Christopher Kreuzer
2004-09-05 22:09:52 UTC
Crossposted to RABT.
Let me just start by saying, that due to a 6-month stay in Dublin,
where apparently it still is not a given to provide students
residences with an Internet connection I have been unable to follow
the discussions properly since New Years. Therefore, I might be
touching on some points that have already been discussed. For that
I'm sorry, but I simply don't have time to start going through the
google archives to read all the discussions to each and every chapter.
Since I have now been transferred from Dublin to Warsaw, I have
arrived at a place where things such as an Internet connection is a
lot easier to get hold of than in Dublin, so from now on I should be
able to participate properly in discussions. Beginning this week with
my favourite chapter: The Voice of Saruman.
The chapter starts by a description of Isengard after the water has
subsided, showing how polluted the entire site must have been.
Merry - in nice hobbit fashion - tells Gandalf, that he feels less
ill-disposed towards Saruman now that he (Merry) has had the chance
to eat, drink and smoke from Saruman's storeroom. (1) Gandalf says
that his opinion of Saruman has not changed and that he must have a
last meeting with him.
Gandalf warns Pippin and Gimli about the dangers of Saruman - they are
advised to be aware of Saruman's voice.
Gandalf, Éomer, Théoden , Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli walk the stairs
of Orthanc to speak to Saruman, while Merry and Pippin are left at
the bottom step. (2)
Wormtongue asks from a window who it is and what they want. (3)
Gandalf demands to speak to Saruman. Then follows a description of
the magical properties of Saruman's voice. Its powerful effects are
described quite vividly, and no one could remain unmoved by it.
Saruman mentions that he knows at least two of the names of the
people on his doorstep: Théoden and Gandalf. He addresses Théoden
first, trying to convince him, that Saruman is the only one who can
help him now and that the former white wizard does not hold a grudge,
even though so much harm has been done to him. We learn that most of
the men in the army started believing Saruman's words, but that Gimli
sees through the rhetoric. (4) At this point Saruman reveals that he
knows the name - and ancestry - of Gimli as well. (5)
Éomer starts talking, when Théoden remains silent, in order to
counter the influence of the voice on hi master, just to be mocked by
Saruman: "Slay whom your lord names as enemies, and be content.
Meddle not in policies which you do not understand." Saying that only
kings understand Realpolitk, where power is more important than
friendship. Again, Saruman reveals that he knew the name of Éomer all
the way long.
Saruman then makes an interesting point: that he cannot be called a
murderer, just because some men died in a battle, that Saruman claims
he did not desire. If that were the case, then all great kings of
Rohan would be murderers too. He then offers peace to Théoden, who
rejects if after a few seconds of silence, saying that he will have
piece once Saruman hangs from a gibbet. (6) (7)
After this refusal, Saruman mocks Rohan and her equestrians, just to
address Gandalf beginning with a few compliments. (8) His way of
talking to Gandalf is masterfully described as the way a kindly king
would talk to "an erring, but much loved minister." Saruman offers,
that he and Gandalf should join forces for their common good and
ignore the lesser folk. Apparently, all the people listening, even
Théoden, feared that Gandalf would accept the offer and leave them to
whatever destiny the wise might decide for them. (9)
Gandalf just laughs at the offer, and after ridiculing Saruman he
offers him to come down and leave Orthanc as a free man, but with out
his staff and with out the key to Orthanc.
Saruman turns this offer into a powerful attack on Gandalf,
suggesting that all Gandalf wants is more power for himself and that
Gandalf will not be satisfied until he owns the crowns of seven kings
(10) and the rods of the Five Wizards. (11) After this rant, he turns
to leave, but Gandalf orders him to stay and Saruman obeys.
Gandalf rebukes Saruman for his pride and then declares himself as
Gandalf the White and casts Saruman from the order and the Council,
breaking Saruman 's staff with a spell. (12)
Saruman leaves the balcony and at the same time, Wormtounge threw a
large shiny ball out of the window. (13) Pippin picks up the item,
but Gandalf quickly takes it from him, hiding it in his cloak, while
suggesting that it was an item of great importance.
They descend the stairs and are saluted by the host. The spell of
Saruman's voice is broken after they have seen him obey Gandalf.
Merry asks whether there could have been a different outcome to the
debate and Gandalf answers that it would not be likely, but that he
had to try for several reasons. Saruman could still have been of
value if he had mended his ways. Gandalf says that he does not wish
for mastery. (14)
Treebeard approaches and Gandalf introduces him to Aragorn, Gimli and
Legolas. Legolas is of interest to the Ent, since he is an Elf and
from Mirkwood. Legolas then asks politely for permission to walk in
Fangorn Forest with his friend, to which Treebeard says that he shall
be welcome with any Elf. Legolas admits that his friend in question
is not an Elf, but Gimli the dwarf. Treebeard is somewhat sceptical
of Gimli, because he is a) a dwarf and b) an axe-bearer, but when
Legolas explains that the axe is for orc-necks and that Gimli killed
42 orcs in the battle Treebeard gives his permission. (15)
Treebeard tells us that he has made a few new lines concerning
Hobbits to the Long List. He tells the Merry and Pippin to keep an
eye open for any sign of the Entwives and says that Saruman's heart
is as rotten as a black Huorn's. (16) That cannot be nice.
