U.S. sees democracy coming in post-Castro Cuba

First of all it is not up to the U.S. government to determine what kind
of government the Cuban people should have.
Secondly the U.S. does not really believe or care about democracy o
the self determination of other nations. This is evident in the fact
that the U.S. was the only government to embrace the cooup in Venezuela.
In Haiti the U.S. is attempting to create another puppet government that
oppresses the majority party.
In Algeria the U.S. never said a word when the military stopped the
democratic lections because the Islamic salvation party was going to win
by a landslide. In fact there is and never has been a trade embargo
emposed on the Algerian military government.
The U.S. has historically supported the most repressive anti
democratic regimes in the world, the Shah of Iran, Marcos in the
phillipines, Somoza in Nicaraguaand Pinniche in Chil where they
actively conspired to overthrow their 120+ year old democracy.
In short all this BS about democracy is propqaganda for internal
domestic purposes.

2005-10-01 11:48:00 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
First of all it is not up to the U.S. government to determine what kind
of government the Cuban people should have.

Nope.
It is up to the Cubans to do that in a free and fair manner.
That they can't at the moment because of the dictatorship.
In no way that excludes the US to post their assessment and hope.

Post by tony fernandez
Secondly the U.S. does not really believe or care about democracy o
the self determination of other nations.

Wrong.
After WW2 they left western Europe free to decide it's future.
It is the USSR that installed "remote controlled" dictatorships.
History (as so often) proves you wrong.

The communists arrive and stay. The US arrives and leaves.

PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-01 16:07:43 UTC

Wrong again PL the U.S. does create and maintain remote controlled
dictatorship. The U.S. is every bit as if not more repressive to South
and central America as the Soviets was to eastern Europe and that is the
reason that they hate the Cuban government so much. It is the only
government that has stood up to the U.S. and is an inspiration to others
(Venezuela) to stand up to the U.S. bully. In Haiti the U.S. supports
a reprssive government by remote control and is planning a show election
that will not allow the Lavala party to run heir candidate.
In Egypt the U.S. supports another dictatorship that they also
control by remote control. So all the evidence seems to contradict
your spin on the true situation.

2005-10-01 17:00:22 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
Wrong again PL

are you claiming the USA occupied Westren Eurrope like the USSR did in the
East?

Post by tony fernandez
the U.S. does create and maintain remote controlled
dictatorship.

I only see an end to dictatorships in Latin America (with the exception of
Cuba).
Those are the facts.

PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-01 20:19:01 UTC

PL doesn't want to see the truth, He doesn't denie that the U.S.
oppresses the LAtin American ountries, overthrowing the democratically
elected governments like in Guatemala, Chile and Haiti. The only
government to recognize the coupist who overthrew the Venezuelan
democracy. The U.S. has used terror and teaches torture in the school
of the America for its would be puppet dictators but instead PL seeks to
focus on Europe and the former soviet Union. PL doesn't denie that the
U.S. used and continues to use the threat of gunboat diplomacy to
subjugate the people of south and central America. Today they threaten
the popular and deocratically elected government of Venezuela.
They seek to set up a puppet government in Iraq and commit all kinds
of trocities and crimes against humanity and still PL holds the U.S. up
as some kind of role model for humanity. that reminds me of the saying
" there is none so blind as he who ill not see".

2005-10-01 20:50:05 UTC

PL doesn't want to see the truth, (snip)

Nope. Tony.
I see the thruth.
I see freedom in Western Europe, never occupied as Eastern Europe was.
I see profound democratic changes all over Latin America except in Cuba.

PL

Barry Schier

2005-10-02 04:54:46 UTC

"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone (and wagers are being taken, in view of the announcement that the
troop level will change downwards while U.S. plans and hopes in the
region remain unchanged, when and if the United States will ever leave
Iraq and Afghanistan). The U.S. has 77+ military bases around the
world.

Although now favoring elections between Tweedledee and Tweedledum
instead of the Iron Heel, the U.S. government ran "remote controlled"
dictatorships -- from the Shah of Iran, to regimes in Latin America and
Central America (e.g., brutal CIA-installed rulers of post-coup Brazil,
post-coup Guatemala, Nicaragua's Somoza), and Africa (e.g., Congo's
Mobutu).

Of course, there are cases where the United States came and left --
AFTER the deaths of a couple million Vietnamese and 54,000+ U.S. GIs,
the U.S. left Indochina -- because of combination of gunfire directed
at its troops abroad and political fire being directed at its foreign
policy by its citizens at home in protest demonstrations of up to half
million people. The tale of Clark AFB in the Philippines, Culebra and
Vieques in the U.S. semicolony of Puerto Rico and others are stories of
protests forcing the U.S. to leave. But, most importantly, the U.S.
did leave Cuba -- when Fidel Castro (after co-leading a revolution
which ousted a U.S. puppet dictator) did what needed to be done,
providing a model that the peoples of the semicolonial world should
follow (and at the root of U.S. hatred for the Cuban Revolution)
nationalizing holdings of the Yankees --- down to the nails of their
boots. One exception: It has been OVER A CENTURY that the United
States came into -- and NEVER LEFT -- Guatanamo Bay, which is
U.S.-occupied CUBAN territory; however, PL (qua apologist for U.S.
imperialism, albeit only as an honorary member of Washington's Little
Havana cheerleading section since he is a Belgian national) writes with
a straight face that "The US arrives and leaves."

Imperialism's heyday was over a century ago! U.S. out of Iraq,
Afghanistan, S. Korea, etc. NOW!!

-- Barry Schier

Post by tony fernandez
First of all it is not up to the U.S. government to determine what kind
of government the Cuban people should have.

Nope.
It is up to the Cubans to do that in a free and fair manner.
That they can't at the moment because of the dictatorship.
In no way that excludes the US to post their assessment and hope.

Post by tony fernandez
Secondly the U.S. does not really believe or care about democracy o
the self determination of other nations.

Wrong.
After WW2 they left western Europe free to decide it's future.
It is the USSR that installed "remote controlled" dictatorships.
History (as so often) proves you wrong.
The communists arrive and stay. The US arrives and leaves.
PL

krp !

2005-10-02 09:52:03 UTC

self proclaimed Marxist

Post by Barry Schier
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone (and wagers are being taken, in view of the announcement that the
troop level will change downwards while U.S. plans and hopes in the
region remain unchanged, when and if the United States will ever leave
Iraq and Afghanistan). The U.S. has 77+ military bases around the
world.
Although now favoring elections between Tweedledee and Tweedledum
instead of the Iron Heel, the U.S. government ran "remote controlled"
dictatorships -- from the Shah of Iran, to regimes in Latin America and
Central America (e.g., brutal CIA-installed rulers of post-coup Brazil,
post-coup Guatemala, Nicaragua's Somoza), and Africa (e.g., Congo's
Mobutu).
Of course, there are cases where the United States came and left --
AFTER the deaths of a couple million Vietnamese and 54,000+ U.S. GIs,
the U.S. left Indochina -- because of combination of gunfire directed
at its troops abroad and political fire being directed at its foreign
policy by its citizens at home in protest demonstrations of up to half
million people. The tale of Clark AFB in the Philippines, Culebra and
Vieques in the U.S. semicolony of Puerto Rico and others are stories of
protests forcing the U.S. to leave. But, most importantly, the U.S.
did leave Cuba -- when Fidel Castro (after co-leading a revolution
which ousted a U.S. puppet dictator) did what needed to be done,
providing a model that the peoples of the semicolonial world should
follow (and at the root of U.S. hatred for the Cuban Revolution)
nationalizing holdings of the Yankees --- down to the nails of their
boots. One exception: It has been OVER A CENTURY that the United
States came into -- and NEVER LEFT -- Guatanamo Bay, which is
U.S.-occupied CUBAN territory; however, PL (qua apologist for U.S.
imperialism, albeit only as an honorary member of Washington's Little
Havana cheerleading section since he is a Belgian national) writes with
a straight face that "The US arrives and leaves."
Imperialism's heyday was over a century ago! U.S. out of Iraq,
Afghanistan, S. Korea, etc. NOW!!

Afghanistan has been neutralized as a terrorist base. But why not admit
the Communist role in Afghanistan and its defeat there? No you are not up
to that level of honesty are you? Why not admit that Iraq was a client state
of the USSR under Hussein?

Dan Christensen

2005-10-03 04:42:54 UTC

Post by krp !
self proclaimed Marxist

Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely circulated
photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't
matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he looked out for US
"interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

krp !

2005-10-03 14:26:51 UTC

BAGHDAD DANNY

Afghanistan has been neutralized as a terrorist base. But why not
admit the Communist role in Afghanistan and its defeat there? No you are
not up to that level of honesty are you? Why not admit that Iraq was a
client state of the USSR under Hussein?

Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely circulated
photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't
matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he looked out for
US "interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.

NO you are full of shit again Comrade. During the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis
were given minor help to avert catastrophe, being overrun by a FANATIC
Islamic terrorist state. Never close to them at all. BUT let's note that
while they were SLEEPING WITH the Soviets torture was the rule of the day.
And during that time under the EYES of their Communist buddies ...........
We now see almost half a million so far from mass graves. Let us also NOTE
that while there was a formal meeting (photo shaking hands - diplomatic
necessity) Shall we refer to Soviet leaders shaking hands with Adolph
Hitler? How about Fidel shaking hands with POL POT? Not to mention the
North Korean dictators. The FACT is that the U.S. REFUSED to provide
weapons to Hussein's Iraq. Merely gave some "loan guarantees" so they could
buy SOVIET WEAPONS..................................

Dan Christensen

2005-10-03 15:59:48 UTC

Post by krp !
BAGHDAD DANNY

Afghanistan has been neutralized as a terrorist base. But why not
admit the Communist role in Afghanistan and its defeat there? No you
are not up to that level of honesty are you? Why not admit that Iraq was
a client state of the USSR under Hussein?

Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely circulated
photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't
matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he looked out for
US "interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

krp !

2005-10-04 00:56:17 UTC

BAGHDAD DAN

Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were best
buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making nicey-nicey.)
It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then, as long as he
looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those
pesky Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary, not
even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft. ALL of
the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word "ALL" means
Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST were Soviet but they
also had some French and German made gunships and helicopters used to spray
chemicals on people. We could go to the TANKS...................... ALL of
them Soviet............... We could go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet.
AK-47's RPG's, the like. And honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD
missiles were NOT American built! Got anything that proves otherwise
bullshitter?

Dan Christensen

2005-10-04 02:05:24 UTC

Post by krp !
BAGHDAD DAN

Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were
best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then, as
long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing and
gassing those pesky Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary, not
even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft. ALL of
the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word "ALL" means
Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST were Soviet but
they also had some French and German made gunships and helicopters used to
spray chemicals on people. We could go to the TANKS......................
ALL of them Soviet............... We could go to munitions.......... ALL
Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And honeybuns, last time *I* checked the
SCUD missiles were NOT American built! Got anything that proves otherwise
bullshitter?

Sorry, Kenny, but we will need something a little more than this. Ask the
kid next door to show you how to use Google, and do your homework. Remember,
you are trying to prove that "during the war with Iran when it appeared Iraq
was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given
minor help to avert catastrophe." There's a good lad. Now run along!

Brace yourselves, folks; I smell yet another Kennykins Whopper on the grill!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

krp !

2005-10-04 12:48:16 UTC

Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were
best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then, as
long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing and
gassing those pesky Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary,
not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft. ALL
of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word "ALL"
means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST were Soviet
but they also had some French and German made gunships and helicopters
used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to the
TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We could go
to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And
honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American
built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?

What do you need?

Let's see

http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/airforce.htm

As you BULLSHIT so magnificently Danny boy..... Chew on this COMPLETE LIST
of the Iraqi Air Force...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment.htm

If you note from the chart.................... 100% of their hardware were
SOVIET built! 100% Danny Boy! Know what 100% is?

Do I NEED to post the SAME types of charts for the Tanks etc?

What the U.S. Gave Iraq was some "loan guarantees" so they could buy more
Soviet WAR gear! Which was seen as preferable to Iraq LOSING and Iraq also
being under a RADICAL TERRORIST rule. Sometimes you have to help one bad
guy against a worse bad guy. You have to hold your nose and go with the
lesser of TWO EVILS....

But it is interesting is that at that point BOTH SIDES were Soviet
(COMMUNIST) client states.

Dan Christensen

2005-10-04 20:31:01 UTC

Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were
best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then,
as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing
and gassing those pesky Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary,
not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft. ALL
of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word "ALL"
means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST were Soviet
but they also had some French and German made gunships and helicopters
used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to the
TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We could
go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And
honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American
built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?

Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a lot
of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it appeared
Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given
minor help to avert catastrophe."

Do keep trying though.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

2005-10-05 00:10:28 UTC

email this print this reprint or license this
Posted on Tue, Oct. 04, 2005

M O R E N E W S F R O M
. Financial Services

Construction jobs spur Florida's job growth, report says

BY MATTHEW HAGGMAN

***@herald.com

Florida's galloping economy has accounted for one-fifth of all new
jobs added nationally since 2001, when the last recession ended, according
to a Tuesday report by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.

The big driver of the job gains in Florida: residential construction.

The housing boom in the state, which has resulted in cranes sprouting
up across South Florida and new homes dotting vast swaths of formerly vacant
land, comprised a quarter of the new private-sector jobs in the state.

Florida has added 500,000 total jobs since 2001, according to the FDIC
report profiling the state's banking sector and its general economic
conditions. Nearly 400,000 of those new positions were in the private
sector.

But the report highlighted an ongoing and increasingly critical
problem. Florida is adding jobs, but not jobs paying wages that can buy a
median-price home in the state.

email this print this reprint or license this
--
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.html
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ForFreedomandJustice/
"Live-Free-or-Die" "...one nation UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST"
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm

http://www.memesolis.com/

http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html

Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were
best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then,
as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing
and gassing those pesky Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary,
not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft. ALL
of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word "ALL"
means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST were Soviet
but they also had some French and German made gunships and helicopters
used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to the
TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We could
go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And
honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American
built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?

tony fernandez

2005-10-07 00:55:47 UTC

Well if Floridas Construction jobs account for one fifth of all new jobs
added nationally then the situation is worse then the government
pretends it to be. Construction jobs are generally temporary and not
very high paying. The people who build the homes cannot afford to buy
them today in the booming real estate market. Even people who bought
their homes before the boom are beginning to see their " American
Dream " turn into a nightmare as the rise in their property tax takes a
bigger chunk of their income. People who rent property are also feeling
the squeeze as their landlord is also forced to raise the rent to deal
with their increase in property taxes.

krp !

2005-10-05 11:14:04 UTC

PROPAGANDA MINISTER

Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were
best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then,
as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing
and gassing those pesky Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary,
not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft. ALL
of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word "ALL"
means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST were
Soviet but they also had some French and German made gunships and
helicopters used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to the
TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We could
go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And
honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American
built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?

Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a lot
of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis
were given minor help to avert catastrophe."

Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under Hussein
was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were American? Now
let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?

1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the United
States..

and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a diplomatic
event!

THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war with
Iran.

I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO direct
American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The COMMUNIST Bloc.....
100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every last bullet was made in
COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to chew for a bit on some "CUBAN
military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?

Think you might want to change position here and tell us that Iraq had the
BEST democracy in the middle east? The BEST health care system? It was FREE
Danny!

You are so TOTALLY FULL OF SHIT!

Dan Christensen

2005-10-05 20:42:21 UTC

Post by krp !
PROPAGANDA MINISTER

Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime were
best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See widely
circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back then,
as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region, bombing
and gassing those pesky Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A LOW
LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant secretary,
not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft.
ALL of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word
"ALL" means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST
were Soviet but they also had some French and German made gunships and
helicopters used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to the
TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We could
go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And
honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American
built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?

Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a
lot of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."

Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under Hussein
was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were American? Now
let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?

The issue is that, as usual, you have no evidence to support your claims.
Put up or shut up, Kenny!

Post by krp !
1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the United
States..
and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a diplomatic
event!

It is well known that the US supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Only a
pathological liar like you, Kenny, would deny it.

Post by krp !
THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war with
Iran.
I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO
direct American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The COMMUNIST
Bloc..... 100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every last bullet was
made in COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to chew for a bit on some
"CUBAN military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?

Look harder, Kenny. You have nothing on the Soviet reaction to the war. All
you have baseless speculation. Do your homework and get back to us when you
have some FACTS. Until you do, do not expect a reply from me.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netco.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

krp !

