Ask EU: Broadband (again)

[BrritSki]

I know this was raised recently on umra, but I wasn't really paying
attention as I didn't think we were affected, but I guess quite a few
other people are looking into this with the letters dropping on doormats
notifying of increases in BT charges.

IIRC Plusnet was highly recommended. Is that correct and are people
still happy with them ? I am asking on behalf of SiL who lives in Bath
(where we arrived a couple of hours ago). They are on BT Broadband and
have a landline too, but as they both have mobiles (Vodafone and EE)
they don't really need a landline any more so are thinking of dropping
that and switching suppliers. I assume that whatever cable they have
coming in to their house at the moment is accessible by whatever
supplier they decide to go with ? Any advice welcome...

In other news we are on a bit of a UK tour at the moment: funeral of my
latex SiL in Calstock yesterday which was rather different - Janie was
the writer/director of the village pantos for many years and asked that
people came in panto costumes. In the packed church we were sat next to
a dog, there was the front end of a horse across the aisle, 2
cave-persons, 2 naughty nuns and various other strange outfits, but they
may have been normal dress - Calstock can be a bit alternative :) Much
sadness, but much love and laughter too for a very special lady.

Tomorrow we go to Cirencester to pick up our new Mitsubishi and then
we're back to Bedford for a few days with excursions to Pembury and the
Globe next week.

Finally, we have had an offer on our Italian house ! Not quite what we
wanted but we're happy with it and just need to work out the fine
details and timing etc. So advice above on broadband and other advice
of electricity companies etc. in the UK will be useful for us too soon
we hope

[Btms]

Post by BrritSki
I know this was raised recently on umra, but I wasn't really paying
attention as I didn't think we were affected, but I guess quite a few
other people are looking into this with the letters dropping on doormats
notifying of increases in BT charges.
IIRC Plusnet was highly recommended. Is that correct and are people
still happy with them ? I am asking on behalf of SiL who lives in Bath
(where we arrived a couple of hours ago). They are on BT Broadband and
have a landline too, but as they both have mobiles (Vodafone and EE)
they don't really need a landline any more so are thinking of dropping
that and switching suppliers. I assume that whatever cable they have
coming in to their house at the moment is accessible by whatever
supplier they decide to go with ? Any advice welcome...
In other news we are on a bit of a UK tour at the moment: funeral of my
latex SiL in Calstock yesterday which was rather different - Janie was
the writer/director of the village pantos for many years and asked that
people came in panto costumes. In the packed church we were sat next to
a dog, there was the front end of a horse across the aisle, 2
cave-persons, 2 naughty nuns and various other strange outfits, but they
may have been normal dress - Calstock can be a bit alternative :) Much
sadness, but much love and laughter too for a very special lady.
Tomorrow we go to Cirencester to pick up our new Mitsubishi and then
we're back to Bedford for a few days with excursions to Pembury and the
Globe next week.
Finally, we have had an offer on our Italian house ! Not quite what we
wanted but we're happy with it and just need to work out the fine
details and timing etc. So advice above on broadband and other advice
of electricity companies etc. in the UK will be useful for us too soon
we hope

Huge congratulations on the house sale. Must feel like you can move on
with your life which can’t happen if you are relocating such a distance.
Fungers (twatbili) crossed.

[BrritSki]

Post by Btms

Post by BrritSki
Finally, we have had an offer on our Italian house ! Not quite what we
wanted but we're happy with it and just need to work out the fine
details and timing etc. So advice above on broadband and other advice
of electricity companies etc. in the UK will be useful for us too soon
we hope

Huge congratulations on the house sale.

We'll believe it when it happens !

[Btms]

Post by BrritSki

Post by Btms

Post by BrritSki
Finally, we have had an offer on our Italian house ! Not quite what we
wanted but we're happy with it and just need to work out the fine
details and timing etc. So advice above on broadband and other advice
of electricity companies etc. in the UK will be useful for us too soon
we hope

Huge congratulations on the house sale.

We'll believe it when it happens !

Very wise but here’s hoping.

