[slim] Game On: Sonos has an iPhone app

[Sike]

http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/28/sonos-controller-for-iphone-and-software-2-7-bring-last-fm-inte/


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[gbruzzo]

The Sonos system interfaces with more applications/services than
Slimdevices it seems

available on both platforms:

iPhone app
Pandora (US only)
Last.fm
Rhapsody
SIRIUS Internet Radio

NOT available on Slimdevices

Napster

The lack of Napster access (or access to an equivalent service for UK
and continental Europe) is a very weak point. The world consists of not
only the US, you know - although some may think and act thus.

regards,

Giacomo


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[Paul Webster]

Demo video - showing it off very well
http://www.sonos.com/whattobuy/controllers/iphone/default.aspx


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[ds2021]

Sike;354210 Wrote:
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/28/sonos-controller-for-iphone-and-software-2-7-bring-last-fm-inte/

This is actually the fourth of the available iphone/itouch apps for the
Sonos system. This one, however, was put out by Sonos themselves in what
I think is a fairly smart move.

Although, there is a clear trade-off between increasing system appeal
and cannibalizing controller sales, I wish the Slim Devices team would
have considered the same.</jealousy>


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[EnochLight]

Yeah the fact that this one is officially put out by Sonos and does
*EVERYTHING* that their controller does - that's just simply fantastic.
Well played Sonos - well played...

I mean for those who don't own or plan to own an iPhone or iPod Touch
then the controller will be an option, but taking into consideration
that users of network music players tend to be very technically savvy
lends one to believe that the same demographic tends to own iPods and
iPhones.

That said, I'm slightly biased. I have an iPhone and would love an
officially sanctioned iPhone/iPod Touch app for SqueezeCenter!

'Gizmodo's Sonos article'
(http://gizmodo.com/5069681/sonos-audio-system-brings-controller-app-to-iphone-firmware-27-update-with-lastfm-and-15000%252B-radio-stations)


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[pippin]

EnochLight;354233 Wrote:
>
> That said, I'm slightly biased. I have an iPhone and would love an
> officially sanctioned iPhone/iPod Touch app for SqueezeCenter!
>

Why does it have to be officially sanctioned?
Maybe it's enough if it's good?


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[ds2021]

pippin;354239 Wrote:
> Why does it have to be officially sanctioned?
> Maybe it's enough if it's good?

Absolutely. I will be more than glad to pay for a good third party app.
Hint hint.


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[benhaines]

I too have an iPhone and would love a native app for SqueezeCenter.

Question then is how does it differentiate itself from the Squeezebox
Controller!? Certainly a good way of selling more more receivers :)


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[ds2021]

You can try Pippin's iPeng plugin to witness the potential for
differentiation. It is significant.

For me, iPeng's simultaneous multi-player control is a revolutionary
improvement. In my experience, this is necessary.


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[jaffacake]

pippin;354239 Wrote:
> Why does it have to be officially sanctioned?
> Maybe it's enough if it's good?

I don't think it has to be, but there are advantages.

In the case of Sonos, having an official application helps to maintain
feature equivalence between controller options. There were some 3rd
party options, but they were unable to surface all the of the 3rd party
music services like Napster and Rhapsody or browse using Album Art like
the official application does.

Even if they did, on the day of the release of Sonos 2.7 they wouldn't
have supported any of the new additions like last.fm and Radiotime with
it's podcasts etc. This would have meant that 3rd party application
users had to wait for the developer to get up to speed on the new
functions and then write/test new code. This can all take time, during
which the iPod owner would be missing core functions.

As it is, Sonos delivered a new iPhone application on the day of
release of 2.7. Going forward there will be concurrent releases and
feature equivalence meaning a Sonos owner can invest in an Apple
controller with the reassurance that it will always support all the
newer features going forward. You just couldn't get that with a 3rd
party plug-in that's not even guaranteed to have another release.


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[chinablues]

EnochLight;354233 Wrote:
> ,,,,,,, but taking into consideration that users of network music
> players tend to be very technically savvy lends one to believe that the
> same demographic tends to own iPods and iPhones.
>
>
> 'Gizmodo's Sonos article'
> (http://gizmodo.com/5069681/sonos-audio-system-brings-controller-app-to-iphone-firmware-27-update-with-lastfm-and-15000%252B-radio-stations)

Holy Crow! by implication: iPud owners are 'technically savvy'??? Give
me a break. I have yet to find one that knows what a FLAC is. 'Oh, you
mean it might not fit if its 40MB'. Audiophiles they ain't. And OK,
I've had my wrists slapped upon entering the audiophile forum and I
agree for some hi bit rate MP3's, I for one cannot tell the difference
(especially with my cloth ears). But your 'run of the mill' Ipud
player isn't into audio quality imho..and neither are they technically
savvy..

(of course, by definition; excepting all those posting and reading
here...)

Dan :-)


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[tamanaco]

I think folks at SD and independent developers tried going down a
similar road a while ago, but found themselves with the restrictions
inherent of multipurpose mobile devices, such as PDAs. I find this
iPhone Controller app "cute", but not a "real" solution as a "remote"
for home use. With the current generation of WiFi chips (including the
one in the iPhone) maintaining WiFi connection for prolonged periods is
an easy way to quickly drain the phone battery. Not to mention that
using the phone for both receiving calls and as a remote is very
inconvenient. Imagine the mistress calling you while your wife is using
your iPhone as a Sonos remote. The SD Controller, on the other hand, was
designed from the ground up as a "dedicated" WiFi home remote with a
large rechargeable battery and cradle to address the WiFi power
consumption issues. Not a jack of all trades, but a master of the SC
Server domain.

What I would like to see in the future from SD/Logitech is SqueezePlay
ported for use in Smartphones/iPhones, but as mobile "player" not
necessarily as a home remote. (It can work as a remote if you sync it
another player at home) With the current generation of 3G phones
streaming media from the Internet in large metropolitan areas is a
piece of cake. I currently use my Smartphone with PocketPlayer to
stream internet radio stations either via AT&T 3G network or via WiFi.
Using PocketPlayer WebGuide I tune to Shoutcast Radio station when I'm
at work or when I'm on the road in a hotel room. One thing, you need to
make sure... is that you get a Smartphone with separated headphone jack
so that you can use your charger and headphones simultaneously when
listening for prolonged periods. (I tried using Bluetooth stereo
headphones, but it was inconvenient and unreliable ) If I had
SqueezePlay for Smartphone with SSH tunneling like Softsqueeze I'd be a
happy camper. With such a client I'd be able to stream music to my
Smartphone from my Music Library in my SC server at home and Internet
radio and services via the SqueezeNetwork. I tried using the SC
/Handheld Web interface via PIE with PocketPuTTY as an SSH client, but
I could not get it to work. I still have not fond a working/reliable
SSH tunneling client for Smartphones. Any one out there using a
Smartphone as a remote player to a SC server?


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[ds2021]

tamanaco;354250 Wrote:
> I think folks at SD and independent developers tried going down a
> similar road a while ago, but found themselves with the restrictions
> inherent of multipurpose mobile devices, such as PDAs. I find this
> iPhone Controller app "cute", but not a "real" solution as a "remote"
> for home use. With the current generation of WiFi chips (including the
> one in the iPhone) maintaining WiFi connection for prolonged periods is
> an easy way to quickly drain the phone battery. Not to mention that
> using the phone for both receiving calls and as a remote is very
> inconvenient. Imagine the mistress calling you while your wife is using
> your iPhone as a Sonos remote. The SD Controller, on the other hand, was
> designed from the ground up as a "dedicated" WiFi home remote with a
> large rechargeable battery and cradle to address the WiFi power
> consumption issues. Not a jack of all trades, but a master of the SC
> Server domain.

Have to disagree. I see iPeng as a superior interface for control of
music and especially multiple players. I see the iPhone as superior
hardware to the Controller, with its larger screen with multi-touch,
better battery life, and better processing capacity. The wi-fi battery
drain issues you refer to apply to any device, including the
Controller, and my experience is that the battery life on the iPhone
(being used not only to control music, but as a phone and internet
tablet as well) is superior to the Controller. I am eager to try a
native app.

Some will clearly prefer the Controller to a multi-purpose handheld
device. That is fine, and I hope the Controller suits the needs of
those people. My experience has been, mistress aside, that I prefer
iPeng to my Controller but lament the latency issues inherent to a web
interface.


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[tamanaco]

ds2021;354262 Wrote:
> Have to disagree. I see iPeng as a superior interface for control of
> music and especially multiple players. I see the iPhone as superior
> hardware to the Controller, with its larger screen with multi-touch,
> better battery life, and better processing capacity. The wi-fi battery
> drain issues you refer to apply to any device, including the
> Controller, and my experience is that the battery life on the iPhone
> (being used not only to control music, but as a phone and internet
> tablet as well) is superior to the Controller. I am eager to try a
> native app.

