OT - Spanking...Should You or Shouldn't You?

[Too_Many_Tools]

I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."

Whether parents should spank their children or use other forms of
physical discipline is controversial. Some experts argue that children
should not be spanked when they act out citing evidence that it leads
to more, rather than fewer, behavior problems and it could escalate
into physical abuse. There are data to support this argument.

Other experts, however, argue that the effects of spanking and physical
discipline might depend on the characteristics of the child and family
and the circumstances in which it is used.

To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey. She told
Reuters Health that "across the six countries studied, children who
were physically disciplined more frequently were more aggressive and
anxious than were children who were physically disciplined less
frequently."

"However, in countries where the use of physical discipline was more
common, being physically disciplined more frequently was not related as
strongly to aggression and anxiety as it was in countries where
physical discipline was less frequently used," she said.

Not surprisingly, in Thailand, a country where peace-promoting Buddhist
teachings predominant, moms were least likely to spank their children
or use other forms of physical discipline.

In Kenya, on the other hand, where use of physical discipline is common
and considered normal for the most part, moms were most likely to spank
or engage in similar disciplinary tactics. In a study conducted in
Kenya in 2003, 57 percent of grandmothers reported caning, pinching,
slapping, tying with a rope, hitting, beating, and kicking as forms of
discipline they had used on their grandchildren.

One question the findings raise, according to Lansford, is whether
being physically disciplined more frequently causes an increase in
aggression and anxiety or whether children who are already aggressive
and anxious are simply physically disciplined more often. "On the basis
of other work conducted in the United States, the answer is probably
some of each," Lansford said.

"Another question is whether physical discipline is appropriate in this
day and age, regardless of how accepted it may be," she added.

SOURCE: Child Development, November/December 2005

[Stuart Grey]

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

< snip >

Post by Too_Many_Tools
To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Anthropolotical studies have shown that if you just ASK this, people in
just about every culture will lie and say they don't use corporal
punishment. It is an excellent way to produce bogus data for liberal
propaganda, however.

Corporal punishment of misbehaving children is pan human.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey.

I wouldn't call anyone a scientist who uses methods that are known to
produce bogus results. They are propagandists.

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:08:50 -0800, the renowned Stuart Grey

Post by Stuart Grey
< snip >

Post by Too_Many_Tools
To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Anthropolotical studies have shown that if you just ASK this, people in
just about every culture will lie and say they don't use corporal
punishment. It is an excellent way to produce bogus data for liberal
propaganda, however.
Corporal punishment of misbehaving children is pan human.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey.

I wouldn't call anyone a scientist who uses methods that are known to
produce bogus results. They are propagandists.

Does it prove that kids that are spanked act up more than kids who are
not, or that kids who act like little monsters are more likely to get
their bums paddled?

That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

[Doug Kanter]

Post by Spehro Pefhany
That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.

You should hang around rec.boats a few times a week and listen to the
wankers who say "Well...since we invaded Iraq, we haven't had any terrorist
attacks here, so the war must be working." It's enough to make you puke.

[Koz]

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by Spehro Pefhany
That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.

You should hang around rec.boats a few times a week and listen to the
wankers who say "Well...since we invaded Iraq, we haven't had any terrorist
attacks here, so the war must be working." It's enough to make you puke.

Not meaning to spur debate in a dumb direction here but simply follow up
with "fewer people were killed in the US by terrorist attacks during
Clinton's watch so it PROVES Clinton did a better job of protecting the
US from terrorist than Bush and Billions on homeland security". It
makes as much sense as the argument that's making you fill the bucket :)

Koz (who is perfectly happy with those who argue opposite of his
left-wing pinko-commie leanings but HATES letting argumentative fallcies
slide)

[Doug Kanter]

Post by Koz

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by Spehro Pefhany
That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.

You should hang around rec.boats a few times a week and listen to the
wankers who say "Well...since we invaded Iraq, we haven't had any
terrorist attacks here, so the war must be working." It's enough to make
you puke.

Not meaning to spur debate in a dumb direction here but simply follow up
with "fewer people were killed in the US by terrorist attacks during
Clinton's watch so it PROVES Clinton did a better job of protecting the US
from terrorist than Bush and Billions on homeland security". It makes as
much sense as the argument that's making you fill the bucket :)
Koz (who is perfectly happy with those who argue opposite of his left-wing
pinko-commie leanings but HATES letting argumentative fallcies slide)

Also during Clinton's reign, I didn't smash my toe on the coffee table, not
even once, so obviously, we were safer. On the other hand, I sliced the
phuque out of my finger last week with a scary-sharp kitchen knife.

[Ignoramus14135]

This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
newsgroups.

I think that you need some spankin'!

By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
small children.

Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
the fuck are they bring beaten for.

i

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
TMT
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."
Whether parents should spank their children or use other forms of
physical discipline is controversial. Some experts argue that children
should not be spanked when they act out citing evidence that it leads
to more, rather than fewer, behavior problems and it could escalate
into physical abuse. There are data to support this argument.
Other experts, however, argue that the effects of spanking and physical
discipline might depend on the characteristics of the child and family
and the circumstances in which it is used.
To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.
Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey. She told
Reuters Health that "across the six countries studied, children who
were physically disciplined more frequently were more aggressive and
anxious than were children who were physically disciplined less
frequently."
"However, in countries where the use of physical discipline was more
common, being physically disciplined more frequently was not related as
strongly to aggression and anxiety as it was in countries where
physical discipline was less frequently used," she said.
Not surprisingly, in Thailand, a country where peace-promoting Buddhist
teachings predominant, moms were least likely to spank their children
or use other forms of physical discipline.
In Kenya, on the other hand, where use of physical discipline is common
and considered normal for the most part, moms were most likely to spank
or engage in similar disciplinary tactics. In a study conducted in
Kenya in 2003, 57 percent of grandmothers reported caning, pinching,
slapping, tying with a rope, hitting, beating, and kicking as forms of
discipline they had used on their grandchildren.
One question the findings raise, according to Lansford, is whether
being physically disciplined more frequently causes an increase in
aggression and anxiety or whether children who are already aggressive
and anxious are simply physically disciplined more often. "On the basis
of other work conducted in the United States, the answer is probably
some of each," Lansford said.
"Another question is whether physical discipline is appropriate in this
day and age, regardless of how accepted it may be," she added.
SOURCE: Child Development, November/December 2005

--

[E.B.]

Post by Ignoramus14135
This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
newsgroups.
I think that you need some spankin'!
By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
small children.
Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
the fuck are they bring beaten for.

I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the shit out of me
for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.

[Doug Kanter]

Post by E.B.

Post by Ignoramus14135
This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
newsgroups.
I think that you need some spankin'!
By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
small children.
Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
the fuck are they bring beaten for.

I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the shit out of me
for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.

I think one problem is that some parents don't have the time, the balls or
both when it comes to following through with consequences. I have a relative
who's famous for this: "J, if you don't stop that......", and she never
finishes the sentence. The kid's never seen a consequence his entire life,
and it shows.

[Jeff McCann]

Post by E.B.

Post by Ignoramus14135
This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
newsgroups.
I think that you need some spankin'!
By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
small children.
Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
the fuck are they bring beaten for.

I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the shit out of me
for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.

Note that there is a difference between using spanking occasionally as
one of many disciplinary tools, done without anger in appropriate
circumstances, and whipping a child for the smallest things. I only got
spanked for things that were intentionally mean or personally dangerous,
and I can almost pass for normal today. ;-)

Jeff

[Doug Kanter]

Post by E.B.

Post by Ignoramus14135
This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
newsgroups.
I think that you need some spankin'!
By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
small children.
Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
the fuck are they bring beaten for.

I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the shit out of me
for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.

Note that there is a difference between using spanking occasionally as one
of many disciplinary tools, done without anger in appropriate
circumstances, and whipping a child for the smallest things. I only got
spanked for things that were intentionally mean or personally dangerous,
and I can almost pass for normal today. ;-)
Jeff

....except for that twitch, and the 5000 rounds of ammo in your closet,
"just in case". :-)

[Dave Jackson]

Amen, Jeff
I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them more
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to paddling.
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT tell
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a polite
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave

Post by E.B.

Post by Ignoramus14135
This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
newsgroups.
I think that you need some spankin'!
By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
small children.
Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
the fuck are they bring beaten for.

I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the shit out of me
for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.

Note that there is a difference between using spanking occasionally as one
of many disciplinary tools, done without anger in appropriate
circumstances, and whipping a child for the smallest things. I only got
spanked for things that were intentionally mean or personally dangerous,
and I can almost pass for normal today. ;-)
Jeff

[Swingman]

"Dave Jackson" wrote in message

Post by Dave Jackson
I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them more
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to paddling.
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT tell
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a polite
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave

Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and uncommon
sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the immediate
consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.