2005-10-06 13:09:17 UTC

MINISTER OF MISINFORMATION

Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime
were best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See
widely circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back
then, as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region,
bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A
LOW LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant
secretary, not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft.
ALL of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word
"ALL" means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST
were Soviet but they also had some French and German made gunships
and helicopters used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to the
TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We
could go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like.
And honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT
American built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?

Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a
lot of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."

Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under
Hussein was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were
American? Now let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?

The issue is that, as usual, you have no evidence to support your claims.
Put up or shut up, Kenny!

Those sourced do PRECISELY THAT DANNY! You remind me of Baghdad Bob
SWEARING to the media at a presser that "ther are NO American Tanks in Iraq"
as an M-1-A-1 drive past in the background of the shot. Danny boy you ARE
funny as hell...........

Post by krp !
1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the
United States..
and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a diplomatic
event!

It is well known that the US supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Only a
pathological liar like you, Kenny, would deny it.

It is widely CLAIMED Danny - that doesn't make it TRUE... It wasn't.
100% of Iraq's military crap came from its COMMUNIST masters.

Look harder, Kenny. You have nothing on the Soviet reaction to the war.
All you have baseless speculation. Do your homework and get back to us
when you have some FACTS. Until you do, do not expect a reply from me.

Baseless? That they supplied Iraq with ALL their military aircraft?
Soviet aircraft, by the way, that were suffering great attrition against two
decade OLD American gear the Iranians had. BLOWN out of the sky Danny!
What did I PROVE.............. that 100% of the Iraqi air force were
COMMUNIST built gear. Not ONE American plane of ANY kind. That 100% of the
tanks etc were COMMUNIST made, not ONE American plane. That 100% of their
missiles came from COMMUNIST nations. NONE were American.

I did my homework now you just have to LIE YOUR ASS OFF - - AS USUAL! The
tactic of continuing the LIE in the face of OVERWHELMING contrary evidence
is amusing Danny. Which is why we now call you BAGHDAD DAN!

Dan Christensen

2005-10-06 21:41:00 UTC

Post by krp !
MINISTER OF MISINFORMATION

Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime
were best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong. (See
widely circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam making
nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed back
then, as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the region,
bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A
LOW LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant
secretary, not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft.
ALL of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the word
"ALL" means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different. MOST
were Soviet but they also had some French and German made gunships
and helicopters used to spray chemicals on people. We could go to
the TANKS...................... ALL of them Soviet............... We
could go to munitions.......... ALL Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like.
And honeybuns, last time *I* checked the SCUD missiles were NOT
American built! Got anything that proves otherwise bullshitter?

Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a
lot of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."

Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under
Hussein was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were
American? Now let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?

The issue is that, as usual, you have no evidence to support your claims.
Put up or shut up, Kenny!

Those sourced do PRECISELY THAT DANNY! You remind me of Baghdad Bob
SWEARING to the media at a presser that "ther are NO American Tanks in
Iraq" as an M-1-A-1 drive past in the background of the shot. Danny boy
you ARE funny as hell...........

Post by krp !
1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the
United States..
and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a diplomatic
event!

It is well known that the US supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Only a
pathological liar like you, Kenny, would deny it.

It is widely CLAIMED Danny - that doesn't make it TRUE... It wasn't.
100% of Iraq's military crap came from its COMMUNIST masters.

Post by krp !
THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war with
Iran.
I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO
direct American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The
COMMUNIST Bloc..... 100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every last
bullet was made in COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to chew for a
bit on some "CUBAN military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?

Look harder, Kenny. You have nothing on the Soviet reaction to the war.
All you have baseless speculation. Do your homework and get back to us
when you have some FACTS. Until you do, do not expect a reply from me.

Baseless? That they supplied Iraq with ALL their military aircraft?
Soviet aircraft, by the way, that were suffering great attrition against
two decade OLD American gear the Iranians had. BLOWN out of the sky
Danny! What did I PROVE.............. that 100% of the Iraqi air force
were COMMUNIST built gear. Not ONE American plane of ANY kind. That 100%
of the tanks etc were COMMUNIST made, not ONE American plane. That 100% of
their missiles came from COMMUNIST nations. NONE were American.

You have provided NO PROOF here of your claim that "during the war with Iran
when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There is no mention here
whatsover any sort of "Soviet guidance" from your sources. There is no
mention whatsoever of the Soviet reaction to the war.

Looks like you got burned again, Kennykins! You must be getting used to it
by now. Hee, hee, hee!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

+ krp!

2005-10-07 01:53:24 UTC

MINISTER OF MISINFORMATION

Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime
were best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong.
(See widely circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam
making nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed
back then, as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the
region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A
LOW LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant
secretary, not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting aircraft.
ALL of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know what the
word "ALL" means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is different.
MOST were Soviet but they also had some French and German made
gunships and helicopters used to spray chemicals on people. We
could go to the TANKS...................... ALL of them
Soviet............... We could go to munitions.......... ALL
Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And honeybuns, last time *I*
checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American built! Got anything
that proves otherwise bullshitter?

Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought a
lot of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing here
suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the
Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."

Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under
Hussein was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were
American? Now let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?

The issue is that, as usual, you have no evidence to support your
claims. Put up or shut up, Kenny!

Those sourced do PRECISELY THAT DANNY! You remind me of Baghdad Bob
SWEARING to the media at a presser that "ther are NO American Tanks in
Iraq" as an M-1-A-1 drive past in the background of the shot. Danny boy
you ARE funny as hell...........

Post by krp !
1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the
United States..
and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a diplomatic
event!

It is well known that the US supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Only a
pathological liar like you, Kenny, would deny it.

It is widely CLAIMED Danny - that doesn't make it TRUE... It wasn't.
100% of Iraq's military crap came from its COMMUNIST masters.

Post by krp !
THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war
with Iran.
I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO
direct American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The
COMMUNIST Bloc..... 100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every
last bullet was made in COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to chew
for a bit on some "CUBAN military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?

Look harder, Kenny. You have nothing on the Soviet reaction to the war.
All you have baseless speculation. Do your homework and get back to us
when you have some FACTS. Until you do, do not expect a reply from me.

Baseless? That they supplied Iraq with ALL their military aircraft?
Soviet aircraft, by the way, that were suffering great attrition against
two decade OLD American gear the Iranians had. BLOWN out of the sky
Danny! What did I PROVE.............. that 100% of the Iraqi air force
were COMMUNIST built gear. Not ONE American plane of ANY kind. That 100%
of the tanks etc were COMMUNIST made, not ONE American plane. That 100%
of their missiles came from COMMUNIST nations. NONE were American.

You have provided NO PROOF here of your claim that "during the war with
Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There is
no mention here whatsover any sort of "Soviet guidance" from your sources.
There is no mention whatsoever of the Soviet reaction to the war.
Looks like you got burned again, Kennykins! You must be getting used to it
by now. Hee, hee, hee!

Danny tell me. do you believe this insane shit you keep saying or is it
mental illness? Do you need me to document that Iraq was LOSING? Do I need
to prove that Iranian forced were within 100 miles of Baghdad? Here I was
answering YOUR rather preposterous claims that Iraq was a CLOSE ally of the
U.S. and the Americans were supplying them with Arms etc. Silly me, you
moved the goal posts again when I blew up that mountain of bullshit. HEY I'M
OVER HERE NOW! Need to have your ass kicked on that point too Danny?

ASS KICKING #2

http://www.geocities.com/iran_iraq_war/

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/iran_iraq_war/iran_iraq_war1.php

"Despite Iraqi success in causing major damage to exposed Iranian ammunition
and fuel dumps in the early days of the war, the Iranian air force prevailed
initially in the air war. One reason was that Iranian airplanes could carry
two or three times more bombs or rockets than their Iraqi counterparts.
Moreover, Iranian pilots demonstrated considerable expertise. For example,
the Iranian air force attacked Baghdad and key Iraqi air bases as early as
the first few weeks of the war, seeking to destroy supply and support
systems. The attack on Iraq's oil field complex and air base at Al Walid,
the base for T-22 and Il-28 bombers, was a well-coordinated assault. The
targets were more than 800 kilometers from Iran's closest air base at
Urumiyeh, so the F-4s had to refuel in midair for the mission. Iran's air
force relied on F-4s and F-5s for assaults and a few F-14s for
reconnaissance. Although Iran used its Maverick missiles effectively against
ground targets, lack of airplane spare parts forced Iran to substitute
helicopters for close air support. Helicopters served not only as gunships
and troop carriers but also as emergency supply transports. In the
mountainous area near Mehran, helicopters proved advantageous in finding and
destroying targets and maneuvering against antiaircraft guns or man-portable
missiles. During Operation Karbala Five and Operation Karbala Six, the
Iranians reportedly engaged in large-scale helicopter-borne operations on
the southern and central fronts, respectively. Chinooks and smaller Bell
helicopters, such as the Bell 214A, were escorted by Sea Cobra choppers."

In confronting the Iraqi air defense, Iran soon discovered that a low-flying
group of two, three, or four F-4s could hit targets almost anywhere in Iraq.
Iranian pilots overcame Iraqi SA-2 and SA-3 antiaircraft missiles, using
American tactics developed in Vietnam; they were less successful against
Iraqi SA-6s. Iran's Western-made air defense system seemed more effective
than Iraq's Soviet-made counterpart. Nevertheless, Iran experienced
difficulty in operating and maintaining Hawk, Rapier, and Tigercat missiles
and instead used antiaircraft guns and man-portable missiles. "

Now SHUT UP LITTLE BOY and go to your room. NO SUPPER FOR YOU TONIGHT!!!!
BAGHDAD DAN!

http://i-cias.com/e.o/iranirqw.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War

Dan Christensen

2005-10-08 05:31:06 UTC

Post by + krp!

Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime
were best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong.
(See widely circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and Saddam
making nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured or killed
back then, as long as he looked out for US "interests" in the
region, bombing and gassing those pesky Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event. A
LOW LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant
secretary, not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting
aircraft. ALL of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know
what the word "ALL" means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is
different. MOST were Soviet but they also had some French and
German made gunships and helicopters used to spray chemicals on
people. We could go to the TANKS...................... ALL of them
Soviet............... We could go to munitions.......... ALL
Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And honeybuns, last time *I*
checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American built! Got anything
that proves otherwise bullshitter?

Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought
a lot of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing
here suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when
it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance,
the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."

Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under
Hussein was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were
American? Now let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?

The issue is that, as usual, you have no evidence to support your
claims. Put up or shut up, Kenny!

Those sourced do PRECISELY THAT DANNY! You remind me of Baghdad Bob
SWEARING to the media at a presser that "ther are NO American Tanks in
Iraq" as an M-1-A-1 drive past in the background of the shot. Danny boy
you ARE funny as hell...........

Post by krp !
1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the
United States..
and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a
diplomatic event!

It is well known that the US supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Only
a pathological liar like you, Kenny, would deny it.

It is widely CLAIMED Danny - that doesn't make it TRUE... It wasn't.
100% of Iraq's military crap came from its COMMUNIST masters.

Post by krp !
THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war
with Iran.
I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO
direct American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The
COMMUNIST Bloc..... 100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every
last bullet was made in COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to
chew for a bit on some "CUBAN military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?

Look harder, Kenny. You have nothing on the Soviet reaction to the war.
All you have baseless speculation. Do your homework and get back to us
when you have some FACTS. Until you do, do not expect a reply from me.

Baseless? That they supplied Iraq with ALL their military aircraft?
Soviet aircraft, by the way, that were suffering great attrition against
two decade OLD American gear the Iranians had. BLOWN out of the sky
Danny! What did I PROVE.............. that 100% of the Iraqi air force
were COMMUNIST built gear. Not ONE American plane of ANY kind. That 100%
of the tanks etc were COMMUNIST made, not ONE American plane. That 100%
of their missiles came from COMMUNIST nations. NONE were American.

You have provided NO PROOF here of your claim that "during the war with
Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There
is no mention here whatsover any sort of "Soviet guidance" from your
sources. There is no mention whatsoever of the Soviet reaction to the
war.
Looks like you got burned again, Kennykins! You must be getting used to
it by now. Hee, hee, hee!

Danny tell me. do you believe this insane shit you keep saying or is it
mental illness? Do you need me to document that Iraq was LOSING?

We need you to document your claim that "during the war with Iran when it
appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance, the Iraqis
were given minor help to avert catastrophe." You have failed to do so and
have once again exposed yourself for the desperate liar that you are. Face
it, you got burned again, Kennykins!

Here's a little something else to chew on. Enjoy.

"Western support for Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war has clearly been
established. It is no secret that the Soviet Union, West Germany, France,
the United States, many western companies, and Britain provided military
support and even components of Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction program.
The role the United States played in the war against Iran however is not as
well known.

"After the revolution, with the Ayatollahs in power and levels of enmity
between Iran and the U.S. running high, early on during the Iran-Iraq war,
realpolitikers in Washington came to the conclusion that Saddam was the
lesser of the two evils, and hence efforts to support Iraq became the order
of the day, both during the long war with Iran and afterward. This led to
what later became known as the Iraq-gate scandals.

"Much of what Iraq received from the West, however, were not arms per se,
but so-called dual-use technology- mainframe computers, armored ambulances,
helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian uses as well
as military applications. It is now known that a vast network of companies,
based in the U.S. and elsewhere, fed Iraq's warring capabilities right up
until August 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#US-Iraqi_arms_transfers_in_the_war

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

+ krp!

2005-10-08 12:14:27 UTC

BAGHDAD DAN MINISTER OF MISINFORMATION

Post by + krp!

Post by Dan Christensen
Ummmmm.... Kenny, check your history. Saddam and the US regime
were best buds at one time. Back then, he could do no wrong.
(See widely circulated photo on internet of Rumsfeld and
Saddam making nicey-nicey.) It didn't matter who he tortured
or killed back then, as long as he looked out for US
"interests" in the region, bombing and gassing those pesky
Iranians.

Another Kennykins Whopper to go? Let's see some proof, Kenny.

All you have is a photo of a handshake at a diplomatic event.
A LOW LEVEL event. Rumsfeld was a nothing then. Not an assistant
secretary, not even an office manager.
As to military hardware . You can look at Jane's fighting
aircraft. ALL of the fixed wing planes were Soviet. Do you know
what the word "ALL" means Danny boy? Now the helicopters that is
different. MOST were Soviet but they also had some French and
German made gunships and helicopters used to spray chemicals on
people. We could go to the TANKS...................... ALL of
them Soviet............... We could go to munitions.......... ALL
Soviet. AK-47's RPG's, the like. And honeybuns, last time *I*
checked the SCUD missiles were NOT American built! Got anything
that proves otherwise bullshitter?

Sorry, Kenny, you will have to do better than this. Iraq also bought
a lot of equipment from France, Germany and China. There is nothing
here suggesting, as you claimed, that "during the war with Iran when
it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet guidance,
the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe."

Better than showing that 100% of Iraq's military hardware under
Hussein was Soviet? Better than showing that NONE of his arms were
American? Now let's do an INSTANT REPLAY here. What's the issue?

The issue is that, as usual, you have no evidence to support your
claims. Put up or shut up, Kenny!

Those sourced do PRECISELY THAT DANNY! You remind me of Baghdad Bob
SWEARING to the media at a presser that "ther are NO American Tanks in
Iraq" as an M-1-A-1 drive past in the background of the shot. Danny boy
you ARE funny as hell...........

Post by krp !
1. Your claim that Iraq was REALLY a U.S. Ally and supported by the
United States..
and as PROOF of your claim you cite a PHOTOGRAPH of then a LOW GRADE
government employee Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein at a
diplomatic event!

It is well known that the US supported Iraq in its war with Iran. Only
a pathological liar like you, Kenny, would deny it.

It is widely CLAIMED Danny - that doesn't make it TRUE... It
wasn't. 100% of Iraq's military crap came from its COMMUNIST masters.

Post by krp !
THAT - you claim is "PROOF" that the U.S. supported Iraq in its war
with Iran.
I - counter with several sources that DOCUMENT that Iraq received NO
direct American aid and that 100% of its Air Force was from The
COMMUNIST Bloc..... 100% Danny not 50% or even 90%...... 100% every
last bullet was made in COMMUNIST nations... Oh and Danny want to
chew for a bit on some "CUBAN military advisors" sent to aid Hussein?

Look harder, Kenny. You have nothing on the Soviet reaction to the
war. All you have baseless speculation. Do your homework and get back
to us when you have some FACTS. Until you do, do not expect a reply
from me.

