USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

[Peter Tomlinson]

In the US they have a Presidential Directive:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040827-8.html

but in the UK...

I'm sure this will use the GSC-IS spec, which is the generalised version
of the spec for the military CAC. As reported before, it includes space
for the material facts from the card holder's personnel file.

Peter

"Homeland Security Presidential Directive/Hspd-12

Subject: Policy for a Common Identification Standard for Federal
Employees and Contractors

(1) Wide variations in the quality and security of forms of
identification used to gain access to secure Federal and other
facilities where there is potential for terrorist attacks need to be
eliminated. Therefore, it is the policy of the United States to enhance
security, increase Government efficiency, reduce identity fraud, and
protect personal privacy by establishing a mandatory, Government-wide
standard for secure and reliable forms of identification issued by the
Federal Government to its employees and contractors (including
contractor employees).

(2) To implement the policy set forth in paragraph (1), the Secretary
of Commerce shall promulgate in accordance with applicable law a Federal
standard for secure and reliable forms of identification (the
"Standard") not later than 6 months after the date of this directive in
consultation with the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, the
Attorney General, the Secretary of Homeland Security, the Director of
the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), and the Director of the
Office of Science and Technology Policy. The Secretary of Commerce shall
periodically review the Standard and update the Standard as appropriate
in consultation with the affected agencies.

(3) "Secure and reliable forms of identification" for purposes of this
directive means identification that (a) is issued based on sound
criteria for verifying an individual employee's identity; (b) is
strongly resistant to identity fraud, tampering, counterfeiting, and
terrorist exploitation; (c) can be rapidly authenticated electronically;
and (d) is issued only by providers whose reliability has been
established by an official accreditation process. The Standard will
include graduated criteria, from least secure to most secure, to ensure
flexibility in selecting the appropriate level of security for each
application.

(4) Not later than 4 months following promulgation of the Standard,
the heads of executive departments and agencies shall have a program in
place to ensure that identification issued by their departments and
agencies to Federal employees and contractors meets the Standard." ...

<snip>
and

" (6) This directive shall be implemented in a manner consistent with
the Constitution and applicable laws, including the Privacy Act (5
U.S.C. 552a) and other statutes protecting the rights of Americans."

[Roland Perry]

Post by Peter Tomlinson
I'm sure this will use the GSC-IS spec, which is the generalised
version of the spec for the military CAC

"By March 2004, five years since the origin of the project, 4.5
million CACs will have been issued to DoD employees, military
personal, and civilian contractors. A number of large military
facilities are successfully using the CAC in conjunction with
access control systems developed by AMAG Technology specifically
for federal applications."

With apparently a big deployment in the Pentagon; developed and
manufactured by Group 4 in Tewkesbury, UK.

[Peter Tomlinson]

Activcard is another company (originally French, I believe, but now
firmly international) heavily involved in the CAC, particularly in the
systems for issuing cards and managing the card population. And I keep
seeing quotes from press releases issued by numerous companies saying
they have won a slice of the action.

Because the CAC was developed in conjunction with mutiple suppliers,
there is interchangeability of components and systems. Also there is a
guaranteed market. The same should happen with the federal card. (Not
that CAC deployment has been without interoperability problems or
without difficulty handling the growing hot-list of lost and blocked cards.)

Peter

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Peter Tomlinson
I'm sure this will use the GSC-IS spec, which is the generalised
version of the spec for the military CAC

"By March 2004, five years since the origin of the project, 4.5
million CACs will have been issued to DoD employees, military
personal, and civilian contractors. A number of large military
facilities are successfully using the CAC in conjunction with
access control systems developed by AMAG Technology specifically
for federal applications."
With apparently a big deployment in the Pentagon; developed and
manufactured by Group 4 in Tewkesbury, UK.

[Roland Perry]

(Not that CAC deployment has been without interoperability problems or
without difficulty handling the growing hot-list of lost and blocked cards.)

I find it encouraging when we discover these large roll-out programmes,
as they will serve to debug the technology *ahead* of a mass deployment
of UK ID cards. Some will be hoping that bugs are insuperable, I'm sure.
But it's far from the green field that is often suggested (and is to
some extent implied by the Home Office trial).

[Peter Tomlinson]

There are several European smart ID card deployments (some just
voluntary add-ons to existing methods), both inside and outside the EU,
all different in their technology and attitude to the scope and type of
data stored on the cards. Certainly my current experience of talking to
UK public sector people in or knowing about the central spending depts
and agencies is that, in the big monolithic projects, their eyes are
firmly on the grounds of their own projects. The smaller projects and
the distributed projects are the ones to watch.

eGU (successor to OeE) has let a small contract to collect info about
all public sector e-Gov work.

Peter

Post by Roland Perry

(Not that CAC deployment has been without interoperability problems or
without difficulty handling the growing hot-list of lost and blocked cards.)

I find it encouraging when we discover these large roll-out programmes,
as they will serve to debug the technology *ahead* of a mass deployment
of UK ID cards. Some will be hoping that bugs are insuperable, I'm sure.
But it's far from the green field that is often suggested (and is to
some extent implied by the Home Office trial).

[Ian Johnson]

Post by Roland Perry
I find it encouraging when we discover these large roll-out programmes,
as they will serve to debug the technology *ahead* of a mass deployment
of UK ID cards. Some will be hoping that bugs are insuperable, I'm sure.

Different sorts of bugs I would think. Issuing people cards *they want*
has a totally different threat model to ID cards. Firstly people
aren't going to be deliberately losing or damaging them, secondly the
incentive to criminals to fake a national ID card would be very high.

Regards,

Ian

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian Johnson

Post by Roland Perry
I find it encouraging when we discover these large roll-out programmes,
as they will serve to debug the technology *ahead* of a mass deployment
of UK ID cards. Some will be hoping that bugs are insuperable, I'm sure.

Different sorts of bugs I would think. Issuing people cards *they want*
has a totally different threat model to ID cards.

Although the UK ID cards will be piggy-backed on people who *want* a
driving licence or a passport.

Post by Ian Johnson
Firstly people aren't going to be deliberately losing or damaging them,

See above.

Post by Ian Johnson
secondly the
incentive to criminals to fake a national ID card would be very high.

Whereas terrorists have no incentive to forge a card to get into a US
military (and now federal) site?

[Ian Johnson]

Post by Roland Perry
Although the UK ID cards will be piggy-backed on people who *want* a
driving licence or a passport.

It's very rare I need either. I tend to only need my passport in
August,
and I can't remember the last time I needed my driving licence.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian Johnson
Firstly people aren't going to be deliberately losing or damaging them,

See above.

What happens will depend on the system that is imposed, what happens if
an electronic passport is non-functioning? how quickly and at what cost
can they be replaced?

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian Johnson
secondly the
incentive to criminals to fake a national ID card would be very high.

Whereas terrorists have no incentive to forge a card to get into a US
military (and now federal) site?

The motivation and numbers are probably very different. Career
criminals
for example are almost certainly more numerous and tend to want to
continue
to live.

Regards,

Ian

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian Johnson

Post by Roland Perry
Although the UK ID cards will be piggy-backed on people who *want* a
driving licence or a passport.

It's very rare I need either. I tend to only need my passport in
August, and I can't remember the last time I needed my driving licence.

What I forgot to add was that this would mop up perhaps 80% of the
population. The other 20% will at least be joining a scheme that's
running smoothly by then.

Post by Ian Johnson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian Johnson
Firstly people aren't going to be deliberately losing or damaging them,

See above.

What happens will depend on the system that is imposed, what happens if
an electronic passport is non-functioning? how quickly and at what cost
can they be replaced?

We've done the replacement thing to death already. Should be a trip to
the nearest High Street and a thumbprint.

Post by Ian Johnson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian Johnson
secondly the
incentive to criminals to fake a national ID card would be very high.

Whereas terrorists have no incentive to forge a card to get into a US
military (and now federal) site?

The motivation and numbers are probably very different. Career
criminals for example are almost certainly more numerous and tend to
want to continue to live.

Yes, I agree that there will be an element of arms race in this. There
always is.

[Ian Johnson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian Johnson
What happens will depend on the system that is imposed, what happens if
an electronic passport is non-functioning? how quickly and at what cost
can they be replaced?

We've done the replacement thing to death already. Should be a trip to
the nearest High Street and a thumbprint.

I think you missed my point. if HMG offers free replacement in the high
street
(which I feel they should) mine will need replacing *at least* daily,
I'm very careless you see :)

Lets say my passport had undergone several very severe thermal shocks. I
turn
up to board a flight with it, but the chip is non functioning - what
happens
if this is the case for say, half the passengers?

My real point was supportive and cooperative users versus a significant
number
who if offered a spanner will throw it in the works.

Ian

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 08 September 2004 16:56
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors
Lets say my passport had undergone several very severe thermal shocks. I
turn
up to board a flight with it, but the chip is non functioning - what
happens
if this is the case for say, half the passengers?

Then you - or half the passengers will miss your flight. This will
inconvenience you/them but not the other passengers nor the airline.

My real point was supportive and cooperative users versus a significant
number
who if offered a spanner will throw it in the works.

Nah. You'll have to come up with something better.

BTW, you make the argument well for ensuring that replacements are issued
only at full cost. Personally, I can't see any reasonable option to that
but, if only for the presentational advantages, I think that the initial
card issue really should be made 'free of charge'. Of course as we all know
nothing in life is free but central funding of the initial issue of all
cards would be a smart move methinks.

Owen

[Roland Perry]

Post by Owen Lewis
BTW, you make the argument well for ensuring that replacements are issued
only at full cost. Personally, I can't see any reasonable option to that
but, if only for the presentational advantages, I think that the initial
card issue really should be made 'free of charge'. Of course as we all know
nothing in life is free but central funding of the initial issue of all
cards would be a smart move methinks.

Once again, let's look at historical precedent rather than merely
speculating. Look at things like the cost of replacing an existing card
driving licence in various jurisdictions (in the UK, address changes are
free, but a lost card is £19). Or replacing a railway season ticket
(free, but three strikes and you are out).

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 08 September 2004 19:32
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Owen Lewis
BTW, you make the argument well for ensuring that replacements are issued
only at full cost. Personally, I can't see any reasonable option to that
but, if only for the presentational advantages, I think that the initial
card issue really should be made 'free of charge'. Of course as

we all know

Post by Owen Lewis
nothing in life is free but central funding of the initial issue of all
cards would be a smart move methinks.

Once again, let's look at historical precedent rather than merely
speculating. Look at things like the cost of replacing an existing card
driving licence in various jurisdictions (in the UK, address changes are
free, but a lost card is £19). Or replacing a railway season ticket
(free, but three strikes and you are out).

So what point is it you wish to make? Is there some central thread in that
collection?

Owen

[Roland Perry]

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Owen Lewis
nothing in life is free but central funding of the initial issue of all
cards would be a smart move methinks.

Once again, let's look at historical precedent rather than merely
speculating. Look at things like the cost of replacing an existing card
driving licence in various jurisdictions (in the UK, address changes are
free, but a lost card is £19). Or replacing a railway season ticket
(free, but three strikes and you are out).

So what point is it you wish to make? Is there some central thread in that
collection?

You suggested a free "initial issue", but this seems unlikely given the
current initial issue costs of passport and driving licence, and the
passport agency is run as a cost centre (with costs predicted to
increase as biometrics are introduced).

Certain kinds of replacement are currently free (for example the lost
season ticket or the UK-DL change of address) and others seem to have an
element of "fine" about them (losing your counterpart or card licence
are both as bad as one another at £19 - seems a bit steep for a piece of
A4). Replacing a lost UK passport seems to cost as much as a new one,
and requires a new application as well as the form 'fessing up to the
loss.

