I think Mourinho choked.

[j***@semavenca.com]

I think Mourinho choked.

He never went to the line, never gave instructions on the pitch, never
supported his players during play time, made two defensive changes
trying to keep the score low, I didn’t see him in the quarrel
Cristiano-Guardiola…

OTH, I am happy for tiki-taka football, for farm football (Valdez,
Puyol, Piqué, Busquets, Xavi Hernández, Iniesta, Messi, Bojan, Jeffren
Suarez *, Pedro). Even Mourinho himself had a brief spell at
Barcelona’s farm. I don’t like check-book teams as Real Madrid.

I am glad for Mourinho being trashed. I have never liked arrogant
people.

But mind you, La Liga is still not over. The UCL is still not over.

And Mourinho, despite that you like him or not, is a very good coach.
Otherwise he wouldn’t have won two UCL’s and a quite a few leagues.


Juan Vázquez


* Born in Ciudad Bolívar, Venezuela, moved to Spain at the age of one.
A couple of years ago after having a photo holding a Venezuelan flag
making faces to the Vinotinto, chose to play for Spain.

[Jordi]

Post by j***@semavenca.com
I think Mourinho choked.

He went trying to sit back and counter, got one not even 10 minutes
into the game, got the second 10 minutes later.

He threw the towel at that point.

[The Scrutineer]

Post by j***@semavenca.com
I think Mourinho choked.
He went trying to sit back and counter, got one not even 10 minutes
into the game, got the second 10 minutes later.
He threw the towel at that point.

I totally agree, and struggle to think of any team in the world who after
2-0 had any real chance of a comeback!!!

[higgs]

Post by The Scrutineer

Post by j***@semavenca.com
I think Mourinho choked.
He went trying to sit back and counter, got one not even 10 minutes
into the game, got the second 10 minutes later.
He threw the towel at that point.

I totally agree, and struggle to think of any team in the world who after
2-0 had any real chance of a comeback!!!

Arsenal

[The Scrutineer]

Post by The Scrutineer

Post by j***@semavenca.com
I think Mourinho choked.
He went trying to sit back and counter, got one not even 10 minutes
into the game, got the second 10 minutes later.
He threw the towel at that point.

I totally agree, and struggle to think of any team in the world who after
2-0 had any real chance of a comeback!!!
Arsenal

Stand corrected delightfully, I cant believe I forgot!!!

But more specifically at the Camp Nou, I cant remember such a recent
event!!! Or I might be wrong again?

[Binder Dundat]

Post by j***@semavenca.com
I think Mourinho choked.

No he was fine, his translations were perfect!

Seriously though his team is not a team, too many guys who only want
to run with the ball and not look to include teammates. His son is the
worst one, all he does is put his head down and run at goal and shoot,
the only one looking to pass to a teammate is Oezil, and when he took
him off it was truly over, Real never even came close to having a goal
scoring chance after he was subbed. ( I missed the first 30 mins so I
am not sure how they were doing early in the game but it sounded like
Barca came out flying?)

Barca on the other hand are always looking to include a teammate and
they support each other really well, wonderful game by them, nobody
seems to like what they call "tiki taki passing" but I for one think
if you control the ball you control the game. The short passing, ball
possession game is the type of game I would play.

Ramos should get at least a 5 game suspension in my opinion.

[Alkamista]

Post by j***@semavenca.com
I think Mourinho choked.
He never went to the line, never gave instructions on the pitch, never
supported his players during play time, made two defensive changes
trying to keep the score low, I didn’t see him in the quarrel
Cristiano-Guardiola…
OTH, I am happy for tiki-taka football, for farm football (Valdez,
Puyol, Piqué, Busquets, Xavi Hernández, Iniesta, Messi, Bojan, Jeffren
Suarez *, Pedro). Even Mourinho himself had a brief spell at
Barcelona’s farm.  I don’t like check-book teams as Real Madrid.
I am glad for Mourinho being trashed.  I have never liked arrogant
people.
But mind you, La Liga is still not over.  The UCL is still not over.
And Mourinho, despite that you like him or not, is a very good coach.
Otherwise he wouldn’t have won two UCL’s and a quite a few leagues.
Juan Vázquez

It's interesting, the euphoria from this victory almost parallels that
from a WC or UCL victory. It is nothing more than 3 points for Barca
as far as the season goes, not even the GD matters much because it is
not a major La Liga tie-breaker. On the other hand, Mourinho has
suffered a massive bruise to his ego, regardless of the laughable
remarks he made about this not being a humiliation. (those remarks in
themselves are a humiliation, if he was smart he would shut up right
now). Up till now he was near infallible, able to chide anyone without
exposing himself to a strong rebuttal. But he has people laughing at
him from several different angles:

1) His recent remarks about Arsenal being a perpetual work in
progress. He nows claims the same for his, even though his core team
(i.e. minus Di Maria and the Germans) has played together for over a
year, and this is not early season, we are a third into it.
2) One of his most famous quotes, that he doesn't want to learn how to
lose 4-0 in a UCL final from Cruyff, must be evoking a strong chuckle
from the Dutchman.
3) His prancing about like a apache at Nou Camp last year. Talk about
sweet revenge.