Treebeard promises Gandalf to re-flood Isengard and keep a permanent
watch over Saruman.
1) How does Merry now about the dangers of the loose slabs? Sounds
like
e - or Pippin - might have been close to having an accident...
2) Gimli argues that he and Legolas should go with Gandalf, because
they are the only ones of their kin, but so are Merry and Pippin. Why
do they not want to go? One would think that at least Merry would
want to go on behalf of all hobbits? Are they just too afraid of
Saruman? Why does not Gandalf offer them to go? Does he fear the
influence of Saruman's voice is stronger on the hobbits - perhaps
because they are simpler folk? But even if that is the case, they
must still be able to hear him from the bottom step...
3) I always found this paragraph somewhat strange. It sounds like
Wormtongue is answering the doorbell in some suburban house, where he
is just trying to avoid annoying sales-men. Surely, he must have some
idea who is standing in front of him.
4) How does Gimli see through the rhetoric? He does not strike me as
being particularly bright or anything? And why are we not told what
Legolas and Aragorn felt about the voice? Not to mention Merry and
Pippin.
I wonder whether the voice has different effects on different races,
just like the Ring apparently has less of an effect on Hobbits than
on Humans.
5) Why did Saruman pretend that he only knew the names of Gandalf and
Théoden? It has already been made clear to our heroes, that
Wormtongue - who knew about all the members of the company - is in
the tower and would of course have told Saruman of his encounter with
the travellers in the hall of Théoden .
6) How come Théoden is able to resist Saruman's voice? One would
think that he was prone to being convinced, since Wormtongue was able
to manipulate him so effectively and Saruman is a lot more powerful
than Wormtongue.
7) A gibbet? That I the first time we hear of such things in LotR
IIRC. Seems like someone must have been executing people that way -
and apparently not just the bad guys. Do we hear of civilized people
using executions anywhere else in the books?
8) It does not seem like Saruman is very surprised by Gandalf's
presence, though he must have thought that he was dead. And if he did
not, then he does not really show any signs of wondering why
Gandalf's appearance has changed.
9) How do we know what Théoden felt? Should he have told Merry
"Hey, for a moment there, I thought we were screwed!"
10) Why seven? Is it just a random number or does it refer to
anything? I thought about the 7 rings for the dwarf-lords, but why
would Saruman refer to that?
11) This could turn out as a discussion of the movie-ism... The power
of the staff is evidently much different in the movies than in the
book. Apparently, you cannot just replace the staff with a new one in
the book. So what is the power of the staffs? It seems like it is not
only a matter of prestige, but that they hold actual powers, which is
why Gandalf should desire to own all five. They must have different
powers then? Or what do you think?
Oh. and we could also start a lengthy discussion about the three other
Wizards.
12) Where does Gandalf get authority to do this? You would think that
things like these cannot be so easily decided by just one member of
the order.
13) Why didn't Wormtongue, who must have been in Orthanc for a while,
know what the item was? It cannot have been hidden from him or
anything, since he could get to it so easily and one would think,
that Saruman must have used it quite often.
14) I wonder whether Gandalf stresses this to make sure that everybody
understood that what Saruman said about his motives was untrue.
15) Why is there reason for Treebeard to dislike Gimli, just because
he is a dwarf? I know that dwarfs are not exactly portrayed as
tree-hugging wild life enthusiasts, but more like miners, who would
not really have anything to do with the forests. So how come
Treebeard has such a bad impression of dwarfs?
16) I had to leave all my Tolkien books except LOTR back home in
Denmark, so I cannot check whether we learn anything about black
Huorns anywhere else. UT perhaps?
17) How could PJ leave out most of this great chapter? There is so
much tension in this chapter, but perhaps not enough action for PJ?
Could have been done in very few minutes though - minutes, where you
could have had a stand-off between the two wizards that would have
been so much cooler than the stupid wrestling scene in FOTR.
18) I know that Tolkien disapproved of all interpretations of his
work as an analogy of modern issues, but I can't help thinking about
whether Saruman's demagogical rhetorical style was inspired by some
politician of Tolkien's time. Saruman's style is too subtle to be
inspired by Goebbels, Hitler or Mussolini, but do you have any other
suggestions? (Slightly OT I know, but as a student of political
science and international relations I can't help thinking of these
things)
"The treacherous are ever distrustful."
