Discussion:
5 Lies
(too old to reply)
m***@btopenworld.com
2019-11-05 15:21:57 UTC
Permalink
1. The Tories want to privatise the NHS.

It would be easy enough to find five examples on the NHS alone. Let’s suspend reality for a moment and imagine that there is some way in which a free trade agreement with the US could add £500 million a week to the NHS drugs bill. Are we seriously expected to believe that any UK government would ever agree to something so obviously toxic, and that the public would let them get away with it?

Bogus "privatisation" claims provide more examples. There has been an increase in the proportion of government spending on healthcare going to private companies, but this is still paying for goods and services which are provided to NHS patients on the same basis as any others. That’s not "privatisation". It’s delivering universal healthcare in the most efficient way.

2. Poverty is going up
Rebecca Long-Bailey claimed at the weekend that inequality in the UK is rising on an "unprecedented scale". This is simply not true. The last significant and sustained increase in income inequality was in the 1980s. Since then, most measures of inequality, whether you look at income or wealth, have barely changed – or actually fallen.

Perhaps the Shadow Business Secretary just misspoke. But the Left consistently mispresents the data on inequality. For example, Labour likes to portray the UK as some sort of outlier where extraordinary numbers of households, especially those with children, are facing serious hardship.

In particular, Labour has made a lot of statistics suggesting that more than 14 million people in the UK live in "poverty". However, this figure is based on a relative measure, where you’re considered to be poor if you earn less than a certain percentage of the average income, rather than what most people would understand as poverty, which is not having enough to get by.

What’s more, even on the relative basis, levels of poverty in the UK are similar to those in countries such as Australia, Canada, Germany, Luxembourg and New Zealand. And since they come up a lot, levels of foodbank use in the UK are unexceptional by international standards too.

Of course, this is not to say that there isn’t a poverty problem in the UK. But by painting it to be much worse than it is, Labour is attempting to justify fundamental (and damaging) changes in the UK’s economic model, when what is actually needed is targeted support for those who need it most.

3. Austerity has killed 120,000 people
There’s a healthy debate to be had about whether the fiscal tightening in the early 2010s went too far, especially when the economy was still weak, interest rates were already low, and many other countries were cutting back too. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But to paint austerity as an ideological choice amounting to "economic murder" is very wrong.

In particular, many Labour politicians have seized on claims that austerity has cost at least "120,000 lives". This figure is based on the extrapolation of a relatively short period when mortality rates were higher than might have been expected, based on previous trends, which coincided with a period when public spending grew more slowly.

But as many independent experts have pointed out, this evidence is just not good enough to support claims that austerity has actually caused the variation in mortality rates. Indeed, there have been similar variations in other countries, and in the UK in the past, even under very different conditions.

4. Billionaires only ever get rich through ill-gotten gains
Labour has form when it comes to its attacks on billionaires, enthusiastically recycling dodgy claims from Oxfam about inequality which any serious researcher would also pull apart. But fundamentally, Labour’s attacks are based on the lie that there is only a fixed amount of income or wealth, so that if someone has more, someone else must have less. Rarely, if ever, does Labour ask what a billionaire might have done to earn their good fortune – it is simply assumed to be ill-gotten gains.

5. Companies can be made to pay endless tax
It’s a lie to suggest that business leaders are deliberately setting out to make money from "polluting the environment", and that their activities are nothing to do with the rest of us. The reality is that companies respond to consumer demand.

It’s also a lie to suggest that businesses are a magic money tree that can always be shaken for more tax. Companies are only abstract legal entities and cannot bear the economic burden of taxes themselves. Instead, all taxes are ultimately paid by people. If corporate taxes rise, customers and employees are at least as likely to pick up the bill as the shareholders, who themselves are just as likely to be small investors looking to build up a decent pension.

Fortunately, the latest opinion polls suggest that the electorate is seeing through Labour’s guff. Long may that continue.
Mark Devon
2019-11-05 15:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Oh dear, you are desperate. How many times has the Tory party lied regarding the Brexit completion date? Both May and Johnson.

Do you still want a 'no deal' Brexit and will you therefore support the Brexit party?
Ian Jackson
2019-11-05 16:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Devon
Oh dear, you are desperate. How many times has the Tory party lied
regarding the Brexit completion date? Both May and Johnson.
Do you still want a 'no deal' Brexit and will you therefore support the Brexit party?
Please don't judge the Tories too harshly.

A lie is essentially saying something that you KNOW is untrue or
incorrect.

Some of the Tory 'lies' are not so much 'lies', but instead are more a
foolish aspiration to carry out obviously impossible tasks, followed by
the inevitable failure to do so.
--
Ian
Pamela
2019-11-06 11:53:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Mark Devon
Oh dear, you are desperate. How many times has the Tory party lied
regarding the Brexit completion date? Both May and Johnson.
Do you still want a 'no deal' Brexit and will you therefore support the Brexit party?
Please don't judge the Tories too harshly.
A lie is essentially saying something that you KNOW is untrue or
incorrect.
Some of the Tory 'lies' are not so much 'lies', but instead are more a
foolish aspiration to carry out obviously impossible tasks, followed by
the inevitable failure to do so.
At first Boris may or may not have believed his 31st October deadline (or his
intent to not send the Art50 letter). However as time went on it was a
puzzle to all observers how Boris could keep on asserting what everyone else
could see was untrue.