Baseless? That they supplied Iraq with ALL their military aircraft?
Soviet aircraft, by the way, that were suffering great attrition
against two decade OLD American gear the Iranians had. BLOWN out of
the sky Danny! What did I PROVE.............. that 100% of the Iraqi
air force were COMMUNIST built gear. Not ONE American plane of ANY
kind. That 100% of the tanks etc were COMMUNIST made, not ONE American
plane. That 100% of their missiles came from COMMUNIST nations. NONE
were American.

You have provided NO PROOF here of your claim that "during the war with
Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe." There
is no mention here whatsover any sort of "Soviet guidance" from your
sources. There is no mention whatsoever of the Soviet reaction to the
war.
Looks like you got burned again, Kennykins! You must be getting used to
it by now. Hee, hee, hee!

Danny tell me. do you believe this insane shit you keep saying or is
it mental illness? Do you need me to document that Iraq was LOSING?

Danny the FACT that Iraq was losing is evidence by the FACT that Iran's
troops were within 100 miles of Baghdad INSIDE Iraq. The FACT that the U.S.
offerent only minimal help (loan gurantees and a few sattelite photos) is
also a FACT I have previously documented in this thread.

Post by Dan Christensen
Here's a little something else to chew on. Enjoy.
"Western support for Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war has clearly been
established. It is no secret that the Soviet Union, West Germany, France,
the United States, many western companies, and Britain provided military
support and even components of Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction program.
The role the United States played in the war against Iran however is not
as well known.

Because it didn't happen.

Post by Dan Christensen
"After the revolution, with the Ayatollahs in power and levels of enmity
between Iran and the U.S. running high, early on during the Iran-Iraq war,
realpolitikers in Washington came to the conclusion that Saddam was the
lesser of the two evils, and hence efforts to support Iraq became the
order of the day, both during the long war with Iran and afterward. This
led to what later became known as the Iraq-gate scandals.

TRYE - only as far as it goes.........

Post by Dan Christensen
"Much of what Iraq received from the West, however, were not arms per se,
but so-called dual-use technology- mainframe computers, armored
ambulances, helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian
uses as well as military applications. It is now known that a vast network
of companies, based in the U.S. and elsewhere, fed Iraq's warring
capabilities right up until August 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#US-Iraqi_arms_transfers_in_the_war

NOT even ONE American helicopter - they DID get some FRENCH and German
helicopters as I previously posted. Yes some American companies provided
ambulances (FORD).. Again I went down the OFFICIAL list of Armaments used
by Iraq, and NONE were American made. ALL were made in COMMUNIST Nations.
It is hilarious that YOU . . . COMRADE CHRISTENSEN would complain most
loudly about American involvement while YOUR SIDE was a million times more
involved. Supplied ALL the weapons...As has been proven.

CHEW ON THIS AGAIN BULLSHITTER!! From the source above"

"Iraq's army was primarily armed with weaponry it had purchased from the
Soviet Union and its satellites in the preceding decade. During the war, it
purchased billions of dollars worth of advanced equipment from the Soviets
and the French [2], as well as from the People's Republic of China, Egypt,
Germany, and other sources (including European facilities for making and/or
enhancing chemical weapons). Germany [3] along with other Western countries
(among them United Kingdom, France, Spain (Explosivos Alaveses), Italy and
the United States) provided Iraq with biological and chemical weapons
technology and the precursors to nuclear capabilities. Much of Iraq's
financial backing came from other Arab states, notably oil-rich Kuwait and
Saudi Arabia.
Iran's foreign supporters included Syria and Libya, through which it
obtained Scuds. It purchased weaponry from North Korea and the People's
Republic of China, notably the Silkworm antiship missile. Iran acquired
weapons and parts for its Shah-era US systems through covert arms
transactions from officials in the Reagan Administration, first indirectly
(possibly through Israel) and then directly. It was hoped Iran would, in
exchange, persuade several radical groups to release Western hostages,
though this did not result; proceeds from the sale were diverted to the
Nicaraguan Contras in what became known as the Iran-Contra Affair.

((NOTE the parts and weapons provided to Iran did NOT work. They got SCAMMED
by Oliver North!))

"Iraq's air force used Soviet weapons and reflected Soviet training,
although it expanded and upgraded its fleet considerably as the war
progressed. It conducted strategic bombing using Tupolev Tu-16 Badgers. Its
fighters included the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21, later supplemented by large
purchases of Sukhoi Su-22s and French Dassault Mirage F1s. It also deployed
the Anglo-French Aérospatiale Gazelle attack helicopter and the Exocet
antiship missile.[5]"

The FRENCH were supplying arms to Iraw until the DAY that Baghdad fell!
To the SECOND!

Now as to your "AMERICAN" involvement...

"The Iraq-gate scandal revealed that an Atlanta branch of Italy's largest
bank, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, relying partially on U.S.
taxpayer-guaranteed loans, funneled $5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989. In
August 1989, when FBI agents finally raided the Atlanta branch of BNL, the
branch manager, Christopher Drogoul, was charged with making unauthorized,
clandestine, and illegal loans to Iraq-some of which, according to his
indictment, were used to purchase arms and weapons technology."

HARDLY the United States government!

Dan Christensen

2005-10-10 03:23:06 UTC

" + krp!" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:DKO1f.1324$***@trnddc03...

[snip portions of Kenny's pathetic posting already debunked here, or too
lame to bother with]

Post by + krp!
Now as to your "AMERICAN" involvement...
"The Iraq-gate scandal revealed that an Atlanta branch of Italy's largest
bank, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, relying partially on U.S.
taxpayer-guaranteed loans, funneled $5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989.
In August 1989, when FBI agents finally raided the Atlanta branch of BNL,
the branch manager, Christopher Drogoul, was charged with making
unauthorized, clandestine, and illegal loans to Iraq-some of which,
according to his indictment, were used to purchase arms and weapons
technology."
HARDLY the United States government!

On the contrary, the US regime was in it up to their eyeballs -- from Reagan
to Clinton. See:

http://www.counterpunch.org/boles1010.html
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1992/h920519l.htm
http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/1993/11/pizzo.html
http://www.oilempire.us/saddam.html

And anyway, what has this got to do your original claim that, "during the
war with Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT Soviet
guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe?" Absolutely
nothing you post here points to any sort of "Soviet guidance." On the
contrary, the above articles point to US guidance, and its massive and
covert financing of the Iraqi war effort. Looks like you got burned again,
Kennykins!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

+ krp !

2005-10-10 13:52:34 UTC

COMRADE DAN MINISTER OF MISINFORMATION

Post by Dan Christensen
[snip portions of Kenny's pathetic posting already debunked here, or too
lame to bother with] TRANSLATION: Danny is going to bullshit overdrive.

On the contrary, the US regime was in it up to their eyeballs -- from

BULLSHIT!

Post by Dan Christensen
http://www.counterpunch.org/boles1010.html

ZERO credibility! Thge man quotes was a Lt. Colonel HARDY a HIGH RANKING
PENTAGON BRASS type or much in the "know." FAR LEFT Internet blog bullshit.

Post by Dan Christensen
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1992/h920519l.htm Lantos is a
certifiable whck job rehashing the same tired old bullshit kicked around
since 1987. BULLSHIT.
http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/1993/11/pizzo.html Interesting
that Mother Jones article, hostile as it is, supports what I said, that
the U.S. involvement was in loan GURANTTEE and NOT in supplying arms...
Too bad Danny you LOSE yet again!
http://www.oilempire.us/saddam.html Tell me Danny did you ejaculate in
your jeans gettign an acyal copy of Rumsfeld then a MINOR public official,
assistant secretary to the assistan secretray to the secretary of mops
pails and brooms? Depite what you rsource claims Danny - Rumsfeld was
NOT "secretary of defense in 1983!" Jesus man! That is scuah an
INCREDIBLE anti-war site (read as MARXIST HARDLINER SUPPORTED) it is
ludicroups and NOT at all credible. It offered NO SUPPORT for its claim
that the U.S. suppled "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION" to Hussein. Again the
INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIABLE FACT is that the U.S. provided ONLY some
sattelite photos, ONE Lt. Colonel who made a 2 day visit to "advise"
(explain the friggin sattelite photos) and some LOAN gurantees. The U.S.
did NOT supply even ONE BULLET. Like with the OIL FOR FOOD scandal
irresponsible American companies DID supply supplies used for making
chemical and biological weapons. THEY WERE ALSO EVENTUALLYPROESCUTED for
it Danny!
And anyway, what has this got to do your original claim that, "during the
war with Iran when it appeared Iraq was going to LOSE with the INEPT
Soviet guidance, the Iraqis were given minor help to avert catastrophe?"
Absolutely nothing you post here points to any sort of "Soviet guidance."
On the contrary, the above articles point to US guidance, and its massive
and covert financing of the Iraqi war effort. Looks like you got burned
again, Kennykins!

The FACT is that Iranian troops were deep inside Iraq, less than 100
miles from Baghdad! The Iraqis were a Soviet CLIENT STATE and their military
was being "ADVISED" by Soviet officers.. I would say that when the enemy is
in your territory, occupying almost 30% of your country, and within 100
miles of your capital, it is safe to say that the "ADVISE" you were getting
was not real good! Danny 100% of the military hardware Iraq had was SOVIET!
Do you REALLY want a source showing that there were Soviet Advisors in Iraq?
Danny why not cut your losses? Isn't your ass sore enough from the kicking??

You own sources largely verify what I have said.

2005-10-04 14:19:56 UTC

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Daniel

2005-10-05 12:01:40 UTC

Post by krp !
self proclaimed Marxist

Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?

krp !

2005-10-05 12:42:57 UTC

Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?

It is impossible to deal with Baghdad Dan. No matter what you show him
he has some rationalization to ignore it. Danny's SOLE experience is a trip
to Havana ONCE where he stayed in the BAR of the resort hotel. He spoke to
the Cuban Bar Tender and the Cuban MAID and now considered himself an EXPERT
on all things about Cuba. No matter what evidence you have he finds some
excuse for denying it. That's just our Danny. Here he wants to make the
point that the U.S. was Hussein's ally... He has, after all, a PHOTO of
Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein 25 years ago.. To Danny that is all the
proof HE needs of the sinister relationship between Hussein and the U.S. He
can IGNORE that ALL of the Iraqi Air Force were Soviet. That ALL of its
tanks and other munitions were Soviet. That ALL of its missiles were from
Communist bloc nations. He can bury you in rationalizations.

He and those other Canadian Marxists we have become infected with
lately. All of them with NO or almost NO connections to Cuba but quite
willing to claim they know FAR MORE about Cuba than people IN or from Cuba.
Unabashed bullshitters! The SAD part is they believe in their own delusions.

Dan Christensen

2005-10-06 03:34:21 UTC

Post by krp !
self proclaimed Marxist

Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?

And Iran had US made jets and helicopters -- F4's, F5's, F14's, Cobras etc.
What's your point? That the US must have backed Iran??? Guess again.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

krp!

2005-10-06 13:59:44 UTC

Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?

And Iran had US made jets and helicopters -- F4's, F5's, F14's, Cobras
etc. What's your point? That the US must have backed Iran??? Guess again.

Yes they did. Almost 20 years old sold to the former government! The United
States did NOT sell even one BULLET to EITHER side of that war!

HOWEVER your COMMUNIST nations DID to BOTH SIDES! Aren't ya just busting
with PRIDE on that Danny?

Dan Christensen

2005-10-06 03:56:28 UTC

Post by krp !
self proclaimed Marxist

Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?

And Iran had US made jets and helicopters -- F4's, F5's, F14's, Cobras
etc. -- leftover from the previous regime.

France, Germany, China, the US also supplied Iraq with high-tech weaponry
including chemical and biological weapons.

What's your point?

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

krp!

2005-10-06 14:01:04 UTC

Post by Daniel
Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?

The United States did NOT supply ANY "high tech weaponry"
PERIOD................... NOR chemical or biological weapons.
The U.S. DID supply Iraq an ANTIDOTE to Anthrax via the CDC............

Dan Christensen

2005-10-06 21:45:53 UTC

Post by krp!

Post by Daniel
Really? How many MIG's are made in the US? How many AK-47's? How much
of the Iraqi military equipment is made in the USA?

The United States did NOT supply ANY "high tech weaponry"
PERIOD................... NOR chemical or biological weapons.
The U.S. DID supply Iraq an ANTIDOTE to Anthrax via the CDC............

"During the war, [Iraq] purchased billions of dollars worth of advanced
equipment from the Soviets and the French, as well as from the People's
Republic of China, Egypt, Germany, and other sources (including European
facilities for making and/or enhancing chemical weapons). Germany along with
other Western countries (among them United Kingdom, France, Spain
(Explosivos Alaveses), Italy and the United States) provided Iraq with
biological and chemical weapons technology and the precursors to nuclear
capabilities. Much of Iraq's financial backing came from other Arab states,
notably oil-rich Kuwait and Saudi Arabia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#Arming_the_combatants

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

+ krp!

2005-10-07 02:20:07 UTC

CRAZY BAGHDAD DAN

Post by krp!
The United States did NOT supply ANY "high tech weaponry"
PERIOD................... NOR chemical or biological weapons.
The U.S. DID supply Iraq an ANTIDOTE to Anthrax via the CDC............

"During the war, [Iraq] purchased billions of dollars worth of advanced
equipment from the Soviets and the French, as well as from the People's
Republic of China, Egypt, Germany, and other sources (including European
facilities for making and/or enhancing chemical weapons). Germany along
with other Western countries (among them United Kingdom, France, Spain
(Explosivos Alaveses), Italy and the United States) provided Iraq with
biological and chemical weapons technology and the precursors to nuclear
capabilities. Much of Iraq's financial backing came from other Arab
states, notably oil-rich Kuwait and Saudi Arabia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#Arming_the_combatants

If you look at LARGER articles on the issue you will see that the U.S.
through the CDC supplied Iraq qith some strains of ANTI-TOXIN for ANTHRAX.
NOT weaponized biological agents as some PROPAGANDA sources falsely
reported. FRANCE attempted to supply Iraq with nuclear weapons technology.
That is what the Israelis blew up. NONE of that came from the United States.
PERIOD! YOU LOSE AGAIN DANNY! The U.S. did NOT supply ANY weapons........

Dan Christensen

2005-10-08 05:19:53 UTC

Post by + krp!
CRAZY BAGHDAD DAN

"During the war, [Iraq] purchased billions of dollars worth of advanced
equipment from the Soviets and the French, as well as from the People's
Republic of China, Egypt, Germany, and other sources (including European
facilities for making and/or enhancing chemical weapons). Germany along
with other Western countries (among them United Kingdom, France, Spain
(Explosivos Alaveses), Italy and the United States) provided Iraq with
biological and chemical weapons technology and the precursors to nuclear
capabilities. Much of Iraq's financial backing came from other Arab
states, notably oil-rich Kuwait and Saudi Arabia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#Arming_the_combatants

If you look at LARGER articles on the issue you will see that the U.S.
through the CDC supplied Iraq qith some strains of ANTI-TOXIN for ANTHRAX.

The above article is from a highly regarded online encyclopedia.

Post by + krp!
NOT weaponized biological agents as some PROPAGANDA sources falsely
reported. FRANCE attempted to supply Iraq with nuclear weapons technology.

Speaking of propaganda, let's see YOUR sources, Kenny.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

+ krp !

2005-10-08 12:29:33 UTC

BAGHDAD DAN MINISTER OF MISINFORMATION

Post by + krp!

"During the war, [Iraq] purchased billions of dollars worth of advanced
equipment from the Soviets and the French, as well as from the People's
Republic of China, Egypt, Germany, and other sources (including European
facilities for making and/or enhancing chemical weapons). Germany along
with other Western countries (among them United Kingdom, France, Spain
(Explosivos Alaveses), Italy and the United States) provided Iraq with
biological and chemical weapons technology and the precursors to nuclear
capabilities. Much of Iraq's financial backing came from other Arab
states, notably oil-rich Kuwait and Saudi Arabia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#Arming_the_combatants

If you look at LARGER articles on the issue you will see that the U.S.
through the CDC supplied Iraq qith some strains of ANTI-TOXIN for ANTHRAX.

The above article is from a highly regarded online encyclopedia.

Yes it is, remember *I* first cited it. READ IT moron! You will see that
the CDC supplied anti-toxins for anthrax, the article explains that other
laboratories (Private companies) supplied Iraq with LIVE pathogens. NOT the
CDC. Read it LAL Danny not just PARTS as usual.

Post by + krp!
NOT weaponized biological agents as some PROPAGANDA sources falsely
reported. FRANCE attempted to supply Iraq with nuclear weapons technology.

Speaking of propaganda, let's see YOUR sources, Kenny.

I provided them and you MISQUOTED ONE.......... YOU LOSE AGAIN COMRADE
CHRISTENSEN!

