Discussion:
Omicron - a catalogue of errors?
(too old to reply)
Paul Wolff
2021-11-28 13:53:11 UTC
Permalink
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
thought, and easy to remember.

I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that English
likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those letters.

But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an example.
What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are they all just
ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
--
Paul
(in a bit of a huff)
spains...@gmail.com
2021-11-28 14:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that English
likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an example.
What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are they all just
ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
--
Paul
(in a bit of a huff)
You don't use "oh-mee-gah" when you say "Omega-3", so maybe your rule
only applies to standalone Greek o's?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-11-28 14:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters
for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o
micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively.
Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that English
likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an
example. What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are they
all just ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
No. We're living in any age where hardly anyone has a classical
education. People (other than Roman Catholic priests) know no Latin,
and as for Greek, what's that?
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
charles
2021-11-28 15:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters
for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o
micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively.
Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that English
likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an
example. What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are they
all just ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
No. We're living in any age where hardly anyone has a classical
education. People (other than Roman Catholic priests) know no Latin,
and as for Greek, what's that?
when my, now, 53yo daughter was studingb for Religious Diploma at Oxford
some 15 years ago, she learned Greek so she could study the older relevant
documents, Since her fisrt degree was in the sciences, she hadn't met it
before.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Mack A. Damia
2021-11-28 16:28:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:53:23 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters
for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o
micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively.
Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that English
likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an
example. What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are they
all just ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
No. We're living in any age where hardly anyone has a classical
education. People (other than Roman Catholic priests) know no Latin,
and as for Greek, what's that?
If you are in prison, don't drop the soap in the shower.
Kerr-Mudd, John
2021-11-28 17:24:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:28:40 -0800
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:53:23 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two
letters for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and
the 'o micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds
respectively. Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable
stress in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where
second seems more sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars
confirm that English likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the
names of those letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend
with their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels
and has a pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to
take an example. What has happened? Are they in any sense correct,
or are they all just ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
No. We're living in any age where hardly anyone has a classical
education. People (other than Roman Catholic priests) know no Latin,
and as for Greek, what's that?
If you are in prison, don't drop the soap in the shower.
Why, what happened to you?
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Mack A. Damia
2021-11-28 17:57:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:24:18 +0000, "Kerr-Mudd, John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:28:40 -0800
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:53:23 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two
letters for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and
the 'o micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds
respectively. Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable
stress in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where
second seems more sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars
confirm that English likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the
names of those letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend
with their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels
and has a pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to
take an example. What has happened? Are they in any sense correct,
or are they all just ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
No. We're living in any age where hardly anyone has a classical
education. People (other than Roman Catholic priests) know no Latin,
and as for Greek, what's that?
If you are in prison, don't drop the soap in the shower.
Why, what happened to you?
Taking notes for tonight's circle-jerk with the 2eggs peter-puffers?
Peter T. Daniels
2021-11-28 15:23:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that English
likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an example.
What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are they all just
ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
--
Paul
(in a bit of a huff)
I've never heard Omicron stressed anywhere but the first syllable.

Nor Epsilon, in case that comes up,.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-11-28 17:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that English
likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an example.
What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are they all just
ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
--
Paul
(in a bit of a huff)
I've never heard Omicron stressed anywhere but the first syllable.
Nor Epsilon, in case that comes up,.
Oddly, there seems to be free variation between [ow-] and [a-]
among newspeople for the first syllable. It doesn't correlate
with nationality.
Paul Wolff
2021-11-28 17:41:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that English
likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an example.
What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are they all just
ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
--
Paul
(in a bit of a huff)
I've never heard Omicron stressed anywhere but the first syllable.
Nor Epsilon, in case that comes up,.
Ok, thanks. Both were second-syllable WIWAL in Greek class, but I see
the OED recognises both options for epsilon.

(By "The OED" I mean the Shorter, 6th edn, 2007, with handy sound files,
which is my go-to.)
--
Paul
occam
2021-11-28 16:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible.
For what it's worth, modern Greek puts the stress on the first syllable
for o-micron, and the stress is on the second syllable for o-me-gah. I
do not think that the sounds are different when they (modern Greeks) are
being taught Ancient Greek, which is taught as a different language.