"So would the trapped wolf speak to the hounds, if he could."
where apparently it still is not a given to provide students
residences with an Internet connection I have been unable to follow
the discussions properly since New Years. Therefore, I might be
touching on some points that have already been discussed. For that
I'm sorry, but I simply don't have time to start going through the
google archives to read all the discussions to each and every chapter.
Since I have now been transferred from Dublin to Warsaw, I have
arrived at a place where things such as an Internet connection is a
lot easier to get hold of than in Dublin, so from now on I should be
able to participate properly in discussions. Beginning this week with
my favourite chapter: The Voice of Saruman.
The chapter starts by a description of Isengard after the water has
subsided, showing how polluted the entire site must have been.
Merry - in nice hobbit fashion - tells Gandalf, that he feels less
ill-disposed towards Saruman now that he (Merry) has had the chance
to eat, drink and smoke from Saruman's storeroom. (1) Gandalf says
that his opinion of Saruman has not changed and that he must have a
last meeting with him.
Gandalf warns Pippin and Gimli about the dangers of Saruman - they are
advised to be aware of Saruman's voice.
Gandalf, Éomer, Théoden , Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli walk the stairs
of Orthanc to speak to Saruman, while Merry and Pippin are left at
the bottom step. (2)
Wormtongue asks from a window who it is and what they want. (3)
Gandalf demands to speak to Saruman. Then follows a description of
the magical properties of Saruman's voice. Its powerful effects are
described quite vividly, and no one could remain unmoved by it.
Saruman mentions that he knows at least two of the names of the
people on his doorstep: Théoden and Gandalf. He addresses Théoden
first, trying to convince him, that Saruman is the only one who can
help him now and that the former white wizard does not hold a grudge,
even though so much harm has been done to him. We learn that most of
the men in the army started believing Saruman's words, but that Gimli
sees through the rhetoric. (4) At this point Saruman reveals that he
knows the name - and ancestry - of Gimli as well. (5)
Éomer starts talking, when Théoden remains silent, in order to
counter the influence of the voice on hi master, just to be mocked by
Saruman: "Slay whom your lord names as enemies, and be content.
Meddle not in policies which you do not understand." Saying that only
kings understand Realpolitk, where power is more important than
friendship. Again, Saruman reveals that he knew the name of Éomer all
the way long.
Saruman then makes an interesting point: that he cannot be called a
murderer, just because some men died in a battle, that Saruman claims
he did not desire. If that were the case, then all great kings of
Rohan would be murderers too. He then offers peace to Théoden, who
rejects if after a few seconds of silence, saying that he will have
piece once Saruman hangs from a gibbet. (6) (7)
After this refusal, Saruman mocks Rohan and her equestrians, just to
address Gandalf beginning with a few compliments. (8) His way of
talking to Gandalf is masterfully described as the way a kindly king
would talk to "an erring, but much loved minister." Saruman offers,
that he and Gandalf should join forces for their common good and
ignore the lesser folk. Apparently, all the people listening, even
Théoden, feared that Gandalf would accept the offer and leave them to
whatever destiny the wise might decide for them. (9)
Gandalf just laughs at the offer, and after ridiculing Saruman he
offers him to come down and leave Orthanc as a free man, but with out
his staff and with out the key to Orthanc.
Saruman turns this offer into a powerful attack on Gandalf,
suggesting that all Gandalf wants is more power for himself and that
Gandalf will not be satisfied until he owns the crowns of seven kings
(10) and the rods of the Five Wizards. (11) After this rant, he turns
to leave, but Gandalf orders him to stay and Saruman obeys.
Gandalf rebukes Saruman for his pride and then declares himself as
Gandalf the White and casts Saruman from the order and the Council,
breaking Saruman 's staff with a spell. (12)
Saruman leaves the balcony and at the same time, Wormtounge threw a
large shiny ball out of the window. (13) Pippin picks up the item,
but Gandalf quickly takes it from him, hiding it in his cloak, while
suggesting that it was an item of great importance.
They descend the stairs and are saluted by the host. The spell of
Saruman's voice is broken after they have seen him obey Gandalf.
Merry asks whether there could have been a different outcome to the
debate and Gandalf answers that it would not be likely, but that he
had to try for several reasons. Saruman could still have been of
value if he had mended his ways. Gandalf says that he does not wish
for mastery. (14)
Treebeard approaches and Gandalf introduces him to Aragorn, Gimli and
Legolas. Legolas is of interest to the Ent, since he is an Elf and
from Mirkwood. Legolas then asks politely for permission to walk in
Fangorn Forest with his friend, to which Treebeard says that he shall
be welcome with any Elf. Legolas admits that his friend in question
is not an Elf, but Gimli the dwarf. Treebeard is somewhat sceptical
of Gimli, because he is a) a dwarf and b) an axe-bearer, but when
Legolas explains that the axe is for orc-necks and that Gimli killed
42 orcs in the battle Treebeard gives his permission. (15)
Treebeard tells us that he has made a few new lines concerning
Hobbits to the Long List. He tells the Merry and Pippin to keep an
eye open for any sign of the Entwives and says that Saruman's heart
is as rotten as a black Huorn's. (16) That cannot be nice.