I'm glad you're happy with iPeng. I have to assume that you're the only
person that uses your iPhone as a remote. As "home" remote a "personal"
multipurpose device on the hands of others is an accident wating to
happen. As a "personal" remote the iPhone with iPeng is fine. I assume
that you keep your phone on at all times to receive calls. This means
that you have to connect to the WiFi and Cell network simultaneously
to take full advantage of the iPhone as a remote. This connections
along with the large touch screen will drain the iPhone battery a lot
faster than the battery of a standalone SBC. My experiences using
multiple purpose devices as "home" remotes have not been uplifting.
That is the reason I mentioned in my post that using a
Smartphone/iPhone as "remote" mobile "player" made a lot more sense.
Again, if you want to use a Smartphone/iPhone as a remote, synching it
to a local or a remote hardware player using SqueezePlay would cover
the "remote" aspects when you're home or away.



ds2021;354262 Wrote:
> Some will clearly prefer the Controller to a multi-purpose handheld
> device. That is fine, and I hope the Controller suits the needs of
> those people. My experience has been, mistress aside, that I prefer
> iPeng to my Controller but lament the latency issues inherent to a web
> interface.

The Controller is a "dedicated" remote with "optional" muscic playing
capabilities. I dare to say that the iPhone is a excellent music player
with "optional" remote capabilities. I believe that CLI based
SqueezePlay on multi-platforms is the way to go... but to each its own.


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[ds2021]

tamanaco;354289 Wrote:
> I have to assume that you're the only person that uses your iPhone as a
> remote.

That is an odd assumption.

tamanaco;354289 Wrote:
> I assume that you keep your phone on at all times to receive calls. This
> means that you have to connect to the WiFi and Cell network
> simultaneously to take full advantage of the iPhone as a remote. This
> connections along with the large touch screen will drain the iPhone
> battery a lot faster than the battery of a standalone SBC.

That has not been my experience. I have not done my own objective
tests, but my subjective experience is that the iPhone lasts much, much
longer. 'Pippin's objective power consumption tests'
(http://penguinlovesmusic.de/?p=65) with the addition of streaming
music dramatically outpace anything my controller is capable of. That
test is much more demanding than typical use, in which auto-lock is on,
no streaming takes place, and phone and remote use is intermittent.

In defence of the controller, I believe that it tends to keep the wi-fi
connection active for longer than the iPhone. This is evidenced by the
immediate response to track control and volume adjustment. However, I
would prefer the wait of a few seconds (literally) in the name of
longer battery life.


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[tamanaco]

ds2021;354302 Wrote:
> That is an odd assumption.

Why is it odd?... I don't let anyone near my Smartphone. I have
"personal" data stored there. Looking at my browsing history, you'll
also find out the web sites I have visited (Including financial
institution sites) I also use my Smartphone for business and personal
email. Again, I don't want my wife or anyone else to find the emails
from my mistress. Do you have an iPhone dedicated to iPeng?


ds2021;354302 Wrote:
>
> That has not been my experience. I have not done my own objective
> tests, but my subjective experience is that the iPhone lasts much, much
> longer. 'Pippin's objective power consumption tests'
> (http://penguinlovesmusic.de/?p=65) - with the addition of streaming
> music - dramatically outpace anything my controller is capable of. That
> test is much more demanding than typical use, in which auto-lock is on,
> no streaming takes place, and phone and remote use is intermittent.
>
> In defence of the controller, I believe that it tends to keep the wi-fi
> connection active for longer than the iPhone. This is evidenced by the
> immediate response to track control and volume adjustment. However, I
> would prefer the wait of a few seconds (literally) in the name of
> longer battery life. Of course, eventually the Controller shuts down
> wi-fi as well, in which case delays are comparable.

Again, I'm going to assume that you use the iPhone for "other"
functions other than just as a remote. Do you talk on the phone for
prolonged periods of time? Do you get a lot of calls? I do. Talking on
the phone drains the battery. In my case they're are not comparable...
my Smartphone is "always on" and most likely on my person to
receive/send calls, messages and emails. The SBC is in its cradle most
of the time. My wife is going to use the controller and not bother me
while I'm hiding in the bathroom talking, messaging or emailing my
mistress. Maybe we have different philosophies as it relates to the use
of cell phones. Maybe your cell phone is more of a communal device... my
remote is communal... my Smartphone is not.


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[ds2021]

tamanaco;354313 Wrote:
> Why is it odd?... I don't let anyone near my Smartphone.

Ok, I understand what you mean now. I am not as protective of my phone,
actually encouraging my wife to use it on certain occasions. She does
not have any interest in using it or my Controller as a remote
however.

tamanaco;354313 Wrote:
> Maybe we have different philosophies as it relates to the use of cell
> phones.

Yes, I think it boils down to this. The introduction of a mistress
would likely push me towards an ipod touch for use as a remote however.


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[tamanaco]

ds2021;354317 Wrote:
>
> Yes, I think it boils down to this. The introduction of a mistress
> would likely push me towards an ipod touch for use as a remote however.

Sounds like plan... Now let me ask you... Can you access your SC server
remotely via the Internet with your iPhone using iPeng?... If so, how? I
want to access my SC server via my Smartphone "securely". I also looked
for SSH clients for the iPhone and I could not locate one... do you
know if such a client exist for the iPhone... Thanks


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[Dave Dewey]

Quoting tamanaco (tamanaco.3i06vn1225218302-NUepA2SMhDQqspMVqqL2D+4xXEVPTSb/***@public.gmane.org):

>
> ds2021;354317 Wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I think it boils down to this. The introduction of a mistress
> > would likely push me towards an ipod touch for use as a remote however.
>
> Sounds like plan... Now let me ask you... Can you access your SC server
> remotely via the Internet with your iPhone using iPeng?... If so, how? I
> want to access my SC server via my Smartphone "securely". I also looked
> for SSH clients for the iPhone and I could not locate one... do you
> know if such a client exist for the iPhone... Thanks

Short answer, yes... you can open SC up to the internet and put a
password on it, alternatively with additional layers of ip-based
authentication. You can use VPN.

There are a bunch of ssh clients for the iphone available in the
AppStore. I have 3 or 4 installed.

[ds2021]

tamanaco;354323 Wrote:
> Sounds like plan... Now let me ask you... Can you access your SC server
> remotely via the Internet with your iPhone using iPeng?... If so, how?
> I want to access my SC server via my Smartphone "securely". I also
> looked for SSH clients for the iPhone and I could not locate one... do
> you know if such a client exist for the iPhone... Thanks

I have set up DYNDNS (one of several dynamic dns services available)
and port forwarding to allow me to do so. To do it, I would go to
http://user.dyndns.com:port. This on its own likely does not constitute
secure. You can password protect SqueezeCenter, but I am not sure that
even that is the height of security.

The above accesses SC. If I wanted to access the server itself, I might
use one of the available VNC or SSH clients that are able for the
iphone/touch (iSSH, Jaadu, or Mohca). If you have iTunes, you can go to
the app-store and look at these.


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[tamanaco]

ds2021;354335 Wrote:
> I have set up DYNDNS (one of several dynamic dns services available) and
> my router's port forwarding to allow me to do so. To do it, I would go
> to _http://user.dyndns.com:port/ipeng_. This on its own likely does not
> constitute secure. You can password protect SqueezeCenter, but I am not
> sure that even that is the height of security.
>
> The above accesses SC. If I wanted to access the server itself, I might
> use one of the available VNC or SSH clients that are able for the
> iphone/touch (iSSH, Jaadu, or Mohca). If you have iTunes, you can go to
> the app-store and look at these.

I also use DynDNS and No-ip in conjuntion with Bitvise WinSSHD to
securely connect to my SC server using SoftSqueeze with SSH when I'm
using a remote desktop. I also use Bitvise Tunnelier to access the
server via Remote Desktop . With my old PDA with WiFi I can connect
using PocketPuTTY and PIE to the /Handheld Web UI but with that setup
the PDA can only browse SC it can not act as a player. I'm impressed...
there are that many SSH clients for the iPhone. I've been concentrating
on free SSH clients for the Smartphone I might have to start looking
for a commercial client.


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[pippin]

One thing: I did NOT succeed in using SSH with iPeng with a
non-jailbroken phone since you cannot have background processes.
What DOES work (although it's more complicated) though, is using a VPN,
e.g. with IPSec.


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[EnochLight]

pippin;354239 Wrote:
> Why does it have to be officially sanctioned?
> Maybe it's enough if it's good?

An officially sanctioned app tends to have all of the functionality or
bells and whistles. That said, if a 3rd party developer (or forum
member) can come up with a worthy offering, I'd happily slap my $9.99
USD down for it on the iTunes App store. Or take it free... as the the
Sonos offering came about.

ds2021;354245 Wrote:
> You can try Pippin's iPeng plugin to witness the potential for
> differentiation. It is significant.
>
> For me, iPeng's simultaneous multi-player control is a revolutionary
> improvement. In my experience, this is necessary.

As soon as Pippin distributes the iPeng plugin as an official app via
the iTunes App store, I'd be happy to. In the meantime, I'd rather not
have to jailbreak my iPhone.

tamanaco;354250 Wrote:
> ...I find this iPhone Controller app "cute", but not a "real" solution
> as a "remote" for home use. With the current generation of WiFi chips
> (including the one in the iPhone) maintaining WiFi connection for
> prolonged periods is an easy way to quickly drain the phone battery.
> Not to mention that using the phone for both receiving calls and as a
> remote is very inconvenient. ....

This argument is simply ridiculous. I carry my iPhone in my pocket
with me at all times. To be able to take it out at any time anywhere
in the house and access SqueezeCenter and all of my Squeezeboxes would
be far from "cute". It would be freak'n kick arse.