You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what it
is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.

All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his belt
buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.

[Kenneth]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"

Post by Swingman
"Dave Jackson" wrote in message

Post by Dave Jackson
I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them

more

Post by Dave Jackson
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to

paddling.

Post by Dave Jackson
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT

tell

Post by Dave Jackson
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a

polite

Post by Dave Jackson
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave

Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and uncommon
sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the immediate
consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.
You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what it
is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.
All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his belt
buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

All the best,

[Dave Lyon]

Post by Kenneth
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act? :)

[Kenneth]

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:37:05 GMT, "Dave Lyon"

Post by Dave Lyon

Post by Kenneth
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act? :)

One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
adjusted kid.

All the best,

[l***@wood.com]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:50:43 -0500, Kenneth

Post by Kenneth
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:37:05 GMT, "Dave Lyon"

Post by Dave Lyon

Post by Kenneth
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act? :)

One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
adjusted kid.
All the best,

Now that's special a perfect father to a perfect son.
So just what and the hell is a "well adjusted kid"? Adjusted to What?
Adjusted to You? Adjusted to the weather? Adjusted to the new dog?
You have a six year old boy who is well adjusted, knows right from
wrong, and is happy. I guess your job is done, time to send him off to
college.

[Alex]

Post by l***@wood.com
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:50:43 -0500, Kenneth

Post by Kenneth
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:37:05 GMT, "Dave Lyon"

Post by Dave Lyon

Post by Kenneth
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act? :)

One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
adjusted kid.
All the best,

Now that's special a perfect father to a perfect son.
So just what and the hell is a "well adjusted kid"? Adjusted to What?
Adjusted to You? Adjusted to the weather? Adjusted to the new dog?
You have a six year old boy who is well adjusted, knows right from
wrong, and is happy. I guess your job is done, time to send him off to
college.

"well adjusted" is a right term and used in a right content.

Here is an article suggesting that if your kid needs spanking there is a chance that
origin of that behavior is YOUR behavior:
http://www.brightsurf.com/news/headlines/view.article.php?ArticleID=20942

Warm, nurturing parents have well-adjusted adolescents
September 14, 2005

Although preadolescents and adolescents might think their parents hold no sway over
them, a study published in the September/October issue of the journal Child Development
finds just the opposite – early parenting style makes a big difference in how a child
turns out.

Researchers from Arizona State University in Tempe evaluated 186 adolescents three times
over a six-year period, once every two years from the time the children were about 9 to
about age 13. They used parent and teacher reports to evaluate how well adjusted the
children were in terms of aggression, antisocial and delinquent behavior, and how well
the children were able to “self-regulate,” i.e., inhibit their behavior when necessary
and control their emotions and behavior.

The researchers assessed the children’s self-regulation by measuring their persistence
in completing a frustrating task (rather than cheating or giving up), along with reports
from parents and teachers. Additionally, they observed the parents’ (mostly mothers’)
warmth and positive emotions as they interacted with their child during each of the
three assessments.

The researchers found that parenting, youths’ self-regulation, and youths’ adjustment
were generally related to each other within and across time. Additionally, they found
evidence that parents who interacted warmly and positively with their children at the
youngest age (the first assessment) had children who were relatively self-regulated two
years later, and, in turn, exhibited fewer problem behaviors at the final assessment.

“Our results are consistent with the view that parenting affects children’s
self-regulation and their overall adjustment,” said study author Nancy Eisenberg, Ph.D.,
Regents’ professor of psychology at Arizona State University in Tempe.

“Thus, the quality of parent-child interactions in childhood seems to foreshadow whether
young adolescents experience behavioral problems in adolescence, and this relation
appears to be at least partly due to the fact that warm, positive parents have children
who are well regulated,” she said.

“Because warm parenting seems to foster children’s self-regulation, it is likely to
contribute to youths’ positive functioning in a variety of areas.”



Society for Research in Child Development

[Deborah Kelly]

I'm not a link follower so I didn't click on the link but I just read that
artical and it had nothing to do with spanking. Who says if you spank your
kids you are not a warm andd affectionate parent? Of course your parenting
skills<or what ever you want to call them, is going to effect how your
children turn out in the long run. But I say again that artical had nothing
to do with spanking.

Deborah

"Alex" <***@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:fCvgf.23568
"well adjusted" is a right term and used in a right content.

Here is an article suggesting that if your kid needs spanking there is a
chance that
origin of that behavior is YOUR behavior:
http://www.brightsurf.com/news/headlines/view.article.php?ArticleID=20942

Warm, nurturing parents have well-adjusted adolescents
September 14, 2005

Although preadolescents and adolescents might think their parents hold no
sway over
them, a study published in the September/October issue of the journal Child
Development
finds just the opposite – early parenting style makes a big difference in
how a child
turns out.

Researchers from Arizona State University in Tempe evaluated 186 adolescents
three times
over a six-year period, once every two years from the time the children were
about 9 to
about age 13. They used parent and teacher reports to evaluate how well
adjusted the
children were in terms of aggression, antisocial and delinquent behavior,
and how well
the children were able to “self-regulate,” i.e., inhibit their behavior when
necessary
and control their emotions and behavior.

The researchers assessed the children’s self-regulation by measuring their
persistence
in completing a frustrating task (rather than cheating or giving up), along
with reports
from parents and teachers. Additionally, they observed the parents’ (mostly
mothers’)
warmth and positive emotions as they interacted with their child during each
of the
three assessments.

The researchers found that parenting, youths’ self-regulation, and youths’
adjustment
were generally related to each other within and across time. Additionally,
they found
evidence that parents who interacted warmly and positively with their
children at the
youngest age (the first assessment) had children who were relatively
self-regulated two
years later, and, in turn, exhibited fewer problem behaviors at the final
assessment.

“Our results are consistent with the view that parenting affects children’s
self-regulation and their overall adjustment,” said study author Nancy
Eisenberg, Ph.D.,
Regents’ professor of psychology at Arizona State University in Tempe.

“Thus, the quality of parent-child interactions in childhood seems to
foreshadow whether
young adolescents experience behavioral problems in adolescence, and this
relation
appears to be at least partly due to the fact that warm, positive parents
have children
who are well regulated,” she said.

“Because warm parenting seems to foster children’s self-regulation, it is
likely to
contribute to youths’ positive functioning in a variety of areas.”



Society for Research in Child Development

[Alex]

Deborah ,

sorry, I should have been more clear what I meant. This article implies
that if you have "perfect" relations between your family members there
is a less likelihood of need to spank.

[Dave Lyon]

Post by l***@wood.com

Post by Kenneth
One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
adjusted kid.
All the best,

Now that's special a perfect father to a perfect son.
So just what and the hell is a "well adjusted kid"? Adjusted to What?
Adjusted to You? Adjusted to the weather? Adjusted to the new dog?
You have a six year old boy who is well adjusted, knows right from
wrong, and is happy. I guess your job is done, time to send him off to
college.

That was a little overboard don't you think? Isn't it possible that he has
raised a child to the age of 6 that is well adjusted? Just because he
doesn't agree with our methods does not mean his methods don't work.

[w***@little.com]

Post by Dave Lyon
That was a little overboard don't you think? Isn't it possible that he has
raised a child to the age of 6 that is well adjusted? Just because he
doesn't agree with our methods does not mean his methods don't work.

No Dave I think his spin on hitting was a bit overboard, don't you?
You have no idea of my methods, I haven't stated them.
Answer the question..what in the world is a well adjusted 6 year old
boy. What is he adjusted to?
I raised 3 they were all different. My sister has 5 kids, each is
different.
I what to know what is the standard or means by which you can tell if
a 6 year old is "well adjusted" or is heading for prison. Just where
do you get one of those yardsticks to measure how adjusted your kid
is. Do they give you one at Barns and Noble when you buy a "How to
Raise A Well Adjusted Child" Book.
Don't you think he is just a little bit overboard with his response to
Swingmans post? Don't think he was spinning at Swingmans expense.
Anyone who has raised a few kids knows firsthand that a label like
well adjusted is BS.
You can tell abused kids, ask any school counselor. The rest are just
kids. Parents with perfect well adjusted kids drive school
administrators nuts. Their kids are all innocent and its always the
other kids fault.

I have great kids, why? Their mine and I love them. Their perfect in
my eyes, their mistakes don't detract from their image.
Was I a good parent? What I consider to be the acid test, as teens and
adults they come to me for advise when they have problems. They know I
won't judge them with a label or standard like "well adjusted".

