Bumper-mounted trailer hitch bracket for Jeep Wrangler TJ

[Richard J Kinch]

Here is my design for a bumper-mounted Jeep Wrangler TJ trailer hitch:

http://www.truetex.com/jeep_trailer_hitch_bracket.htm

["Grumman-581" @gmail.com>]

I would think that welding a 2" receiver hitch receptacle to the bottom of
the angle bracket would give you more flexibility... It would lower the
trailer tongue enough that you probably wouldn't have to worry about your
door hitting it... If your vehicle is lifted, you could use a 2" receiver
with a drop so that the trailer could be towed in a more level attitude...
You would also have the option to use the 2" receiver for a bike rack or
cargo carrier...

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by "Grumman-581" @gmail.com>
I would think that welding a 2" receiver hitch receptacle to the
bottom of the angle bracket would give you more flexibility.

Agreed. I may modify it later like you say, but for now I just wanted the
minimum cost and effort to tow a small boat, improvising a step bumper like
on a pickup truck.

Bumper-mounting a 2-inch receiver strikes me as an awkward combination,
like hanging an oxen yoke on a pony.

["Grumman-581" @gmail.com>]

Post by Richard J Kinch
Bumper-mounting a 2-inch receiver strikes me as an awkward combination,
like hanging an oxen yoke on a pony.

Which group are you posting from so I can drop the crossposting to the
other... I'm in r.a.m.j+w...

The thing is, it gives you a lot more flexibility for other attachments that
you don't have with smaller receivers or just a bumper hitch... It also
gives you the option for a receiver mounted winch that you could move from
the front to the rear (assume that you also did the same thing on the front
bumper)... I've been considering mounting 2 extra 2" receivers on my rear
bumper and making a custom cargo carrier such that it would have three 2"
supports that would slide into the three receivers... That would make for a
'ell of a sturdy cargo carrier...

The bumper mounted 2" receivers that I've seen previously also have a 45"
piece of plate steel welded on both sides of the 2" receiver to the mounting
plate so that it will provide more resistance to twisting... Probably more
of an issue with a cargo carrier than a trailer...

[Gunner]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:16:53 GMT, "Grumman-581"

Post by "Grumman-581" @gmail.com>
I would think that welding a 2" receiver hitch receptacle to the bottom of
the angle bracket would give you more flexibility... It would lower the
trailer tongue enough that you probably wouldn't have to worry about your
door hitting it... If your vehicle is lifted, you could use a 2" receiver
with a drop so that the trailer could be towed in a more level attitude...
You would also have the option to use the 2" receiver for a bike rack or
cargo carrier...

I agree. Well said.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

[Tomes]

Nice and simple. The thing I am worried about is the strength of the
connection between the bumper and the Jeep itself.
Tomes

Post by Richard J Kinch
http://www.truetex.com/jeep_trailer_hitch_bracket.htm

[RoyJ]

The bumper on the Wrangler is not not strong enougth for trailer loading
to the 2000 pound towing capacity of the Jeep (assuming you have the
6cyl and 2000 pound rated capacity)

I'm fairly certain that I could grab a 2' pipe wrench and give that
hitch a good flexing without too much trouble.

Post by Richard J Kinch
http://www.truetex.com/jeep_trailer_hitch_bracket.htm

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by RoyJ
The bumper on the Wrangler is not not strong enougth for trailer loading
to the 2000 pound towing capacity of the Jeep (assuming you have the
6cyl and 2000 pound rated capacity)

I guess you didn't actually read the page, where I say as much.

The point is to get *some* capacity without spending $150 for a real frame
hitch and drawbar.

[cantrelm]

I don't think I would trust the stock bumper on a TJ to pull anything.
When I ordered my 2000 TJ with towing package it had a separate tube and
receiver mounted off of the frame rails and not to the bumper itself
as they told me it would not hold up to towing....... it is very thin
channel that is mounted to the cross member mainly and not the frame. I
would be very leery about doing this. Nice design though...

Tom

Post by Richard J Kinch
http://www.truetex.com/jeep_trailer_hitch_bracket.htm

[Dave Milne]

I have the mopar towbar - it attaches to the frame at 6 points using 1/4"
plate. Pretty substantial.

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

Post by cantrelm
I don't think I would trust the stock bumper on a TJ to pull anything.
When I ordered my 2000 TJ with towing package it had a separate tube and
receiver mounted off of the frame rails and not to the bumper itself
as they told me it would not hold up to towing....... it is very thin
channel that is mounted to the cross member mainly and not the frame. I
would be very leery about doing this. Nice design though...
Tom

Post by Richard J Kinch
http://www.truetex.com/jeep_trailer_hitch_bracket.htm

["Grumman-581" @gmail.com>]

Post by cantrelm
I don't think I would trust the stock bumper on a TJ to pull anything.

Yeah, it does seem a bit flimsy, like the original bumpers on my XJ...
Perhaps his next project should be to design a real bumper for his TJ that
utilizes the original bumper's mounting points in addition to the mounting
points for the factory receiver hitch... Make the entire bumper out of 1/4"
steel so that you can jack the car up with it... Might as well consider
closing off parts of it for an emergency air tank also...

[cantrelm]

That is what I am doing. Making my own swing arm bumper, with a 2" hitch
receiver in the middle of the bumper tube..... These pictures don't have the
hitch cut and welded in yet, but it will be dead center of the main bumper.
The whole thing will bolt to the frame rails where my current hitch bolts
now and also use the crossmember mounts that the standard bumper has.
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
I am putting a hi-lift jack mount on there also.

Tom

Post by "Grumman-581" @gmail.com>

Post by cantrelm
I don't think I would trust the stock bumper on a TJ to pull anything.

Yeah, it does seem a bit flimsy, like the original bumpers on my XJ...
Perhaps his next project should be to design a real bumper for his TJ that
utilizes the original bumper's mounting points in addition to the mounting
points for the factory receiver hitch... Make the entire bumper out of 1/4"
steel so that you can jack the car up with it... Might as well consider
closing off parts of it for an emergency air tank also...

[Richard J Kinch]

Perhaps his next project should be to design a real bumper for his TJ ...

Bad idea. Bumpers are weaker than the frame so they absorb impact energy
instead of bending the frame. You put a heavy bumper (or a frame hitch for
that matter) on the back of your car, and many collisions are going to
result in frame damage that would have just been a simple bolt-on swap of a
new bumper.

On a previous rear-ended TJ I was able to replace a crunched back bumper
with a $25 OEM item from eBay (surplus to somebody's aftermarket upgrade)
with hand tools. The other guy had $1000s in damage.

I wonder if people buying all those macho aftermarket bumpers understand
that they've *given up* a lot of their crash protection?

["Grumman-581" @gmail.com>]

Post by Richard J Kinch
I wonder if people buying all those macho aftermarket bumpers understand
that they've *given up* a lot of their crash protection?

Depends upon the severity of the wreck... My experience has been that it
caused thousands of dollars of damage to the other vehicle and just knocked
some dirt off my bumper... Turns out that *his* vehicle was acting as the
crumple zone for *my* vehicle... <evil-grin>

[Larry Jaques]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:56:17 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,

Post by "Grumman-581" @gmail.com>

Post by Richard J Kinch
I wonder if people buying all those macho aftermarket bumpers understand
that they've *given up* a lot of their crash protection?

Depends upon the severity of the wreck... My experience has been that it
caused thousands of dollars of damage to the other vehicle and just knocked
some dirt off my bumper... Turns out that *his* vehicle was acting as the
crumple zone for *my* vehicle... <evil-grin>

That's what happened to the Toyota station wagon that hit my F-150
dock bumper. It shortened the Toy by ONE FOOT and it gave my right
rear fender a 1/2" deep 2.5" diameter ding as well as scratching the
dock bumper paint. Luckily, I had the rear slider open and it kept
my head from going through the back glass. Both pieces of glass bowed
and acted as a spring to limit my whiplash vs. killing me. I'm just
glad I was still doing 35mph when she hit me at 65. How she missed
seeing 30 cars with their brake lights on (+ my full-sized pickup)
I'll never know.

MASS, not crumple zone, is the winner in a vehicular accident. Trucks
usually win over cars and smaller trees. Y'all can keep your Geo
Metros and other crumple-zone tin cans.


---
Annoy a politician: Be trustworthy, faithful, and honest!
---
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

[Stephen Young]

Post by Richard J Kinch
I wonder if people buying all those macho aftermarket bumpers understand
that they've *given up* a lot of their crash protection?

My 1995 K1500 has a brushguard/grilleguard mounted on the front. Bought
the truck used & outfitted this way. Last year a silly juvenile female
pulled out in front of me from a side street - her fault & she got
ticketed. Totaled her Neon. I drove away with no radiator damage or
drivability problems because that brushguard crushed sideways. Saved me
big bucks & aggravation until I got it fixed.