Battery life and the WiFi chip used in the iPhone has never been a
problem for my use on my home network. I come home, it hops on the
network when I wake it up from standby - ironically alot *FASTER* than
my Duet's Controller if it's sitting in sleep mode off of the charger.
It lasts throughout the day/night.

Do you even own an iPhone/iPod Touch?

At any rate, the person that this setup would appeal to would find it
incredibly useful and an excellent complement to the Controller. 99%
of the people out there don't walk around with a Controller in their
pocket. An iPhone on the other hand.... There have been a hundred
times when I left my SB playing in the livingroom and decided that I
wanted to turn it off or adjust the volume/track while in the basement.
Having left the Controller in the livingroom on the charger, I would
love to be able to launch an app on my iPhone (that resides in my
pocket) and go to town.

And as far as incoming calls - no worries - that's the beauty about
having a device that not only serves as cell phone but a gazillion
other things as well. Answer the call, finish the conversation, and
then resume jamming to your tunes. What's the big deal?

I can think of no reason why this isn't a good idea, aside from
Slim/Logitech worrying that it will take away from Controller sales -
in which case that's too bad...

...but Sonos did it... ;^p


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[autopilot]

Why cant Squeezeplay just be compiled for the iPhone?


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*Lounge :* Squeezebox Classic -> Cambridge Audio Azur 640a -> Mission
701's.
*Bedroom :* Squeezebox Receiver -> Trends TA10.1 Class-T -> Kef Cresta
1's
*Office :* Softsqueeze -> Logitech Active 5.1's.
*Kitchen :* Squeezebox Boom -coming soon-
*Roaming : * Squeezebox Controller -> Logitech mm28 portable speakers /
Shure E2c's
*Controllers :* Squeezebox Controller x 2 + Logitech Harmony one
*Server :* SC7.3b (Vista 64) + AlienBBC, iPlayer & MusicIP headless.

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[pippin]

autopilot;354495 Wrote:
> Why cant Squeezeplay just be compiled for the iPhone?

because it violates Apples license agreement.


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[autopilot]

pippin;354503 Wrote:
> because it violates Apples license agreement.

In what way exactly? Whats so different about Sonos? Or iSqueeze etc?


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[pippin]

autopilot;354540 Wrote:
> In what way exactly? Whats so different about Sonos? Or iSqueeze etc?

No LUA.
Also, just compiling will not give you a usable UI on iPhone.


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[amcluesent]

I see Linn has open-sourced their PDA controller s/w, but it's targeted
at Windows Mobile 6.

So it seems both Linn and Slimdevices are in need of an open-source
controller for Touch/iPhone...

Collaboration wouldn't be too weird, there is already SkweezyDs to
serve Linn streamers from the Squeezecenter.


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[tamanaco]

EnochLight;354479 Wrote:
>
> This argument is simply ridiculous. I carry my iPhone in my pocket
> with me at all times. To be able to take it out at any time anywhere
> in the house and access SqueezeCenter and all of my Squeezeboxes would
> be far from "cute". It would be freak'n kick arse.
>
> Battery life and the WiFi chip used in the iPhone has never been a
> problem for my use on my home network. I come home, it hops on the
> network when I wake it up from standby - ironically alot *FASTER* than
> my Duet's Controller if it's sitting in sleep mode off of the charger.
> It lasts throughout the day/night.
>
> Do you even own an iPhone/iPod Touch?
>
> At any rate, the person that this setup would appeal to would find it
> incredibly useful and an excellent complement to the Controller. 99%
> of the people out there don't walk around with a Controller in their
> pocket. An iPhone on the other hand.... There have been a hundred
> times when I left my SB playing in the livingroom and decided that I
> wanted to turn it off or adjust the volume/track while in the basement.
> Having left the Controller in the livingroom on the charger, I would
> love to be able to launch an app on my iPhone (that resides in my
> pocket) and go to town.
>
> And as far as incoming calls - no worries - that's the beauty about
> having a device that not only serves as cell phone but a gazillion
> other things as well. Answer the call, finish the conversation, and
> then resume jamming to your tunes. What's the big deal?
>
> I can think of no reason why this isn't a good idea, aside from
> Slim/Logitech worrying that it will take away from Controller sales -
> in which case that's too bad...
>
> ...but Sonos did it... ;^p

To begin, as a courtesy, I never call anyone else's argument
"ridiculous". I respect everyone's opinions. I state my case on my post
or reply and let the readers draw their own conclusion. I guess you did
not read my full argument. I said that the iPhone with iPeng or a
SqueezePlay derivative solution is "fine" as "personal" remote not as
"home" remote that everyone and their family and friends can use. I
don't know about you, but my Smartphone is too personal and not for
anyone else to use. Yes, the Sonos solution is a "cute" solution for
"one" user not practical for "home" use. If someone else in your
household is using your iPhone to create Playlist and you receive a
call from work that's going to keep you on the iPhone for an hour...
what's the person that was creating the playlist supposed to do in the
meantime?... I know... they should get their own iPhone. My nephew has
an iPhone on which we installed iPeng. We tested we liked, but he took
his iPhone with him. Btw, no one walks around with a "remote' in their
pocket because is not a multipurpose device it's always at home in the
vicinity of the AV system where "anyone" can use it. I have to assume
that your iPhone has either infinite battery life or you do not use it
for long calls, you do not receive many calls and you do not fully take
advantage of all its other multimedia capabilities on an ongoing basis.
I just got an Samsung Epix for work and personal use because it comes
with 18000 mAh battery. I'm giving up a couple bells and whistles, but
since I use my Smartphone to make a lot of business calls and send a
lot MMS messages with pictures it was the most sensible way for me to
go. Battery life is the Achilles heel of all these mobile devices if
you use them for prolonged periods of time... No one can argue that.
The iPhone 3G comes with just a 1200 mAh battery... with the way I use
my Smartphone that battery would barely last me a day. I know I can get
a Mobile Power Pack... but who wants to carry that. At the end of the
day I'd have to recharge it and would not be able to have it in my
pocket while I walk around my house to use it as a remote. I guess the
folks that see the Sonos and iPeng solutions as very practical do not
use the other features of their iPhone on a "extensive" regular basis
and use their iPhone as a "personal" remote. When a Squeezeplay
derivative for Smartphones comes out, I'll use it, but as "personal"
player, remote and on a limited basis.


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[pippin]

You do realize, that there is also the iPod touch, don't you?
>From the feedback I get on iPeng I believe there are more people using
that one than the actual iPhone as a remote control.
And it can still play music, and let's you browse the internet in
bed...


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[Luke Redpath]

Guess I better hurry up and release iSqueeze...just got to iron out
those last few bugs. The Sonos app looks really nice and gives me a few
ideas for future iSqueeze versions.


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[pippin]

Luke Redpath;354571 Wrote:
> and gives me a few ideas for future iSqueeze versions.

Really?
Does it have anything iPeng (skin) doesn't?


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[jaffacake]

I think you guys could argue this point forever, you're all right and
all wrong at the same time...because there are 2 completely different
markets for this kind of product and you're arguing from both camps.

The first market are those who already own an iPhone or iPod touch.
They carry it all the time, especially in the case of the phone, and
it's a convenience to them if they can also control their music system
from this device. An official or unofficial solution is suited to this
market as they didn't buy the device for this purpose and any solution
(even if it wasn't fully functioned or didn't work particularly well)
is a bonus. Battery life, sharing the device etc. isn't a concern as
only they will use it and then only from time to time.

The second market comes from people who want a nice modern touchscreen
controller. As well as being "cool" the touch interface also adds
benefits in the form of an on-screen keyboard - ideal for artist/track
searches which aren't so easy on a scroll wheel. For these people, this
cool controller starts at $220 for a basic iPod Touch...it's a great
price. Not only that, it can also be used as a portable media player
with local music/video playback and it's a great little web browser.

Sonos CR100 controller? $399 - Squeezebox Controller $292.12
(amazon.com) - iPod Touch 8GB $219.94 (amazon.com)

It's obvious to see the attraction here, the iPod option is not only
touch screen, but it can save $$ over the price of the proprietary
controller option. People WILL buy them as dedicated controllers.
People WILL pass them around at parties and people WILL treat them like
any other controller.

You run the Sonos controller on an iPod touch and it works like the
CR100 controller only with a better screen and a touchscreen UI. You
put it on the coffee table, it goes to sleep. You pick it up, the Sonos
controller is still there when it wakes. No need to switch tasks, no
complications, no extra effort. You run that Sonos controller software
and keep it running and that's all it will ever be...the fact that it
has an Apple badge on the backside makes no difference to the end user.
You just use it, and charge it, like any other controller.