Over the water in the USA, a change of DL address is free once every 4
years, and more frequent moves or lost licences cost $15. A lost or
stolen USA Green Card is a stunning $185, and after naturalisation,
don't lose your certificate because that's $210 to replace.

So, on balance, I think that a replacement for a lost UK-ID might well
cost in the region of £20, with initial issue predicted to be somewhat
higher than current passport or DL fees.

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 08 September 2004 21:08
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Owen Lewis
nothing in life is free but central funding of the initial

issue of all

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Owen Lewis
cards would be a smart move methinks.

Once again, let's look at historical precedent rather than merely
speculating. Look at things like the cost of replacing an existing card
driving licence in various jurisdictions (in the UK, address

changes are

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Roland Perry
free, but a lost card is £19). Or replacing a railway season ticket
(free, but three strikes and you are out).

So what point is it you wish to make? Is there some central

thread in that

Post by Owen Lewis
collection?

You suggested a free "initial issue", but this seems unlikely given the
current initial issue costs of passport and driving licence, and the
passport agency is run as a cost centre (with costs predicted to
increase as biometrics are introduced).

The point is that if issue is to be mandatory then it'd sugar the pill for
some if the issue was 'free'. Forty quid to someone whose only income is
sixty-five a week is a near back-breaking sum to be told you *have* to
spend. OTOH for those on a daily fee rate of a thousand it's no more than
another round of drinks. Zo eeesily zey forget, nie?

Of course it'd not be free but that's beside the point. No one (normally)
insists that you buy a passport of a driving licence and therefore your
comparison is not good. N.B for those who *are* required to acquire either
or both of passport and driving licence, issue *is* free in my experience.


Owen

[Roland Perry]

Post by Owen Lewis
The point is that if issue is to be mandatory then it'd sugar the pill for
some if the issue was 'free'.

Yes, I understand that, but unless the issuing agencies are completely
re-financed (so ask Gordon Brown for money) it won't happen.

Post by Owen Lewis
No one (normally)
insists that you buy a passport of a driving licence and therefore your
comparison is not good. N.B for those who *are* required to acquire either
or both of passport and driving licence, issue *is* free in my experience.

I've been required to get or keep (ie re-new when required) both by
various employers. There's never been any suggestion that I could recoup
the cost.

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 08 September 2004 22:20
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Owen Lewis
No one (normally)
insists that you buy a passport of a driving licence and therefore your
comparison is not good. N.B for those who *are* required to

acquire either

Post by Owen Lewis
or both of passport and driving licence, issue *is* free in my

experience.
I've been required to get or keep (ie re-new when required) both by
various employers. There's never been any suggestion that I could recoup
the cost.

I suggest that all you have been required to do is to decide to purchase one
or both of those documents or to change/refuse that employment. This is just
not the same are being told unconditionally that you *must* possess these
items.

In cases such are yours, I suggest that you are offered a contract of
employment that has certain terms and conditions. Amongst these may be a
requirement, express or implied, to possess and maintain a passport and/or a
driving licence. I suggest to you that if you take such employment you do so
having decided that the emoluments offered with the package are sufficient
to re-imburse you fully for the expense of these personal outgoings. If the
possession of these documents were not stipulated in your contract, either
expressly or by reasonable implication, then your employer needs to
reimburse you for these expenses (by one means or another) if, later, this
requirement is placed upon you.

Surely, you agree?

Owen

--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Roland Perry
I've been required to get or keep (ie re-new when required) both by
various employers. There's never been any suggestion that I could recoup
the cost.

I suggest that all you have been required to do is to decide to purchase one
or both of those documents or to change/refuse that employment.

Oh please! That's a bankrupt argument usually heard from single young
men with highly portable job skills working in a market where they'll be
snapped up overnight. Not everyone fits that description.

Post by Owen Lewis
This is just not the same are being told unconditionally that you
*must* possess these items.

Plenty of job descriptions include "must have [clean] driving licence"
and "some element of foreign travel is involved".

Post by Owen Lewis
In cases such are yours, I suggest that you are offered a contract of
employment that has certain terms and conditions. Amongst these may be a
requirement, express or implied, to possess and maintain a passport and/or a
driving licence. I suggest to you that if you take such employment you do so
having decided that the emoluments offered with the package are sufficient
to re-imburse you fully for the expense of these personal outgoings.

In which case, please explain what you meant by:

N.B for those who *are* required to acquire either or both of
passport and driving licence, issue *is* free in my experience.

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 09 September 2004 10:17
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Roland Perry
I've been required to get or keep (ie re-new when required) both by
various employers. There's never been any suggestion that I

could recoup

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Roland Perry
the cost.

I suggest that all you have been required to do is to decide to

purchase one

Post by Owen Lewis
or both of those documents or to change/refuse that employment.

Oh please! That's a bankrupt argument usually heard from single young
men with highly portable job skills working in a market where they'll be
snapped up overnight. Not everyone fits that description.

I see no argument bur an observation of fact.

Post by Owen Lewis
This is just not the same are being told unconditionally that you
*must* possess these items.

Plenty of job descriptions include "must have [clean] driving licence"
and "some element of foreign travel is involved".

Post by Owen Lewis
In cases such are yours, I suggest that you are offered a contract of
employment that has certain terms and conditions. Amongst these may be a
requirement, express or implied, to possess and maintain a

passport and/or a

Post by Owen Lewis
driving licence. I suggest to you that if you take such

employment you do so

Post by Owen Lewis
having decided that the emoluments offered with the package are

sufficient

Post by Owen Lewis
to re-imburse you fully for the expense of these personal outgoings.

N.B for those who *are* required to acquire either or both of
passport and driving licence, issue *is* free in my experience.

To my knowledge certain govt servants. For example, possession of either a
passport or a driving licence, clean or otherwise, are a prerequisite for
induction into military service but may become requisite at some time
thereafter, according to the 'exigencies of the Service'

It used to be (and may well still be) that joining the Armed Services was
the only route to possession of an HGV1 licence at age 17.5. Serve a three
year hitch and come out as a highly employable HGV1 driver with three years
experience and, quite possibly, some supervisory qualification and
experience to boot (one of those young men with 'highly portable job skills'
you were talking about) and at an age when your civvie contemporaries have a
further six months to wait before they can even begin HGV1 training and get
wet behind the ears.

And, AFAIK, *no one* has ever paid for a diplomatic passport. ISTR too that
ordinary passports are also free issue to all govt servants required to live
overseas. In most cases, they'd be paid rather less than you though :-)

Swings and roundabouts?

Owen

[Roland Perry]

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Owen Lewis
I suggest that all you have been required to do is to decide to

purchase one

Post by Owen Lewis
or both of those documents or to change/refuse that employment.

Oh please! That's a bankrupt argument usually heard from single young
men with highly portable job skills working in a market where they'll be
snapped up overnight. Not everyone fits that description.

I see no argument bur an observation of fact.

It's a fact that I can jump in front of a train. Doesn't make it very
practical way of conducting my life.

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Owen Lewis
N.B for those who *are* required to acquire either or both of
passport and driving licence, issue *is* free in my experience.

To my knowledge certain govt servants.

Oh, so they don't get to make this choice between a job and
unemployment, how nice of the taxpayer to stump up for their Driving
Licence and Passports.

Post by Owen Lewis
In most cases, they'd be paid rather less than you though :-)

Currently they'd be paid rather more.

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 09 September 2004 16:31
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Owen Lewis
I suggest that all you have been required to do is to decide to

purchase one

Post by Owen Lewis
or both of those documents or to change/refuse that employment.

Oh please! That's a bankrupt argument usually heard from single young
men with highly portable job skills working in a market where

they'll be

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Owen Lewis
snapped up overnight. Not everyone fits that description.

I see no argument bur an observation of fact.

It's a fact that I can jump in front of a train. Doesn't make it very
practical way of conducting my life.

Well, if you choose to cast yourself as a wage-slave in one of Gradgrind's
mills, that is surely your privilege,

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Owen Lewis
N.B for those who *are* required to acquire either or both of
passport and driving licence, issue *is* free in my experience.

To my knowledge certain govt servants.

Oh, so they don't get to make this choice between a job and
unemployment,

Well, not on the basis of whether they possess a driving licence and
passport anyway. However, lack of a birth certificate can be somewhat of a
stumbling block, though not an insuperable one.

how nice of the taxpayer to stump up for their Driving
Licence and Passports.

Tsk tsk... are you *sure* you want to be a Euro-MP? :) The truth of course
is that govt, rightly, does not expect, its servants to subsidise the public
exchequer by the private purchase of any document prerequisite to the
performance of some public service that, through one of its departments, it
has itself ordered.

This type of practise is by no means unique to govt service; a whole range
of industries either pay the total or else heavily subsidise the acquisition
of documents necessary to perform some duty on their behalf. PSV licences
are one example and commercial pilots' licences may be another

In the case of those who are required to live abroad, there are relocation
packages. In the case of those not required to take up residency abroad but
merely to travel frequently, there are reasonable travel allowances. Now, if
you would like to show that the cost of the requisite passport cannot be
comfortably covered within the average relocation package or within (say) a
year's overseas travel allowances, I'll listen with sympathy.

Owen

[Roland Perry]

Now, if you would like to show that the cost of the requisite passport
cannot be comfortably covered within the average relocation package or
within (say) a year's overseas travel allowances, I'll listen with
sympathy.

My own experience, in the commercial sector, of needing to go abroad on
business was that all my travel and hotel costs were paid, and any food
at cost on production of receipts. Everything else, including any vague
"allowance", or overtime, or the cost of getting a passport [1] was up
to me (although on consideration I think the company probably paid for
my USA Visa). You might say that my employer was less considerate than
the public sector appears to be. You could be right. There are many
factors to take into account when selecting (or changing) employment,
but I get irritated when people make flippant remarks as if it was
something you could do on a whim with little financial implication.

[1] I distinctly remember having to go to the old passport office in
Peterborough. If it had been a company expense we'd have done it via the
travel agents, like we did the Visa.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian Johnson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian Johnson
What happens will depend on the system that is imposed, what happens if
an electronic passport is non-functioning? how quickly and at what cost
can they be replaced?

We've done the replacement thing to death already. Should be a trip to
the nearest High Street and a thumbprint.

I think you missed my point. if HMG offers free replacement in the high
street (which I feel they should) mine will need replacing *at least*
daily, I'm very careless you see :)

I think you'll get very tired of doing that.

Post by Ian Johnson
Lets say my passport had undergone several very severe thermal shocks.
I turn up to board a flight with it, but the chip is non functioning -
what happens if this is the case for say, half the passengers?

The existing card rollouts that keep cropping up are the places to
discover what causes the hardware to fail. The 5 million USA DoD
workers, for example. How often a passenger gets denied boarding will no
doubt be a fundamental parameter for a combined passport/ID card; ask
the places that are deploying them, including several ones that are
electronic.

Post by Ian Johnson
My real point was supportive and cooperative users versus a significant
number who if offered a spanner will throw it in the works.

You'd find yourself denied the opportunity to do various things. Whether
that matters to you is another matter.

[Ian G Batten]

Post by Ian Johnson
I think you missed my point. if HMG offers free replacement in the high
street

Aside from anything else, with the decline in the number of crown post
offices and a desire by government to fund other programmes by slimming
down the civil service, which arm of government has a branch in every
high street and can cope with this sort of work? And Blunkett is
building a poll tax on a small card anyway, because for many people
(rural, highlands and islands, sink estates) even the ``nearest'' high
street is a difficult journey logistically and/or financially. I want
to watch Blunkett, man of the people, telling a house bound pensioner in
a small highland village that unless she gets herself to Inverness her
pension will be cut off. But then, what's the interests of individuals
as compared to the grandeur of the Home Office?

ian

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian G Batten
Aside from anything else, with the decline in the number of crown post
offices and a desire by government to fund other programmes by slimming
down the civil service, which arm of government has a branch in every
high street and can cope with this sort of work? And Blunkett is
building a poll tax on a small card anyway, because for many people
(rural, highlands and islands, sink estates) even the ``nearest'' high
street is a difficult journey logistically and/or financially. I want
to watch Blunkett, man of the people, telling a house bound pensioner in
a small highland village that unless she gets herself to Inverness her
pension will be cut off. But then, what's the interests of individuals
as compared to the grandeur of the Home Office?

