Reversing in backwards

Post by Harrison Hill
In the "wacky-races" scenario my poor wife experiences
every day - in her "road-rage" car park - are people who
insist on "reversing in backwards".
She has guided one backwards into a wall today, but more
importantly: is her grammar okay?

When was learning to drive, what seems like centuries ago, my driving
instructor would always talk about "reversing backwards". As his
meaning was clear, I didn't correct his grammar,

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Ken Blake

2018-02-07 19:05:37 UTC

When was learning to drive, what seems like centuries ago, my driving
instructor would always talk about "reversing backwards". As his
meaning was clear, I didn't correct his grammar,

The meaning isn't clear to me. "Reversing backwards" sounds like a
double negative. Does that mean "going forward"? I doubt it. Perhaps
the double negative is just meant to reinforce a single negative, and
what he meant was what I would call "backing up." But I'm not sure.

Peter Young

2018-02-07 19:44:34 UTC

When was learning to drive, what seems like centuries ago, my driving
instructor would always talk about "reversing backwards". As his
meaning was clear, I didn't correct his grammar,

I was sure at the time that going backwards was what he meant.
Confusing double negatives isn't uncommon in some registers of spoken
BrE. I imagine that this applies in places Over There too.

"I aint' got no ..."

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Harrison Hill

2018-02-07 19:47:34 UTC

When was learning to drive, what seems like centuries ago, my driving
instructor would always talk about "reversing backwards". As his
meaning was clear, I didn't correct his grammar,

Why do you see it as a "double negative", rather than two
positives reinforcing each other?

Heavily weighted.
The far away distance.
Deep Purple.
A black hole.
Security fencing.

...everyday English?

Harrison Hill

2018-02-07 20:00:21 UTC

Post by Harrison Hill

When was learning to drive, what seems like centuries ago, my driving
instructor would always talk about "reversing backwards". As his
meaning was clear, I didn't correct his grammar,

Why do you see it as a "double negative", rather than two
positives reinforcing each other?
Heavily weighted.
The far away distance.
Deep Purple.
A black hole.
Security fencing.
...everyday English?

Your furthest horizon.
World Champion.
Extreme danger.
Wild adventure.
Green nature.
Calm reflection.

Positives reinforcing positives in the normal way.

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-02-07 20:10:17 UTC

Post by Harrison Hill

When was learning to drive, what seems like centuries ago, my driving
instructor would always talk about "reversing backwards". As his
meaning was clear, I didn't correct his grammar,

Why do you see it as a "double negative", rather than two
positives reinforcing each other?
Heavily weighted.
The far away distance.
Deep Purple.
A black hole.
Security fencing.
...everyday English?

Yes, everyday, but that's because they're not necessarily
tautologous. There are light weighting, near distance,
less deep shades of colours, holes that aren't black (your
windows are covering such holes!) and fencing that is not
a security measure. Reversing backwards is obviously not
a double negative but it is inescapably tautologous.

Ken Blake

2018-02-08 18:42:36 UTC

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 11:47:34 -0800 (PST), Harrison Hill

Post by Harrison Hill

When was learning to drive, what seems like centuries ago, my driving
instructor would always talk about "reversing backwards". As his
meaning was clear, I didn't correct his grammar,

Why do you see it as a "double negative",

Because to me going forward is positive, and "reversing" and
"backwards" are opposites of it.

Post by Harrison Hill
rather than two
positives reinforcing each other?

Well, that could be an interpretation, but it certainly wasn't the one
that first came to my mind.

Default User

2018-02-08 18:19:03 UTC

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

Brian

Harrison Hill

2018-02-08 18:35:45 UTC

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

Double negatives: "I shouldn't wonder if it didn't rain", etc.

RH Draney

2018-02-08 21:11:29 UTC

Post by Harrison Hill
Double negatives: "I shouldn't wonder if it didn't rain", etc.

I often hear "I miss not being able to visit my parents"....

(Double's for beginners...try: "I'd be far from lying if I neglected to
deny that I couldn't help but fail to disagree less")....r

Quinn C

2018-02-08 22:15:54 UTC

Post by RH Draney

Post by Harrison Hill
Double negatives: "I shouldn't wonder if it didn't rain", etc.

I often hear "I miss not being able to visit my parents"....

That's a reasonable point of view. I definitely enjoy being too
far away to visit often.

--
The bee must not pass judgment on the hive. (Voxish proverb)
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.125

RH Draney

2018-02-09 12:29:28 UTC

Post by Quinn C

Post by RH Draney

Post by Harrison Hill
Double negatives: "I shouldn't wonder if it didn't rain", etc.

I often hear "I miss not being able to visit my parents"....

That's a reasonable point of view. I definitely enjoy being too
far away to visit often.

I've got spurs that jingle, jangle, jingle,
As they go ridin' merrily along.
And they sing, "Oh, ain't you glad you're single?"
And that song ain't so very far from wrong.

....r

Ken Blake

2018-02-08 18:47:44 UTC

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:19:03 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

To me, backing up is one of the most dangerous thing you can do
driving. Whenever I can, I park in the second of two contiguous
parking spaces, so I can drive through the first and into the second,
and when I leave, I can leave by going forward.

For the past several weeks, I've had a new car with a backup camera,
so a lot of the backing up risk is gone. But I still look for those
contiguous parking spaces.

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2018-02-08 21:44:56 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:19:03 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

I did that yesterday and today in the same (large) car park. The places
I parked in were within a few seconds walk of one another.

Post by Ken Blake
For the past several weeks, I've had a new car with a backup camera,
so a lot of the backing up risk is gone. But I still look for those
contiguous parking spaces.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Default User

2018-02-09 07:02:52 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:19:03 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

To me, backing up is one of the most dangerous thing you can do
driving. Whenever I can, I park in the second of two contiguous
parking spaces, so I can drive through the first and into the second,
and when I leave, I can leave by going forward.
For the past several weeks, I've had a new car with a backup camera,
so a lot of the backing up risk is gone. But I still look for those
contiguous parking spaces.

I would agree that backing out of a parking space can be pretty
dangerous. Backing into one not nearly so much. You're able to get a
good look at where you're going and what's there before you start. I
back into spots often. Just did that this evening at the parking garage
we use when going to the hockey game (Blues win, yay).

Sure, pulling through is nice, and there are often opportunites for
that, but I don't go out of my way.

Brian

Ken Blake

2018-02-09 15:40:12 UTC

On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 07:02:52 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:19:03 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

To me, backing up is one of the most dangerous thing you can do
driving. Whenever I can, I park in the second of two contiguous
parking spaces, so I can drive through the first and into the second,
and when I leave, I can leave by going forward.
For the past several weeks, I've had a new car with a backup camera,
so a lot of the backing up risk is gone. But I still look for those
contiguous parking spaces.

I would agree that backing out of a parking space can be pretty
dangerous. Backing into one not nearly so much. You're able to get a
good look at where you're going and what's there before you start.

Yes, it's probably not *as* dangerous, but it's still not danger-free.
So I never do it. The one time I always have to backup is when leaving
my garage, but other than that I avoid it whenever I can.

Default User

2018-02-09 17:28:25 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 07:02:52 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"

Post by Default User
I would agree that backing out of a parking space can be pretty
dangerous. Backing into one not nearly so much. You're able to get a
good look at where you're going and what's there before you start.

Yes, it's probably not as dangerous, but it's still not danger-free.
So I never do it. The one time I always have to backup is when leaving
my garage, but other than that I avoid it whenever I can.