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[tamanaco]

jaffacake;354594 Wrote:
> I think you guys could argue this point forever, you're all right and
> all wrong at the same time...because there are 2 completely different
> markets for this kind of product and you're arguing from both camps.
>
> The first market are those who already own an iPhone or iPod touch.
> They carry it all the time, especially in the case of the phone, and
> it's a convenience to them if they can also control their music system
> from this device. An official or unofficial solution is suited to this
> market as they didn't buy the device for this purpose and any solution
> (even if it wasn't fully functioned or didn't work particularly well)
> is a bonus. Battery life, sharing the device etc. isn't a concern as
> only they will use it and then only from time to time.
>
> The second market comes from people who want a nice modern touchscreen
> controller. As well as being "cool" the touch interface also adds
> benefits in the form of an on-screen keyboard - ideal for artist/track
> searches which aren't so easy on a scroll wheel. For these people, this
> cool controller starts at $220 for a basic iPod Touch...it's a great
> price. Not only that, it can also be used as a portable media player
> with local music/video playback and it's a great little web browser.
>
> Sonos CR100 controller? $399 - Squeezebox Controller $292.12
> (amazon.com) - iPod Touch 8GB $219.94 (amazon.com)
>
> It's obvious to see the attraction here, the iPod option is not only
> touch screen, but it can save $$ over the price of the proprietary
> controller option. People WILL buy them as dedicated controllers.
> People WILL pass them around at parties and people WILL treat them like
> any other controller.
>
> You run the Sonos controller on an iPod touch and it works like the
> CR100 controller only with a better screen and a touchscreen UI. You
> put it on the coffee table, it goes to sleep. You pick it up, the Sonos
> controller is still there when it wakes. No need to switch tasks, no
> complications, no extra effort. You run that Sonos controller software
> and keep it running and that's all it will ever be...the fact that it
> has an Apple badge on the backside makes no difference to the end user.
> You just use it, and charge it, like any other controller.


Clarifying my points:

1. - Controller makes a better "home" remote for communal use. So does
the iPod Touch or any dedicated media player with a decent interface
and wifi.

2. - An iPhone Smartphone is a bit of overkill as a "home" remote if
you use its other functions on an ongoing basis for prolonged periods
of time. Battery life is more on an issue for mobile multi-use battery
powered devices that it is for single-use battery powered devices. It
might make a good "personal" remote, but not a good "home" remote.

3. - What I'm looking for is a good SSH client for my Smartphone or a
derivative of SqueezePlay with SHH for this platform so that I can
expand/widen its use as a stream media "player" to include my SC server
which at the same time would give me "personal" remote capabilities as
sync it with a hardware player at home


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[DaveWr]

jaffacake;354594 Wrote:
>
>
> The second market comes from people who want a nice modern touchscreen
> controller. As well as being "cool" the touch interface also adds
> benefits in the form of an on-screen keyboard - ideal for artist/track
> searches which aren't so easy on a scroll wheel. For these people, this
> cool controller starts at $220 for a basic iPod Touch...it's a great
> price. Not only that, it can also be used as a portable media player
> with local music/video playback and it's a great little web browser.
>
> Sonos CR100 controller? $399 - Squeezebox Controller $292.12
> (amazon.com) - iPod Touch 8GB $219.94 (amazon.com)
>
> It's obvious to see the attraction here, the iPod option is not only
> touch screen, but it can save $$ over the price of the proprietary
> controller option. People WILL buy them as dedicated controllers.
> People WILL pass them around at parties and people WILL treat them like
> any other controller.
>
>

I agree entirely. The SBC is interesting but does not yet perform as a
system remote. For that I utilise a Logitech Harmony One. I need it to
allow my family to control the whole TV / Sound System with ease. It
works on a state basis and is used to select from a range of simple
options (Listen to Music, Watch Film, Watch TV, etc....) Its a pity it
does not have WiFi to fully integrate the Squeezbox experience - and its
a relatively cheap touch screen + button device.

I think this would be a better prospect for Logitech / Slim long term.
The SBC is just too dedicated for it's price level.

The use of an iPod Touch as an additional controller is simple
(although until we have a fully localised application there are some
performance frustration issues). The price / performance ration is
likely to remain unbeatable.

I realise the views expressed are personal, there is no perfect
solution, bt the SBC role seems a little limited.

Just leaves one question Pippin - when's the native application
finished?

Regards

David


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[JJZolx]

The iPhone/Touch platform is one of the last areas where there's any
significant 3rd party development activity for Squeezebox. It would
seem rather dumb for Logitech to develop their own application when
developers in the community are willing to do so.


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[DaveWr]

Well lot's of the major developer's seemed to end up on the Slim
payroll. Also the excitement of LUA development doesn't seen to have
attracted many plug in developers.

Agree with your sentiment - it's up to Logitech / Slim - who want's to
earn the revenue?

I would be very happy with a native iPod App and a Logitech Harmony
derivative. I have a media lounge and the a whole house / garden to
cover.

Regards

David


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[Goodsounds]

JJZolx;354678 Wrote:
> The iPhone/Touch platform is one of the last areas where there's any
> significant 3rd party development activity for Squeezebox. It would
> seem rather dumb for Logitech to develop their own application when
> developers in the community are willing to do so.

Logitech sells hardware, and so will focus development on things to
enhance market acceptance, improve the user experience and eliminate
problems. The biggest bang for the buck is realized from enhancements
and changes that affect the greatest number of people.

The iphone/touch platform is only one group of dozens of devices that
can be used over wifi to control SB music. Having a native application
is likely of interest to only a small percentage of its owners since
browser access is always available.

Logitech will act rationally as a business, which means that it would
pursue any reason business opportunity. My bet is that developing a
native app for i-devices is unlikely to be a significant opportunity.
And, having one is unlikely to sell a significant number of additional
boxes.


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[peterw]

>From a business standpoint, this looks like a smart move for exactly one
reason: offloading costs & risks to Apple. The Sonos controller is
dated, big, clunky, and inferior to the Squeezebox Controller in pretty
much every respect. Rather than do the hard work of making better
hardware, they're leveraging Apple's design, manufacturing,
distribution, marketing, etc. Smart, though it makes me wonder if Sonos
is running out of ideas.

>From a UI standpoint, who cares? There was only one part of the demo
video that looked interesting, the concept of proportionately related
volume control for a group of synchronized players. Beyond that, I saw
nothing significant that isn't already in SqueezeCenter+SqueezePlay
7.2. It looks like early Controller firmware -- text-heavy, lots of
"missed opportunities". And it's an English-only app right now -- they
didn't even localize it? Is this just a market test, to see if they can
bail on making Rev 2 hardware and just use iPod Touch devices? If it
goes well, they'll start to flesh out the UI on this app?

Oh, and as cool as the iPod Touch/iPhone interface is (and I mean
Apple's basic UI, not the new Sonos app), it looks like a two-handed
UI. Probably better than the clunky old Sonos controller, but, unlike
the Squeezebox Controller, not usable with one hand. I'd definitely
install the Sonos app if I had an iPod Touch and Sonos gear (just as
I'd try iPeng), but even with this new software, Sonos doesn't have a
controller option that really competes with the Squeezebox Controller.


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[JJZolx]

peterw;354797 Wrote:
> From a business standpoint, this looks like a smart move for exactly one
> reason: offloading costs & risks to Apple. The Sonos controller is
> dated, big, clunky, and inferior to the Squeezebox Controller in pretty
> much every respect. Rather than do the hard work of making better
> hardware, they're leveraging Apple's design, manufacturing,
> distribution, marketing, etc. Smart, though it makes me wonder if Sonos
> is running out of ideas.

I think you're way out in left field if you think they've developed
that application simply so that they no longer have to develop and sell
their own controller. They seem to have simply created an application
that enables customers to use a very nice interface on a very popular
gadget.

> Is this just a market test, to see if they can bail on making Rev 2
> hardware and just use iPod Touch devices? If it goes well, they'll
> start to flesh out the UI on this app?

Again, this strikes me as a really strange take on a simple software
release.


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[jaffacake]

peterw;354797 Wrote:
> There was only one part of the demo video that looked interesting, the
> concept of proportionately related volume control for a group of
> synchronized players.

FYI - This has been a Sonos function since the day of release 4yrs ago
and is available from CR100, PC, Mac and now iPhone controllers.


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[gweempose]

JJZolx;354678 Wrote:
>
>
> It would seem rather dumb for Logitech to develop their own application
> when developers in the community are willing to do so.I think you missed the point that David was making. Logitech has a
unique opportunity on their hands to combine two of their existing
products into an even more attractive offering. A Harmony remote with
built-in Squeezebox control would be a very compelling product indeed.
In fact, I've been saying that Logitech should do this since the day
they bought Slim Devices.


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[tamanaco]

gweempose;354709 Wrote:
> I think you missed the point that David was making. Logitech has a
> unique opportunity on their hands to combine two of their existing
> products into an even more attractive offering. A Harmony remote with
> built-in Squeezebox control would be a very compelling product indeed.
> In fact, I've been saying that Logitech should do this since the day
> they bought Slim Devices. I happen to be a fan of URC remotes, but a
> Harmony/SBC combo would really have to make me think hard about my next
> remote purchase.

I subscribed to the Harmony Universal/Controller believers' club before
the Controller existed and Logitech came into the picture. Later, I even
remember asking if the Logitech Harmony developers could share some of
the available code (device specific IR codes) with the Logitech/SD
developers to use with the Controller but was told that this was not
possible. I forgot the exact reason given, but I think it had to do
with these codes not being in the public domain. Given that the
Controller has an IR port that has yet to be exploited it seemed like a
natural next step. The lack of a keypad in the controller limits this
evolution... ergonomically at least.


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[lanierb]

One reason they don't do it might be that it could undercut controller
sales. Not sure if that's it, but it's one reason for Logitech not to
do it.

