month, then pick up fruit, veg, milk[1] and bread when
it is convenient, often from smaller shops. It's much easier to do
that on the way home from somewhere than to do a full shop.

[1] Though I order a load as a starter - the "filtered" stuff tastes
nicer and keeps nearly 2 weeks unopened.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

Graham Murray

2016-07-14 18:45:42 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
The few times we tried it it actually took longer to shop online than actually
do it in the shop. Though we're lucky and live within walking distance of
a supermarket. I imagine for people in villages and small towns its a godsend.
The only problem is you have to rely on someone at the depot to pick you
fruit and veg that isn't unripe/overipe/damaged which apparently isn't always
the case according to some friends.

Not only the pickers but also the packers (and possibly delivery
drivers). Things can easily be squashed in the crates, and things which
clearly labelled "keep upright" arrive on their side. Frozen food can be
left out of the freezer for too long and partially thaw and
refreeze[1].

[1] Evidenced, for example, by frozen clumps of peas or beans in the bag.

David Cantrell

2016-07-18 15:29:07 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
The few times we tried it it actually took longer to shop online than actually
do it in the shop.

I don't see how that is even possible. I just add items to my shopping
basket whenever I'm close to running out of them. That takes about as
long as writing them on a shopping list would.

Then placing the order at the end of the week takes far less time than
walking to the shop, let alone walking around the shop and then back
home again.

Finally, the time it takes to accept delivery is basically zero, because
all I have to do is open the door, take bags off them, and that's it.

--
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity
-- Hanlon's Razor

Stupidity maintained long enough is a form of malice
-- Richard Bos's corollary

s***@potato.field

2016-07-18 16:03:22 UTC

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 16:29:07 +0100

Post by s***@potato.field
The few times we tried it it actually took longer to shop online than

actually

Post by s***@potato.field
do it in the shop.

I don't see how that is even possible. I just add items to my shopping
basket whenever I'm close to running out of them. That takes about as
long as writing them on a shopping list would.

My supermarket is a 3 min walk away. I know exactly where everything is and
I can go around in about 5-10 mins.

Meanwhile, in a sodding web browser: click-click-where-is-it-click-click-
click-oh-ffs-do-I-want-this-click-click-browser-hangs-click etc etc rinse and
repeat.

--
Spud

Neil Williams

2016-07-18 16:10:15 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
My supermarket is a 3 min walk away. I know exactly where everything is and
I can go around in about 5-10 mins.

Both of those are extremely exceptional. Most people cannot do a round
trip to their nearest supermarket and a family weekly shop in less than
an hour and a half or so.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-19 00:11:55 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
My supermarket is a 3 min walk away. I know exactly where everything is
and I can go around in about 5-10 mins.

Both of those are extremely exceptional. Most people cannot do a
round trip to their nearest supermarket and a family weekly shop in
less than an hour and a half or so.

Good grief! In remote parts of the countryside maybe but not in cities where
most people live.

It takes me about 5 minutes to cycle to one of my 3 nearest supermarkets and
never more than an hour to do the family shopping even when I cycle further
as I did today.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Neil Williams

2016-07-19 07:24:05 UTC

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
It takes me about 5 minutes to cycle to one of my 3 nearest supermarkets and
never more than an hour to do the family shopping even when I cycle further
as I did today.

If you are cycling to a supermarket (rather than driving, or bus there
and taxi back) you are going to be doing a rather smaller shop than a
typical weekly family shop. Again you are an exception. And again
most people (other than possibly in London) do not live within 5
minutes' cycle ride of the nearest full-size supermarket.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-19 12:19:24 UTC

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
It takes me about 5 minutes to cycle to one of my 3 nearest supermarkets
and never more than an hour to do the family shopping even when I cycle
further as I did today.

If you are cycling to a supermarket (rather than driving, or bus
there and taxi back) you are going to be doing a rather smaller shop
than a typical weekly family shop. Again you are an exception. And
again most people (other than possibly in London) do not live within
5 minutes' cycle ride of the nearest full-size supermarket.

You are making rash assumptions about the amount of shopping I carry on my
bike!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Neil Williams

2016-07-19 13:24:23 UTC

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
You are making rash assumptions about the amount of shopping I carry on my
bike!

Do you have a large luggage trailer? If so, you are *even more* of an
exception.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-20 00:05:58 UTC

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
You are making rash assumptions about the amount of shopping I carry on
my bike!

Do you have a large luggage trailer? If so, you are *even more* of
an exception.

No, just baskets, bags and handlebars sufficient to carry £50 pounds' worth
home on Sunday.

My experience over many years is that Usenet posters are not typical
shoppers.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

martin

2016-07-14 19:40:59 UTC

And small enough that you can get round in 20 minutes.
Though FWIW I've given up supermarket shopping - delivery is a
wonderful thing. Which is kind-of going full circle back to the time
before there even *were* supermarkets.

well that reminds me that in the late 50's I did a grocers round on
what was then a brand new trade bike, fantastic, much better paid
than a paper round and tips galore, I was better off then than when
I left school a few years later...

Post by Neil Williams
Neil

--
Martin

Neil Williams

2016-07-14 08:29:11 UTC

If you want actual German stuff, Lidl is a better bet - Aldi have
Anglicised their range far more than they have.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-14 12:11:11 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Waitrose, Tesco and Sainsburys have entirely white English staff as
far as I can tell. Although the most usual language you'll hear from
customers, in Tesco at least, is Polish.

