Discussion:
Scheherezade reconsidered
(too old to reply)
William Sommerwerck
2004-12-07 13:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Yesterday I listened to the Gergiev "Scheherazade" twice, first the CD layer on
my computer, then the SACD surround version on my main system.

My view of the work has completely changed. Up to now, I found it a tediously
overlong and appallingly uninteresting/boring work. Gergiev's highly imaginative
conducting brings the work alive, without in any way being self-indulgent or
arbitrarily twisting the music to suit the conductor's mood at the moment.

After listening, I checked the reviews on Amazon. (HighFidelityReview has not
reviewed it.) The opinions are all over the place, varying from "boring" and
"overwrought" to "among the very best." I lean to the latter. The music
"unfolds" as I like it to, languorous or excited where appropriate, without ever
seeming "held back" or "rushed." The constant forward momentum is never lost,
regardless of the tempo of the moment. Very reminiscent of Stokowski at his
best, though a teensy bit less "romantic."

I haven't heard the Mackerras version, which DH likes so much. However, I
disagree that "Mackerras has never made a bad record." Perhaps DH hasn't heard
Mackerras rush through the Mozart symphonies as if he had something
more-important to do elsewhere.


I should warn audiophiles (of which I am one) that the SACD surround version is
the sonically weirdest recording I have _ever_ heard. It's very Furtwanglerish
(???!!!), varying passage-by-passage, with no overall consistency whatever. Some
passages are extremely lifelike and realistic, of almost reach-out-and-touch
quality -- while others (notably massed violins) sound -- literally -- if they
were recorded in a meat locker, with added reverb. (One of the Amazon reviewers
says "there seems [sic] to be some sound problems with that recording which I
don't quite understand.")

One Amazon reviewer commented that the sound was rather dull and lacking in HF
definition. This is what I heard on my computer speakers (Monsoon 2000), but it
was not true on my main system (Apogee Divas). The loudest passages were congest
ed (which is common for most recordings), but the lack of hardness, shrillness,
and unnatural brightness was notable.
Van Eyes
2004-12-07 18:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Yesterday I listened to the Gergiev "Scheherazade" twice, first the CD layer on
my computer, then the SACD surround version on my main system....Gergiev's highly imaginative
conducting brings the work alive, without in any way being self-indulgent....
I had the CD, and disliked everything about it, so it was gone to
"tradeland" within a day or two. This mess should not have been
released.

Regards
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
David Hurwitz
2004-12-07 19:04:39 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mygate.mailgate.org>, Van
Eyes says...
Post by Van Eyes
Post by William Sommerwerck
Yesterday I listened to the Gergiev "Scheherazade" twice, first the CD layer on
my computer, then the SACD surround version on my main system....Gergiev's
highly imaginative
conducting brings the work alive, without in any way being self-indulgent....
I had the CD, and disliked everything about it, so it was gone to
"tradeland" within a day or two. This mess should not have been
released.
Regards
I also found it to be thoroughly mediocre, and badly recorded to boot. Nothing
"imaginative" in that lackluster performance, though the couplings were much
better.

David Hurwitz
Martha Oppenheim
2004-12-07 19:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hurwitz
In article
Eyes says...
Post by Van Eyes
Post by William Sommerwerck
Yesterday I listened to the Gergiev "Scheherazade" twice, first the CD layer on
my computer, then the SACD surround version on my main
system....Gergiev's
Post by David Hurwitz
Post by Van Eyes
Post by William Sommerwerck
highly imaginative
conducting brings the work alive, without in any way being
self-indulgent....
Post by David Hurwitz
Post by Van Eyes
I had the CD, and disliked everything about it, so it was gone to
"tradeland" within a day or two. This mess should not have been
released.
Regards
I also found it to be thoroughly mediocre, and badly recorded to boot. Nothing
"imaginative" in that lackluster performance, though the couplings were much
better.
David Hurwitz
I heard only part (while driving), but hated everything I heard. Either
way too fast or way too slow.