I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that English
Post by Paul Wolff
likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an example.
What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are they all just
ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
charles
2021-11-28 16:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible.
For what it's worth, modern Greek puts the stress on the first syllable
for o-micron, and the stress is on the second syllable for o-me-gah. I
do not think that the sounds are different when they (modern Greeks) are
being taught Ancient Greek, which is taught as a different language.
How do they say it in Crete? they reckon they're closer to classical greek
than on the mainlanmd.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
occam
2021-11-28 16:39:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by occam
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible.
For what it's worth, modern Greek puts the stress on the first syllable
for o-micron, and the stress is on the second syllable for o-me-gah. I
do not think that the sounds are different when they (modern Greeks) are
being taught Ancient Greek, which is taught as a different language.
How do they say it in Crete? they reckon they're closer to classical greek
than on the mainlanmd.
Sorry, no idea. I don't personally know any Cretans. Different island,
different influences.
Kerr-Mudd, John
2021-11-28 17:19:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 16:31:25 +0000 (GMT)
Post by charles
Post by occam
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two
letters for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and
the 'o micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds
respectively. Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable
stress in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where
second seems more sensible.
For what it's worth, modern Greek puts the stress on the first
syllable for o-micron, and the stress is on the second syllable for
o-me-gah. I do not think that the sounds are different when they
(modern Greeks) are being taught Ancient Greek, which is taught as
a different language.
How do they say it in Crete? they reckon they're closer to classical
greek than on the mainlanmd.
Pfft, total liars, the lot of them.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
occam
2021-11-28 17:43:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 16:31:25 +0000 (GMT)
Post by charles
Post by occam
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two
letters for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and
the 'o micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds
respectively. Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable
stress in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where
second seems more sensible.
For what it's worth, modern Greek puts the stress on the first
syllable for o-micron, and the stress is on the second syllable for
o-me-gah. I do not think that the sounds are different when they
(modern Greeks) are being taught Ancient Greek, which is taught as
a different language.
How do they say it in Crete? they reckon they're closer to classical
greek than on the mainlanmd.
Pfft, total liars, the lot of them.
Either that, or only one of them - Epimenides.
Paul Wolff
2021-11-28 17:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 16:31:25 +0000 (GMT)
Post by charles
Post by occam
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two
letters for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and
the 'o micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds
respectively. Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable
stress in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where
second seems more sensible.
For what it's worth, modern Greek puts the stress on the first
syllable for o-micron, and the stress is on the second syllable for
o-me-gah. I do not think that the sounds are different when they
(modern Greeks) are being taught Ancient Greek, which is taught as
a different language.
How do they say it in Crete? they reckon they're closer to classical
greek than on the mainlanmd.
Pfft, total liars, the lot of them.
Either that, or only one of them - Epimenides.
St Paul told Titus that Epimenides was correct (Epistle to Titus,
Chapter 1, verse 13).
--
Paul
Pamela
2021-11-28 22:39:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two
letters for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and
the 'o micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds
respectively. Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress
in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems
more sensible.
For what it's worth, modern Greek puts the stress on the first
syllable for o-micron, and the stress is on the second syllable for
o-me-gah. I do not think that the sounds are different when they
(modern Greeks) are being taught Ancient Greek, which is taught as a
different language.
The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
Greek pronunciation may be different.
Garrett Wollman
2021-11-29 00:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pamela
The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
Greek pronunciation may be different.
All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.

(j/k)

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Dingbat
2021-11-29 02:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Pamela
The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
Greek pronunciation may be different.
All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
Modern Greek has 2 i's with pronunciation spellings Yota and Ita.
Greek <oi> is often <oe> in English but <e> in "Economics",
both pronounced /i/ (also /I/?} like in modern Greek.

Greek ypsilon (looks like y) is /u/ in Greek names in the Malayalam
Bible. When did Greeks last pronouce it as a rounded vowel?
The name of the letter is pronounced like Upsilon in English but
Ipsilon in modern Greek. It was rounded when the Cyrillic alphabet
was designed judging by its sound in Russian.
Dingbat
2021-11-29 02:39:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Pamela
The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
Greek pronunciation may be different.
All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
Modern Greek has 2 i's with pronunciation spellings Yota and Ita.
Yota and Eeta, that is.
Post by Dingbat
Greek <oi> is often <oe> in English but <e> in "Economics",
both pronounced /i/ (also /I/?} like in modern Greek.
Greek ypsilon (looks like y) is /u/ in Greek names in the Malayalam
Bible. When did Greeks last pronouce it as a rounded vowel?
The name of the letter is pronounced like Upsilon in English but
Ipsilon in modern Greek. It was rounded when the Cyrillic alphabet
was designed judging by its sound in Russian.
Pamela
2021-11-29 13:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Pamela
The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because
modern Greek pronunciation may be different.
All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
Modern Greek has 2 i's with pronunciation spellings Yota and Ita.
Greek <oi> is often <oe> in English but <e> in "Economics",
both pronounced /i/ (also /I/?} like in modern Greek.
Greek ypsilon (looks like y) is /u/ in Greek names in the Malayalam
Bible. When did Greeks last pronouce it as a rounded vowel?
The name of the letter is pronounced like Upsilon in English but
Ipsilon in modern Greek. It was rounded when the Cyrillic alphabet
was designed judging by its sound in Russian.
Malayalam Bible ?
S K
2021-11-29 02:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Pamela
The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
Greek pronunciation may be different.
All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
now THAT beats "the tomato is not a vegetable", if true.

but is it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iotacism
Post by Garrett Wollman
(j/k)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
CDB
2021-11-29 13:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by S K
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Pamela
The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
Greek pronunciation may be different.
All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
now THAT beats "the tomato is not a vegetable", if true.
but is it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iotacism
Its own WParticle. Who knew?
Post by S K
Post by Garrett Wollman
(j/k)
at dinne>> --
Post by S K
Post by Garrett Wollman
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-11-29 07:31:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Pamela
The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
Greek pronunciation may be different.
All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
On their way, certainly, but some distinctions remain: α, ε and ο are not [i].
Post by Garrett Wollman
(j/k)
-GAWollman
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
CDB
2021-11-29 13:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Pamela
The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because
modern Greek pronunciation may be different.
All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
On their way, certainly, but some distinctions remain: α, ε and ο are not [i].
Post by Garrett Wollman
(j/k)
-GAWollman
I think "(j/k)" means "just kidding".
I was thinking "j[o]k[e]", but now I see you're right.
occam
2021-11-29 09:26:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Pamela
The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
Greek pronunciation may be different.
All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
Eh? I'd hate to be around when you ask your taxi driver to take you to a
καφενεíοv (café) or when order coffee (καφές) in Greece.
Peter Moylan
2021-11-29 03:53:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters
for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o
micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively.
Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress
in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems
more sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that
English likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those
letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an
example. What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are
they all just ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota. I've
only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks said it. (But
plenty who are fluent in modern Greek.) You'd have trouble finding any
school in the country where Greek is taught.

What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Jerry Friedman
2021-11-29 05:02:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 8:53:39 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
...
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
I suppose there will be a power struggle between the supporters of aleph
and those of alif.