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by BrritSki
I know this was raised recently on umra, but I wasn't really paying
attention as I didn't think we were affected, but I guess quite a few
other people are looking into this with the letters dropping on doormats
notifying of increases in BT charges.
IIRC Plusnet was highly recommended. Is that correct and are people
still happy with them ?  I am asking on behalf of SiL who lives in Bath
(where we arrived a couple of hours ago). They are on BT Broadband and
have a landline too, but as they both have mobiles (Vodafone and EE)
they don't really need a landline any more so are thinking of dropping
that and switching suppliers. I assume that whatever cable they have
coming in to their house at the moment is accessible by whatever
supplier they decide to go with ?  Any advice welcome...

I'm with Plusnet and still pretty happy with them. I don't think they
are as good as they used to be but I get the impression that they are
probably still one of (possibly still the) best of the humanely priced
ISPs. I get the impression that their customer service isn't as
immaculate as it used to be (but, as my connection has been working
faultlessly for the past however long, I haven't needed to put it to the
test).

Email seems to be becoming a low priority for them. They do still offer
an inbox and webmail but the webmail is very basic and their support for
email problems doesn't seem brilliant. If sil uses some other email
provider though (such as gmail) this won't be an issue and may not be a
real problem even if he wants to use the Plusnet inbox.

As he's currently with BT, he would certainly be OK moving to Plusnet
(who are owned by BT) or most other ISPs. I think it would only be the
cable based companies which could be a problem.

Post by BrritSki
In other news we are on a bit of a UK tour at the moment: funeral of my
latex SiL in Calstock yesterday which was rather different - Janie was
the writer/director of the village pantos for many years and asked that
people came in panto costumes. In the packed church we were sat next to
a dog, there was the front end of a horse across the aisle, 2
cave-persons, 2 naughty nuns and various other strange outfits, but they
may have been normal dress - Calstock can be a bit alternative :)  Much
sadness, but much love and laughter too for a very special lady.

That sounds a splendid send off!

Post by BrritSki
Tomorrow we go to Cirencester to pick up our new Mitsubishi and then
we're back to Bedford for a few days with excursions to Pembury and the
Globe next week.
Finally, we have had an offer on our Italian house !  Not quite what we
wanted but we're happy with it and just need to work out the fine
details and timing etc.  So advice above on broadband and other advice
of electricity companies etc. in the UK will be useful for us too soon
we hope

Congratulations on getting a buyer, I hope both the sale and the move go
smoothly.

[BrritSki]

Post by Serena Blanchflower
Congratulations on getting a buyer, I hope both the sale and the move go
smoothly.

Thanks for the advice. Yes, we hope it all goes smoothly too...

[John Ashby]

Post by BrritSki
I know this was raised recently on umra, but I wasn't really paying
attention as I didn't think we were affected, but I guess quite a few
other people are looking into this with the letters dropping on
doormats notifying of increases in BT charges.
IIRC Plusnet was highly recommended. Is that correct and are people
still happy with them ?  I am asking on behalf of SiL who lives in
Bath (where we arrived a couple of hours ago). They are on BT
Broadband and have a landline too, but as they both have mobiles
(Vodafone and EE) they don't really need a landline any more so are
thinking of dropping that and switching suppliers. I assume that
whatever cable they have coming in to their house at the moment is
accessible by whatever supplier they decide to go with ?  Any advice
welcome...

I'm with Plusnet and still pretty happy with them.  I don't think they
are as good as they used to be but I get the impression that they are
probably still one of (possibly still the) best of the humanely priced
ISPs.  I get the impression that their customer service isn't as
immaculate as it used to be (but, as my connection has been working
faultlessly for the past however long, I haven't needed to put it to the
test).

I recently left Plusnet for EE. When I joined Plusnet it took them two
months to sort out taking over the broadband, although they took on the
line rental almost immediately. This meant that the contracts (for which
I had paid up front) were out of sync. This in turn caused difficulties
when the introductory periods ran out. Added to that they failed to set
up a direct debit, so every month towards the end they'd try and cut me off.

OH has two Plusnet accounts, one for her house and one for a rental
property, and there have been endless confusions with customer services
unable to distinguish between them.

One good thing is that we get better wifi from a Plusnet router than a
Sky one, so in the past we've had to reconfigure username and password.
It's a bit complicated since Sky don't show it on their routers but it
can be sniffed with wireshark.