These are all interesting practical issues. I look at what's happened
elsewhere (stop me if you've heard that line before). The State of
Georgia has regions that are probably sparser populated than the
highlands, and is about the size of England (200 miles E/W, 300 miles
N/S) but there's a requirement to issue drivers licenses. They've
achieved that by having over a hundred locations where they've installed
the facilities they need. The one I went to was like a sub-postoffice
tacked onto the side of a highway patrol depot.

By analogy the UK-ID cards could be issued (say) anywhere there is a
municipal library, including the travelling ones. Perhaps not all of
them would be manned five days a week in outlying areas, rather like the
libraries! But people cope. And iirc there were proposed age limits, and
no politician is going to make a martyr of the sort of case you
describe.

[Ian G Batten]

Post by Roland Perry
N/S) but there's a requirement to issue drivers licenses. They've
achieved that by having over a hundred locations where they've installed
the facilities they need. The one I went to was like a sub-postoffice
tacked onto the side of a highway patrol depot.

The more places you can have a card issued, the more people there are
who can be suborned into issuing fake ones, of course. In Blunkett's
``one card to bind them all'' world, acquisition of a false ID card is
probably more powerful than a false State of Georgia driver's license,
and now you're devolving the power to issue them to large numbers of
lightly trained, lightly motivated, lightly cleared people. How skilled
will they be as document examiners, for example? What threat can be
used to keep them honest, as the ID-card business will be but a tiny
part of their commerce?

Post by Roland Perry
By analogy the UK-ID cards could be issued (say) anywhere there is a
municipal library, including the travelling ones. Perhaps not all of

Libraries are, of course, being closed with monotonous regularity. And
are they the right people to do the document examining, iris prints,
etc?

Post by Roland Perry
them would be manned five days a week in outlying areas, rather like the
libraries! But people cope. And iirc there were proposed age limits, and
no politician is going to make a martyr of the sort of case you
describe.

Why not? Blunkett couldn't give a toss about anyone but himself.

ian

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian G Batten

Post by Roland Perry
N/S) but there's a requirement to issue drivers licenses. They've
achieved that by having over a hundred locations where they've installed
the facilities they need. The one I went to was like a sub-postoffice
tacked onto the side of a highway patrol depot.

The more places you can have a card issued, the more people there are
who can be suborned into issuing fake ones, of course. In Blunkett's
``one card to bind them all'' world, acquisition of a false ID card is
probably more powerful than a false State of Georgia driver's license,
and now you're devolving the power to issue them to large numbers of
lightly trained, lightly motivated, lightly cleared people. How skilled
will they be as document examiners, for example? What threat can be
used to keep them honest, as the ID-card business will be but a tiny
part of their commerce?

Librarians tend to be honest people to start off with, but putting that
aside; yes there are challenges in getting the issuing process both
distributed enough and also rigorous enough. But given that it has to be
distributed, the threat model (remember them) can be developed to give
the required amount of rigor. Or if that's impossible, people will have
to think again.

Post by Ian G Batten

Post by Roland Perry
By analogy the UK-ID cards could be issued (say) anywhere there is a
municipal library, including the travelling ones. Perhaps not all of

Libraries are, of course, being closed with monotonous regularity. And
are they the right people to do the document examining, iris prints,
etc?

The library closure issue has been covered in my discussion with David.
And I think Irises will turn out to be a red herring, partly because of
this very issue that the biometric needs to be pretty foolproof. (But if
they didn't at least *try* irises, everyone would nag them about it.)

Post by Ian G Batten

Post by Roland Perry
them would be manned five days a week in outlying areas, rather like the
libraries! But people cope. And iirc there were proposed age limits, and
no politician is going to make a martyr of the sort of case you
describe.

Why not? Blunkett couldn't give a toss about anyone but himself.

Whatever you think about the individuals involved, the process will be
discredited if it's not run smoothly enough. That gives those whose job
it is to invent the processes enough incentive, I think.

[Ian G Batten]

Post by Roland Perry
Librarians tend to be honest people to start off with, but putting that

They also tend to be badly paid, and the most honest of men can be
tempted by paying their mortgage off. And they may also have families,
and the most honest of men may be `tempted' by the threat of having
their children harmed. Lone workers with high-value goods are a health
and safety nightmare.

Aside from anything else, I can't believe that any remotely rigourous
will permit the issuing of cards under sole control. Which immediately
doubles the running costs of the libraries you're proposing to use.

Post by Roland Perry
Whatever you think about the individuals involved, the process will be
discredited if it's not run smoothly enough. That gives those whose job
it is to invent the processes enough incentive, I think.

Why? Involvement in a government IT disaster doesn't appear to carry
any penalities for the political, civil service or industry parties
involved.

ian

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian G Batten

Post by Roland Perry
Librarians tend to be honest people to start off with, but putting that

They also tend to be badly paid, and the most honest of men can be
tempted by paying their mortgage off. And they may also have families,
and the most honest of men may be `tempted' by the threat of having
their children harmed. Lone workers with high-value goods are a health
and safety nightmare.

Well, we all know you have a very poor impression of almost every
profession. Is there anyone at all who meets your standards?

Post by Ian G Batten

Post by Roland Perry
Whatever you think about the individuals involved, the process will be
discredited if it's not run smoothly enough. That gives those whose job
it is to invent the processes enough incentive, I think.

Why? Involvement in a government IT disaster doesn't appear to carry
any penalities for the political, civil service or industry parties
involved.

Those IT disasters don't impact the man in the street going about his
normal business. The closest it cam was perhaps the CSA, where lots of
(but not quite enough) ordinary people became drawn into the mess and
decided to protest.

[Ian G Batten]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian G Batten

Post by Roland Perry
Librarians tend to be honest people to start off with, but putting that

They also tend to be badly paid, and the most honest of men can be
tempted by paying their mortgage off. And they may also have families,
and the most honest of men may be `tempted' by the threat of having
their children harmed. Lone workers with high-value goods are a health
and safety nightmare.

Well, we all know you have a very poor impression of almost every
profession. Is there anyone at all who meets your standards?

That's not a low opinion, that's a fact of _all_ human beings.

I do an annual lecture at my former university, and one year I covered,
inter alia, the topic of risk assessment and of deploying resources
suitably. There's no point in spending millions on physical security
when staff will hand over documents for a few grand, so you need to
ensure that you have internal processes in place to minimise the spread
of valuable material. I said that although I've never been offered
money, I would be surprised if I weren't tempted to hand over, say, ASIC
designs, for a suitable sum of money.

I got phoned up a couple of days later by my former tutor, who had been
told be the head of school to tell me off for displaying such low
morals. Bob was suitably sheepish about the proceedings and I couldn't
be bothered to argue.

If you believe there's a profession which, to a man and woman, cannot be
convinced to do what a bad person wants by a combination of (a) money
and (b) their spouse screaming in agony as their legs are broken then I
have some bridges to sell you.

Post by Roland Perry
Those IT disasters don't impact the man in the street going about his
normal business. The closest it cam was perhaps the CSA, where lots of
(but not quite enough) ordinary people became drawn into the mess and
decided to protest.

And did anyone responsible for the CSA disaster get sanctioned? No.

ian

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian G Batten
And did anyone responsible for the CSA disaster get sanctioned?

I'm fairly sure the head of agency was given a dishonourable discharge.
Who knows what happened further down the pecking order.

[Brian Morrison]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:20:00 +0100 in

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian G Batten
And did anyone responsible for the CSA disaster get sanctioned?

I'm fairly sure the head of agency was given a dishonourable
discharge. Who knows what happened further down the pecking order.

So invisible sanctions are effective at letting the taxpayer know their
cash is being spent wisely? These sanctions should have been very
public.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Roland Perry
I'm fairly sure the head of agency was given a dishonourable
discharge. Who knows what happened further down the pecking order.

So invisible sanctions are effective at letting the taxpayer know their
cash is being spent wisely? These sanctions should have been very
public.

I agree.

[David Hansen]

Post by Ian G Batten
If you believe there's a profession which, to a man and woman, cannot be
convinced to do what a bad person wants by a combination of (a) money
and (b) their spouse screaming in agony as their legs are broken then I
have some bridges to sell you.

When I worked in the building industry a very wise quantity surveyor
and I had a long discussion about preventing fraud with one of our
internal auditors. The QS's view was simple and this is it almost word
for word. "Everyone has their price. My price is much higher than the
value of the contracts I award and sign off on my own."

[David Hansen]

Post by Roland Perry
Well, we all know you have a very poor impression of almost every
profession. Is there anyone at all who meets your standards?

As I went to college at one of the few places that does library studies
it might be worth setting the record straight. The people you see in
the public parts of libraries are mostly not professional librarians
(or whatever the name is this week), who are relatively well paid.
Rather they are generally the less well trained and less well paid
library assistants. Without wishing to detract from the library
assistants' many skills they are the equivalent of lowly clerks in
whatever the DHSS is called this week. Many of the former have left the
library service for better jobs elsewhere.

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen

Post by Roland Perry
Well, we all know you have a very poor impression of almost every
profession. Is there anyone at all who meets your standards?

As I went to college at one of the few places that does library studies
it might be worth setting the record straight. The people you see in
the public parts of libraries are mostly not professional librarians
(or whatever the name is this week), who are relatively well paid.
Rather they are generally the less well trained and less well paid
library assistants. Without wishing to detract from the library
assistants' many skills they are the equivalent of lowly clerks in
whatever the DHSS is called this week. Many of the former have left the
library service for better jobs elsewhere.

We seem to be converging on the view that there is no-one capable of
issuing anything. So we have driving examiners who give a "pass" to
avoid being beaten up and Post Offices routinely giving out tax disks to
people with no insurance because they've been slipped a tenner. What a
state we are in.

[Ian G Batten]

Post by Roland Perry
We seem to be converging on the view that there is no-one capable of
issuing anything. So we have driving examiners who give a "pass" to
avoid being beaten up

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3404333.stm

Tends to make the point that driving examiners don't check photographs
terribly carefully.

Post by Roland Perry
and Post Offices routinely giving out tax disks to
people with no insurance because they've been slipped a tenner.

I don't know how often this happens. I know someone who once got an MoT
certificate by mail order.

ian

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian G Batten

Post by Roland Perry
We seem to be converging on the view that there is no-one capable of
issuing anything. So we have driving examiners who give a "pass" to
avoid being beaten up

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3404333.stm
Tends to make the point that driving examiners don't check photographs
terribly carefully.

This seems to be one those ratholes that Brian and I dislike, but
hey-ho, it's Friday.

This chap was only impersonating black males, and was caught.

Post by Ian G Batten

Post by Roland Perry
and Post Offices routinely giving out tax disks to
people with no insurance because they've been slipped a tenner.

I don't know how often this happens. I know someone who once got an MoT
certificate by mail order.

Yes, we all know bent MOTs are ten a penny, but that wasn't the risk I
mentioned.

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 09 September 2004 19:06
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors
The more places you can have a card issued, the more people there are
who can be suborned into issuing fake ones, of course. In Blunkett's
``one card to bind them all'' world, acquisition of a false ID card is
probably more powerful than a false State of Georgia driver's license,
and now you're devolving the power to issue them to large numbers of
lightly trained, lightly motivated, lightly cleared people. How skilled
will they be as document examiners, for example? What threat can be
used to keep them honest, as the ID-card business will be but a tiny
part of their commerce?