2005-10-02 09:59:48 UTC

Post by Barry Schier
"The US arrives and leaves." 100+ occupations in the last century
alone

(snip)

and they left.
Your communist friends arrived and stayed.
That sets them apart.
After WW2 the Soviet Union militarily occupied Eastern Europe and imposed
it's system allow no freedom.
They set up the Marshall plan, ....
For the Soviet Union (you example as self confessed communist) it was a war
of conquest. For the US it was a war of liberation.
Since the fall of the Berlin wall and the end of the cold war (a time little
fact Barry seems to want to overlook) the world situation has changed
dramatically.
For the first time we see military intervention with a truly humanitarian
purpose (Kosovo, ex-Yugoslavia, ...).
Afghanistan is an a-typical war of defense. If an enemy attacks you, you hit
at its bases. If that enemy is not a state but an organization under it's
patronage and sheltered by a state that state thereby opens itself up to
retaliation. If certain interest groups decide to wage a war by proxy it is
no more than rational and legitimate to attack those that wage the war by
proxy. The more tenuous one, but incorrect information (due largely to an
refusal to cooperate which led to major fears and suspicions) and continued
abuses led to a war that (once those that use this war for other aims) will
lead to a marked improvement in the life of the ordinary Iraqi which is its
redeeming feature. Even those that attack the US led intervention have to
admit that Saddam was probably the worst situation possible. They resent the
solution chosen, not the aim of the operation. Where they fail is to show
what the real alternative was taking in to account the interest of the Iraqi
people.
As far as Cuba is concerned: I do not support a military intervention. I
don't think it is needed. The Cuban people suffers. There is hunger,
apartheid, abuse of human rights, ... and all that is enough to make anyone
that has the interests of the Cuban people at heart are filled with
despair, but - as the article states - there is an alternative in view:
Castro's death and the new situation created when the old dictator dies.
Raul - heir apparent in the Castro dynasty - does not have any prestige
within the regime nor with the people. His rule will fail or will end in
bloodshed (a major risk). The current elite on the other hand is just
waiting for an opportunity to "settle things". After Castro Cuba will change
for the better (maybe after a tumultuous period). Castro's biggest failure
will be that he didn't know when to end the suffering or that he was too
proud and stubborn to do so.
Pinochet left. Castro will die in the saddle. But once he is dead the horse
will bolt. Castro is ensuring that his place in history will be that of a
reviled dictator that only succeeded in wasting money and leaving a
hopelessly divided country.
The transition to democracy will be hard and Cuba will need good leaders.
The problem is that very few are on the horizon due to the repression
against dissidents and the communist system that promotes the meek and the
corrupt over the critical and motivated.
But democracy will come to Cuba. It is up to God it seems to decide when.

PL

Post by Barry Schier

Post by tony fernandez
First of all it is not up to the U.S. government to determine what kind
of government the Cuban people should have.

Nope.
It is up to the Cubans to do that in a free and fair manner.
That they can't at the moment because of the dictatorship.
In no way that excludes the US to post their assessment and hope.

Post by tony fernandez
Secondly the U.S. does not really believe or care about democracy o
the self determination of other nations.

Wrong.
After WW2 they left western Europe free to decide it's future.
It is the USSR that installed "remote controlled" dictatorships.
History (as so often) proves you wrong.
The communists arrive and stay. The US arrives and leaves.
PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-02 13:28:38 UTC

Like I said before the U.S. does not give a hoot about democracy. Their
attack against Iraq was just a ploy to get control of the worlds second
biggest oil reserve. The U.S. overthrows more governments then the
former soviet union ever did. It has invaded more countries, started
more wars and continues to occupy more contries then the soviets ever
did. Still PL wants to pretend that their oppression of Latin America
is somehow OK!

2005-10-02 13:56:37 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
Like I said before the U.S. does not give a hoot about democracy.

False.
They see it as a pre-condition for long trem stability and peace.

Stop living in the past Tony.
The cold war is over.

PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-02 16:43:44 UTC

You PL are the one that brought the Soviet Union into the picture, You
are the one that is living in the past or ome kind of fantasy world.
Democracy is just a way for the U.S. and the international capitalist
to control and exploit the developing nations but when it doesn't serve
their interest it doesn't really matter. Haiti, venezuela, algeria,
pakistan, egypt and many others are good examples.

2005-10-02 17:55:37 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
You PL are the one that brought the Soviet Union into the picture,

yep as you are stuck in cold war thinlking.

Post by tony fernandez
You
are the one that is living in the past or ome kind of fantasy world.

Nope.
I live in today's reality, not some twited version of history.

Post by tony fernandez
Democracy is just a way for the U.S. and the international capitalist
to control and exploit the developing nations(snip)

Nope.
It is a way to empower people in their own countries.
But thanks for confirming you love dictatorships.

PL

krp !

2005-10-03 14:18:07 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
Like I said before the U.S. does not give a hoot about democracy. Their
attack against Iraq was just a ploy to get control of the worlds second
biggest oil reserve. The U.S. overthrows more governments then the
former soviet union ever did. It has invaded more countries, started
more wars and continues to occupy more contries then the soviets ever
did. Still PL wants to pretend that their oppression of Latin America
is somehow OK!

Well if the U.S. wanted the oil from Iraq (production now back to 100%) it
failed badly because the oil is back going to where it was before. FRANCE,
GERMANY, JAPAN etc...........

2005-10-01 13:14:23 UTC

"tony fernandez" <***@webtv.net> a écrit dans le message de news:6796-433E6F19-***@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net...
First of all it is not up to the U.S. government to determine what kind
of government the Cuban people should have.
-----------------
Yes, right, BUT itr is up to the USA and the entire world nations to reject, to despise ,to see help the
cuban people under a rabid tyrann and his repressive dogs..

To help also to liberate them from slavery ,hunger and abuses of all OF THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Secondly the U.S. does not really believe or care about democracy o
the self determination of other nations. This is evident in the fact
that the U.S. was the only government to embrace the cooup in Venezuela.
In Haiti the U.S. is attempting to create another puppet government that
oppresses the majority party.
-------------------------------------------------------
Precisely, what was the stauts and situation prior to Chavez regime in Venezuela ?
Who tried in 1992 to get power thru a Coup in that same nation ?
Things like these you are so fond of forgetting or even hide from those who do not KNOW !
NOW did you ever see the USA govenment interfere in Venezuela prior to this pro totalitarian Chavez ?

NO ! SO TO AVOID A ANOTHER CUBA OR GULAG IN THE AMERICAS, NOT ONLY THE PEOPLE OF THE USA, BUT THE REST OF THE CONTINENT SHOULD STAND BY HE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE NOT THE CHAVEZ GOVERNMENT.
----------------------------------------

In Algeria the U.S. never said a word when the military stopped the
democratic lections because the Islamic salvation party was going to win
by a landslide. In fact there is and never has been a trade embargo
emposed on the Algerian military government.
---------------------------------------------

HOW slime you are..why don't you tell in here why the fanatics fro the islamic party FIS

were masacrating-- by the hundreds in one single shot some nights ----, WOMEN,CHILDREN, MEN AND OLD PEOPLE all over ALgeria ????

Now here you claim that the USA did not intervene there...where the Algerian Army was in full control
and after those bloody fanatics were eliminated , the situation has developed to a stable one under the present government of Bouteflika. BTW wasn't that government a friendly one to KaSStro...the one under Boumedieme the dictator of Argelia who took power soon after he eliminated and imprisoned Ben Bella the
leader of the Independence movement in Argelia ?

So don't let KaSStro hear that you proposed the USA intervention in Argelia...or critisize the non intervention...je, je, je

-----------------------------------------------------

The U.S. has historically supported the most repressive anti
democratic regimes in the world, the Shah of Iran, Marcos in the
phillipines, Somoza in Nicaraguaand Pinniche in Chil where they
actively conspired to overthrow their 120+ year old democracy.
In short all this BS about democracy is propqaganda for internal
domestic purposes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Los genocidios en toda la Historia en este URL o enlace : http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

Je, Je, the Soviets who killed 30 millions ... the mamaoist who killed other 40 millions....

the POL POT who was a marxist or mamaoist and killed 2 millions cambodians...

are by any comparison millions of times worst...but then these regimes do not count for you...

when it comes to demonize the USA a country where you should not live since it is such a anti democratic
society and so many inmoral exemples that you try to put on their back.

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.html
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
FOR FREEDOM & JUSTICE GROUP
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ForFreedomandJustice/
"Live-Free-or-Die"
"...one nation UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST"
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm

http://www.memesolis.com/

http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html

2005-10-01 13:19:26 UTC

ver aqui la Demokracia que este HP tony...
quisiera ver llegar un dia a su misma puerta en los USA...
je, je,je....!!!

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm
http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

http://www.liberal.org.il/spanish/genocidi.htm

2005-10-01 14:38:14 UTC

...LO MAS COMPLETO EN LA MATERIA DE GENOCIDIOS...

Ze'ev Jabotinsky
The Israeli Classical Liberal Website

Page Absolute Links Relative Links* Page Absolute Links Relative
Links*

Home Page htm htm Introducción al Liberalismo Clásico y Articulos en
Hebreo

Online primer on Classical Liberalism: History, Politics & Economics

Chapter I htm txt htm txt Chapter II htm txt htm txt
Chapter III htm txt htm txt Chapter IV htm txt htm txt

Chapter V htm txt htm txt Introduccion al Liberalismo Clasico y
Articulos en Castellano

Jabotinsky's Brief Biography htm htm Jabotinsky Peace Solution htm
htm
Author's Brief Biography htm htm Articulos en Ingles htm htm

* For linking between downloaded files. Download and read them at your
convenience

Esta Página Updated: May 2001 visitors since November 30 2000 FastCounter
by bCentral

ENCICLOPEDIA del GENOCIDIO
O
MONUMENTO al HOLOCAUSTO UNIVERSAL
Noah Nissani
Traducido por el autor con la colaboración de Myriam Nissensohn (B. Aires)

INTRODUCCIÓN
La "Enciclopedia del Genocidio" (Instituto del Holocausto y Genocidio,
Jerusalem, Israel, Israel W. Charny Ed., ABC-CLIO Inc. 1999), viene a llenar
un sentido vacío en la historiografía del Siglo XX. Su importancia
documental, a pesar que no hay en ella nada totalmente nuevo, nada que todo
aquel que quiso saber no supo a su debido tiempo, la hace merecedora de un
lugar en toda biblioteca pública o privada. Su función es recordar lo que se
prefiere olvidar, inducir a pensar, y quizas prevenir la repetición de
aquellos errores que convirtieron al Siglo XX en el más sangriento de la
historia.
Ese siglo que nació pleno de esperanzas, y fué llamado el siglo de las
luces, de l progreso, de la razón y del humanismo, fué el siglo en que se
torturó, se destruyó física y moralmente y se asesinó a centenares de
millones de indefensos seres humanos, de todas las razas y religiones, por
obra y acción de sus propios gobernantes.

Esta enciclopedia constituye, hasta el dia de hoy, el único monumento
recordatorio de este monstru oso "Holocausto Universal" realizado en nombre
de la justicia , la razón y el progr eso, sin contar las decenas de millones
de combatientes que murieron en sus interminables guerras.

Contemplando retrospectivamente el siglo que acaba de terminar, a traves de
los numeros fríos e imparciales de esta enciclopedia, es imposible evitar la
sensación, de que las exageradas esperanzas que acompañaron su nacimiento
tuvieron apreciable influencia en su trágico fin. Esperanzas que expresaban
el sentimiento de superioridad y soberbia de la moderna generación con
relación a las generaciones anteriores. Soberbia que impidió hacer uso de la
experiencia histórica de las generaciones pasadas. Sentimiento de
superioridad que llevó a despreciar la sabiduría milenaria de la Biblia, de
los filósofos griegos, y de todos aquellos que precedieron a Marx y a
Engels. Ignorando así la experiencia de generaciones contenida en sus
páginas. Soberbia que llevó a negar toda existencia superior al ser humano,
a su razón e inteligencia. Ello explica la ubicación de todos los régimenes
marxistas, aquellos que pretendieron ser capaces de crear una sociedad nueva
y justa, en los primeros puestos en la maldita lista de los genocidios.

La enciclopdia se refiere solamente al número de muertos, sin tomar en
cuenta la multitud de seres humanos que quedaron física y moralmente
destruídos. No hace referencia tampoco al mundo de miseria, prostitución y
crimen en que se hundieron los pueblos sojuzgados por el "Socialismo
Cientifico". La influencia de sus errores y fracasos continúa reclamando sus
víctimas aún después de su colapso. Con sus mujeres, niñas y niños
trabajando en los prostíbulos, y sus hombres trabajando en condiciones
vergonzosas, muchas veces ilegalmente, en el mundo occidental. Las decenas y
centenas de millones de muertos que llenan las páginas de la enciclopedia,
ocultan que detras de cada una de las muertes hay un drama humano. Y que la
muerte misma no es sino el fin de un largo proceso de destrucción de un ser
humano, de su dignidad y de su familia, y la liberación deseada de un
sufrimiento moral y físico imposible de soportar. A pesar de ello nos
ocuparemos aqui, con cierta resistencia interior, de estos números y su
significado cuantitativo.

EXOCIDIO y ENDOCIDIO
Bajo la expresión "Democidio", en los artículos "El Nuevo Concepto de
Democidio" y "El Poder Mata, el Poder Absoluto Mata Absolutamente" de R.J.
Rummel (1), se distinguen dos categorías: "democidio doméstico", o sea
asesinato de hijos del mismo pueblo, y "genocidio", cuando se trata de
miembros de otros pueblos. Estos términos no gozan de general aceptación, y
la enciclopedia se hace eco del debate sobre ellos. Yo me permitiré proponer
y usar aquí las denominaciones "endocidio" y "exocidio", las que definiría
como asesinato dentro del grupo (nación, tribu, jauría, manada o rebaño) o
fuera del mismo, respectivamente. Mi impresión es que estos conceptos
corresponden en gran medida, por una parte, a la clasificación hecha en los
mencionados artículos entre "democidio doméstico" y "genocidio", y al mismo
tiempo contribuyen a la mejor comprensión de lo incomprensible.
Nos guste o no, el género humano se desarrolló en su proceso evolutivo, al
igual que otras numerosas especies que viven en grupos o manadas, como un
animal gregario. Al igual que ellas, el hombre desarrolló normas, o sea
moral y leyes, de convivencia dentro del grupo. Este hecho es el racional
oculto tras la universal creencia, común a la Biblia, a los filósofos de la
Grecia Clásica, y a la mayoría de los fundadores del liberalismo moderno,
que las leyes de la sociedad, al igual que las leyes del mundo inerte, son
de origen divino. De aqui que, en la filosofía política liberal, la función
del legislador se limita a la investigación y redacción de las leyes de la
sociedad y no a su creacion.(2)

Estas leyes y normas de conducta estan limitadas, por su misma naturaleza, a
los miembros del grupo, y no rigen con respecto al resto de la especie, Esta
diferencia entre moral interna del grupo y moral externa al mismo, está
expresada claramente en la Biblia, en la aparente contradicción entre el
mandamiento "no matarás" y la orden de exterminar a los habitantes de
Canaan. Contradicción que resalta en el marco de la aspiración a la unidad
de la humanidad toda, que encontramos a todo lo largo de la Biblia, y que de
ella pasó al liberalismo clásico como uno de sus fundamentos.

Los límites del area de la obligación moral no coinciden forzosamente con
los los limites genéticos del pueblo, por lo que la denominación "genocide"
induce a error respecto a la naturaleza del fenómeno. Para una gran parte de
los seres humanos, sus propios hijos en el período intra-uterino de la vida
no son exactamente "seres humanos", y la interrupción de su vida no
constituye asesinato. Para otros, incluso la interrupción de la vida de sus
hijos durante un período subsiguiente a su nacimiento es aceptada. Los
abortos llegaron en los estados comunistas a proporciones sin precedentes, y
en parte de ellos el asesinato del recién nacido se hace en los hospitales
públicos con el apoyo del gobierno. El segundo hijo y los siguientes son
privados de seguro médico. En ciertos pueblos la vida de los ancianos es
considerada superflua y abandonados a morir. Nadie se sienta desligado de lo
que ocurre en otros pueblos. Todos los hombres son esencialmente iguales, y
el refran: "No preguntes por quien doblan las campanas - doblan por ti",
puede ser ampliado: "No preguntes quien es el asesino - lo eres tú".

