Post by Fuad AbiadI also think the the Christians community in Lebanon has been
ready for a fully secular state for a long time.
It now urgently needs representatives to push this point.
the difference between us is not on the need for a sense of urgency,
it's over the feasibility of translating it on the ground. I've been
wishing since march that the momentum of the uprising will take
everything by storm, but it's only natural that we're running up
against entrenched mentalities, if not entrenched forces of the old
regime. yet as I said before I'm not complaining, a LOT has been
achieved in terms of liberation, and if now the internal transformation
takes a while, then maybe it will be for our own good. I've personally
been advocating a quick change of attitude in general and especially in
the ranks I come from because I believe if you don't adapt quickly to
the new reality, you will be left behind, yet this has not been
forthcoming in any ranks I would say, not just ours. how you go about
speeding this up is what you are talking about below, and I will tell
you what I know on that.
Post by Fuad AbiadIt's not. I have the same worries since I share through the trick of
infant baptism in this status. What I am saying is how does one address
these worries. Apart from the need to have a new secular proactive and
progressive party, I'm advocating the model that a model similar to what the
American Jewish community developed. I'm not talking about their famed
political influence on Israeli issues. I'm talking about institutions like
the ACLU. Their determined push to enforce the bill of rights.
again, I agree because I think change is not structural only or in
texts, but needs to happen in individuals first to preempt the natural
tendency of resisting change (just think back to change in any company
you've worked in). a successful transformation needs to happen at
multiple levels and in a multi-pronged approach, with people at the
center, not only mou'assaset siyesiyeh but also madaniyeh, idarieh,
tarbawiyeh, we all agree on that. the more comprehensive this is, the
more it will be stable in the long run, but also the more time it will
take to setup. unless you're counting on bush to deliver all of these
overnight :)
Post by Fuad AbiadIn the same way that we don't really understand why any deviation from
slightly managed capitalism leads to disaster. It is clear that the only and
most successful political model is the western model.
So yes, unless one is prepared to go on an adventure the only solution is a
carbon copy of the western model.
I obviously disagree on this one, western models are not the only
successful ones out there, in fact the entire sustainability movement
today coming out of cambridge university in the heart of england is
strongly putting in question the long-term viability of the western
model which is good for rapid growth but terrible from a sustainability
perspective. take japan for example, this is a western model in
principle but strongly adapted culturally to eastern ways of doing
things in practice. as for the analogy about free economy, I also
don't think it's a good one in this context, it's only good when you
compare it to the failed models, but the verdict is still out on it,
especially in economics today, but that's not the point I want to make
really, the point is that the two concepts are not comparable. and if
we go with this analogy, then it's an argument against the forceful
policy setting you're advocating for, so without getting stuck on why
this is a bad analogy, let me just say that I am strongly against
carbon copying anything from the west without local adaptation, even
secularism. we are a region who gave religion to the world, this is
our heritage, we need to embrace it in a clever way like western
secularism but not necessarily exactly like it. even the bland western
culture is today having a backlash against their own application of it,
at the slightest challenge they're falling back on religious
fanaticism, that's not something worth carbon copying in my opinion,
not when you're so up close and personal with these types of issues.
Post by Fuad AbiadI'm saying if the horse doesn't drink he will be thirsty.
that's a good one, I like it :)
Post by Fuad AbiadIt indeed is about shoving rules down peoples throats. Look at the western
experience with women's rights and anti racism legislation.
look how the work place has changed since the laws were enacted.
Laws are not there to prevent people from thinking things. They are their to
protect from people's actions. People get used to it and small groups can
successfully advocate for it.
but we're talking about the equivalent of drafting a new constitution,
a new form of government, not about discrimination issues only. this is
the difference here, this is why you need to make sure you have
consensus and buy-in here. even when you're already on solid ground,
forcing the application of a policy can spark a civil war like the
racism issue, or at least instability like the segregation issue. we're
not even at the stage of a solid ground. but, let me make clear that
I'm not saying wait for the widest consensus possible, the ground may
not be solid but like you said it's fertile, so the question to me is
not about trying to take to advantage as quickly as possible, it's
about how you go about doing that, there are many roads to rome.
Post by Fuad AbiadI'm talking about laws that mainly regulate the behavior of government
institutions. A situation in which no government activity can in any
way be related to religion. Take the bibles and the Korans out of government
schools. Take crosses of public hospital. No government privileges to the
clergy. No public money to religious projects.
agreed, I can;t think of anyone who will complain about this (though to
my knowledge there aren;t any crosses in public hospitals, only private
ones).
Post by Fuad AbiadIt is a call for well meaning people concerned with the well being
of the Christian community to "leave" the LF. Not a call to
hide the Christian identity.
I don't know about that, it's all about interpretation and perception,
who makes the call, who determines what percentage of migration is good
enough, etc... anyway I see your point, again we don't see eye to eye
on implementation but the need for transition is clear.
Post by Fuad Abiadba'ellon roo7u 3ala ljAmi3a, t3alamu.
they are all doing that, on all sides not just the LF, but please don't
get me started on this topic, this country (usa) has turned education
from a calling to an all-you-can-eat buffet, you can study the night
before the test and pass with anything from an A to a D and you're
suddenly "educated". you know elias murr is an engineer, just like
fred salvucci is an engineer, bass his tribal retrogressive mentality
tells me he didn't learn anything wala engineering wise wala
intellectual thought wise, for most people education and universities
are a way to get a license to work and earn generic respect, but god
forbid it has to mean that they have to think about anything. like I
said, don't get me started on this, if we had universities that give
students something more than instruction and a place to conduct student
elections over the same basic instincts, the whole world would have
been a much better place.
Post by Fuad AbiadIn summary become thoroughly western in your political outlook.
you've made your preference crystal clear and I appreciate that, to
some extent I agree and to a large extent I disagree personally, but
your position is certainly defensible from an overall track record
perspective.
Post by Fuad AbiadI've met some of these kids and I don't think that they are rightists
in the usual sense.
yes, thank you for recognizing that, that's another first and a welcome
change from the days of the black and white labeling. I have given up
on arguing against that, if one insists on calling me a spade, I will
do my best to be a spade.
Post by Fuad Abiadthe worst are zu3ran whose only regret in life is that they weren't born ten
years earlier and got to shoot someone.
just to qualify that in terms of the lebanese finger pointing
mentality, this group exists on all sides and there is no indication of
a higher percentage of those people in one group over the other, my
strong conviction is that we don't have a nazi party in lebanon, as
much as some people would like to simplify it this way. otherwise I
agree, the issue is about better options.
regards,
marc