- Russ (not Martha)
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-12-07 20:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Van Eyes
Post by William Sommerwerck
Yesterday I listened to the Gergiev "Scheherazade" twice, first the CD
layer on my computer, then the SACD surround version on my main
system....Gergiev's highly imaginative conducting brings the work
alive, without in any way being self-indulgent....
I had the CD, and disliked everything about it, so it was gone to
"tradeland" within a day or two. This mess should not have been released.
Ah, but the SACD junkies will buy it by the droves, thus "justifying" both
the performance and the medium itself, and allowing the record executives to
make their payment to their Colombian friends for the month.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Kalman Rubinson
2004-12-07 20:46:17 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 20:31:30 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Ah, but the SACD junkies will buy it by the droves, thus "justifying" both
the performance and the medium itself, and allowing the record executives to
make their payment to their Colombian friends for the month.
Doubt it. It sounds like crap from the first note and that's before
you even get to hear how awful the performance is.

Kal
Stephen Worth
2004-12-07 19:45:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
I haven't heard the Mackerras version, which DH likes so much.
I have that, but it never excited me much. I prefer the Previn and
Beecham.

See ya
Steve
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R***@aol.com
2004-12-07 20:38:20 UTC
Permalink
I have always turned to the Stokowski that was on Phase4, added bass
drum roll and all. If you don't mind the Stoky-isms, this is sure to
please. I understand it is out on Cala with extra rehearsal material
to boot.

I also like Reiner for his no-nonsense approach, Beecham (to second
Steve) for the abandon he shows, and a Koussevitzky aircheck for its
Slavic melancholy.

Ray
Post by Stephen Worth
Post by William Sommerwerck
I haven't heard the Mackerras version, which DH likes so much.
I have that, but it never excited me much. I prefer the Previn and
Beecham.
See ya
Steve
Brian Park
2004-12-08 16:52:16 UTC
Permalink
On 7 Dec 2004 12:38:20 -0800, ***@aol.com wrote:

(snip)
Post by R***@aol.com
I also like Reiner for his no-nonsense approach, Beecham (to second
Steve) for the abandon he shows, and a Koussevitzky aircheck for its
Slavic melancholy.
Ray
Save for some magical wind playing in the second movement, I have always
found Beecham's recording of Scheherazade to be overrated. The Reiner
recording, on the other hand, will always be one of my favorites,
especially with its "one take" final movement, in which the Chicago
Symphony musicians play like their lives are on the line. I can just
imagine Reiner's tiny beat managing all of that explosive sound that is
just pouring out of the orchestra.

Brian Park
MELMOTH
2004-12-08 10:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Stephen Worth nous susurrait, le 07/12/04, dans son message
Post by Stephen Worth
I have that, but it never excited me much. I prefer the Previn and
Beecham.
Khondrachin
Scherchen
Monteux
SanV
2004-12-08 20:11:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Worth
Post by William Sommerwerck
I haven't heard the Mackerras version, which DH likes so much.
I have that, but it never excited me much. I prefer the Previn and
Beecham.
See ya
Steve
I expected Beecham to whip up a lot of excitement in the Scheherazade,
but the EMI recording disappointed me, in comparison to Reiner,
Kondrashin and especially Stokowski (on Andante).
ansermetniac
2004-12-08 20:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by SanV
Post by Stephen Worth
Post by William Sommerwerck
I haven't heard the Mackerras version, which DH likes so much.
I have that, but it never excited me much. I prefer the Previn and
Beecham.
See ya
Steve
I expected Beecham to whip up a lot of excitement in the Scheherazade,
but the EMI recording disappointed me, in comparison to Reiner,
Kondrashin and especially Stokowski (on Andante).
Ansermet, The SRO recording, whips up alot of musicality

Abbedd

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Kalman Rubinson
2004-12-08 22:02:51 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 20:25:54 GMT, ansermetniac
Post by ansermetniac
Ansermet, The SRO recording, whips up alot of musicality
Agreed. I was just waiting for you to pitch in.

Kal
ansermetniac
2004-12-08 22:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kalman Rubinson
On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 20:25:54 GMT, ansermetniac
Post by ansermetniac
Ansermet, The SRO recording, whips up alot of musicality
Agreed. I was just waiting for you to pitch in.
Kal
When talking about Sheherazade the Ansermet SRO recording is a given.
And in HF, R.D. Darrell said it was the first recording to sound like
an orchestra in hall. For a third rate Orchestra, the SRO really does
a nice job.