De aquí puede deducirse que los límites del grupo, como area de la
obligación moral, incluye sólo en forma absoluta a los miembros de la misma
generación. Definiremos por lo tanto como "endocidio" al asesinato masivo de
los hijos del mismo pueblo y de la misma generación, o sea de aquellos a los
que no se les puede negar, conciente o inconcientemente, su condición de
seres humanos. Esto coincide con el hecho de que el monto total del
"democidio doméstico", tomado en cuenta en los citados articulos de R.J.
Rummel, no incluye los abortos, el asesinato de recien nacidos, ni las
muertes causadas por privación de asistencia médica al hijo segundo y
subsiguientes.

LOS NUMEROS Y SU SIGNIFICADO
En la tabla 3 del citado artículo de Rummel, estan clasificados los
regímenes mas letales del Siglo XX de acuerdo a su contribución cuantitativa
al asesinato de 170 millones de indefensos seres humanos (excluyendo los
soldados muertos en las guerras.) En esta evaluación, considerada por el
editor en jefe de la enciclopedia, I.W. Charny, conservadora en comparación
con otras que llegan hasta un total de 360 millones, ocupa el primer puesto
la Unión Soviética con 62 millones, que constituyeron un tercio de su
poblacion (!!) (O.c., pg.27, tabla 4). Le sigue la China Comunista con 40
millones (que incluyen el período de guerrilla de Mao.) (3), y Alemania Nazi
en el tercer puesto con 21 millones. Esta larga lista de los mayores
democidas, en la que se distinguen los regímenes comunistas, como Cambodia,
Vietnam, Polonia, Yugoeslavia y Corea del Norte, en su orden de aparición,
es cerrada por el Reino Unido con 816 mil victimas, e Indonesia con 729 mil.
Bastan estos números secos para provocar serias preguntas:

1) ¿Cual es la justificación moral de los juicios de Nuremberg en los que el
representante de Stalin, que encabeza la lista de democidas, está sentado
como juez, y también los otros jueces tienen un honroso lugar en ella, como
Inglaterr a que aparece en la lista, y los EE.UU. que aparecería de
prolongarse esta un poco mas? (4)

2) ¿Los tribunales internacionales destinados a juzgar crímenes contra la
humanidad son, o hay esperanza de que lo sean en un futuro próximo, capaces
de actuar contra grandes y chicos, vencedores y vencidos por igual? ¿O no
son más que una farsa que atenta contra los principios básicos de la
justicia? ¿ Existen en la humanidad aquellos justos, dignos de juzgar a los
demás?

3) ¿La alianza de Inglaterra y EE.UU. con Stalin en la segunda guerra
mundial, que trajo como consecuencia la subyugación al Marxismo de todo el
este de Europa y una gran parte de Asia, no los convirtió en cómplices del
democidio brutal que se realizó en estos pueblos? ¿ No se convirtió la
guerra por la libertad, en la guerra por el sometimiento de media humanidad
y el asesinato multitudinario?

4) ¿La discriminación contra los que apoyaron en el pasado a Hitler con
relación a la indulgencia con los que apoyaron a Stalin, no es el resultado
de esa no sacra alianza? ¿No será causada por la dificultad de aceptar
públicamente cual fue el resultado del sacrificio de millones de jóvenes en
la guerra?

De la clasificación de Rummel del democidio en exocidio (o genocidio en la
nomenclatura de Rummel) y endocidio (doméstico alli), aparece el exocidio
como fenómeno universal, participando en él casi todas las naciones y
regímenes, incl uso los mas democráticos y liberales. Por el contrario, los
endocidas del monstruoso Siglo XX pertenecen, casi exclusivamente, a dos
categorias:

a) Regímenes Marxistas, que en su casi totalidad lo realizaron en escala
astronómica, llegando hasta el asesinato de un tercio de su propio pueblo,
como en el caso de la Union Sovietica y de Cambodia.

b) Regímenes que lucharon contra guerrillas Marxistas, como los de Chiang
Kai-shek y de los Señores de la Guerra (Warlords) en China. En esta
categoría debe tambien incluirse la tan mentada junta militar del General
Videla, de los años 70 en Argentina. Aunque por el número de sus víctimas,
entre 10 y 30 mil, en comparación con los millones y decenas de millones de
los anteriores, está numericamente muy lejos de merecer ser incluída en la
mencionad a tabla. (Ib., The Dirty War of ..., Edy Kaufman & al. pg. 655)

CARACTERISTICAS del EXOCIDIO
A pesar de que no todas aparecen juntas en todos los casos, es posible
señalar las siguientes características peculiares del exocidio:
1) Universalidad (Ib., Democracy and Genocide, I.W. Charny, pg. 157):

Inglaterra, la veterana entre las democracias liberales de la era moderna,
encuentra su lugar en la mencionada tabla con un record de 800 mil victimas
pertenecientes a distintos pueblos. Todas las naciones americanas sin
excepción realizaron exterminio y/o esclavizaron indios y africanos hasta
mediados del Siglo XIX. EE.UU. y la mayor parte de las naciones de Europa y
Asia participaron en el exocidio del siglo XX. Diez millones del total de 62
millones de víctimas del Marxismo en la Union Sovietica estan clasificadas
en la citada tabla como exocidio. La China Marxista figura con 375 mil y la
Alemania Nazi con 16 millones.

2) Negación de la condición humna de las víctimas (Ib., Deshumanization ...,
I.W. Charny, pg. 155).

Deshumanización total de las víctimas, o considerarlas pertenecientes a una
raza inferior, sub-humana, como se hizo con los indios y africanos en
América, c on los judios, gitanos y otros en Alemania, con los nativos de
Australia, Filipinas, Africa, etc.. Asi como con seres humanos de todas las
razas en el periodo intra-uterino de sus vidas, y en ciertos casos tambien
durante cierto periodo de la vida extra-uterina. (5)

3) Se hace para el bien de las víctimas (En opinión de los victimarios)

En opinión de sus usufructuarios, la esclavitud salvaba a los africanos de
perpretar o ser víctimas del canibalismo. Los abortos salvan a los fetos de
nacer como hijos indeseados. Aristóteles afirma la existencia de seres
humanos para los que la esclavitud es apropiada. (Puede que tenga razón,
porque ser libre requiere una dosis de valor que no todos tienen. La Biblia
nos cuenta de aquellos que preferian la olla de carne en Egipto, a los
azares y peligros de la libertad en el desierto. Asi como tambien de
esclavos que se resisten a ser libres al terminar el período de su
esclavitud.}

4) Es un castigo que las víctimas se merecen.

A veces se trata del conocido fenómeno psicológico de proyección de las
intenciones del agresor sobre la victima. Otras veces se hace uso de
debilidades o hechos repudiables en la conducta de las victimas, de los
cuales ningún pueblo en el mundo esta libre. La Biblia nos proporciona un
ejemplo tipico de este caso: " Porque ellos [los pueblos de Canaan
destinados a ser exterminados] queman sus hijos e hijas a sus dioses."
(Deut., 12:31)

Las características 2 a 4 del exocidio permiten a hombres y mujeres comunes
tomar parte en él sin que ello afecte su autoestima como personas morales y
de buen corazón. (Ib., "Ordinary People" as Perpetrators of Genocide,
I.W.Ch. pg. 451)

5) Beneficia a los perpetradores.

En casi todos los casos de exocidio es posible señalar el beneficio que este
trae a los que lo realizan. Beneficio que es la real causa que se oculta
detras de todos los otros pretextos. Sea este la avidez por apropiarse de
las tierras de los nativos y de los tesoros naturales encerrados en ellas,
la explotación del trabajo barato de los esclavos, o librarse de la
responsabilidad, o de los problemas económicos y/o sociales, involucrados en
un embarazo no deseado. O como en el caso del Holocausto, descargar los
sentimientos de frustración provocados por la derrota de Alemania en la
guerra.

Las caracteristicas enumeradas insinuan el origen genetico-evolucionario del
exocidio, fortaleciendo la suposición de que el género humano, al igual que
otros animales gregarios, desarrolló un sistema de normas de convivencia del
grupo, que no rigen con respecto a los demas miembros de la especie. Siendo
asi, no nos queda mas que la esperanza de que con el desarrollo de la "aldea
universal", fruto del desarrollo de la técnica y de la política liberal de
fronteras abiertas a los hombres, las mercaderías y la información,
llegaremos en un futuro, no demasiado lejano, a constituir un único y gran
grupo humano universal. Entre tanto, tribunales internacionales no sólo no
ayudaran, sino que representan una seria amenaza a los principios
fundamentales de justicia, que aun siendo por el momento solo válidos dentro
de los limites del grupo nacional, son demasiado importantes para ponerlos
en peligro.

ENDOCIDIO
A diferencia del "exocidio" que es un fenómeno universal, el "endocidio" en
el Siglo XX aparece, en la "Enciclopedia del Genocidio", casi exclusivamente
en dos categorías: regimenes marxistas, y regimenes en lucha contra
guerrillas marxistas. Las causas y caracteristicas del endocidio son
aparentemente distintas en cada una de estas categorias, y a los efectos de
su discución las denominaremos "Endocidio Ideológico" y "Guerra contra
Guerrillas", respectivamente.

ENDOCIDIO IDEOLÓGICO
La determinacion de las caracteristicas del endocidio ideológico esta
dificultada por haber sido este, en el Siglo XX, un fenómeno casi exclusivo
de una sola ideologia: el marxismo. Recurriremos, por lo tanto, a
expresiones de endocidio ideologico en siglos anteriores. A pesar de las
diferencias en las dimensiones númericas y temporales, centenares de
millones de victimas en decenas de años en el uno y decenas de miles de
victimas a lo largo de varios siglos en el otro, es posible señalar un
cierto paralelismo entre el endocidio marxista y los crimenes de la
Inquisición.
Sus caracteristicas comunes aparecen siendo:

1) Seguridad absoluta en la justicia de sus respectivas causas.

Caracteriza a ambos su fe absoluta, desprovista de toda duda, en el objetivo
y en los medios apropiados a su logro. Uno basado en su fe ciega en el
"racionalismo cientifico", desconectado de la realidad y de la experiencia
histórica de la humanidad, e inconciente de las limitaciones del pensamiento
racional. El otro, prisionero en las redes de la fe mística.

La Biblia, fruto de la experiencia humana de milenios, enseña que ni
siquiera Dios puede estar seguro de la justicia de sus actos: "Y se
arrepintió Dios de haber creado al hombre" (Genesis, 6:6). Aristóteles
advierte que la seguridad excesiva en la justicia de nuestras ideas conduce
al extremismo (6). Seguridad absoluta en la causa justifica los medios, y no
hay limite a la barbarie a la que ella puede llevar.

2) Sus acciones son actos de amor y por el bien de las víctimas.

La Inquisición, en su función de guardiana de la fe cristiana, religión del
amor, actuo preocupada por los sufrimientos que esperaban despues de la
muerte a los cristianos que se apartaban de la verdadera fe. De esa fe por
la que Dios sacrificó a su hijo para comunicarsela a los hombres. Por el
bien de las victimas eran los sufrimientos temporales en este mundo, que los
salvarian de los sufrimientos eternos en el otro.

Los marxistas actuaron por amor y preocupación por la clase obrera, víctima
de la explotación despiadada, segun ellos, de la burguesía. Su objetivo era
salvarlos para siempre del sufrimiento, la muerte, la prostitución, la
miseria, el hambre y las guerras producidos por los capitalistas en su
avidez por acumular dinero. Era preferible la muerte hoy de aquellos obreros
que en su ignorancia se oponian a los que buscaban su bien, que dejarlos por
generaciones, a ellos y a sus descendientes, en su desgraciada situación
actual.

3) Arrogancia de progreso y modernismo.

Expresado en la convicción marxista de la superioridad de la generación que
conoció a Marx y al "socialismo cientifico", sobre las generaciones
precedentes primitivas e irracionales, sometidas en su ignorancia a las
religiones y otras supersticiones. La Inquisición, por su parte, en su fe en
la superioridad de aquellos que reconocieron a Jesus y a la nueva revelación
que él trajo a la humanidad.

GUERRA CONTRA GUERRILLAS
Los marxistas desarrollaron y perfeccionaron la guerra de guerrillas,
sirviendose de ella para apoderarse, con ayuda de la Union Sovietica, de
China, Cambodia, Vietnam, Mongolia, Cuba, Angola, y de extensas zonas de
otros paises como Colombia. El resultado fue el asesinato de centenas de
millones, y la esclavitud y condiciones infrahumanas de vida de los pueblos
sometidos. Las guerrillas marxistas probaron su suerte, felizmente sin
éxito, tambien en otras naciones. El Che Guevara encontro la muerte en la
selva que se extiende sobre la zona limitrofe de Paraguay, Bolivia y
Argentina. Otra tentativa de apoderarse de la Argentina fue frustrada
gracias a la "Guerra Sucia" llevada a cabo por la Junta Militar del General
Videla.(7)< P> En la guerra contra guerrillas, el ejercito enemigo no es un
cuerpo diferenciado del resto de los ciudadanos, cuyas posiciones pueden ser
atacadas cuidando no herir o matar indefensos civiles. Por el contrario, el
pacifico ciudadano de la mañana se transforma en el guerrillero de la noche,
para volver a desaparecer entre la poblacion civil al terminar la accion de
guerra. Esta caracteristica dificulta al ejercito, por fuerte que sea,
luchar exitosamente contra guerrillas. Incluso el ejercito de los EE.UU fue
derrotado por la guerrilla del Viet Cong. Por otra parte, ella impide la
distincion, necesaria para la definicion de democidio, entre la muerte de
soldados en accion de guerra y el asesinato de indefensos ciudadanos.
NOTAS:

(1) Por mayor informacion en el tema visite el sitio del Prof. R.J. Rummel
en la Universidad de Hawaii: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills
Retorno

(2) Vea al respecto en este mismo sitio: "Introduccion al Liberalismo
Clasico", capitulo V, seccion 1.
Retorno

(3) Mientras que en lo que respecta a los datos concernientes a la Union
Sovietica, Alemania Nazi, y demas naciones Europeas, hay relativo acuerdo,
respecto a las victimas de Mao hay grandes diferencias entre las
apreciaciones de distintos historiadores. Hay quienes elevan su numero a mas
de 100 millones, y el total de indefensos civiles asesinados en el siglo XX
por los gobiernos, o con su aquiescencia, a mas de 250, y hasta 360 millones
(o.c..pg. 28). A estos numeros hay que agregar los que murieron a
consecuencia de los fracasos de gobiernos, que indiferentes a la tragedia
que causaban, continuaron su politica. Por ejemplo, los 27 millones segun
Rummel (o.c.., China .. R.J. Rummel, pg. 128), o hasta 60-70 millones segun
otros, que murieron en el"gran hambre" en China a consecuencia de la
colectivizacion de la agricultura.
Retorno

(4) En la cuenta de crimenes contra la humanidad de los EE.UU. de America se
encuentran: El bombardeo atomico de Hiroshima y Nagasaki en Agosto 1945,
despues de concluida la guerra en Europa y del comienzo de los tanteos del
Japon en procura de su rendicion. En el murieron alrededor de 200 mil
victimas y un numero mayor murio posteriormente a consecuencia de sus
heridas (O.c., Hiroshima, D. Krieger, pg. 290. Nagasaki, D. Krieger, pg.
429). La matanza de filipinos a comienzos del siglo (O.c., pg. 30), y si se
cuenta el siglo de 1850 a 1950, el exterminio del resto de los indios, la
esclavitud de millones de africanos, y las leyes de discriminacion racial
que rigieron hasta despues de la segunda guerra mundial.
Retorno

(5) Ni los abortos, ni siquiera la matanza de recien nacidos que se realiza
en particular en estados comunistas como China, pero tambien en no
comunistas como India, y privacion de atencion medica del segundo hijo en
adelante, no aparecen en la enciclopedia. A pesar de que aparecen en ellos
la mayoria de las caracteristicas del exocide: universalismo,
deshumanizacion de las victimas, lo hecho es sostenido ser en bien de las
victimas (mejor no nacer que ser hijo no deseado), y beneficia a los
victimarios. Y a pesar de que numericamente los abortos superan a la suma de
todas las otras formas de exocidio y endocidio juntas.
Retorno

(6) "Aquellos que creen que toda la justicia se encuentra en su partido
llevan las cosas al extremismo" (Aritoteles, Politica, V, IX).
Retorno

(7) El reconocimiento público de la existencia de guerrilla marxista en los
años 70 en la Argentina, comienza a infiltrarse en la prensa mundial. En el
mencionado articulo de Kaufman leemos: "Las victimas fueron a veces
guerrilleros activos pero en la mayoria de los casos opositores pacificos
..." (O.c., pg. 656).