It's going to be very interesting rest of the season at the Bernabeu.

[Futbolmetrix]

Post by Alkamista
It's interesting, the euphoria from this victory almost parallels that
from a WC or UCL victory. It is nothing more than 3 points for Barca
as far as the season goes, not even the GD matters much because it is
not a major La Liga tie-breaker.

Actually, since the first tie-breaker is head-to-head, this win basically
assures Barca the advantage over Real if they end up tied on points, so it's
worth *more* than 3 points.

D

[Alkamista]

Post by Futbolmetrix

Post by Alkamista
It's interesting, the euphoria from this victory almost parallels that
from a WC or UCL victory. It is nothing more than 3 points for Barca
as far as the season goes, not even the GD matters much because it is
not a major La Liga tie-breaker.

Actually, since the first tie-breaker is head-to-head, this win basically
assures Barca the advantage over Real if they end up tied on points, so it's
worth *more* than 3 points.

Yes, you are correct.

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
I think Mourinho choked.
He never went to the line, never gave instructions on the pitch, never
supported his players during play time, made two defensive changes
trying to keep the score low, I didn’t see him in the quarrel
Cristiano-Guardiola…
OTH, I am happy for tiki-taka football, for farm football (Valdez,
Puyol, Piqué, Busquets, Xavi Hernández, Iniesta, Messi, Bojan, Jeffren
Suarez *, Pedro). Even Mourinho himself had a brief spell at
Barcelona’s farm. I don’t like check-book teams as Real Madrid.

Barcelona, second biggest spenders in the World over the past decade.

[Alkamista]

 > Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by j***@semavenca.com
I think Mourinho choked.
He never went to the line, never gave instructions on the pitch, never
supported his players during play time, made two defensive changes
trying to keep the score low, I didn t see him in the quarrel
Cristiano-Guardiola
OTH, I am happy for tiki-taka football, for farm football (Valdez,
Puyol, Piqu , Busquets, Xavi Hern ndez, Iniesta, Messi, Bojan, Jeffren
Suarez *, Pedro). Even Mourinho himself had a brief spell at
Barcelona s farm.  I don t like check-book teams as Real Madrid.

Barcelona, second biggest spenders in the World over the past decade.

Do you have a list of the biggest spenders? (over any time period)

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
Do you have a list of the biggest spenders? (over any time period)

Not until I put all my data in a database. In the mean-time :

http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2010/08/09/2062304/real-madrid-top-transfer-spenders-over-the-last-decade

This season's reinforcements have tipped the total over the €1,000m mark
with the signings of Sami Khedira, Sergio Canales, Pedro Leon and Angel
Di Maria costing just over €50m.

Over the course of the decade los Blancos have spent huge sums of money
on single transfers. Cristiano Ronaldo (€96m), Zinedine Zidane (€72m)
and Kaka (€64m) are the three most expensive of a total of 48 signings.
Last season two of those, Ronaldo and Kaka contributed to a whopping
€254 million being spent in one year.

In comparison, Barcelona have spent €713m while Roman Abramovich spent
€650m over the same period with Chelsea. However, Manchester City have
begun a Madrid type spending spree over the last three years totalling
€400m in the Premier League.

[Sven Mischkies]

Benny <***@soccer-europe.com> wrote:
http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2010/08/09/2062304/real-madrid-top-
transfer-spenders-over-the-last-decade

[..]

Post by Benny
In comparison, Barcelona have spent €713m while Roman Abramovich spent
€650m over the same period with Chelsea.

That's of course incorrect. Abramovich bought his toy less than a decade
ago.

Barca must be one of the worst spenders around in the sense that they
don't get the quality they pay for?


Ciao,
SM

[MH]

Post by Benny

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
Do you have a list of the biggest spenders? (over any time period)

http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2010/08/09/2062304/real-madrid-top-transfer-spenders-over-the-last-decade
This season's reinforcements have tipped the total over the €1,000m mark
with the signings of Sami Khedira, Sergio Canales, Pedro Leon and Angel
Di Maria costing just over €50m.
Over the course of the decade los Blancos have spent huge sums of money
on single transfers. Cristiano Ronaldo (€96m), Zinedine Zidane (€72m)
and Kaka (€64m) are the three most expensive of a total of 48 signings.
Last season two of those, Ronaldo and Kaka contributed to a whopping
€254 million being spent in one year.
In comparison, Barcelona have spent €713m

I could be wrong, but would Barca not have recovered a lot more of that
money by selling players than Real did? They got big money for Figo,
Ronaldinho, and a few others, and made profits on players like Luis Garcia.

They certainly wasted money too - on players like Rustu, Quaresma,
Saviola etc., among others.

while Roman Abramovich spent

Post by Benny
€650m over the same period with Chelsea. However, Manchester City have
begun a Madrid type spending spree over the last three years totalling
€400m in the Premier League.