No doubt many people here know that there's no xi variant, since the WHO avoids
giving diseases names that could cause offense, especially to the absolute ruler
of a third of the world's population.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-207834730667
--
Jerry Friedman
Richard Heathfield
2021-11-29 10:28:31 UTC
Permalink
says...
<snip>
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Alice (cf Cooper)?
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Kerr-Mudd, John
2021-11-29 10:52:25 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:28:31 +0000
Post by Richard Heathfield
says...
<snip>
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big
question is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Alice (cf Cooper)?
I thought we'd done this elsewhere;

Andrea

(OK it's more gender ambivalent, depending on country)
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Paul Wolff
2021-11-29 11:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:28:31 +0000
Post by Richard Heathfield
says...
<snip>
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big
question is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Alice (cf Cooper)?
I thought we'd done this elsewhere;
Andrea
(OK it's more gender ambivalent, depending on country)
Anon.
--
Paul
occam
2021-11-29 12:22:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:28:31 +0000
Post by Richard Heathfield
says...
<snip>
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
     We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big
question is, do we start with female names or male names.
     (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Alice (cf Cooper)?
I thought we'd done this elsewhere;
Andrea
(OK it's more gender ambivalent, depending on country)
Anon.
Alexi. Female if you are watching a US series, male if your son is Greek.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-11-29 12:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:28:31 +0000
Post by Richard Heathfield
says...
<snip>
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
     We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big
question is, do we start with female names or male names.
     (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Alice (cf Cooper)?
I thought we'd done this elsewhere;
Andrea
(OK it's more gender ambivalent, depending on country)
Anon.
Alexi. Female if you are watching a US series, male if your son is Greek.
Also Andy, I think. Female if you are watching a US series, male if
you're in the UK.
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
Adam Funk
2021-11-29 12:18:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
says...
<snip>
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Alice (cf Cooper)?
Marilyn (cf Manson) although I prefer AC.
--
Let me tell you what I think of bicycling. I think it has done more to
emancipate women than anything else in the world. I stand and rejoice
every time I see a woman ride by on a wheel. ---Susan B. Anthony
Paul Wolff
2021-11-29 11:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
O-mega? That's surely reserved for the last and greatest of them all.
--
Paul
Sam Plusnet
2021-11-29 19:02:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
O-mega? That's surely reserved for the last and greatest of them all.
MAGA shirley?
--
Sam Plusnet
occam
2021-11-29 12:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters
for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o
micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively.
Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress
in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems
more sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that
English likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those
letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
 pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an
example. What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are
they all just ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who cares,
and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis on the
first syllable)


I've
Post by Peter Moylan
only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks said it.
And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)

(But
Post by Peter Moylan
plenty who are fluent in modern Greek.) You'd have trouble finding any
school in the country where Greek is taught.
University of Melbourn, apparently.

<https://study.unimelb.edu.au/discover/inside-melbourne/languages/ancient-greek>
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
And whatever happened to covid variants: ε, ζ, η, θ, Ι , κ, λ, μ, ν,
ξ ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-11-29 16:52:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
I've
only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks said it.
And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
See W. S. Allen, *Vox Graeca* (Cambridge; used to be quite inexpensive,
now quite dear).
Peter Moylan
2021-11-30 01:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
on the first syllable)
True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.

I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
used in somebody's language.
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
said it.
And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
Rome.
Post by occam
And whatever happened to covid variants: ε, ζ, η, θ, Ι , κ, λ, μ,
ν, ξ ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
ν was skipped because somebody thought it would be confused with the
English word "new", and ξ appears to have been skipped for political
reasons. (Offensive to the Chinese leader? Nobody is saying.)

I think the others were observed and named, but were not of sufficient
concern to hit the news.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Adam Funk
2021-11-30 09:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
on the first syllable)
True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
used in somebody's language.
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
said it.
And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
Rome.
Post by occam
And whatever happened to covid variants: ε, ζ, η, θ, Ι , κ, λ, μ,
ν, ξ ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
ν was skipped because somebody thought it would be confused with the
English word "new", and ξ appears to have been skipped for political
reasons. (Offensive to the Chinese leader? Nobody is saying.)
Officially because "Xi" (pronounced differently from any of the
variations of the Greek letter) is a common surname. Naturally there's
a fracas about it.

<https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52831>
Post by Peter Moylan
I think the others were observed and named, but were not of sufficient
concern to hit the news.
--
My Shangri-La beneath the summer moon
I will return again
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-11-30 10:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
on the first syllable)
True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
used in somebody's language.
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
said it.
And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
Rome.
Post by occam
And whatever happened to covid variants: ε, ζ, η, θ, Ι , κ, λ, μ,
ν, ξ ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
ν was skipped because somebody thought it would be confused with the
English word "new", and ξ appears to have been skipped for political
reasons. (Offensive to the Chinese leader? Nobody is saying.)
Officially because "Xi" (pronounced differently from any of the
variations of the Greek letter) is a common surname.
I would guess that Mu, Nu and Pi exist as surnames. Py exists in France
-- we had a neighbour called Py.
Post by Adam Funk
Naturally there's
a fracas about it.
<https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52831>
Post by Peter Moylan
I think the others were observed and named, but were not of sufficient
concern to hit the news.
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
Stefan Ram
2021-11-30 11:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I would guess that Mu, Nu and Pi exist as surnames. Py exists in France
-- we had a neighbour called Py.
We used to have a TV called Pye. The now defunct UK company had a
distinctive logo comprising the three letters inside a circle.
When one has installed Python (the standard distribution,
CPython) on Microsoft® Windows, one can then use the command
"py" on the command line to invoke Python.