Well, Dave, you still don't know what my methods are. But maybe you
know what I think about pigeon hole labels like"well adjusted". Or
parents who apply them in an attempt to spin an argument to say that
their method is perfect and anything less is abuse and will result in
a child who is less then "well adjusted". That also applies to the
other side of the argument. The notion that you can't raise a great
kid without spanking them is BS too

PS Dave,
Unless you are going to apply your "over the top" standard to all
involved, just shut up. I'm a baby booming Spock child, I was never
spanked and was always told how great and well adjusted I was, as such
I have never experienced any real limits to my behavior. I impose my
own limits.

I think Ken owes Swingman an apology for his over the top spin. That's
what any "well adjusted" child would do. He can ask his 6 year old
for advise!
Whoops, there I go again, over the top.
Peace to you Dave:-]

[Dave Lyon]

Post by w***@little.com
No Dave I think his spin on hitting was a bit overboard, don't you?

Yes, I do, but that wasn't really my point. Of course usenet has a way of
filtering out ones intent, but it seemed to me you were attacking him for
his views. It appeared to me that you didn't believe his child was well
behaved (I intentionally didn't use "well adjusted")

Post by w***@little.com
You have no idea of my methods, I haven't stated them.

True, I simply made an assumption based on my interpretation of your
reaction.

Post by w***@little.com
Answer the question..what in the world is a well adjusted 6 year old
boy. What is he adjusted to?
I raised 3 they were all different. My sister has 5 kids, each is
different.
I what to know what is the standard or means by which you can tell if
a 6 year old is "well adjusted" or is heading for prison. Just where
do you get one of those yardsticks to measure how adjusted your kid
is. Do they give you one at Barns and Noble when you buy a "How to
Raise A Well Adjusted Child" Book.

Sorry, I guess I can't answer that question. I can however give examples of
behavior that is unacceptable to me. It's quite possible that his yardstick
for "well adjusted" is different than mine, or yours.

Post by w***@little.com
Parents with perfect well adjusted kids drive school
administrators nuts. Their kids are all innocent and its always the
other kids fault.

I've met plenty of parents like that. Their yardstick is obviously different
than mine.

Post by w***@little.com
I have great kids, why? Their mine and I love them. Their perfect in
my eyes, their mistakes don't detract from their image.

I have great kids too, but they're not perfect even to me.

Post by w***@little.com
Was I a good parent? What I consider to be the acid test, as teens and
adults they come to me for advise when they have problems. They know I
won't judge them with a label or standard like "well adjusted".
Well, Dave, you still don't know what my methods are. But maybe you
know what I think about pigeon hole labels like"well adjusted". Or
parents who apply them in an attempt to spin an argument to say that
their method is perfect and anything less is abuse and will result in
a child who is less then "well adjusted". That also applies to the
other side of the argument. The notion that you can't raise a great
kid without spanking them is BS too

I think we agree for the most part. It just seems like you are a little
caught up on the term "well adjusted". I read that phrase as "my child acts
appropriately for his age and the situation". Perhaps my interpretation is
wrong.

Post by w***@little.com
PS Dave,
Unless you are going to apply your "over the top" standard to all
involved, just shut up. I'm a baby booming Spock child, I was never
spanked and was always told how great and well adjusted I was, as such
I have never experienced any real limits to my behavior. I impose my
own limits.

I'm simply stating my opinion. Others are welcome to their opinion, even if
they're wrong. :)

BTW, I think Spock is an idiot. What's your opinion? Do you feal like your
parents did a good job, or do you wish they had done something different?

Post by w***@little.com
I think Ken owes Swingman an apology for his over the top spin. That's
what any "well adjusted" child would do. He can ask his 6 year old
for advise!
Whoops, there I go again, over the top.

True, Ken was trying to spin his post, doesn't everybody?

Post by w***@little.com
Peace to you Dave:-]

Right back at ya. :)

[Doug Kanter]

Post by l***@wood.com
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:50:43 -0500, Kenneth

Post by Kenneth
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:37:05 GMT, "Dave Lyon"

Post by Dave Lyon

Post by Kenneth
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...
All the best,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act? :)

One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
adjusted kid.
All the best,

Now that's special a perfect father to a perfect son.
So just what and the hell is a "well adjusted kid"? Adjusted to What?
Adjusted to You? Adjusted to the weather? Adjusted to the new dog?
You have a six year old boy who is well adjusted, knows right from
wrong, and is happy. I guess your job is done, time to send him off to
college.

So...you're suggesting that because the kid hasn't been hit, something's
missing from his life? Clue: Some people are better than others at using
words, which is one thing that makes some parents, teachers, clergymen,
managers and political leaders better than others. If you think that every
child will need physical punishment, you're sorely misguided.

[technomaNge]

Post by Kenneth
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"

-------------------

Post by Kenneth
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...

If that truly is your position and experience, when the opportunity
arises to meet you and your misbehaving children I will politely
refuse.

technomaNge

[Doug Kanter]

Post by Proctologically Violated©®

Post by Kenneth
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"

-------------------

Post by Kenneth
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight. Now that would be a lesson...

If that truly is your position and experience, when the opportunity
arises to meet you and your misbehaving children I will politely
refuse.

For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand the
rules?

[Ignoramus1487]

Post by Doug Kanter
For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand the
rules?

First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
exploring or imitating adults.

For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
a glass.

Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.

Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
that they deserve.

The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.

The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
what's not allowed.

Besides the fact that most instances of misbehavior are properly
addresses by looking at their causes, punishment is a valid concept
and is not reducable to spanking only.

There are numerous punishments that do not involve violence.

I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.

i

[Dave Lyon]

Post by Ignoramus1487
I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.
i

There is a lot of intelligence in your post (including the part I snipped).

However, it appears as if you think spanking and violence are synonyms. They
are not.

[Ignoramus1487]

Post by Dave Lyon

Post by Ignoramus1487
I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.
i

There is a lot of intelligence in your post (including the part I snipped).
However, it appears as if you think spanking and violence are synonyms. They
are not.

You are correct. While all spanking is violence (what else is it),
some forms of violence (such as beheading or rape or bayonetting) are
not spanking.

i

[Doug Kanter]

Post by Ignoramus1487

Post by Doug Kanter
For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand the
rules?

First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
exploring or imitating adults.
For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
a glass.
Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.
Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
that they deserve.
The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.
The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
what's not allowed.

The tantrum thing is interesting. My ex-wife, a speech pathologist, has to
deal with little kids all day long. Her technique for tantrums worked
nicely: Quickly determine if there's a good reason for it (fatigue, problem
with sibling, etc). Usually, there's not. So, handle the kid as you would if
he were having a seizure. Put him somewhere safe and let the tantrum run its
course.

Later, she came across a fascinating article which suggested (per research)
that tantrums occur to some extent in all kids because a certain part of the
brain has not yet developed. Made sense.

Post by Ignoramus1487
Besides the fact that most instances of misbehavior are properly
addresses by looking at their causes, punishment is a valid concept
and is not reducable to spanking only.
There are numerous punishments that do not involve violence.
I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.

I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

[Ignoramus1487]

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by Ignoramus1487

Post by Doug Kanter
For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand the
rules?

First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
exploring or imitating adults.
For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
a glass.
Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.
Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
that they deserve.
The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.
The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
what's not allowed.

The tantrum thing is interesting. My ex-wife, a speech pathologist, has to
deal with little kids all day long. Her technique for tantrums worked
nicely: Quickly determine if there's a good reason for it (fatigue, problem
with sibling, etc). Usually, there's not. So, handle the kid as you would if
he were having a seizure. Put him somewhere safe and let the tantrum run its
course.
Later, she came across a fascinating article which suggested (per research)
that tantrums occur to some extent in all kids because a certain part of the
brain has not yet developed. Made sense.

Interesting. I know some adults whose brains did not develop the
anti-tantrum centers...

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by Ignoramus1487
Besides the fact that most instances of misbehavior are properly
addresses by looking at their causes, punishment is a valid concept
and is not reducable to spanking only.
There are numerous punishments that do not involve violence.
I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.

I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

What a dumbass that guy is...

i

[Doug Kanter]

Post by Ignoramus1487

Post by Doug Kanter

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:14 GMT, Doug Kanter

Post by Doug Kanter
For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand the
rules?

First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
exploring or imitating adults.
For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
a glass.
Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.
Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
that they deserve.
The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.
The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
what's not allowed.

The tantrum thing is interesting. My ex-wife, a speech pathologist, has to
deal with little kids all day long. Her technique for tantrums worked
nicely: Quickly determine if there's a good reason for it (fatigue, problem
with sibling, etc). Usually, there's not. So, handle the kid as you would if
he were having a seizure. Put him somewhere safe and let the tantrum run its
course.
Later, she came across a fascinating article which suggested (per research)
that tantrums occur to some extent in all kids because a certain part of the
brain has not yet developed. Made sense.

Interesting. I know some adults whose brains did not develop the
anti-tantrum centers...