I can't say I'm keen to return to Plusnet, but the options are reducing
rapidly. EE were a good deal with a couple of cashbacks at the time of
switching, but I do resent having to add yet another router to the pile
in my cupboard every 12 months. I wish they'd adopt some standard kit
and give clear instructions on how to configure it.

john

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <pi5mbm$cj6$***@dont-email.me>, John Ashby
<***@yahoo.com> writes:
[]

Post by John Ashby
I recently left Plusnet for EE. When I joined Plusnet it took them two
months to sort out taking over the broadband, although they took on the
line rental almost immediately. This meant that the contracts (for
which I had paid up front) were out of sync. This in turn caused
difficulties when the introductory periods ran out. Added to that they
failed to set up a direct debit, so every month towards the end they'd
try and cut me off.

Yes, watch out for that: I recently even had to set OfCom on PN for
making a false statement (about what OfCom rules obliged them to do
regarding contract lengths). Some legislation was passed a year or two
ago preventing misleading claims by ISPs about the cost of broadband
that didn't include the cost of line rental; PN (and for all I know
other ISPs) think they can get around these by dropping you into
contracts for line rental and for broadband that run out out of sync.,
e. g. by offering you one of them for 12 months and the other for 18.
(I'll explain the details of their fiddle if anyone wants, but won't
otherwise as it's somewhat complex.)
[]

Post by John Ashby
One good thing is that we get better wifi from a Plusnet router than a
Sky one, so in the past we've had to reconfigure username and password.
It's a bit complicated since Sky don't show it on their routers but it
can be sniffed with wireshark.
I can't say I'm keen to return to Plusnet, but the options are reducing
rapidly. EE were a good deal with a couple of cashbacks at the time of
switching, but I do resent having to add yet another router to the pile
in my cupboard every 12 months. I wish they'd adopt some standard kit
and give clear instructions on how to configure it.

I think most routers can be configured to work with most providers; they
just hold back on this fact, and in particular on what the settings are.
And most ISPs "offer" a "free" router when you sign up with them, but
charge a P&P charge on it that is more than it'd cost to get them from
China (or the entire cost of a cheap second-hand router). And I think
some of them don't let you opt out of the so-called "free" router,
either. (Both my routers - I have a spare in case one dies, though
neither ever have - are ones _I_ bought; my first one that I got when I
joined PlusNet [in the days when the one they supplied did _not_ do
wireless, it was that long ago!] failed after [of course] just over a
year.)

Post by John Ashby
john

John

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Serena Blanchflower

Post by BrritSki
I know this was raised recently on umra, but I wasn't really paying
attention as I didn't think we were affected, but I guess quite a few
other people are looking into this with the letters dropping on
doormats notifying of increases in BT charges.
IIRC Plusnet was highly recommended. Is that correct and are people
still happy with them ?  I am asking on behalf of SiL who lives in
Bath (where we arrived a couple of hours ago). They are on BT
Broadband and have a landline too, but as they both have mobiles
(Vodafone and EE) they don't really need a landline any more so are
thinking of dropping that and switching suppliers. I assume that
whatever cable they have coming in to their house at the moment is
accessible by whatever supplier they decide to go with ?  Any advice welcome...

If you get broadband-through-the-ordinary-'phone-line, known as ADSL and
will be quoted as a top speed of 3 to 16M:

1. You'll have to rent the line anyway (so as another has said, dig out
an old 'phone to connect to it, for use in emergency, such as power
cuts). There _are_ companies who'll do you a broadband contract without
a line rental, but they work out more expensive than the combined ones
anyway.
2. The twisted copper pair from your premises to either the exchange or
a cabinet will in the vast majority of cases be owned and maintained by
BT Wholesale, to whom the other companies have to go if it needs fixing.
3. Depending on which companies have equipment in the _exchange_, you
will have a variable amount of choice which company operates _that_. In
virtually all cases, all the ISPs will "provide" you a service, but in
some cases they're just selling you the use of someone else's equipment
(which _can_ still work out cheaper than going to that company). Various
sites will tell you whose equipment is in your exchange - I think
"SamKnows" is one such.

If you get broadband through cable or fibre, i. e. a speed of say 30M or
more, things are different, and I can't comment. And despite what many
seem to believe, you _don't_ need more than ADSL unless either you're
intending to download lots of HD video, or are likely to have multiple
high-bandwidth users in the household (and all _using_ the broadband) at
once.
Of mainstream providers (selling use of their own equipment _or_ someone
else's):
0. I think TalkTalk are generally the cheapest, apart from short-term
special offers. They're also the most complained-about. How much this is
swayed by them also being one of the biggest (most customers), I don't
know; on occasions where I've dealt with them on behalf of friends, I've
found their Indians very technically competent.