Abbedd
________________

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"Knowing what without knowing why is not knowing what"
"If Music is important,then anti-Musicality is even more important"
___________________________________________________
"I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made."
FDR
Derek Haslam
2004-12-08 23:46:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by SanV
I expected Beecham to whip up a lot of excitement in the
Scheherazade, but the EMI recording disappointed me, in
comparison to Reiner, Kondrashin and especially
Stokowski (on Andante).
ISTR that Eugene Goossens (Everest) whipped up a lot of
excitement in the finale - about the most exciting I've
ever heard, in fact. Didn't find the other movements all
that memorable though.

Derek Haslam
--
__ __ __ __ __
/ \ | ||__ |__)/ | | |_ Derek Haslam:
\_\/ |__||__ | \\__ |__| __| Acorn/RISC OS Computer Enthusiast
\ Mastery of the rules is a pre-requisite for creatively breaking them.
David Hurwitz
2004-12-07 20:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
I haven't heard the Mackerras version, which DH likes so much. However, I
disagree that "Mackerras has never made a bad record." Perhaps DH hasn't heard
Mackerras rush through the Mozart symphonies as if he had something
more-important to do elsewhere.
Actually, Mackerras is only one of many recordings that I like so much. I would
rate some others more highly--the new Spano, Kondrashin, the Svetlanov on BBC
Legends, etc. Nor does the fact that you don't like Mackerras' Mozart mean that
those records are "bad." I don't like the approach especially either, but they
are extremely well done, and well recorded. I respect the fact that even where I
may disagree with the approach, Mackerras invariably obtains fine results and
audibly realizes his interpretive goals. That sort of professional competence
seldom receives the credit it deserves, and with Mackerras it's even more worthy
of recognition when one considers the fact that he gets such fine results as a
"guest conductor" from such a wide number of ensembles, without the benefit of
years of steady work as the official music director of the groups that he often
conducts on disc.

David Hurwitz
Ssg217
2004-12-07 23:44:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hurwitz
I would
rate some others more highly--the new Spano, Kondrashin, the Svetlanov on BBC
Legends, etc.
Silvestri as well, nu?

regards,
SG
a***@att.net
2004-12-08 02:00:35 UTC
Permalink
I rarely listen to orchestral recordings but tuned in on my car radio
to Chung conducting a French orchdestra....
sounded very nice.....direct, unfussy playing (as he plays the piano)
AB
a***@att.net
2004-12-08 02:00:53 UTC
Permalink
I rarely listen to orchestral recordings but tuned in on my car radio
to Chung conducting a French orchdestra....
sounded very nice.....direct, unfussy playing (as he plays the piano)
AB
Marc Perman
2004-12-08 03:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ssg217
Post by David Hurwitz
I would
rate some others more highly--the new Spano, Kondrashin, the Svetlanov on BBC
Legends, etc.
Silvestri as well, nu?
And Tjeknavorian.

Marc Perman
Raymond Hall
2004-12-08 06:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Perman
Post by Ssg217
Post by David Hurwitz
I would
rate some others more highly--the new Spano, Kondrashin, the Svetlanov on BBC
Legends, etc.
Silvestri as well, nu?
And Tjeknavorian.
I'll second the Tjeknavorian, and especially the other items he conducts in
a Rimsky box from Brilliant. Worth it for the Tjeknavorian items alone.
Yondani Butt does the Rimsky symphonies, which seem slightly earthbound to
these ears.

Tjeknavorian's Scheherezade slightly displaces Kondrashin, partly because
his orchestra displays (as heard by these ears) more inner detail, litheness
and colour than the mighty Concertgebouw does for Kondrashin.

Ray H
Taree
Derek Haslam
2004-12-08 23:42:28 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Raymond Hall
I'll second the Tjeknavorian, and especially the other
items he conducts in a Rimsky box from Brilliant. Worth
it for the Tjeknavorian items alone. Yondani Butt does
the Rimsky symphonies, which seem slightly earthbound to
these ears.
Tjeknavorian's Scheherezade slightly displaces
Kondrashin, partly because his orchestra displays (as
heard by these ears) more inner detail, litheness and
colour than the mighty Concertgebouw does for Kondrashin.
I'll add my vote for Tjeknavorian.