[k***@gmail.com]

Post by Benny
Barcelona, second biggest spenders in the World over the past decade.

... who fielded products of their own academy at 8 starting positions
(with 2 out of 3 subs coming from the Cantera, too). What you're
saying is that Barca are hilariously bad with money, they're just so
fucking good at making superstars they can get away with it.

And by the way, who was first again? How many of their side came from
the vaunted Real Madrid youth setup?

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
... who fielded products of their own academy at 8 starting positions
(with 2 out of 3 subs coming from the Cantera, too). What you're
saying is that Barca are hilariously bad with money, they're just so
fucking good at making superstars they can get away with it.

Guys like Eto'o and Ronaldinho weren't free. Nor were the likes of
Stoichkov and Romario in the previous era. All of a sudden Barca are the
bastions of producing their own talent, an example to all? Please.

And by the way, who was first again? How many of their side came from
the vaunted Real Madrid youth setup?

Real Madrid, Casillas.

[k***@gmail.com]

Post by Benny
Guys like Eto'o and Ronaldinho weren't free. Nor were the likes of
Stoichkov and Romario in the previous era. All of a sudden Barca are the
bastions of producing their own talent, an example to all? Please.

So tell us: who's the best at fielding home-grown talent over the past
10 years?

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by Benny
Guys like Eto'o and Ronaldinho weren't free. Nor were the likes of
Stoichkov and Romario in the previous era. All of a sudden Barca are the
bastions of producing their own talent, an example to all? Please.

So tell us: who's the best at fielding home-grown talent over the past
10 years?

Fielding home grown talent? No idea. The best team with home grown
talent is Barca.

[k***@gmail.com]

 > Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by k***@gmail.com

Post by Benny
Guys like Eto'o and Ronaldinho weren't free. Nor were the likes of
Stoichkov and Romario in the previous era. All of a sudden Barca are the
bastions of producing their own talent, an example to all? Please.

So tell us: who's the best at fielding home-grown talent over the past
10 years?

Fielding home grown talent? No idea. The best team with home grown
talent is Barca.

How is that different from being the bastion of producing their own
talent!?

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
How is that different from being the bastion of producing their own
talent!?

This is one of the major European clubs with a massive budget. They
haven't suddenly started winning silverware. That this team is home
produced doesn't make them Ajax.

[k***@gmail.com]

 > Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by k***@gmail.com
How is that different from being the bastion of producing their own
talent!?

This is one of the major European clubs with a massive budget. They
haven't suddenly started winning silverware. That this team is home
produced doesn't make them Ajax.

So nobody actually competitive, within your imposed timeframe. Except
for Barca.

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by Benny

Post by k***@gmail.com
How is that different from being the bastion of producing their own
talent!?

This is one of the major European clubs with a massive budget. They
haven't suddenly started winning silverware. That this team is home
produced doesn't make them Ajax.

So nobody actually competitive, within your imposed timeframe. Except
for Barca.

It's not my timeframe. How many years has this home produced team been
together? Since Ronaldinho, Eto'o and Deco left, since Guardiola took
over, that's 2 years. So without the preceding success, without the
European Cups won by the Dream Team and Ronaldinho and Eto'o, without a
system of play, without the luxury of blooding talent in winning teams
this home grown policy isn't possible. It's a reversal of the Man United
situation and that was far more impressive because they came from
nowhere to become the dominant force in their league. Barca are
continuing the duopoly, they're still outspending all but one team in
the league, but their make-up is home produced and I'm supposed to be
impressed?

[k***@gmail.com]

 > Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by Benny

Post by k***@gmail.com
How is that different from being the bastion of producing their own
talent!?

This is one of the major European clubs with a massive budget. They
haven't suddenly started winning silverware. That this team is home
produced doesn't make them Ajax.

So nobody actually competitive, within your imposed timeframe.  Except
for Barca.

It's not my timeframe. How many years has this home produced team been
together? Since Ronaldinho, Eto'o and Deco left, since Guardiola took
over, that's 2 years.

What? Valdes, Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, even Messi played on that team.

Looking over 2001-2011 it averages 5 home-grown players a side, from
just 3 in the first 4 years up to 8 in the last 2. How does Man U
compare to that?

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by Benny
It's not my timeframe. How many years has this home produced team been
together? Since Ronaldinho, Eto'o and Deco left, since Guardiola took
over, that's 2 years.

What? Valdes, Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, even Messi played on that team.

Puyol and Valdes were excellent, no disputing that but without Eto'o,
Ronaldinho and Deco they don't win the European Cup. Xavi and Iniesta
were complete nobodies, no one regarded them among the best players in
the World at that time. They didn't even make the Ballon D'or shortlist
and that's in a year in which Tim Cahill and Edison and Tiago were
nominated.

Looking over 2001-2011 it averages 5 home-grown players a side, from
just 3 in the first 4 years up to 8 in the last 2. How does Man U
compare to that?