I always back into my garage, for the reasons I mentioned before. Any
operation of a vehicle has some level of danger. Backing into parking
spots has a low level, in my opinion.

Brian

Snidely

2018-02-13 08:32:28 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:19:03 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

To me, backing up is one of the most dangerous thing you can do
driving. Whenever I can, I park in the second of two contiguous
parking spaces, so I can drive through the first and into the second,
and when I leave, I can leave by going forward.
For the past several weeks, I've had a new car with a backup camera,
so a lot of the backing up risk is gone. But I still look for those
contiguous parking spaces.

Nice if you can find a pull through spot. That sometimes happens in
SoCal.

But backing into a parking space is safer, in my judgement, than
backing out. Backing in, you start in the aisle, where you can see who
is coming up behind you. Backing out, you start with your vision
blocked by the car next to you.

/dps

--
"I am not given to exaggeration, and when I say a thing I mean it"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

soup

2018-02-08 19:20:47 UTC

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

Not the "backing into a parking space, but the "reversing backwards"
as opposed to 'reversing forwards' or 'driving backwards'

Quinn C

2018-02-08 22:15:54 UTC

Post by soup

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

Not the "backing into a parking space, but the "reversing backwards"
as opposed to 'reversing forwards' or 'driving backwards'

"Reversing forwards" would mean to me that you use the reverse
gear to travel towards your destination, instead of just for small
corrections of the trajectory. That is truly undesirable.

Long ago I heard the story of a family being picked up by police
going in reverse on the highway, because they couldn't get any
other gear in any more. I won't vouch for its veracity.

--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch

Tony Cooper

2018-02-08 20:23:30 UTC

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:19:03 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

There are signs in some parking areas that tell people not to back
into parking spaces. I didn't know if there's any law or ordinance
that says you can't, but I Googled and found that it is illegal in
Orange County, California.

https://www.ocregister.com/2008/04/11/ask-us-why-is-backing-into-parking-spaces-illegal/

Of course, the no backing-in does not pertain to parallel parking
where backing-in is the normal method.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

charles

2018-02-08 20:29:29 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:19:03 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

The only place I've met this is wheer the slots are against a building. The
prohibition is to prevent exhaust fumes going directly into the open
windows.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

Rich Ulrich

2018-02-09 04:18:30 UTC

On Thu, 08 Feb 2018 20:29:29 +0000 (GMT), charles

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:19:03 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

The only place I've met this is wheer the slots are against a building. The
prohibition is to prevent exhaust fumes going directly into the open
windows.

The ad-hoc explanation that I accepted was that cops or
the management wanted the license plates to be visible

Unlike in some other states, tags are only on the rear in
Pennsylvania. I rarely if ever used that sort of lot before
moving to Pa.

--
Rich Ulrich

Mack A. Damia

2018-02-09 10:31:35 UTC

On Thu, 08 Feb 2018 23:18:30 -0500, Rich Ulrich

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 08 Feb 2018 20:29:29 +0000 (GMT), charles

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:19:03 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

The only place I've met this is wheer the slots are against a building. The
prohibition is to prevent exhaust fumes going directly into the open
windows.

The ad-hoc explanation that I accepted was that cops or
the management wanted the license plates to be visible
Unlike in some other states, tags are only on the rear in
Pennsylvania. I rarely if ever used that sort of lot before
moving to Pa.

I had Pennsylvania plates when I moved to the Southwest and Mexico,
but I switched to South Dakota, and they sent me two plates, one for
the front, too.

I don't have the front plate mounted, and I have had SD plates for
nine years now. It is only a violation in South Dakota (I have never
been there) and Mexico or even California don't care as long as I have
a current plate on the back. Cops in Mexico or California have no
knowledge of South Dakota motor vehicle law, and even if they did,
there is no legal authority to charge me with a violation - unless it
is local cops in South Dakota.

Ken Blake

2018-02-09 15:42:56 UTC

On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 02:31:35 -0800, Mack A. Damia

Post by Mack A. Damia
I had Pennsylvania plates when I moved to the Southwest and Mexico,
but I switched to South Dakota, and they sent me two plates, one for
the front, too.
I don't have the front plate mounted, and I have had SD plates for
nine years now. It is only a violation in South Dakota (I have never
been there) and Mexico or even California don't care as long as I have
a current plate on the back. Cops in Mexico or California have no
knowledge of South Dakota motor vehicle law, and even if they did,
there is no legal authority to charge me with a violation - unless it
is local cops in South Dakota.

I don't know what state you live in, but don't they require that you
have plates from that state? I know that some states do, and I thought
they all did.

Mack A. Damia

2018-02-09 16:39:41 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 02:31:35 -0800, Mack A. Damia

I don't know what state you live in, but don't they require that you
have plates from that state? I know that some states do, and I thought
they all did.

I live in Mexico. Lots of ex pats get the South Dakota plates because
in order to get Mexican plates, you have to "import" your car, which
is a messy process.

I have a neighbor who had South Dakota plates but carried a California
driver's license. Both plate registration and driver's license were
in his name, and his license showed a California address. He was
stopped in California recently and got a huge fine. I have a Mexican
driver's license, so there is nothing a California cop could do unless
it was a moving violation. South Dakota plates with a Mexican
driver's license? As far as I know, there is no law against it in
California or any other state except South Dakota, and I have never
been there and don't plan on going. I do yearly plate renewals by
mail. All legal.

Ken Blake

2018-02-09 20:26:08 UTC

On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 08:39:41 -0800, Mack A. Damia

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 02:31:35 -0800, Mack A. Damia

I don't know what state you live in, but don't they require that you
have plates from that state? I know that some states do, and I thought
they all did.

I live in Mexico. Lots of ex pats get the South Dakota plates because
in order to get Mexican plates, you have to "import" your car, which
is a messy process.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I don't know why, but I had thought
you lived in one of the US states.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2018-02-13 15:53:07 UTC

Post by Mack A. Damia

[ ... ]
I don't know what state you live in, but don't they require that you
have plates from that state? I know that some states do, and I thought
they all did.

I live in Mexico. Lots of ex pats get the South Dakota plates because
in order to get Mexican plates, you have to "import" your car, which
is a messy process.
I have a neighbor who had South Dakota plates but carried a California
driver's license. Both plate registration and driver's license were
in his name, and his license showed a California address. He was
stopped in California recently and got a huge fine. I have a Mexican
driver's license, so there is nothing a California cop could do unless
it was a moving violation. South Dakota plates with a Mexican
driver's license? As far as I know, there is no law against it in
California or any other state except South Dakota, and I have never
been there and don't plan on going. I do yearly plate renewals by
mail. All legal.

What's the advantage of getting your plates from South Dakota (rather
than from some other state)? Are they cheaper or less bureaucratic to
get? Or do you want a state you're never likely to visit?

When we were first in France you were required to buy a "vignette" (US
decal, but I don't think that would be understood in the UK or that
there is a UK equivalent term, unless it's "sticker") every year to
display on the front windscreen. You were supposed to buy it in the
département where you lived, but they were much cheaper in some
départements than others, so lots of people in Marseilles used to get
their relatives in Corsica to buy them there, having registered their
car in Corsica first (plate ending 2A or 2B).

I was puzzled that so many cars seemed to be registered in the
Yvelines, which is quite a way from here, so they had plates ending in
78 rather than 13. It was explained to me that they were mostly rental
cars, and that the rental companies usually registered their cars in
the Yvelines because it was much cheaper. All that is history now,
because the licence plates no longer include the number of the
département, and you no longer have to buy a vignette each year.