Derek Haslam
--
__ __ __ __ __
/ \ | ||__ |__)/ | | |_ Derek Haslam:
\_\/ |__||__ | \\__ |__| __| Acorn/RISC OS Computer Enthusiast
\ Mastery of the rules is a pre-requisite for creatively breaking them.
David Hurwitz
2004-12-08 16:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ssg217
Post by David Hurwitz
I would
rate some others more highly--the new Spano, Kondrashin, the Svetlanov on BBC
Legends, etc.
Silvestri as well, nu?
regards,
SG
Always!

Dave
JRsnfld
2004-12-08 06:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hurwitz
Actually, Mackerras is only one of many recordings that I like so much. I would
rate some others more highly--the new Spano, Kondrashin, the Svetlanov on BBC
Legends, etc.
Thanks for recommending that Svetlanov performance...it's a great one.

Recently I've been quite impressed with a Witold Rowicki-led performance on
Muza that Tower Records has been selling as a cut-out. I can't quite figure out
what orchestra this is (Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra "Narodowej"), but, my,
they play this piece beautifully. The phrasing is utterly perfect--sensuous yet
simple; the rhythms are joyously bouyant.

--Jeff
David Hurwitz
2004-12-08 16:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by JRsnfld
Recently I've been quite impressed with a Witold Rowicki-led performance on
Muza that Tower Records has been selling as a cut-out. I can't quite figure out
what orchestra this is (Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra "Narodowej"), but, my,
they play this piece beautifully. The phrasing is utterly perfect--sensuous yet
simple; the rhythms are joyously bouyant.
Thank YOU. I'll have to check that one out. I don't know it, but I usually find
Rowicki to be very good.

Dave
a***@aol.com
2004-12-08 16:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by JRsnfld
Recently I've been quite impressed with a Witold Rowicki-led
performance on
Post by JRsnfld
Muza that Tower Records has been selling as a cut-out. I can't quite figure out
what orchestra this is (Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra "Narodowej"), but, my,
they play this piece beautifully. The phrasing is utterly
perfect--sensuous yet
Post by JRsnfld
simple; the rhythms are joyously bouyant.
--Jeff
It is the Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
JRsnfld
2004-12-09 01:40:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by JRsnfld
Post by JRsnfld
Recently I've been quite impressed with a Witold Rowicki-led
performance on
Post by JRsnfld
Muza that Tower Records has been selling as a cut-out. I can't quite
figure out
Post by JRsnfld
what orchestra this is (Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra "Narodowej"),
but, my,
Post by JRsnfld
they play this piece beautifully. The phrasing is utterly
perfect--sensuous yet
Post by JRsnfld
simple; the rhythms are joyously bouyant.
--Jeff
It is the Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Thanks, Alan!

--Jeff
MIFrost
2004-12-08 14:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Ormandy on Sony works just fine for me. The piece is a bit "schmaltzy"
anyway.
Sunday-morning-doing-the-Times-crossword-puzzle-with-the-stereo-on
music.

MIFrost
Dan Koren
2004-12-08 07:12:47 UTC
Permalink
Scheherazade is a masterpiece.

It contains more music and higher craft than
all of Beethoven's turgid symphonies combined.