Easily. Pre Taggart Man United had gone 25 years without winning the
league and the bedrock of that was was the young players he brought
through, like Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Neville. Cantona was of course
their inspirational leader. Barcelona have been winning league titles in
a two team league since the dawn of time. So now they're home grown,
after massive spending and success on the back of expensively signed
foreigners so again, how is that impressive? It's not. Without the
spending of money they didn't have how do they pay their players wages
(we know it's through bank loans), how do they prevent their best
players from leaving? That's the difference between Real Madrid and
Barcelona. Real Madrid don't pretend to be something they're not, they
make no secret of their spending or their debts. Hell if they had more
debts than Man United they'd probably boast about that as well. With
Barca it's isn't our football great, isn't our youth team great, isn't
Guardiola great, he's not a c*nt like Mourinho, our players don't cheat
and dive, like Ronaldo, apart from that diving, handballing little shit
Messi and Pedro, we don't spend money, debts er didn't you hear out
football was great? Naueseating.

[k***@gmail.com]

Post by Benny

Post by k***@gmail.com
Looking over 2001-2011 it averages 5 home-grown players a side, from
just 3 in the first 4 years up to 8 in the last 2.  How does Man U
compare to that?

Easily. Pre Taggart Man United had gone 25 years without winning the
league and the bedrock of that was was the young players he brought
through, like Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Neville.

So for the 99 cup, we're talking 4? Probably 5 as you haven't
mentioned Butt. So significantly less than Barca's largest home-grown
cup.

And for '08 cup? Scholes, Giggs, Brown. The ringers? Cristiano
Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney, Van der Saar, Vidic, Hargreaves .... I really
don't see how that's more home-grown than the Catalonian part of the
'Dream Team', or Rijkaard's team.

To be honest, I'd have expected it to be a bit closer than that.

Post by Benny
With
Barca it's isn't our football great, isn't our youth team great, isn't
Guardiola great, he's not a c*nt like Mourinho, our players don't cheat
and dive, like Ronaldo, apart from that diving, handballing little shit
Messi and Pedro, we don't spend money, debts er didn't you hear out
football was great? Naueseating.

Terribly relevant stuff to a discussion about home-grown talent. For
a guy who claims to only pay attention to stats, you're an awfully
easy mark for theater.

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
So for the 99 cup, we're talking 4? Probably 5 as you haven't
mentioned Butt. So significantly less than Barca's largest home-grown
cup.

Butt wouldn't have played had Keane not been suspended and he wasn't a
key player. As mentioned earlier Barca don't win #3 without the foreign
laden success of previous years.

And for '08 cup? Scholes, Giggs, Brown. The ringers? Cristiano
Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney, Van der Saar, Vidic, Hargreaves .... I really
don't see how that's more home-grown than the Catalonian part of the
'Dream Team', or Rijkaard's team.

Didn't say it was.

Terribly relevant stuff to a discussion about home-grown talent. For
a guy who claims to only pay attention to stats, you're an awfully
easy mark for theater.

Barca's debts are a fact, their wage problem is also a fact. The way
they are portrayed in the media, also a fact. Half the players in the
dream team home-grown, not a fact.

[Chagney Hunt]

Post by Benny
Easily. Pre Taggart Man United had gone 25 years without winning the
league and the bedrock of that was was the young players he brought
through, like Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Neville. Cantona was of course
their inspirational leader.

Beckham, Scholes, Neville came later. Giggs only played bit part in
the early days. Their only true youth product of that team was Lee
Sharpe.

None of Bryan Robson, Steve Irwin, Steve Bruce, Gary Pallister, Gary
Parker, Neil Webb, McClair, e.t.c... was youth products of ManU. The
bullshit you leveled at Barsa is truer to ManU. Neither Ronaldinho nor
Eto'o has the kind of influence (spiritual leader) Eric Cantona and
Roy Keane exerted.

[RED DEVIL]

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 09:29:34 -0800 (PST), Chagney Hunt

Post by Chagney Hunt

Post by Benny
Easily. Pre Taggart Man United had gone 25 years without winning the
league and the bedrock of that was was the young players he brought
through, like Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Neville. Cantona was of course
their inspirational leader.

Beckham, Scholes, Neville came later. Giggs only played bit part in
the early days. Their only true youth product of that team was Lee
Sharpe.

Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Gary Neville, Phil Neville, Sharpe all came
through together and played in the same United youth team that won the
Youth FA Cup. Giggs came through before any of them but he also played
in that same youth team. That's 7 outfield players from the youth team
that often started the match. Robbie Savage and keith Gillespie were
also in that team but never made it at Old Trafford.

Post by Chagney Hunt
None of Bryan Robson, Steve Irwin, Steve Bruce, Gary Pallister, Gary
Parker, Neil Webb, McClair, e.t.c... was youth products of ManU. The
bullshit you leveled at Barsa is truer to ManU. Neither Ronaldinho nor
Eto'o has the kind of influence (spiritual leader) Eric Cantona and
Roy Keane exerted.

