SONY BURNED-TO-ORDER CDRs

[John Fowler]

The Gunter Wand Beethoven Symphony set was issued in a cardboard box with cardboard jackets in 2018 as part of Sony's budget-priced Master series.
It was reissued in 2020 in one of those super-fragile 5-CD plastic cases.
According to the first three reviewers on Amazon, the CDs inside were burned-to-order CDRs with glued-on paper labels:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079J8R3HZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Amazon's listing usually mentions if a CD or DVD is burned-to-order, but not this time.
I took a chance and ordered a box from Amazon in January 2021.
Amazon sent me the plastic box, which I immediately returned unopened.

You can see the cardboard box @25:01 on Dave Hurwitz's survey of the Beethoven Symphony sets:

[John Fowler]

Arkivmusic.com still has original pressings of the Wand Beethoven Symphonies in a cardboard box.

[Steven de Mena]

Post by John Fowler
Arkivmusic.com still has original pressings of the Wand Beethoven Symphonies in a cardboard box.

How do you know Arkiv isn't selling you CD-Rs too?

I got the Vaughan Wiilliams symphonies with Andre Previn on Sony from Amazon and they're CD-Rs.

I'm told Sone US is using CD-Rs for a lot of their new titles also. The Bruckner 7th I got with Alan Gilbert is a CD-R. Print quality of the booklet is just not as good as what one would get with a pressed CD.

Steve

[John Fowler]

Post by Steven de Mena

Post by John Fowler
Arkivmusic.com still has original pressings of the Wand Beethoven Symphonies in a cardboard box.

How do you know Arkiv isn't selling you CD-Rs too?
I got the Vaughan Wiilliams symphonies with Andre Previn on Sony from Amazon and they're CD-Rs.
I'm told Sone US is using CD-Rs for a lot of their new titles also. The Bruckner 7th I got with Alan Gilbert is a CD-R. Print quality of the booklet is just not as good as what one would get with a pressed CD.
Steve

Uh-oh

[John Fowler]

Post by Steven de Mena

Post by John Fowler
Arkivmusic.com still has original pressings of the Wand Beethoven Symphonies in a cardboard box.

How do you know Arkiv isn't selling you CD-Rs too?
I got the Vaughan Wiilliams symphonies with Andre Previn on Sony from Amazon and they're CD-Rs.
I'm told Sone US is using CD-Rs for a lot of their new titles also. The Bruckner 7th I got with Alan Gilbert is a CD-R. Print quality of the booklet is just not as good as what one would get with a pressed CD.
Steve

Uh-oh

The booklet is the hardest thing to fake, but Sony budget boxes don't come with booklets.
Cardboard boxes also have to be custom-made and glued together, unlike plastic cases.
Millions of empty plastic cases already exist, and you just have to print paper inserts for the top and bottom.
I ordered the arkiv.music box and will look closely for signs of paper labels glued to the disc.

[John Fowler]

Post by John Fowler

Post by Steven de Mena

Post by John Fowler
Arkivmusic.com still has original pressings of the Wand Beethoven Symphonies in a cardboard box.

How do you know Arkiv isn't selling you CD-Rs too?
I got the Vaughan Wiilliams symphonies with Andre Previn on Sony from Amazon and they're CD-Rs.
I'm told Sone US is using CD-Rs for a lot of their new titles also. The Bruckner 7th I got with Alan Gilbert is a CD-R. Print quality of the booklet is just not as good as what one would get with a pressed CD.
Steve

Uh-oh

The booklet is the hardest thing to fake, but Sony budget boxes don't come with booklets.
Cardboard boxes also have to be custom-made and glued together, unlike plastic cases.
Millions of empty plastic cases already exist, and you just have to print paper inserts for the top and bottom.
I ordered the arkiv.music box and will look closely for signs of paper labels glued to the disc.

Arkivmusic.com has always been pretty good about admitting which of their CDs are burned to order.
At the top of their website, click on "Arkiv CDs"
They currently have 12 individual burned-to-order Gunter Wand CDs, but no Beethoven:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=57990&name_role1=3&bcorder=H3&album_group=8

Arkivmusic.com also has 38 burned-to-order Andre Previn CDs, including three individual Vaughan Williams Symphonies, but not the box:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?bcorder=H&album_group=8&name_id=9711&name_role=3
Nothing by Alan Gilbert.