(This even works without extensions to the PATH environment
variable, and when different versions of Python have been
installed, py allows one to control which one will be used.)
Quinn C
2021-11-30 14:15:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
on the first syllable)
True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
used in somebody's language.
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
said it.
And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
Rome.
Post by occam
And whatever happened to covid variants: ε, ζ, η, θ, Ι , κ, λ, μ,
ν, ξ ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
ν was skipped because somebody thought it would be confused with the
English word "new", and ξ appears to have been skipped for political
reasons. (Offensive to the Chinese leader? Nobody is saying.)
Officially because "Xi" (pronounced differently from any of the
variations of the Greek letter) is a common surname.
In German, the name will often be pronounced like the Greek letter chi.
Should we skip that one, too? Well, German is not an official language
at the WHO.
Post by Adam Funk
Naturally there's
a fracas about it.
<https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52831>
How did this happen:

| Xi (pronounced 'Chi', or 'Ki' with long 'i'/'aye' in Brit English)

I'm not sure what sound the 'ch' is supposed to represent here, but
whichever way, none of the pronunciations indicated seem to be
reasonable. According to more reliable sources, the x in xi is
pronounced /z/, /s/ or /ks/.
--
Behold, honored adversaries,
We are the instruments of your joyful death.
Consu war chant -- J. Scalzi, Old Man's War
Paul Wolff
2021-11-30 15:50:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
on the first syllable)
True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
Eye-ota, more or less, is my usage, as taught at school, with slight
second syllable stress - the same pattern as in omicron, and with the
same 'i' in each word.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
used in somebody's language.
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
said it.
And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
Rome.
Fashions come, fashions go. Very few English speakers use a hard 'C'
when speaking of Cicero or Caesar even today.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
And whatever happened to covid variants: ?, ?, ?, ?, ? , ?, ?,
?, ? ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
? was skipped because somebody thought it would be confused with the
English word "new", and ? appears to have been skipped for political
reasons. (Offensive to the Chinese leader? Nobody is saying.)
Officially because "Xi" (pronounced differently from any of the
variations of the Greek letter) is a common surname.
In German, the name will often be pronounced like the Greek letter chi.
Should we skip that one, too? Well, German is not an official language
at the WHO.
Post by Adam Funk
Naturally there's
a fracas about it.
<https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52831>
| Xi (pronounced 'Chi', or 'Ki' with long 'i'/'aye' in Brit English)
I'm not sure what sound the 'ch' is supposed to represent here, but
whichever way, none of the pronunciations indicated seem to be
reasonable. According to more reliable sources, the x in xi is
pronounced /z/, /s/ or /ks/.
/ks/ back in the schoolroom - so if I have my ascii IPA right, that
means the letter name was pronounced /ksaI/ in my classical Greek class.
(That's supposed to use the 'aye' of two paragraphs up, or the 'eye'
near the top of this post.)
--
Paul
Ken Blake
2021-11-30 16:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
on the first syllable)
True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
Eye-ota, more or less, is my usage, as taught at school, with slight
second syllable stress - the same pattern as in omicron, and with the
same 'i' in each word.
Post by Peter Moylan
I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
used in somebody's language.
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
said it.
And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
Rome.
Fashions come, fashions go. Very few English speakers use a hard 'C'
when speaking of Cicero or Caesar even today.
When I studied Latin in high school, it was a hard C. Ecclesiastical
Latin pronounces it CH.

Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
years ago?
Adam Funk
2021-11-30 16:55:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
on the first syllable)
True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
Eye-ota, more or less, is my usage, as taught at school, with slight
second syllable stress - the same pattern as in omicron, and with the
same 'i' in each word.
Post by Peter Moylan
I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
used in somebody's language.
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
said it.
And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
Rome.
Fashions come, fashions go. Very few English speakers use a hard 'C'
when speaking of Cicero or Caesar even today.
When I studied Latin in high school, it was a hard C. Ecclesiastical
Latin pronounces it CH.
Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
years ago?
Obviously we don't have recordings, but in addition to linguistic
inference we have writings by classical Romans (e.g., Cicero, I think)
pronunciation (as well as syntax, morphology, &c.).
--
A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read.
---Mark Twain
Stefan Ram
2021-11-30 17:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
years ago?
I suggest:

Vox Latina
by Sidney Allen

because, IIRC, there, not only the pronunciation is described,
but often also explained why one thinks to know it.
Lewis
2021-11-30 17:51:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ken Blake
How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
years ago?
Vox Latina
by Sidney Allen
because, IIRC, there, not only the pronunciation is described,
but often also explained why one thinks to know it.
Thanks. I assume the book presnts his opinions, not certain facts.
I'd read it if our library had a copy (it doesn't), and it's too
expensive for me to want to buy it.
Almost all libraries are part of the Interlibrary Loan program and if
one does not have a book they can generally get it from another library.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlibrary_loan>
--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Sure, Brain, but how are we going to find chaps our size?"
Ken Blake
2021-11-30 19:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ken Blake
How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
years ago?
Vox Latina
by Sidney Allen
because, IIRC, there, not only the pronunciation is described,
but often also explained why one thinks to know it.
Thanks. I assume the book presnts his opinions, not certain facts.
I'd read it if our library had a copy (it doesn't), and it's too
expensive for me to want to buy it.
Almost all libraries are part of the Interlibrary Loan program and if
one does not have a book they can generally get it from another library.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlibrary_loan>
Yes, I know that ours is too. However a book taken out that way has to
be returned in one week, I think. I already have too big a stack of
library books to read.