[Chagney Hunt]

Post by RED DEVIL
On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 09:29:34 -0800 (PST), Chagney Hunt

Post by Chagney Hunt

Post by Benny
Easily. Pre Taggart Man United had gone 25 years without winning the
league and the bedrock of that was was the young players he brought
through, like Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Neville. Cantona was of course
their inspirational leader.

Beckham, Scholes, Neville came later. Giggs only played bit part in
the early days. Their only true youth product of that team was Lee
Sharpe.

Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Gary Neville, Phil Neville, Sharpe all came
through together and played in the same United youth team that won the
Youth FA Cup. Giggs came through before any of them but he also played
in that same youth team. That's 7 outfield players from the youth team
that often started the match. Robbie Savage and keith Gillespie were
also in that team but never made it at Old Trafford.

You need to learn to read. Were Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Neville the
bedrock of the team that won ManU their first title after nearly 3
decades?

They might have played in the same youth team, but Shapre and Giggs
broke through first, and Sharpe had more games than Giggs, and at one
time, more hyped.

Post by RED DEVIL

Post by Chagney Hunt
None of Bryan Robson, Steve Irwin, Steve Bruce, Gary Pallister, Gary
Parker, Neil Webb, McClair, e.t.c... was youth products of ManU. The
bullshit you leveled at Barsa is truer to ManU. Neither Ronaldinho nor
Eto'o has the kind of influence (spiritual leader) Eric Cantona and
Roy Keane exerted.

[Chagney Hunt]

Post by Chagney Hunt

Post by RED DEVIL
On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 09:29:34 -0800 (PST), Chagney Hunt

Post by Chagney Hunt

Post by Benny
Easily. Pre Taggart Man United had gone 25 years without winning the
league and the bedrock of that was was the young players he brought
through, like Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Neville. Cantona was of course
their inspirational leader.

Beckham, Scholes, Neville came later. Giggs only played bit part in
the early days. Their only true youth product of that team was Lee
Sharpe.

Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Gary Neville, Phil Neville, Sharpe all came
through together and played in the same United youth team that won the
Youth FA Cup. Giggs came through before any of them but he also played
in that same youth team. That's 7 outfield players from the youth team
that often started the match. Robbie Savage and keith Gillespie were
also in that team but never made it at Old Trafford.

You need to learn to read. Were Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Neville the
bedrock of the team that won ManU their first title after nearly 3
decades?
They might have played in the same youth team, but Shapre and Giggs
broke through first, and Sharpe had more games than Giggs, and at one
time, more hyped.

Well, I assumed a blinkered ManU fan would know his club. Sharpe
wasn't in the same youth team as Beckham, Neville, e.t.c... He was at
least 4 year older than the rest of them. And he was not exactly ManU
youth product. They signed him from Torquay.

[RED DEVIL]

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 10:38:03 -0800 (PST), Chagney Hunt

Post by Chagney Hunt

Post by Chagney Hunt

Post by RED DEVIL
On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 09:29:34 -0800 (PST), Chagney Hunt

Post by Chagney Hunt

Post by Benny
Easily. Pre Taggart Man United had gone 25 years without winning the
league and the bedrock of that was was the young players he brought
through, like Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Neville. Cantona was of course
their inspirational leader.

Beckham, Scholes, Neville came later. Giggs only played bit part in
the early days. Their only true youth product of that team was Lee
Sharpe.

Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Gary Neville, Phil Neville, Sharpe all came
through together and played in the same United youth team that won the
Youth FA Cup. Giggs came through before any of them but he also played
in that same youth team. That's 7 outfield players from the youth team
that often started the match. Robbie Savage and keith Gillespie were
also in that team but never made it at Old Trafford.

You need to learn to read. Were Beckham, Scholes, Butt, Neville the
bedrock of the team that won ManU their first title after nearly 3
decades?
They might have played in the same youth team, but Shapre and Giggs
broke through first, and Sharpe had more games than Giggs, and at one
time, more hyped.

Well, I assumed a blinkered ManU fan would know his club. Sharpe
wasn't in the same youth team as Beckham, Neville, e.t.c... He was at
least 4 year older than the rest of them. And he was not exactly ManU
youth product. They signed him from Torquay.

At age 17...FFS!

[RED DEVIL]

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 10:23:45 -0800 (PST), Chagney Hunt

Post by Chagney Hunt
They might have played in the same youth team, but Shapre and Giggs
broke through first, and Sharpe had more games than Giggs, and at one
time, more hyped.

Sharpe more hyped than Giggs?

I want some of what you've been drinking

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
None of Bryan Robson, Steve Irwin, Steve Bruce, Gary Pallister, Gary
Parker, Neil Webb, McClair, e.t.c... was youth products of ManU. The
bullshit you leveled at Barsa is truer to ManU. Neither Ronaldinho nor
Eto'o has the kind of influence (spiritual leader) Eric Cantona and
Roy Keane exerted.