Perhaps he is a psychopath who believes his fantasies but I'm inclined to
think he is lying knowingly. Perhaps both.

Keema's Nan
2019-11-05 17:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
1. The Tories want to privatise the NHS.
A large part of the NHS budget today is used to administer the compulsory
tendering process and stave off legal challenges from profit-seeking
companies. This is money that once went to patient care. The Conservatives
claimed that the removal of ‘preferred provider’ status from the NHS
should mean the company providing the best quality, most cost-effective
service would win the contract, creating greater efficiency and driving up
standards. In reality, corporations like Serco and VirginCare hire
professional teams to write legally robust bids. Therefore, lucrative
profit-making contracts are invariably awarded to private companies.

Privatisation has thus more than doubled since 2010
(https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/15/creeping-privatisation-nhs-
official-data-owen-smith-outsourcing). Virgin alone has been awarded almost
£2 billion
(https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/05/virgin-awarded-almost-2bn-of-
nhs-contracts-in-the-past-five-years) worth of NHS contracts in the past five
years. Private provision is widespread, ranging from 33 to 97 percent in
services areas such as mental health, psychiatric care, and healthcare
services for people living in secure settings. Commercial sensitivity
protections afforded to private corporations as well as cuts to NHS
England’s budget have resulted in little oversight to the quality of care
delivered to the most vulnerable people in our communities.

Driven by the profit motive, corporate interests consistently cherry-pick
services, transferring profitable services out of public hands into the
private sector, leaving the NHS with the unprofitable services without the
buffer of the lucrative parts of the system.

Companies also tend to over-promise then under-deliver. Earlier this year
Colosseum Dental handed back a suite
(https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/health/nhs-to-rap-firm-for-breaching-contract-
and-causing-portsmouth-dental-crisis-1-9019804) of its NHS dentistry
contracts leaving the city of Portsmouth without a single NHS dentist —
this would have been impossible under the public service ethos that once
guided our health service. Private companies also only fulfil the specific
terms of their contract, which can lead to people falling through the cracks.
In a recent example, NHS staff in HMP New Hall are unable to deliver care to
babies living with their mothers because Care UK’s contract has only been
awarded for adults.

Moving public health to local government, concurrent with slashed council
budgets, has also had a disastrous impact on public health services.
Dwindling prevention is putting pressure on the NHS and making us all more
vulnerable to public health crises.

Reduced council resources mean less funding available to assist people in
crucial public health causes such as the taking up of vaccinations. A recent
National Audit Office (NAO) report
(https://www.nao.org.uk/report/investigation-into-pre-school-vaccinations/)
concluded that the coalition’s reorganisation of the health system, as well
as austerity-related factors including lack of availability of GP
appointments and nurse shortages, are significant elements in the fall in
child vaccination rates in England. As a result, measles outbreaks are rising
and the World Health Organisation has revoked the UK’s measles-free status.
abelard
2019-11-06 06:55:58 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 17:15:19 +0000, Keema's Nan
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
1. The Tories want to privatise the NHS.
A large part of the NHS budget today is used to administer the compulsory
tendering process and stave off legal challenges from profit-seeking
companies. This is money that once went to patient care. The Conservatives
claimed that the removal of ‘preferred provider’ status from the NHS
should mean the company providing the best quality, most cost-effective
service would win the contract, creating greater efficiency and driving up
standards. In reality, corporations like Serco and VirginCare hire
professional teams to write legally robust bids. Therefore, lucrative
profit-making contracts are invariably awarded to private companies.
Privatisation has thus more than doubled since 2010
(https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/15/creeping-privatisation-nhs-
official-data-owen-smith-outsourcing). Virgin alone has been awarded almost
£2 billion
(https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/05/virgin-awarded-almost-2bn-of-
nhs-contracts-in-the-past-five-years) worth of NHS contracts in the past five
years. Private provision is widespread, ranging from 33 to 97 percent in
services areas such as mental health, psychiatric care, and healthcare
services for people living in secure settings. Commercial sensitivity
protections afforded to private corporations as well as cuts to NHS
England’s budget have resulted in little oversight to the quality of care
delivered to the most vulnerable people in our communities.
Driven by the profit motive, corporate interests consistently cherry-pick
services, transferring profitable services out of public hands into the
private sector, leaving the NHS with the unprofitable services without the
buffer of the lucrative parts of the system.
Companies also tend to over-promise then under-deliver. Earlier this year
Colosseum Dental handed back a suite
(https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/health/nhs-to-rap-firm-for-breaching-contract-
and-causing-portsmouth-dental-crisis-1-9019804) of its NHS dentistry
contracts leaving the city of Portsmouth without a single NHS dentist —
this would have been impossible under the public service ethos that once
guided our health service. Private companies also only fulfil the specific
terms of their contract, which can lead to people falling through the cracks.
In a recent example, NHS staff in HMP New Hall are unable to deliver care to
babies living with their mothers because Care UK’s contract has only been
awarded for adults.
Moving public health to local government, concurrent with slashed council
budgets, has also had a disastrous impact on public health services.
Dwindling prevention is putting pressure on the NHS and making us all more
vulnerable to public health crises.
Reduced council resources mean less funding available to assist people in
crucial public health causes such as the taking up of vaccinations. A recent
National Audit Office (NAO) report
(https://www.nao.org.uk/report/investigation-into-pre-school-vaccinations/)
concluded that the coalition’s reorganisation of the health system, as well
as austerity-related factors including lack of availability of GP
appointments and nurse shortages, are significant elements in the fall in
child vaccination rates in England. As a result, measles outbreaks are rising
and the World Health Organisation has revoked the UK’s measles-free status.
where did you source than inundation of double talk?