[billy ray]

Most of the ones distributed by the big names (Warn, ARB, etc) are designed
to work with newer vehicle crash equipment and airbags.... at least that is
what they claim..

Post by Richard J Kinch
I wonder if people buying all those macho aftermarket bumpers understand
that they've *given up* a lot of their crash protection?

[cantrelm]

Stephen, I have to agree. I made a front brushguard for my Jeep and a week
after getting it on I got rear-ended and launched 4 feet forward and up
under the back of a flat bed truck. Only thing that it did to the Jeep was
scratch off some powder-coating on brushguard. The guy that hit me had to
have a new grill and hood. Had it not been for my guard I would have had to
have all that too.
Here is a pic of guard.
Loading Image...

Tom

Post by Stephen Young

Post by Richard J Kinch
I wonder if people buying all those macho aftermarket bumpers understand
that they've *given up* a lot of their crash protection?

My 1995 K1500 has a brushguard/grilleguard mounted on the front. Bought
the truck used & outfitted this way. Last year a silly juvenile female
pulled out in front of me from a side street - her fault & she got
ticketed. Totaled her Neon. I drove away with no radiator damage or
drivability problems because that brushguard crushed sideways. Saved me
big bucks & aggravation until I got it fixed.

[cantrelm]

Richard, in your article you make a point of saying "I used Grade 5 bolts
since ungraded hardware is not suitable for load-bearing applications. "
You do realize that the bumper you are attaching to is only 3/32" thick and
is not rated for load bearing applications....... This is somewhat of a
contradiction don't you think?

Tom

Post by Richard J Kinch

Perhaps his next project should be to design a real bumper for his TJ ...

Bad idea. Bumpers are weaker than the frame so they absorb impact energy
instead of bending the frame. You put a heavy bumper (or a frame hitch for
that matter) on the back of your car, and many collisions are going to
result in frame damage that would have just been a simple bolt-on swap of a
new bumper.
On a previous rear-ended TJ I was able to replace a crunched back bumper
with a $25 OEM item from eBay (surplus to somebody's aftermarket upgrade)
with hand tools. The other guy had $1000s in damage.
I wonder if people buying all those macho aftermarket bumpers understand
that they've *given up* a lot of their crash protection?

[Mike Romain]

I'll bet he also didn't think about what happens if he front ends
someone while pulling the trailer. He will have a thousand pound plus
spear running right through that sheet metal bumper, right through the
door, seat and anything/body else in it's way...

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Post by cantrelm
Richard, in your article you make a point of saying "I used Grade 5 bolts
since ungraded hardware is not suitable for load-bearing applications. "
You do realize that the bumper you are attaching to is only 3/32" thick and
is not rated for load bearing applications....... This is somewhat of a
contradiction don't you think?
Tom

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by "Grumman-581" @gmail.com>
Perhaps his next project should be to design a real bumper for his TJ

...

Post by Richard J Kinch
Bad idea. Bumpers are weaker than the frame so they absorb impact energy
instead of bending the frame. You put a heavy bumper (or a frame hitch

for

Post by Richard J Kinch
that matter) on the back of your car, and many collisions are going to
result in frame damage that would have just been a simple bolt-on swap of

a

Post by Richard J Kinch
new bumper.
On a previous rear-ended TJ I was able to replace a crunched back bumper
with a $25 OEM item from eBay (surplus to somebody's aftermarket upgrade)
with hand tools. The other guy had $1000s in damage.
I wonder if people buying all those macho aftermarket bumpers understand
that they've *given up* a lot of their crash protection?

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by Mike Romain
I'll bet he also didn't think about what happens if he front ends
someone while pulling the trailer. He will have a thousand pound plus
spear running right through that sheet metal bumper, right through the
door, seat and anything/body else in it's way

Between the coupler and the vehicle interior is 40 square inches of 3/8
steel, and a beefy frame cross-member in front of that.

In such a collision, I would expect the rubber boat is going to be ripped
off its hold-down straps, launch forward, hit the back of the car, bounce
off and pitch-pole over the car.

Of course, if you want to start postulating arbitrarily forceful
collisions, then some scenario is going to have a trailer axle or something
through my eye socket.

Please, I'm just trying to get my toy boat and waverunner trailer 6 miles
down to the beach.

[billy ray]

The last time I hauled a rubber boat it was atop my WJ.... How dangerous was
that?

Post by Richard J Kinch
Please, I'm just trying to get my toy boat and waverunner trailer 6 miles
down to the beach.

[Andrew VK3BFA]

Post by billy ray
The last time I hauled a rubber boat it was atop my WJ.... How dangerous was
that?

Post by Richard J Kinch
Please, I'm just trying to get my toy boat and waverunner trailer 6 miles
down to the beach.

Can I throw in my 10 cents worth here?. I am NOT an engineer - I saw
the drawing, thought, MM, thats looks pretty cool. Subsequent
discussion here tells me it is not. How would I know otherwise ? - I
dont have the depth of engineering knowledge to see what looks like a
reasonable trailer hitch and know that I should be careful? - could I
humbly suggest that a sticker saying "max towing weight 1,000lbs" be
put on the thing? - yes, Richard, you designed and built it for a
specific application, you know what NOT to do - but what about the next
owner? - they wont know.....

This is one of the resons that there are standards - not only to (try
to) protect the stupid, but also the rest of us who dont have a high
degree of knowledge and skill in fields other than their own. And, in
this case, I readily admit to being one of those ignorant people. My
field is electronics, not mechanical or automotive engineering.

But it was a nice posting - know a bit more about the subject now, so
thanks folks - glad groups like this are around....

Andrew VK3BFA.

[Earle Horton]

"Andrew VK3BFA" <***@alphalink.com.au> wrote in message news:***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
---snippy---

- could I humbly suggest that a sticker saying
"max towing weight 1,000lbs" be put on the thing? -

I like this one. http://tinyurl.com/cel57

Earle

[cantrelm]

Good one Earle.

Tom

Post by Earle Horton
---snippy---

- could I humbly suggest that a sticker saying
"max towing weight 1,000lbs" be put on the thing? -

I like this one. http://tinyurl.com/cel57
Earle

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by Andrew VK3BFA
could I
humbly suggest that a sticker saying "max towing weight 1,000lbs" be
put on the thing?

If it ever came down to a situation where someone would read it, and heed
it, then I might do something like that. For my personal use, why bother.
(On the other hand, I've never had much use for that steel punch stamping
kit, maybe I'll stamp it on there for that Canadian trip someday, heh heh.)

This whole culture of Jeep hitches has me baffled. People insist on
putting class III hitches on a short-wheelbase soft-top vehicle that
dubiously purports even a minimal 2000 lb capacity. The guys who also have
the jacked-up suspensions, cheating death with their unstable aftermarket
mods, are the extreme version of this.

THere is a kind of "impedance matching" optimization to this type of
design, and I believe I've approximated it for the intended application.

[billy ray]

Maybe you need something like this:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2122772921&idx=40

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by Andrew VK3BFA
could I
humbly suggest that a sticker saying "max towing weight 1,000lbs" be
put on the thing?

If it ever came down to a situation where someone would read it, and heed
it, then I might do something like that. For my personal use, why bother.
(On the other hand, I've never had much use for that steel punch stamping
kit, maybe I'll stamp it on there for that Canadian trip someday, heh heh.)
This whole culture of Jeep hitches has me baffled. People insist on
putting class III hitches on a short-wheelbase soft-top vehicle that
dubiously purports even a minimal 2000 lb capacity. The guys who also have
the jacked-up suspensions, cheating death with their unstable aftermarket
mods, are the extreme version of this.
THere is a kind of "impedance matching" optimization to this type of
design, and I believe I've approximated it for the intended application.

[Mike Romain]

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by Andrew VK3BFA
could I
humbly suggest that a sticker saying "max towing weight 1,000lbs" be
put on the thing?

If it ever came down to a situation where someone would read it, and heed
it, then I might do something like that. For my personal use, why bother.
(On the other hand, I've never had much use for that steel punch stamping
kit, maybe I'll stamp it on there for that Canadian trip someday, heh heh.)
This whole culture of Jeep hitches has me baffled. People insist on
putting class III hitches on a short-wheelbase soft-top vehicle that
dubiously purports even a minimal 2000 lb capacity. The guys who also have
the jacked-up suspensions, cheating death with their unstable aftermarket
mods, are the extreme version of this.
THere is a kind of "impedance matching" optimization to this type of
design, and I believe I've approximated it for the intended application.

Bull crap.

You are attaching a trailer to sheet metal that 'I' am capable of
bending back into shape by hand.

Overbuilding an attachment point is a safety thing. Off road stresses
can be amazingly high. Putting an attachment point on sheet metal is
almost criminal. Well, it 'is' criminal up here in Canada to have an
under rated trailer hitch.