--
athel

the Omrud

2018-02-13 16:16:01 UTC

Familiar to some Brits of a certain age in the anti-war song:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Your_Flag_Decal_Won%27t_Get_You_Into_Heaven_Anymore

I had no idea at the time what a decal was and had to ask around until I
found somebody who knew.

--
David

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2018-02-13 16:22:35 UTC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Your_Flag_Decal_Won%27t_Get_You_Into_Heaven_Anymore

Post by the Omrud
had no idea at the time what a decal was and had to ask around until I
found somebody who knew.

Close to the Gare du Nord (and doubtless in many other places) there is
an intersection with a sign that says "Feux décalés". I always tend to
read it as "Deux fécales".

--
athel

the Omrud

2018-02-13 16:31:46 UTC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Your_Flag_Decal_Won%27t_Get_You_Into_Heaven_Anymore
I had no idea at the time what a decal was and had to ask around until I
found somebody who knew.

Close to the Gare du Nord (and doubtless in many other places) there is
an intersection with a sign that says "Feux décalés". I always tend to
read it as "Deux fécales".

Yuk.

--
David

Quinn C

2018-02-13 18:06:19 UTC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Your_Flag_Decal_Won%27t_Get_You_Into_Heaven_Anymore
I had no idea at the time what a decal was and had to ask around until I
found somebody who knew.

Close to the Gare du Nord (and doubtless in many other places) there is
an intersection with a sign that says "Feux décalés".

JFTR: that means "staggered" (whatever that means for traffic lights),
and the French word related to "decal" would be décalqué (traced).

--
Some things are taken away from you, some you leave behind-and
some you carry with you, world without end.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.31

J. J. Lodder

2018-02-13 20:17:15 UTC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Your_Flag_Decal_Won%27t_Get_You_Into_Heaven_An

ymore

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I

Post by the Omrud
had no idea at the time what a decal was and had to ask around until I
found somebody who knew.

Close to the Gare du Nord (and doubtless in many other places) there is
an intersection with a sign that says "Feux décalés". I always tend to
read it as "Deux fécales".

I have seen 'vague verte', meme en France,

Jan

Ken Blake

2018-02-13 18:03:31 UTC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Your_Flag_Decal_Won%27t_Get_You_Into_Heaven_Anymore
I had no idea at the time what a decal was and had to ask around until I
found somebody who knew.

"Decal" is short for "decalcomania." I always found it interesting
that it has another shortened form: "cockamamie."

RH Draney

2018-02-13 20:57:14 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
"Decal" is short for "decalcomania." I always found it interesting
that it has another shortened form: "cockamamie."

Magritte used the French form of the longer word as the title of one of
his paintings...it was a rare instance where a Magritte title actually
gave some sort of clue to the subject matter of the work to which it was
applied....r

Mack A. Damia

2018-02-13 16:56:38 UTC

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 16:53:07 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Mack A. Damia

[ ... ]
I don't know what state you live in, but don't they require that you
have plates from that state? I know that some states do, and I thought
they all did.

I live in Mexico. Lots of ex pats get the South Dakota plates because
in order to get Mexican plates, you have to "import" your car, which
is a messy process.
I have a neighbor who had South Dakota plates but carried a California
driver's license. Both plate registration and driver's license were
in his name, and his license showed a California address. He was
stopped in California recently and got a huge fine. I have a Mexican
driver's license, so there is nothing a California cop could do unless
it was a moving violation. South Dakota plates with a Mexican
driver's license? As far as I know, there is no law against it in
California or any other state except South Dakota, and I have never
been there and don't plan on going. I do yearly plate renewals by
mail. All legal.

What's the advantage of getting your plates from South Dakota (rather
than from some other state)? Are they cheaper or less bureaucratic to
get? Or do you want a state you're never likely to visit?

The advantage is that South Dakota lets us do it! And we can take
care of everything through the mail system. I think it is the only
state that allows it, and it has become a huge money maker for them.

"Why are there so many cars in Baja with South Dakota plates? Is
there a large percentage of South Dakotans living here?"

http://www.bajaexplorers.com/index.php/info/129-info/169-south-dakota-plates

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
When we were first in France you were required to buy a "vignette" (US
decal, but I don't think that would be understood in the UK or that
there is a UK equivalent term, unless it's "sticker") every year to
display on the front windscreen. You were supposed to buy it in the
département where you lived, but they were much cheaper in some
départements than others, so lots of people in Marseilles used to get
their relatives in Corsica to buy them there, having registered their
car in Corsica first (plate ending 2A or 2B).
I was puzzled that so many cars seemed to be registered in the
Yvelines, which is quite a way from here, so they had plates ending in
78 rather than 13. It was explained to me that they were mostly rental
cars, and that the rental companies usually registered their cars in
the Yvelines because it was much cheaper. All that is history now,
because the licence plates no longer include the number of the
département, and you no longer have to buy a vignette each year.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-10 05:05:17 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 02:31:35 -0800, Mack A. Damia

I don't know what state you live in, but don't they require that you
have plates from that state? I know that some states do, and I thought
they all did.

In order to get a Resident Parking Permit in Jersey City, I had to change my
registration from NY to NJ, even though there were only about three months
left on my NY registration, meaning that NY had to send me a check for something
like 25% of $40. The Temporary Resident Permit was only good for 1 month IIRC.

($5 to park more than 2 hours anywhere in Zone 2, which is the entire northern
part of the city. A few of the numbered zones cover only a single block --
they're adjacent to commercial areas. A year later, after two increases, it
was $15 a year and has remained at that rate for 13 years -- but from age 65,
the permit is free. And that covers the entire year in which one turns 65, not
pro-rated from the birthday.)

Snidely

2018-02-13 08:39:05 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:19:03 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

There are signs in some parking areas that tell people not to back
into parking spaces. I didn't know if there's any law or ordinance
that says you can't, but I Googled and found that it is illegal in
Orange County, California.
https://www.ocregister.com/2008/04/11/ask-us-why-is-backing-into-parking-spaces-illegal/

At least part of Orange County (the City of Fullerton). The only place
I've seen a "no backing-in" sign was in LA County, in Westwood.

Post by Ken Blake
Of course, the no backing-in does not pertain to parallel parking
where backing-in is the normal method.

"Dive parking" seems to take more room to get close to the curb.

/dps

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013

James Wilkinson Sword

2018-02-08 20:35:52 UTC

I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

Definitely. Consider a supermarket car park. A few cars are following each other looking for a space, the first one spots a space and drives just beyond it, intending on reversing in. He expects the cars following him to notice this and leave a gap, waiting for him to go in. Instead he could have just drove straight in forwards without holding anyone up. When someone in front of me tries to park backwards, I drive in forwards and take their space. If they get angry I say, "You drove past it, I assumed you didn't want this space", which really pisses them off.

--
Carenza Lewis about finding food in the Middle Ages on 'Time Team Live' said: "You'd eat beaver if you could get it."

RH Draney

2018-02-08 21:13:08 UTC

On Thu, 08 Feb 2018 18:19:03 -0000, Default User

Post by Default User
I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

Definitely. Consider a supermarket car park. A few cars are following
each other looking for a space, the first one spots a space and drives
just beyond it, intending on reversing in. He expects the cars
following him to notice this and leave a gap, waiting for him to go in.
Instead he could have just drove straight in forwards without holding
anyone up. When someone in front of me tries to park backwards, I drive
in forwards and take their space. If they get angry I say, "You drove
past it, I assumed you didn't want this space", which really pisses them
off.