[John Fowler]

Post by John Fowler

Post by John Fowler

Post by Steven de Mena

Post by John Fowler
Arkivmusic.com still has original pressings of the Wand Beethoven Symphonies in a cardboard box.

How do you know Arkiv isn't selling you CD-Rs too?
I got the Vaughan Wiilliams symphonies with Andre Previn on Sony from Amazon and they're CD-Rs.
I'm told Sone US is using CD-Rs for a lot of their new titles also. The Bruckner 7th I got with Alan Gilbert is a CD-R. Print quality of the booklet is just not as good as what one would get with a pressed CD.
Steve

Uh-oh

The booklet is the hardest thing to fake, but Sony budget boxes don't come with booklets.
Cardboard boxes also have to be custom-made and glued together, unlike plastic cases.
Millions of empty plastic cases already exist, and you just have to print paper inserts for the top and bottom.
I ordered the arkiv.music box and will look closely for signs of paper labels glued to the disc.

Arkivmusic.com has always been pretty good about admitting which of their CDs are burned to order.
At the top of their website, click on "Arkiv CDs"
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=57990&name_role1=3&bcorder=H3&album_group=8
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?bcorder=H&album_group=8&name_id=9711&name_role=3
Nothing by Alan Gilbert.

HBDirect.com also has the Wand Beethoven Symphonies in a cardboard box.

[Steven de Mena]

Post by John Fowler
HBDirect.com also has the Wand Beethoven Symphonies in a cardboard box.

Did you ask them, or did you go by their online listing?

[John Fowler]

Post by Steven de Mena

Post by John Fowler
HBDirect.com also has the Wand Beethoven Symphonies in a cardboard box.

Did you ask them, or did you go by their online listing?

I asked both Archivmusic and HBDirect if they had the cardboard box or plastic case.
Both replied that they had the cardboard box version.
I ordered from Arkivmusic, but only because they replied first.
New question:
Is Amazon the only dealer selling the plastic case version of Wand's Beethoven Symphonies?

[Steven de Mena]

Post by John Fowler
Arkivmusic.com has always been pretty good about admitting which of their CDs are burned to order.
At the top of their website, click on "Arkiv CDs"
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=57990&name_role1=3&bcorder=H3&album_group=8
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?bcorder=H&album_group=8&name_id=9711&name_role=3
Nothing by Alan Gilbert.

"ArkivCD" indicates a CD-R they produced themselves. It's not a general indicator that you're getting a CD-R from an external source.

Lyrita is pretty much all CD-R and always has been, but there's no indication at ArkivMusic.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Label?&label_id=1035

I wonder if I threw out my Vaughan WIlliams symphonies? It was in a flimsy cardboard box (too many discs for a Jumbo Jewel case) and each disk was in a paper sleeve. The labels were printed onto the disks but if you held a disc up to the light you could see the label info from the data side.

[Steven de Mena]

That's not at all unusual in my experience, especially with the right kind of light.

Yes, what these discs look like ARE unusual. Note in the picture the middle horizontal area where "SONY MUSIC" on the right and the RCA logo on the left are vaguely visible.

Here is an old picture I took a few months ago. They were in a Jewel Box, inside of a slipcase, and they made a booklet containing the backs of the normal cardboard sleeves.

Loading Image...

Steve

[Frank Berger]

Post by John Fowler

Post by John Fowler

Post by Steven de Mena

Post by John Fowler
Arkivmusic.com still has original pressings of the Wand Beethoven Symphonies in a cardboard box.

How do you know Arkiv isn't selling you CD-Rs too?
I got the Vaughan Wiilliams symphonies with Andre Previn on Sony from Amazon and they're CD-Rs.
I'm told Sone US is using CD-Rs for a lot of their new titles also. The Bruckner 7th I got with Alan Gilbert is a CD-R. Print quality of the booklet is just not as good as what one would get with a pressed CD.
Steve

Uh-oh

The booklet is the hardest thing to fake, but Sony budget boxes don't come with booklets.
Cardboard boxes also have to be custom-made and glued together, unlike plastic cases.
Millions of empty plastic cases already exist, and you just have to print paper inserts for the top and bottom.
I ordered the arkiv.music box and will look closely for signs of paper labels glued to the disc.

Arkivmusic.com has always been pretty good about admitting which of their CDs are burned to order.
At the top of their website, click on "Arkiv CDs"
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=57990&name_role1=3&bcorder=H3&album_group=8
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?bcorder=H&album_group=8&name_id=9711&name_role=3
Nothing by Alan Gilbert.