The rental places won't rent to soft top vehicles. This is because of a
serious CO safety issue when the exhaust vortexes between the back of
the Jeep and the trailer.

I know there is no talking sense to you. I just hope you don't go out
and kill someone.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

[Andrew VK3BFA]

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by Andrew VK3BFA
could I
humbly suggest that a sticker saying "max towing weight 1,000lbs" be
put on the thing?

If it ever came down to a situation where someone would read it, and heed
it, then I might do something like that. For my personal use, why bother.
(On the other hand, I've never had much use for that steel punch stamping
kit, maybe I'll stamp it on there for that Canadian trip someday, heh heh.)

*******sigh******** I'm probably pissing into the wind on this one, but
here goes anyway. Why not just do it, cover the situation where
"Someone Else" might be tempted to overload it. This is called
engineering. Plan for the worse.

Post by Richard J Kinch
This whole culture of Jeep hitches has me baffled. People insist on
putting class III hitches on a short-wheelbase soft-top vehicle that
dubiously purports even a minimal 2000 lb capacity. The guys who also have
the jacked-up suspensions, cheating death with their unstable aftermarket
mods, are the extreme version of this.

The rev head culture amazes me too sometimes. Driving to the local
shops in a 2 ton 4wd vehicle fitted out to blast through the Amazon
Jungle defies logic. But as long as they dont do anything to kill me,
they are welcome to it. So, by your logic, refusing to take even
minimal precautions against misuse is OK because "other people" do even
more stupid things. Do you write software this way?

Post by Richard J Kinch
THere is a kind of "impedance matching" optimization to this type of
design, and I believe I've approximated it for the intended application.

Written by a true, tunnel vision, engineer. A pity that the rest of
the world doesnt, or cant think like this.

Richard, you posted the design on this group. People responded. You
negate any feedback you receive. They are not personal attacks - at
least, not until you started responding in a silly manner.

One of the beginnings of maturity is recognising how little you know as
an individual. Intelligence is then finding the information you need to
overcome this. It is not just "Jeep trailer hitches" - its for the rest
of your life, and your life to date, as well. Think about this -
please - your life might start to get better and less confrontational.

Anderw VK3BFA.

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by Andrew VK3BFA
Why not just do it, cover the situation where
"Someone Else" might be tempted to overload it. This is called
engineering. Plan for the worse.

I am an engineer.

I define engineering as the economical application of scientific
knowledge to a physical application.

To "plan for the worse" is not engineering, if the worst is not worth
planning for. It is spending too much on the biggest and baddest in the
catalog, which is the anti-engineering mentality of "I built it as
strong as possible, so I didn't have to think about it, nothing more
could have been done". You don't build a wooden crate when a cardboard
box will do, even though it won't stand up to a gorilla jumping on it.

Look, the item tows my boat, economically, and with some material
analysis, albeit casual. It does not fit the worst case, nor is it
intended to.

Post by Andrew VK3BFA
One of the beginnings of maturity is recognising how little you know
as an individual.

Ya gotta love Usenet. Posters simulating critical thought with
platitudes, without knowing who they are talking to.

[Andrew VK3BFA]

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by Andrew VK3BFA
Why not just do it, cover the situation where
"Someone Else" might be tempted to overload it. This is called
engineering. Plan for the worse.

I am an engineer.
I define engineering as the economical application of scientific
knowledge to a physical application.

Nah. Thats cost accounting. Design and manufacture something with the
minimal cost and effort that will just do the job with no margin for
error. When it fails, refer to "Definition of Engineering" and blame
the customer for their lack of knowledge.

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by Andrew VK3BFA
One of the beginnings of maturity is recognising how little you know
as an individual.

Ya gotta love Usenet. Posters simulating critical thought with
platitudes, without knowing who they are talking to.

Sorry, wasnt aware I was talking to "an engineer". I apologise. Please
forgive me for my ignorant comments.

Andrew VK3BFA.

[Earle Horton]

Richard,

I like your definition of engineering. I guess I am a successful engineer,
because I worked for exactly six years, three months after I got out of
school, and I have been retired for eleven years since. I call that "the
economical application of scientific knowledge to a physical application".
Sure I could have worked for twice as long, had a couple heart attacks, and
there would be enough money for my widow, kids and grandkids to never have
to be afraid of poverty or hunger again. There is a parallel here, and
someday I am going to figure out what it is. Until then, you keep doing
what you are doing.

"Posters simulating critical thought with platitudes", I love this. Please
feel free to post here again, the next time you engineer something. ;^)

Earle

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by Andrew VK3BFA
Why not just do it, cover the situation where
"Someone Else" might be tempted to overload it. This is called
engineering. Plan for the worse.

I am an engineer.
I define engineering as the economical application of scientific
knowledge to a physical application.
To "plan for the worse" is not engineering, if the worst is not worth
planning for. It is spending too much on the biggest and baddest in the
catalog, which is the anti-engineering mentality of "I built it as
strong as possible, so I didn't have to think about it, nothing more
could have been done". You don't build a wooden crate when a cardboard
box will do, even though it won't stand up to a gorilla jumping on it.
Look, the item tows my boat, economically, and with some material
analysis, albeit casual. It does not fit the worst case, nor is it
intended to.

Post by Andrew VK3BFA
One of the beginnings of maturity is recognising how little you know
as an individual.

Ya gotta love Usenet. Posters simulating critical thought with
platitudes, without knowing who they are talking to.

[FrankW]

If you get in an accident and someone gets hurt.
only then, is when it really counts. You may get charged.
I've seen hitches like yours and it was bent all to hell.
Don't be stupid/cheap, pay the 150 fricken dollars for a proper hitch
and be safe! This is NOT Microsoft where failures are sorta O.K.
Dag nab it.

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by Andrew VK3BFA
Why not just do it, cover the situation where
"Someone Else" might be tempted to overload it. This is called
engineering. Plan for the worse.

I am an engineer.
I define engineering as the economical application of scientific
knowledge to a physical application.
To "plan for the worse" is not engineering, if the worst is not worth
planning for. It is spending too much on the biggest and baddest in the
catalog, which is the anti-engineering mentality of "I built it as
strong as possible, so I didn't have to think about it, nothing more
could have been done". You don't build a wooden crate when a cardboard
box will do, even though it won't stand up to a gorilla jumping on it.
Look, the item tows my boat, economically, and with some material
analysis, albeit casual. It does not fit the worst case, nor is it
intended to.

Post by Andrew VK3BFA
One of the beginnings of maturity is recognising how little you know
as an individual.

Ya gotta love Usenet. Posters simulating critical thought with
platitudes, without knowing who they are talking to.

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by FrankW
You may get charged.

Debunked earlier in this thread.

[Mike Romain]

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by FrankW
You may get charged.

Debunked earlier in this thread.

Ok, now you are just being plain stupid sir.

You can be 'sure' if something happens and that home made hitch lets go
and your trailer goes off and kills someone you will be charged.

Even in good ol Florida.

Your 'debunk' said nothing at all and I looked.

It was a BS smokescreen link that didn't cover the law about the
structure of the attachment point or cover carrying a load too big for
the hitch or vehicle.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by Mike Romain
You can be 'sure' if something happens and that home made hitch lets go
and your trailer goes off and kills someone you will be charged.

Still bunk.

Simply driving, nothing is going to "happen" with this hitch. In a
collision, the violation and/or liability is with the driver at fault for
the collision. Not with the hitch or its owner.

"Home made" has *nothing* to do with it.

Read the law. I cited it earlier. Florida makes absolutely no specific
technical requirements for hitches, only that you have "sufficient strength
to pull all weight towed" and that you have safety chains or other 49 CFR
devices. You can tow with overcooked spaghetti if it has "sufficient
strength".

People tow cars with rope and granny knots every day. Nothing illegal about
it.

[cantrelm]

Thank God I live in Georgia, and it is illegal to tow with " ropes an granny
knots ". Up here you get ticketed for not have a proper hitch. Just goes
to show you that the Transplanted Yankees in Florida have had there brains
fried too long out in all that sun!!!!

Richard being as how you have a Ph.D. I am going to assume you know the
difference between ignorant and stupid. Well you can't say that you are
ignorant, as too many people in here have tried to educate you on this
matter, so what choice does that leave us with to describe you?

Tom

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by Mike Romain
You can be 'sure' if something happens and that home made hitch lets go
and your trailer goes off and kills someone you will be charged.

Still bunk.
Simply driving, nothing is going to "happen" with this hitch. In a
collision, the violation and/or liability is with the driver at fault for
the collision. Not with the hitch or its owner.
"Home made" has *nothing* to do with it.
Read the law. I cited it earlier. Florida makes absolutely no specific
technical requirements for hitches, only that you have "sufficient strength
to pull all weight towed" and that you have safety chains or other 49 CFR
devices. You can tow with overcooked spaghetti if it has "sufficient
strength".
People tow cars with rope and granny knots every day. Nothing illegal about
it.