Post by Doug Kanter

Besides the fact that most instances of misbehavior are properly
addresses by looking at their causes, punishment is a valid concept
and is not reducable to spanking only.
There are numerous punishments that do not involve violence.
I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.

I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

What a dumbass that guy is...

Yeah. I showed my son how to do it when he was 10. He said "OK. Like this?".
Then I called him a cool guy, and he's permanently damaged because of it.

[w***@little.com]

Post by Doug Kanter
I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

And you never said a thing? At the very least I would have been
knocking on the door of the school counselor.
I had a neighbor who was in the habit of kicking his dogs, I called
the cops.He stopped. I would do the same for a child. I had a neighbor
who left her 8 year old home alone, I called the cops. She came
pounding on my door threatening to have me taken care of. Oh well.If I
thought there was abuse of any kind I would report it to someone. You
call the cops a few times when he is screaming and he would start
thinking. Cops don't like parents who abuse their children, neither do
I.

Peace to you, Dave

[Doug Kanter]

Post by w***@little.com

Post by Doug Kanter
I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

And you never said a thing? At the very least I would have been
knocking on the door of the school counselor.
I had a neighbor who was in the habit of kicking his dogs, I called
the cops.He stopped. I would do the same for a child. I had a neighbor
who left her 8 year old home alone, I called the cops. She came
pounding on my door threatening to have me taken care of. Oh well.If I
thought there was abuse of any kind I would report it to someone. You
call the cops a few times when he is screaming and he would start
thinking. Cops don't like parents who abuse their children, neither do
I.
Peace to you, Dave

Believe me, it was taken care of. But, it had been going on for years before
we moved to the street. The damage was done. The kids are 18-22 now, and in
therapy. The oldest has her own kids. Guess how she behaves toward them. The
exact same way.

[Ignoramus1487]

What is wrong about leaving a 8 year old child home alone, provided
that the child is reasonably responsible.

i

[Doug Kanter]

Post by Ignoramus1487
What is wrong about leaving a 8 year old child home alone, provided
that the child is reasonably responsible.
i

Do you have kids?

[Ignoramus1487]

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by Ignoramus1487
What is wrong about leaving a 8 year old child home alone, provided
that the child is reasonably responsible.
i

Do you have kids?

Yes, one. 4.5 yo.

i

[Doug Kanter]

Post by Ignoramus1487

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by Ignoramus1487
What is wrong about leaving a 8 year old child home alone, provided
that the child is reasonably responsible.
i

Do you have kids?

Yes, one. 4.5 yo.
i

Good. I assume you have the usual parental nightmares about what could
happen to a kid in a normal, well-maintained house, regardless of how
careful you are. Start writing them down. You'll have your answer.

[Ignoramus1487]

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by Ignoramus1487

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by Ignoramus1487
What is wrong about leaving a 8 year old child home alone, provided
that the child is reasonably responsible.
i

Do you have kids?

Yes, one. 4.5 yo.
i

Good. I assume you have the usual parental nightmares about what could
happen to a kid in a normal, well-maintained house, regardless of how
careful you are. Start writing them down. You'll have your answer.

The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.

The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

i

[w***@little.com]

Post by Ignoramus1487
The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.
The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.

[Ignoramus1487]

Post by w***@little.com

Post by Ignoramus1487
The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.
The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.

No, I am not joking.

i
--

[SteveB]

Post by Ignoramus1487

Post by w***@little.com

Post by Ignoramus1487
The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.
The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.

No, I am not joking.
i
--

Hell, I used to get out my dad's mercury and play with it. He had about
four fluid ounces.

Nothing bad happened, luckily
luckily
luckily
luckily
(slap!)

sorry

Steve, and it is a true story.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by w***@little.com

Post by Ignoramus1487
The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.
The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.

When I was 11 I'd buy KNO3 and sulfer by the lb from the local
druggist. In those days, the pharmacist had barrels of
each in the basement. Add a little charcoal, voila!

Got my first rifle about then too.

Times sure have changed.

[Ignoramus1487]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by w***@little.com

Post by Ignoramus1487
The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.
The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.

When I was 11 I'd buy KNO3 and sulfer by the lb from the local
druggist. In those days, the pharmacist had barrels of
each in the basement. Add a little charcoal, voila!

You can still buy that stuff by the pound.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Potassium-Nitrate-saltpeter-4-4lbs-HighGrade-ExFine_W0QQitemZ6010421810

http://cgi.ebay.com/SULFUR-Powder-aka-Flowers-of-Sulfur-1-lb-Sulphur_W0QQitemZ5631859749


i

Post by Scott Lurndal
Got my first rifle about then too.
Times sure have changed.

--

[Larry Jaques]

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:15:19 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by w***@little.com

Post by Ignoramus1487
The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.
The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.

(Why would you think he was joking, wood?)

Post by Scott Lurndal
When I was 11 I'd buy KNO3 and sulfer by the lb from the local
druggist. In those days, the pharmacist had barrels of
each in the basement. Add a little charcoal, voila!
Got my first rifle about then too.

Ditto here, but I think my grandfather's Winchester 22 was given
to me a bit earler than that. (9 rings a bell)

Post by Scott Lurndal
Times sure have changed.

Haven't they, though? Kids nowadays have weekly allowances higher than
I took a year to earn, and that with nearly NO responsibilities. Given
the rate of social and moral decay, we may all be offed (by the kids)
the second our bods hit the hospital. =:-0


--------------------------------------------------------------------
I sent in my $5, so * http://www.diversify.com/stees.html
why haven't I been 'saved'? * Graphic Design - Humorous T-shirts

[w***@little.com]

Post by Doug Kanter
Believe me, it was taken care of. But, it had been going on for years before
we moved to the street. The damage was done. The kids are 18-22 now, and in
therapy. The oldest has her own kids. Guess how she behaves toward them. The
exact same way.

Doug, when I was kid, there was a boy down the street whose dad was a
drunk. Every time he would put one on he would come home and beat that
kid bloody. I mean bad. He used belts, boards, whatever was handy.
This was in the late 50's and the police would do nothing. I wonder
what happened to him. That image has stuck with me all these years.
It was ugly.
That more then my parents example (it was good) influenced how I
disciplined my kids.I tried to always put their welfare first and
never let anger motivate my discipline.

[John Husvar]

Post by w***@little.com

Post by Doug Kanter
Believe me, it was taken care of. But, it had been going on for years before
we moved to the street. The damage was done. The kids are 18-22 now, and in
therapy. The oldest has her own kids. Guess how she behaves toward them. The
exact same way.

Doug, when I was kid, there was a boy down the street whose dad was a
drunk. Every time he would put one on he would come home and beat that
kid bloody. I mean bad. He used belts, boards, whatever was handy.
This was in the late 50's and the police would do nothing. I wonder
what happened to him. That image has stuck with me all these years.
It was ugly.

<snip>

I think I've told this story on the group before, but what the heck?

I was still in grade 6 or 7, living in a little area south of Pottery
Addition near Steubenville, OH.

One night somebody knocked at our door. There was a hushed conversation
at the door and my mother told me to go upstairs to my room. Being the
typically -- or maybe more than typically -- curious teenager, I of
course listened in on things via the heating ducts.

It turned out a neighbor girl of about 18 or so thought she had killed
her father. He'd trapped her by pushing their kitchen table into her,
catching her between the table and sink cabinet. She managed to get a
knife out of a drawer and thrust it at him across the table. He
collapsed and she ran out aimlessly in a panic, finally coming to our
door, maybe because she had done some babysitting for me and my sister
and thought my folks could help her.

I remember vividly her saying how she couldn't stand him forcing her to
his bed any longer and that she just grabbed the first weapon that came
to hand she could fend him off with. She said she didn't mean to hurt
him more than enough to get him away from her, but she didn't know how
badly he was hurt.

My folks called the sheriffs, who took the girl to their office after
checking her house and finding her father dead in the kitchen, lying on
the floor with about four inches of a big chef's knife in his chest. The
knife went far enough in to hit his heart. They said later that it
lookedlike he had more fallen across the table lunging for the girl and
fell on the knife more than she had thrust it into him. That may have
been just to spare her any more trauma. Who knows?

The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.

Turned out the Sheriff and Humane Officer had been watching the family
for some time, but had too little evidence to bring Child Welfare into
the situation or make an arrest themselves. They'd had reports and
rumors about how the old man was treating his family, but nothing solid
to take to court.

What really ticked me off, even that young, was some people in the
neighborhood considering her somehow defiled by having been repeatedly
raped by her drunken bastard of a father!

They soon moved away and I hoped the girl recovered as much as possible
and got a decent chance at life somewhere.

[Chuck Sherwood]

Post by John Husvar
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.

The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

chuck

[Jeff McCann]

Post by Chuck Sherwood

Post by John Husvar
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.