How many European Cups did Robson, McClair, Bruce, Pallister, Parker and
Webb win with United? Yes none. How many European Cups did Cantona win
for United? Zero. He was shite in Europe. Keane didn't play in the 1999
Final and wasn't around in 2008. Eto'o has scored in 2/3 European Cup
finals. If that's not exerting an influence I don't know what is.

[Chagney Hunt]

Post by Benny
Real Madrid don't pretend to be something they're not, they
make no secret of their spending or their debts. Hell if they had more
debts than Man United they'd probably boast about that as well. With
Barca it's isn't our football great, isn't our youth team great, isn't
Guardiola great, he's not a c*nt like Mourinho, our players don't cheat
and dive, like Ronaldo, apart from that diving, handballing little shit
Messi and Pedro, we don't spend money, debts er didn't you hear out
football was great? Naueseating.

Thanks for the comics. I've always suspected, but now I am certain you
are one of those idiots who bought into the media's narrative hook,
line, and sinker. Having your own opinion indeed, as long as that
opinion is in line with, or in reaction a simplistic media's
narrative.

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
Thanks for the comics. I've always suspected, but now I am certain you
are one of those idiots who bought into the media's narrative hook,
line, and sinker.

Right and that would be based on my views which are usually at polar
opposites to the media or bandwagons I start.

Having your own opinion indeed, as long as that opinion is in line

with, or in reaction

a simplistic media's narrative.

So you're saying in line with or not in line with. Well done. So what
was the point of your post? Oh yes, there wasn't one.

[Chagney Hunt]

 > Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
 > Thanks for the comics. I've always suspected, but now I am certain you
 > are one of those idiots who bought into the media's narrative hook,
 > line, and sinker.
Right and that would be based on my views which are usually at polar
opposites to the media or bandwagons I start.

Thanks for proving my point.

 > Having your own opinion indeed, as long as that opinion is in line
with, or in reaction
 > a simplistic media's narrative.
So you're saying in line with or not in line with. Well done. So what
was the point of your post? Oh yes, there wasn't one.

The point is, sweetie, you are a shadow boxer. You formed your
opinions on easy straw men.

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
The point is, sweetie, you are a shadow boxer. You formed your
opinions on easy straw men.

Sorry I don't deal with wiki speak.

[Chagney Hunt]

 > Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by Chagney Hunt
The point is, sweetie, you are a shadow boxer. You formed your
opinions on easy straw men.

Sorry I don't deal with wiki speak.

Sounds like you need a drink.

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
Sounds like you need a drink.

I don't NEED alcohol to function and that's enough out of you.

Plonk.

[Chagney Hunt]

 > Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by Chagney Hunt
Sounds like you need a drink.

I don't NEED alcohol to function and that's enough out of you.
Plonk.

Well, that was fun.

[RED DEVIL]

Post by Benny

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
Sounds like you need a drink.

I don't NEED alcohol to function and that's enough out of you.
Plonk.

Very informative viewpoint!....

[k***@gmail.com]

 > Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by Benny

Post by k***@gmail.com
How is that different from being the bastion of producing their own
talent!?

This is one of the major European clubs with a massive budget. They
haven't suddenly started winning silverware. That this team is home
produced doesn't make them Ajax.

So nobody actually competitive, within your imposed timeframe.  Except
for Barca.

without the
European Cups won by the Dream Team

Built around Guardiola, Luis Milla, Amor, Barjuan, and Ivan de la
Pena. That's half the team.

and Ronaldinho and Eto'o,

Built around Valdes, Puyol, Oleguer, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi.

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by Benny
European Cups won by the Dream Team

Built around Guardiola, Luis Milla, Amor, Barjuan, and Ivan de la
Pena. That's half the team.

Milla was a bench warmer, 54 appearances in five years. De La Pena was
post dream team so that's three. Absolutely nothing remarkable about that.

Post by Benny
and Ronaldinho and Eto'o,

Built around Valdes, Puyol, Oleguer, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi.

No, this team is built around the home grown players, in that team they
played second fiddle to Ronaldinho, Eto'o and Deco.

[k***@gmail.com]

 > Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by k***@gmail.com

Post by Benny
European Cups won by the Dream Team

Built around Guardiola, Luis Milla, Amor, Barjuan, and Ivan de la
Pena.  That's half the team.

Milla was a bench warmer, 54 appearances in five years. De La Pena was
post dream team so that's three.

Sorry, Ferrer, that's four. How many eras of Man Utd would you like
to compare? And is there anybody else besides Man Utd you had in
mind? Is Barca purely a checkbook team because you can think of *one*
team to compare them to (not that you've actually done it yet)?

Post by k***@gmail.com

Post by Benny
and Ronaldinho and Eto'o,

Built around Valdes, Puyol, Oleguer, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi.

No, this team is built around the home grown players, in that team they
played second fiddle to Ronaldinho, Eto'o and Deco.

Merely the heart of the defense, the captain, and Xavi, while Iniesta
and Messi were up-and-coming youngsters.

So if Barcelona are nothing to be impressed by, I'm sure you can come
up with a *handful* of Champions League contenders that you'd consider
as good or better. I want to see 3 eras of home grown talent in half
the team or more winning 3 cups. Maybe Barca have been nothing
special, in which case this should be easy for you.