[Richard J Kinch]

... people in here have tried to educate you on this matter ...

They have educated me as to their casual opinions in conflict with concrete
experience. Normal Usenet flux.

I'd be surprised if as you assert Georgia doesn't allow towing with rope.
But I couldn't find the relevant statute, maybe you can:

http://www.legis.state.ga.us/cgi-bin/gl_codes_detail.pl

[billy ray]

The link below is to a page in the Florida Fish and Wildlife
Conservation website. I will assume, with the known limitations therein,
that it may be taken as an 'official" publication

Please see paragraphs 4 & 5 in section 1
Please see paragraph 5 in section 2
Please see illustration 2
http://www.boat-ed.com/fl/course/p2-4_trailering.htm

You hitch design may be legal in Florida.... assuming that you can get the
data from the DC engineering departments for "the weight rating of the
bumper. "

However the factory manual shows the only approved (by DC) methods of
attaching a towbar. In my XJ manual it is section 13 pages 7 & 8.

Does someone have a Wrangler manual that can check and post the appropriate
pages in the Frames & Bumpers section?

Post by Richard J Kinch

... people in here have tried to educate you on this matter ...

They have educated me as to their casual opinions in conflict with concrete
experience. Normal Usenet flux.
I'd be surprised if as you assert Georgia doesn't allow towing with rope.
http://www.legis.state.ga.us/cgi-bin/gl_codes_detail.pl

[cantrelm]

Jeep Wrangler Owners Manual.

I have one and it states:

"Trailer Towing Requirements:
Class I Hitch (Light Duty) for towing trailers with a Gross Trailer Weight
of up to and not exceeding 2,000 lbs. (907kg).
2.5L, engine with 5-speed Manual or any 4.0L engine / transmission
combination.
CAUTION!
Do not use a bumper mounted clamp-on tow bar on your vehicle. The bumper
face bar will be damaged."

Nuff said!

Tom

Post by billy ray
The link below is to a page in the Florida Fish and Wildlife
Conservation website. I will assume, with the known limitations therein,
that it may be taken as an 'official" publication
Please see paragraphs 4 & 5 in section 1
Please see paragraph 5 in section 2
Please see illustration 2
http://www.boat-ed.com/fl/course/p2-4_trailering.htm
You hitch design may be legal in Florida.... assuming that you can get the
data from the DC engineering departments for "the weight rating of the
bumper. "
However the factory manual shows the only approved (by DC) methods of
attaching a towbar. In my XJ manual it is section 13 pages 7 & 8.
Does someone have a Wrangler manual that can check and post the appropriate
pages in the Frames & Bumpers section?

[billy ray]

Richard,

I will respect that you have made all the proper calculations on your boat
and trailer weights and have for your education know the strength parameters
and limitations of the Jeep Wrangler bumper attachment system.

That being said many of the people replying to you have years or decades of
practical experience and many, myself included, have seen vehicles with
their rear bumpers twisted or pulled off by what they were towing.

Imagine, if you will, a scene we all hope will never happen where you are in
a courtroom with your spreadsheet defending your calculations and
workmanship. The county prosecutor then calls a representative from Reese,
Hidden Hitch, Valley, etc and asks them to display all the hitches they
manufacture that fit the Wrangler.

The will come in on carts, of course, as they weigh in at 20+ pounds. The
drawbars themselves are 3/4 inch steel the crossbars 1.25 or 2 inch steel
pipe or tube, and the attachment plates while only 1/4 inch thick are 4-6
inches wide and attached by 1/2 inch grade 5 or 8 bolts. He will then pick
up what is left of your bumper and twist it in his bare hands.

Are you wrong in an engineering point of view? No, but the jury is going to
send you to prison anyway because they won't understand why the industry
standard is 10x and yours wasn't.

Then you get to go home and explain, again, to your bride why her youngest
child died. All the spreadsheets in the world won't convince her it was
unforeseeable and unpreventable..

Please do not let your professional pride prevent you from installing a
hitch that is vastly in excess of your requirements. There are 6 listed on
eBay at this moment with bids of less than $30. (search term: Wrangler
hitch)

Post by Richard J Kinch

... people in here have tried to educate you on this matter ...

They have educated me as to their casual opinions in conflict with concrete
experience. Normal Usenet flux.
I'd be surprised if as you assert Georgia doesn't allow towing with rope.
http://www.legis.state.ga.us/cgi-bin/gl_codes_detail.pl

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by billy ray
No, but the jury is going to
send you to prison anyway because they won't understand why the industry
standard is 10x and yours wasn't.

Nonsense. FS 316.530 is a "noncriminal traffic infraction."

Yeah, horrible accidents happen. The weak-hitch-equals-death analysis
makes a pleasant fictional scene, but unconvincing as to reality.

["Grumman-581" @gmail.com>]

Post by Richard J Kinch
Yeah, horrible accidents happen. The weak-hitch-equals-death analysis
makes a pleasant fictional scene, but unconvincing as to reality.

I'm a pilot, I've written embedded avionics software for commercial
aircraft, and I've written telemetry software for the Space Shuttle... I
have a MS in CS with a minor in EE... I guess that kind of classifies me as
an engineer... If there is a way that one small thing can go wrong and end
up killing someone, it definitely will sooner or later... A weak hitch could
result in a minor wreck developing into something much worse... Maybe the
initial fault of the wreck might be someone else's, but a poor design on
your part could definitely be argued as contributing to the severity of an
accident... At the very least, you might end up with damage to your vehicle
on a minor accident that you wouldn't with a more structurally sound bumper
/ hitch attachment point... Personally, I think that you should go with a 2"
receiver hitch since it gives you a lot more options for attachments other
than just a trailer hitch... Cargo carriers, bike racks, etc... Design it
right and you have a good attachment point for tow hooks so that you can get
extracted from places that you shouldn't have gone without a winch...

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by "Grumman-581" @gmail.com>
If there is a way that one small thing can go wrong and end
up killing someone, it definitely will sooner or later...

Definitely will? On my car? Possibly, but not definitely. Probability is
something often misconstrued.

I can see reasonable scenarios that a weak hitch is *beneficial*. Strong
enough for towing, but if your rig gets t-boned behind you, it breaks away
without further involving the tow vehicle.

[Lon]

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by FrankW
You may get charged.

Debunked earlier in this thread.

Rebunked. And even more happy instance, you can have your heinie sued
off even if you weren't cited for excessive carelessness and wanton
stupidity.

[Bruce L. Bergman]

Post by Lon

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by FrankW
You may get charged.

Debunked earlier in this thread.

Rebunked. And even more happy instance, you can have your heinie sued
off even if you weren't cited for excessive carelessness and wanton
stupidity.

Rebunked agreed - There's nothing wrong with the design of the hitch
plate you made itself, it looks plenty strong for the intended
purpose, but the structural integrity of the bumper you /attached it
to/ is a complete unknown.

Since the Feds stopped requiring bumpers to survive 2-1/2 and 5 MPH
crash tests car and light truck bumpers are pretty much beauty items
only, and some (especially the ones not designed as a trailer hitch)
are virtually stamped from tissue paper and then chromed. You
admitted it yourself that they're made to crumple - and you can't
count on strength in towing from a known weak structure.

I would strongly suggest you go get a proper receiver hitch made
that is tucked under the car, and remove the drawbar whenever you
aren't using it - and if you do get hit in the rear, that tissue paper
bumper will be the item hanging out there to get hit and try to absorb
the forces. (Not.) But hey, it's your liability, not mine.

Nothing will likely happen to you legally now, the cops don't go
around inspecting people's trailer hitches on a whim - until the hitch
fails.

If and when it fails while on a public street or highway, and the
trailer wanders off and kills someone or does some serious property
damage, they are going to send out an officer (local or state,
depending) to investigate and write the reports. And if the LEO sees
a mangled mess on the back of the car that let go, they'll probably
(as the old saw goes) "throw the book at you".

The Officers can easily reconstruct the accident scene - there are
trained Major Accident Investigation Teams that do nothing but this,
every day. They figure how fast everyone was going, do the math on
the forces involved on the bumper in the accident, and prove that the
weak link was the hitch that let go. They can prove that a properly
designed hitch would have held under 2X to 4X (or more) of the forces
involved in that incident - so whoever made that hitch is at fault.

In California, this would be one of the brickbats in said book:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d13/vc29003.htm

Post by Lon
Hitch, Coupling Device or Connection, or Tow Dolly
29003. (a) Every hitch or coupling device used as a means of
attaching the towed and towing vehicles shall be properly and
securely mounted and be structurally adequate for the weight
drawn. The mounting of the hitch or coupling device on the
towing and towed vehicle shall include sufficient reinforcement
or bracing of the frame to provide sufficient strength and
rigidity to prevent undue distortion of the frame.
(b) The drawbar, tongue, or other connection between the towing
and towed vehicles shall be securely attached and structurally
adequate for the weight drawn.
(c) The raised end of any motor vehicle being transported by
another motor vehicle using a tow dolly shall be secured to
the tow dolly by two separate chains, cables, or equivalent
devices adequate to prevent shifting or separation of the
towed vehicle and the tow dolly.
Amended Ch. 708, Stats. 1983. Effective January 1, 1984.