Treebeard promises Gandalf to re-flood Isengard and keep a permanent
watch over Saruman.
1) How does Merry now about the dangers of the loose slabs? Sounds
like
e - or Pippin - might have been close to having an accident...
2) Gimli argues that he and Legolas should go with Gandalf, because
they are the only ones of their kin, but so are Merry and Pippin. Why
do they not want to go? One would think that at least Merry would
want to go on behalf of all hobbits? Are they just too afraid of
Saruman? Why does not Gandalf offer them to go? Does he fear the
influence of Saruman's voice is stronger on the hobbits - perhaps
because they are simpler folk? But even if that is the case, they
must still be able to hear him from the bottom step...
3) I always found this paragraph somewhat strange. It sounds like
Wormtongue is answering the doorbell in some suburban house, where he
is just trying to avoid annoying sales-men. Surely, he must have some
idea who is standing in front of him.
4) How does Gimli see through the rhetoric? He does not strike me as
being particularly bright or anything? And why are we not told what
Legolas and Aragorn felt about the voice? Not to mention Merry and
Pippin.
I wonder whether the voice has different effects on different races,
just like the Ring apparently has less of an effect on Hobbits than
on Humans.
5) Why did Saruman pretend that he only knew the names of Gandalf and
Théoden? It has already been made clear to our heroes, that
Wormtongue - who knew about all the members of the company - is in
the tower and would of course have told Saruman of his encounter with
the travellers in the hall of Théoden .
6) How come Théoden is able to resist Saruman's voice? One would
think that he was prone to being convinced, since Wormtongue was able
to manipulate him so effectively and Saruman is a lot more powerful
than Wormtongue.
7) A gibbet? That I the first time we hear of such things in LotR
IIRC. Seems like someone must have been executing people that way -
and apparently not just the bad guys. Do we hear of civilized people
using executions anywhere else in the books?
8) It does not seem like Saruman is very surprised by Gandalf's
presence, though he must have thought that he was dead. And if he did
not, then he does not really show any signs of wondering why
Gandalf's appearance has changed.
9) How do we know what Théoden felt? Should he have told Merry
"Hey, for a moment there, I thought we were screwed!"
10) Why seven? Is it just a random number or does it refer to
anything? I thought about the 7 rings for the dwarf-lords, but why
would Saruman refer to that?
11) This could turn out as a discussion of the movie-ism... The power
of the staff is evidently much different in the movies than in the
book. Apparently, you cannot just replace the staff with a new one in
the book. So what is the power of the staffs? It seems like it is not
only a matter of prestige, but that they hold actual powers, which is
why Gandalf should desire to own all five. They must have different
powers then? Or what do you think?
Oh. and we could also start a lengthy discussion about the three other
Wizards.
12) Where does Gandalf get authority to do this? You would think that
things like these cannot be so easily decided by just one member of
the order.
13) Why didn't Wormtongue, who must have been in Orthanc for a while,
know what the item was? It cannot have been hidden from him or
anything, since he could get to it so easily and one would think,
that Saruman must have used it quite often.
14) I wonder whether Gandalf stresses this to make sure that everybody
understood that what Saruman said about his motives was untrue.
15) Why is there reason for Treebeard to dislike Gimli, just because
he is a dwarf? I know that dwarfs are not exactly portrayed as
tree-hugging wild life enthusiasts, but more like miners, who would
not really have anything to do with the forests. So how come
Treebeard has such a bad impression of dwarfs?
16) I had to leave all my Tolkien books except LOTR back home in
Denmark, so I cannot check whether we learn anything about black
Huorns anywhere else. UT perhaps?
17) How could PJ leave out most of this great chapter? There is so
much tension in this chapter, but perhaps not enough action for PJ?
Could have been done in very few minutes though - minutes, where you
could have had a stand-off between the two wizards that would have
been so much cooler than the stupid wrestling scene in FOTR.
18) I know that Tolkien disapproved of all interpretations of his
work as an analogy of modern issues, but I can't help thinking about
whether Saruman's demagogical rhetorical style was inspired by some
politician of Tolkien's time. Saruman's style is too subtle to be
inspired by Goebbels, Hitler or Mussolini, but do you have any other
suggestions? (Slightly OT I know, but as a student of political
science and international relations I can't help thinking of these
things)
"The treacherous are ever distrustful."
"So would the trapped wolf speak to the hounds, if he could."