dk
Post by William Sommerwerck
Yesterday I listened to the Gergiev "Scheherazade" twice, first the CD layer on
my computer, then the SACD surround version on my main system.
My view of the work has completely changed. Up to now, I found it a tediously
overlong and appallingly uninteresting/boring work. Gergiev's highly imaginative
conducting brings the work alive, without in any way being self-indulgent or
arbitrarily twisting the music to suit the conductor's mood at the moment.
After listening, I checked the reviews on Amazon. (HighFidelityReview has not
reviewed it.) The opinions are all over the place, varying from "boring" and
"overwrought" to "among the very best." I lean to the latter. The music
"unfolds" as I like it to, languorous or excited where appropriate, without ever
seeming "held back" or "rushed." The constant forward momentum is never lost,
regardless of the tempo of the moment. Very reminiscent of Stokowski at his
best, though a teensy bit less "romantic."
I haven't heard the Mackerras version, which DH likes so much. However, I
disagree that "Mackerras has never made a bad record." Perhaps DH hasn't heard
Mackerras rush through the Mozart symphonies as if he had something
more-important to do elsewhere.
I should warn audiophiles (of which I am one) that the SACD surround version is
the sonically weirdest recording I have _ever_ heard. It's very Furtwanglerish
(???!!!), varying passage-by-passage, with no overall consistency whatever. Some
passages are extremely lifelike and realistic, of almost
reach-out-and-touch
Post by William Sommerwerck
quality -- while others (notably massed violins) sound -- literally -- if they
were recorded in a meat locker, with added reverb. (One of the Amazon reviewers
says "there seems [sic] to be some sound problems with that recording which I
don't quite understand.")
One Amazon reviewer commented that the sound was rather dull and lacking in HF
definition. This is what I heard on my computer speakers (Monsoon 2000), but it
was not true on my main system (Apogee Divas). The loudest passages were congest
ed (which is common for most recordings), but the lack of hardness, shrillness,
and unnatural brightness was notable.
Ssg217
2004-12-08 08:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Scheherazade is a masterpiece.
It contains more music and higher craft than
all of Beethoven's turgid symphonies combined.
dk
There goes that new pair of ears . . .

regards,
SG
Richard Schultz
2004-12-08 10:09:04 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mb-m17.aol.com>, Ssg217 <***@aol.com> wrote:

:>Scheherazade is a masterpiece.
:>
:>It contains more music and higher craft than
:>all of Beethoven's turgid symphonies combined.

: There goes that new pair of ears . . .

You didn't read Mr. Koren's statement carefully enough. It contains
more music than all of Beethoven's *turgid* symphonies. Since none of
Beethoven's symphonies are turgid, then all we can conclude from Mr.
Koren's comment is that Scheherezade contains an amount of music that
is greater than zero.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Dan Koren
2004-12-11 06:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
:>Scheherazade is a masterpiece.
:>
:>It contains more music and higher craft than
:>all of Beethoven's turgid symphonies combined.
: There goes that new pair of ears . . .
You didn't read Mr. Koren's statement carefully enough. It contains
more music than all of Beethoven's *turgid* symphonies. Since none of
Beethoven's symphonies are turgid, then all we can conclude from Mr.
Koren's comment is that Scheherezade contains an amount of music that
is greater than zero.
They are all very turgid, square, stiff and boring.



dk
Larry Rinkel
2004-12-26 19:59:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Richard Schultz
:>Scheherazade is a masterpiece.
:>
:>It contains more music and higher craft than
:>all of Beethoven's turgid symphonies combined.
: There goes that new pair of ears . . .
You didn't read Mr. Koren's statement carefully enough. It contains
more music than all of Beethoven's *turgid* symphonies. Since none of
Beethoven's symphonies are turgid, then all we can conclude from Mr.
Koren's comment is that Scheherezade contains an amount of music that
is greater than zero.
They are all very turgid, square, stiff and boring.
dk
If they are so boring, why are so many listeners not bored by them?
Gareth Williams
2004-12-26 20:49:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Richard Schultz
:>Scheherazade is a masterpiece.
:>
:>It contains more music and higher craft than
:>all of Beethoven's turgid symphonies combined.
: There goes that new pair of ears . . .
You didn't read Mr. Koren's statement carefully enough. It contains
more music than all of Beethoven's *turgid* symphonies.
They are all very turgid, square, stiff and boring.
You're confusing Beethoven's symphonies with cheese biscuits. You must've
had a challenging Christmas dinner and, by the same token, I'd better warn
you that your CD player needs vacuuming.
--
Regards, Gareth Williams
a***@aol.com
2004-12-08 21:53:38 UTC
Permalink
I share your enthusiasm for the piece and Rimsky was a great admirer of
Beethoven but, with respect, I think they both wrote masterpieces with
high craft and I would not wish to be without either.

