Graham Truesdale
2011-09-10 23:38:24 UTC
What titles or other marks of recognition have they received?
Working backwards: -
George VI - I know of no claimed illegitimates
Edward VIII -
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00000489&tree=LEO
mentions 2 reputed sons. The second was born on 10th June 1935, so
would have been conceived in about September 1934, by which time Mrs
Simpson was in the ascendant.
George V - I know of no claimed illegitimates
Edward VII - did not acknowledge any illegitimates, although there were
rumours about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Cubitt,_Baroness_Ashcombe
(grandmother of the Duchess of Cornwall)
William IV - created his eldest illegitimate son Earl of Munster
(a title which he had held before his accession). The title remained
in existence until 2000 - though
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00270520&tree=LEO
says 2002
George IV -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_IV_of_the_United_Kingdom#Marriage_and_mistresses
lists a number of claimed illegitimates - although, unlike his younger
brother and successor, he does not seem to have acknowledged any
of them.
http://www.burkespeerage.com/articles/scotland/page31h.aspx
'George IV also had an illegitimate son,
1a George Seymour Crole, Ensign 21st Dragoons (1817), Lieut. 11th
Dragoons (1820), ADC to Marquess of Hastings Gov. of Bengal, and
subsequently Earl Amherst, Capt. 41st Foot (1823), Major (1826),
born 23 Aug. 1799, educ RMC Sandhurst, died unmarried 13 June 1863.'
So even if GIV had gien him a peerage, it would have died with him.
George III - I know of no claimed illegitimates other than those
referred to in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Lightfoot#Theory
George II -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_II_of_Great_Britain#Family_problems
'Amalie von Wallmoden, later Countess of Yarmouth, with whom
George had an illegitimate son, Johann Ludwig von Wallmoden. Johann
Ludwig was born while Amalie was still married to her husband, and so
George did not acknowledge him publicly as his own son.'
Is it possible to imagine a scenario where George confers the Earldom of
Yarmouth on Amalie, with a special remainder to Johann Ludwig?
(After all, George had been born in the lifetime of Charles II, who had
done something similar with the Dukedom of Cleveland)
On her death in 1765, he would become 2nd holder of the Earldom.
He died in 1811. His first son seems to have predeceased him, so
the next Earl (3rd holder of the Earldom) would have been his 2nd son
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Wallmoden-Gimborn
who died childless in 1863. Johann Ludwig's 3rd son
Karl August Ludwig , who would have become the 4th holder of the
Earldom) lived to 1883. Wiki states
'From him is descended the Oberhaus Wallmoden line.'
However, the equivalent German page
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Ludwig_von_Wallmoden-Gimborn
(from which the English page is translated) says
'mit ihm erlosch die gräfliche Linie Oberhaus Wallmoden.'
I.e. the line was extinguished with him, as opposed to descending
from him.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallmoden_(Adelsgeschlecht)#Geschichte
also calls Karl August Ludwig 'letzter Graf' - last Count.
I propose to amend wiki accordingly.
George I -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_I_of_Great_Britain#Issue
lists 3 illegitimate daughters by Ehrengard Melusine von der Schulenburg
See also
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00000192&tree=LEO
Each of them was created a Countess/Gräfin - two in Hanover,
one in Britain.
The British one - Countess of Walsingham - was a life peerage and
she had no legitimate issue, so it died with her for two reasons.
William III - I know of no claimed illegitimates
James II -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descendants_of_James_II_of_England
lists 2 illegitimate sons -
James FitzJames, 1st Duke of Berwick was so created in 1687,
when his father was reigning as King of England
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_FitzJames,_1st_Duke_of_Berwick#History
says that he 'was attainted in 1695, and his British peerages forfeit.'
https://groups.google.com/group/alt.talk.royalty/msg/a3565bc31e1b190f?hl=en
(WAR) 'see the article by Geoffrey W. Iredell in *Genealogists' Magazine*,
vol. 20, no. 5 (March 1981), pp. 147-151. Iredell presents the evidence
that
Berwick was outlawed. Since attainder can occur as a result of either an
explicit Parliamentary Act or by outlawry, and Berwick's outlawry has never
been reversed, it would appear that the Berwick title has been extinguished
by attainder.'
If he had not been, then Jacobo FitzJames Stuart, born 1947, would be
the 12th duke to-day.
Henry FitzJames, 1st Duke of Albemarle was so created in 1696, after
his father had lost the English crown. He left no sons, so the title would
have died with him even if it had been created while his father was still
reigning.
Charles II - conferred peerages on 7 of his illegitimate sons
The Earl of Plymouth died without heirs in his father's lifetime
The Duke of Northumberland died without heirs.
The Duke of Monmouth and Buccleuch was attainted (but
his wife was created Duchess of Buccleuch, and her descendant holds
the title to-day).
The Duke of Southampton (who inherited the Dukedom of
Cleveland from his mother) passed both titles to his son, but they
became extinct at his death.
The Dukedoms of Grafton, St Albans and Richmond and Lennox
are extant.
Thoughts so far?