Maybe one of these days.
Tony Cooper
2021-11-30 17:58:40 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:24:42 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Or, someone could teach him how to use Google, which would lead him to
Winner of the "Most Ironic Observation" of the week.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Tony Cooper
2021-12-01 20:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:24:42 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Or, someone could teach him how to use Google, which would lead him to
Winner of the "Most Ironic Observation" of the week.
Sorry, moron. Just because I'm rarely or never interested in looking up
the things that you throw up doesn't mean I don't look up things worth
looking up.
If you were a decent person, you would have reproduced the links for
Blake's benefit.
A comment by a person who often points out that his use of
GoogleGropes allows him to view all posts in a thread. He must think
that the real newsreaders that are also used are incapable of this.
Perhaps Ken wasn't interested in looking that up. If that is sufficient
to justify your behaviour, it must be equally valid for him.
Could you explain your use of "decent"?
A "decent" person doesn't use terms like "Moron" in his posts.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Tony Cooper
2021-12-01 22:44:26 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 12:46:13 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:24:42 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Or, someone could teach him how to use Google, which would lead him to
Winner of the "Most Ironic Observation" of the week.
Sorry, moron. Just because I'm rarely or never interested in looking up
the things that you throw up doesn't mean I don't look up things worth
looking up.
If you were a decent person, you would have reproduced the links for
Blake's benefit.
A comment by a person who often points out that his use of
GoogleGropes allows him to view all posts in a thread. He must think
that the real newsreaders that are also used are incapable of this.
Are you really so oblivious that you have overlooked Blake's several
recent boasts that he does not see what I write?
If Ken doesn't see your posts, it is only because Ken doesn't choose
to see your posts. His ability to do so is not affected or in any way
impaired.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Adam Funk
2021-12-02 09:01:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:24:42 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Or, someone could teach him how to use Google, which would lead him to
Winner of the "Most Ironic Observation" of the week.
Sorry, moron. Just because I'm rarely or never interested in looking up
the things that you throw up doesn't mean I don't look up things worth
looking up.
If you were a decent person, you would have reproduced the links for
Blake's benefit.
A comment by a person who often points out that his use of
GoogleGropes allows him to view all posts in a thread. He must think
that the real newsreaders that are also used are incapable of this.
Are you really so oblivious that you have overlooked Blake's several
recent boasts that he does not see what I write?
I don't try to keep track of who killfiles whom, because I think it's
their own business & I don't care.
Post by Tony Cooper
Perhaps Ken wasn't interested in looking that up. If that is sufficient
to justify your behaviour, it must be equally valid for him.
He was interested enough to check the catalog of his local library
and a listing at some on-line source, perhaps amazon (which showed
him how high the price now is).
--
I look back with the greatest pleasure to the kindness and hospitality
I met with in Yorkshire, where I spent some of the happiest years of
my life. ---Sabine Baring-Gould
CDB
2021-12-01 13:48:51 UTC
Permalink
On 11/30/2021 12:24 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

[pronunciation of Latin and ancient Greek]

[...]
https://latim.paginas.ufsc.br/files/2012/06/ALLEN-Vox-Latina-A-Guide-to-Pronunciation-of-Classical-Latin-Cambridge-1978.pdf
And then there's (different server; download button at the left)
https://kupdf.net/download/allen-w-sidney-vox-graeca-the-pronunciation-of-classical-greek_59f13ef0e2b6f50178deff2e_pdf
He won't look at my postings, so someone (if there's anyone left
whom he doesn't ignore) should inform him of these.
I don't know whether or not he (KenB) ignores my postings. Maybe we'll
find out.
Lewis
2021-11-30 17:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
years ago?
The Romans said "Kaiser".
--
You're so bad at doing acid!
Ken Blake
2021-11-30 19:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
years ago?
The Romans said "Kaiser".
You're on a roll.
Snidely
2021-11-30 22:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Lo, on the 11/30/2021, Ken Blake did proclaim ...
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Lewis
Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000 years
ago?
The Romans said "Kaiser".
You're on a roll.
It takes a bit krust to say that.

-d
--
"I am not given to exaggeration, and when I say a thing I mean it"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain
Mack A. Damia
2021-11-30 23:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 11/30/2021, Ken Blake did proclaim ...
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Lewis
Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000 years
ago?
The Romans said "Kaiser".
You're on a roll.
It takes a bit krust to say that.
Do you always have to get the last word in?

Does it always have to be idiot-speak?
Snidely
2021-12-01 00:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Mack A. Damia is guilty of <***@4ax.com>
as of 11/30/2021 3:08:51 PM
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 11/30/2021, Ken Blake did proclaim ...
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Lewis
Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000 years
ago?
The Romans said "Kaiser".
You're on a roll.
It takes a bit krust to say that.
Do you always have to get the last word in?
Does it always have to be idiot-speak?
Actually, I was trying to set up the next joke. Are you volunteering?

-d
--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl
Mack A. Damia
2021-12-01 00:51:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
as of 11/30/2021 3:08:51 PM
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 11/30/2021, Ken Blake did proclaim ...
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Lewis
Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000 years
ago?
The Romans said "Kaiser".
You're on a roll.
It takes a bit krust to say that.
Do you always have to get the last word in?
Does it always have to be idiot-speak?
Actually, I was trying to set up the next joke. Are you volunteering?
What is your mother going to say to you now that she knows you are a
two-faced little prick?
Richard Heathfield
2021-11-30 18:12:13 UTC
Permalink
How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000 years ago?
You have been directed to a published work on the subject, but you seem
still sceptical.

Let me give you a couple of examples.