Somehow the market has to sort all this out. It seems like what we
really need is an iPhone that has universal remote capability
(preferably via wifi not IR) including a native SB controller app, and
can stream Rhapsody locally, as well as many other things. The funny
thing is that this is all technologically easy but is currently blocked
either by old technologies (most media components still only accept IR
commands) or IP problems (Apple won't let anyone stream music to an
iPhone but them).


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[jaffacake]

lanierb;354775 Wrote:
> One reason they don't do it might be that it could undercut controller
> sales. Not sure if that's it, but it's one reason for Logitech not to
> do it.
>

Yes, it's inevitably going to change the sales demographic for Sonos.
People are likely to buy less controllers and also less of the bundles
containing controllers. Sales of CR100 controllers will undoubtedly
drop.

But this is a 4 year old product and Sonos have had very good mileage
out of it. All the R&D required to develop that original product was
huge. Back in 2004 the components within it were extremely expensive.
Prices of LCD screens, li-ion batteries and wifi components may have
dropped since, but back then they cost a fortune. Take off the cost of
shipping, packaging, dealer margins and tax off the price and it's
clear that it must have taken a considerable time for Sonos to see
return on the investment required in the controller development.

Things moved on considerably before the launch of the SB controller,
meaning it could be produced cheaper and some key components, like the
LCD display, are of a higher quality that the Sonos CR100 for a lower
retail price. Logitech also have the advantage of their extensive
consumer electronics manufacturing background and production facilities
in the far east.

But the SB controller is still new and I doubt any business model had
it producing a true return on investment in the 6 months or so since
it's launch this year. They will need to shift more units of this
product before introducing a free option for iPhone but, saying that, I
doubt it will be that long until they do as they can't afford to be that
far behind in the marketplace.


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[tamanaco]

I don't know... but I feel that a well designed "dedicated" hardware
remote is still a better solution to control any AV system than a
device that was not designed from the ground up to be a remote. The
Controller is not perfect, but is a good first attempt to control the
SC/SB system. From the beginning I felt that it needed a keypad or
touchscreen in addition to the scroll wheel to be a better remote.
Without either of these the potential for it to evolve into an
ergonomically efficient "Universal" remote is limited. The ability to
"quickly" enter letters to execute album/track searches or ability to
enter numbers to change channels won't be there. The Sonos app on an
iPhone/iPod Touch is not perfect either. Not only does it have be
connected to WiFi, but you have to "start" the Sonos application. What
if the iPhone fails to start the app? What if you have to reset/reboot
the iPhone? This is not not to say that the Controller won't face the
same issue, but the potential for crashes in a multipurpose/multiapp
device is a lot greater. I'm from the school of stand-alone components.
I don't want an integrated AV system or a multi-user "home" remote to be
tied up doing other things. I don't thing I'm the only one that feels
this way. So it is nice to know that there are choices out there for
those that don't feel this way.

I think Sonos sees the iPhone app as a compliment to their hardware
remote. Maybe this app is there to fill the gap before they release a
new and improved hardware remote. How many Sonos users own an iPhone?
How many iPhone user know/knew of Sonos? I see this Sonos app as a
strategy to "expose" iPhone/iPod Touch users to the Sonos. The Sonos
iPhone Controller is a free application. I doubt that Sonos introduced
it to cannibalized their hardware sales. Is more likely that they are
using it to introduce their hardware system to a big existing and
growing population of iPhone/iPod touch users.


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[amcluesent]

I'm beginning to think the SBR/SBC design was a mistake.

The lack of IR on the SBR is major nuisance for those of us with IR
based remotes like Pronto which work fine with SB3/TP.

And the SBC is too expensive for what it does (yes, even with 7.3
activation of the line-out).

I'm minded that the community of Touch/iPhone owners and music streamer
owners has a huge overlap. Having a controller app for the Touch/iPhone
is pretty much a 'hygiene factor' for any supplier now.


--
amcluesent
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[Jim Wald]

tamanaco;354910 Wrote:
>
> I think Sonos sees the iPhone app as a compliment to their hardware
> remote. Maybe this app is there to fill the gap before they release a
> new and improved hardware remote. How many Sonos users own an iPhone?
> How many iPhone user know/knew of Sonos? I see this Sonos app as a
> strategy to "expose" iPhone/iPod Touch users to the Sonos. The Sonos
> iPhone Controller is a free application. I doubt that Sonos introduced
> it to cannibalized their hardware sales. Is more likely that they are
> using it to introduce their hardware system to a big existing and
> growing population of iPhone/iPod touch users.

You are right. I am sure that Sonos sees their official FREE
iPhone/iTouch app as a way to encourage more sales of their hardware.
Sonos didn't develop their app because there wasn't a Sonos app on the
iPhone App Store. There were already THREE Sonos apps in the app store
(a $20 one called ZoneMaster, a free lite version of ZoneMaster, and a
$15 one called Zones). Yet Sonos created a FREE app that virtually
duplicates their hardware controller (probably to the chagrin of the
guys that developed the $15 and $20 apps).

And I am SURE Sonos didn’t introduce it to “cannibalize their hardware
sales”. I am also sure that most Sonos controllers are sold with the
purchase of a buyer’s first Sonos player. Likewise, I am sure that
most SBCs are sold with a buyer’s first Duet, rather than as a separate
purchase. There are ALREADY over 10 million iPhones out there, and who
knows how many iPod Touches, and that number is escalating every week.
Sonos sees the potential sales of lots of their players to all those
iPhone/iPod Touch owners as being a lot bigger that the potential sales
of ADDITIONAL Sonos controllers to their existing customers as being a
compelling business model.

As the owner of one SB2, two SB3’s, a SB Boom, and an iPhone (the
iPhone since the first week of July, 2007), and given the fact that I
ALWAYS have the iPhone in my shirt pocket, I would be the first to
encourage SD and Logitech to follow Sonos’ lead and develop a free
iPhone app for the App Store that duplicates the functionality of the
SBC, for both existing customers and for the same marketing reasons
that led Sonos to create a free app (even though, as I said, there were
already three Sonos apps in the App Store). With 10-20 million
iPhone/iPod Touch users out there, I can’t be the only one that has
both an iPhone or iPod Touch AND a Squeezebox.


--
Jim Wald
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[andynormancx]

tamanaco;354910 Wrote:
> The Sonos app on an iPhone/iPod Touch is not perfect either. Not only
> does it have be connected to WiFi, but you have to "start" the Sonos
> application. What if the iPhone fails to start the app? What if you
> have to reset/reboot the iPhone? This is not not to say that the
> Controller won't face the same issue, but the potential for crashes in
> a multipurpose/multiapp device is a lot greater.
Well written iPhone apps start up in under a second. The iPhone
reconnects to wifi faster than the Controller does. There is also no
issue with the iPhone having to wake up from suspend, like the
Controller has to when it has been idle for more than an hour.

At the same time the iPhone's battery life is better, while giving near
instant wifi reconnection and app startup.

A well written iPhone app is going to equal or beat the Controller in
most areas:

- it should be just as responsive
- the UI has the potential to be easier to use (the flick to scroll
approach to navigating lists on the iPhone works better than the
Controller's wheel and the iPhone can also have its handy "jump to the
initial letter" navigation)
- text entry will be far, far faster
- it reconnects to the network faster
- it never has to wake from suspend
- its battery life is better

Where the iPhone will lose out is the lack of hardware buttons for
volume and playback control. Picking up the Controller to adjust the
volume or pause will be a fair bit quicker than the iPhone app,
assuming the Controller isn't suspended of course.


--
andynormancx

Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ?
I SAID ALL OF THEM !
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[Michael Herger]

> A well written iPhone app is going to equal or beat the Controller in
> most areas:

I fully agree. But then we still have to see it happen ;-).

--

Michael

[pippin]

mherger;355242 Wrote:
> > A well written iPhone app is going to equal or beat the Controller in
> > most areas:
>
> Sure. But this perfect app still has to be written ;-).
>
Not for the areas he mentioned.
The Apple remote, for example, fulfills those.


--
pippin

---
see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com
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[egd]

hah, interesting thread. I'll bet the folks at Logitech are scratching
their heads over this one. It will be interesting to see whether and
how they choose to respond - take too long deciding what to do or stick
to the Controller only route and watch their market share diminish or
maintain and potentially grow market share by quickly following suite.
There's a lot to be said for first mover advantage but in this care the
barriers to entry for Logitech are low...the only question is whether
they're ready to cannibalize the Controller to stay in the game.


--
egd

Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable,
monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly
unrealistic...

Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter...'*here's how*'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Integrating_MusicIP_with_SqueezeCenter).
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[egd]

Anyone want to take a bet that after the remote war has been decided the
next big push is going to be value added content inclusion a la allmusic
integration on your wireless handheld remote controller internet browser
thingy...


--
egd

Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable,
monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly
unrealistic...

Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter...'*here's how*'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Integrating_MusicIP_with_SqueezeCenter).
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[Michael Herger]

> Anyone want to take a bet that after the remote war has been decided the
> next big push is going to be value added content inclusion a la allmusic
> integration on your wireless handheld remote controller internet browser
> thingy...

Win!

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=355264#post355264

;-)

--

Michael

[egd]

mherger;355276 Wrote:
> Win!
>
> http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=355264#post355264

I like it, but for the 'c' word. Also, i think there'd be merit in
having the information locally stored so that it's accessible without
having to be online.


