Post by donald willisPost by clavigerPost by donald willis"Capt. Fritz asked Lt. Day to take pictures of the hulls.... Sims picked
up the empty hulls, and Lt. Day held an envelope open while Sims dropped
them in the envelope." --Sims Exhibit A.
Again, Fritz handled the shells before they could be photographed.... None
of those DPD Crime Lab photos shows the shells as they were found.
dcw
And if he did, so what? Maybe LHO picked them up, shook them like dice,
and tossed them back on the floor. Does that mean he gets a free, no fault
assassination because someone else touched them?
No, it means that you and I can say anything we want about the so-called
shells in evidence, because they were handled before they were
photographed.
No, that's your interpretation of the testimony. That's not what the
evidence necessarily shows. Please quote Mooney saying Fritz picked up the
shells before the photographs were taken.
His 11/23/63 typewritten report says "...Inside this cubby hole affair was
three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for
a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken. The
minute that I saw the expended shells on the floor, I hung my head out of
the half opened window and signaled to Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain
Will Fritz who were outside the building and advised them to send up the
Crime Lab Officers at once that I had located the area from which the
shots had been fired. At this time, Officers Webster, Victory, and
McCurley came over to this spot and we guarded this spot until Crime Lab
Officers got upstairs within a matter of a few minutes. We then turned
this area over to Captain Fritz and his officers for processing."
So he says he and other officers guarded the spot until Fritz and the
Crime Lab got there. Now what did J.C.Day, the principal Crime Lab officer
on duty that day, say about the shells?
== QUOTE ==
Mr. BELIN. Would you circle the three hulls on Exhibit 716? Do you know
whether or not Exhibit 716 and Exhibit 715 were taken before these hulls were
moved?
Mr. DAY. They were taken before anything was moved, to the best of my
knowledge. I was advised when I got there nothing had been moved.
Mr. BELIN. Who so advised you?
Mr. DAY. I believe it was Detective Sims standing there, but I could be
wrong about that.
== UNQUOTE ==
So Day is testifying the shells weren't moved and he was so told by one of
the officers guarding the area.
Now let's examine Mooney's testimony to the Warren Commission in a little
more detail. He testified:
== QUOTE ==
...And I told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that I had the
location spotted.
So I stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until Captain Will
Fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers. At that time,
of course, when I hollered, of course Officers Vickery and Webster, they
came across and later on several other deputies--I believe Officers
McCurley, A. D. McCurley, I believe he came over. Where he came from--they
was all en route up there, I assume.
== UNQUOTE ==
So I'm seeing Mooney saying the same thing as Day: That Fritz and "his
group of officers" (Day included) arrived at the same time. And Day
testified nothing was moved in his presence before the photos were taken,
and Day was told nothing was moved before that. And that's what Mooney
testified to, that he and other officers guarded that area and touched
nothing.
And in fact, Mooney said the shells in the photograph showed the shells as
he first saw them:
== QUOTE ==
Mr. BALL - Is that the empty shells you found?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Are they shown there?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Now, will you take this and encircle the shells?
Mr. MOONEY - All right.
Mr. BALL - Put a fairly good sized circle around each shell. *** That is
the way they were when you saw them, is that right?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir****. I assume that this possibly could have been the
first shot.
Mr. BALL - You cannot speculate about that?
Mr. MOONEY - You cannot speculate about that.
Mr. BALL - Those were empty shells?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
== UNQUOTE ==
Here's the pertinent part once more:
== QUOTE ==
Mr. BALL - ...*** That is the way they were when you saw them, is that
right?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir****.
== UNQUOTE ==
I am seeing nothing in Mooney's testimony where he says Fritz handled the
shells before the photos were taken. I am seeing nothing in Day's
testimony that Fritz handled the shells before the photos were taken.
Now, let's go to the testimony of Fritz, shall we?
Fritz says he cautioned the officers present to not touch anything
("preserve the evidence") and he left before the photos were taken.
== QUOTE ==
Mr. FRITZ. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I think
we went up probably to the top.