I do not think it higher. I think it different. Rimsky helped change
the way people orchestrated (although Bizet's contribution before him
must not be underrated). All stand the test of time.

They certainly have something in common, I think. They sometimes wrote
music of which you can never tire and which are wonderfully written for
the players.

Trapped as I am in a recording timewarp, I would like to mention two
old recordings: Czech Philharmonic/Zdenek Chalabala (Supraphon).
Chalabala was a sort of Beecham/Bernstein cross breed conductor and
this was "his" sort of music. I do not think the LP has ever been
issued on CD which is a pity because it is a most exciting performance.


The second is a performance by Mr Leinsdorf with the "Concert Arts
Symphony Orchestra", an extremely musical performance with a wonderful
soloist (listed as Israel Baker), a harpist of exceptional quality (the
glissandi will take your breath away) and, it seems to me, an
outstanding brass section.

I assume this was a "pick up" orchestra. As Mr Ansermetniac knows
about such things he might perhaps be able to speculate about whether
this was Boston/NY personnel? The trombones are spectacular.

The snare drum player cheats (he is not alone in this) and converts his
hardest parts to a roll, which they ain't, and which is why the writing
still turns up in auditions all round the world. That aside, I still
think it a fine performance.

I have no idea how Mr Leinsdorf is rated these days (if at all) but I
have two other excellent recordings: Prokofiev Sym 6 and La Mer. In No
6 he discovers a lot more "fat beetles" than some I have encountered
and in La Mer he keeps the momentum going reminding me, also, that many
I have encountered with this work are considerably slower than the
composer marked (it may be different in other countries, of course).

Whoever the "Concert Arts Symphony Orchestra" are in Scheherazade and
La Mer I think they deserve an honorable mention.

Beethoven isn't Rimsky and Rimsky isn't Beethoven but are we not lucky
to have their diverse genius to hand?

Trying just to "arrange" two already written composer (s) has taught me
how hard the original process is. I stand in awe of all of them.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Paul Goldstein
2004-12-08 22:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
The second is a performance by Mr Leinsdorf with the "Concert Arts
Symphony Orchestra", an extremely musical performance with a wonderful
soloist (listed as Israel Baker), a harpist of exceptional quality (the
glissandi will take your breath away) and, it seems to me, an
outstanding brass section.
I assume this was a "pick up" orchestra. As Mr Ansermetniac knows
about such things he might perhaps be able to speculate about whether
this was Boston/NY personnel? The trombones are spectacular.
Los Angeles personnel, I think.
Post by a***@aol.com
The snare drum player cheats (he is not alone in this) and converts his
hardest parts to a roll, which they ain't, and which is why the writing
still turns up in auditions all round the world. That aside, I still
think it a fine performance.
I quite agree. Also, the early stereo sound is superb, not quite
Mercury-quality but pretty close.
Post by a***@aol.com
I have no idea how Mr Leinsdorf is rated these days (if at all) but I
have two other excellent recordings: Prokofiev Sym 6 and La Mer. In No
6 he discovers a lot more "fat beetles" than some I have encountered
and in La Mer he keeps the momentum going reminding me, also, that many
I have encountered with this work are considerably slower than the
composer marked (it may be different in other countries, of course).
A couple of more Scheherazades not yet mentioned but outstanding: Oskar Fried
(Koch Historical) and Bernstein (Sony). I continue to admire the Boughton
(Nimbus) as well, but some find it terrible.
--
Paul Goldstein
Mark Perlman
2004-12-09 17:13:09 UTC
Permalink
I just recently went through a bunch of the recordings I have of
Scheherazade, and found the Bernstein NY on SONY pretty unsatisfying. The NY
Phil is pretty sloppy at times, and Lenny seems to do certain things for no
musical reason - just to put his mark on it.