I hope someone backs over you coming *out* of a space....r

James Wilkinson Sword

2018-02-08 21:35:46 UTC

Post by RH Draney

On Thu, 08 Feb 2018 18:19:03 -0000, Default User

Post by Default User
I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

Definitely. Consider a supermarket car park. A few cars are following
each other looking for a space, the first one spots a space and drives
just beyond it, intending on reversing in. He expects the cars
following him to notice this and leave a gap, waiting for him to go in.
Instead he could have just drove straight in forwards without holding
anyone up. When someone in front of me tries to park backwards, I drive
in forwards and take their space. If they get angry I say, "You drove
past it, I assumed you didn't want this space", which really pisses them
off.

I hope someone backs over you coming *out* of a space....r

Unlike the arseholes who back in, I back out. So I can wait until nobody's there, and inconvenience noone. When I drive into the space, I go in without stopping. But they expect others to wait for them. I once encountered such an idiot trying to reverse into his own driveway. The road was quite busy, and several cars were stuck behind him refusing to all reverse back out of the way, and couldn't get past him because cars were coming in the opposite direction. Many horns were hooted and the stupid cunt didn't get to reverse into his driveway at all. He had to drive round the block and try again.

--
Judi: "Hon, what is my love worth to you?"
Amanpreet: "Am I buying, or selling?"

Peeler

2018-02-08 22:15:35 UTC

On Thu, 08 Feb 2018 21:35:46 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),

Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Unlike the arseholes who

You are the biggest arsehole on the road ANd on Usenet, Peter Hucker! But
then, you are "proud" of it, right, arsehole?

--
More of gay Peter Hucker's sociopathic "wisdom":
"Scotland isn't a country."
MID: <***@red.lan>

Peeler

2018-02-08 22:10:58 UTC

Post by James Wilkinson Sword

On Thu, 08 Feb 2018 20:35:52 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),

Post by Default User
I gather this means backing into a parking space? Is this considered
undesireable behavior?

Definitely.

You are DEFINITELY a very sick idiot, Birdbrain!

--
Gay Wanker Birdbrain lying about his sky-diving capabilities:
"All you do is turn up at the local airfield and give them £200. Sounded
like a big roller coaster ride to me. And it was, great fun! My instructor
said I was the only person she'd ever seen who didn't look scared when I
jumped out of the plane. FFS they give you TWO parachutes, what could go
wrong?"
MID: <***@red.lan>

the Omrud

2018-02-09 11:04:01 UTC

Nobody's pointed out the main reason for backing into a space, which is
that the turning wheels are at the front of the car. This means that
the car can be turned with only a small part of it "outside" the parking
space. If you drive in forwards, you have to align the car with the
space and drive in parallel to the sides. And on the way out, as soon
as the front wheels are outside the line of cars, you can start to turn.

I am frequently astonished to see people make several forward/backward
manoeuvers to get into a space and then have to make another several
such movements to get out again.

Some of the above may not make any sense to Leftpondians. That's
because many of your parking spaces are HUGE and there's often plenty of
space to drive in forwards without jiggling the car's position. The
only UK car park where I regularly drive in forwards is Costco, which
has created US-sized spaces even in Lancashire.

--
David

charles

2018-02-09 12:20:00 UTC

Nobody's pointed out the main reason for backing into a space, which is
that the turning wheels are at the front of the car. This means that
the car can be turned with only a small part of it "outside" the parking
space. If you drive in forwards, you have to align the car with the
space and drive in parallel to the sides. And on the way out, as soon
as the front wheels are outside the line of cars, you can start to turn.
I am frequently astonished to see people make several forward/backward
manoeuvers to get into a space and then have to make another several
such movements to get out again.
Some of the above may not make any sense to Leftpondians. That's
because many of your parking spaces are HUGE and there's often plenty of
space to drive in forwards without jiggling the car's position. The
only UK car park where I regularly drive in forwards is Costco, which
has created US-sized spaces even in Lancashire.

There's also a safety implication in backing out on to a busy main road.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-09 13:29:16 UTC

Post by the Omrud
Some of the above may not make any sense to Leftpondians. That's
because many of your parking spaces are HUGE and there's often plenty of
space to drive in forwards without jiggling the car's position. The
only UK car park where I regularly drive in forwards is Costco, which
has created US-sized spaces even in Lancashire.

There's also a safety implication in backing out on to a busy main road.

What an odd way to arrange a parking lot.

charles

2018-02-09 13:38:54 UTC

Post by the Omrud
Some of the above may not make any sense to Leftpondians. That's
because many of your parking spaces are HUGE and there's often plenty
of space to drive in forwards without jiggling the car's position.
The only UK car park where I regularly drive in forwards is Costco,
which has created US-sized spaces even in Lancashire.

There's also a safety implication in backing out on to a busy main road.

What an odd way to arrange a parking lot.

I wasn't thinking of a parking lot, but a private parking space, often in
front of a house.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-10 04:56:16 UTC

Post by the Omrud
Some of the above may not make any sense to Leftpondians. That's
because many of your parking spaces are HUGE and there's often plenty
of space to drive in forwards without jiggling the car's position.
The only UK car park where I regularly drive in forwards is Costco,
which has created US-sized spaces even in Lancashire.

There's also a safety implication in backing out on to a busy main road.

What an odd way to arrange a parking lot.

I wasn't thinking of a parking lot, but a private parking space, often in
front of a house.

So your streets actually _are_ wide enough to be streets, but you bung them up
with diagonal parking?

charles

2018-02-10 10:38:57 UTC

Post by the Omrud
Some of the above may not make any sense to Leftpondians. That's
because many of your parking spaces are HUGE and there's often
plenty of space to drive in forwards without jiggling the car's
position. The only UK car park where I regularly drive in
forwards is Costco, which has created US-sized spaces even in
Lancashire.

There's also a safety implication in backing out on to a busy main road.

What an odd way to arrange a parking lot.

I wasn't thinking of a parking lot, but a private parking space, often
in front of a house.

So your streets actually _are_ wide enough to be streets, but you bung
them up with diagonal parking?

Who said it was on the street?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-10 14:38:57 UTC

Post by the Omrud
Some of the above may not make any sense to Leftpondians. That's
because many of your parking spaces are HUGE and there's often
plenty of space to drive in forwards without jiggling the car's
position. The only UK car park where I regularly drive in
forwards is Costco, which has created US-sized spaces even in
Lancashire.

There's also a safety implication in backing out on to a busy main road.

What an odd way to arrange a parking lot.

I wasn't thinking of a parking lot, but a private parking space, often
in front of a house.

So your streets actually _are_ wide enough to be streets, but you bung
them up with diagonal parking?

Who said it was on the street?

"backing out onto a busy main road"

charles

2018-02-10 14:53:59 UTC

Post by the Omrud
Some of the above may not make any sense to Leftpondians.
That's because many of your parking spaces are HUGE and
there's often plenty of space to drive in forwards without
jiggling the car's position. The only UK car park where I
regularly drive in forwards is Costco, which has created
US-sized spaces even in Lancashire.

There's also a safety implication in backing out on to a busy
main road.

What an odd way to arrange a parking lot.

I wasn't thinking of a parking lot, but a private parking space,
often in front of a house.

So your streets actually _are_ wide enough to be streets, but you
bung them up with diagonal parking?

Who said it was on the street?