I don't quite understand your use of the words "fake," and
"admitting." You seem to be implying some sort of
deliberate deception. I have bought third party merchandise
where the seller didn't mention that the item was a CD-R, as
often from oversight as deception I would imagine. As far
as I know CD-R sales by ARKIV, Sony, Presto, etc. are
clearly identified as such. Having said that I'm personally
not even convinced that there is really a significant
difference between a CD and a CD-R, certainly not in sound,
but even in longevity.

[drh8h]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by John Fowler

Post by John Fowler

Post by Steven de Mena

Post by John Fowler
Arkivmusic.com still has original pressings of the Wand Beethoven Symphonies in a cardboard box.

How do you know Arkiv isn't selling you CD-Rs too?
I got the Vaughan Wiilliams symphonies with Andre Previn on Sony from Amazon and they're CD-Rs.
I'm told Sone US is using CD-Rs for a lot of their new titles also. The Bruckner 7th I got with Alan Gilbert is a CD-R. Print quality of the booklet is just not as good as what one would get with a pressed CD.
Steve

Uh-oh

The booklet is the hardest thing to fake, but Sony budget boxes don't come with booklets.
Cardboard boxes also have to be custom-made and glued together, unlike plastic cases.
Millions of empty plastic cases already exist, and you just have to print paper inserts for the top and bottom.
I ordered the arkiv.music box and will look closely for signs of paper labels glued to the disc.

Arkivmusic.com has always been pretty good about admitting which of their CDs are burned to order.
At the top of their website, click on "Arkiv CDs"
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=57990&name_role1=3&bcorder=H3&album_group=8
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?bcorder=H&album_group=8&name_id=9711&name_role=3
Nothing by Alan Gilbert.

I don't quite understand your use of the words "fake," and
"admitting." You seem to be implying some sort of
deliberate deception. I have bought third party merchandise
where the seller didn't mention that the item was a CD-R, as
often from oversight as deception I would imagine. As far
as I know CD-R sales by ARKIV, Sony, Presto, etc. are
clearly identified as such. Having said that I'm personally
not even convinced that there is really a significant
difference between a CD and a CD-R, certainly not in sound,
but even in longevity.

My only concern about CD-Rs is whether the equipment was operating correctly and the labels, if glued rather than printed, were properly attached. Lasers with weak diodes from thousands of hours of use, combined with discs unbalanced by bad or badly attached labels and high speeds used in duplicating, can create problems down the road. Even manufactured discs can be faulty, esp. at the end of the disc, where the problems always seem most likely to occur. I don't believe anyone could tell the difference between a burned and pressed CD in a double-blind test just on sound. A faulty disc almost invariably causes a "chuffing" sound that increases with volume of the sound. Depending on the player, you might get pops and dropouts, but those seem to be associated primarily with pits and deep scratches, or just errors in the player. Or sometimes small burrs in the center hole, which only seem to trip up the expensive players. The cheapies don't even notice.

[Frank Berger]

Post by drh8h

Post by Frank Berger

Post by John Fowler

Post by John Fowler

Post by Steven de Mena

Post by John Fowler
Arkivmusic.com still has original pressings of the Wand Beethoven Symphonies in a cardboard box.

How do you know Arkiv isn't selling you CD-Rs too?
I got the Vaughan Wiilliams symphonies with Andre Previn on Sony from Amazon and they're CD-Rs.
I'm told Sone US is using CD-Rs for a lot of their new titles also. The Bruckner 7th I got with Alan Gilbert is a CD-R. Print quality of the booklet is just not as good as what one would get with a pressed CD.
Steve

Uh-oh

The booklet is the hardest thing to fake, but Sony budget boxes don't come with booklets.
Cardboard boxes also have to be custom-made and glued together, unlike plastic cases.
Millions of empty plastic cases already exist, and you just have to print paper inserts for the top and bottom.
I ordered the arkiv.music box and will look closely for signs of paper labels glued to the disc.

Arkivmusic.com has always been pretty good about admitting which of their CDs are burned to order.
At the top of their website, click on "Arkiv CDs"
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=57990&name_role1=3&bcorder=H3&album_group=8
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?bcorder=H&album_group=8&name_id=9711&name_role=3
Nothing by Alan Gilbert.