The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

Jeff

[Ignoramus1487]

Post by Jeff McCann

Post by Chuck Sherwood

Post by John Husvar
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.

The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

That probably was before laws about child abuse/neglect took present
shape.

i

[John Husvar]

Post by Ignoramus1487

Post by Jeff McCann

Post by Chuck Sherwood

Post by John Husvar
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.

The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

That probably was before laws about child abuse/neglect took present
shape.
i

There was very little in the way of child abuse/neglect protection when
and where I grew up. Laws existed, but were often laxly enforced.

Hell, when my parents were trying to get a commission-paid trucking
terminal off the ground, I practically raised my sister. We were ten
years apart. My mother could check in several times a day because they
built the first office in the garage beside the house, but my baby
sister was my responsibility between times. (They did make sure I got
some breaks to go out and just be a kid.)

Nowadays, that would be child neglect, I suppose. It didn't hurt me
overmuch and my sister and I are very close ~40 years later. There
wasn't much resentment. We just did what had to be done to get out of
poverty after my dad got hurt and couldn't drive his truck any longer.

Must have worked. After a few years all the back bills were paid, we
owned our own house, and my dad's cars were Cadillacs when Cadillac was
still a respected make. :)

[Ignoramus1487]

Post by John Husvar
Hell, when my parents were trying to get a commission-paid trucking
terminal off the ground, I practically raised my sister. We were ten
years apart. My mother could check in several times a day because they
built the first office in the garage beside the house, but my baby
sister was my responsibility between times. (They did make sure I got
some breaks to go out and just be a kid.)
Nowadays, that would be child neglect, I suppose.

It would not be, I suppose, if you were a responsible young individual
above age when babysitting is allowed.

i

Post by John Husvar
It didn't hurt me
overmuch and my sister and I are very close ~40 years later. There
wasn't much resentment. We just did what had to be done to get out of
poverty after my dad got hurt and couldn't drive his truck any longer.
Must have worked. After a few years all the back bills were paid, we
owned our own house, and my dad's cars were Cadillacs when Cadillac was
still a respected make. :)

--

[Jeff McCann]

Post by Ignoramus1487

Post by Jeff McCann

Post by Chuck Sherwood

Post by John Husvar
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.

The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

That probably was before laws about child abuse/neglect took present
shape.

Laws against rape and accessory to rape have been around for hundreds of
years, dating at least from English Common Law.

Jeff

[John Husvar]

Post by Jeff McCann

Post by Chuck Sherwood

Post by John Husvar
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.

The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.
Jeff

Sheesh, how would I know? I was 13-14? It was (good/bad) luck and
teenage busybodyism I found out as much as I did. :)

(Pure speculation below)

Maybe the mother was beaten and browbeaten into outright submission.
Things were much different in the late 50s/early 60s in Steubenville.
There wasn't much "interference" with family doings in those days in
that place unless something like that happened. Even the police didn't
do much about domestic violence except maybe hit 'em with Disturbing the
Peace or somesuch.

Failed to take the steps? Certainly. But was she even psychologically
able to take the steps, given the near total domination her husband
exercised? Many women who were married in the 30s/40s were raised with
an attitude that the man of the house could do no wrong. He was
virtually a god in some societies. They didn't even have a phone and she
might have been terrified to leave the house without permission.

If the kids talked, they might have paid dearly for it. Father knows
best wasn't a Robert Young TV show to some older generation families.

I don't want to get into a pissing match here, but that kind of attitude
prevailed far longer than we in this time might think possible.

[Jeff McCann]

Post by John Husvar

Post by Jeff McCann

Post by Chuck Sherwood

Post by John Husvar
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.

The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.
Jeff

Sheesh, how would I know? I was 13-14? It was (good/bad) luck and
teenage busybodyism I found out as much as I did. :)

Got it. I meant the question to be rhetorical. Sorry.

Post by John Husvar
(Pure speculation below)
Maybe the mother was beaten and browbeaten into outright submission.
Things were much different in the late 50s/early 60s in Steubenville.
There wasn't much "interference" with family doings in those days in
that place unless something like that happened. Even the police didn't
do much about domestic violence except maybe hit 'em with Disturbing the
Peace or somesuch.
Failed to take the steps? Certainly. But was she even psychologically
able to take the steps, given the near total domination her husband
exercised? Many women who were married in the 30s/40s were raised with
an attitude that the man of the house could do no wrong. He was
virtually a god in some societies. They didn't even have a phone and she
might have been terrified to leave the house without permission.
If the kids talked, they might have paid dearly for it. Father knows
best wasn't a Robert Young TV show to some older generation families.
I don't want to get into a pissing match here, but that kind of attitude
prevailed far longer than we in this time might think possible.

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. But in this more
"enlightened" era, we complain a lot about irresponsible kids.
Personally, I think that the root problem is irresponsible parents. So
I draw a pretty hard line when parents allow or cause their children to
come to harm, or cause harm to others, as a result of parental
negligence. That's not to say that I have no sympathy for battered
spouses, especially in a time before recent societal changes in
perspective, but letting your teenage daughter be repeatedly raped is
just beyond the pale, and should not be tolerated in a decent society.
Nor should we tolerate spousal abuse, but at least the abused spouse is,
presumably, an adult.

Jeff

[Stuart Grey]

When a child misbehaves, stick him in the corner.

Minor offense, he can sit facing outward.
Moderate offense, he stands with his nose in the corner.
Serious offense, he kneels with nose in the corner.

Only spanking offense: Leaving the corner when put in it for punishment.

How to administer spankings: 1) Never spank when your pissed. 2) Put a
lot of drama into it, use fear and expectation more than pain. 3) Use a
softly rolled up newspaper, as it makes a lot of noise and doesn't sting
as much. The noise and the expectation of do the work for you. 4) The
newspaper trick almost always work. If not, then you have to escalate to
the bare hand. Never use belts, hotwheel tracks or such, as you can't
feel what your doing.

With any luck, after one or two spankings, you'll never have to do it
again and you can always use the corner. Of course, genetics give people
different dispositions. This technique may or may not work in your family.

[Harold and Susan Vordos]

Post by Kenneth
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"

Post by Swingman
"Dave Jackson" wrote in message

Post by Dave Jackson
I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them

more

Post by Dave Jackson
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to

paddling.

Post by Dave Jackson
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT

tell

Post by Dave Jackson
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a

polite

Post by Dave Jackson
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave

Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and uncommon
sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the immediate
consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.
You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what it
is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.
All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his belt
buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...
All the best,
--
Kenneth

Do you have any questions why so many of the children of today have no
manners? I know I don't have. (Questions, that is.)

No one suggested you have to beat a kid senseless. A couple slaps on the
ass does a world of good for kids that act up and won't listen to reason.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm up to my ears with kids that
mule and puke when in public, showing no respect for person or property.
Where the hell do you think that starts? Permissive parents that have
little to no interest in rearing children, permitting any kind of activity,
in fear they might screw up the kid's mind if he/she had to learn something
in the way of obedience and manners.

I'd suggest to you the parents of such children reap their reward when the
kids grow up and show their contempt for society, including their parents.
Why not? What were they taught?

Harold (who's all for a good spanking when it's warranted)

[Alex]

Harold,

what if you spanked a kid and he/she starts to behave even worse?
Never thought of that, ah?
You are a lucky parent if spanking works for your kid. Spanking DOESN'T WORK FOR ALL
kids. I suggest that you you listen to professionals and try to follow what they
recommend. If professional tells you not to spank then don't spank. Imagine a
psychologist coming up with "new" ways to machine steel or heat treat metal? Sounds
stupid, right? Do not try to invent something new in parenting or children psychology.
Your parenting baggage is full of stale myths.
As for kids around you that that misbehave...
here is bogus Socrat quote:
children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble
their food, and tyrannize their teachers.

"In fact no Greek writer or philosopher would denigrate the youth of his time
in such a manner; they were seen as the future and the hope of
civilization - an attitude perhaps we might adopt instead of today's
all too frequent and largely unfounded negativism."

Post by Dave Jackson

Post by Kenneth
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"

Post by Swingman
"Dave Jackson" wrote in message

Post by Dave Jackson
I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the

threat

Post by Kenneth

Post by Swingman

Post by Dave Jackson
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there

are

Post by Kenneth

Post by Swingman

Post by Dave Jackson
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them

more

Post by Dave Jackson
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and

never

Post by Kenneth

Post by Swingman

Post by Dave Jackson
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids

the

Post by Kenneth

Post by Swingman

Post by Dave Jackson
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it

and

Post by Kenneth

Post by Swingman

Post by Dave Jackson
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business

and

Post by Kenneth

Post by Swingman

Post by Dave Jackson
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to

paddling.