Yes, you are in Florida - but most vehicle codes are similar.

--<< Bruce >>--

[cantrelm]

I agree fully with Bruce.
The 3/8" x 4" angle is plenty sturdy enough. That is not what everyone is
complaining about. It is the 3/32" sheet you have attached it too that is
not strong enough for a load.....Remember that a chain is only as strong as
its weakest link and the weakest link hear is the 3/32" stock bumper!

But hey that is okay..... I just hope you sleep well after that bumper rips
through and your trailer and angle hitch go veering off and hurt
someone......

Get over yourself and stop being such a cheapskate! You seem to take pride
in your cheapness and stupidity.......

Tom

Post by Bruce L. Bergman

Post by Lon

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by FrankW
You may get charged.

Debunked earlier in this thread.

Rebunked. And even more happy instance, you can have your heinie sued
off even if you weren't cited for excessive carelessness and wanton
stupidity.

Rebunked agreed - There's nothing wrong with the design of the hitch
plate you made itself, it looks plenty strong for the intended
purpose, but the structural integrity of the bumper you /attached it
to/ is a complete unknown.
Since the Feds stopped requiring bumpers to survive 2-1/2 and 5 MPH
crash tests car and light truck bumpers are pretty much beauty items
only, and some (especially the ones not designed as a trailer hitch)
are virtually stamped from tissue paper and then chromed. You
admitted it yourself that they're made to crumple - and you can't
count on strength in towing from a known weak structure.
I would strongly suggest you go get a proper receiver hitch made
that is tucked under the car, and remove the drawbar whenever you
aren't using it - and if you do get hit in the rear, that tissue paper
bumper will be the item hanging out there to get hit and try to absorb
the forces. (Not.) But hey, it's your liability, not mine.
Nothing will likely happen to you legally now, the cops don't go
around inspecting people's trailer hitches on a whim - until the hitch
fails.
If and when it fails while on a public street or highway, and the
trailer wanders off and kills someone or does some serious property
damage, they are going to send out an officer (local or state,
depending) to investigate and write the reports. And if the LEO sees
a mangled mess on the back of the car that let go, they'll probably
(as the old saw goes) "throw the book at you".
The Officers can easily reconstruct the accident scene - there are
trained Major Accident Investigation Teams that do nothing but this,
every day. They figure how fast everyone was going, do the math on
the forces involved on the bumper in the accident, and prove that the
weak link was the hitch that let go. They can prove that a properly
designed hitch would have held under 2X to 4X (or more) of the forces
involved in that incident - so whoever made that hitch is at fault.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d13/vc29003.htm

Post by Lon
Hitch, Coupling Device or Connection, or Tow Dolly
29003. (a) Every hitch or coupling device used as a means of
attaching the towed and towing vehicles shall be properly and
securely mounted and be structurally adequate for the weight
drawn. The mounting of the hitch or coupling device on the
towing and towed vehicle shall include sufficient reinforcement
or bracing of the frame to provide sufficient strength and
rigidity to prevent undue distortion of the frame.
(b) The drawbar, tongue, or other connection between the towing
and towed vehicles shall be securely attached and structurally
adequate for the weight drawn.
(c) The raised end of any motor vehicle being transported by
another motor vehicle using a tow dolly shall be secured to
the tow dolly by two separate chains, cables, or equivalent
devices adequate to prevent shifting or separation of the
towed vehicle and the tow dolly.
Amended Ch. 708, Stats. 1983. Effective January 1, 1984.

Yes, you are in Florida - but most vehicle codes are similar.
--<< Bruce >>--
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 [phone]
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by Bruce L. Bergman
They figure how fast everyone was going, do the math on
the forces involved on the bumper in the accident, and prove that the
weak link was the hitch that let go. They can prove that a properly
designed hitch would have held under 2X to 4X (or more) of the forces
involved in that incident - so whoever made that hitch is at fault.

Baloney.

The (Florida) law requires a hitch to be of "sufficient strength to pull
all weight towed thereby". There is no "proper design" beyond that. The
performance in a *collision* is of no legal significance. The liability is
strictly with the at-fault driver(s).

By your "proper design" theory, you could be sued for driving a Hyundai
instead of a Humvee. It's your fault you got hurt riding in a tinfoil car,
not that somebody rear-ended you.

You can beef up your vehicle to take a meteorite hit, but it will be no
more or less liability in a collision.

[Dave Milne]

Nobody will claim you need 1/2" steel for your hitch. However, engineering
is usually about designing in safety margins to ensure people don't get
hurt. Your tyres are engineered to take a much greater load than is applied
by your Jeep, for example.

So the rest is philosophy ; given it won't fall off in an ideal situation -
how much of a safety margin are you prepared to begrudgingly spend your
cents on ? I guess the answer is "less than anyone else".

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

Post by Richard J Kinch
I am an engineer.
I define engineering as the economical application of scientific
knowledge to a physical application.
To "plan for the worse" is not engineering, if the worst is not worth
planning for.

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by cantrelm
Richard, in your article you make a point of saying "I used Grade 5
bolts since ungraded hardware is not suitable for load-bearing
applications. " You do realize that the bumper you are attaching to is
only 3/32" thick and is not rated for load bearing applications.......
This is somewhat of a contradiction don't you think?

The bumper is suitable for load-bearing, for a suitable load.

One problem I understand with ungraded bolts sized about 1/2 inch or
smaller is that hand-tightening torque can stress the shaft close to the
working limit, leaving not enough strength for the applied load. This is
not an issue for the bumper itself.

[cantrelm]

Richard,
If the bumper were suitable for load-bearing then why does Jeep not sell
this simple little option. I have to say that I am impressed with your web
page, you have lots of nice stuff on there and seem to be a guy that is
somewhat intelligent, but this is not one of your better ideas. There is a
reason you can not buy a Jeep with a bumper hitch option on it. I would
think that the Jeep engineers know what they are doing, and if you want
towing on a Jeep it comes with a separate (mopar) draw hitch attached
directly to the frame rails and not the cross member. These components were
not designed for this application plain and simple....... I am no engineer
but I do work with metal every day, (build poultry processing equipment) and
I have seen what can happen to 3/32" steel when a load is applied, trust me
it does not take much to rip this stuff in half. I wish you luck with it
and I hope that no one ever gets hurt from what I think is a bad idea. If
you would like I would be glad to sell you my 1 1/4" receiver hitch (mopar
1000lbs on 4 cylinder, 2000lbs on 6 with a max tongue of 200lbs) after I
have finished my bumper that I am currently in the process of making.......
I would let you have it for a very reasonable price if it means that you
would take that thing off and never let it see the light of day again.......

Tom

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by cantrelm
Richard, in your article you make a point of saying "I used Grade 5
bolts since ungraded hardware is not suitable for load-bearing
applications. " You do realize that the bumper you are attaching to is
only 3/32" thick and is not rated for load bearing applications.......
This is somewhat of a contradiction don't you think?

The bumper is suitable for load-bearing, for a suitable load.
One problem I understand with ungraded bolts sized about 1/2 inch or
smaller is that hand-tightening torque can stress the shaft close to the
working limit, leaving not enough strength for the applied load. This is
not an issue for the bumper itself.

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by cantrelm
If the bumper were suitable for load-bearing then why does Jeep not sell
this simple little option.

Not probative. I recall they didn't sell any kind of hitch option for a
long time; it was all unendorsed aftermarket stuff.

Last I checked, U-Haul won't even rent you a trailer for a Jeep, no matter
what hitch you have.

Trailering on a Jeep is a problematic compromise (when it is not a
religious absolute in some minds).

[cantrelm]

Richard,
"Not probative." oh please.
I really hope your arrogance does not get someone hurt.

Tom

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by cantrelm
If the bumper were suitable for load-bearing then why does Jeep not sell
this simple little option.

Not probative. I recall they didn't sell any kind of hitch option for a
long time; it was all unendorsed aftermarket stuff.
Last I checked, U-Haul won't even rent you a trailer for a Jeep, no matter
what hitch you have.
Trailering on a Jeep is a problematic compromise (when it is not a
religious absolute in some minds).

["Grumman-581" @gmail.com>]

Post by cantrelm
If the bumper were suitable for load-bearing then why does Jeep not sell
this simple little option.