1. The next level up price-wise covers all the usual suspects - PlusNet,
BT, the Post Office, EE, and so on.

2. (From what I've read) Zen provide a sort of BMW/Mercedes level of
service, at a price; in particular they won't take any s**t from BT
Wholesale when a line fault needs to be fixed, and they treat customers
as intelligent beings.

3. (From what I've read) the Rolls-Royce/Cadillac ISP is Andrews and
Arnold (A&A).

Post by Serena Blanchflower
I'm with Plusnet and still pretty happy with them. I don't think they
are as good as they used to be but I get the impression that they are
probably still one of (possibly still the) best of the humanely priced
ISPs. I get the impression that their customer service isn't as
immaculate as it used to be (but, as my connection has been working
faultlessly for the past however long, I haven't needed to put it to
the test).

I (username jpgilliver if you go with PN!) would agree: I feel their
service and honesty has deteriorated, but then so has everybody's (well
I haven't tried Zen or A&A), and PN are still fair. (Note that their
helpdesk isn't there in the small hours, so if your connection dies
you've got to wait, but I think that applies to most of the others too.)

Post by Serena Blanchflower
Email seems to be becoming a low priority for them. They do still
offer an inbox and webmail but the webmail is very basic and their
support for email problems doesn't seem brilliant. If sil uses some
other email provider though (such as gmail) this won't be an issue and
may not be a real problem even if he wants to use the Plusnet inbox.

Agreed. From what I hear nobody would bother with PlusNet's webmail (if
you're using webmail use gmail etc. anyway, then it doesn't matter who
you're with), but their ordinary mail is pretty reliable; it's true that
many of their help staff don't know much about it, but on the whole it's
reliable enough that you don't need to discover that fact most of the
time.

Post by Serena Blanchflower
As he's currently with BT, he would certainly be OK moving to Plusnet
(who are owned by BT) or most other ISPs. I think it would only be the

[If you've ever had trouble with BT, don't let the fact that PlusNet are
owned by them put you off; PN seem to operate entirely separately.]

Post by Serena Blanchflower
cable based companies which could be a problem.

[]

[Sid Nuncius]

Post by BrritSki
I know this was raised recently on umra, but I wasn't really paying
attention as I didn't think we were affected, but I guess quite a few
other people are looking into this with the letters dropping on
doormats notifying of increases in BT charges.
IIRC Plusnet was highly recommended. Is that correct and are people
still happy with them ?  I am asking on behalf of SiL who lives in
Bath (where we arrived a couple of hours ago). They are on BT
Broadband and have a landline too, but as they both have mobiles
(Vodafone and EE) they don't really need a landline any more so are
thinking of dropping that and switching suppliers. I assume that
whatever cable they have coming in to their house at the moment is
accessible by whatever supplier they decide to go with ?  Any advice
welcome...

I'm with Plusnet and still pretty happy with them.  I don't think they
are as good as they used to be but I get the impression that they are
probably still one of (possibly still the) best of the humanely priced
ISPs.  I get the impression that their customer service isn't as
immaculate as it used to be (but, as my connection has been working
faultlessly for the past however long, I haven't needed to put it to the
test).

A rather belated <languid wave> to that. I'm still happy with them; I
renewed my contract in Feb and haven't had to use Customer Service
since, but they've always been good. The wait times on the phone seem
to be increasing as they get bigger, though.

FWIW, I switched to them for my mobile a/c too, because they'd been so
good for home phone and BB. Excellent (and very reasonable) so far.

[krw]

Post by BrritSki
Plusnet was highly recommended.

I am on my second stint with Plusnet and they have been helpful during
both stints. For phone line and broadband (FTTC) and with the initial
period having expired we are now paying (including a few calls) about
£42 per month.

In terms of the broadband service unless you are lucky you are still
dependent on what ever BT has to serve the property and we are so far
from the green cabinet that no-one else would provide a better internet
service. The line seems as stable at BT can manage - I reckon it drops
every couple of days but that is dependent on location.