Different people would call me when they would find something that looked
like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from floor to
floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until someone called me
and told me they wanted me to come to the front window, the corner window,
they had found some empty cartridges.
Mr. BALL. That was on the sixth floor?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right; the sixth floor, corner window.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. I told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch anything
until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were
lying there and I left an officer assigned there to see that that was done,
and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took pictures, and dusted
the shelfs for prints.
Mr. BALL. Which officers, which officer did you leave there?
Mr. FRITZ. Carl Day was the man I talked to about taking pictures.
Mr. BALL. Day?
Mr. FRITZ. Lieutenant Day; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know whether he took the pictures or not?
Mr. FRITZ. I feel like he did but I don't know because I didn't stay to see
whether he could.
Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he took the pictures?
Mr. FRITZ. I went on searching the building. I just told them to preserve
that evidence and I went right ahead.
== UNQUOTE ==
Note that Fritz recalls it slightly differently, that he arrived shortly
before J.C. ("Carl") Day. This is a common failing, it's called having a
memory of the event. The mind is a not a tape-recorder, it doesn't record
in high fidelity. Differences in recollections are common in police work,
or even in everyday transactions.
You are trying to discard the evidence of the shells, which directly
implicate Oswald's rifle, and of course Oswald, in the assassination. You
are simply trying to get Oswald off the hook here. We've played that game
long enough.. You're inventive, but your arguments are meaningless. They
aren't based on attempting to reconcile the testimony of everyone
preesent. They are taking a couple of snippets of testimony, juxtaposing
them, and reaching a conclusion contrary to what the totality of the
evidence shows. We're aware of that game. It's worn out, and the
cardboard the game came in is falling apart. Mark Lane was a master at
that game. You're not in his class yet. But keep trying.
Post by donald willisThe shells as found may not have been the same shells as
displayed in the "nest".
Even accepting your interpretation *for the sake of argument* (it's wildly
wrong, but let's run with this silliness for a moment, shall we?), how'd
you get THERE?
Fritz was a part-time magician in Jack Ruby's night club, practiced at
sleight of hand, picked up three shells, palmed those, and threw down
three different ones which he had brought along for just this
eventuality?
And those somehow matched Oswald's rifle and established Oswald's weapon
was used in the assassination? Where did Fritz get three of Oswald's
shells from, to throw down in place of the original three, in your theory?
It's not like three of Oswald's shells were lying around all over the
sniper's nest just waiting to be picked up, right?
Oh, wait. That's right. They were. According to the evidence.
Post by donald willisThey may not have been the same number of
shells.
So Fritz picked up five and the witnesses mostly said three, so Fritz
threw down three? How's Fritz know the majority of the witnesses would say
three? Mooney vouched for the veracity of the photo showing the shells. He
didn't say anything about a different number of shells. Day said nobody
touched anything in his presence. Fritz said he gave a command not to
touch anything and left.
Even worse, for you, is that in this theory you advance, Fritz is part of
the conspiracy - actively swapping shells to frame Oswald. Yet he doesn't
go upstairs, swap out the shells first, and then call out he found the
shells? He waits until the real killer's shells are discovered, then he
goes up to the sixth floor, or maybe "on a different floor" (see below),
and in the presence of other officers, not only picks up the evidence
before it could be photographed, but actively swaps it out? That's your
final answer? You sure you don't want to poll the audience or phone a
friend?
Post by donald willisThey may have been found on a different floor.
Sigh. That's NOT what Mooney, Fritz, and Day testified to. Please stop
before you embarrass yourself with these bizarre speculations contrary to
all the evidence.
Oh, wait. Too late.
Post by donald willisYou can't use the
DPD photographs as evidence of the shells found in the depository, sorry,
Clav
No, the officers present at the time vouched for the accuracy of the
photos, including Mooney. Their testimony is evidence. The shells taken
into evidence is evidence. The photographs taken at the scene are
evidence.
Your interpretations of the testimony is NOT evidence. And I'm going -
once again - with the evidence.
Hank