This is a good point but one that I think can be fully covered, provided
there is a suitable implementation of a personal ID scheme. One way in which
successful fraudulent manufacture can be curtailed is by adding information
at the national data base of unique information to that of the biometric(s)
and other personal information. If (ob crypto) by the use of cryptographic
techniques, this additional information cannot be recovered from an ID card
other but its correct tie to the card can be confirmed only by checking the
card-borne information with the detail on the database. This might be done
by something like the secure hash that we discussed here a while back.

One of the problems with the UK scheme (at least on the information
presently available on it) is that no such security mechanism seems to be
incorporated. OTOH is should be possible to incorporate such a mechanism
without making public the detail of it.

Owen

[Ian G Batten]

Post by Owen Lewis

Post by Ian G Batten
The more places you can have a card issued, the more people there are
who can be suborned into issuing fake ones, of course. In Blunkett's
``one card to bind them all'' world, acquisition of a false ID card is
probably more powerful than a false State of Georgia driver's license,
and now you're devolving the power to issue them to large numbers of
lightly trained, lightly motivated, lightly cleared people. How skilled
will they be as document examiners, for example? What threat can be
used to keep them honest, as the ID-card business will be but a tiny
part of their commerce?

This is a good point but one that I think can be fully covered, provided
there is a suitable implementation of a personal ID scheme. One way in which
successful fraudulent manufacture can be curtailed is by adding information
at the national data base of unique information to that of the biometric(s)
and other personal information. If (ob crypto) by the use of cryptographic

I don't see how that would address some obvious attacks.

Let's assume that ID cards are to be issued to the people of the
Highlands by bolting the service onto the travelling library, or the
travelling cinema, or the post bus.

A van pulls up in a little village, and someone knocks on the door and
asks for an ID card. They present a passport, a birth certificate, a
photograph signed by a witness and a completed application form. What
skills does the librarian have to assess the validity of the documents?
In Ross' heirarchy of examiners, s/he's level 1: inexperienced,
ill-trained and actively motivated to pass the documents so s/he can get
on with the real job of issuing books to the queue of readers building
outside the van.

Result: an ID card in a false name, containing real biometrics. It
doesn't really matter if later the passport is shown to be fake, perhaps
from a scan taken at the time of issuing --- absent an online check, the
ID card holder has a valid ID card.

More insidiously, someone turns up with a _genuine_ passport which has
been crudely modified to contain a photograph of the applicant by
sticking a new photograph over the old one. If the librarian objects
they are either threatened --- lone worker, remember? --- or bribed.
The only way this one would be caught would be by comparing a scan of
the passport with a scan of the original issued document, and again, by
then it's too late.

How many librarians are going to be prepared to get beaten up in order
to protect the integrity of the ID card scheme?

ian

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian G Batten
How many librarians are going to be prepared to get beaten up in order
to protect the integrity of the ID card scheme?

Not very many, but you need to think this through. All the cards they've
issued that day will be logged on the central database. And after
they've issued one under duress it will be simplicity itself to "mark
that card", so that when it's first presented somewhere that the people
*do* make a career out of not being beaten up, it can be confiscated and
the culprit apprehended.

[Brian Beesley]

Post by Owen Lewis
One of the problems with the UK scheme (at least on the information
presently available on it) is that no such security mechanism seems to be
incorporated. OTOH is should be possible to incorporate such a mechanism
without making public the detail of it.

Ah, "security" by obfuscation again. This is effectively the same argument as
insisting that Microsoft products must be more secure than open source
software, or that gun crime cannot possibly exist since public ownership of
handguns was criminalized post-Dunblane.

The public MUST be able to evaluate the security mechanisms, otherwise there
will be neither trust nor security.

Brian Beesley

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 13 September 2004 09:09
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Owen Lewis
One of the problems with the UK scheme (at least on the information
presently available on it) is that no such security mechanism

seems to be

Post by Owen Lewis
incorporated. OTOH is should be possible to incorporate such a mechanism
without making public the detail of it.

Ah, "security" by obfuscation again. This is effectively the same argument as
insisting that Microsoft products must be more secure than open source
software, or that gun crime cannot possibly exist since public
ownership of
handguns was criminalized post-Dunblane.
The public MUST be able to evaluate the security mechanisms,
otherwise there
will be neither trust nor security.

This is the standard security newbie mantra.

The truth is:

- The 'public' is simply not competent to evaluate many security
mechanisms.

- Where evaluation is within the public competence, it rarely chooses to
make such evaluation (else why are Yale-type rimlocks fitted to >90% of
homes?).

- Govts (here and elsewhere) choose not to disclose nor discuss their own
security procedures. This does not mean that these procedures are not
evaluated by those qualified to do so.

- Much security rests necessarily on some degree of obscurity. Private
crypto keys are but one small example. In another example (e.g. book code)
the strength of the code relies on maintaining secrecy as to the method of
coding.


Owen

[Roland Perry]

Post by Brian Beesley
The public MUST be able to evaluate the security mechanisms, otherwise there
will be neither trust nor security.

Out of interest, how do you ensure that the bad guys don't get all sorts
of ideas about how to circumvent the security mechanisms? Or are you
replying on them having an intrinsic security, like Crypto, rather than
a surprise factor like "we'll double-xray every bag over 40 lbs" [and so
the terrorists make sure all their bags are below 39 lbs].

[Peter Tomlinson]

Yes, its the intrinsic security methods that need peer review. If those
can be broken, the whole scheme may fail. Being able to circumvent
surprise factors will probably allow only small scale penetration.

Here we get straight into the fundamentals:

- are we trying to prevent a singularity (another twin towers)?

- or are we trying to provide assured ID in order to make life more
convenient for the sheep and make it easier for governments to weed out
the goats?

Peter

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Brian Beesley
The public MUST be able to evaluate the security mechanisms, otherwise there
will be neither trust nor security.

Out of interest, how do you ensure that the bad guys don't get all sorts
of ideas about how to circumvent the security mechanisms? Or are you
replying on them having an intrinsic security, like Crypto, rather than
a surprise factor like "we'll double-xray every bag over 40 lbs" [and so
the terrorists make sure all their bags are below 39 lbs].

[David Hansen]

Post by Owen Lewis
One way in
which successful fraudulent manufacture can be curtailed is by adding
information at the national data base of unique information to that of
the biometric(s) and other personal information. If (ob crypto) by the
use of cryptographic techniques, this additional information cannot be
recovered from an ID card other but its correct tie to the card can be
confirmed only by checking the card-borne information with the detail on
the database. This might be done by something like the secure hash that
we discussed here a while back.

I see a problem.

The people we are talking about are government officials and their smug
big business consultants. We know that their concept of security is
rather different to ours, a prime example being that these thick
people, a phrase I use deliberately, entertained the concept of
shuttling unencrypted medical records around for more than one second.
Had they any concept of privacy than such an idea would have been
instantly thrown out, but I doubt if those involved were even aware of
the issues.

Let me add that this is not the worst example I know of. I have come
across things more sensitive than medical records being sent by
unencrypted e-mail across open networks by people who were unaware of
the issues until I, a small business consultant, asked them some
questions in the course of giving them some advice on e-mail problems.
I am not even going to indicate the sector that this was in.

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 10 September 2004 11:33
Subject: RE: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Owen Lewis
One way in
which successful fraudulent manufacture can be curtailed is by adding
information at the national data base of unique information to that of
the biometric(s) and other personal information. If (ob crypto) by the
use of cryptographic techniques, this additional information cannot be
recovered from an ID card other but its correct tie to the card can be
confirmed only by checking the card-borne information with the detail on
the database. This might be done by something like the secure hash that
we discussed here a while back.

I see a problem.
The people we are talking about are government officials and their smug
big business consultants. We know that their concept of security is
rather different to ours, a prime example being that these thick
people, a phrase I use deliberately, entertained the concept of
shuttling unencrypted medical records around for more than one second.
Had they any concept of privacy than such an idea would have been
instantly thrown out, but I doubt if those involved were even aware of
the issues.

You seem to think that this issue is a clear cut one and I need to be
careful what I say. If you were to find that all confidential information on
whatever subject or for whatever purpose was treated similarly, would you
suppose that govt should make an extraordinary exception for medical
records? I think we live in a time of great change and of changing
expectations. One such change is the present ubiquity and negligible cost of
enciphering information in electronic transmission and storage to quite
passable standards of security.

If govt is dragged into this new world only some ten years after it was
enthusiastically embraced by others, would you still be so caustic? It was
once said to me and, over many years, I have found it to be a wise thought,
that we are best served if govt and the law follow about ten years behind
the first appearance of a need for change.

Let me add that this is not the worst example I know of. I have come
across things more sensitive than medical records being sent by
unencrypted e-mail across open networks by people who were unaware of
the issues until I, a small business consultant, asked them some
questions in the course of giving them some advice on e-mail problems.
I am not even going to indicate the sector that this was in.

Hush, hush, whisper who dares.... let's not hear the shuffle of the size
13's outside our doors - or of squirrels gnawing secretly at our wiring :-)

Owen

[Roland Perry]

Post by Owen Lewis
If you were to find that all confidential information on
whatever subject or for whatever purpose was treated similarly, would you
suppose that govt should make an extraordinary exception for medical
records?

I saw my medical records [1] yesterday. They were in a white A4 folder
marked "Confidential" in letters about an inch high. But none of the
papers inside the folder were cyphered in any way.

[1] OK, a subset of them, but an important and current subset.

[David Hansen]

Post by Owen Lewis
If you were to find that all confidential
information on whatever subject or for whatever purpose was treated
similarly, would you suppose that govt should make an extraordinary
exception for medical records?

Without further discussion on what you are being careful about it is
not possible for me to say.

Post by Owen Lewis
I think we live in a time of great change

I think the major changes in this field happened some time ago, but
there are still may more to come.

Post by Owen Lewis
and of changing expectations.

I'm not sure expectations are changing. What is changing is the general
public's knowledge of how shabbily they have been treated in the past.

Post by Owen Lewis
One such change is the present ubiquity
and negligible cost of enciphering information in electronic
transmission and storage to quite passable standards of security.

I think that ubiquity is at least a decade old. It would have been
older had officials not deliberately prevented it from happening.

Post by Owen Lewis
If govt is dragged into this new world only some ten years after it was
enthusiastically embraced by others, would you still be so caustic? It
was once said to me and, over many years, I have found it to be a wise
thought, that we are best served if govt and the law follow about ten
years behind the first appearance of a need for change.

Such an approach has some merits in many areas. For example the rush by
the Home Office to prove how big their willy is by the number of laws
they can push through the rogues gallery is rather pathetic. It would
be far better if the number of such episodes were reduced and that
reduced number were properly thought out before rushing in. RIP and the
so-called anti-terrorist laws are good examples. Things were not always
done in the current fashion.

However, the question is when the first appearance of a need for change
occurred and whether that appearance was natural or interfered with by
vested interests. I started thinking about the subject in an organised
way in the late 1970s, but government was thinking about it long before
that.

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 10 September 2004 17:58
Subject: RE: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Owen Lewis
If you were to find that all confidential
information on whatever subject or for whatever purpose was treated
similarly, would you suppose that govt should make an extraordinary
exception for medical records?

Without further discussion on what you are being careful about it is
not possible for me to say.

That's all he wrote and he is now out to lunch. No, I don't know when he'll
be back - but if you would like to leave word and a telephone number I'm
sure he'll want to get right back to you on his return.

Post by Owen Lewis
I think we live in a time of great change

I think the major changes in this field happened some time ago, but
there are still may more to come.