Plusnet will not re-offer existing customers the new customer discount
hence the relatively high price I am currently paying. I have no wish
ever to return to BT after my falling out with them. Virgin don't have
cables here. Talk Talk service is allegedly better than it used to be
... which might not be saying a lot. Any other provider is likely to be
more expensive. Most of the interesting secondary providers (eg Tesco
and so on) have left the market.

Hope that helps and your return to our beknighted country is everything
you might want (apart from the lack of sun, olive oil, wine and we know
the Italians spend their lives eating bread cheese and ham; the first
and last of those three will not be of the same quality here! The
cheese will be better.

[BrritSki]

Post by krw
Hope that helps and your return to our beknighted country is everything
you might want (apart from the lack of sun, olive oil, wine and we know
the Italians spend their lives eating bread cheese and ham; the first
and last of those three will not be of the same quality here!  The
cheese will be better.

Thanks for the broadband advice.

We will still be spending several months a year in Italy and hope to be
able to buy a small place with no garden to maintain in the winter if
the sale goes through ad we find somewhere reasonable near Bedford. If
not we'll rent somewhere instead ! So the good life foods will still be
available, but without any effort on our part to provide them :)

[Penny]

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:58:04 +0100, krw <***@whitnet.uk> scrawled in the
dust...

Post by krw

Post by BrritSki
Plusnet was highly recommended.

I'm still happy with Plusnet but, like Serena, have had no recent problems
so can't vouch for their customer service (I'd heard some bad things too).
A big plus for me is their usenet server - they also have a responsive
person on their customer-service newsgroup.

Post by krw
I am on my second stint with Plusnet and they have been helpful during
both stints. For phone line and broadband (FTTC) and with the initial
period having expired we are now paying (including a few calls) about
£42 per month.

I have 'anytime' free phone calls (not free to mobiles which I find
annoying) currently costing £33.72 per month - I didn't pay the line rental
up front this year but there's a discount if you do. I decided against the
extra money for fibre to the box cos it's a long way from my house.

Post by krw
Plusnet will not re-offer existing customers the new customer discount
hence the relatively high price I am currently paying.

D#2 swaps every year in order to get whatever new customer offers are
around (which annoys me as Plusnet to Plusnet calls are free - and I can't
read umra when visiting). I think some companies have 18 month contracts
now to discourage this sort of behaviour and some only run the intro offer
for 3 months so some sums necessary to pick the best buy.

Companies I'd avoid include BT and Talk Talk - though my view on Talk Talk
is based entirely on hearsay.

[Serena Blanchflower]

They are on BT Broadband and have a landline too, but as they both have
mobiles (Vodafone and EE) they don't really need a landline any more so
are thinking of dropping that and switching suppliers.

I'd meant to add a comment to say that, with Plusnet (and, I think most
ISPs, at least those who use the BT lines) you will get a landline, and
have to pay line rental, even if you don't want to use it. I would
suggest getting a cheap, corded phone to connect to it, if only for
emergency use.

[LFS]

Post by BrritSki
I know this was raised recently on umra, but I wasn't really paying
attention as I didn't think we were affected, but I guess quite a few
other people are looking into this with the letters dropping on doormats
notifying of increases in BT charges.
IIRC Plusnet was highly recommended. Is that correct and are people
still happy with them ?  I am asking on behalf of SiL who lives in Bath
(where we arrived a couple of hours ago). They are on BT Broadband and
have a landline too, but as they both have mobiles (Vodafone and EE)
they don't really need a landline any more so are thinking of dropping
that and switching suppliers. I assume that whatever cable they have
coming in to their house at the moment is accessible by whatever
supplier they decide to go with ?  Any advice welcome...

I have been with EE since it was Freeserve which is a very long time
ago, it's been TMobile and Orange since then. Every time I have looked
into changing I have found that it would not be worth the bother. I can
only remember two occasions when there was a problem and both were dealt
with very efficiently by the speedy arrival of a new router. And they
have twice reduced the monthly charge without me asking.