--
egd

Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable,
monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly
unrealistic...

Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter...'*here's how*'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Integrating_MusicIP_with_SqueezeCenter).
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[HectorHughMunro]

It's a clever move by Sonos. The main thing stopping me from using
their kit was that I could get similar performance from the Duet for
much less and the Duet handset suited me better. I already have a
'Touch' so the cost of switching for me is now pretty cheap. I don't
intend to switch in the near term but If they establish a lead in any
area that I'm interested in, it's a possibility.

The remote for Itunes is quick, enjoyable to use and does make other
handsets feel 'clunky'.

The main problem for Logitech here might be that they would be trying
to make a business out of just selling one unit for £100 rather than
two for £240-£280.


--
HectorHughMunro
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[ds2021]

I really like the way their app handles multi-player control. In the
demo video, the segment where there was a master volume plus
independent volume control of multiple players impressed me.

I have a Controller but am very eager to see an iphone app; regardless
of what strategy they take, I'd like the Slim team to start seeing
control from all interfaces more from this simultaneous multi-unit
perspective rather than consecutive single-unit control. Some of the
independent plugin (hopefully app soon) developers are starting to
think this way.


--
ds2021

All your bass are belong to us.
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[pippin]

ds2021;355279 Wrote:
> I really like the way their app handles multi-player control. In the
> demo video, the segment where there was a master volume plus
> independent volume control of multiple players impressed me.
>
> I have a Controller but am very eager to see an iphone app; regardless
> of what strategy they take, I'd like the Slim team to start seeing
> control from all interfaces more from this simultaneous multi-unit
> perspective rather than consecutive single-unit control. Some of the
> independent plugin (hopefully app soon) developers are starting to
> think this way.

ds2021, do you read your PMs?


--
pippin

---
see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com
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[ds2021]

Just responded, sorry.


--
ds2021

All your bass are belong to us.
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[tamanaco]

andynormancx;355227 Wrote:
> Well written iPhone apps start up in under a second. The iPhone
> reconnects to wifi faster than the Controller does. There is also no
> issue with the iPhone having to wake up from suspend, like the
> Controller has to when it has been idle for more than an hour.
>
> At the same time the iPhone's battery life is better, while giving near
> instant wifi reconnection and app startup.
>
> A well written iPhone app is going to equal or beat the Controller in
> most areas:
>
> - it should be just as responsive
> - the UI has the potential to be easier to use (the flick to scroll
> approach to navigating lists on the iPhone works better than the
> Controller's wheel and the iPhone can also have its handy "jump to the
> initial letter" navigation)
> - text entry will be far, far faster
> - it reconnects to the network faster
> - it never has to wake from suspend
> - its battery life is better
>
> Where the iPhone will lose out is the lack of hardware buttons for
> volume and playback control. Picking up the Controller to adjust the
> volume or pause will be a fair bit quicker than the iPhone app,
> assuming the Controller isn't suspended of course.
>
> I guess I should say that I own an iPhone 3G and a Controller. They are
> both great devices in their own ways. I could probably live without the
> Controller, I find it hard to see how I lived before the iPhone, sad eh
> ? ;)

I'm really taken by the devotion of iPhone users. This is a compliment.
I guess my issue with the "iPhone" or any cell phone as a remote is that
I get too many calls and emails. Even after hours. After I get home from
work I put my phone on its charger and don't want to go near it for fear
that I might end up doing some more work. Or with the current
downsizing trend I don't want to get the news that I'm one of the lucky
ones selected for an extended vacation. I want to be left alone while
I'm at home listening to my SqueezeBox. In my case, I see the iTouch as
a better option for the Sonos solution. I agree about the touchscreen
interface of the iPhone/iTouch... it leaves a lot to be desired as I
compare with a traditional remotes with physical buttons. Call me old
fashion, but I want buttons in my remote. As I said before, for me
listening to music is more of a "passive" activity than an
"interactive" one. I want to hold a beer (an IPA preferably) on one
hand and the remote on the other and without looking at the remote
lower/raise the volume or skip to the next song. I am not one of those
folks that can handle a touchscreen with one hand without looking at
it. Having to use two hands to use my remote forces me to put down my
beer. That's a no, no... after a long day. I have played with the
Phillips Pronto and with the not too popular Harmony 1000. These had
ergonomically efficient "physical" buttons for certain frequently used
functions. I don't see these in the iPhone/iTouch. Not having at least
a comfortable volume up/down button would drive me up a wall.
Touchscreens are the trend, but I'm afraid that it also has its
limitations as a remote. A combination of ergonomically placed buttons
and a touchscreen would be best. Seeing all these iPhones I'm
thinking I need to go to touchscreen school.


--
tamanaco
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[PRGeno]

tamanaco;355346 Wrote:
> I'm really taken by the devotion of iPhone users. This is a compliment.
> I guess my issue with the "iPhone" or any cell phone as a remote is
> that I get too many calls and emails. Even after hours. After I get
> home from work I put my phone on its charger and don't want to go near
> it for fear that I might end up doing some more work. Or with the
> current downsizing trend I don't want to get the news that I'm one of
> the lucky ones selected for an extended vacation. I want to be left
> alone while I'm at home listening to my SqueezeBox. In my case, I see
> the iTouch as a better option for the Sonos solution. I agree about the
> touchscreen interface of the iPhone/iTouch... it leaves a lot to be
> desired as I compare with a traditional remotes with physical buttons.
> Call me old fashion, but I want buttons in my remote. As I said before,
> for me listening to music is more of a "passive" activity than an
> "interactive" one. I want to hold a beer (an IPA preferably) on one
> hand and the remote on the other and without looking at the remote
> lower/raise the volume or skip to the next song. I am not one of those
> folks that can handle a touchscreen with one hand without looking at
> it. Having to use two hands to use my remote forces me to put down my
> beer. That's a no, no... after a long day. I have played with the
> Phillips Pronto and with the not too popular Harmony 1000. These had
> ergonomically efficient "physical" buttons for certain frequently used
> functions. I don't see these in the iPhone/iTouch. Not having at least
> a comfortable volume up/down button would drive me up a wall.
> Touchscreens are the trend, but I'm afraid that it also has its
> limitations as a remote. A combination of ergonomically placed buttons
> and a touchscreen would be best. Seeing all these iPhones I'm
> thinking I need to go to touchscreen school.


I might not be as popular as you, but I have never gotten a phone call
on my iPod Touch <grin>.

My iTouch lays around like the SB Controller would (use to), and my
iPhone is usually on my person, so it can be used at a moment's notice
as well (although there is that chance someone might call me on that
one).

I'm not a fan of Apple's but this really is slick as a controller. I
like physical buttons on my remotes too, but is not a remote. It's a
controller with a view into SC, without having to look at the front
panel of my SBs, or even be in the same room. I'm quite sure
touchscreen school would be a very short class for someone like
yourself.

So if we can just get a native iPhone/Touch app, life would be truly
grand. iPeng is nice, and pippen did a great job with it. But being a
Safari app, it can never match the performance and smoothness of a well
done native iApp.

There simply is no down side to this. Those who don't "get it", don't
have to get it. Sonos, and their users, seem to have gotten it
however.


--
PRGeno
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[ajkidle]

tamanaco;355346 Wrote:
> I want to hold a beer (an IPA preferably) on one hand and the remote on
> the other and without looking at the remote lower/raise the volume or
> skip to the next song.

I know it risks going off topic, but I couldn't let the IPA thing go
without commenting. Nothing better than a good IPA.

I'll throw my two cents in to say that an official (or native) iPod
Touch app would be enough to get me to buy an iPod and give it a try.
(I own the Duet bundle.) Obviously selling more iPods is not in
Logitech's interest, but when I use a Touch to control the SBR, it'll
be that much easier to rope friends & family into the cool world of
Squeezebox. It'd be a huge selling point for the platform, methinks.


--
ajkidle
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[jaffacake]

ajkidle;355371 Wrote:
> Obviously selling more iPods is not in Logitech's interest, but when I
> use a Touch to control the SBR, it'll be that much easier to rope
> friends & family into the cool world of Squeezebox

Is that because an iPod remote would be better? Cheaper? Or just
cooler?


--
jaffacake

Ben - eco conscious techie and author of Jaffa's Green Blog -
http://www.jaffacake.net
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[ds2021]

In my experience, all of the above.

I think the conclusion that Sonos came to is that the app is unlikely
to sell more remotes, but it is likely to sell more systems. It may
also effectively drive down the cost of such systems, probably a sore
point since the dvant of the Duet. Also, the amount of internet press
(i.e., blogs) I saw after the release of this app was worth a
significant amount.


--
ds2021

All your bass are belong to us.
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[HectorHughMunro]

jaffacake;355412 Wrote:
> Is that because an iPod remote would be better? Cheaper? Or just cooler?

It's faster and a whole lot more responsive. Very stable too. It
feels like there's a lot more processing power. The touch sensitivity
is better done than anything I've ever used before.


--
HectorHughMunro
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[ajkidle]

jaffacake;355412 Wrote:
> Is that because an iPod remote would be better? Cheaper? Or just cooler?