En Haaretz, 17.2.00:

"Buenos Aires. Meses despues de su ascenso al poder, el presidente de
Argentina, Fernando de la Rua, ordenó efectuar cambios en los servicios de
inteligencia y el ejército para alejar los elementos sospechosos de
colaboración en la "guerra sucia" de los años 70 y 80. Entre 15 a 30 mil
personas - opositores, guerrilleros, y otros elementos subversivos contra el
gobierno militar - desaparecieron o fueron muertos entre los años 76-83"
.[Haaretz es el mas serio de los diarios israelies en hebreo, con tendencia
izquierdista moderada.]
Retorno

Retorno al Comienzo de la Pagina
Derecha vs. Izquierda - Soberbia vs. Humildad
Diferencias en la Infraestructura Psico-Filosófica

Herzl, Jabotinsky, Weizman, Ben Gurion y el Holocausto

Teodoro Herzl fundador del Sionismo político, y Vladimiro Jabotinsky
fundador del partido Sionista Revisionista, antecesor del actual partido
Likud, comprendieron ya a fines del siglo XIX, que el Pueblo Judío afrontaba
un nuevo y virulento antisemitismo. Antisemitismo que ponia en peligro su
existencia en el Galuth, y urgía su traslado en masa a su propio estado.
Weizman y Ben Gurion, por el contrario, ajenos al peligro, estaban
posesionados por el sueño de crear una sociedad "justa", lo que requería una
inmigración limitada y seleccionada.

Since 20 March 2001
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of. ; Rafael Fandiño casa ; Pedro Corzo radio ; Pedro Corzo casa ; Orlando
"Malanga" ; Orlando "Cuco" Moro ; María Cuca Cañizares ; Manuel Barba ; Luis
Jiménez ; Luis Glez. Infante ; Lourdes Pagani ; Lionel Rodríguez ; Laida
Carro ; Juan Falcón ; José Rodríguez ; José A. Jiménez ; Jorge Hdez. Fonseca
; Joel Rodríguez ; Henio del Castillo ; Héctor Caraballo ; Germán Miret ;
Francisco Hasegawa Tanaka ; Felipe Jiménez ; Emilio Martínez Venegas ; Dr.
Santiago Cárdenas ; Carlos Almoina ; Belkis Cuza Male ; Aniceto Cuesta ;
Angel D'Fana ; Andrés Candelario ; Alberto Muller ; carlosbosch
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 3:55 PM
Subject: Fw: Individual O socialista?

----- Original Message -----
From: Raul Fernandez
To: Luis Jiménez ; Alberto Muller ; Ileana curra ; Andrés Candelario ;
Angel D'Fana ; Aniceto Cuesta ; Belkis Cuza Male ; Carlos Almoina ; Dr.
Santiago Cárdenas ; Emilio Martínez Venegas ; Felipe Jiménez ; Francisco
Hasegawa Tanaka ; Germán Miret ; Héctor Caraballo ; Henio del Castillo ;
Joel Rodríguez ; Jorge Hdez. Fonseca ; José A. Jiménez ; José Rodríguez ;
Juan Falcón ; Laida Carro ; Lionel Rodríguez ; Lourdes Pagani ; Luis Glez.
Infante ; Manuel Barba ; María "Cuca" Cañizares ; Orlando "Malanga" ; Pedro
Corzo casa ; Pedro Corzo radio ; Rafael Fandiño casa ; Rafael Fandiño of. ;
Teresita Aguirre I ; Vicente Barba ; roberto
Cc: Sociedad Civil Cuba ; Partido Republicano de Cuba
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 4:27 AM
Subject: Individual O socialista?

Artículo publicado en el Universal de nuestro compañero de prisión
Juanito Müller, que no necesita aclaraciones.

Raúl.

Juan Antonio Muller // ¿Individual o socialista?

EN ENERO DE 1959, el Che Guevara declaraba a la prensa que la única
propiedad individual en la cual creía, era sobre el cepillo de diente. No
hubo otro dirigente revolucionario, Fidel Castro incluido, que descubriese
tempranamente sus convicciones. En las revoluciones las afirmaciones se
dosifican para no alertar al enemigo y hacerle creer que la violencia no es
contra él sino contra el otro. Una estrategia similar se aplica en
Venezuela, la confiscación y la violencia son selectivas. Por ahora se
ejerce contra las unidades productivas de gran extensión pero no crean los
pequeños y medianos agricultores que van a correr mejor suerte. Su hora
también les llegará, pues cuando la revolución se sienta mucho más fuerte y
segura, no quedará títere con cabeza. El campo y la agricultura son siempre
los primeros objetivos por ser más vulnerables: la pobreza rural es mayor,
mientras que la población es menor y mal preparada. Se le engaña fácilmente
con las cartas agrarias que no brindan titularidad ni posibilidad de
traspaso. El enemigo está más indefenso apartado de los populosos centros de
poder.

Pero cuando se termine de establecer la propiedad socialista en el Texto
Constitucional, la ofensiva revolucionaria pasará a las ciudades. Los
buhoneros olvídense de sus tarantines; autobuseros, motorizados y taxistas
de sus vehículos; los cooperativistas de sus talleres de confección; los
habitantes de los barrios de sus enseres; los profesionales de sus segundas
viviendas; bodegueros, mecánicos, peluqueras, costureras y electricistas
pasarán a la nómina de las corporaciones estatales creadas al efecto.

La propiedad individual tan cara al venezolano de todos los niveles
sociales, será un mal del pasado y se presentará en los "nuevos" textos de
historia como la causante de la desigualdad y la pobreza. Así ha sido en
todos los países que, con anterioridad a nosotros, tuvieron la desgracia de
sufrir calamidades socialistas.

Causa escozor presenciar cómo las invasiones y confiscaciones, que están
a la orden del día en todas las regiones del país, no se enfrentan con la
debida decisión y firmeza. Los venezolanos pareciéramos resignados, o lo que
es peor, a creer ingenuamente que Venezuela no podrá ser socialista. En la
medida que mantengamos la guardia baja seremos noqueados, sin pelear, en el
primer round.

2005-10-01 15:17:43 UTC

Si queremos saber qué tienen en común en estos tiempos que corren sujetos
como Fidel Castro, Hugo Chávez, Chafi Handal, Evo Morales, Tiro Fijo, Los
Hermanos Ortega, José L. Rodríguez Zapatero, Lula (Brasil), Kichnner
(Argentina), el Comandante Marcos, etc., pues todos son marxistas
mesiánicos. Por tanto para encontrar la verdad y las razones de su
comportamiento hay que mirar atrás hacia el 10 de octubre de 1917 cuando los
bolcheviques tomaron el poder en Rusia. Ahí está el Genesis de todo lo que
ha ocurrido a lo largo de un siglo.

Estoy casi seguro que si Fulgencio Batista hubiera conocido lo que ocurrió
en Rusia a partir del 10 de octubre de 1917.. estoy seguro -lo repito- que
no hubiera soltado a Fidel Castro de la Cárcel, a no ser que Batista
estuviera también en la conspiración. Y esto también se le pudiera aplicar a
Rafael Calderas en Venezuela.

Manuel Prieres
--
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.html
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ForFreedomandJustice/
"Live-Free-or-Die" "...one nation UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST"
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm

Dan Christensen

2005-10-03 04:21:15 UTC

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:Yjt%e.9190$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
[snip]

Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.

[snip]

You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America??? Please excuse
the Cuban people if they politely decline.

Cuba already leads the region in health care and education. Capitalism has
nothing to offer the average Cuban -- or the average Latin American for that
matter.

Post by PL
American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs
assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been drawn up to
upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.

What a joke! Already the best in Latin America, so the US is going to
"upgrade" them???? Why hasn't the US bothered to "upgrade" the health and
education systems in the rest of Latin America?

The cheque is the mail, right, Mr. Lobbyist? Ha, ha, ha!

Post by PL
The 400-plus page report discusses ways to modernize Cuba's aviation,
railroad and maritime infrastructure. It envisions U.S. aid in holding
free and fair elections, fighting corruption and establishing independent
trade unions.

And what expertise if any does the US have in these areas?

Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has advocated
establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is outraged by the
administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in the internal affairs
of another state," Smith said.

Well said, Mr. Smith.

Post by PL
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the
transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.

[snip]

And what is your reply to him, Mr. Lobbyist?

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

krp !

2005-10-03 14:20:59 UTC

BAGHDAD DANNY

Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]

Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.

[snip]
You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America??? Please
excuse the Cuban people if they politely decline.
Cuba already leads the region in health care and education. Capitalism has
nothing to offer the average Cuban -- or the average Latin American for
that matter.

Good think you don't even come close to speaking for the Cuban people. Seems
like Havana is having FITS trying to stamp out those pesky little capitalist
inclinations among the people who keep coming up with their own private
enterprises to get by on.................

Dan Christensen

2005-10-03 04:57:23 UTC

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:Yjt%e.9190$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
[snip]

Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.

Post by PL
American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs
assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been drawn up to
upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.

What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate -- the single most
reliable indicator of over all public health -- Cuba surpassed the US years
ago! And the US is going to "upgrade" Cuba's health care system????

Also, why hasn't the US bothered to "upgrade" the health and education
systems in the rest of Latin America? (The cheque is in the mail, right, Mr.
Lobbyist?) Instead, it is Cuba that upgrading health and education systems
there, sending thousands of doctors and teachers throughout the region --
CUBA!

And what expertise, if any, does the US have in these areas? Very little it
would seem these days.

Well said, Mr. Smith.

Post by PL
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the
transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.

[snip]

And what is your reply to him, Mr. Lobbyist?

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

2005-10-03 09:19:23 UTC

Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]

Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.

[snip]
You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America

which is a lot more democratic than cuba indeed.

Post by Dan Christensen
Please excuse the Cuban people if they politely decline.

(snip)

You are very badly placed to speak for anyone in Cuba pompous arse.
Who do you think you are?

Post by PL
American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs
assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been drawn up to
upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.

What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate(snip)

but then international experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island
have reported the Cuba's reporting of health statistics is "politically
influenced", no?

And what expertise, if any, does the US have in these areas? Very little
it would seem these days.

but Cuba has none, no?
Since Castro all elections are pre-controlled by the regime that decides who
can be a candidate and who not.

Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has
advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is
outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in the
internal affairs of another state," Smith said.

Well said, Mr. Smith.

as weel said as whe,n he stated that he does not support and "inmmediate and
unconditional" end to the trade sanctions as you always falsely claimed
about him?
Mr. Smith does want to keep up pressure for democratic change, no?

Post by PL
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the
transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.

[snip]
And what is your reply

The US does not need to versee anything, just assist comrade Dan.
That is what they aim to do.

Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist?

Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you. You can
not deny that you are a self declared Stalinist cyber activists who lives in
a nice 250,000 dollar suburban house in Canada (realtor site with images can
be given at your request) while playing the communist.
Stuck as you are without arguments all you have left are lies, personal
attacks and moronic innuendo

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP
address of my posts in SCC at that time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl1746703614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the ones
below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

YOUR own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

Link to the "report": (the one you don't give)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report. Aren't they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
this
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.

"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1

"· to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.

· to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government

· to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
· to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
· to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

PL

Dan Christensen

2005-10-03 14:10:57 UTC

Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]

Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.

[snip]
You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America

which is a lot more democratic than cuba indeed.

Post by Dan Christensen
Please excuse the Cuban people if they politely decline.

(snip)
You are very badly placed to speak for anyone in Cuba pompous arse.
Who do you think you are?

The Cuban people are quite capabable of speaking for themselves, and have
done so on many occassions. In one vote after another, by secret ballot,
they have overwhelmingly (about 95%) voiced their support for their
government and the Revolution. I guess, that's why you feel it is necessary
to inflict these genocidal sanctions on them -- to FORCE your hateful
ideology on them. That'll teach 'em to mess with the Empire, right, Mr.
Lobbyist?

Post by PL
American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs
assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been drawn up to
upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.

What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate(snip)

but then international experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island
have reported the Cuba's reporting of health statistics is "politically
influenced", no?

Only according your one pathetic little, 8-year old posting at some obscure
message board. Though you have been trying for years -- some times with
quite comical results! -- you have been unable to find even one independent
expert who will back your outrageous claim that Cuba health stats are
somehow unreliable. Even your fellow ultra-conservatives at the
Washington-based World Bank have been forced to concede what "great job"
Cuba is doing in health care and education. Top officials of the Bank also
concede that these remarkable gains would NOT be sustainable under a
capitalist regime. And they, along with their sister organization, the
notorious IMF, have to power to ensure that this would indeed be the case.
There are many precedents for this. See Featured Article, "What do Cubans
stand to lose and who stands to gain?" at my website.

What Mr. Lobbyist snipped:

"Also, why hasn't the US bothered to "upgrade" the health and education
systems in the rest of Latin America? (The cheque is in the mail, right, Mr.
Lobbyist?) Instead, it is Cuba that upgrading health and education systems
there, sending thousands of doctors and teachers throughout the region."

No comment, Mr. Lobbyist? With public health care and education a shambles
in the rest of Latin America, why should we believe the US would now be
committed to "upgrading" them in Cuba when they are already the best in
region? It's all just a smokescreen for your evil intentions, isn't it?

And what expertise, if any, does the US have in these areas? Very little
it would seem these days.

but Cuba has none, no?
Since Castro all elections are pre-controlled by the regime that decides
who can be a candidate and who not.

Actually, candidates are nominated directly by the people themselves in open
public meetings, or by their democratically elected representatives who
themselves were nominated in this way. Too much democracy for you, Mr.
Lobbyist? We know that you believe such important decisions should be left
to the US Embassy and the local oligarchs, but that's your problem. In Cuba,
the majority rules. (See "Democracy in Cuba" at my website.)

Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has
advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is
outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in
the internal affairs of another state," Smith said.

Well said, Mr. Smith.

as weel said as whe,n he stated that he does not support and "inmmediate
and unconditional" end to the trade sanctions as you always falsely
claimed about him?
Mr. Smith does want to keep up pressure for democratic change, no?

I don't support everything he says, but he is strongly opposed to the
embargo. See his website at:

http://ciponline.org/cuba/index.htm

Post by PL
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the
transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.

[snip]
And what is your reply

The US does not need to versee anything, just assist comrade Dan.

[snip]

Very evasive. Please answer his question.

Maybe the following will help. From a posting of yours last year:

Cuban Dissidents Reject Bush Pro-Democracy Plan

By Isabel Garcia-Zarza

HAVANA (Reuters) - Leading Cuban dissidents on Monday rejected President
Bush (news - web sites)'s plans to speed up a democratic transition in
communist-run Cuba and said U.S. meddling would not help bring political
change.

The White House announced steps on Thursday to spend $36 million on
promoting democratic change in Cuba and blocking a communist succession when
President Fidel Castro (news - web sites) dies.

The measures include new sanctions to squeeze the island's battered economy
and the broadcast of anti-Castro television signals from a military C-130
transport off Cuba.

"This is a total interference that does not benefit the building of
democracy in Cuba," said moderate dissident Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo, who
criticized Bush's policy in a statement he handed in at the U.S. diplomatic
mission in Havana.

"The United States has no right to set the pace of a transition in Cuba. It
is humiliating," said Manuel Cuesta Morua, another moderate who accompanied
Gutierrez Menoyo.

Cuba's best-known dissident, Oswaldo Paya, winner of the European
Parliament's Andrei Sakharov human rights prize, said it was up to Cubans,
not the United States or a European government, to design a post-Castro
transition for the Caribbean island.

Cuban dissidents also rejected Bush's plan to appoint a "transition
coordinator" in the next few weeks to implement the White House's
pro-democracy strategy, which aims to undermine the continuation of
communism in Cuba under Castro's younger brother and designated successor,
Raul Castro.

"The proposals are totally counterproductive," said veteran Cuban human
rights activist Elizardo Sanchez, who warned that opponents receiving U.S.
money would be immediately exposed to arrest.

Castro, 77, in power since a 1959 revolution, last year ordered the arrest
of 75 dissidents, who received prison terms of up to 28 years. Dissidents
are regularly branded traitors on Washington's payroll by the ruling
Communist Party.

The Cuban government has criticized the Bush measures as "cruel" steps to
toughen a U.S. economic blockade dating from 1962.

Cuba watchers questioned the timing of the measures and said they appeared
to be tailored to curry favor with hard-line Cuban-American voters in
Florida, an important state in November's presidential election.

CONCERN ON LIMITING VISITS

The White House measure most widely criticized by Cubans was limiting annual
visits to the island by Cuban- Americans living in the United States to one
trip every three years.

The Bush administration had toyed with the idea of cutting family
remittances by half, to deny the cash-strapped Castro government vital cash
inflows.