Depends on what we're talking about. Our age is the age of electronic
communication, It began before us and will continue to develop after us. But
we have the thrill and the privilege of living through the steep part of the
progressional curve.

Post by Owen Lewis
and of changing expectations.

I'm not sure expectations are changing. What is changing is the general
public's knowledge of how shabbily they have been treated in the past.

Would you not say that that was a change in expectations? (i.e. that they
should be treated differently in the future to the way they were treated in
the past) You put this in a very perjorative way. It feels like reviewing
past actions with the eyes of today. IMO one can only fairly assess the
actions of the past by seeing through the eyes of the past. The perspective
lent is very different.

Post by Owen Lewis
One such change is the present ubiquity
and negligible cost of enciphering information in electronic
transmission and storage to quite passable standards of security.

I think that ubiquity is at least a decade old.

Not from where I stand. I'm still having difficulty in persuading many of my
customers to the development of a proper integrated information security
policy, within which cipher systems play a key role. At a guess, more
businesses than not are have still to optimise their use of crypto.
Sometimes it is the key management issues that put then off but in most
cases it is simply seen as another concern and expense that 'we don't need
because the heuristic evidence of loss is only anecdotal'. It may be
different for you but I find there's still a long way to go.

It would have been older had officials not deliberately prevented it from

happening.

Not by much. The revolution rode in on the back of desktop computing and the
x086 and other chips of that generation. It was always unstoppable and was
scarcely delayed at all by the early huffings and puffings attributed to NSA
and GCHQ. Whatever the public pronouncements may have been, it may well be
that those that mattered in those agencies knew pretty exactly, back into
the late '80's what would happen - would have to happen back.

Post by Owen Lewis
If govt is dragged into this new world only some ten years after it was
enthusiastically embraced by others, would you still be so caustic? It
was once said to me and, over many years, I have found it to be a wise
thought, that we are best served if govt and the law follow about ten
years behind the first appearance of a need for change.

Such an approach has some merits in many areas. For example the rush by
the Home Office to prove how big their willy is by the number of laws
they can push through the rogues gallery is rather pathetic. It would
be far better if the number of such episodes were reduced and that
reduced number were properly thought out before rushing in. RIP and the
so-called anti-terrorist laws are good examples. Things were not always
done in the current fashion.

Quite so.

However, the question is when the first appearance of a need for change
occurred and whether that appearance was natural or interfered with by
vested interests. I started thinking about the subject in an organised
way in the late 1970s, but government was thinking about it long before
that.

Thinking about what? About the confidential handling of personal
information? I think one needs to pull the matter apart a little before
seeing what we can knit. As recently at the late eighties, RSA crypto was
still a govt controlled US export available commercially only to financial
institutions and just a very few others in selected countries (mainly the
core NATO club). ISTR that in 1988 the standard exported version was limited
to a 256 bit key. It was PGP - if mainly because of all the free publicity
for crypto issues that the Uncle Sam/PRZ panto created - that popped the lid
right off the box in the period 92-94 but it was the back end of the 90's
before commercial take up of crypto was substantial. And before the early
'90's those sizable businesses using computers at all themselves (remember
bureau services?) were using mainframes or midi systems. And 1200 bps was
still thought of as a good speed for long distance data communication. It is
from there that we have all built in the last ten years.

Owen

[David Hansen]

Post by Owen Lewis
Not from where I stand. I'm still having difficulty in persuading many
of my customers to the development of a proper integrated information
security policy, within which cipher systems play a key role. At a
guess, more businesses than not are have still to optimise their use of
crypto. Sometimes it is the key management issues that put then off but
in most cases it is simply seen as another concern and expense that 'we
don't need because the heuristic evidence of loss is only anecdotal'. It
may be different for you but I find there's still a long way to go.

I think we need to separate things into segments. I agree there is a
long way to go in places, but whether that is natural or a matter of
incompetence is a matter of debate.

Starting with the small business sector, cost is the prime concern for
many. I am currently sitting in my office at home looking at a blue box
that has an ADSL modem, firewall, radio network access point & router
inside and will run 16 VPN tunnels. The VPN light is currently on,
because I spent some time yesterday getting it to communicate over a
tunnel with the office (a computer problem rather than a problem with
the router:-) The box cost £130 and it's cousin in the office £109 as
it has no radio. It is only recently that such things became affordable
to small businesses (along with reasonably high speed communications)
and they will drive much better use of computers. However, I have
produced on-line shops for small businesses since the late 1990s, which
have used https and PGP/GPG, so the technology has had partial
penetration for some time.

I do agree that managing keys is a deterrent. With 20 teleworker and 16
VPN profiles, fully using the blue box and changing keys regularly is
just about possible. There are solutions to remove the hassle, but the
cost of some of these is probably geared to big business and there is
the "being sold out by the administrator" problem. I'm pleased to see
that one can be one's own Certificate Authority and so bypass this,
though this introduces other problems in a larger network. The tension
between centralisation and localisation seems to occur everywhere.

Big business is a different matter. They have been able to afford
rather more expensive versions of the blue box for perhaps 15 years.
They also have large IT departments that should be on-top of
developments rather more rapidly than smaller businesses. Ditto for
government, except that they first dealt with the issues many decades
ago.

Post by Owen Lewis
And before the early '90's those sizable businesses using
computers at all themselves (remember bureau services?)

Very much.

Post by Owen Lewis
were using mainframes or midi systems.

Many of which were equipped with primitive forms of crypto in the form
of essentially Enigma, but which was usually not turned on and was not
that suitable for the bit to the terminal.

Post by Owen Lewis
And 1200 bps was still thought of as a good
speed for long distance data communication.

We had a 2400 bps modem in the late 1980s, on loan from the
manufacturer to test it. However, we only had one pair of them and it
was a rush to get the terminal with that modem. It had no error
correction, which made displays interesting at times. Obviously we made
them dial by issuing commands at the terminal, which we programmed into
function keys.

Post by Owen Lewis
It is from there that we have all built in the last ten years.

I think the question is whether what we now see was the only
possibility, starting from say the 1970s when interested members of the
public became aware of the issues via the Enigma revelations

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 12 September 2004 18:12
Subject: RE: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Owen Lewis
Not from where I stand. I'm still having difficulty in persuading many
of my customers to the development of a proper integrated information
security policy, within which cipher systems play a key role. At a
guess, more businesses than not are have still to optimise their use of
crypto. Sometimes it is the key management issues that put then off but
in most cases it is simply seen as another concern and expense that 'we
don't need because the heuristic evidence of loss is only anecdotal'. It
may be different for you but I find there's still a long way to go.

I think we need to separate things into segments. I agree there is a
long way to go in places, but whether that is natural or a matter of
incompetence is a matter of debate.

It might be quite a short debate ;-)

Starting with the small business sector, cost is the prime concern for
many. I am currently sitting in my office at home looking at a blue box
that has an ADSL modem, firewall, radio network access point & router
inside and will run 16 VPN tunnels. The VPN light is currently on,
because I spent some time yesterday getting it to communicate over a
tunnel with the office (a computer problem rather than a problem with
the router:-) The box cost £130 and it's cousin in the office £109 as
it has no radio. It is only recently that such things became affordable
to small businesses (along with reasonably high speed communications)
and they will drive much better use of computers. However, I have
produced on-line shops for small businesses since the late 1990s, which
have used https and PGP/GPG, so the technology has had partial
penetration for some time.
I do agree that managing keys is a deterrent. With 20 teleworker and 16
VPN profiles, fully using the blue box and changing keys regularly is
just about possible. There are solutions to remove the hassle, but the
cost of some of these is probably geared to big business and there is
the "being sold out by the administrator" problem. I'm pleased to see
that one can be one's own Certificate Authority and so bypass this,
though this introduces other problems in a larger network. The tension
between centralisation and localisation seems to occur everywhere.
Big business is a different matter. They have been able to afford
rather more expensive versions of the blue box for perhaps 15 years.
They also have large IT departments that should be on-top of
developments rather more rapidly than smaller businesses. Ditto for
government, except that they first dealt with the issues many decades
ago.

One might think so but Small business, particularly in hi-tech oriented
sectors generally seem to move well ahead of most big business. The
introduction of desktop PC's being a case in point, I think.

Post by Owen Lewis
And before the early '90's those sizable businesses using
computers at all themselves (remember bureau services?)

Very much.

Post by Owen Lewis
were using mainframes or midi systems.

Many of which were equipped with primitive forms of crypto in the form
of essentially Enigma, but which was usually not turned on and was not
that suitable for the bit to the terminal.

Post by Owen Lewis
And 1200 bps was still thought of as a good
speed for long distance data communication.

We had a 2400 bps modem in the late 1980s, on loan from the
manufacturer to test it. However, we only had one pair of them and it
was a rush to get the terminal with that modem. It had no error
correction, which made displays interesting at times. Obviously we made
them dial by issuing commands at the terminal, which we programmed into
function keys.

Post by Owen Lewis
It is from there that we have all built in the last ten years.

I think the question is whether what we now see was the only
possibility, starting from say the 1970s when interested members of the
public became aware of the issues via the Enigma revelations

Well, ISTR that ENIGMA started life as a commercial system in the late 20's?

The main difficulties were, I think:

- After WWII commercial uptake of crypto was limited primarily by cost (all
special purpose hardware. This combined with the key management costs in
large organisations was a killer. Plus the fact that industrial espionage
was still virtually unheard of in the UK. One of the first companies
specialising in it was set up in London about 1962 by its US parent. About
two (very clever) young men and an office dog. They made a *lot* of money.
Took a bag of money to Switzerland and tried to repeat the success - and
lost their shirts :-)

- Govt export controls. AFAIK there were never import controls in this
country as there were in some others (e.g. France). There was very little
indigenous UK commercial crypto product.

- The lack of commercially available certifiably good ciphers for the
emergent computer systems. AFAIK the first attempt to produce such a product
for the commercial market (subject to export controls) was IBM's LUCIFER in
the '70's. When this proved fatally flawed, NSA got into bed with IBM to
help produce its successor, DES, which became the first 'runaway' commercial
crypto product in 1977, very shortly followed by RSA. These ushered in the
age of cheap reliable crypto, only just trailing the wave of computerisation
of businesses. that really began in UK and in earnest in the 80's and
gathered pace in the '90s.

It's no state secret to say that (outside of the Pay Service that had been
partially main-framed a very few years earlier), there were no computers in
the Army for administrative purposes until 1979. In that year some 'I treat
it as though its my own money' person released the funds for the purchase of
a single Apple II, which was given to HQ Eastern District to see what uses
it could find for it and report back (crude cost/benefit analysis if you
like). I remember their report well which, in summary, was that 'the concept
was grand and, if better systems could be developed, there should be
widespread adoption of such things. However, as it stood, the Apple II was a
dog and far too many expensive man-hours were spent waiting for it do even
such simple things as to put on screen the qualifications presently held by
Corporal X; one could look it up in a manual card index system in a fraction
of the time'. Widespread adoption for administrative use did not follow the
second half of the '80's with some of the very first being word processors
only. Commerce in the UK was not much ahead of this I think. I bought my
first, a 10Mhz 286AT clone with 640kb of RAM and a 40Mb hard drive, prior to
setting up in business in '88. At that time I reckoned that
'computerisation' saved me the cost of at least one and possibly two
salaries. It also enabled me to do things that, without a computer, could
only be done by large businesses with departments full of expensive talent.

Owen

[Roland Perry]

Post by Owen Lewis
It's no state secret to say that (outside of the Pay Service that had been
partially main-framed a very few years earlier), there were no computers in
the Army for administrative purposes until 1979.

I remember showing some of the multiuser CP/M systems I was working on
at the time to the folks from Army stores in Bicester. They wanted them
for stock control, in the field, which was a bit scary at the time.
79-80 timeframe.