[Kate B]

Post by BrritSki
I know this was raised recently on umra, but I wasn't really paying
attention as I didn't think we were affected, but I guess quite a few
other people are looking into this with the letters dropping on doormats
notifying of increases in BT charges.
IIRC Plusnet was highly recommended. Is that correct and are people
still happy with them ?  I am asking on behalf of SiL who lives in Bath
(where we arrived a couple of hours ago). They are on BT Broadband and
have a landline too, but as they both have mobiles (Vodafone and EE)
they don't really need a landline any more so are thinking of dropping
that and switching suppliers. I assume that whatever cable they have
coming in to their house at the moment is accessible by whatever
supplier they decide to go with ?  Any advice welcome...
In other news we are on a bit of a UK tour at the moment: funeral of my
latex SiL in Calstock yesterday which was rather different - Janie was
the writer/director of the village pantos for many years and asked that
people came in panto costumes. In the packed church we were sat next to
a dog, there was the front end of a horse across the aisle, 2
cave-persons, 2 naughty nuns and various other strange outfits, but they
may have been normal dress - Calstock can be a bit alternative :)  Much
sadness, but much love and laughter too for a very special lady.
Tomorrow we go to Cirencester to pick up our new Mitsubishi and then
we're back to Bedford for a few days with excursions to Pembury and the
Globe next week.
Finally, we have had an offer on our Italian house !  Not quite what we
wanted but we're happy with it and just need to work out the fine
details and timing etc.  So advice above on broadband and other advice
of electricity companies etc. in the UK will be useful for us too soon
we hope

Wow, a time of change!

If Virgin have nearby cable, consider them - they are expensive but
rocksolid and very fast. We also have a TiVo machine and their basic TV
package, which is frankly daylight robbery, but we now have so many good
things saved on the TiVo that we will have to manage our departure very
carefully :)

Vodafone apparently do broadband only packages but I don't know anyone
who has one.

[SODAM]

<snip>
Finally, we have had an offer on our Italian house ! Not quite what we
wanted but we're happy with it and just need to work out the fine
details and timing etc. So advice above on broadband and other advice
of electricity companies etc. in the UK will be useful for us too soon
we hope

Here’s hoping all goes smoothly for you. I’m a little envious, as I have
been trying to sell my place abroad (where I’m currently staying ) for
three years.

I was with Plusnet for a year and found them apparently cheap but not
satisfactory. The line kept dropping or wouldn’t connect and, despite being
a low user, I often went over the limit and was charged extra. Currently,
my supplier is Origins Broadband. I paid £200 up front for a year and get a
bill for umbrella of £2 -4 per month. This buys unlimited broadband and
landline rental but no calls. Mobile takes care of those. Can’t comment on
customer service, as it has never been required. Contract due for renewal
this month.

[BrritSki]

Post by SODAM

<snip>
Finally, we have had an offer on our Italian house ! Not quite what we
wanted but we're happy with it and just need to work out the fine
details and timing etc. So advice above on broadband and other advice
of electricity companies etc. in the UK will be useful for us too soon
we hope

Here’s hoping all goes smoothly for you. I’m a little envious, as I have
been trying to sell my place abroad (where I’m currently staying ) for
three years.

Well we haven't sold yet, so I'm not counting the polli [1].

We were told by an estate agent 3 years ago when we first thought about
selling that if we'd been selling 3 years earlier (i.e. 2012) she'd have
put it on the market at 3x but now she'd only put it on at 2x and we'd
be very lucky to get that. As it turned out, that's exactly what we have
accepted, although we started out higher.

Post by SODAM
I was with Plusnet for a year and found them apparently cheap but not
satisfactory. The line kept dropping or wouldn’t connect and, despite being
a low user, I often went over the limit and was charged extra. Currently,
my supplier is Origins Broadband. I paid £200 up front for a year and get a
bill for umbrella of £2 -4 per month. This buys unlimited broadband and
landline rental but no calls. Mobile takes care of those. Can’t comment on
customer service, as it has never been required. Contract due for renewal
this month.

Noted, but see earlier post about economies of BT.

[1] Thinks: is this the derivation of Polly parrot ?

[Btms]

Post by BrritSki
Noted, but see earlier post about economies of BT.

For us this is husbad’s aisle; I don’t like numbers. We use BT and I am
advised this is because they appear more expensive but have so many deals
one can do better than it seems at first. We travel around a bit and this
is the main reason for using BT because of the free wifi via their
hotspots.

Our leccy coy is now “Togethe” based in Scotland. Their prices are good
but their admin is hopeless. Many might get fed up with this but himself
likes numbers and is willing to keep it monitored.