One thing that I noticed that I would at least re-engineer a bit was the
fact that it appears that his hitch plate does not have a backing plate
behind the thin metal of the Jeep bumper... I would think that he should at
least have a backing plate as large as the hitch plate inside the bumper to
distribute the load across a greater area... An even better idea might be to
have this backing plate large enough to traverse the full with of the
bumper... Once you're at that point, maybe you should even consider having
this 'backing plate' tie in to the frame of the vehicle... Of course, by
this point, it would have probably been easier to just build a real bumper
from scratch... <grin>

Post by cantrelm
There is a reason you can not buy a Jeep with a bumper hitch
option on it. I would think that the Jeep engineers know what
they are doing,

Not a good analogy... These are the same engineers who designed the
problematic manifold that cracks and the motor mount bolts that haved
sheered off on my XJ multiple times?

[billy ray]

Who has the video of a rear bumper being ripped off while attempting to pull
another vehicle out of the snow alongside the road?

I saw a link to it sometime in the last 6 months or so...

Post by "Grumman-581" @gmail.com>

Post by cantrelm
If the bumper were suitable for load-bearing then why does Jeep not sell
this simple little option.

One thing that I noticed that I would at least re-engineer a bit was the
fact that it appears that his hitch plate does not have a backing plate
behind the thin metal of the Jeep bumper... I would think that he should at
least have a backing plate as large as the hitch plate inside the bumper to
distribute the load across a greater area... An even better idea might be to
have this backing plate large enough to traverse the full with of the
bumper... Once you're at that point, maybe you should even consider having
this 'backing plate' tie in to the frame of the vehicle... Of course, by
this point, it would have probably been easier to just build a real bumper
from scratch... <grin>

Post by cantrelm
There is a reason you can not buy a Jeep with a bumper hitch
option on it. I would think that the Jeep engineers know what
they are doing,

Not a good analogy... These are the same engineers who designed the
problematic manifold that cracks and the motor mount bolts that haved
sheered off on my XJ multiple times?

[cantrelm]

Billy,
I think you are referring to this video.
http://dtu.ifh.dk/Jokes/Film/web/snowtowcar.mpg.html

Tom

Post by billy ray
Who has the video of a rear bumper being ripped off while attempting to pull
another vehicle out of the snow alongside the road?
I saw a link to it sometime in the last 6 months or so...

["Grumman-581" @gmail.com>]

Post by cantrelm
Billy,
I think you are referring to this video.
http://dtu.ifh.dk/Jokes/Film/web/snowtowcar.mpg.html

This one's funny...
http://dtu.ifh.dk/Jokes/Film/web/topbike.mpeg.html

[billy ray]

Well.... there is no Jeep in that one but it is a good illustration on the
strength of bumper supports..

Post by cantrelm
Billy,
I think you are referring to this video.
http://dtu.ifh.dk/Jokes/Film/web/snowtowcar.mpg.html
Tom

Post by billy ray
Who has the video of a rear bumper being ripped off while attempting to

pull

Post by billy ray
another vehicle out of the snow alongside the road?
I saw a link to it sometime in the last 6 months or so...

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by "Grumman-581" @gmail.com>
One thing that I noticed that I would at least re-engineer a bit was the
fact that it appears that his hitch plate does not have a backing plate
...

A (smaller) backing plate is only a glorified washer, good only against
shearing through the attachment point. The rest of the bumper will have
failed before that happens, so it adds nothing.

A larger backing plate would be tantamount to replacing the bumper with a
stronger cross-member, and at that point you might as well put on a frame-
mounted hitch instead of using the bumper.

[Mike Romain]

If you get pulled over by the highway patrol, you will/should get busted
for something as dumb as that. Not meaning to be a jerk or anything but
Wow...

The bumper isn't rated for towing or even jacking up under so
technically that is an illegal hitch, let alone an unsafe one.

The TJ bumper isn't even strong enough to tow a TJ out of a snowbank
without bending or tearing off, let alone pulling almost the 'legal'
limit that the TJ can handle which is 2000 lb. Your 1000 lb boat, plus
trailer, plus gear inside is easily the limit.

Sorry man, it just isn't a good idea.

Just FYI, even the expensive 2" receiver bumpers with the 2" hitch built
in have a warning on them that says they are 'not' legal for towing,
only legal for putting a bike rack or some other type of rack into.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Post by Richard J Kinch
http://www.truetex.com/jeep_trailer_hitch_bracket.htm

[Earle Horton]

Mike, you're in Canada. I once passed an accident scene, where failure to
use safety chains, led to a boat trailer coming loose from the tow vehicle,
jumping through an oncoming vehicle's windshield and killing the driver.
The driver of the tow vehicle got a faulty equipment citation, but was
allowed to hook up again and drive home! On the way back from wherever I
had been going, I saw him hooking up the trailer, with help from the state
patrol. Now the law in Colorado says, that safety chains are required, and
legally a manslaughter prosecution would not have been out of line here. It
didn't happen. Maybe the guy paid a fine, but I doubt it.

That is one of the things, that helped me decide to move to western
Colorado. The law is the same there, but the number density of jerks like
that is less, and you have more chances to avoid them.

I have one of those bumpers you are talking about. I use it for a bike
rack.

Earle

Post by Mike Romain
If you get pulled over by the highway patrol, you will/should get busted
for something as dumb as that. Not meaning to be a jerk or anything but
Wow...
The bumper isn't rated for towing or even jacking up under so
technically that is an illegal hitch, let alone an unsafe one.
The TJ bumper isn't even strong enough to tow a TJ out of a snowbank
without bending or tearing off, let alone pulling almost the 'legal'
limit that the TJ can handle which is 2000 lb. Your 1000 lb boat, plus
trailer, plus gear inside is easily the limit.
Sorry man, it just isn't a good idea.
Just FYI, even the expensive 2" receiver bumpers with the 2" hitch built
in have a warning on them that says they are 'not' legal for towing,
only legal for putting a bike rack or some other type of rack into.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Post by Richard J Kinch
http://www.truetex.com/jeep_trailer_hitch_bracket.htm

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by Mike Romain
If you get pulled over by the highway patrol, you will/should get
busted for something as dumb as that. Not meaning to be a jerk or
anything but Wow...

Jerk or not, your legal opinion is baloney.

http://www.google.com/search?q=florida+statutes+316.530

Show me where hitch ratings have any legal significance in traffic laws.

Post by Mike Romain
The bumper isn't rated for towing or even jacking up under so
technically that is an illegal hitch, let alone an unsafe one.

The stock bumper is essentially a 3 x 4.5 inch 3.5-sided 13 gage steel
box beam 50 inches long. Maybe someone can calculate the strength of
this member.

We're talking about towing a small rig under 1000 lbs, not dragging the
universe behind.

My mechanical intuition is that it is plenty strong when properly
fitted. It doesn't visibly flex when I jump on the step.

[Mike Romain]

Good lord, how much do you weigh if you think 'you' can test the
strength of a bumper by jumping on it?

You 'are' talking towing something the legal limit for the vehicle, on
your website, 'not' a trailer and load under 1000 lb at all, but a 1000
lb boat 'plus' a trailer and most folks put gear in the boat.....

I got pulled over in Canada using a real DOT 'certified' trailer hitch
that wasn't rated heavy enough for the trailer I was pulling and I was
forced to drop the trailer on the road and wait for a tow truck at 3:00
AM. The cop luckily knew my passenger so didn't write me up the
$1000.00 in tickets he itemized for me....

You are talking about an unrated homemade hitch on a bumper that is not
tow rated at all. Phone your local DOT or highway patrol and ask about
that...

I don't really care, but a little shot of safety reality has to be
mentioned before too many people go out and copy your bad idea. This is
a world wide web after all.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by Mike Romain
If you get pulled over by the highway patrol, you will/should get
busted for something as dumb as that. Not meaning to be a jerk or
anything but Wow...

Jerk or not, your legal opinion is baloney.
http://www.google.com/search?q=florida+statutes+316.530
Show me where hitch ratings have any legal significance in traffic laws.

Post by Mike Romain
The bumper isn't rated for towing or even jacking up under so
technically that is an illegal hitch, let alone an unsafe one.

The stock bumper is essentially a 3 x 4.5 inch 3.5-sided 13 gage steel
box beam 50 inches long. Maybe someone can calculate the strength of
this member.
We're talking about towing a small rig under 1000 lbs, not dragging the
universe behind.
My mechanical intuition is that it is plenty strong when properly
fitted. It doesn't visibly flex when I jump on the step.

[billy ray]

Richard,

I think the reason for all the messages of concern you are receiving is that
most of us have seen far too many bumpers seemingly hanging on by the
strength of prayers and rust.

Bumper hitches were popular... decades ago when vehicles had substantial
bumpers.

The auto industry then went through a period where "bumpers" were little
more than chrome decoration bolted ONLY to sheet metal or fiberglass and
years where they were constructed of metal so thin that they could be
twisted by bare hands. I personally witnessed a bus driver twist, with his
bare hands, a AMC Gremlin bumper straight after a minor collision.