"backing out onto a busy main road"

out of the parking space - onto the road. Nothing in that says the parking
space is on the road. You obviously can't envisage houses with driveway
where there is no room to turn - you have to back in or back out - on to
the road.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-11 04:04:51 UTC

Post by the Omrud
Some of the above may not make any sense to Leftpondians.
That's because many of your parking spaces are HUGE and
there's often plenty of space to drive in forwards without
jiggling the car's position. The only UK car park where I
regularly drive in forwards is Costco, which has created
US-sized spaces even in Lancashire.

There's also a safety implication in backing out on to a busy
main road.

What an odd way to arrange a parking lot.

I wasn't thinking of a parking lot, but a private parking space,
often in front of a house.

So your streets actually _are_ wide enough to be streets, but you
bung them up with diagonal parking?

Who said it was on the street?

"backing out onto a busy main road"

We don't call a driveway a "parking space." "Parking space" is either along the
curb or in the parking lot.

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2018-02-09 12:35:51 UTC

There are some places where there is a good reason for doing that. In
the car park of a supermarket or suchlike it is pretty much essential to
have the boot (trunk) facing out so that the contents of your shopping
trolley can be easily put into it.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

the Omrud

2018-02-09 15:36:07 UTC

Post by the Omrud
I am frequently astonished to see people make several forward/backward
manoeuvers to get into a space and then have to make another several
such movements to get out again.

True, but if I found that my boot would be right up against a wall or
another car, I'd try to find a different space.

--
David

Quinn C

2018-02-09 18:44:08 UTC

Post by the Omrud
I am frequently astonished to see people make several forward/backward
manoeuvers to get into a space and then have to make another several
such movements to get out again.

True, but if I found that my boot would be right up against a wall or
another car, I'd try to find a different space.

On the parking lots of smaller supermarkets here, often every space is
up against either a wall or a strip of grass.

--
Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his ease.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-09 13:27:44 UTC

Post by the Omrud
Nobody's pointed out the main reason for backing into a space, which is
that the turning wheels are at the front of the car. This means that
the car can be turned with only a small part of it "outside" the parking
space. If you drive in forwards, you have to align the car with the
space and drive in parallel to the sides. And on the way out, as soon
as the front wheels are outside the line of cars, you can start to turn.
I am frequently astonished to see people make several forward/backward
manoeuvers to get into a space and then have to make another several
such movements to get out again.
Some of the above may not make any sense to Leftpondians. That's
because many of your parking spaces are HUGE and there's often plenty of
space to drive in forwards without jiggling the car's position. The
only UK car park where I regularly drive in forwards is Costco, which
has created US-sized spaces even in Lancashire.

You make it sound like there isn't enough room to open the doors after you've parked
in the narrow space?

Once in a while, the painted lines between spaces are not single but double, adding
about a foot between parked cars, the exception rather than the rule. Maybe that's
what you've seen.

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-02-09 13:45:38 UTC

You make it sound like there isn't enough room to open the doors after you've parked
in the narrow space?

Well yeah, sometimes! Drivers are often forced to dump any passengers
before entering the space and crawl up the inside line to ensure that
they can themselves leave the car.

the Omrud

2018-02-09 15:39:27 UTC

You make it sound like there isn't enough room to open the doors after you've parked
in the narrow space?

In the UK, that's right. Car park spaces seem to be designed for 1960s
cars (that means they were small).

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Once in a while, the painted lines between spaces are not single but double, adding
about a foot between parked cars, the exception rather than the rule. Maybe that's
what you've seen.

That's what UK Costco car parks are like. Oh, and parking spaces
reserved for Disabled people. It's so much easier to park when I have
Mum in the car.

--
David

b***@shaw.ca

2018-02-09 19:26:25 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
You make it sound like there isn't enough room to open the doors after you've parked
in the narrow space?

In the UK, that's right. Car park spaces seem to be designed for 1960s
cars (that means they were small).

That points to a remarkably strong pondian difference. In North America,
1960s cars were huge, bigger than they were before and since. I recall a friend
who owned an early 1960s Chrysler. We called it "the houseboat". It had
shock absorbers that made it feel the car was floating, and power
steering that let you steer with one finger. Driving it, you had no
sense at all that there was a road beneath the wheels.

By then, North American families had owned cars for a number of decades
and automobiles had evolved into luxurious status symbols:
the bigger, the better.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that in western Europe,
most families did not own cars until the 1960s. That's how I remember
it in the Netherlands, at least.

That's what UK Costco car parks are like. Oh, and parking spaces
reserved for Disabled people. It's so much easier to park when I have
Mum in the car.

Yes. My wife is disabled and we have a disabled-parking placard.
The extra space is essential when she's travelling with me. It lets
me unload and assemble her wheelchair at the back of the car,
and then push it to the front passenger door where she can transfer into it.

Similarly with Costco. Its shopping carts are huge and many shoppers
fill them right up. Extra space is needed to unload purchases
from the cart into the car.

bill

Bart Dinnissen

2018-02-09 22:43:15 UTC

Post by b***@shaw.ca
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that in western Europe,
most families did not own cars until the 1960s. That's how I remember
it in the Netherlands, at least.

My father bought his first (but second-hand) car in 1967, I think. The vendor was named Snel, which
means fast in English. It was a Citroen 2CV. On the roof-rack we tied down the tent and the
inflatable beds for the two-week holiday in France. Dad, mom and 4 children.

I also remember my mother quoting from a book : " He' s rich, he has a car."

In later years my father owned cars like the Fiat 28, Ford Consul, Volkswagen Passat. Now he drives
a Mazda automatic.

--
Bart Dinnissen

This quote was taken out of context.
-Randall Munroe

Mark Brader

2018-02-10 08:35:00 UTC

Post by b***@shaw.ca

In the UK... Car park spaces seem to be designed for 1960s
cars (that means they were small).

That points to a remarkably strong pondian difference. In North America,
1960s cars were huge, bigger than they were before and since.

For example, I came across an article the other day in a newspaper
from 1959, to the effect that some of the new 1960 models from
*all three* of the major car-makers had been found to be illegal
in Ontario due to exceeding the maximum width allowed for motor
vehicles not having extra lights like you see on the back corners
of big trucks.

(The maximum, by the way, was 8 feet, which is 2.4384 m.)

--
Mark Brader | "Mine are the correct [theories], but other observers...
Toronto | offer differing hypotheses which they stubbornly
***@vex.net | refuse to abandon." --Algis Budrys

My text in this article is in the public domain.

J. J. Lodder

2018-02-10 10:58:46 UTC

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by Peter T. Daniels
You make it sound like there isn't enough room to open the doors after
you've parked in the narrow space?

In the UK, that's right. Car park spaces seem to be designed for 1960s
cars (that means they were small).

So they were known for their incredibly poor road holding.
Anything European was much better at it.
They could be driven at speed only on wide highways.
(and that is what passes for speed among Americans)

Post by b***@shaw.ca
By then, North American families had owned cars for a number of decades
the bigger, the better.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that in western Europe,
most families did not own cars until the 1960s. That's how I remember
it in the Netherlands, at least.

Americans generally have no idea
of just how impoverished Europe was after WW II.
Some modest affluence returned only in the sixties.
Even then, almost all cars were typical 'poverty cars',
like the 2CV, Volkswagen Beetle, Fiat 500, etc.

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Once in a while, the painted lines between spaces are not single but
double, adding about a foot between parked cars, the exception rather
than the rule. Maybe that's what you've seen.

That's what UK Costco car parks are like. Oh, and parking spaces
reserved for Disabled people. It's so much easier to park when I have
Mum in the car.