Post by Dave Jackson
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT

tell

Post by Dave Jackson
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a

polite

Post by Dave Jackson
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave

Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and

uncommon

Post by Kenneth

Post by Swingman
sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the

immediate

Post by Kenneth

Post by Swingman
consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.
You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what

it

Post by Kenneth

Post by Swingman
is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.
All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his

belt

Post by Kenneth

Post by Swingman
buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...
All the best,
--
Kenneth

Do you have any questions why so many of the children of today have no
manners? I know I don't have. (Questions, that is.)
No one suggested you have to beat a kid senseless. A couple slaps on the
ass does a world of good for kids that act up and won't listen to reason.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm up to my ears with kids that
mule and puke when in public, showing no respect for person or property.
Where the hell do you think that starts? Permissive parents that have
little to no interest in rearing children, permitting any kind of activity,
in fear they might screw up the kid's mind if he/she had to learn something
in the way of obedience and manners.
I'd suggest to you the parents of such children reap their reward when the
kids grow up and show their contempt for society, including their parents.
Why not? What were they taught?
Harold (who's all for a good spanking when it's warranted)

[Dave Lyon]

Post by Alex
Harold,
what if you spanked a kid and he/she starts to behave even worse?
Never thought of that, ah?
You are a lucky parent if spanking works for your kid. Spanking DOESN'T WORK FOR ALL

True, spanking doesn't work for all, but it does for MOST.

Post by Alex
kids. I suggest that you you listen to professionals and try to follow what they
recommend. If professional tells you not to spank then don't spank.

I suggest you listen to professionals that have raised good kids. Or, anyone
that has raised good kids.

BTW, I strongly recommend the book "Dare to Discipline" by Dr. Dobson.

[Alex]

I second that "Dare to Discipline" by Dr. Dobson is good book.

Listening to anyone that has raised good kids is good but professionals
have accumulated knowledge of miliions of different cases and can give
you better advise.

Please also don't forget about cases when children in some absolutly
disfunctional families grew up to become great people. On the other
hand there are some terrible adults grew up in families with good
caring parents.
I don't want to sound to pessimistic but sometime times it's just not
up to us or anyone else to change some children behavior. The best
example of that is when in the same family you have one perfectly
behaving kid and one . Same parents, same enviroment, same evething and
completely different outcome.
Reading books on parenting, trying not to hurt your kid no matter how
angry you are and searching for professinal help if needed is in my
opinion the best strategy.

[Ignoramus1487]

Post by Alex
I second that "Dare to Discipline" by Dr. Dobson is good book.
Listening to anyone that has raised good kids is good but professionals
have accumulated knowledge of miliions of different cases and can give
you better advise.

Except that different professionals give differing advice.

Post by Alex
Please also don't forget about cases when children in some absolutly
disfunctional families grew up to become great people. On the other
hand there are some terrible adults grew up in families with good
caring parents.
I don't want to sound to pessimistic but sometime times it's just not
up to us or anyone else to change some children behavior. The best
example of that is when in the same family you have one perfectly
behaving kid and one . Same parents, same enviroment, same evething and
completely different outcome.

That's quite wisely stated.

Post by Alex
Reading books on parenting, trying not to hurt your kid no matter how
angry you are and searching for professinal help if needed is in my
opinion the best strategy.

And that, again, is quite wisely said.

i

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:42:10 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,

Post by Harold and Susan Vordos

Post by Kenneth
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...

Do you have any questions why so many of the children of today have no
manners? I know I don't have. (Questions, that is.)

Nor do I. I grew up next to a spankless family. The little boy was
so bad/acted up so loudly that Mom and Dad wouldn't allow him in our
house. They were friends with the parents, not the kids. Becky was my
age (teen at the time) and I believe was raised with spanking, but the
parents didn't spank Andrew, their son. I saw the window glass guys
coming often, so the kid (age 7 then) must have been throwing stuff
through them as well as screaming and pounding his fists and feet on
the floor. Nobody in the neighborhood had anything to do with Andrew,
and when I heard of Hurricane Andrew, I immediately thought of him.
Yeah, you can keep your kids raised without spanking, thanks.

Post by Harold and Susan Vordos
No one suggested you have to beat a kid senseless. A couple slaps on the
ass does a world of good for kids that act up and won't listen to reason.

Right, no beating, just a proper hand to keep them in line. There's
"the look", "the whispered verbal warning", "the loud verbal warning"
and "the spanking hand", in that order. Kids raised without it turn
into criminals who think they can get away with anything, just as they
always have.

Post by Harold and Susan Vordos
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm up to my ears with kids that
mule and puke when in public, showing no respect for person or property.
Where the hell do you think that starts? Permissive parents that have
little to no interest in rearing children, permitting any kind of activity,
in fear they might screw up the kid's mind if he/she had to learn something
in the way of obedience and manners.

Ditto that in SPADES!

Post by Harold and Susan Vordos
I'd suggest to you the parents of such children reap their reward when the
kids grow up and show their contempt for society, including their parents.
Why not? What were they taught?

Karma is karma. Ouch! (That's gonna hurt, Ken.)

Post by Harold and Susan Vordos
Harold (who's all for a good spanking when it's warranted)

AFAIC, it's part of proper parenting. NO beating, belts, or canes.
But a hand (or thin switch) once or twice will do wonders. My most
memorable spanking was from Dad, when he asked me to go cut my own
switch. My friend and I had crossed under the fence at the edge of
the Air Base and were beyond the highway with our slingshots. My good
old friend sent a marble up in the air in an arc trying to hit a car
going 65 mph. He got the windshield but luckily, nobody got hurt.

He saw it coming and ran, I got caught first, and we both got hauled
up to the Air Police at the gate. I was later "saved" by Jeff's
admission of guilt, but we both embarrassed our fathers. I've been in
only one fight in my life and it was with Jeff the following year.
True to the morals lacking in that family, his brothers joined in
against me, (kneeling behind me so he could push me over them, etc.),
but I still won the fight.

I learned several great lessons from that episode of switch cutting
and I haven't made any more "friends" like Jeff since.

end note:
I wonder if security at Little Rock AFB ever got any better. We
traveled through OPEN 4' diameter concrete flood pipes to get off the
base for "hunting" in the forest beyond. There were simple 8' chain
link fences around the Base, rimmed with 3 layers of barbed wire, but
the flood control was wide open.

[Dave Lyon]

Post by Harold and Susan Vordos
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm up to my ears with kids that
mule and puke when in public, showing no respect for person or property.
Where the hell do you think that starts? Permissive parents that have
little to no interest in rearing children, permitting any kind of activity,
in fear they might screw up the kid's mind if he/she had to learn something
in the way of obedience and manners.

I think most parents love their children and want the best for them. In my
opinion there are 2 basic reasons that a parent does not discipline their
children. The first is that they were probably never taught how to raise
children from their parents. Many of my parenting skills were "caught" from
my parents. Those people that didn't have the benefit of learning from good
parents have their work cut out for them. The 2nd is our nations growing
tendency to be lazy. Good parenting is lots of hard work. Often otherwise
loving parents give up when they've had a hard day and they have to get up
from the couch once again to discipline junior for the 5th time that
evening.

I hate it when I see a child like you're referring to in the store. It makes
me want to walk over to the kid and give him a good swat, then smack the
parent for allowing it. It's not the kids fault for being a turd. It's the
parents.

[Swingman]

"Kenneth" wrote in message

Post by Kenneth
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.

[Kenneth]

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:10:52 -0600, "Swingman"

Post by Swingman
"Kenneth" wrote in message

Post by Kenneth
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.

Hello again,

Your comment reveals the problem so very clearly that I
thought to respond:

We agree that disciplining children is extremely important
to their well being.

But you clearly equate "hitting" and "discipline."

All the best,

[Swingman]

"Kenneth" wrote in message

Post by Kenneth
But you clearly equate "hitting" and "discipline."

You're right again. As an attention getter, you bet I do ... when it is
timely and appropriate.

Just don't you equate "hitting" with physical harm.

AAMOF, let me know if you're ever interested in putting your money where
your mouth is on that count.

A little scientific experiment, based on whether smacking the crap out of
someone for each smug attempt to spin words and meaning would stop the
behavior, would be highly pertinent to the discussion and provide some
insight you're missing.

[Tamper proof]

I'm glad I can hide behind a computer and act a badass!

We're just glad you're behind the computer and not in public anywhere.

[Dave Lyon]

Post by Swingman
"Kenneth" wrote in message

Post by Kenneth
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05

As long as he's acting in my best interest, and making sure I know why I'm
being punished, I'm not afraid of that 1000 lb gorilla. You can be he
wouldn't have to tell me something twice.

[Tamper proof]

Post by Swingman
"Kenneth" wrote in message

Post by Kenneth
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.
Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.

Are you stupid or something? Are you related to Forrest Gump?