Common misspellings are one way that the past hints to us on Latin's
pronunciation. To give you an English parallel, the common misspelling
of "supersede" as "supercede" will hint to future scholars that we often
but by no means always pronounce "c" as soft (because if we didn't, we
wouldn't make that particular mistake). Rhyming poetry is another
obvious way in which we can derive useful pronunciation from a textual
source. Scholars have become very, very good at inferring a very great
deal from a very, very little.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
CDB
2021-12-01 13:39:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter
except iota.
Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the
person who cares, and he will tell you the Greeks
pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis on the first syllable)
True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
Eye-ota, more or less, is my usage, as taught at school, with
slight second syllable stress - the same pattern as in omicron,
and with the same 'i' in each word.
Post by Peter Moylan
I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were
mathematical symbols. We didn't give much thought to the
fact that they were also used in somebody's language.
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient
Greeks said it.
+ me.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to
how the ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England
before he became a professor of Classics, and even I could
tell that the way he pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of
England rather than the Latin of Rome.
My practice is to say it like Kikero when quoting classical Latin and
like the Pope when it's religious text. In ordinary English contexts, I
see no reason to change the traditional English pronunciation. "Bonner
fighdee", if you're non-rhotic.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Paul Wolff
Fashions come, fashions go. Very few English speakers use a hard
'C' when speaking of Cicero or Caesar even today.
When I studied Latin in high school, it was a hard C. Ecclesiastical
Latin pronounces it CH.
And the traditional English pronunciation makes it [s], as in - uh -
"Cicero" and "Caesar".
Post by Ken Blake
Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
years ago?
I think the clincher was finding Latin words that had "c"s before front
vowels transcribed into Greek with kappas. I think the main concern in
using Latin (or Greek) in English ought to be clarity of meaning, and
perhaps the scholarly reputation of the speaker.
Jerry Friedman
2021-12-01 15:38:14 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
years ago?
I think the clincher was finding Latin words that had "c"s before front
vowels transcribed into Greek with kappas. I think the main concern in
using Latin (or Greek) in English ought to be clarity of meaning, and
perhaps the scholarly reputation of the speaker.
Τὰ Καίσαρος ἀπόδοτε Καίσαρι.

Ta Kaisaros apodote Kaisari.

The things of Caesar give back to Caesar.

https://biblehub.com/text/mark/12-17.htm
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2021-12-01 17:30:57 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
years ago?
I think the clincher was finding Latin words that had "c"s before front
vowels transcribed into Greek with kappas. I think the main concern in
using Latin (or Greek) in English ought to be clarity of meaning, and
perhaps the scholarly reputation of the speaker.
?? ???????? ?π????? ???????.
Ta Kaisaros apodote Kaisari.
The things of Caesar give back to Caesar.
Well known to all students of Asterix.
No need to invoke bibles,

Jan
https://biblehub.com/text/mark/12-17.htm
Sam Plusnet
2021-12-01 17:48:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
years ago?
I think the clincher was finding Latin words that had "c"s before front
vowels transcribed into Greek with kappas. I think the main concern in
using Latin (or Greek) in English ought to be clarity of meaning, and
perhaps the scholarly reputation of the speaker.
Τὰ Καίσαρος ἀπόδοτε Καίσαρι.
Ta Kaisaros apodote Kaisari.
The things of Caesar give back to Caesar.
Are there fines for overdue returns?
--
Sam Plusnet
Richard Heathfield
2021-12-01 17:53:43 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Jerry Friedman
The things of Caesar give back to Caesar.
Are there fines for overdue returns?
Yes, but it doesn't work the other way round. That was the mistake
Alexandria made.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Lewis
2021-11-30 17:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
I'm not sure what sound the 'ch' is supposed to represent here, but
whichever way, none of the pronunciations indicated seem to be
reasonable. According to more reliable sources, the x in xi is
pronounced /z/, /s/ or /ks/.
ODE: xi | ksʌɪ, ɡzʌɪ, sʌɪ, zʌɪ |
MOAD: xi | zaɪ, ksaɪ |

the fourteenth letter of the Greek alphabet (Ξ, ξ), transliterated as ‘x’.
• (Xi) [followed by Latin genitive ] Astronomy the fourteenth star
in a specified constellation: Xi Cygni.
--
'It's easy to hold everything in common when no one's got anything.'
Tak To
2021-12-01 06:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
on the first syllable)
True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
used in somebody's language.
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
said it.
And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
Rome.
Post by occam
And whatever happened to covid variants: ε, ζ, η, θ, Ι , κ, λ, μ,
ν, ξ ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
ν was skipped because somebody thought it would be confused with the
English word "new", and ξ appears to have been skipped for political
reasons. (Offensive to the Chinese leader? Nobody is saying.)
Officially because "Xi" (pronounced differently from any of the
variations of the Greek letter) is a common surname. Naturally there's
a fracas about it.
<https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52831>
The above Language Log article mentions that the Chinese
President's surname 習/习 <xi2> is absent from a 2013 list of the
400 most common surnames in China[1]. However, it should be
pointed out that it is in a 2007 list of the 500 most common
surnames[1], at the 395th place.

Moreover, in the top 400 list, there are the surnames 席 <xi2>
(213rd) and 奚 <xi1> (278th), with a total of about 710K people.

OTOH, the surnames 牟 <mu4> (183rd), 穆 <mu4> (188th), 母 <mu3>
(344th), and 慕 <mu4> (361st) together accounts for 1.5M people.
Unfair, isn't it?

Further down the list of letters, there is 皮 <pi2> (279th)
with about 229K people.

And 池 <chi2> (251st) and 遲/迟 <chi2> (255th) with about 660K
people.

I should perhaps mention that my own surname 陶 <tao2> is at
the 85th place with 2.7M people. Will the WHO would skip tau
for us?

Similarly, 司 <si1> (190th) and 斯 <si1> (383rd) together
have about 683K people. Close enough to psi?