Yes. My wife is disabled and we have a disabled-parking placard.
The extra space is essential when she's travelling with me. It lets
me unload and assemble her wheelchair at the back of the car,
and then push it to the front passenger door where she can transfer into it.
Similarly with Costco. Its shopping carts are huge and many shoppers
fill them right up. Extra space is needed to unload purchases
from the cart into the car.

That's where the Netherlands are different.
There simply are no shopping malls with huge parking areas,
for the simple reason that they never got a builing permit.
It's called 'ruimtelijke ordening', (lit. spatial ordening)
Most shopping is done in city centres,
and the core region of Holland is green,
rather than an asphalt and concrete jungle.
The 'Randstad' is a circle around 'Het groene hart',

Jan

Richard Tobin

2018-02-09 21:26:06 UTC

Post by the Omrud
That's what UK Costco car parks are like. Oh, and parking spaces
reserved for Disabled people. It's so much easier to park when I have
Mum in the car.

You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

-- Richard

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-10 05:07:30 UTC

Post by the Omrud
That's what UK Costco car parks are like. Oh, and parking spaces
reserved for Disabled people. It's so much easier to park when I have
Mum in the car.

You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

The whats?

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2018-02-10 17:04:58 UTC

On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:07:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by the Omrud
That's what UK Costco car parks are like. Oh, and parking spaces
reserved for Disabled people. It's so much easier to park when I have
Mum in the car.

You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

The whats?

A parent-and-child space is the same as a "disabled parking space" but
is marked for use by a "parent and child" rather than for a disabled
person.
A newspaper asked various supermarkets what their rules were.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/who-can-park-parent-child-8043907

After speaking to a number of the major supermarkets, WalesOnline
found the consensus seems to be that children should be under the
age of 12, but not all stores will fine people misusing the space.

Both types of space are the normal width with an area alongside that is
marked with diagonal lines indicating "no parking on this space". The
effect is to keep a space between the sides of cars so that there is
room for a wheelchair or baby-buggy, or indeed a shopping trolley. Some
shopping trolleys have a baby seat.

Both types of restricted parking space are near the store so that the
disabled person or brat-wrangling parent doesn't have far to go.

I am mainly familiar with these at my usual supermarket. The car park is
on private land and is administered by a commercial company: UKPC (UK
Parking Control Ltd).
This shows part of the car park with parking spaces marked for a
disabled person (yellow symbol representing a person in a wheelchair)
and parent with child (white symbols of mother and child).
https://goo.gl/maps/ozgRz9GLBXK2

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-11 04:07:52 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:07:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by the Omrud
That's what UK Costco car parks are like. Oh, and parking spaces
reserved for Disabled people. It's so much easier to park when I have
Mum in the car.

You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

The whats?

A parent-and-child space is the same as a "disabled parking space" but
is marked for use by a "parent and child" rather than for a disabled
person.
A newspaper asked various supermarkets what their rules were.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/who-can-park-parent-child-8043907
After speaking to a number of the major supermarkets, WalesOnline
found the consensus seems to be that children should be under the
age of 12, but not all stores will fine people misusing the space.
Both types of space are the normal width with an area alongside that is
marked with diagonal lines indicating "no parking on this space". The
effect is to keep a space between the sides of cars so that there is
room for a wheelchair or baby-buggy, or indeed a shopping trolley. Some
shopping trolleys have a baby seat.
Both types of restricted parking space are near the store so that the
disabled person or brat-wrangling parent doesn't have far to go.

The IKEA in Elizabeth, NJ, has some spaces marked for parents with small
children, just beyond the large area of handicapped parking, but I haven't
seen that elsewhere. It isn't a legally enforced category, and there's no
special marking on a car indicating it's eligible to use such spaces.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I am mainly familiar with these at my usual supermarket. The car park is
on private land and is administered by a commercial company: UKPC (UK
Parking Control Ltd).
This shows part of the car park with parking spaces marked for a
disabled person (yellow symbol representing a person in a wheelchair)
and parent with child (white symbols of mother and child).
https://goo.gl/maps/ozgRz9GLBXK2

Jerry Friedman

2018-02-11 04:57:12 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:07:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

...

Post by Richard Tobin
You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

The whats?

...
How do they manage to fine people?

--
Jerry Friedman

Tony Cooper

2018-02-11 06:03:15 UTC

On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 21:57:12 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:07:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

...

Post by Richard Tobin
You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

The whats?

...
How do they manage to fine people?

It is evidently managed by a firm that specializes in this. Asda uses
Town & Country Parking and ParkingEye to issue the tickets and collect
the fines. I can't find anything that says if any of the proceeds go
to Asda. Asda's interest may be in just keeping the spaces turning
over for their customers. A customer parking for over two hours can
be fined.

I do wonder if a private firm has any legal ability to do anything to
a person who does not pay the ticket. I wouldn't think they can boot
the car, tow it, or enforce payment the way a police-issued ticket can
be enforced.

In the US, a store can engage a tow company to remove any cars when
the driver parks in the store's lot and goes elsewhere. No ticket is
issued, but the car can be towed away and the owner forced to pay to
retrieve the car.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2018-02-11 14:43:40 UTC

On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 21:57:12 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:07:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

...

Post by Richard Tobin
You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

The whats?

...
How do they manage to fine people?

The car park is on private ground. The company operating such a car park
is perfectly entitled to charge for parking, or as in these cases, to
permit free parking for a stated period and to charge for overstaying.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Tony Cooper

2018-02-11 15:08:53 UTC

On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 14:43:40 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 21:57:12 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:07:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

...

Post by Richard Tobin
You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

The whats?

...
How do they manage to fine people?

That's understood, but the question is about how the system works. In
a private car park, the user pays some attendant (which could be a
machine) but there are no fines imposed for violations.

In the supermarket instance, no fees are paid for parking but there
are fees for violations and the question is how is this managed.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

charles

2018-02-11 15:20:12 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 14:43:40 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 21:57:12 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:07:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

...

Post by Richard Tobin
You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

The whats?

... How do they manage to fine people?

That's understood, but the question is about how the system works. In a
private car park, the user pays some attendant (which could be a machine)
but there are no fines imposed for violations.
In the supermarket instance, no fees are paid for parking but there are
fees for violations and the question is how is this managed.

at our local Lidl supermarket, there are cameras at the entrance recording
numberplates. You are required to scan your till receipt and enter your car
registration number at a special machine. The company can then find the cars
that don't belong to customers or those that have overstayed the allowed 90
minutes.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

Tony Cooper

2018-02-11 17:04:12 UTC

On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 15:20:12 +0000 (GMT), charles

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 14:43:40 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 21:57:12 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:07:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

...

Post by Richard Tobin
You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

The whats?

... How do they manage to fine people?

That's understood, but the question is about how the system works. In a
private car park, the user pays some attendant (which could be a machine)
but there are no fines imposed for violations.
In the supermarket instance, no fees are paid for parking but there are
fees for violations and the question is how is this managed.

Yes, but the question remains in my mind is the last part of the
managing: How is the collection of fine enforced?

If you are fined, but don't pay the fine, what happens?

In the US, an unpaid parking fine can result in the car being towed or
the car's owner's license being suspended. Not a single fine,
perhaps, but accumulate enough of them and the hook will come. That
is because the fine is imposed by the municipality, not a private
company.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

charles

2018-02-11 17:05:34 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 15:20:12 +0000 (GMT), charles

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 14:43:40 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 21:57:12 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:07:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

...

Post by Richard Tobin
You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

The whats?