I don't quite understand your use of the words "fake," and
"admitting." You seem to be implying some sort of
deliberate deception. I have bought third party merchandise
where the seller didn't mention that the item was a CD-R, as
often from oversight as deception I would imagine. As far
as I know CD-R sales by ARKIV, Sony, Presto, etc. are
clearly identified as such. Having said that I'm personally
not even convinced that there is really a significant
difference between a CD and a CD-R, certainly not in sound,
but even in longevity.

My only concern about CD-Rs is whether the equipment was operating correctly and the labels, if glued rather than printed, were properly attached. Lasers with weak diodes from thousands of hours of use, combined with discs unbalanced by bad or badly attached labels and high speeds used in duplicating, can create problems down the road. Even manufactured discs can be faulty, esp. at the end of the disc, where the problems always seem most likely to occur. I don't believe anyone could tell the difference between a burned and pressed CD in a double-blind test just on sound. A faulty disc almost invariably causes a "chuffing" sound that increases with volume of the sound. Depending on the player, you might get pops and dropouts, but those seem to be associated primarily with pits and deep scratches, or just errors in the player. Or sometimes small burrs in the center hole, which only seem to trip up the expensive players. The cheapies don't even notice.

This reminds me of those TV commercials for drugs that are
accompanied by government-mandated possible side effects.
If people paid attention to that crap they would never use
the drug. Similarly, CD-Rs, AFIAC. I would guess I have a
couple of hundred of CD-Rs, almost all of them listened to
once more. Some I bought, some I burned. It doesn't seem
like should worry about any of the above, since I've never
experienced it. It's like not using the Internet because
once in a blue moon a purchase goes bad.

[Steven de Mena]

From an Amazon review of the Alan Gilbert Bruckner 7th (SONY CD-R).

"1.0 out of 5 stars Fine Performance -- Questionable Release
Reviewed in the United States on November 21, 2019
Let me start by saying that I picked this CD up at The Juilliard Store in New York City. As I'd never attended a single concert by the New York Philharmonic under Alan Gilbert, I felt I owed him something in terms of acknowledgement, and I can always use another good Bruckner 7th, and this is that. The playing is beautiful, the performance is spot-on, and if that were the only consideration -- which, in an ideal world, it ought to be -- this would be a four-star review (four stars because, let's face it, it comes along in the wake of long-standing recordings and performances conducted by the likes of Bruno Walter, Gunter Wand, Herbert Von Karajan, Otto Klemperer et al).

Ah, but then there's Sony Classical, the company releasing it.

Apparently, in a quest to cut corners, or an acknowledgement of their miserably low expectations for sales of this item, the company has chosen to issue this new release as a CD-R.

There's no indication of such on the outer packaging -- a practice of which Concord Music Group is also guilty in some of its jazz CD reissues -- and no indication in the Amazon entry on the item, but that was certainly the case with the CD that I purchased at The Juilliard Store (and no one's going to tell me that The Juilliard Store is buying bootlegs, "grey market" items, or promos). So what would be a 4-star CD becomes a 1-star CDr, thanks to the foolishness of the company releasing it, and anyone considering buying this release can now walk in with their eyes open.

Shame on you, Sony Classical."

[Frank Berger]

Post by Steven de Mena
From an Amazon review of the Alan Gilbert Bruckner 7th (SONY CD-R).
"1.0 out of 5 stars Fine Performance -- Questionable Release
Reviewed in the United States on November 21, 2019
Let me start by saying that I picked this CD up at The Juilliard Store in New York City. As I'd never attended a single concert by the New York Philharmonic under Alan Gilbert, I felt I owed him something in terms of acknowledgement, and I can always use another good Bruckner 7th, and this is that. The playing is beautiful, the performance is spot-on, and if that were the only consideration -- which, in an ideal world, it ought to be -- this would be a four-star review (four stars because, let's face it, it comes along in the wake of long-standing recordings and performances conducted by the likes of Bruno Walter, Gunter Wand, Herbert Von Karajan, Otto Klemperer et al).
Ah, but then there's Sony Classical, the company releasing it.
Apparently, in a quest to cut corners, or an acknowledgement of their miserably low expectations for sales of this item, the company has chosen to issue this new release as a CD-R.
There's no indication of such on the outer packaging -- a practice of which Concord Music Group is also guilty in some of its jazz CD reissues -- and no indication in the Amazon entry on the item, but that was certainly the case with the CD that I purchased at The Juilliard Store (and no one's going to tell me that The Juilliard Store is buying bootlegs, "grey market" items, or promos). So what would be a 4-star CD becomes a 1-star CDr, thanks to the foolishness of the company releasing it, and anyone considering buying this release can now walk in with their eyes open.
Shame on you, Sony Classical."