[1]
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E5%A7%93%E6%B0%8F%E6%8E%92%E5%90%8D#2013%E5%B9%B44%E6%9C%88
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tak To
2021-12-02 04:16:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
[...]
I should perhaps mention that my own surname 陶 <tao2> is at
the 85th place with 2.7M people. Will the WHO would skip tau
for us?
Just out of curiosity, why do you spell it "To" rather than "Tao"?
I first went to Hong Kong when I was six. I needed to get a
"statue of declaration" since I did not have a birth
certificate. Since neither my grandmother (my legal guardian)
nor I knew any English, it was up to the government clerk who
decided how my name should be transcribed.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Adam Funk
2021-12-02 09:02:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Tak To
[...]
I should perhaps mention that my own surname 陶 <tao2> is at
the 85th place with 2.7M people. Will the WHO would skip tau
for us?
Just out of curiosity, why do you spell it "To" rather than "Tao"?
I first went to Hong Kong when I was six. I needed to get a
"statue of declaration" since I did not have a birth
certificate. Since neither my grandmother (my legal guardian)
nor I knew any English, it was up to the government clerk who
decided how my name should be transcribed.
Using a different romanization system for 陶, I guess?
--
You planned to leave me cold
But you'll never get your wish
On the 24th of May
I'll gather up your reins
Tak To
2021-12-03 06:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Tak To
Post by Tak To
[...]
I should perhaps mention that my own surname 陶 <tao2> is at
the 85th place with 2.7M people. Will the WHO would skip tau
for us?
Just out of curiosity, why do you spell it "To" rather than "Tao"?
I first went to Hong Kong when I was six. I needed to get a
"statue of declaration" since I did not have a birth
certificate. Since neither my grandmother (my legal guardian)
nor I knew any English, it was up to the government clerk who
decided how my name should be transcribed.
Using a different romanization system for 陶, I guess?
Based on Cantonese pronunciation; and not so much a system than
a hodge-podge of conventions for transcribing personal and
geographical names.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Quinn C
2021-12-02 13:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Tak To
[...]
I should perhaps mention that my own surname 陶 <tao2> is at
the 85th place with 2.7M people. Will the WHO would skip tau
for us?
Just out of curiosity, why do you spell it "To" rather than "Tao"?
I first went to Hong Kong when I was six. I needed to get a
"statue of declaration" since I did not have a birth
certificate. Since neither my grandmother (my legal guardian)
nor I knew any English, it was up to the government clerk who
decided how my name should be transcribed.
And they chose a Cantonese transcription, not the Mandarin "Tao":
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_(surname)#Romanization>
--
What Phrenzy in my Bosom rag'd,
And by what Care to be asswag'd?
-- Sappho, transl. Addison (1711)
What was it that my distracted heart most wanted?
-- transl. Barnard (1958)
Adam Funk
2021-12-02 15:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
Post by Tak To
[...]
I should perhaps mention that my own surname 陶 <tao2> is at
the 85th place with 2.7M people. Will the WHO would skip tau
for us?
Just out of curiosity, why do you spell it "To" rather than "Tao"?
I first went to Hong Kong when I was six. I needed to get a
"statue of declaration" since I did not have a birth
certificate. Since neither my grandmother (my legal guardian)
nor I knew any English, it was up to the government clerk who
decided how my name should be transcribed.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_(surname)#Romanization>
That answers my question, & makes sense.
--
a rose that's not from anywhere that you would know or I would care
CDB
2021-12-02 17:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
[...] I should perhaps mention that my own surname 陶 <tao2>
is at the 85th place with 2.7M people. Will the WHO would
skip tau for us?
Just out of curiosity, why do you spell it "To" rather than
"Tao"?
I first went to Hong Kong when I was six. I needed to get a
"statue of declaration" since I did not have a birth certificate.
Since neither my grandmother (my legal guardian) nor I knew any
English, it was up to the government clerk who decided how my
name should be transcribed.
Could it be the Cantonese version? One of my favourite local
restaurants was called the Ho Ho in Roman letters, but the
characters said "Haohao" (Excellence").
And then there's the one written Ho Ho Ho, but the character says
"Christmas".
Postal code H0H 0H0.
Tak To
2021-12-03 08:51:07 UTC
Permalink
[...] I should perhaps mention that my own surname 陶 <tao2> is
at the 85th place with 2.7M people. Will the WHO would skip tau
for us?
Just out of curiosity, why do you spell it "To" rather than "Tao"?
I first went to Hong Kong when I was six. I needed to get a "statue
of declaration" since I did not have a birth certificate. Since
neither my grandmother (my legal guardian) nor I knew any English, it
was up to the government clerk who decided how my name should be
transcribed.
Could it be the Cantonese version?
A hodge-podge of conventions based on the Cantonese pronunciation.
One of my favourite local
restaurants was called the Ho Ho in Roman letters, but the characters
said "Haohao" (Excellence").
That can be either Cantonese or Taishanese.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Ken Blake
2021-11-29 15:25:05 UTC
Permalink
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters
for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o
micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively.
Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress
in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems
more sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that
English likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those
letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an
example. What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are
they all just ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota. I've
only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks said it. (But
plenty who are fluent in modern Greek.) You'd have trouble finding any
school in the country where Greek is taught.
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Andy?
Peter Moylan
2021-11-30 01:42:18 UTC
Permalink
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Andy?
That's the name of the swagman in the song "Waltzing Matilda".

Andy sang as he watched
Andy waited till his billy boiled.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Ken Blake
2021-11-30 16:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Andy?
That's the name of the swagman in the song "Waltzing Matilda".
Andy sang as he watched
Andy waited till his billy boiled.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was

Andy sang as he sat
and waited till his billy boiled.
Ken Blake
2021-11-30 22:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Andy?
That's the name of the swagman in the song "Waltzing Matilda".
Andy sang as he watched
Andy waited till his billy boiled.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was
Andy sang as he sat
and waited till his billy boiled.
You're right about the second line, but I don't think I've ever heard a
version with "sat". It's possible, of course.
A Google search found both. Here's one with "sat":
https://kids.niehs.nih.gov/games/songs/childrens/waltzing-matilda/index.htm
Peter Moylan
2021-12-01 01:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Andy?
That's the name of the swagman in the song "Waltzing Matilda".
Andy sang as he watched
Andy waited till his billy boiled.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was
Andy sang as he sat
and waited till his billy boiled.
You're right about the second line, but I don't think I've ever heard a
version with "sat". It's possible, of course.
https://kids.niehs.nih.gov/games/songs/childrens/waltzing-matilda/index.htm
That site has a number of departures from the usual words, but to give
it credit it does show the original words further down. Perhaps someone
thought the altered words were more suitable for children.