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 13 September 2004 12:55
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Owen Lewis
It's no state secret to say that (outside of the Pay

Service that had been

Post by Owen Lewis
partially main-framed a very few years earlier), there were no

computers in

Post by Owen Lewis
the Army for administrative purposes until 1979.

I remember showing some of the multiuser CP/M systems I was working on
at the time to the folks from Army stores in Bicester. They wanted them
for stock control, in the field, which was a bit scary at the time.
79-80 timeframe.
--

There were (some) computers for operational research, and some operational,
communications and logistical tasks well before the end of the 70's. They
tried to teach me computer programming on a Fire Control computer (used for
adjusting artillery fire) in 1971 (used Elliott Autocode and used punched
tape with five binary state Murray code as a storage medium). The roots of
course stem from the work at Bletchley in WWII which was, I think, the Armed
Forces first involvement with electronic computing, though there may have
been some interest the analogue computing developed at Manchester before the
war.

Owen

[David Hansen]

The roots of course stem from the work at Bletchley in
WWII which was, I think, the Armed Forces first involvement with
electronic computing, though there may have been some interest the
analogue computing developed at Manchester before the war.

Their interest in analogue computing dates back around 100 years. Fire
control for warships (initially just the large ones) was based on
mechanical analogue computers (called fire control tables). These are
most interesting devices to look at, were very expensive to build and
the methods of doing things like differentiation fascinating.

Analogue computing using electrical components would be a step forward.
Indeed in the 1920s they introduced a very simple analogue transmission
system to take information from the fire control table to guns. This
had the benefit of varying the speed of the gun depending on how far
away it was from where it should be aimed, obviously within limits.

[Roland Perry]

Fire control for warships (initially just the large ones) was based on
mechanical analogue computers (called fire control tables). These are
most interesting devices to look at, were very expensive to build and
the methods of doing things like differentiation fascinating.

I've been on a tour that includes the computer room of a (preserved) US
Navy Aircraft Carrier. It was built at the start of WW2, but not sure
when the current set of computers were installed. The VDUs are the same
as the ones I was using in 1979.

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 13 September 2004 17:42
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Fire control for warships (initially just the large ones) was based on
mechanical analogue computers (called fire control tables). These are
most interesting devices to look at, were very expensive to build and
the methods of doing things like differentiation fascinating.

I've been on a tour that includes the computer room of a (preserved) US
Navy Aircraft Carrier. It was built at the start of WW2, but not sure
when the current set of computers were installed. The VDUs are the same
as the ones I was using in 1979.

Then you can bet your backside that they wer not installed in 1942 :-)

Owen

[Roland Perry]

Post by Owen Lewis

The VDUs are the same as the ones I was using in 1979.

Then you can bet your backside that they wer not installed in 1942 :-)

That's for sure, but it suggests deployment of computers before 1979.

In fact, my memory has been jogged, and the computer room was initially
fitted out with IBM/Hollerith punch-card equipment. But used only for
things like payroll, and not for weapon guidance.

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 13 September 2004 18:40
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Owen Lewis

The VDUs are the same as the ones I was using in 1979.

Then you can bet your backside that they wer not installed in 1942 :-)

That's for sure, but it suggests deployment of computers before 1979.

Please read the fine print (if I manage to garble it little less than
usual). The discussion was of the introduction of computers into the British
army for administrative purposes. Other posts from several have been a
stroll down memory lane describing the introduction of mechanical
computation for limited military/naval operational purposes back to the turn
of 20th cent.

In fact, my memory has been jogged, and the computer room was initially
fitted out with IBM/Hollerith punch-card equipment. But used only for
things like payroll, and not for weapon guidance.

:-) ah those Yanks.

Owen

[Roland Perry]

Post by Owen Lewis
The discussion was of the introduction of computers into the British
army for administrative purposes.

Yes, so it was. So my aircraft-carrier punch-card systems win, then??

[Brian Gladman]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Owen Lewis
The discussion was of the introduction of computers into the British
army for administrative purposes.

Yes, so it was. So my aircraft-carrier punch-card systems win, then??

No. I was working on commisioning trials of Ferranti Poseidon computers
for air space management on the aircraft carriers HMS Eagle and HMS Ark
Royal in, I think, 1972 or even earlier (I will have to dig some old
diaries out to be certain of the dates).

Brian Gladman

[Roland Perry]

Post by Brian Gladman

Post by Roland Perry
Yes, so it was. So my aircraft-carrier punch-card systems win, then??

No. I was working on commisioning trials of Ferranti Poseidon
computers for air space management on the aircraft carriers HMS Eagle
and HMS Ark Royal in, I think, 1972 or even earlier (I will have to dig
some old diaries out to be certain of the dates).

Not sure I follow. Are you dis-allowing punch-card operated computers,
or have you forgotten that "my" carrier's were installed during WW2?

Of course, such machines must have been used in the US military for
admin between the wars as well.

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 13 September 2004 20:01
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Owen Lewis
The discussion was of the introduction of computers into the British
army for administrative purposes.

Yes, so it was. So my aircraft-carrier punch-card systems win, then??

No. I was working on commissioning trials of Ferranti Poseidon computers
for air space management on the aircraft carriers HMS Eagle and HMS Ark
Royal in, I think, 1972 or even earlier (I will have to dig some old
diaries out to be certain of the dates).

Brian,

'Ow queek zey forget nie?

The TB2 system was fielded about 1965 (I joined 36 Hy AD Regt as a part of
its integrated Scalyback squadron in '66 just as it was equipped with its
second missile battery and soon after we'd retired TB1 in '65. Three
computers per missile battery, each using a ferrite ring memory store, the
rings being held in a matrix of crossing conductors. One talked to them
nicely and stroked their cores gently. I've still got some old photos of
that. Weapons system engineer was a lovely but haunted man called Tom Cadman
who resigned his commission in '67 to take BAE's silver dollar and go to
Libya as the weapons system engineer for TB1 when they sold that refurbished
system to King Idris (contract cancelled after Gadaffi's coup and Tom
disappeared down the plug-hole with it as development of a TB3 was
cancelled).

TB1 must have been commissioned about '59 or even earlier, along with the
MkI Ferranti Bloodhound system which had a generally similar level of
technology. I'm pretty certain, as you should be, that that there were other
operational computerised systems in the field too in the mid 60's..

Owen

[Brian Gladman]

Post by Owen Lewis

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 13 September 2004 20:01
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Owen Lewis
The discussion was of the introduction of computers into the British
army for administrative purposes.

Yes, so it was. So my aircraft-carrier punch-card systems win, then??

No. I was working on commissioning trials of Ferranti Poseidon computers
for air space management on the aircraft carriers HMS Eagle and HMS Ark
Royal in, I think, 1972 or even earlier (I will have to dig some old
diaries out to be certain of the dates).

Brian,
'Ow queek zey forget nie?
The TB2 system was fielded about 1965 (I joined 36 Hy AD Regt as a part of
its integrated Scalyback squadron in '66 just as it was equipped with its
second missile battery and soon after we'd retired TB1 in '65. Three
computers per missile battery, each using a ferrite ring memory store, the
rings being held in a matrix of crossing conductors. One talked to them
nicely and stroked their cores gently. I've still got some old photos of
that. Weapons system engineer was a lovely but haunted man called Tom Cadman
who resigned his commission in '67 to take BAE's silver dollar and go to
Libya as the weapons system engineer for TB1 when they sold that refurbished
system to King Idris (contract cancelled after Gadaffi's coup and Tom
disappeared down the plug-hole with it as development of a TB3 was
cancelled).
TB1 must have been commissioned about '59 or even earlier, along with the
MkI Ferranti Bloodhound system which had a generally similar level of
technology. I'm pretty certain, as you should be, that that there were other
operational computerised systems in the field too in the mid 60's..

I never worked on BloodHound but I did work on Sea Slug, the early Navy
Missile system. But I was on Radar from 1961 to 1971 so the computer
side was not my priority then. The first step I was personally involved
in was the move of computers into Command and Control tasks such as air
space management (RRE was doing Linesman and we were doing the Navy
carriers).

This was mid 60s to early 70s (I was in on the tail end of it). I
thought Roland's date was 1979, which is why I mentioned my early 70s stuff.

Brian Gladman

[Clive D. W. Feather]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Post by Owen Lewis
Three
computers per missile battery, each using a ferrite ring memory store, the
rings being held in a matrix of crossing conductors.

More complex than that. Selection wires formed a square grid, the
inhibit wire is woven up and down the columns, and the sense wire is
woven in a separate diagonal grid [*].

Post by Owen Lewis
One talked to them
nicely and stroked their cores gently. I've still got some old photos of
that.

I still own some of the core planes from the Elliott that I learned to
programme on.

[*] For those wondering what these are all about, the cores are rings
that have a preferred and non-preferred direction of magnetisation. The
core is diagonal on to the selection wires, and sending a current of
just the right amount down both the wires through a given core will push
it into the non-preferred direction, where it will then stay.

Sending the same current in the opposite direction down those wires will
flip it back to the preferred direction, inducing a pulse in the sense
wire (which is perpendicular to the plane of the ring).

When writing a 0 to the core, the usual practice was *not* to not write,
leaving the core unaltered, but rather to send a current down the
inhibit wire that was exactly opposite to that in the parallel select
wire. As a result, there isn't enough current to drive the state change.
I presume the reason it was done this way was that it let the select
logic be separate from the logic to decide what value to write to a
given core.

- --
Clive D.W. Feather | Home: <clive-fMmbJOuZRAcdnm+***@public.gmane.org>
Tel: [phone] (work) | Web: <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: [phone] | Work: <clive-***@public.gmane.org>
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: <clive-fMmbJOuZRAcdnm+***@public.gmane.org>

[Ian G Batten]

Post by Clive D. W. Feather
I still own some of the core planes from the Elliott that I learned to
programme on.

Presumably one programmes a machine with core memory, but programs a
machine with semi-conductor...

ian

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Feather
Sent: 14 September 2004 09:11
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Post by Owen Lewis
Three
computers per missile battery, each using a ferrite ring memory

store, the

Post by Owen Lewis
rings being held in a matrix of crossing conductors.

More complex than that. Selection wires formed a square grid, the
inhibit wire is woven up and down the columns, and the sense wire is
woven in a separate diagonal grid [*].

Post by Owen Lewis
One talked to them
nicely and stroked their cores gently. I've still got some old photos of
that.

I still own some of the core planes from the Elliott that I learned to
programme on.

Well done you. There are so many things over the years which now I wish I'd
kept.

[*] For those wondering what these are all about, the cores are rings
that have a preferred and non-preferred direction of magnetisation. The
core is diagonal on to the selection wires, and sending a current of
just the right amount down both the wires through a given core will push
it into the non-preferred direction, where it will then stay.
Sending the same current in the opposite direction down those wires will
flip it back to the preferred direction, inducing a pulse in the sense
wire (which is perpendicular to the plane of the ring).
When writing a 0 to the core, the usual practice was *not* to not write,
leaving the core unaltered, but rather to send a current down the
inhibit wire that was exactly opposite to that in the parallel select
wire. As a result, there isn't enough current to drive the state change.
I presume the reason it was done this way was that it let the select
logic be separate from the logic to decide what value to write to a
given core.

Then one use to bundle them about on trucks, hide them in the German forest
and connect them up with kilometres of cable whilst the rain pelted and the
lighting flashed all around. Amazing thing was that they use to work
sometimes.