I found Reiner great though at time too fast, and settled on Beecham's RPO
on EMI as my overall favorite. He really puts more verve in it than anyone,
while being utterly musical throughout.
Post by Paul Goldstein
Post by a***@aol.com
The second is a performance by Mr Leinsdorf with the "Concert Arts
Symphony Orchestra", an extremely musical performance with a wonderful
soloist (listed as Israel Baker), a harpist of exceptional quality (the
glissandi will take your breath away) and, it seems to me, an
outstanding brass section.
I assume this was a "pick up" orchestra. As Mr Ansermetniac knows
about such things he might perhaps be able to speculate about whether
this was Boston/NY personnel? The trombones are spectacular.
Los Angeles personnel, I think.
Post by a***@aol.com
The snare drum player cheats (he is not alone in this) and converts his
hardest parts to a roll, which they ain't, and which is why the writing
still turns up in auditions all round the world. That aside, I still
think it a fine performance.
I quite agree. Also, the early stereo sound is superb, not quite
Mercury-quality but pretty close.
Post by a***@aol.com
I have no idea how Mr Leinsdorf is rated these days (if at all) but I
have two other excellent recordings: Prokofiev Sym 6 and La Mer. In No
6 he discovers a lot more "fat beetles" than some I have encountered
and in La Mer he keeps the momentum going reminding me, also, that many
I have encountered with this work are considerably slower than the
composer marked (it may be different in other countries, of course).
A couple of more Scheherazades not yet mentioned but outstanding: Oskar Fried
(Koch Historical) and Bernstein (Sony). I continue to admire the Boughton
(Nimbus) as well, but some find it terrible.
--
Paul Goldstein
CNDA
2004-12-11 06:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Perlman
I found Reiner great though at time too fast, and settled on Beecham's RPO
on EMI as my overall favorite. He really puts more verve in it than anyone,
while being utterly musical throughout.
I agree with that. You have better sound but, Mr. Reiner, I knew Sir
Thomas Beecham and you're not Mr. Beecham.

Just kidding, I love them both.

César.
a***@aol.com
2004-12-08 22:01:55 UTC
Permalink
I share your enthusiasm for the piece and Rimsky was a great admirer of
Beethoven but, with respect, I think they both wrote masterpieces with
high craft and I would not wish to be without either.

I do not think it higher. I think it different. Rimsky helped change
the way people orchestrated (although Bizet's contribution before him
must not be underrated). All stand the test of time.

They certainly have something in common, I think. They sometimes wrote
music of which you can never tire and which are wonderfully written for
the players.

Trapped as I am in a recording timewarp, I would like to mention two
old recordings: Czech Philharmonic/Zdenek Chalabala (Supraphon).
Chalabala was a sort of Beecham/Bernstein cross breed conductor and
this was "his" sort of music. I do not think the LP has ever been
issued on CD which is a pity because it is a most exciting performance.


The second is a performance by Mr Leinsdorf with the "Concert Arts
Symphony Orchestra", an extremely musical performance with a wonderful
soloist (listed as Israel Baker), a harpist of exceptional quality (the
glissandi will take your breath away) and, it seems to me, an
outstanding brass section.

I assume this was a "pick up" orchestra. As Mr Ansermetniac knows
about such things he might perhaps be able to speculate about whether
this was Boston/NY personnel? The trombones are spectacular.

The snare drum player cheats (he is not alone in this) and converts his
hardest parts to a roll, which they ain't, and which is why the writing
still turns up in auditions all round the world. That aside, I still
think it a fine performance.

I have no idea how Mr Leinsdorf is rated these days (if at all) but I
have two other excellent recordings: Prokofiev Sym 6 and La Mer. In No
6 he discovers a lot more "fat beetles" than some I have encountered
and in La Mer he keeps the momentum going reminding me, also, that many
I have encountered with this work are considerably slower than the
composer marked (it may be different in other countries, of course).

Whoever the "Concert Arts Symphony Orchestra" are in Scheherazade and
La Mer I think they deserve an honorable mention.

Beethoven isn't Rimsky and Rimsky isn't Beethoven but are we not lucky
to have their diverse genius to hand?