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
Sorry, Ferrer, that's four. How many eras of Man Utd would you like
to compare? And is there anybody else besides Man Utd you had in
mind? Is Barca purely a checkbook team because you can think of *one*
team to compare them to (not that you've actually done it yet)?

So four home-grown players make them no different to Sacchi's Milan
(Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta, Evani) or Taggart's Man United and I
imagine just about every club pre Bosman.

Merely the heart of the defense, the captain, and Xavi, while Iniesta
and Messi were up-and-coming youngsters.

And without Ronaldinho, Eto' and Deco, just like Sacchi's Milan without
Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard, the closest those teams come to winning
European silverware is the UEFA Cup.

So if Barcelona are nothing to be impressed by, I'm sure you can come
up with a *handful* of Champions League contenders that you'd consider
as good or better. I want to see 3 eras of home grown talent in half
the team or more winning 3 cups. Maybe Barca have been nothing
special, in which case this should be easy for you.

3 eras?!?!?! I need 3 eras because? Do Barca win the European Cup in
1992 without their best 3 players - Koeman, Romario & Stoichkov? No. Do
Barca win the European Cup in 2006 without their best three players -
Ronaldinho, Eto'o & Deco? Again no. Home-grown players pre Bosman was
par for the course, nothing remarkable about that at all. There's no
disputing the impact of the home-grown players on this team but on the
others, sorry no dice and this team isn't possible with that team or
favourable tax breaks from the weak Spanish government.

[k***@gmail.com]

 > Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
 > Sorry, Ferrer, that's four.  How many eras of Man Utd would you like
 > to compare?  And is there anybody else besides Man Utd you had in
 > mind?  Is Barca purely a checkbook team because you can think of *one*
 > team to compare them to (not that you've actually done it yet)?
So four home-grown players make them no different to Sacchi's Milan
(Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta, Evani) or Taggart's Man United and I
imagine just about every club pre Bosman.
 > Merely the heart of the defense, the captain, and Xavi, while Iniesta
 > and Messi were up-and-coming youngsters.
And without Ronaldinho, Eto' and Deco, just like Sacchi's Milan without
Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard, the closest those teams come to winning
European silverware is the UEFA Cup.

I'm talking about 2 different groups of home-grown players for Barca,
you're talking about one for Milan, no?

 > So if Barcelona are nothing to be impressed by, I'm sure you can come
 > up with a *handful* of Champions League contenders that you'd consider
 > as good or better.  I want to see 3 eras of home grown talent in half
 > the team or more winning 3 cups.  Maybe Barca have been nothing
 > special, in which case this should be easy for you.
3 eras?!?!?! I need 3 eras because?

Because you're the one who dismissed the current crop of La Masia
produce because it's only been together for 2 years. Well, there was
a time when Ferguson's group had only been together for 2 years. And
what crop of cup-winning youngsters did they produce after that? The
next time was a bunch of ringers with just 3 academy passengers.
Barcelona have gone the opposite direction and gone higher:

4 in the first cup winner
5 in the second cup winner
7+1 sub in the third cup winner (in which Giggs was MU Academy's
sole representative, btw)
and monday we saw 8 starters and 2 subs from La Masia rip apart the
most expensive side ever assembled.

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.
I'm talking about 2 different groups of home-grown players for Barca,
you're talking about one for Milan, no?

In recent years yes.

Because you're the one who dismissed the current crop of La Masia
produce because it's only been together for 2 years. Well, there was
a time when Ferguson's group had only been together for 2 years. And
what crop of cup-winning youngsters did they produce after that? The
next time was a bunch of ringers with just 3 academy passengers.
4 in the first cup winner
5 in the second cup winner
7+1 sub in the third cup winner (in which Giggs was MU Academy's
sole representative, btw)
and monday we saw 8 starters and 2 subs from La Masia rip apart the
most expensive side ever assembled.

You're missing the point completely. I'm not dismissing them because
they've been together for two years. It's not as if they came from
nowhere to win six trophies in one year. They were ALREADY successful
before and they spent huge sums of money to get there. That's the point.
I don't see how you can praise an academy for turning out so many of the
first team, hailing this team as the new Ajax (who had a tiny budget)
while ignoring the fact that only Real Madrid have spent more in the
transfer market over the past decade. It doesn't matter if the money was
spent badly, that's irrelevant. On one hand Real Madrid, Chelsea, Man
City, Inter, Bayern, Mau United or whoever are blasted for being
chequebook clubs but Barca get a pass because all of sudden their first
team cost nothing? As I said with Man United it was the reverse as far
as Europe was concerned, admittedly as CH pointed out I was way off on
which of the players who catapulted the club to domestic success were
home-grown. It's like in 5 years from now if half the Man City first
team are home grown and everyone jumps on the bandwagon and praises them
for that while ignoring the vast sums of money they spent to raise their
profile, pump money into the youth team, pay massive wages etc, etc to
get there. Not that I have an issue with them of course because, unlike
some of the financial dopers, they don't have to run to the banks to
cover their debts. You can count the number of clubs who have more debt
than Barca on one hand. Over €500 million I believe. That's how much
this home-grown team cost and that's what I have a problem with.