The audio has a bit of a hillbilly feel to it.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Madhu
2021-12-01 04:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Andy?
That's the name of the swagman in the song "Waltzing Matilda".
Andy sang as he watched
Andy waited till his billy boiled.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was
Andy sang as he sat
and waited till his billy boiled.
You're right about the second line, but I don't think I've ever heard a
version with "sat". It's possible, of course.
https://kids.niehs.nih.gov/games/songs/childrens/waltzing-matilda/index.htm
That site has a number of departures from the usual words, but to give
it credit it does show the original words further down. Perhaps someone
thought the altered words were more suitable for children.
The audio has a bit of a hillbilly feel to it.
I'm inclinded to trust the version given in that old 90s nsfw (nudes)
site (was deartilly) http://matildascully.com/

warning nsfw nudes
Madhu
2021-12-01 05:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madhu
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Andy sang as he watched
Andy waited till his billy boiled.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was
Andy sang as he sat
and waited till his billy boiled.
You're right about the second line, but I don't think I've ever heard a
version with "sat". It's possible, of course.
https://kids.niehs.nih.gov/games/songs/childrens/waltzing-matilda/index.htm
That site has a number of departures from the usual words, but to give
it credit it does show the original words further down. Perhaps someone
thought the altered words were more suitable for children.
The audio has a bit of a hillbilly feel to it.
I'm inclinded to trust the version given in that old 90s nsfw (nudes)
site (was deartilly) http://matildascully.com/
warning nsfw nudes
(only one nude, but i guess she has mostly the american version on that
page and not the one listed as "Authentic Australian
Version". nevermind)
Ken Blake
2021-12-01 16:06:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madhu
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Andy?
That's the name of the swagman in the song "Waltzing Matilda".
Andy sang as he watched
Andy waited till his billy boiled.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was
Andy sang as he sat
and waited till his billy boiled.
You're right about the second line, but I don't think I've ever heard a
version with "sat". It's possible, of course.
https://kids.niehs.nih.gov/games/songs/childrens/waltzing-matilda/index.htm
That site has a number of departures from the usual words, but to give
it credit it does show the original words further down. Perhaps someone
thought the altered words were more suitable for children.
The audio has a bit of a hillbilly feel to it.
I'm inclinded to trust the version given in that old 90s nsfw (nudes)
site (was deartilly) http://matildascully.com/
To me, the most interesting thing about that site is that I found out
what a "billabong" was. I've long known it was a body of water, but I
never before knew it was what I know as an "oxbow lake."
Quinn C
2021-11-30 23:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Andy?
That's the name of the swagman in the song "Waltzing Matilda".
Andy sang as he watched
Andy waited till his billy boiled.
Why would one want to boil a club?
--
Do they have hot baseball now, after hot yoga?
Ken Blake
2021-12-01 16:07:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Moylan
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Andy?
That's the name of the swagman in the song "Waltzing Matilda".
Andy sang as he watched
Andy waited till his billy boiled.
Why would one want to boil a club?
A club? I thought it was his brother.
Sam Plusnet
2021-12-01 17:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Moylan
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Andy?
That's the name of the swagman in the song "Waltzing Matilda".
Andy sang as he watched
Andy waited till his billy boiled.
Why would one want to boil a club?
They refused to let him join.
--
Sam Plusnet
lar3ryca
2021-11-29 15:42:57 UTC
Permalink
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters
for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o
micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively.
Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress
in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems
more sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that
English likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those
letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an
example. What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are
they all just ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota. I've
only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks said it. (But
plenty who are fluent in modern Greek.) You'd have trouble finding any
school in the country where Greek is taught.
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Janet.
Andre
spains...@gmail.com
2021-11-29 16:14:03 UTC
Permalink
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Paul Wolff
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters
for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o
micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively.
Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress
in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems
more sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that
English likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those
letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an
example. What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are
they all just ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota. I've
only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks said it. (But
plenty who are fluent in modern Greek.) You'd have trouble finding any
school in the country where Greek is taught.
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Janet.
Andre
"Alex" for Alexandra and Alexander.
Jerry Friedman
2021-11-29 16:28:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
says...
...
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Janet.
Andre
"Alex" for Alexandra and Alexander.
Which was discussed here recently.

Alexis peaked around 2000 in the U.S. for both boys and girls, but much higher for
girls.

https://www.behindthename.com/name/alexis/top/united-states

"Ashley" was at 0.005% for boys and 0.009% for girls in 1964 in the U.S. It increased
slowly for boys and much faster for girls, then fell for both, starting to fall earlier for
boys.

https://www.behindthename.com/name/ashley/top

In England&Wales it's always been more popular for boys.

https://www.behindthename.com/name/ashley/top/england-wales
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2021-11-29 16:58:01 UTC
Permalink
"Ashley" was at 0.005% for boys and 0.009% for girls in 1964 in the U.S. It increased
slowly for boys and much faster for girls, then fell for both, starting to fall earlier for
boys.
https://www.behindthename.com/name/ashley/top
In England&Wales it's always been more popular for boys.
https://www.behindthename.com/name/ashley/top/england-wales
Shirley, there was a surge in 1939, because Ashley Wilkes?

And a concomitant ebbing of Rhett.

Or even '36, with the book.

And then Leslie Howard perished romantically and heroically in the RAF.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-11-29 16:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
They'll alternate girl names and boy names.
lar3ryca
2021-12-01 04:55:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
Hebrew?
No, just the end of the world. Omega has strong meanings.
https://www.cybersalt.org/funny-pictures/mayan-calendar-break
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