Facing criticism from Cuban-Americans, the White House opted instead to
reduce the frequency of visits, restrict remittances to immediate family
members and step up police action against "mules" taking illegal sums of
cash to Cuba.

Cubans living in the United States are allowed to remit up to $1,200 a year
to relatives in Cuba. Remittances are estimated to total from $300 million
to $1.2 billion a year.

"The people who drew up these measures obviously do not have family in
Cuba," said Harold Bloom, arriving in Havana from Miami for a visit.

Post by PL
Mr. Lobbyist?
Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.

[snip]

No lies or misquotes, Mr. Lobbyist, just your OWN words. You would like us
to forget all about your little indiscretion here -- your boasting here
about your lobbying exploits -- wouldn't you? Did you really think we would
be impressed???

In addition to your own words here, we have your prodigious production stats
here and at other forums. For details, see the thread "Top Official: US
Wants Cuba 'Liberation'" where our Mr. Lobbyist here obligingly runs through
almost his entire repertoire of desperate lies, distortions and evasions,
including those here, each debunked yours truly at:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_frm/thread/1ae3dea90e537555/c9ae6074e5dc9370?q=group:soc.culture.cuba+insubject:top+insubject:official#c9ae6074e5dc9370

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

2005-10-03 15:44:17 UTC

Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]

Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.

[snip]
You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America

which is a lot more democratic than cuba indeed.

Post by Dan Christensen
Please excuse the Cuban people if they politely decline.

(snip)
You are very badly placed to speak for anyone in Cuba pompous arse.
Who do you think you are?

The Cuban people are quite capabable of speaking for themselves,(snip)

then don't presume to speak for them and stop supporting those that denie
them freedom of speech.

Post by PL
American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs
assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been drawn up to
upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.

What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate(snip)

but then international experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island
have reported the Cuba's reporting of health statistics is "politically
influenced", no?

Only according your one pathetic little, 8-year old posting at some obscure
message board(snip)

and nothing has changed, has.
By the way that "pathetic" and "obscure" message board is
www.promedmail.org, one of the prime infectious disease networs.
Even Dr. Kouri, the top Cuban in the field thinks it necessay to contribute.
It seems he understands the value of the forum.
But as usual comrade Dan attacks the source if he can't refute the content.

And what expertise, if any, does the US have in these areas? Very little
it would seem these days.

but Cuba has none, no?
Since Castro all elections are pre-controlled by the regime that decides
who can be a candidate and who not.

Actually, candidates are nominated directly by the people themselves in
open public meetings,(snip)

run by the CDR who prime task is to report all "regime unfriendly" activity
and that can ensure that people lose their house, their job, their
education, ...
At the meeting a pre-vetted selection is available only.
Not all candidates can freely stand.
As such this is no more than a "rubber stamp" under pressure of a
pre-selected group.

Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has
advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is
outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in
the internal affairs of another state," Smith said.

Well said, Mr. Smith.

as weel said as when he stated that he does not support and "inmmediate
and unconditional" end to the trade sanctions as you always falsely
claimed about him?
Mr. Smith does want to keep up pressure for democratic change, no?

I don't support everything he says, but he is strongly opposed to the

(snip)

You are avoiding the issue comrade Dan.
Disn't you claim he called fro an immediate and unconditional end to the
embargo while he actually said the opposite?

Post by PL
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the
transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.

[snip]
And what is your reply

The US does not need to versee anything, just assist comrade Dan.

[snip]
Very evasive. (snip)

Nope.
A fact.

No lies or misquotes, Mr. Lobbyist (snip)

Dan Christensen

2005-10-03 16:28:59 UTC

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:elc0f.82594$***@blueberry.telenet-ops.be...
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to both
with]

Post by Dan Christensen
What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate(snip)

but then international experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island
have reported the Cuba's reporting of health statistics is "politically
influenced", no?

Only according your one pathetic little, 8-year old posting at some obscure
message board(snip)

[snip]

As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus of
expert opinion is against you, Mr. Lobbyist (previous posting). Again, all
you have is one pathetic, 8-year old posting at an obscure message board. It
has been 5 or 6 years now, and you still have not come up with even a single
independent expert that will back your outrageous claims. As usual.

Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has
advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is
outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in
the internal affairs of another state," Smith said.

Well said, Mr. Smith.

I don't support everything he says, but he is strongly opposed to the

(snip)
You are avoiding the issue comrade Dan.
Disn't you claim he called fro an immediate and unconditional end to the
embargo while he actually said the opposite?

[snip]

Mr. Lobbyist desperately trying to change the subject!

YOU are avoiding the issue, Mr. Lobbyist. Please answer Smith's question
from your OWN posting here:

"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the transition.
Who gives us that right?"

And you still refuse to answer the obvious question:

Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are already
the best in the region, and those in the rest of the region are in such
shambles? Obviously these "upgrades" of yours are just a smokescreen for
your evil intentions.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

PS: If, as I suspect, you are simply going to keep repeating yourself here
and refuse to answer the above questions, do not expect a reply from me.

2005-10-03 22:09:09 UTC

Post by Dan Christensen
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to both
with]

Post by Dan Christensen
What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate(snip)

but then international experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island
have reported the Cuba's reporting of health statistics is "politically
influenced", no?

Only according your one pathetic little, 8-year old posting at some obscure
message board(snip)

[snip]
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)

Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.

Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has
advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is
outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in
the internal affairs of another state," Smith said.

Well said, Mr. Smith.

I don't support everything he says, but he is strongly opposed to the

(snip)
You are avoiding the issue comrade Dan.
Disn't you claim he called fro an immediate and unconditional end to the
embargo while he actually said the opposite?

[snip]
Mr. Lobbyist desperately trying to change the subject!

(snip)

Nope.
You are.
Well all can see below why you dare not answer.

Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist (snip)

Dan Christensen

2005-10-04 02:57:16 UTC

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:0_h0f.143351$***@biebel.telenet-ops.be...
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to both
with]

Post by Dan Christensen
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)

Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.

[snip]

So then it should be relatively easy to find several independent experts to
support your outrageous claims here, Mr. Lobbyist. It has been 5 or 6 years
and we are still waiting for even one to pan out.

Post by PL
Well all can see below why you dare not answer.

[snip]

Poor, poor desperate Mr. Lobbyist! He has painted himself into yet another
corner. He is unwilling or unable to answer the question posed in his own
posting:

"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the transition.
Who gives us that right?"

Even Cuban dissidents themselves are opposed to this meddling by the US
regime (previous posting).

Mr. Lobbyist is also unwilling or unable to answer the obvious questions:

Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems? Have they in the past
demonstrated any significant commitment to public health and education in
the region? Not that you would notice. In these areas, the region as a whole
lags far behind Cuba today despite decades long, genocidal US trade
sanctions. Sometimes it seems the only thing more deadly than be an enemy of
the Empire, is to be its friend!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist (snip)

Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.
As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you. You can
not deny that you are a self declared Stalinist cyber activists who lives in
a nice 250,000 dollar suburban house in Canada (realtor site with images can
be given at your request) while playing the communist.
Stuck as you are without arguments all you have left are lies, personal
attacks and moronic innuendo
Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP
address of my posts in SCC at that time prove).
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl1746703614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.
Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the ones
YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en
'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823
YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.
Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
Link to the "report": (the one you don't give)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB
They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report. Aren't they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
this
"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."
In 8.1
"· to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.
· to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."
and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report
You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.
"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
· to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
· to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
· to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."
Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB
PL

2005-10-04 14:02:41 UTC

Post by Dan Christensen
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to both
with]

Post by Dan Christensen
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)

Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.

[snip]
So then it should be relatively easy to find several independent (snip)

Yep.
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit
of the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University of Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent
three months in Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers
on Cuban health care. Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was
only able to get hold of the official statistical data and find them
not especially trustworthy.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html

Post by PL
Well all can see below why you dare not answer.

[snip]
Poor, poor desperate

Yep.
That is what you are.

Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist! (snip)

Dan Christensen

2005-10-04 18:23:51 UTC

[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to
both with]

Post by Dan Christensen
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)

Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.

[snip]
So then it should be relatively easy to find several independent (snip)

[snip]

This one again??? Mr. Lobbyist NEVER seems to learn from his mistakes.
I like that about him!

I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote, something which, for
obvious reasons, our Mr. Lobbyist refuses to do. (Once bitten, twice
shy, as they say.) It turns out Dr. T was referring not to health
indicators -- which he said were "quite rigorous" -- but to economic
stats. According to his online CV, he is a health economist.

Once again, Mr. Lobbyist was exposed for the truly desperate liar that
he is by his OWN source. This was by no means the first time either.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

2005-10-04 19:08:14 UTC

Post by Dan Christensen
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to
both with]

Post by Dan Christensen
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)

Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.

[snip]
So then it should be relatively easy to find several independent (snip)

[snip]
This one again(snip)

The other one you could never refute.

Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist! (snip)

Dan Christensen

2005-10-04 20:39:33 UTC

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:oqA0f.86832$***@blueberry.telenet-ops.be...
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to both
with]

Post by Dan Christensen
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)

Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.

[snip]
So then it should be relatively easy to find several independent (snip)

[snip]
This one again(snip)

The other one you could never refute.

[snip]

The one that made you look like a pathetic loser, Mr. Lobbyist (previous
posting).

Anyway, as you usually do when you lose an argument, you have been reduced
to mindlessly repeating yourself here. If you have nothing better than this,
do not expect a reply from me.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

2005-10-04 20:44:04 UTC

Post by Dan Christensen
[snip portions of PL posting recently debunked here, or too lame to both
with]

Post by Dan Christensen
As usual, we are left with the fact that the overwhelming consensus (snip)

Nope, comrade Dan.
Mots people that have in depth knowledge of Cuba know wtatistics are
doctored more than the people.

[snip]
So then it should be relatively easy to find several independent (snip)

[snip]
This one again(snip)

The other one you could never refute.

[snip]
The one that made you look like a pathetic loser (snip)

Nope.
the one that again exposed you as a pathetic liar comrade Dan.
your "private lies" can never refute pulic statements.
You should know that by now.
You were exposed a couple of times already.

Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist! (snip)

krp !

2005-10-04 00:57:39 UTC

BAGHDAD DAN

Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are already
the best in the region,

BULLSHIT!!!! See www.the realcuba.com

Dan Christensen

2005-10-04 03:04:32 UTC

Post by krp !
BAGHDAD DAN

Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,

BULLSHIT!!!! See www.the realcuba.com

They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some hokey
little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken anywhere.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

krp !

2005-10-04 12:52:17 UTC

OLE BULLSHITTIN DANNY the UGLY CANADIAN PROPAGANDIST

Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,

BULLSHIT!!!! See www.therealcuba.com

They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some
hokey little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken
anywhere.

But - Danny were NOT. Note that those photos came from an EXTREMELY
RELIABLE Scandinavian newspaper and NOT the CIA.... NOT the "Miami Mafia"
and NOT the State Department but independent JOURNALISTS... And if THAT
doesn't blister your ass there is another side with completely different yet
similar photographic PROOF that your IDEAL SYSTEM
sucks........................ Again from NON-AMERICAN
journalists............ Forget the TESTIMONY of actual CUBAN doctors and
people Danny who verify what those photos show. What have YOU GOT? The
JANITOR at the world bank who has NEVER been to Cuba, and GRANMA!

PATHETIC DANNY!

Dan Christensen

2005-10-04 18:34:18 UTC

Post by krp !
OLE BULLSHITTIN DANNY the UGLY CANADIAN PROPAGANDIST

Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,

BULLSHIT!!!! See www.therealcuba.com

They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some
hokey little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken
anywhere.

But - Danny were NOT. Note that those photos came from an EXTREMELY
RELIABLE Scandinavian newspaper

[snip]

Even Scandinavian newspapers can be duped. And like Belgium, I am sure
there is no shortage of right-wing propandists and apologists in these
countries, too.

In any case, this anti-Cuban website of yours, like your fellow
embargo-Nazis here, cannot cite even one independent expert to support
their outrageous. Even a hate-addled fanatic like you, Kenny, must
wonder about that.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

krp !

2005-10-05 12:33:13 UTC

OLE BULLSHITTIN DANNY the UGLY CANADIAN PROPAGANDIST

Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,

BULLSHIT!!!! See www.therealcuba.com

They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some
hokey little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken
anywhere.

But - Danny were NOT. Note that those photos came from an EXTREMELY
RELIABLE Scandinavian newspaper

[snip and RUN from the truth]
Even Scandinavian newspapers can be duped. And like Belgium, I am sure
there is no shortage of right-wing propandists and apologists in these
countries, too.

Danny you are just CRAZY as hell. You mean they were hallucinating?
They only THOUGHT they were in Cuba because the "MAMI MAFIA" told them. They
were REALLY in a hospital for Cubans in Miami! That kind of bullshit may
sell with mindless Canadians Danny, but the rest of the world is rolling on
the floor holding its sides LAUGHING at your INSANE arguments!

In any case, this anti-Cuban website of yours, like your fellow
embargo-Nazis here, cannot cite even one independent expert to support
their outrageous. Even a hate-addled fanatic like you, Kenny, must
wonder about that.

Yes- Danny they DO......... However every time they DO cite experts YOU
merely claim they are nOT "independent" like you TRY with the Swedish
Journalists and the like. What an easy way to TRY to deny photographic
evidence. Now terll me Danny - WHAT possible morive could Swedish
Journalists have for LYING? Danny ever think that the rest of the world
might be right and it is YOU who is INSANE here?

Dan Christensen

2005-10-05 20:26:56 UTC

Post by krp !
OLE BULLSHITTIN DANNY the UGLY CANADIAN PROPAGANDIST

Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,

BULLSHIT!!!! See www.therealcuba.com

They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some
hokey little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken
anywhere.

But - Danny were NOT. Note that those photos came from an EXTREMELY
RELIABLE Scandinavian newspaper

[snip and RUN from the truth]
Even Scandinavian newspapers can be duped. And like Belgium, I am sure
there is no shortage of right-wing propandists and apologists in these
countries, too.

Danny you are just CRAZY as hell. You mean they were hallucinating?
They only THOUGHT they were in Cuba because the "MAMI MAFIA" told them.
They were REALLY in a hospital for Cubans in Miami! That kind of bullshit
may sell with mindless Canadians Danny, but the rest of the world is
rolling on the floor holding its sides LAUGHING at your INSANE arguments!

I really doubt it, Kenny. Your country's government is now internationally
famous for its lies and distortions. (WMD's ring a bell?)

Yes- Danny they DO......... However every time they DO cite experts YOU
merely claim they are nOT "independent" like you TRY with the Swedish
Journalists and the like.

[snip]

We know nothing about them. Journalists, even honest ones, are not
independent medical experts. And they can be duped by unscrupulous,
politically motivated con-artists. Of course, some journalists have
knowingly disseminated lies and disinformation for political purposes. The
CIA has often been known to plant stories with its international network of
like-minded journalists -- just one part of their bag of dirty tricks to
advance US imperialist interests.

Again, the consensus of independent expert opinion -- medical experts who
have gone to see for themselves -- is that Cuba is doing a great job in
health care. Not one such expert seems willing to support your outrageous
claims. You just can't seem to get around that fact, can you, Kenny? Neither
can your fellow embargo-Nazis here, or your absurd little anti-Cuban
website.

Anyway, if you are just going to mindlessly repeating yourself like this and
have nothing new to add, do not expect a reply from me. I think we have
about exhausted the topic.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

krp!

2005-10-06 13:56:16 UTC

BAGHDAD DAN

Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,

BULLSHIT!!!! See www.therealcuba.com

They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some
hokey little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken
anywhere.

But - Danny were NOT. Note that those photos came from an EXTREMELY
RELIABLE Scandinavian newspaper

[snip and RUN from the truth]
Even Scandinavian newspapers can be duped. And like Belgium, I am sure
there is no shortage of right-wing propandists and apologists in these
countries, too.

Danny you are just CRAZY as hell. You mean they were hallucinating?
They only THOUGHT they were in Cuba because the "MAMI MAFIA" told them.
They were REALLY in a hospital for Cubans in Miami! That kind of
bullshit may sell with mindless Canadians Danny, but the rest of the
world is rolling on the floor holding its sides LAUGHING at your INSANE
arguments!

I really doubt it, Kenny. Your country's government is now internationally
famous for its lies and distortions. (WMD's ring a bell?)

Diversion from issue at hand. And another distortion that is improper
for this forum. IF you REALLY want to debate on that let's do that elsewhere
in its own thread.

Yes- Danny they DO......... However every time they DO cite experts
YOU merely claim they are nOT "independent" like you TRY with the Swedish
Journalists and the like.