Trying just to "arrange" already written composer (s) has taught me how
hard the original process is. I stand in awe of all of them.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
david gideon
2004-12-08 22:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
The second is a performance by Mr Leinsdorf with the "Concert Arts
Symphony Orchestra", an extremely musical performance with a wonderful
soloist (listed as Israel Baker), a harpist of exceptional quality (the
glissandi will take your breath away) and, it seems to me, an
outstanding brass section. I assume this was a "pick up" orchestra. As Mr Ansermetniac knows
about such things he might perhaps be able to speculate about whether
this was Boston/NY personnel?
Israel Baker was (perhaps still is!) an excellent violinist--a friend
of Heifetz. Capitol used the "Concert Arts" designation for sessions in
both NY and Los Angeles. Mr Baker has also appeared on a number of jazz
and soundtrack recordings, which seems to make LA the more likely venue
(probably drawn from the LA Philharmonic and movie studio players).

dg
--
CD issues of long-unavailable classic performances from Scherchen, Stokowski,
Paray, Steinberg, and more, exclusively at: http://www.rediscovery.us
a***@aol.com
2004-12-09 00:41:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by david gideon
Israel Baker was (perhaps still is!) an excellent violinist--a friend
of Heifetz. Capitol used the "Concert Arts" designation for sessions in
both NY and Los Angeles. Mr Baker has also appeared on a number of jazz
and soundtrack recordings, which seems to make LA the more likely venue
(probably drawn from the LA Philharmonic and movie studio players).
dg
Just as I thought, a sideman:):) Blimey, Leindsorf, jazz, soundtracks,
reading at sight. What next?

Or as the original Mr Taverner put it many centuries ago: "I am onlye a
musiciane."

Thank you for the information. Wonderful playing.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
JRsnfld
2004-12-09 01:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
Post by a***@aol.com
The second is a performance by Mr Leinsdorf with the "Concert Arts
Symphony Orchestra", an extremely musical performance with a wonderful
soloist (listed as Israel Baker), a harpist of exceptional quality (the
glissandi will take your breath away) and, it seems to me, an
outstanding brass section. I assume this was a "pick up" orchestra. As Mr
Ansermetniac knows
Post by a***@aol.com
about such things he might perhaps be able to speculate about whether
this was Boston/NY personnel?
Israel Baker was (perhaps still is!) an excellent violinist--a friend
of Heifetz. Capitol used the "Concert Arts" designation for sessions in
both NY and Los Angeles. Mr Baker has also appeared on a number of jazz
and soundtrack recordings, which seems to make LA the more likely venue
(probably drawn from the LA Philharmonic and movie studio players).
dg
I've been considering buying this CD for a while, but really want to know who
the star soloists are...the oboe and clarinet, of course...in this recording.
Anyone know?

(There's a violin solo in Scheherazade, too?)

--Jeff
Derek Haslam
2004-12-08 23:43:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Scheherazade is a masterpiece.
It contains more music and higher craft than
all of Beethoven's turgid symphonies combined.
That should have been placed inside pseudo-html tags
<trolling>, </trolling>

Derek Haslam
--
__ __ __ __ __
/ \ | ||__ |__)/ | | |_ Derek Haslam:
\_\/ |__||__ | \\__ |__| __| Acorn/RISC OS Computer Enthusiast
\ Mastery of the rules is a pre-requisite for creatively breaking them.
David Hurwitz
2004-12-09 01:53:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Scheherazade is a masterpiece.
It contains more music and higher craft than
all of Beethoven's turgid symphonies combined.
dk
Yes, just as Poulenc's Mouvements perpetuels utterly vanquish the Beethoven
piano sonatas. It's all so obvious!

David Hurwitz
Simon Roberts
2004-12-09 04:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Scheherazade is a masterpiece.
It contains more music and higher craft than
all of Beethoven's turgid symphonies combined.
As Monteux reputedly responded when someone told him "I think Brahms is boring",
yes, but it doesn't matter.

Simon
p***@hotmail.com
2004-12-08 17:43:14 UTC
Permalink
Stokowski recorded the work five times. In 1927 and again in 1934 with
the Philadelphia Orchestra. In 1951 with the Philharmonia Orchestra,
1964 with the London Symphony Orchestra and finally in 1975 with the
Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. My first five choices for the work would
be from the recordings cited with the two Philadelphia performances
heading the list. After that Reiner and Beecham.

Peter Schenkman
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