In Ely maybe. Tesco Cambridge is more diverse, in staff, customers and
goods, than Bar Hill.

I don't doubt it. Cambridge is an ever expanding bubble quite
divorced from the real world.

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
I was told in Bar Hill when asking for some Polish
cooked meats there that "they don't do that demographic".

I'm not sure which category you think cooked meat (including sausages) comes
in.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Roland Perry

2016-07-14 13:40:50 UTC

I'm not sure which category you think cooked meat (including sausages) comes
in.

Plastic packaged fresh produce. I think Tesco might have tinned
'hot-dog' type sausages. But nothing else that would qualify as
"produce" (fresh or otherwise).

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2016-07-15 08:41:12 UTC

I'm not sure which category you think cooked meat (including sausages) comes
in.

Plastic packaged fresh produce. I think Tesco might have tinned
'hot-dog' type sausages. But nothing else that would qualify as
"produce" (fresh or otherwise).

I had a look yesterday, and they don't have tinned sausages. The closest
to fresh produce is tinfoil foil packed sliced ham (a very small package
presumably for making one sandwich), what looks a lot like a Polish
version of Spam, and several types of tinned fish.

--
Roland Perry

d***@yahoo.co.uk

2016-07-13 12:55:35 UTC

Post by s***@potato.field
Go into any shop and see how many english accents you hear behind the counter.
I visited dorset a couple of weeks back and was amazed to actually hear english
people working in Costa. Either the immigrants haven't made it down there yet
or the local rents & house proces are low enough to make it possible.

Dorset tends to be very expensive as most of the County is desirable
countryside or seaside that attracts "Home in the Country types" who
are escaping the rat race around the home counties and have a wad of
cash from selling a property in or close to London.
The combined conurbation of Poole and Bournemouth has cheaper areas as
does Weymouth . Not having a fast Motorway and a fairly long commute
by train discourages some of the pressure for people who want to move
out of London for a more affordable home so there is less competition
from that market compared to say Southampton.
There is some commuting but it tends to be people already a little up
the career ladder who don't need to get the 05.33 off Weymouth every
day and choose when they need to visit the London Office.

G.Harman

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-13 14:23:39 UTC

If you've got a family and rent/mortgage to pay you can no longer
afford to have a job in construction (for example)

I thought plumbers were paid quite well.
Round here, the work the locals have 'lost' is crop-picking.

To the extent that they still did the work. AFAICS most stopped long before
2004.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Roland Perry

2016-07-13 16:06:25 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Round here, the work the locals have 'lost' is crop-picking.

To the extent that they still did the work. AFAICS most stopped long before
2004.

No-one is stopping them from bidding for the work.

--
Roland Perry

Offramp

2016-07-12 17:42:30 UTC

This bus will now be free to most members of the public. Quite handy in cold weather if you have no money and no ticket. You can travel Pimlico to Hampstead and back again all day long for nothing.

Peter Smyth

2016-07-12 18:13:55 UTC

Post by Offramp

Post by Someone Somewhere
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36764417
I assume this means the rear platform doors will now always be
closed between stops, obviating one of the (small) benefits of this
vehicle?

This bus will now be free to most members of the public. Quite handy
in cold weather if you have no money and no ticket. You can travel
Pimlico to Hampstead and back again all day long for nothing.

The conductors didn't check tickets anyway.

Peter Smyth

Recliner

2016-07-12 19:45:34 UTC

Post by Peter Smyth

Post by Offramp

Post by Someone Somewhere
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36764417
I assume this means the rear platform doors will now always be
closed between stops, obviating one of the (small) benefits of this
vehicle?

This bus will now be free to most members of the public. Quite handy
in cold weather if you have no money and no ticket. You can travel
Pimlico to Hampstead and back again all day long for nothing.

The conductors didn't check tickets anyway.

They weren't even called conductors. But their presence did mean that most
people boarding at the rear platform did touch in. But no-one checks that
people boarding through the middle door touch in, so I'd have thought fare
evasion was already much greater on these buses than normal two-door buses.

s***@potato.field

2016-07-13 08:36:34 UTC

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 19:45:34 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner
They weren't even called conductors. But their presence did mean that most
people boarding at the rear platform did touch in. But no-one checks that
people boarding through the middle door touch in, so I'd have thought fare
evasion was already much greater on these buses than normal two-door buses.

Which is ironic given one of Boris' reasons for ditching the bendy buses was
the fare evasion aspect.

--
Spud

Offramp

2016-07-13 06:00:36 UTC

I often hear then reminding people to touch in, whatever door they use.

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-14 17:36:11 UTC

If you want actual German stuff, Lidl is a better bet - Aldi have
Anglicised their range far more than they have.

I agree. But my nearest one is over 20 miles away, and Aldi is half a
mile.

I think your Aldi is the nearest to Cambridge at present.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

r***@cix.compulink.co.uk

2016-07-18 16:05:54 UTC

In article

Post by s***@potato.field
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 13:46:42 -0500

Post by s***@potato.field
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:56:07 +0100

Post by Recliner
I thought Khan only wanted to extend the clean air zone to the

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/13/sadiq-khan-to-double-size
-londons-clean-air-zone-pollution