[Ignoramus14135]

Post by Swingman
"Dave Jackson" wrote in message

Post by Dave Jackson
I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them

more

Post by Dave Jackson
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to

paddling.

Post by Dave Jackson
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT

tell

Post by Dave Jackson
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a

polite

Post by Dave Jackson
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave

Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and uncommon
sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the immediate
consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.
You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what it
is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.
All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his belt
buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.

Children are not dogs.

Also, rewards and punishment do not require violence to be used
against children.

i

[Harold and Susan Vordos]

Post by Dave Jackson
Amen, Jeff
I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them more
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to paddling.
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT tell
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a polite
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave

As it should be! Congrats on using good judgment.

Harold

[Too_Many_Tools]

I know it is off topic...and that is why it is marked OT.

I posted it to the groups I did because, believe it or not, many of
those who haunt these groups actually have opinions I respect. ;<)

I would tend to agree with another poster...one size doesn't fit all
when it comes to applying discipline to kids.


TMT

[Dave Lyon]

OK, I haven't been fished lately.


After having 4 kids, I think I've learned a little about discipline. My
first two received spankings as needed. They are very well adjusted, good
kids (13 and 15 years old). My third child did not respond to spanking at
all. In fact, I'm at wits end trying to come up with a suitable punishment
for her (9 years old). I believe that I'm starting to learn that she
responds much better to positive reinforcement. My forth child has nearly
never been spanked. Usually a stern lecture is all he needs (6 years old).

Here's what I've learned about child discipline. The first thing to learn is
all kids are different. Sending my 6 year old to his room is a much better
punishment than sending my 15 year old to hers. While I believe that
spanking is an appropriate tool to use, it is not a cure all. Each child
should have discipline tailored to their personalities.
The most important thing that I've learned is that consistency is the key.
If you say a child will be punished for a particular action, make sure they
are punished for that action every time. Multiple warnings are not being
kind to your children, they are confusing to them.


When we had our first child EVERYBODY was giving us advice on the proper way
to raise them. Often that advice contradicted what somebody else said. We
nearly went crazy trying to figure out who to listen to until we came up
with this simple formula.
1) If the advice giver doesn't have children, throw out their advice
regardless of how much education they have.
2) If they have kids, but you don't like the way their children behave,
throw out their advice too.
3) If they have kids, their kids are well behaved, but not fully grown,
consider what they have to say.
4) If they have grown children, and you respect those children, don't wait
for advice, seek it out from those people.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-

Post by Too_Many_Tools
Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."
Whether parents should spank their children or use other forms of
physical discipline is controversial. Some experts argue that children
should not be spanked when they act out citing evidence that it leads
to more, rather than fewer, behavior problems and it could escalate
into physical abuse. There are data to support this argument.
Other experts, however, argue that the effects of spanking and physical
discipline might depend on the characteristics of the child and family
and the circumstances in which it is used.
To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.
Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey. She told
Reuters Health that "across the six countries studied, children who
were physically disciplined more frequently were more aggressive and
anxious than were children who were physically disciplined less
frequently."
"However, in countries where the use of physical discipline was more
common, being physically disciplined more frequently was not related as
strongly to aggression and anxiety as it was in countries where
physical discipline was less frequently used," she said.
Not surprisingly, in Thailand, a country where peace-promoting Buddhist
teachings predominant, moms were least likely to spank their children
or use other forms of physical discipline.
In Kenya, on the other hand, where use of physical discipline is common
and considered normal for the most part, moms were most likely to spank
or engage in similar disciplinary tactics. In a study conducted in
Kenya in 2003, 57 percent of grandmothers reported caning, pinching,
slapping, tying with a rope, hitting, beating, and kicking as forms of
discipline they had used on their grandchildren.
One question the findings raise, according to Lansford, is whether
being physically disciplined more frequently causes an increase in
aggression and anxiety or whether children who are already aggressive
and anxious are simply physically disciplined more often. "On the basis
of other work conducted in the United States, the answer is probably
some of each," Lansford said.
"Another question is whether physical discipline is appropriate in this
day and age, regardless of how accepted it may be," she added.
SOURCE: Child Development, November/December 2005

[Too_Many_Tools]

"until we came up with this simple formula.
1) If the advice giver doesn't have children, throw out their advice
regardless of how much education they have.
2) If they have kids, but you don't like the way their children behave,

throw out their advice too.
3) If they have kids, their kids are well behaved, but not fully grown,

consider what they have to say.
4) If they have grown children, and you respect those children, don't
wait
for advice, seek it out from those people. "

Good approach....

TMT

[Deborah Kelly]

Good advice with that formula....I hate it when people who don't have kids
tell me how I should raise mine....lol

as for spanking when they do something really bad yes they do get spanked
and we explain to them why we are spanking them....most the time they get
sent to their room though....

My siblings and I did have physical disciplene growing up and we are not
really agressive or anxious. A study like that can not show conclusive
results because it is based on what people say and people do lie and 'more
frequently' and 'less frequently' are very subjective terms and vary widely
in interpatation.

Deborah

Post by Dave Lyon
OK, I haven't been fished lately.
After having 4 kids, I think I've learned a little about discipline. My
first two received spankings as needed. They are very well adjusted, good
kids (13 and 15 years old). My third child did not respond to spanking at
all. In fact, I'm at wits end trying to come up with a suitable punishment
for her (9 years old). I believe that I'm starting to learn that she
responds much better to positive reinforcement. My forth child has nearly
never been spanked. Usually a stern lecture is all he needs (6 years old).
Here's what I've learned about child discipline. The first thing to learn is
all kids are different. Sending my 6 year old to his room is a much better
punishment than sending my 15 year old to hers. While I believe that
spanking is an appropriate tool to use, it is not a cure all. Each child
should have discipline tailored to their personalities.
The most important thing that I've learned is that consistency is the key.
If you say a child will be punished for a particular action, make sure they
are punished for that action every time. Multiple warnings are not being
kind to your children, they are confusing to them.
When we had our first child EVERYBODY was giving us advice on the proper way
to raise them. Often that advice contradicted what somebody else said. We
nearly went crazy trying to figure out who to listen to until we came up
with this simple formula.
1) If the advice giver doesn't have children, throw out their advice
regardless of how much education they have.
2) If they have kids, but you don't like the way their children behave,
throw out their advice too.
3) If they have kids, their kids are well behaved, but not fully grown,
consider what they have to say.
4) If they have grown children, and you respect those children, don't wait
for advice, seek it out from those people.

[Alex]

Dave,

you kids are lucky to have such parents!
Everyone one participating in this thread must read it before posting
thier opinion on spanking.

[Dave Lyon]

Post by Alex
Dave,
you kids are lucky to have such parents!

Thanks. I hope you're right. The bad part about parenting is that you really
don't know how good you've done until your kids are grown!

[w***@little.com]

Post by Dave Lyon
Here's what I've learned about child discipline. The first thing to learn is
all kids are different. Sending my 6 year old to his room is a much better
punishment than sending my 15 year old to hers. While I believe that
spanking is an appropriate tool to use, it is not a cure all. Each child
should have discipline tailored to their personalities.

Dave,I consider this to be the single most important statement made in
this thread. My one son was never spanked, he had such a developed
sense of empathy and had a very hard time dealing with anyone he felt
was being treated unfairly. We could "talk to him". Its funny, we
thought he would grow up to be a minister. He joined the Marines.

Dave, peace to you.

[Proctologically Violated©®]

Are we talking "regular" kids, or kids that wind up turning out like Harold?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
TMT
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."
Whether parents should spank their children or use other forms of
physical discipline is controversial. Some experts argue that children
should not be spanked when they act out citing evidence that it leads
to more, rather than fewer, behavior problems and it could escalate
into physical abuse. There are data to support this argument.
Other experts, however, argue that the effects of spanking and physical
discipline might depend on the characteristics of the child and family
and the circumstances in which it is used.
To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.
Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey. She told
Reuters Health that "across the six countries studied, children who
were physically disciplined more frequently were more aggressive and
anxious than were children who were physically disciplined less
frequently."
"However, in countries where the use of physical discipline was more
common, being physically disciplined more frequently was not related as
strongly to aggression and anxiety as it was in countries where
physical discipline was less frequently used," she said.
Not surprisingly, in Thailand, a country where peace-promoting Buddhist
teachings predominant, moms were least likely to spank their children
or use other forms of physical discipline.
In Kenya, on the other hand, where use of physical discipline is common
and considered normal for the most part, moms were most likely to spank
or engage in similar disciplinary tactics. In a study conducted in
Kenya in 2003, 57 percent of grandmothers reported caning, pinching,
slapping, tying with a rope, hitting, beating, and kicking as forms of
discipline they had used on their grandchildren.
One question the findings raise, according to Lansford, is whether
being physically disciplined more frequently causes an increase in
aggression and anxiety or whether children who are already aggressive
and anxious are simply physically disciplined more often. "On the basis
of other work conducted in the United States, the answer is probably
some of each," Lansford said.
"Another question is whether physical discipline is appropriate in this
day and age, regardless of how accepted it may be," she added.
SOURCE: Child Development, November/December 2005

[jim rozen]

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Are we talking "regular" kids, or kids that wind up turning out like Harold?