it would take a book to go through it...

as an example, what percentage of the population need assistance in
taking up vaccinations? how does this relate to herd immunity?
why should single mother kaytlyn smith-jones take her precious
bundle for vaccination if it will lessen her time on her 'phone
and cut into her resources for obtaining essential heroin?

herd immunity will protect her without all that fuss...and if
little marmidooke smith-jones gets 'autism' from measles...surely
serco or virgin services can take up any slack without a victim
like kaytlyn suffering any inconvenience...
it is after all kaytyn's human right to stay home looking after the
precious child in her council provided accomodation...

that's what welfare and socialism and solidarity mean surely

i'm certain agent cob and his liars will 'promise' it all to you right
now...and give you the bonus of telling you how that mean
boris is a cheating liar
--
www.abelard.org
Farmer Giles
2019-11-06 08:01:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by abelard
On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 17:15:19 +0000, Keema's Nan
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
1. The Tories want to privatise the NHS.
A large part of the NHS budget today is used to administer the compulsory
tendering process and stave off legal challenges from profit-seeking
companies. This is money that once went to patient care. The Conservatives
claimed that the removal of ‘preferred provider’ status from the NHS
should mean the company providing the best quality, most cost-effective
service would win the contract, creating greater efficiency and driving up
standards. In reality, corporations like Serco and VirginCare hire
professional teams to write legally robust bids. Therefore, lucrative
profit-making contracts are invariably awarded to private companies.
Privatisation has thus more than doubled since 2010
(https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/15/creeping-privatisation-nhs-
official-data-owen-smith-outsourcing). Virgin alone has been awarded almost
£2 billion
(https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/05/virgin-awarded-almost-2bn-of-
nhs-contracts-in-the-past-five-years) worth of NHS contracts in the past five
years. Private provision is widespread, ranging from 33 to 97 percent in
services areas such as mental health, psychiatric care, and healthcare
services for people living in secure settings. Commercial sensitivity
protections afforded to private corporations as well as cuts to NHS
England’s budget have resulted in little oversight to the quality of care
delivered to the most vulnerable people in our communities.
Driven by the profit motive, corporate interests consistently cherry-pick
services, transferring profitable services out of public hands into the
private sector, leaving the NHS with the unprofitable services without the
buffer of the lucrative parts of the system.
Companies also tend to over-promise then under-deliver. Earlier this year
Colosseum Dental handed back a suite
(https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/health/nhs-to-rap-firm-for-breaching-contract-
and-causing-portsmouth-dental-crisis-1-9019804) of its NHS dentistry
contracts leaving the city of Portsmouth without a single NHS dentist —
this would have been impossible under the public service ethos that once
guided our health service. Private companies also only fulfil the specific
terms of their contract, which can lead to people falling through the cracks.
In a recent example, NHS staff in HMP New Hall are unable to deliver care to
babies living with their mothers because Care UK’s contract has only been
awarded for adults.
Moving public health to local government, concurrent with slashed council
budgets, has also had a disastrous impact on public health services.
Dwindling prevention is putting pressure on the NHS and making us all more
vulnerable to public health crises.
Reduced council resources mean less funding available to assist people in
crucial public health causes such as the taking up of vaccinations. A recent
National Audit Office (NAO) report
(https://www.nao.org.uk/report/investigation-into-pre-school-vaccinations/)
concluded that the coalition’s reorganisation of the health system, as well
as austerity-related factors including lack of availability of GP
appointments and nurse shortages, are significant elements in the fall in
child vaccination rates in England. As a result, measles outbreaks are rising
and the World Health Organisation has revoked the UK’s measles-free status.
where did you source than inundation of double talk?
it would take a book to go through it...
No it wouldn't. It would take some with an argument against what was
said, and the ability to compose and articulate one - so that certainly
rules you out.
Post by abelard
as an example, what percentage of the population need assistance in
taking up vaccinations?
The only thing that is an example of is another of your straw-man
diversions when your clear lack of intelligence rules out a sensible
response.
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