... How do they manage to fine people?

The car park is on private ground. The company operating such a car
park is perfectly entitled to charge for parking, or as in these
cases, to permit free parking for a stated period and to charge for
overstaying.

That's understood, but the question is about how the system works. In
a private car park, the user pays some attendant (which could be a
machine) but there are no fines imposed for violations.
In the supermarket instance, no fees are paid for parking but there
are fees for violations and the question is how is this managed.

at our local Lidl supermarket, there are cameras at the entrance
recording numberplates. You are required to scan your till receipt and
enter your car registration number at a special machine. The company can
then find the cars that don't belong to customers or those that have
overstayed the allowed 90 minutes.

Yes, but the question remains in my mind is the last part of the
managing: How is the collection of fine enforced?
If you are fined, but don't pay the fine, what happens?

You could be taken to court.

Post by Tony Cooper
In the US, an unpaid parking fine can result in the car being towed or
the car's owner's license being suspended. Not a single fine, perhaps,
but accumulate enough of them and the hook will come. That is because
the fine is imposed by the municipality, not a private company.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

Richard Tobin

2018-02-11 17:58:01 UTC

Post by charles
at our local Lidl supermarket, there are cameras at the entrance recording
numberplates. You are required to scan your till receipt and enter your car
registration number at a special machine. The company can then find the cars
that don't belong to customers or those that have overstayed the allowed 90
minutes.

Yes, but the question remains in my mind is the last part of the
managing: How is the collection of fine enforced?

Parking in a car park that has suitably placed signs is deemed to
constitute entering into a contract. The contract can be enforced in
the usual ways.

-- Richard

J. J. Lodder

2018-02-11 22:12:10 UTC

Yes, but the question remains in my mind is the last part of the
managing: How is the collection of fine enforced?

Parking in a car park that has suitably placed signs is deemed to
constitute entering into a contract. The contract can be enforced in
the usual ways.

In many places a cantract can have legal force
only if two parties have agreed upon it
knowing all the terms.
Implicit contracts are by definition invalid.

Another typical example is shrimpwrap-ware,
where the seller pretends that you have entered into a contract
merely by breaking a seal,

Jan

Tony Cooper

2018-02-12 00:17:32 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder
In many places a cantract can have legal force
only if two parties have agreed upon it
knowing all the terms.
Implicit contracts are by definition invalid.
Another typical example is shrimpwrap-ware,
where the seller pretends that you have entered into a contract
merely by breaking a seal,

I take it that "shrimpwrap-ware" is/are? small offerings that go bad
if left unwrapped for long.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

J. J. Lodder

2018-02-12 10:24:42 UTC

I take it that "shrimpwrap-ware" is/are? small offerings that go bad
if left unwrapped for long.

Wow, a stronker of a typo,

Jan

Quinn C

2018-02-12 17:27:16 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder

I take it that "shrimpwrap-ware" is/are? small offerings that go bad
if left unwrapped for long.

Wow, a stronker of a typo,

<https://www.researchitaly.it/en/news/making-biodegradable-food-packaging-from-seafood-waste/>

--
Some things are taken away from you, some you leave behind-and
some you carry with you, world without end.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.31

Richard Tobin

2018-02-12 09:37:12 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Richard Tobin
Parking in a car park that has suitably placed signs is deemed to
constitute entering into a contract. The contract can be enforced in
the usual ways.

In many places a cantract can have legal force
only if two parties have agreed upon it
knowing all the terms.

The signs are required to state the terms. You're supposed to read
them before parking (probably imparactical).

-- Richard

J. J. Lodder

2018-02-12 16:10:30 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Richard Tobin
Parking in a car park that has suitably placed signs is deemed to
constitute entering into a contract. The contract can be enforced in
the usual ways.

In many places a cantract can have legal force
only if two parties have agreed upon it
knowing all the terms.

The signs are required to state the terms. You're supposed to read them
before parking (probably imparactical).

Well, you can look up the terms for shrinkwrap-ware too,
but that doesn't make them binding,

Jan

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2018-02-11 21:48:40 UTC

On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 12:04:12 -0500, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 15:20:12 +0000 (GMT), charles

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 14:43:40 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 21:57:12 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:07:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

...

Post by Richard Tobin
You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

The whats?

... How do they manage to fine people?

That's understood, but the question is about how the system works. In a
private car park, the user pays some attendant (which could be a machine)
but there are no fines imposed for violations.
In the supermarket instance, no fees are paid for parking but there are
fees for violations and the question is how is this managed.

Yes, but the question remains in my mind is the last part of the
managing: How is the collection of fine enforced?

I don't know. I've never seen it done.

One method used in some privately-run car parks is wheel-clamping.
The driver will make him/herself known to someone in authority to
arrange to have the vehicle released in exchange for a standard
payment/fine.

Post by Tony Cooper
If you are fined, but don't pay the fine, what happens?
In the US, an unpaid parking fine can result in the car being towed or
the car's owner's license being suspended. Not a single fine,
perhaps, but accumulate enough of them and the hook will come. That
is because the fine is imposed by the municipality, not a private
company.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

JNugent

2018-02-12 13:18:18 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:07:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

...

Post by Richard Tobin
You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

The whats?

...
How do they manage to fine people?

When my son was about 18, I often used to use "parent and child" spaces.

Tony Cooper

2018-02-10 06:33:04 UTC

Post by the Omrud
That's what UK Costco car parks are like. Oh, and parking spaces
reserved for Disabled people. It's so much easier to park when I have
Mum in the car.

You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

New to me, but it led me to look them up. What surprised me more than
the fact that such things exist is that the owner of the lot imposes
the fine on anyone who violates the rule. A webhit says Asda fined a
violator £70 but another webhit says Tesco charges only £25.

I wonder what Fortnum & Mason charges and if they require the child to
be in a wicker car seat.

In the US, anyone not displaying a handicapped parking authorization
indication (placard, sticker, or license plate) is fined by the city
or county. We have both regular parking spaces assigned to
handicapped parking and wide handicapped parking spaces that
accommodate a van where the wheel chair exits from the side.

Some stores, primarily supermarkets, in the US have designated parking
spaces for expectant mothers. It's a courtesy accommodation, though,
and no fine is imposed on violators. I wouldn't take a chance on
stealing one from an pregnant woman, though. They can be mean and
hormonal.

The UK parent-and-child rule does not permit pregnant women to use the
space (unless a child is with them). The "and-child" means a child
that is carried outside of the womb.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

charles

2018-02-10 10:43:11 UTC

Post by the Omrud
That's what UK Costco car parks are like. Oh, and parking spaces
reserved for Disabled people. It's so much easier to park when I have
Mum in the car.

You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

strangely enough, Fortnums does have any parking spaces - it's in central
london on a very busy throughfare. If you don't go on foot, you could use a
taxi. The very rich could, prsumably have their chauffeur deliver them, but
there a bus lane at the front of the shop.

Post by Tony Cooper
In the US, anyone not displaying a handicapped parking authorization
indication (placard, sticker, or license plate) is fined by the city
or county. We have both regular parking spaces assigned to
handicapped parking and wide handicapped parking spaces that
accommodate a van where the wheel chair exits from the side.
Some stores, primarily supermarkets, in the US have designated parking
spaces for expectant mothers. It's a courtesy accommodation, though,
and no fine is imposed on violators. I wouldn't take a chance on
stealing one from an pregnant woman, though. They can be mean and
hormonal.
The UK parent-and-child rule does not permit pregnant women to use the
space (unless a child is with them). The "and-child" means a child
that is carried outside of the womb.

could I take my 49 year old daughter with me and us such a space?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-02-10 12:42:53 UTC

Post by the Omrud
That's what UK Costco car parks are like. Oh, and parking spaces
reserved for Disabled people. It's so much easier to park when I have
Mum in the car.