Probably all of the above. The real basis of my argument here is that
the iPod already has mass market appeal and acceptance. They're
everywhere and everyone uses them. The Squeezebox platform is very
cool, but still niche. Bridging these two worlds can only help. If I
can show friends or family the cool thing I can do using an iPod that
they're already familiar with, it'll sell the Squeezebox platform that
much easier. Sonos has obviously figured this out.


--
ajkidle
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[HectorHughMunro]

Incidentally, I would be absolutely happy to pay a reasonable amount for
a Slimdevices Iphone/Touch app. if that's what it takes to get it going.


--
HectorHughMunro
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[rdb001]

This thread is rather amusing to me. The iPhone applications are first
and foremost directed to iPhone users. If you are an iPhone owner like
me, there is nothing more satisfying than adding another killer
application to your iPhone. The Sonos native application is just that
-- a killer application for iPhone owners. It is fast, slick, and
really does nothing to my battery based on my casual use of it. It is
comparable to the Apple Remote application, but not as good in some
ways. The only significant downside that I have seen so far is that
you need to relaunch it after switching to anything else. It certainly
is much better than the $15 Zones application that I bought, and I liked
that as well.

Now, for Sonos and others like them, the iPhone application gives all
of the iPhone users a reason to either (1) buy Sonos or (2) increase
support for the same if they already own a Sonos system (like me). I
am eagerly awaiting the Slim Devices native iPhone application (or
iPeng native -- love the Penguin). I have a Transporter and a Duet,
and the iPeng plug-in and the Pronto 9600 remote with Barry's
Prontoscript application, but somehow my life is not complete without
the iPhone remote appplication. Sound crazy? It isn't for an iPhone
owner. Comparing the iPhone remote to the Duet remote or any other
remote isn't the issue. The only comparison that really matters in my
opinion is with another iPhone application.

I have several good examples. I have been waiting for a killer iPhone
stock trading application. So far the only one that I know about is
dedicated to the Ameritrade brokerage. I don't have an account with
them, but am now considering jumping from a broker that I love because
they don't have a comparable (or any) iPhone application. On the other
hand, I own a Vudu box and it can be controlled via a wifi remote.
While waiting for a native or other application to appear in the iTunes
store, I set up my Pronto 9600 to control the box. It looked great but
would not connect. When I got in touch with Vudu support, they
informed me that a few days before my inquiry they began to block the
wifi ports and would no longer "support" (open) the port for wifi
control. I am so angry that I will likely take it back. Imagine if
Logitech did that! Those guys deserve to go out of business. I am
going to laugh when Sonos begins to add video to their system and puts
Vudu out to pasture (someone will do it). Indeed, I am now exploring
Apple TV simply because of the great iPhone remote application for that
box.

Well, the point of this thread is that the iPhone is the must have
gadget and those that have it (soon to be nearly everyone) want
everything to work with it. That is the perspective. Does the iPhone
replace all of my remotes (the Pronto, Duet controller, Sonos
controller, etc)? It certainly could and would if cost were the issue,
but I still keep the others around. The buttons come in handy at times
for example.


--
rdb001
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[Luke Redpath]

HectorHughMunro;355737 Wrote:
> Incidentally, I would be absolutely happy to pay a reasonable amount for
> a Slimdevices Iphone/Touch app. if that's what it takes to get it going.

Just in case you or anybody else missed it:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=54479

Nearly ready.


--
Luke Redpath
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[egd]

and don't forget the Pippin's iPeng that's given us the ability to
control our Squeezeboxen from our iPod Touch and iPhones, first via web
plugin and shortly via native app.


--
egd

Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable,
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[autopilot]

Yep, a few competing apps could be a really good thing.


--
autopilot

*Lounge :* Squeezebox Classic -> Cambridge Audio Azur 640a -> Mission
701's.
*Bedroom :* Squeezebox Receiver -> Trends TA10.1 Class-T -> Kef Cresta
1's
*Office :* Softsqueeze -> Logitech Active 5.1's.
*Kitchen :* Squeezebox Boom -coming soon-
*Roaming : * Squeezebox Controller -> Logitech mm28 portable speakers /
Shure E2c's
*Controllers :* Squeezebox Controller x 2 + Logitech Harmony one
*Server :* SC7.3b (Vista 64) + AlienBBC, iPlayer & MusicIP headless.

'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/domrevans/)
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[pippin]

autopilot;356214 Wrote:
> Yep, a few competing apps could be a really good thing.

Isn't a little competition always a nice thing ;-)


--
pippin

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[cakes]

Very interesting thread indeed. But the most important question has not
been answered yet. When will we see iPeng or iSqueeze in the appstore?


--
cakes

Server : Squeezecentre 7.1 on Windows XP-SP2 on P4-2.8
Plugins: biography - itunesupdate - squeezescrobbler - trackstat
Control: iPeng 0.5.2
Players: Hauppauge Mediamvp (mclient 2.2 on mvpmc) (2x) - Pinnacle
Soundbridge Homemusic
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[Luke Redpath]

I'm hoping to submit iSqueeze by the weekend. Then it's in Apple hands
although I've seen reports that approval times have come right down
recently.


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[pippin]

cakes;356766 Wrote:
> Very interesting thread indeed. But the most important question has not
> been answered yet. When will we see iPeng or iSqueeze in the appstore?

As for iPeng: Whenever Apple lets me :-)
Currently trying to get my company registered on the DevProgram (so far
I'm only registered as an individual programmer). No idea how long that
takes.


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[robroe]

pippin;356917 Wrote:
> As for iPeng: Whenever Apple lets me :-)
> Currently trying to get my company registered on the DevProgram (so far
> I'm only registered as an individual programmer). No idea how long that
> takes.

So a version 1.0 is pretty much ready then?? I look forward to seeing
one or both up there :) It'll be interesting to compare the two.

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but have you finalised what
you think you will charge for these apps?

As a few people have said these could well be the first apps I actual
pay for! TBH assuming that it is around the price banded around I would
definitely grab iPeng without even checking its features because I
appreciate all the work thats been put in on the web app, and because I
know it'll rock!


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[pippin]

I expect to be ready for AppEtore submission this weekend of early next
week. Pricing will probably be $9.99
I'll post some screenshots over the weekend


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[Borgen]

Can we get an update on what is happening with your applications?

Luke:
Are your application iSqueeze sent to Apple?
If so have your recived any date when it would come up in App Store?
If not, when will you send it to Apple?

Pippin:
Are your application iPeng sent to Apple?
If so have your recived any date when it would come up in App Store?
If not, when will you send it to Apple?


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[danco]

And will either app allow one to stream music to the iTouch?

There is an internet radio program called CastCatcher that is meant to
allow streaming, but the developer says that this is currently broken.


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[pippin]

danco;358676 Wrote:
> And will either app allow one to stream music to the iTouch?
>
> There is an internet radio program called CastCatcher that is meant to
> allow streaming, but the developer says that this is currently broken.

Not for 1.0


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[pippin]

Borgen;358667 Wrote:
>
> Pippin:
> Are your application iPeng sent to Apple?
>
No, I wanted to have automatic server discovery in there and that took
a little longer than expected. Release Candidate is going out to beta
testers today.
>
> If so have your recived any date when it would come up in App Store?
>
No, I haven't done this before.
But my other formal act holding me up (Comapny Registration) is done
now.
>
> If not, when will you send it to Apple?
Plan: tomorrow.
I will post a bigger update when it's submitted.


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[Borgen]

pippin;358684 Wrote:
>
> Plan: tomorrow.
> I will post a bigger update when it's submitted.

Pippin, sound promising.....

Saw another post from you where you said that your would post some
screen shots. Have you done that? I cant find any iPeng (native)
screenshots in this forum


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[pippin]

Borgen;358691 Wrote:
> Pippin, sound promising.....
>
> Saw another post from you where you said that your would post some
> screen shots. Have you done that? I cant find any iPeng (native)
> screenshots in this forum

Oh, there are, but I forgot where I posted them. So here they are again
(they are a bit older but only details have changed):


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: 081006 natNPPlayer.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6213|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

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[Borgen]

pippin;358693 Wrote:
> Oh, there are, but I forgot where I posted them. So here they are again
> (they are a bit older but only details have changed):

Pippin, this looks really greate!

Looking forward to the release.

Can you share some information on what functionality will be included
in the first release? An perhapps some information on features that
will be in coming version?


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[robroe]

Yeah that looks fantastic!

Looks like castcatcher has been pulled from the Apple store at the mo
http://gizmodo.com/5082341/apple-rejects-castcatcher-13-app-for-transferring-excessive-volumes-of-data


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[GlenL]

autopilot;358696 Wrote:
> Wow, that look fantastic. I need a iTouch now!!!

I'm in the market for an MP3 player and this thread is definitely
pushing me towards an iPod Touch :-)


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[Luke Redpath]

Not submitted to the store yet; decided at the last minute to bring
forward shuffle/repeat functionality, so hopefully submitting this
week.


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[mattybain]

GlenL;358785 Wrote:
> I'm in the market for an MP3 player and this thread is definitely
> pushing me towards an iPod Touch :-)

After having been on the beta test for iSqueeze all I can say is that
when they are released you iphone/itouch owners are going to love
them.

iSqueeze is so quick and so easy to use IMO it makes a mockery of the
SC. I have always thought that whilst the SC's were good they weren't
quite there, whilst the iphone apps are *definitely* there.

Great news about the shuffle facility on iSqueeze this was the only
thing that I was really missing.