Would you not have bought it was labeled as a CD-R?

[Steven de Mena]

On Monday, January 25, 2021 at 11:34:20 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
omos). So what would be a 4-star CD becomes a 1-star CDr, thanks to the foolishness of the company releasing it, and anyone considering buying this release can now walk in with their eyes open.

Post by Steven de Mena
Shame on you, Sony Classical."

Would you not have bought it was labeled as a CD-r?

Yes I would. I bought it out of curiosity as I was told they were selling CD-Rs.
A disk like this I’ll rip to my computer & never play the disk again. The booklet is meaningless, I can read about Bruckner 7 online.

[Alan Dawes]

Post by Steven de Mena
Apparently, in a quest to cut corners, or an acknowledgement of their
miserably low expectations for sales of this item, the company has
chosen to issue this new release as a CD-R.
There's no indication of such on the outer packaging -- a practice of
which Concord Music Group is also guilty in some of its jazz CD reissues
-- and no indication in the Amazon entry on the item, but that was
certainly the case with the CD that I purchased at The Juilliard Store
(and no one's going to tell me that The Juilliard Store is buying
bootlegs, "grey market" items, or promos). So what would be a 4-star CD
becomes a 1-star CDr, thanks to the foolishness of the company releasing
it, and anyone considering buying this release can now walk in with
their eyes open.

I thought that you could tell the difference between a CD and a CD-R by
looking at the playing side for the line where the laser finished writing
to the CD-R. See:

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=86282&forumID=7&archive=0

"So, a way to tell a CDR vs. a CD is to look at the side that plays. A CDR
will have a demarcation line where the laser finished its writing. The
line will trace the perimeter of the CD, and be parallel to its edge. The
line is basically burned substrate (to the left), and raw substrate (to
the right). A real CD will not have this line since it is stamped from a
glass-master. FYI: track 1 is closest to the hole, and the last track is
the closest to the edge. So if you have a 79:22 CD, check very close to
the edge for the demarcation line."

I can see this on the CD-Rs that I have and not on the CDs.

Alan

[Steven de Mena]

Post by Alan Dawes
I thought that you could tell the difference between a CD and a CD-R by
looking at the playing side for the line where the laser finished writing
to the CD-R.

Doesn't really work on silver CD-Rs. Yes, you can kinda see a "demarcation" line but you can also see that on many CDs.

[Jerry]

Post by Alan Dawes

Post by Steven de Mena
Apparently, in a quest to cut corners, or an acknowledgement of their
miserably low expectations for sales of this item, the company has
chosen to issue this new release as a CD-R.
There's no indication of such on the outer packaging -- a practice of
which Concord Music Group is also guilty in some of its jazz CD reissues
-- and no indication in the Amazon entry on the item, but that was
certainly the case with the CD that I purchased at The Juilliard Store
(and no one's going to tell me that The Juilliard Store is buying
bootlegs, "grey market" items, or promos). So what would be a 4-star CD
becomes a 1-star CDr, thanks to the foolishness of the company releasing
it, and anyone considering buying this release can now walk in with
their eyes open.

I thought that you could tell the difference between a CD and a CD-R by
looking at the playing side for the line where the laser finished writing
https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=86282&forumID=7&archive=0
"So, a way to tell a CDR vs. a CD is to look at the side that plays. A CDR
will have a demarcation line where the laser finished its writing. The
line will trace the perimeter of the CD, and be parallel to its edge. The
line is basically burned substrate (to the left), and raw substrate (to
the right). A real CD will not have this line since it is stamped from a
glass-master. FYI: track 1 is closest to the hole, and the last track is
the closest to the edge. So if you have a 79:22 CD, check very close to
the edge for the demarcation line."
I can see this on the CD-Rs that I have and not on the CDs.
Alan
--
Using an ARMX6

If in doubt, try checking around the center hole where the matrix number will normally appear. It seems as if a CDR will have a generic number, usually containing the number 80 and printed
in a dot matrix style whereas a RedBook CD will almost always have a number unique to
that CD. It also seems to me that the reflected light from the playing side of a CD-R looks
different than the reflection from a RedBook CD. That is clearly visible in the photo posted
earlier of the CD-R version of RCA’s Vaughan Williams set.

Jerry