You can use the parent-and-child spaces too.

One does not drive to Fortnum & Mason and certainly does not park.
One's chauffeur drops one at the door and returns later to take one
home.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-10 14:40:02 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder what Fortnum & Mason charges and if they require the child to
be in a wicker car seat.

One does not drive to Fortnum & Mason and certainly does not park.
One's chauffeur drops one at the door and returns later to take one
home.

How does one's chauffeur know when to return?

charles

2018-02-10 14:54:52 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder what Fortnum & Mason charges and if they require the child
to be in a wicker car seat.

One does not drive to Fortnum & Mason and certainly does not park.
One's chauffeur drops one at the door and returns later to take one
home.

How does one's chauffeur know when to return?

you send a telegram - or even use Mr Graham Bell's device

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

Tony Cooper

2018-02-10 16:51:53 UTC

On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 14:54:52 +0000 (GMT), charles

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder what Fortnum & Mason charges and if they require the child
to be in a wicker car seat.

One does not drive to Fortnum & Mason and certainly does not park.
One's chauffeur drops one at the door and returns later to take one
home.

How does one's chauffeur know when to return?

you send a telegram - or even use Mr Graham Bell's device

Do that themselves? Surely they have a faithful retainer with them to
carry their purchases and summon the chauffeur. There are standards,
you know.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

charles

2018-02-10 16:55:46 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 14:54:52 +0000 (GMT), charles

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder what Fortnum & Mason charges and if they require the child
to be in a wicker car seat.

One does not drive to Fortnum & Mason and certainly does not park.
One's chauffeur drops one at the door and returns later to take one
home.

How does one's chauffeur know when to return?

you send a telegram - or even use Mr Graham Bell's device

Do that themselves? Surely they have a faithful retainer with them to
carry their purchases and summon the chauffeur. There are standards,
you know.

I imagine that the staff at Fortnum's are well trained in this operation.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

CDB

2018-02-11 18:18:21 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder what Fortnum & Mason charges and if they require the child
to be in a wicker car seat.

One does not drive to Fortnum & Mason and certainly does not park.
One's chauffeur drops one at the door and returns later to take one
home.

How does one's chauffeur know when to return?

you send a telegram - or even use Mr Graham Bell's device

Do that themselves? Surely they have a faithful retainer with them to
carry their purchases and summon the chauffeur. There are standards,
you know.

Grandmama would always send a runner.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-11 18:47:04 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder what Fortnum & Mason charges and if they require the child
to be in a wicker car seat.

One does not drive to Fortnum & Mason and certainly does not park.
One's chauffeur drops one at the door and returns later to take one
home.

How does one's chauffeur know when to return?

you send a telegram - or even use Mr Graham Bell's device

Do that themselves? Surely they have a faithful retainer with them to
carry their purchases and summon the chauffeur. There are standards,
you know.

Grandmama would always send a runner.

Four runners and you've got a sedan chair. Or a dogsled.

CDB

2018-02-12 15:32:15 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder what Fortnum & Mason charges and if they require
the child to be in a wicker car seat.

One does not drive to Fortnum & Mason and certainly does
not park. One's chauffeur drops one at the door and returns
later to take one home.

How does one's chauffeur know when to return?

you send a telegram - or even use Mr Graham Bell's device

Do that themselves? Surely they have a faithful retainer with
them to carry their purchases and summon the chauffeur. There
are standards, you know.

Grandmama would always send a runner.

Four runners and you've got a sedan chair. Or a dogsled.

He would carry a stick with the message held in a cleft at the end.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-12 18:26:01 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder what Fortnum & Mason charges and if they require
the child to be in a wicker car seat.

One does not drive to Fortnum & Mason and certainly does
not park. One's chauffeur drops one at the door and returns
later to take one home.

How does one's chauffeur know when to return?

you send a telegram - or even use Mr Graham Bell's device

Do that themselves? Surely they have a faithful retainer with
them to carry their purchases and summon the chauffeur. There
are standards, you know.

Grandmama would always send a runner.

Four runners and you've got a sedan chair. Or a dogsled.

He would carry a stick with the message held in a cleft at the end.

That's in llama country!

We're only just beginning to get a hint of how to interpret the non-arithmetic semantic
content of quipus.

Paul Wolff

2018-02-12 00:07:27 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder what Fortnum & Mason charges and if they require the child
to be in a wicker car seat.

One does not drive to Fortnum & Mason and certainly does not park.
One's chauffeur drops one at the door and returns later to take one
home.

How does one's chauffeur know when to return?

you send a telegram - or even use Mr Graham Bell's device

Do that themselves? Surely they have a faithful retainer with them to
carry their purchases and summon the chauffeur. There are standards,
you know.

Grandmama would always send a runner.

Harrods had their own customer car park - and may still do, for all I
know. Looking at today's map, Brompton Place seems the likely road to
it. I seem to remember driving into the approach road (turn right,
having approached from the museums in Cromwell Road, passing the
Brompton Oratory on your left) and finding the car park at the end.

One's chauffeur sits in the car and waits. That's what he's paid to do.

--
Paul

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-02-10 16:44:48 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder what Fortnum & Mason charges and if they require the child to
be in a wicker car seat.

One does not drive to Fortnum & Mason and certainly does not park.
One's chauffeur drops one at the door and returns later to take one
home.

How does one's chauffeur know when to return?

Chauffeurs who do not are not chauffeurs for very long!

J. J. Lodder

2018-02-11 22:12:09 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder what Fortnum & Mason charges and if they require the child to
be in a wicker car seat.

One does not drive to Fortnum & Mason and certainly does not park.
One's chauffeur drops one at the door and returns later to take one
home.

How does one's chauffeur know when to return?

He asks Jeeves, who knows these kind of things perfectly,

Jan

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-10 05:00:09 UTC

You make it sound like there isn't enough room to open the doors after you've parked
in the narrow space?

In the UK, that's right. Car park spaces seem to be designed for 1960s
cars (that means they were small).

Over Here that would mean they were big ...

We only get significant sales of "economy cars" when gas prices soar.

That's what UK Costco car parks are like. Oh, and parking spaces
reserved for Disabled people. It's so much easier to park when I have
Mum in the car.

Every parking area in ???* has at least one Handicapped space -- the legally
required number presumably depends on the total number of spaces -- and the
fines for parking in one without a Handicapped plate or official permit is
hugely greater than an ordinary parking fine.

*Maybe there are states that don't have such a requirement. Seems unlikely.

Sam Plusnet

2018-02-11 23:08:35 UTC

You make it sound like there isn't enough room to open the doors after you've parked
in the narrow space?

In the UK, that's right. Car park spaces seem to be designed for 1960s
cars (that means they were small).

That's what UK Costco car parks are like. Oh, and parking spaces
reserved for Disabled people. It's so much easier to park when I have
Mum in the car.

Apparently the recommended minimum dimensions for a car space, here in
the UK, are 4.8 metres by 2.4 metres.
This is only a recommendation, so I expect that many car parks see it as
an aspiration rather than a rule.

My car is roughly 2.1 metres wide, if you include the door mirrors.

--
Sam Plusnet

Tony Cooper

2018-02-09 16:15:09 UTC