Danny you absue the shit out of RATIONALIUZATIONS and excuse making. The
PHOTOS taken IN Cuban medical establishments (Hospitals and clinics) speak
for themselves. All of your jaw jacking BULLSHIT and attempts to take
attention OFF the proof that your claims are IDIOTIC does NOT sell to most
of us.

Post by Dan Christensen
Again, the consensus of independent expert opinion -- medical experts who
have gone to see for themselves -- is that Cuba is doing a great job in
health care. Not one such expert seems willing to support your outrageous
claims. You just can't seem to get around that fact, can you, Kenny?
Neither can your fellow embargo-Nazis here, or your absurd little
anti-Cuban website.

People taken on a cook's tour of what the Havana government will allow
them to see. Much like Hussein took a CNN crew to Kuwait to view *A*
hospital to disprove the atrocities that were kater PROVEN to have been
going on.

Post by Dan Christensen
Anyway, if you are just going to mindlessly repeating yourself like this
and have nothing new to add, do not expect a reply from me. I think we
have about exhausted the topic.

As you MINDLESSLY try to use the SAME threadbare rationalizations to try
to convince us to disbelieve what we can see with our own eyes. Than you get
all pissy when we won't!

Danny - YOUR bullshit makes people SOUND many times more hostile to the
Cuban government than we are. Just because your lunatic bullshit evokes that
kind of response.

2005-10-06 12:13:30 UTC

Dan...pisssst ....sorry pal..

go to ......Japan...........or Germany.........or South Korea

and ask if the USA did any wrong or caused any difficulties, miseries, and
colonized them as it was the case of the 20 nations conquered by force and
dirty tricks in Eastern Europe...by the soviets from Russia...

ASK from Aserbabdjian to Finland passing by Ukrainia and Latvia,Estonia and
Lithuania...Checoslovakia,Poland East Germany ,Hungary ,Rumania,etc. what
they were and what they became after they were under control of the
"socialists republics of the soviets "...( Russia)

Tell ...what is Japan or Germany --- the half that was not under the
soviets--or So. Korea today
in terms of Economics and what are their standings in the list of the 198
nations...??????

...................so much for the kasstro fake socialism or marxism...!!!
--
--
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.html
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ForFreedomandJustice/
"Live-Free-or-Die" "...one nation UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST"
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm

Dan Christensen

2005-10-05 03:28:52 UTC

Post by krp !
OLE BULLSHITTIN DANNY the UGLY CANADIAN PROPAGANDIST

Post by Dan Christensen
Why should we believe that the US regime is now suddenly committed to
"upgrading" Cuba's health care and education systems when they are
already the best in the region,

BULLSHIT!!!! See www.therealcuba.com

They, too, have been unable to cite even one independent expert to support
their claims about the Cuban health care system. All they have is some
hokey little photo gallery that, for all we know, could have been taken
anywhere.

But - Danny were NOT. Note that those photos came from an EXTREMELY
RELIABLE Scandinavian newspaper

[snip]

Even Scandinavian newspapers can be duped. And like Belgium, I am sure
there is no shortage of right-wing propandists and apologists in these
countries, too.

In any case, this anti-Cuban website of yours, like your fellow
embargo-Nazis here, cannot cite even one independent expert to support their
outrageous claims. Even a hate-addled fanatic like you, Kenny, must wonder
about that.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

2005-10-04 12:57:04 UTC

of course they are capable of speaking for themselves, and have
done so on many occassions....by THE BIAS OF THE BALSAS OR RAFTS...ESCAPING
FROM THE GULAG...
voting -- by escaping-- against the sadist ruler of the gulag Cuba...

Every day or almost there are cubans trying to escape that gulag...many
never see their hopes materialized ..they get lost or sunk in the
seas...others are rescued and sent back to the hellish gulag they were
trying to escape from...
--
http://www.memesolis.com/
http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm
http://community-2.webtv.net/VivaCubaLibre/LosWebpagesdeSchmidt/index.html
http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page4.html
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ForFreedomandJustice/
"Live-Free-or-Die" "...one nation UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST"
http://therealcuba.com/Dennis.htm
http://therealcuba.com/Page24.htm

Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]

Post by PL
The report spells out moves to bring pressure on Castro and provide help
if and when democratically inclined leaders take power.

[snip]
You mean "help" like they get in the rest of Latin America

which is a lot more democratic than cuba indeed.

Post by Dan Christensen
Please excuse the Cuban people if they politely decline.

(snip)
You are very badly placed to speak for anyone in Cuba pompous arse.
Who do you think you are?

Post by PL
American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs
assessment" as soon as possible. Detailed plans have been drawn up to
upgrade Cuba's health and education systems.

What a joke! By the measure of the infant mortality rate(snip)

but then international experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island
have reported the Cuba's reporting of health statistics is "politically
influenced", no?

And what expertise, if any, does the US have in these areas? Very little
it would seem these days.

but Cuba has none, no?
Since Castro all elections are pre-controlled by the regime that decides
who can be a candidate and who not.

Post by PL
Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has
advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is
outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in
the internal affairs of another state," Smith said.

Well said, Mr. Smith.

as weel said as whe,n he stated that he does not support and "inmmediate
and unconditional" end to the trade sanctions as you always falsely
claimed about him?
Mr. Smith does want to keep up pressure for democratic change, no?

I don't support everything he says, but he is strongly opposed to the
embargo. See his website at:

http://ciponline.org/cuba/index.htm

Post by PL
"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the
transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.

[snip]
And what is your reply

The US does not need to versee anything, just assist comrade Dan.

Post by PL
Mr. Lobbyist?
Just another example of you lies and misquotes comrade Dan.

tony fernandez

2005-10-05 21:44:01 UTC

Lets go back to the original post that started this thread
first paragraph reads :" Fidel Castro is 79 years old and the bush
administration has big Ideas for Cuba once he departs." So it appears
that Castro was right all along in the tough security measures that he
has been forced to put into place to deal with the threat that the U.S.
imposes on Cubas national security in order to defend itself against
this foreign agression posed by the USA.
" When that day comes the U.S. wants to leave as little chance as
possible to the islands political fate". In other words they seek to
impose their will on the ISLAND.
" it is official U.S. policy to undermine Cubas succession from Castroto
his brother Raul 74".
Clearly this is interference in Cubas internal affairs and
soveriegnty.
" " wE ARE LOOKING TO SUPPORT A GENUINE transition to political
freedom for the Cuban people" the state department offical recently put
in charge of transition matters for Cuba."
Political freedom as long as they do what the U.S. wants. This is
obvious by the second parapragh . " when the day comes the U.S. wants to
leave as little chance as possible to the islands plitical fate.
It is obvious that PL and those like him are supporters of the U.S.
domination and subjugation of the latin Americans and that Castro and
now chavez stand in the way of their sceme to enslave the latin American
people .

Miguel

2005-10-06 03:17:16 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
Lets go back to the original post that started this thread
first paragraph reads :" Fidel Castro is 79 years old and the bush
administration has big Ideas for Cuba once he departs." So it appears
that Castro was right all along in the tough security measures that he
has been forced to put into place to deal with the threat that the U.S.
imposes on Cubas national security in order to defend itself against
this foreign agression posed by the USA.
" When that day comes the U.S. wants to leave as little chance as
possible to the islands political fate". In other words they seek to
impose their will on the ISLAND.
" it is official U.S. policy to undermine Cubas succession from Castroto
his brother Raul 74".
Clearly this is interference in Cubas internal affairs and
soveriegnty.
" " wE ARE LOOKING TO SUPPORT A GENUINE transition to political
freedom for the Cuban people" the state department offical recently put
in charge of transition matters for Cuba."
Political freedom as long as they do what the U.S. wants. This is
obvious by the second parapragh . " when the day comes the U.S. wants to
leave as little chance as possible to the islands plitical fate.

No. Freedom, period. Freedom of Speech. Freedom of Religion. Freedom
from Want and Fear. Freedom to vote and elect the candidates we want
and not a decrepit tyrant who has destroyed Cuba, who has killed,
tortured or jailed hundreds of thousands of Cubans, who has caused the
exile of 20% of the population, who have caused the deaths of over 80
thousand Cubans on the Florida Straits.

Tony, the tyrant you support is a mass murderer.

krp!

2005-10-06 13:58:06 UTC

Post by Miguel
No. Freedom, period. Freedom of Speech. Freedom of Religion. Freedom
from Want and Fear. Freedom to vote and elect the candidates we want
and not a decrepit tyrant who has destroyed Cuba, who has killed,
tortured or jailed hundreds of thousands of Cubans, who has caused the
exile of 20% of the population, who have caused the deaths of over 80
thousand Cubans on the Florida Straits.
Tony, the tyrant you support is a mass murderer.

No freedom from hunger. No freedom from thirst. No freedom from contaminated
water and food.
No freedom from pain because of a contaminated environment.

BUT freedom from HAPPINESS!

2005-10-06 09:02:14 UTC

"tony fernandez" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:28549-43444921-***@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net...
(snip)

Post by tony fernandez
Clearly this is interference in Cubas internal affairs and
soveriegnty.

Nope. The Cuban people is the one that represents the sovereignty of the
nation.
It can delegate that to a democratically elected government.
In Cuba there is no democratically elected government and the as such the
regime can not claim to represent the nation.

Post by tony fernandez
" " wE ARE LOOKING TO SUPPORT A GENUINE transition to political
freedom for the Cuban people" the state department offical recently put
in charge of transition matters for Cuba."
Political freedom as long as they do what the U.S. wants.(snip)

Nope.
Political freedom as Cuban want it.

PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-06 22:00:34 UTC

The U.S. doesn't give a hoot about political freedom or any other kind
of freedom. They have supported and continue to support the most
repressive governments in the world Pakistan, Egypt , Saudi arabia, and
Israel.
They don't care what the government does as long as they serve the
American interest.
In Haiti the U.S. supports an antidemocratic government that shoots
people in soccer stadiums in public view just like they supported the
murderous oligarchy in El Salvador. All the time giving lip serves to
human rights. Actions speak louder then words. The U.S. is today
engaged in a murderous campaign to subjugate the people of IRAQ and
tomorrow the world.
Has the world learned nothing that appeasement will not save them
from the American Blitzkieg?

2005-10-07 07:44:41 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
The U.S. doesn't give a hoot about political freedom or any other kind
of freedom.

False.

Post by tony fernandez
They have supported and continue to support the most
repressive governments in the world Pakistan, Egypt , Saudi arabia, and
Israel.

and look at reorms started in Egypt, ...
Don't apply cold war logic to the future Tony.

PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-07 21:15:38 UTC

Your wrong again PL the U.S. doesn't give a hoot about political freedom
or any other freedom. In Egypt the pro govenrment thugs attacked the
majority party when they held a peaceful rally and the U.S. said
nothing. In Haiti when the police stormed a soccer game and then
allowed progovernment thugs to massacre people with machetes the U.S.
said nothing. Niether did the U.S. croporate media for that matter. So
wake up and smell the coffee the U.S. is an evil empire that seeks to
subjugate the rest of the world. Not that the North American people
are really aware of what is going on but the people who control the
governments are out to subjugate other contries . They attack Iraq and
continue to commit all kinds of human right violation such as torture
and murder inorder to control the world oil suply. They support what
ever dictator serves their interest no matter how brutal, just ask the
people of Izbekistan.

2005-10-08 15:22:41 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
Your wrong again PL

noipe. I am not.
You are just a dogmatic liar;

Post by tony fernandez
the U.S. doesn't give a hoot about political freedom
or any other freedom. (snip)

False as current developments show.
Stop living in the past (cold war).

PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-08 16:37:18 UTC

Still wrong PL it was you who brought the former soviet union into the
discussion and it is you who are living in the cold war. The U.S.
still seeks to subjugate the people of Latin America as is evident in
their attacks and support of the Anti-Chavez coup and their failled
attempts to force their Latin American puppet to take a stand against
Chavez. The U.S. is anti democratic but they pay lip service because
talk is cheap. The Latin People WILL be FREE from U.S. domination!!!!

2005-10-08 16:54:08 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
Still wrong PL it was you who brought the former soviet union into the
discussion

Get real.
Stop thinking in terms of a cold war that no longer exists.

PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-08 20:08:43 UTC

Your the one stuck on the cold war PL , When I state the fact that the
U.S. supports dictators all over the world You bring up the soviet
Union. You Cannot deny that the U.S. will support any dictator that
does whatever the U.S. interest dictates and so you seek to distract by
bringing up he former soviet Union. You lose , again!

2005-10-09 08:25:38 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
Your the one stuck on the cold war PL ,

Nop.

Post by tony fernandez
When I state the fact that the U.S. supports dictators all over the world
You bring up the soviet
Union.

which created the dictatorships and ran them directly you mean.

Post by tony fernandez
You Cannot deny that the U.S. will support any dictator that
does whatever the U.S. interest dictates (snip)

All I see is that even Egypt and Saudi Arabia are under pressure to become
more democratic.
I also see that Castro, the one you personally support, is a dictator.
You are a hypocrite Tony.
You attack the US for its alleged lack of condemning dictators and all you
do here is support a dictator.
You credibility is zero.

PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-09 11:17:32 UTC

Saudi Arabia is under pressure and here I thought GWB was just holding
hands with the prince lol
You PL are the one that supports dictators,
You are the one that has no credability. I merely state the truth and
you always change the subject or start on personal attacks. The U.S.
doesn't really care about democracy. The U.S. has suported and
continues to support what ever ictator supports its interest! The U.S.
also overthrows democratically elected government whenever they fail to
obey or serve their interest!

+ krp !

2005-10-09 11:41:41 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
Saudi Arabia is under pressure and here I thought GWB was just holding
hands with the prince lol
You PL are the one that supports dictators,

Like YOUR heroes..... Castro, Kim Il Jung, Pol Pot, Joe Stalin were all
DEMOCRATS!!

2005-10-09 13:32:40 UTC

Saudi Arabia is under pressure (snip)

Ok thanks for confirmi,g you were wrong.

You PL are the one that supports dictators,

Nope.
Look at my record. I have condemned both Pinochet and Castro
You are a liar.

PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-09 15:04:00 UTC

Poor PL now he is reduced to name calling. Tell me where did I lie?
Are you denying that the U.S. as and does support any dictator that
serves its interest?

2005-10-09 15:16:56 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
Poor PL now he is reduced to name calling.

Nope.
I state facts and expose your lies.

Post by tony fernandez
Tell me where did I lie?

You calim I support dictators.
that is a lie.

PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-09 16:39:04 UTC

No lie , You support the U.S. which oppresses the people of the third
world and supports the dictators that do thier dirty work such as
torture and oppression You lose agaai PL!!!

2005-10-09 17:32:38 UTC

No lie , (snip)

Yes a lie.
Quote me. We both know you can't.
I have condemned dictators from Castro to Pinochet.
I ontthe other hand can easily show you are an apologist for Fidel Castro, a
dictator on the list of Genocide Watch.
www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable.htm

PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-09 19:04:16 UTC

So PL you don't deny that the U.S. tortures people and supports and has
always supported the dictators all ove the world that serve their
interest. Do you deny that the U.S. overthrows democratically elected
governments that do not serve their intrests? You support the U.S.
tyrrany and I don't support any dictators!!!!

2005-10-09 20:18:51 UTC

So PL you don't deny that (snip)

that you support a dictator that is on Genocide Watch's lis.
www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable.htm
I support freedom and respect of human rights in Cuba.
No more, no less.

PL

tony fernandez

2005-10-09 22:31:31 UTC

I support freedom and Human rights worldwide and lots more. You PL
support the U.S. oppression of the third world.

2005-10-10 09:28:44 UTC

I support freedom and Human rights worldwide(snip)

Nope.
You support Fidel Castro that is a dictator that denies Cubans human rights
as the 70 reports linked from this page show:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm
You are a pathetic liar Tony.

PL

2005-10-10 09:54:56 UTC

I support freedom and Human rights worldwide(snip)

tony fernandez

2005-10-10 10:13:15 UTC

No you are th lier PL you support the oppreddor of all the third world
countries and I support freedom and justice for all. You lose again!!!

2005-10-10 10:27:51 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
No you are th lier PL you support the oppreddor of all the third world
countries and I support freedom and justice for all. (snip)

False Tony.
Your favorite dictator is even on Genocide Watch's list.
You can't deny you support Fidel Castro and all his abuses.

PL

+ krp !

2005-10-10 14:29:54 UTC

Post by tony fernandez
I support freedom and Human rights worldwide and lots more. You PL
support the U.S. oppression of the third world.

That's a joke. You support the Cuban and North Korean governments.

2005-10-07 12:39:53 UTC