I don't know what the bumper attachments for your Jeep are but I know what
they look like in XJs and WJs and would personally feel uncomfortable
hauling a trailer bolted solely to the bumper.

My first concern was your use of four 3/8 inch bolts to hold the angle iron
to the bumper. When I installed a frame hitch on my XJ I used eight 1/2
inch stainless steel grade 5 bolts. I fully understand this was overkill but
I received additional reassurance by the expenditure of an additional $2.40

As an engineer you were certainly trained to design a product for it
intended use and then imagine what a complete moron might try to do with it
and calculate a sufficient safety factor.

You intent is to never tow anything more than your 1000 pound inflatable
boat/trailer. I will accept based on your education that it is properly
designed for that load. What about when your kids use it to pull the
homecoming parade float or your neighbor uses it to pull a trailer full of
gravel?

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by Mike Romain
If you get pulled over by the highway patrol, you will/should get
busted for something as dumb as that. Not meaning to be a jerk or
anything but Wow...

Jerk or not, your legal opinion is baloney.
http://www.google.com/search?q=florida+statutes+316.530
Show me where hitch ratings have any legal significance in traffic laws.

Post by Mike Romain
The bumper isn't rated for towing or even jacking up under so
technically that is an illegal hitch, let alone an unsafe one.

The stock bumper is essentially a 3 x 4.5 inch 3.5-sided 13 gage steel
box beam 50 inches long. Maybe someone can calculate the strength of
this member.
We're talking about towing a small rig under 1000 lbs, not dragging the
universe behind.
My mechanical intuition is that it is plenty strong when properly
fitted. It doesn't visibly flex when I jump on the step.

[Richard J Kinch]

I had the 1000 lb rig out for a test drive tonight after I finally got
the wiring done. No problems that I could detect.

Post by billy ray
I don't know what the bumper attachments for your Jeep are but I know
what they look like in XJs and WJs and would personally feel
uncomfortable hauling a trailer bolted solely to the bumper.

On the TJ the stock bumper mounts are substantial with nicely welded
seams to the box. They appear stronger than the rest of the bumper.

Post by billy ray
My first concern was your use of four 3/8 inch bolts to hold the angle
iron to the bumper.

Why a concern? The working strength of a 3/8 bolt exceeds the rest of
the components. and the applied loads.

Post by billy ray
You intent is to never tow anything more than your 1000 pound
inflatable boat/trailer. I will accept based on your education that
it is properly designed for that load. What about when your kids use
it to pull the homecoming parade float or your neighbor uses it to
pull a trailer full of gravel?

It is first-grade towing sense that you don't hook up loads larger than
the lowest-rated component of the tow vehicle (GTWR, hitch, drawbar,
etc), which in this case is a conservative 1000 lbs for a shop-built
bracket system.

If one holds that you should not install a hitch with a lower capacity
than an ignorant or careless user might someday attempt, then there is
no such hitch.

[Tomes]

Richard,
I also note upon looking at the setup again, that the safety chains would
attach to the same piece of metal that the hitch resides upon. If the weak
link here is the strength of the bumper material, having the chains attached
to the frame will help.

A while back in the thread, Mike painted a scenario where you might be
rear-ended and the trailer tongue shoots through the Jeep's tub. I have
actually had this happen to me. I have a pop-up camper towed by a Sienna.
While waiting to make a left turn, a van hit the back of the trailer hard.
Both the other van and the trailer were totaled. The tongue was indeed
pushed into the back of the Sienna and the force vector was straight in line
with the car's direction and also upward a bit. The upward tilt of the
hitch ball surprised me a bit, but there it was. I had to unbolt the whole
hitch and drop it to disconnect the trailer from the ball, as it was buried
up in the upper bumper. The combination of the Class 2 hitch and then the
frame of the Sienna absorbed it all, about $2500 worth of fixed damage to
the Sienna. I speculate that if I had an equivalent of this hitch design,
it would be likely that the trailer tongue would, in its upward vector,
pierce the rear of the tub and head for people in the seats.

At least safety chains attached to the frame instead of the part that is
(connected to at least) part of the failure might mitigate this. The chains
need to be of plenty of girth as well.

In other words, if the bumper is the weak point, and the chains are attached
to the metal attached to the bumper, the chains provide zero additional
help. They would only help if the trailer jumps off of the ball. I
advocate attaching them to the frame.
Tomes

Post by Richard J Kinch
http://www.truetex.com/jeep_trailer_hitch_bracket.htm

[Mike Romain]

You aren't likely to convince him. He 'thinks' he is edUcated so he
knows better.

I had some short blond in a large pickup ram into my utility trailer 3
times at a red light before I got out to see what the hell she was
doing. She was so short, she couldn't see the trailer and just couldn't
understand why she couldn't get closer to me.

That one wrecked a 'legal' trailer hitch and the tongue spear also
wanted to come up over the bumper. My bumper was a 'real' one so the
tongue didn't punch through it.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Post by billy ray
Richard,
I also note upon looking at the setup again, that the safety chains would
attach to the same piece of metal that the hitch resides upon. If the weak
link here is the strength of the bumper material, having the chains attached
to the frame will help.
A while back in the thread, Mike painted a scenario where you might be
rear-ended and the trailer tongue shoots through the Jeep's tub. I have
actually had this happen to me. I have a pop-up camper towed by a Sienna.
While waiting to make a left turn, a van hit the back of the trailer hard.
Both the other van and the trailer were totaled. The tongue was indeed
pushed into the back of the Sienna and the force vector was straight in line
with the car's direction and also upward a bit. The upward tilt of the
hitch ball surprised me a bit, but there it was. I had to unbolt the whole
hitch and drop it to disconnect the trailer from the ball, as it was buried
up in the upper bumper. The combination of the Class 2 hitch and then the
frame of the Sienna absorbed it all, about $2500 worth of fixed damage to
the Sienna. I speculate that if I had an equivalent of this hitch design,
it would be likely that the trailer tongue would, in its upward vector,
pierce the rear of the tub and head for people in the seats.
At least safety chains attached to the frame instead of the part that is
(connected to at least) part of the failure might mitigate this. The chains
need to be of plenty of girth as well.
In other words, if the bumper is the weak point, and the chains are attached
to the metal attached to the bumper, the chains provide zero additional
help. They would only help if the trailer jumps off of the ball. I
advocate attaching them to the frame.
Tomes

Post by Richard J Kinch
http://www.truetex.com/jeep_trailer_hitch_bracket.htm

[Tomes]

I know, Mike. It's just that the safety chain placement was left out of
this discussion and then I started to think about it when Bill posted about
chains. It does sound like he is married to this design; maybe better chain
placement, heavy chains **and correspondingly heavy hooks** (I forgot that
part) might mitigate things....

That is a story of yours there that made me laugh in an 'oh fine' kind of
way. I can just imagine that happening. "Will you stop that already??"
Interesting that your trailer tongue had an upward vector like mine did.
Thinking about it further, I am now betting that just about any trailer
crash will do this as the hitting vehicle will be higher than the trailer
frame, pushing down the trailer rear and thus raising the tongue spear.
Gotta have a system that can control this.

It is not just what you are towing, it is also covering what another
person's mistake can do.
Tomes

Post by Mike Romain
You aren't likely to convince him. He 'thinks' he is edUcated so he
knows better.
I had some short blond in a large pickup ram into my utility trailer 3
times at a red light before I got out to see what the hell she was
doing. She was so short, she couldn't see the trailer and just couldn't
understand why she couldn't get closer to me.
That one wrecked a 'legal' trailer hitch and the tongue spear also
wanted to come up over the bumper. My bumper was a 'real' one so the
tongue didn't punch through it.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Post by billy ray
Richard,
I also note upon looking at the setup again, that the safety chains would
attach to the same piece of metal that the hitch resides upon. If the weak
link here is the strength of the bumper material, having the chains attached
to the frame will help.
A while back in the thread, Mike painted a scenario where you might be
rear-ended and the trailer tongue shoots through the Jeep's tub. I have
actually had this happen to me. I have a pop-up camper towed by a Sienna.
While waiting to make a left turn, a van hit the back of the trailer hard.
Both the other van and the trailer were totaled. The tongue was indeed
pushed into the back of the Sienna and the force vector was straight in line
with the car's direction and also upward a bit. The upward tilt of the
hitch ball surprised me a bit, but there it was. I had to unbolt the whole
hitch and drop it to disconnect the trailer from the ball, as it was buried
up in the upper bumper. The combination of the Class 2 hitch and then the
frame of the Sienna absorbed it all, about $2500 worth of fixed damage to
the Sienna. I speculate that if I had an equivalent of this hitch design,
it would be likely that the trailer tongue would, in its upward vector,
pierce the rear of the tub and head for people in the seats.
At least safety chains attached to the frame instead of the part that is
(connected to at least) part of the failure might mitigate this. The chains
need to be of plenty of girth as well.
In other words, if the bumper is the weak point, and the chains are attached
to the metal attached to the bumper, the chains provide zero additional
help. They would only help if the trailer jumps off of the ball. I
advocate attaching them to the frame.
Tomes

Post by Richard J Kinch
http://www.truetex.com/jeep_trailer_hitch_bracket.htm

[Earle Horton]

If the OP uses safety chains he will wrap them around the bumper. I don't
know how many times I have seen this type of "design". Safety chains are
designed to cover operator error, in case the part that goes over the ball
pops off, from not being tightened enough or from a shock load it can't
stand. They are not designed to mitigate weaknesses in the actual hitch
"design".