I remember one six week exercise in which the regiment 'fought' its way from
near the Inner German Border to the Ty Croes range in Anglesey, deploying
tactically maybe five times, the last being in appalling weather, before
arriving at Ty Croes to spend the final two weeks live firing the missiles.
From arrival at Ty Croes, it took the weapons system engineer(who was the
only man in about 500 who absolutely knew every last wrinkle on the system)
a week to bring the fire control systems into a condition where they were
reliable to use. We user to have to hide him, physically, from the CO, so he
could at least get six hours kip in every 48.

Even then we had one missile go rogue, throw a U-ey and come straight back
at the Firing Control Post. An interesting few seconds whilst the junior
Lieutenant in charge decided he had lost control of it and had better hit
the Destruct button before the thing wiped us out. We came out of the bunker
to find bits of the missile all around it.

The RAF had a better experience with Bloodhound, housing the control systems
in buildings on static sites. However, the Thunderbird series, like their TV
namesakes, were a triumph of imagination over the realities of the
technology of the day.

Owen

[Owen Lewis]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 13 September 2004 19:20
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Owen Lewis
The discussion was of the introduction of computers into the British
army for administrative purposes.

Yes, so it was. So my aircraft-carrier punch-card systems win, then??

If you like. I feel like humouring you :-)

Owen

[David Hansen]

Post by Roland Perry
By analogy the UK-ID cards could be issued (say) anywhere there is a
municipal library, including the travelling ones.

Libraries are being closed down too, though not at the same rate as
post offices (at least at the moment).

Post by Roland Perry
no politician is going to make a martyr of the sort of case you
describe.

These cases usually arise because officials are only obeying orders. If
they make it into the mass media party politicians complain that their
orders have been misinterpreted.

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen

Post by Roland Perry
By analogy the UK-ID cards could be issued (say) anywhere there is a
municipal library, including the travelling ones.

Libraries are being closed down too, though not at the same rate as
post offices (at least at the moment).

Yes I know :-( The one in my old village in south Cambs was closed
recently. It was only open two days a a week, though. But such
discussions about closure, however regrettable, are only made after
genuine consultation with a relatively local council, even if that's
ignored (well what consumer would vote *for* closing a resource?) And
alternatives have to be explored. Such as a weekly visit by a mobile
library, which is what I think happened there.

Post office closures, on the other hand, seem much more commercially
drive by a faceless London-based crowd. Although most that I've seen
have been due to the family operating the sub-post office retiring and
no-one else wanting the job (which involves buying the premises and
business, I presume). That's quite a different model from libraries.

[Ian Johnson]

Post by Roland Perry
Post office closures, on the other hand, seem much more commercially
drive by a faceless London-based crowd. Although most that I've seen
have been due to the family operating the sub-post office
retiring and
no-one else wanting the job (which involves buying the premises and
business, I presume). That's quite a different model from libraries.

My local (at home) post office has closed. The next nearest involves
a descent of about 150m. Regardless of the distance which isn't too bad
I've regretted walking there when I'm pushing a pram. My 89 year old
neighbour now gets a lift from his son ever week.

There is a "consultation" currently ongoing about closing my
University's
post office. A cynic might think perfectly timed for the summer recess.
Bearing in mind the size of the campus and number of staff & students, I
can only guess it is driven by post office density rather than business.

Regards,

Ian

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian Johnson

Post by Roland Perry
Post office closures, on the other hand, seem much more commercially
drive by a faceless London-based crowd. Although most that I've seen
have been due to the family operating the sub-post office
retiring and
no-one else wanting the job (which involves buying the premises and
business, I presume). That's quite a different model from libraries.

My local (at home) post office has closed.

Do you know why? Was it because the business was unviable (too few core
customers, or too few customers for whatever corner-shop business it was
co-habiting with) or something else?

The two that I've seen closed near where I've lived: One was because the
owners retired and converted the premises in a victorian mid-terrace
back to a [very valuable] family home; they only cohabited with a
business selling envelopes, string and greetings cards that wasn't
viable stand-alone. Eventually a nearby grocery store cleared a corner
and re-established the sub-office. Two was because the owners retired,
and couldn't find anyone to take over the village sub-office/grocery
store as a going concern; a victim of Tescos in the nearby town.

[David Hansen]

Post by Roland Perry
Yes I know :-( The one in my old village in south Cambs was closed
recently. It was only open two days a a week, though.

Much the same with the one I am thinking of.

Post by Roland Perry
But such
discussions about closure, however regrettable, are only made after
genuine consultation with a relatively local council,

My "local" council is based in Glenrothes, not a place many locals want
to go to.

Post by Roland Perry
alternatives have to be explored. Such as a weekly visit by a mobile
library, which is what I think happened there.

That is what happened in the case I am thinking of, but it is not
really an alternative.

Post by Roland Perry
Post office closures, on the other hand, seem much more commercially
drive by a faceless London-based crowd.

One needs to distinguish between "main" post offices and "local" ones.
The former are certainly closed by a faceless London-based crowd, led
by the man who botched up professional football before continuing the
botching up of the post office.

Post by Roland Perry
Although most that I've seen
have been due to the family operating the sub-post office retiring and
no-one else wanting the job (which involves buying the premises and
business, I presume).

That tends to be the case with "local" offices.

What is interesting is that local outlets are being closed down in
favour of "call centres", firstly in the UK now in India and no doubt
soon China (which is undoubtedly where the Blunkettcard scheme will be
run from if the rogues are stupid enough to allow him to continue).
This relies on the fragile thing called telecommunications, yet those
in power have failed to think this through properly. RIP means that
these links cannot be protected properly. Even when proper protection
of such links is thought of the implementation is poor, as Ross has
demonstrated for a decade or so now. I doubt if all this is accidental,
it suits too many agendas.

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen

Post by Roland Perry
Post office closures, on the other hand, seem much more commercially
drive by a faceless London-based crowd.

One needs to distinguish between "main" post offices and "local" ones.
The former are certainly closed by a faceless London-based crowd, led
by the man who botched up professional football before continuing the
botching up of the post office.

It depends a little on the size of town, but many smaller towns have had
their "main" post offices closed, and replaced by a counter or two at
the back of a downmarket newsagent. I gather there are proposals to sell
of more of the remaining ones, such is the mismanagement at the Post
Office. Most organisations are desperate for prime High St Space, and
yet the PO doesn't know what to do with it.

Post by David Hansen

Post by Roland Perry
Although most that I've seen have been due to the family operating
the sub-post office retiring and no-one else wanting the job (which
involves buying the premises and business, I presume).

That tends to be the case with "local" offices.
What is interesting is that local outlets are being closed down in
favour of "call centres",

I don't think much that I used to do at a Post Office has been replaced
by a call centre, but banking and insurance have gone that way.

[Ian G Batten]

Post by Roland Perry
Office. Most organisations are desperate for prime High St Space, and

Yeah, right. You mean ``if only they could outbid the charity shops,
they'd open more premises?'' I've not been on a High Street outside the
M25 that doesn't have a couple of charity shops for some years, and
unless I'm missing something a charity shop is an automatic indicator
that supply exceeds demand. Oxfam are a distress customer of land
lords.

ian

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian G Batten

Post by Roland Perry
Office. Most organisations are desperate for prime High St Space, and

Yeah, right. You mean ``if only they could outbid the charity shops,
they'd open more premises?'' I've not been on a High Street outside the
M25 that doesn't have a couple of charity shops for some years, and
unless I'm missing something a charity shop is an automatic indicator
that supply exceeds demand. Oxfam are a distress customer of land
lords.

Charity shops in prime space? Things must be bad round your way. I do
see charity shops, but in secondary positions, which I agree do have an
oversupply in many areas.

[Brian Morrison]

On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:35:54 +0100 in

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian G Batten

Post by Roland Perry
Office. Most organisations are desperate for prime High St Space,

and
Yeah, right. You mean ``if only they could outbid the charity shops,
they'd open more premises?'' I've not been on a High Street outside
the M25 that doesn't have a couple of charity shops for some years,
and unless I'm missing something a charity shop is an automatic
indicator that supply exceeds demand. Oxfam are a distress customer
of land lords.

Charity shops in prime space? Things must be bad round your way. I do
see charity shops, but in secondary positions, which I agree do have
an oversupply in many areas.

We're getting close to the charity shop event horizon round here, with
apologies to Douglas Adams....

[Roland Perry]

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Roland Perry
Charity shops in prime space? Things must be bad round your way. I do
see charity shops, but in secondary positions, which I agree do have
an oversupply in many areas.

We're getting close to the charity shop event horizon round here, with
apologies to Douglas Adams....

My local "High St" (not big enough for a Crown PO, the sub-postoffice
has recently moved from a small charity-sized shop to be incorporated in
a brand new Co-Op supermarket which has about six checkouts to give you
some idea of scale) has five I think, from a total of about 40. So, yes,
quite noticeable. However they are all spread around. M&S have been
through a succession of planning appeals because they are keen to have a
shop. They are proposing knocking down a pub at the end of the High St
that's got a lot of land.

One retailer can't do a lot with five fragmented shopsites, but can make
good use of a single larger site (such as a Crown Post Office in a
larger town). Although I think few would be big enough for an M&S!

[Clive D. W. Feather]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Post by Roland Perry
Charity shops in prime space? Things must be bad round your way. I do
see charity shops, but in secondary positions, which I agree do have an
oversupply in many areas.

So to pick a location we both know, would great harm be done if the
Cambridge post office had to move from beside Robert Sayle to Bridge
Street, or to just outside the Grafton?

The post office in my bit of Finchley has just been closed down. There's
a charity shop 2 minutes walk away.

- --
Clive D.W. Feather | Home: <clive-fMmbJOuZRAcdnm+***@public.gmane.org>
Tel: [phone] (work) | Web: <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: [phone] | Work: <clive-***@public.gmane.org>
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: <clive-fMmbJOuZRAcdnm+***@public.gmane.org>

[Roland Perry]

Post by Clive D. W. Feather
So to pick a location we both know, would great harm be done if the
Cambridge post office had to move from beside Robert Sayle to Bridge
Street, or to just outside the Grafton?

Remember that what I said was: "Most organisations are desperate for
prime High St Space, and yet the PO doesn't know what to do with it."

Then consider the £millions that are being poured into redeveloping
Robert Sayle and the surrounding shops in Cambridge, because the
proposed tenants (Robert Sayle included) do indeed seem to be desperate
for the extra retail space.

I'm sure (apart from the minor detail that the main telephone exchange
is behind the PO) everyone would be delighted if the site of the Crown
Post Office was included in the redevelopment. Or as it isn't, you have
the Crown Post office in a prime situation, a carbuncle next to a new
development, with the PO wringing its hands and using the 2K sqft merely
to see how long a queue it can create of people buying postage stamps.

Now, for your question: No I don't think much harm would be done by the
moves you suggest. But why do you ask?

[Ian G Batten]

Post by Roland Perry
Then consider the £millions that are being poured into redeveloping
Robert Sayle and the surrounding shops in Cambridge, because the
proposed tenants (Robert Sayle included) do indeed seem to be desperate
for the extra retail space.

If Cambridge has a High St (as opposed to a mall) into which millions
are being poured, it's very unusual. I rather suspect that Scunthorpe,
Taunton and Bangor have different experiences.

ian

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian G Batten

Post by Roland Perry
Then consider the £millions that are being poured into redeveloping
Robert Sayle and the surrounding shops in Cambridge, because the
proposed tenants (Robert Sayle included) do indeed seem to be desperate
for the extra retail space.

If Cambridge has a High St (as opposed to a mall) into which millions
are being poured, it's very unusual. I rather suspect that Scunthorpe,
Taunton and Bangor have different experiences.

Cambridge is laid out as a matrix, rather than a strip, and therefore
doesn't have a "High St" as such. The new development creates what you
might call a Mall, but the shopfronts on the longer side of it are on
the street most likely to be the High St, should one need to be
nominated. In particular it has the largest surviving Department Store
(John Lewis) and the Crown Post Office in it, and across the street is
the bus station, and behind it the central car park.