Well that was gratuitous. He hasn't even commented on this
thread. Plonk

[Proctologically Violated©®]

Mebbe *for*tuitous.
He's responded at least twice, so far, and w/o a doubt w/ many more to
come--thoroughly convicted, absolute, and righteous, as well.
Don't tell me *you too* are becoming a pill??
Metal dust?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Post by jim rozen

Post by Proctologically Violated©®
Are we talking "regular" kids, or kids that wind up turning out like Harold?

Well that was gratuitous. He hasn't even commented on this
thread. Plonk
--
==================================================
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

[Jerry Foster]

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-

Post by Too_Many_Tools
Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

<snip>

Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.

When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Jerry

[Jon Danniken]

Post by Jerry Foster
Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.
When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

When I got spanked as a child, it wasn't the physical pain that hurt, it was
knowing that I messed up badly enough to warrant getting turned up over the
knee that hurt. The knowing that I had stepped so far out of the bounds of
behavior that I was upside down being hit on the ass is a powerful thing,
and it is that knowing that some children need to experience, if only a few
times.

Consider it the "instant karma" approach. When it is necessary, it should
be used, and not disregarded as cruel.

Jon

[d***@bellsouth.net]

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-

Post by Too_Many_Tools
Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

<snip>
Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.
When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Most crimes have always been committed by males between 15 and 35. Our
declining crime rate merely reflects our changing demographics.
Child-rearing norms and the posturing of politicians has little or
nothing to do with it. I have some family members who spanked their
kids, and others who didn't. But all were loving, responsible, mature,
well-educated parents, and their kids all turned out just fine.

Jeff

[d***@bellsouth.net]

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-

Post by Too_Many_Tools
Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

<snip>
Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.
When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Most crimes have always been committed by males between 15 and 35. Our
declining crime rate merely reflects our changing demographics.
Child-rearing norms and the posturing of politicians has little or
nothing to do with it. I have some family members who spanked their
kids, and others who didn't. But all were loving, responsible, mature,
well-educated parents, and their kids all turned out just fine.

Jeff

[d***@bellsouth.net]

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-

Post by Too_Many_Tools
Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

<snip>
Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.
When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Most crimes have always been committed by males between 15 and 35. Our
declining crime rate merely reflects our changing demographics.
Child-rearing norms and the posturing of politicians has little or
nothing to do with it. I have some family members who spanked their
kids, and others who didn't. But all were loving, responsible, mature,
well-educated parents, and their kids all turned out just fine.

Jeff

[Alex]

Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Alex
Jerry,
crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)

Fairly reliable research has identified Roe v. Wade as a large
contributor to the decrease in the crime rate over the last
15 years or so.

<http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/1/abramsky-s.html>

[Jerry Foster]

Post by Alex
Jerry,
crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)

I agree that a number of factors are involved. And I didn't state that
there was a direct cause-effect. I simply said, "you have to wonder."

BUT, in the State of California (just as a simple example), the population
of the state approximately doubled from 1960 to 2000 (rough figures, about
15,000,000 to about 30,000,000). Meanwhile, the total number of inmates in
California prisons increased nearly ten-fold (again, rough figures, about
18,000 to about 160,000).

My point is that you can't exclude factors just because they don't match
your philosophy/politics.

Jerry

[Tamper proof]

Post by Too_Many_Tools
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."

I've seen just exactly the opposite with children who *do not* get spanked,
but instead get some stupid whiny sounding, petite, soft-spoken and gentle
'talking to'. Said children have already become nuisances to the parent(s),
the school(s), the neighborhood, and is/are bullies, not liked well by others
the same age. One of the little shits in question is my nephew. His mother
has never laid a hand on him and he runs her life almost literally and does
what he wants to when he wants to...all starting at about 8 years old and is
now 14 or 15 (I don't give a fuck about the little shit, nor does anyone else
in the family after all the crap he's pulled over the years and his mother
snubbing her nose at *US* for trying to discipline him when we were
unfortunate enough to have had to babysit the little fucker). Dad and I have
a running bet on the age he'll be when he first gets thrown in jail.

[Alex]

There is a chance that your nephew has a chronic adjustment disorder.
Symptoms includes depression(very common) and in some cases conduct disturbances(less
common)
Here is a link to description in plain English:
http://www.athealth.com/Consumer/disorders/Adjustment.html

Most people recover completely from adjustment disorders, especially if they had no
previous history of mental problems, and have a stable home life with strong social
support. Recommend forms of psychosocial treatment for this disorder includes individual
psychotherapy, family therapy and behavior therapy.

Stop calling him little shit and persuade his mother to seek professional help.
BTW If it is adjustment disorder any kind of punishment only amplifies behavioral problems.

Post by Tamper proof

Post by Too_Many_Tools
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."

I've seen just exactly the opposite with children who *do not* get spanked,
but instead get some stupid whiny sounding, petite, soft-spoken and gentle
'talking to'. Said children have already become nuisances to the parent(s),
the school(s), the neighborhood, and is/are bullies, not liked well by others
the same age. One of the little shits in question is my nephew. His mother
has never laid a hand on him and he runs her life almost literally and does
what he wants to when he wants to...all starting at about 8 years old and is
now 14 or 15 (I don't give a fuck about the little shit, nor does anyone else
in the family after all the crap he's pulled over the years and his mother
snubbing her nose at *US* for trying to discipline him when we were
unfortunate enough to have had to babysit the little fucker). Dad and I have
a running bet on the age he'll be when he first gets thrown in jail.

[Dave Lyon]

Post by Alex
There is a chance that your nephew has a chronic adjustment disorder.
Symptoms includes depression(very common) and in some cases conduct disturbances(less
common)

That sounds to me like the tendency of our country to try and use medicine
instead of good parenting. I suspect the majority of kids diagnosed with ADD
or some other disorder don't need medicine nearly as much as they need to be
taught how to behave. Granted, I'm not a doctor or trained professional,
simply an opinionated observer.

[Dave Lyon]

. One of the little shits in question is my nephew. His mother

Post by Tamper proof
has never laid a hand on him and he runs her life almost literally and does
what he wants to when he wants to...all starting at about 8 years old and is
now 14 or 15 (I don't give a fuck about the little shit, nor does anyone else
in the family after all the crap he's pulled over the years and his mother
snubbing her nose at *US* for trying to discipline him when we were
unfortunate enough to have had to babysit the little fucker). Dad and I have
a running bet on the age he'll be when he first gets thrown in jail.
--

I'm curious if his mother attempts discipline of any kind?

[jim rozen]

In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Too_Many_Tools says...

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

Raising kids is a battle of wits.

If you have to hit them to enforce your will, this
is a tacit admission that you're not smart enough,
and that you've lost the battle. Most kids are
pretty smart and pick up on this right away.

This is not to say that parents don't blow a gasket
now and then and swat their offspring. I think it
should be reserved for those few times when the kid
does something really dangerous like running into
the street.

Jim

[d***@bellsouth.net]

Post by jim rozen
Too_Many_Tools says...

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

Raising kids is a battle of wits.
If you have to hit them to enforce your will, this
is a tacit admission that you're not smart enough,
and that you've lost the battle. Most kids are
pretty smart and pick up on this right away.
This is not to say that parents don't blow a gasket
now and then and swat their offspring.

Which is, of course, exactly the wrong reason and the wrong time to
spank your kids. Nevertheless, most kids survive such "traumatic
events" just fine.

Post by jim rozen
I think it
should be reserved for those few times when the kid
does something really dangerous like running into
the street.

Agreed.

Jeff

[Nick Hull]

Post by jim rozen
Raising kids is a battle of wits.
If you have to hit them to enforce your will, this
is a tacit admission that you're not smart enough,
and that you've lost the battle. Most kids are
pretty smart and pick up on this right away.

In my opinion, I spank to get the kid's attention, not as punishment.
My usual tool is a flyswatter, NEVER my hand, and missing the kid is
about 95% as effective as hitting them as long as you hit something
noisy nearby.

The actual punishment is restricting their liberty or toys.

[tg]

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
TMT
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

[Thomas Bunetta]

<snip>

Post by tg
damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

Wishful thinking!
T

[w***@little.com]

Post by tg

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
TMT
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

You must be from the UK :-)

[tg]

Post by w***@little.com

Post by tg

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
TMT
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

You must be from the UK :-)

correct sir
I applaud your intuition.