Earle

Post by Tomes
I know, Mike. It's just that the safety chain placement was left out of
this discussion and then I started to think about it when Bill posted about
chains. It does sound like he is married to this design; maybe better chain
placement, heavy chains **and correspondingly heavy hooks** (I forgot that
part) might mitigate things....
That is a story of yours there that made me laugh in an 'oh fine' kind of
way. I can just imagine that happening. "Will you stop that already??"
Interesting that your trailer tongue had an upward vector like mine did.
Thinking about it further, I am now betting that just about any trailer
crash will do this as the hitting vehicle will be higher than the trailer
frame, pushing down the trailer rear and thus raising the tongue spear.
Gotta have a system that can control this.
It is not just what you are towing, it is also covering what another
person's mistake can do.
Tomes

Post by Mike Romain
You aren't likely to convince him. He 'thinks' he is edUcated so he
knows better.
I had some short blond in a large pickup ram into my utility trailer 3
times at a red light before I got out to see what the hell she was
doing. She was so short, she couldn't see the trailer and just couldn't
understand why she couldn't get closer to me.
That one wrecked a 'legal' trailer hitch and the tongue spear also
wanted to come up over the bumper. My bumper was a 'real' one so the
tongue didn't punch through it.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Post by billy ray
Richard,
I also note upon looking at the setup again, that the safety chains would
attach to the same piece of metal that the hitch resides upon. If the weak
link here is the strength of the bumper material, having the chains attached
to the frame will help.
A while back in the thread, Mike painted a scenario where you might be
rear-ended and the trailer tongue shoots through the Jeep's tub. I have
actually had this happen to me. I have a pop-up camper towed by a Sienna.
While waiting to make a left turn, a van hit the back of the trailer hard.
Both the other van and the trailer were totaled. The tongue was indeed
pushed into the back of the Sienna and the force vector was straight in line
with the car's direction and also upward a bit. The upward tilt of the
hitch ball surprised me a bit, but there it was. I had to unbolt the whole
hitch and drop it to disconnect the trailer from the ball, as it was buried
up in the upper bumper. The combination of the Class 2 hitch and then the
frame of the Sienna absorbed it all, about $2500 worth of fixed damage to
the Sienna. I speculate that if I had an equivalent of this hitch design,
it would be likely that the trailer tongue would, in its upward vector,
pierce the rear of the tub and head for people in the seats.
At least safety chains attached to the frame instead of the part that is
(connected to at least) part of the failure might mitigate this. The chains
need to be of plenty of girth as well.
In other words, if the bumper is the weak point, and the chains are attached
to the metal attached to the bumper, the chains provide zero additional
help. They would only help if the trailer jumps off of the ball. I
advocate attaching them to the frame.
Tomes

Post by Richard J Kinch
http://www.truetex.com/jeep_trailer_hitch_bracket.htm

[a***@iinet.net.oz]

Post by Tomes
That is a story of yours there that made me laugh in an 'oh fine' kind of
way. I can just imagine that happening. "Will you stop that already??"
Interesting that your trailer tongue had an upward vector like mine did.
Thinking about it further, I am now betting that just about any trailer
crash will do this as the hitting vehicle will be higher than the trailer
frame, pushing down the trailer rear and thus raising the tongue spear.
Gotta have a system that can control this.

I had a similar thing happen to me. I was stopped at lights
( 4th/5th vehicle in line ) when there was a teriffic thump at my
back. Got out to find trailer drawbar was bent like an inverted V
and jammed on to towball. Tailgate and rear floor all mashed. I
was hit by a brand new Ford Focus, 84km on the clock, which was hit by
a Toyota Tarago which was hit by a Mazda ??? ( all stopped ) which was
hit by a Holden Crapadore which did not stop when he should have done.
Fortunately the only injury was bruising to a passenger in the Focus.
The Focus was probably a write off, mashed bonnet, radiator,doors
jammed etc. Not much damage to other vehicles as they all drove off.
None to my Patrol, as I have a 3500kg rated Reece tow hitch fitted to
it, which is fully used when I have a mini excavator and a small
tractor on the car trailer. Damage repair quote & cheque for my
box trailer was $486. I bought 100 x 50 box tube and a new hitch for
$150 and welded on a new ( much better , stronger ) drawbar, hit the
tailgate & floor with a BFH and, other than time spent on repair, am a
free trailer + $36 ahead as it only cost $300 when I bought it (used).

Moral - good gear saves damage.

Alan
in beautiful Golden Bay, Western Oz, South 32.25.42, East 115.45.44 GMT+8
VK6 YAB ICQ 6581610 to reply, change oz to au in address

[Lon]

Post by Mike Romain
You aren't likely to convince him. He 'thinks' he is edUcated so he
knows better.

Yeah, sometimes one can almost appreciate why there are liability
lawyers that at least sometimes help educate such fools.

[Dave Hinz]

Post by Lon

Post by Mike Romain
You aren't likely to convince him. He 'thinks' he is edUcated so he
knows better.

Yeah, sometimes one can almost appreciate why there are liability
lawyers that at least sometimes help educate such fools.

Sad thing is, if anything ever does happen with his homemade hitch, this
thread will be exhibit A.

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by Dave Hinz
Sad thing is, if anything ever does happen with his homemade hitch, this
thread will be exhibit A.

Sadder to live in fear of liability and lawsuits. The law is on my side.

[Dave Hinz]

Post by Richard J Kinch

Post by Dave Hinz
Sad thing is, if anything ever does happen with his homemade hitch, this
thread will be exhibit A.

Sadder to live in fear of liability and lawsuits. The law is on my side.

OK, well, good luck with that, and I hope that an "I told you so"
situation never comes up. Because seems to me that "I know and I don't
give a shit" is worse, to a jury, than "I didn't know".

Good luck.

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by Dave Hinz
OK, well, good luck with that, and I hope that an "I told you so"
situation never comes up.

Thanks. I don't expect it will. Feel free to gloat if it does. No doubt
you'll be there, subpoenaed as a plaintiff witness.

["Grumman-581" @gmail.com>]

Post by Richard J Kinch
Thanks. I don't expect it will. Feel free to gloat if it does. No doubt
you'll be there, subpoenaed as a plaintiff witness.

Hell, it doesn't seem like that many years ago that you would see trucks
with bumpers made out of railroad rails or 4-6" diameter pipe... Considering
the fact that railroad rails can weigh up to 155 lbs per yd, that made for a
bit heavy bumper....
http://www.allmetalssupply.com/railroad_rail.htm

I even remember seeing one made out of a railroad tie at one time...

You are definitely going the other way in your design... Have you considered
possibly just replacing the stock bumper with something more sturdy? Even
if I wasn't towing anything, I would want to replace the factory bumper...
Bumpers should be able to withstand backing into something at a slow speed
without any damage to them... Perhaps make yourself a bumper out of 4" steel
I-beam? Here's the weights and dimensions for various sizes...
http://www.aceindustries.com/243AmStdShapes.htm

All you would need to do is create a couple of brackets to mate with the
existing factory attachment points... You could either weld a receiver hitch
adapter underneath the I-beam or just drill a few holes and mount a plate
similar to what you current have, but without the bend... I would put the
I-beam in an orientation so that it looked like an 'I' instead of a 'H'...
The mounting brackets would be welded to the inside channel of the I-beam
and as such, supported on 3 sides, making the weld fairly sturdy...

http://www.aceindustries.com/243AmStdShapes.htm

This would still be a fairly cheap solution... Not owning a TJ, I'm not
familiar with the attachment points for its bumper... It is my professional
opinion that one should design for at least as great as the weakest link in
the existing system... Basically, there's no need to put a bank vault door
on a room that has sheetrock walls...

[Richard J Kinch]

Post by "Grumman-581" @gmail.com>
Have you considered
possibly just replacing the stock bumper with something more sturdy?

This is a long thread. Earlier, I explained why that is not a good idea.

I want a sacrificial bumper to spare the frame in a moderate collision.
The stock TJ bumpers are cheap and easily replaced. (Ridiculously easy;
I've done it. Ridiculously cheap because of all the aftermarket adding-on
yielding surplus stock bumpers on eBay.)

A bumper made of, say, 4 x 4 x 1/4 steel box beam would survive a moderate
collision, but leave you with a bent frame.