How many of Scunthorpe, Taunton and Bangor still have Crown Post Offices
(he asked in a desperate attempt to keep the subthread drifting off
topic again).

[Brian Beesley]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian G Batten

Post by Roland Perry
Office. Most organisations are desperate for prime High St Space, and

Yeah, right. You mean ``if only they could outbid the charity shops,
they'd open more premises?'' I've not been on a High Street outside the
M25 that doesn't have a couple of charity shops for some years, and
unless I'm missing something a charity shop is an automatic indicator
that supply exceeds demand. Oxfam are a distress customer of land
lords.

Charity shops in prime space? Things must be bad round your way. I do
see charity shops, but in secondary positions, which I agree do have an
oversupply in many areas.

Same round here. The point being that high street shopping is more or less
dead. People prefer to go to out-of-town shopping centres, where there is
more choice, savings due to bulk buying power of large chains over small
independent shops, reasonable road access and adequate parking facilities.
Nobody uses public transport for shopping these days - too inconvenient, too
expensive. Even the "transport challenged" who can't or won't drive use taxis
to access shopping centres instead of bus to access high street shops.

As for post offices, well the two or three I use reasonably regularly always
seem to have queues, so I can't see that they're doing all that badly.
Whether they're making a profit or not I simply can't say, but I don't think
the Government helps small shopkeepers in general anything like enough, and
I'm pretty sure the Post Office is no exception.

The people I feel sorry for are those that don't have reasonable access to a
post office; unfortunately the number of people deprived of a local post
office with reasonable services seems to be increasing at an exponential rate.

Brian Beesley

[Roland Perry]

Post by Brian Beesley
The point being that high street shopping is more or less
dead. People prefer to go to out-of-town shopping centres, where there is
more choice, savings due to bulk buying power of large chains over small
independent shops, reasonable road access and adequate parking facilities.

Well, this is certainly not the place for a usenet-style debate about
High St versus out of town shopping and the various transport issues
raised. Suffice it to say that the very heart of Cambridge (and also
Nottingham) is being redeveloped for new High Street shops, so their
death has been a little exaggerated.

Post by Brian Beesley
As for post offices, well the two or three I use reasonably regularly always
seem to have queues, so I can't see that they're doing all that badly.

Rofl! The queues are because they are badly run. But also look at the
tiny average transaction values.

Post by Brian Beesley
Whether they're making a profit or not I simply can't say

It's been stated loudly and regularly that they making the most horrific
loss (that's why the PO wants to close them).

[Ian G Batten]

Post by Roland Perry
Charity shops in prime space? Things must be bad round your way. I do

To take a case in point, Harborne in Birmingham, which is where the
south west Birmingham professional middle-classes have gone now that the
BVT is seen as too suburban and not exclusive enough (all those rented
houses, your see, bring in the wrong sort of people). The houses around
it are silly money, the High Street is impassable at times due to the
badly parked 4x4s of the high maintenance Harborne housewives who
constitute the local ladies who lunch, the local state secondary schools
are in free-fall because everyone (dahling!) sends their children to the
local private schools and the M&S food-only store does a roaring trade.

There's a charity shop in every block of the High Street. Because for
practical purposes no-one local shops in the local shops aside from the
M&S, because the demographics don't overlap.

ian

[Roland Perry]

Post by Ian G Batten
There's a charity shop in every block of the High Street. Because for
practical purposes no-one local shops in the local shops aside from the
M&S, because the demographics don't overlap.

I think there is some slight confusion in the definition of High St. I
recognise the situation you describe, but my remarks (and most remaining
Crown Post Offices) pertain to County Towns and other large places. Not
collections of suburban shopping that did once have a critical mass.

[David Hansen]

Post by Roland Perry
I don't think much that I used to do at a Post Office has been replaced
by a call centre, but banking and insurance have gone that way.

That depends on what one did. Banking, bills and forms are things that
are moving or have moved in that direction. Even buying stamps and
envelopes can be done that way.

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen

Post by Roland Perry
I don't think much that I used to do at a Post Office has been replaced
by a call centre, but banking and insurance have gone that way.

That depends on what one did. Banking, bills and forms are things that
are moving or have moved in that direction. Even buying stamps and
envelopes can be done that way.

I suppose that I might do a TV licence via a call centre instead of a
Post Office, but that data is easier to get by asking the TV licensing
people than tapping a phone to India. I'm struggling to think of any
non-governmental thing that I used to do at a Post office at all, never
mind do now at a call centre. But if the Post Office are doing telesales
of stationery, that could be one - although I don't think I've every
bought any from a Post Office, Staples is rather cheaper!

[David Hansen]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Ian Johnson
It's very rare I need either. I tend to only need my passport in
August, and I can't remember the last time I needed my driving licence.

What I forgot to add was that this would mop up perhaps 80% of the
population.

What this demonstrates is thet the Home Office are not the bungling
fools they and their advocates sometimes claim. Making "identity" cards
compulsory for those who want a passport or driving licence is an
extrememly sneaky trick and shows just how devious they are.

Had they instead said to plebs, "if you would like your passport or
driving licence to be endorsed as an "identity" card then please tick
this box and add £40 to your cheque" then that would be a different
matter.

[Roland Perry]

Post by David Hansen
Had they instead said to plebs, "if you would like your passport or
driving licence to be endorsed as an "identity" card then please tick
this box and add £40 to your cheque" then that would be a different
matter.

The plebs can see these proposals on the Passport Agency website. It's
nice to have been part of the IT revolution that makes this possible -
previously they'd have had to get on their horse and go to Swansea (or
wherever) to examine such documents.

[David Hansen]

Post by Roland Perry
The plebs can see these proposals on the Passport Agency website. It's
nice to have been part of the IT revolution that makes this possible -
previously they'd have had to get on their horse and go to Swansea (or
wherever) to examine such documents.

That part of that revolution is indeed good. Other parts are not.
However, that revolution does not change the fact that it is intended
to make getting a Blunkettcard compulsory if someone wants a passport
or driving licence (or renews one). This reduction in choice doesn't
seem to concern Messers Blunkett and Liar, yet they constantly preach
choice.

[David_Biggins-XjoIEpZFQiJWk0Htik3J/]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors
We seem to be converging on the view that there is no-one capable of
issuing anything. So we have driving examiners who give a "pass" to
avoid being beaten up and Post Offices routinely giving out
tax disks to
people with no insurance because they've been slipped a
tenner. What a
state we are in.

As has been demonstrated, we certainly live in a world where police officers
pass information on dissidents to foreign governments and corporate
interests; I find it surprising that you think lesser offences of the kind
you describe are so wholly unlikely.

We are indeed in something of a state - the main question at hand is whether
current government policies are indeed an answer to such problems, or an
exacerbation of them.

However, while the government seems intent on creating penalties on the
public for not being willing to follow its slightest whim, but perpetuating
the opportunities for those inside the tent to escape significant penalty
when caught abusing their powers, I remain cynical.

I await the sentence on PC Kassim, and announcement of the penalties on the
officers who revealed details of the McLibel pair, in the faint and dismal
hope that one day penalties for abusing establishment power may one day
actually start to reflect the damage that such people do to society. I
will not, however, hold my breath.


Dave.

[David_Biggins-XjoIEpZFQiJWk0Htik3J/]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors
I remember showing some of the multiuser CP/M systems I was
working on
at the time to the folks from Army stores in Bicester. They
wanted them
for stock control, in the field, which was a bit scary at the time.
79-80 timeframe.

I'm becoming increasingly convinced we may have met back then. I was
somewhat active in those same areas at that time with Comart and Bytesoft.


Dave.

[Roland Perry]

In article

Post by David_Biggins-XjoIEpZFQiJWk0Htik3J/
I'm becoming increasingly convinced we may have met back then. I was
somewhat active in those same areas at that time with Comart and Bytesoft.

Names that ring a bell. I was running the Sintrom MicroShop and was
quite chummy with Newbear. I didn't sell much Cromemco (probably the
best brand then) as iirc it was Comart that had the agency sewn up.

[Brian Gladman]

Post by Roland Perry
In article

Post by David_Biggins-XjoIEpZFQiJWk0Htik3J/
I'm becoming increasingly convinced we may have met back then. I was
somewhat active in those same areas at that time with Comart and Bytesoft.

Names that ring a bell. I was running the Sintrom MicroShop and was
quite chummy with Newbear.

Tim Moore maybe?

Brian Gladman

[Roland Perry]

Post by Brian Gladman

I was running the Sintrom MicroShop and was quite chummy with
Newbear.

Tim Moore maybe?

Yep.

[David_Biggins-XjoIEpZFQiJWk0Htik3J/]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors
In article
.brhm.cable

Post by David_Biggins-XjoIEpZFQiJWk0Htik3J/
I'm becoming increasingly convinced we may have met back

then. I was

Post by David_Biggins-XjoIEpZFQiJWk0Htik3J/
somewhat active in those same areas at that time with Comart

and Bytesoft.
Names that ring a bell. I was running the Sintrom MicroShop and was
quite chummy with Newbear. I didn't sell much Cromemco (probably the
best brand then) as iirc it was Comart that had the agency sewn up.

Ah yes - there's not so many of us left who still remember those names -
especially Bytesoft.

And yes, we did have the Cromemco agency, as well as NorthStar (and via the
Byte Shops later the first IBM dealerships). I did have some contact with
Sintrom, but for the life of me I can't remember what.

Dave.

[David_Biggins-XjoIEpZFQiJWk0Htik3J/]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors

Post by Brian Gladman

I was running the Sintrom MicroShop and was quite chummy with
Newbear.

Tim Moore maybe?

Yep.

And there was a name I'd forgotten.

Dave.

[Pemble, Matthew]

Folks,

My first ships were HMS Glamorgan and HMS Fife (County Class Destroyers aka
"Mountbattens Cruisers"), dating back to the early 60s.

Post by David Hansen
Their interest in analogue computing dates back around 100
years. Fire
control for warships (initially just the large ones) was based on
mechanical analogue computers (called fire control tables). These are
most interesting devices to look at, were very expensive to build and
the methods of doing things like differentiation fascinating.

We had small (3' x 2' x 2') mechanical analogue computers for anti-aircraft
fire calculations for the main guns (2 x Vickers twin turret). By the time
I was responsible for them, some of the precision gears had broken and they
were no longer as accurate as they once (or ever) were, but I had great fun
lobbing 4.5" bricks at the RAF with these (with an added lag for "safety",
boo, hiss).

Post by David Hansen
Analogue computing using electrical components would be a
step forward.
Indeed in the 1920s they introduced a very simple analogue
transmission
system to take information from the fire control table to guns. This
had the benefit of varying the speed of the gun depending on how far
away it was from where it should be aimed, obviously within limits.

We also had ADAWS1 for the SeaSlug fire control. By the time I got there,
it had been transistorised, so there was 1 large box, in the middle of a
fairly enormous and empty computer room, which had once housed > 100
equivalent boxes with the valve gear.

__________________________________

Matthew Pemble
Manager, Investigation & Threat Management
Group Information Security
Royal Bank of Scotland Group

Tel (Edin): 0131 523 9054 ITS: (777) 229054
Tel (Lond): 020 7615 2275 ITS: (777) 332275
Mob: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
E-mail: matthew.pemble-8gHNRtzdcB1aa/***@public.gmane.org
__________________________________



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[David_Biggins-XjoIEpZFQiJWk0Htik3J/]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors
I still own some of the core planes from the Elliott that I
learned to
programme on.

Assuming that's an 803/803B (which I also learned to program on), there's
one been rebuilt in the computer conservation society at the science museum
in London - it's relatively easy to arrange a visit and a look-see.

Dave.