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[Luke Redpath]

Full disclosure: somebody from Logitech has been in touch to discuss use
of Logitech trademarks and images (none of which are used in iSqueeze in
its present form) and the app's "final name" so reading between the
lines iSqueeze might not be the name of the final release.


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[robroe]

Luke Redpath;358839 Wrote:
> Full disclosure: somebody from Logitech has been in touch to discuss use
> of Logitech trademarks and images (none of which are used in iSqueeze in
> its present form) and the app's "final name" so (and I may be jumping
> the gun here), reading between the lines, iSqueeze might not be the
> name of the final release.

I hope this isn't them "sending in the heavies" as I don't think that
fits with the ethos of what was Slim Devices, and I think that would
rile the community somewhat.


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[Luke Redpath]

robroe;358869 Wrote:
> I hope this isn't them "sending in the heavies" as I don't think that
> fits with the ethos of what was Slim Devices, and I think that would
> rile the community somewhat.

I wouldn't go that far; the message was friendly enough. I also
understand the necessity for companies to protect trademarks.. I am
awaiting a reply to my email.


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[andynormancx]

tamanaco;355346 Wrote:
> I am not one of those folks that can handle a touchscreen with one hand
> without looking at it. Having to use two hands to use my remote forces
> me to put down my beer. That's a no, no... after a long day. I have
> played with the Phillips Pronto and with the not too popular Harmony
> 1000.

Have you played with an iPhone on Touch though ? It sounds like you
haven't.

The good news is that for mainly list based apps, like the Squeezebox
apps are going to be, you only need one hand. You beer can stay safely
in your other hand.

The iPhone interface really is like no other remote, phone or mp3
player interface (though I haven't played with the HTC Touch stuff
much, which I imagine has borrowed some bits). You really can hold it
in onw hand and navigate with you thumb.

You only need to resort to s second hand when typing text, click on
links in webpages or if you want fine control of zooming in and out of
web pages and images.

I take your point in the lack of physical buttons for things like
volume and track skipping and I doubt the apps will be able to hijack
the iPhones own volume buttons unfortunately.

I know I sound like a complete Apple fanboy, but I'm not. I use the
best tool that I can find for the job in hand. For my servers that is
Linux, for my .net development machines that is Windows, for my and for
my phone/pda/quick web browser/games machine/portable mp3 player/emailer
that is the iPhone. When we have a native iPhone app I imagine it will
also take over most of my Squeezebox controlling tasks too.


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Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ?
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[socistep]

andynormancx;355547 Wrote:
> Have you played with an iPhone or Touch though ? It sounds like you
> haven't.
>
> The good news is that for mainly list based apps, like the Squeezebox
> apps are going to be, you only need one hand. Your beer can stay safely
> in your other hand.
>
> The iPhone interface really is like no other remote, phone or mp3
> player interface (though I haven't played with the HTC Touch stuff
> much, which I imagine has borrowed some bits). You really can hold it
> in one hand and navigate with your thumb.
>
> You only need to resort to a second hand when typing text, clicking on
> links in webpages or if you want fine control of zooming in and out of
> web pages and images.
>
> I take your point on the lack of physical buttons for things like
> volume and track skipping and I doubt the apps will be able to hijack
> the iPhones own volume buttons unfortunately.
>
> I know I sound like a complete Apple fanboy, but I'm not. I use the
> best tool that I can find for the job in hand. For my servers that is
> Linux, for my .net development machines that is Windows, for my
> phone/pda/quick web browser/games machine/portable mp3 player/emailer
> that is the iPhone. When we have a native iPhone app I imagine it will
> also take over most of my Squeezebox controlling tasks too.

I agree entirely with this, the iPhone is an excellent tool for the
above and I look forward to having a native app for my Duet and
hopefully a Boom. I think I would mainly use it for the Boom and use it
to control in the bedroom and the Duet controller in the living room.


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[Luke Redpath]

pippin;354580 Wrote:
> Really?
> Does it have anything iPeng (skin) doesn't?

I don't know; I wasn't just thinking in terms of features, more
improvements.


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[tamanaco]

pippin;354567 Wrote:
> You do realize, that there is also the iPod touch, don't you?
> From the feedback I get on iPeng I believe there are more people using
> that one than the actual iPhone as a remote control.
> And it can still play music, and let's you browse the internet in
> bed...

My argument was mostly related to the iPhone/Smartphone. I know that
the iPod Touch has WiFi which narrows its use to home WiFi networks and
to WiFi hotspots. iPhones and Smartphones with 3G widens the area of
coverage where one can use them as streamed media "players"... not
necessarely as "remotes". Using 3G somewhat reduces battery drain as I
compare it to the current generation of WiFi chipsets in our phones.


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[pippin]

tamanaco;354289 Wrote:
> I'm glad you're happy with iPeng. I have to assume that you're the only
> person that uses your iPhone as a remote. As "home" remote a "personal"
> multipurpose device on the hands of others is an accident wating to
> happen. As a "personal" remote the iPhone with iPeng is fine. I assume
> that you keep your phone on at all times to receive calls. This means
> that you have to connect to the WiFi and Cell network simultaneously
> to take full advantage of the iPhone as a remote. This connections
> along with the large touch screen will drain the iPhone battery a lot
> faster than the battery of a standalone SBC. My experiences using
> multiple purpose devices as "home" remotes have not been uplifting.
> That is the reason I mentioned in my post that using a
> Smartphone/iPhone as "remote" mobile "player" made a lot more sense.
> Again, if you want to use a Smartphone/iPhone as a remote, synching it
> to a local or a remote hardware player using SqueezePlay would cover
> the "remote" aspects when you're home or away.
>

I don't care about all this dedicated/non-dedicated stuff, but I have
to admit, that I prefer my iPod touch over my iPhone as a remote :-)

I don't exactly understand your point about the battery lifetime.
My iPhone is ALWAYS connected to my home WLAN when I'm home. Power
management is good, it usually lasts for at least three days, including
regular e-mail pulling, some browsing and use as a remote. My SBC lasts
for one day.
When I don't use them for a while, both will shut off, which means with
iPeng (the skin, not the app), it will take approx. 10s until you are
back connected. Which is still faster than the SBC. The iPeng app takes
2-3s.
When I introduced playback through iPeng, I did a test on how long the
battery lasts while doing playback, and since this is running through
the browser this also included leaving the screen on and leaving WLAN
on.
The result (http://penguinlovesmusic.de/?p=65) shows that it runs for a
bit more than 5 hours of continuous playback, I have to do that test
with my SBC.


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[thing-fish]

tamanaco;354250 Wrote:
> What I would like to see in the future from SD/Logitech is SqueezePlay
> ported for use in Smartphones/iPhones, but as mobile "player" not
> necessarily as a home remote. (It can work as a remote if you sync it
> another player at home) With the current generation of 3G phones
> streaming media from the Internet in large metropolitan areas is a
> piece of cake. I currently use my Smartphone with PocketPlayer to
> stream internet radio stations either via AT&T 3G network or via WiFi.

I got the unlimited data plan for my Treo to give it a try. I enjoyed
the heck out of it, it was amazing to listen to internet radio in the
car and such.

However, I was deeply disappointed in SqueezeCenter's capability to
serve music to the device. I always came in from a different IP
address, so I was unable to set defaults for the stream. As such, it
always came in as unlimited, choking the bandwidth immediately. I
considered submitting a feature request that would let you specify the
desired stream rate in the url (i.e.
http://myserver:9000/stream.mp3?bitrate=96k) to surmount this, but in
the end decided to end my unlimited data trial.

Nonetheless, I think that Logitech is missing a real opportunity if
they don't release an iPhone app (not just a remote but also a player
to listen to your collection in the car) AND tweak stream.mp3's
functionality so that you can enjoy it more even without an app.


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[pippin]

Borgen;358699 Wrote:
> Pippin, this looks really greate!
>
> Looking forward to the release.
>
> Can you share some information on what functionality will be included
> in the first release? An perhapps some information on features that
> will be in coming version?

Tomorrow.
Just so much: More than Sonos...

thing-fish;358815 Wrote:
>
> Nonetheless, I think that Logitech is missing a real opportunity if
> they don't release an iPhone app (not just a remote but also a player
> to listen to your collection in the car) AND tweak stream.mp3's
> functionality so that you can enjoy it more even without an app.

iPeng will eventually have that (heck, even the skin has it), just not
for the first version.

BTW, did you try the iPeng skin's playback? Since that DOWNLOADS the
files to the iPhone it could actually work better than the stream.


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[peterw]

thing-fish;358815 Wrote:
> I was deeply disappointed in SqueezeCenter's capability to serve music
> to the device. I always came in from a different IP address, so I was
> unable to set defaults for the stream. As such, it always came in as
> unlimited, choking the bandwidth immediately. I considered submitting
> a feature request that would let you specify the desired stream rate in
> the url (i.e. http://myserver:9000/stream.mp3?bitrate=96k) to surmount
> this, but in the end decided to end my unlimited data trial.

SettingsManager (see below) should let you save the bitrate limiting
for a currently connected player as a "Default Web" setting, thereby
applying it to any new IP addresses that connects for /stream.mp3
playback. That's not well tested, but it should work, and I welcome
feedback & bug reports.

-Peter


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[Mark Lanctot]

Threads merged.


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