[k***@gmail.com]

Post by Benny
You're missing the point completely. I'm not dismissing them because
they've been together for two years. It's not as if they came from
nowhere to win six trophies in one year. They were ALREADY successful
before and they spent huge sums of money to get there. That's the point.

These are hundred-year-old clubs, they've all done their fair share of
shady stuff to get where they are. Ask Dutch fans not from Ajax or
PSV about them and you'll get an earful. Viewed on that scale, yes,
of course they're all just about the same. It only makes sense to
view their recent history and more importantly, how they're moving
forward. Are they moving forward in a way that's destructive to the
game?

Buying other clubs prospects doesn't improve the game, but creating
those prospects does. That's why people find it a virtue, not because
it's simply cheap. I'm pretty sure if Barca hadn't found Messi, paid
his medical bills, etc. we wouldn't be watching him play anything
anywhere. So if Man City starts producing their own talent and
fielding it in their team, I'll applaud them. I'm waiting to see if
Chelsea's efforts work out, and I'll applaud them too. If Real
fucking Madrid did, I'd applaud while skating over the top of a frozen-
solid hell. But I'd still hope they lose to Barcelona.

[MH]

Post by k***@gmail.com

Post by Benny
You're missing the point completely. I'm not dismissing them because
they've been together for two years. It's not as if they came from
nowhere to win six trophies in one year. They were ALREADY successful
before and they spent huge sums of money to get there. That's the point.

These are hundred-year-old clubs, they've all done their fair share of
shady stuff to get where they are. Ask Dutch fans not from Ajax or
PSV about them and you'll get an earful. Viewed on that scale, yes,
of course they're all just about the same. It only makes sense to
view their recent history and more importantly, how they're moving
forward. Are they moving forward in a way that's destructive to the
game?
Buying other clubs prospects doesn't improve the game, but creating
those prospects does. That's why people find it a virtue, not because
it's simply cheap. I'm pretty sure if Barca hadn't found Messi, paid
his medical bills, etc. we wouldn't be watching him play anything
anywhere. So if Man City starts producing their own talent and
fielding it in their team, I'll applaud them. I'm waiting to see if
Chelsea's efforts work out, and I'll applaud them too. If Real
fucking Madrid did, I'd applaud while skating over the top of a frozen-
solid hell. But I'd still hope they lose to Barcelona.

Strangely enough, there is a tryptich by Hieronymus Bosch in the Prado
in Madrid showing hell on one panel, and there are some people skating
in one corner of it ! At least it looks like skating.... and ice

[k***@gmail.com]

Post by MH

Post by k***@gmail.com
If Real
fucking Madrid did, I'd applaud while skating over the top of a frozen-
solid hell.  But I'd still hope they lose to Barcelona.

Strangely enough, there is a tryptich by Hieronymus Bosch in the Prado
in Madrid showing hell on one panel, and there are some people skating
in one corner of it !  At least it looks like skating.... and ice

I don't suppose you see Laporta being devoured by one of those crazy
fish-monsters, do you? That'd seal the deal on that picture being
prediction rather than invention.

[MH]

Post by k***@gmail.com

Post by MH

Post by k***@gmail.com
If Real
fucking Madrid did, I'd applaud while skating over the top of a frozen-
solid hell. But I'd still hope they lose to Barcelona.

Strangely enough, there is a tryptich by Hieronymus Bosch in the Prado
in Madrid showing hell on one panel, and there are some people skating
in one corner of it ! At least it looks like skating.... and ice

I don't suppose you see Laporta being devoured by one of those crazy
fish-monsters, do you? That'd seal the deal on that picture being
prediction rather than invention.

Hmm. I never checked up close to see if there was a Laporta look-alike.

[Google Beta User]

Post by Benny

Post by k***@gmail.com

Post by Benny
Guys like Eto'o and Ronaldinho weren't free. Nor were the likes of
Stoichkov and Romario in the previous era. All of a sudden Barca are the
bastions of producing their own talent, an example to all? Please.

So tell us: who's the best at fielding home-grown talent over the past
10 years?

Fielding home grown talent? No idea. The best team with home grown
talent is Barca.

?

[Benny]

Subject : I think Mourinho choked.

Post by Benny

Post by k***@gmail.com

Post by Benny
Guys like Eto'o and Ronaldinho weren't free. Nor were the likes of
Stoichkov and Romario in the previous era. All of a sudden Barca are the
bastions of producing their own talent, an example to all? Please.

So tell us: who's the best at fielding home-grown talent over the past
10 years?

Fielding home grown talent? No idea. The best team with home grown
talent is Barca.

?

I would have thought the best team at FIELDING home grown talent would
be the team that turns out home grown players over a number of years.