Working backwards: -
George VI - I know of no claimed illegitimates
Edward VIII -
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00000489&tree=LEO
mentions 2 reputed sons. The second was born on 10th June 1935, so
would have been conceived in about September 1934, by which time Mrs
Simpson was in the ascendant.
George V - I know of no claimed illegitimates
Edward VII - did not acknowledge any illegitimates, although there were
rumours about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Cubitt,_Baroness_Ashcombe
(grandmother of the Duchess of Cornwall)
William IV - created his eldest illegitimate son Earl of Munster
(a title which he had held before his accession). The title remained
in existence until 2000 - though
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00270520&tree=LEO
says 2002
George IV -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_IV_of_the_United_Kingdom#Marriage_and_mistresses
lists a number of claimed illegitimates - although, unlike his younger
brother and successor, he does not seem to have acknowledged any
of them.
http://www.burkespeerage.com/articles/scotland/page31h.aspx
'George IV also had an illegitimate son,
1a George Seymour Crole, Ensign 21st Dragoons (1817), Lieut. 11th
Dragoons (1820), ADC to Marquess of Hastings Gov. of Bengal, and
subsequently Earl Amherst, Capt. 41st Foot (1823), Major (1826),
born 23 Aug. 1799, educ RMC Sandhurst, died unmarried 13 June 1863.'
So even if GIV had gien him a peerage, it would have died with him.
George III - I know of no claimed illegitimates other than those
referred to in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Lightfoot#Theory
George II -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_II_of_Great_Britain#Family_problems
'Amalie von Wallmoden, later Countess of Yarmouth, with whom
George had an illegitimate son, Johann Ludwig von Wallmoden. Johann
Ludwig was born while Amalie was still married to her husband, and so
George did not acknowledge him publicly as his own son.'
Is it possible to imagine a scenario where George confers the Earldom of
Yarmouth on Amalie, with a special remainder to Johann Ludwig?
(After all, George had been born in the lifetime of Charles II, who had
done something similar with the Dukedom of Cleveland)
On her death in 1765, he would become 2nd holder of the Earldom.
He died in 1811. His first son seems to have predeceased him, so
the next Earl (3rd holder of the Earldom) would have been his 2nd son
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Wallmoden-Gimborn
who died childless in 1863. Johann Ludwig's 3rd son
Karl August Ludwig , who would have become the 4th holder of the
Earldom) lived to 1883. Wiki states
'From him is descended the Oberhaus Wallmoden line.'
However, the equivalent German page
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Ludwig_von_Wallmoden-Gimborn
(from which the English page is translated) says
'mit ihm erlosch die gräfliche Linie Oberhaus Wallmoden.'
I.e. the line was extinguished with him, as opposed to descending
from him.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallmoden_(Adelsgeschlecht)#Geschichte
also calls Karl August Ludwig 'letzter Graf' - last Count.
I propose to amend wiki accordingly.
George I -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_I_of_Great_Britain#Issue
lists 3 illegitimate daughters by Ehrengard Melusine von der Schulenburg
See also
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00000192&tree=LEO
Each of them was created a Countess/Gräfin - two in Hanover,
one in Britain.
The British one - Countess of Walsingham - was a life peerage and
she had no legitimate issue, so it died with her for two reasons.
William III - I know of no claimed illegitimates
James II -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descendants_of_James_II_of_England
lists 2 illegitimate sons -
James FitzJames, 1st Duke of Berwick was so created in 1687,
when his father was reigning as King of England
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_FitzJames,_1st_Duke_of_Berwick#History
says that he 'was attainted in 1695, and his British peerages forfeit.'
https://groups.google.com/group/alt.talk.royalty/msg/a3565bc31e1b190f?hl=en
(WAR) 'see the article by Geoffrey W. Iredell in *Genealogists' Magazine*,
vol. 20, no. 5 (March 1981), pp. 147-151. Iredell presents the evidence
that
Berwick was outlawed. Since attainder can occur as a result of either an
explicit Parliamentary Act or by outlawry, and Berwick's outlawry has never
been reversed, it would appear that the Berwick title has been extinguished
by attainder.'
If he had not been, then Jacobo FitzJames Stuart, born 1947, would be
the 12th duke to-day.
Henry FitzJames, 1st Duke of Albemarle was so created in 1696, after
his father had lost the English crown. He left no sons, so the title would
have died with him even if it had been created while his father was still
reigning.
Charles II - conferred peerages on 7 of his illegitimate sons
The Earl of Plymouth died without heirs in his father's lifetime
The Duke of Northumberland died without heirs.
The Duke of Monmouth and Buccleuch was attainted (but
his wife was created Duchess of Buccleuch, and her descendant holds
the title to-day).
The Duke of Southampton (who inherited the Dukedom of
Cleveland from his mother) passed both titles to his son, but they
became extinct at his death.
The Dukedoms of Grafton, St Albans and Richmond and Lennox
are extant.
Thoughts so far?
--
Treasure in Heaven is exempt from Death Duties.
Treasure in Heaven is exempt from Death Duties.