[FairfieldLife] The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Christians like to tell the rest of us that their religion teaches peace, love and understanding. They also are fond of saying that the Bible is the greatest book ever written. Well, folks, they can't have it both ways. The fact is that the Bible promotes genocide, the systematic destruction of entire populations of human beings. If that's Christian compassion, then I'm the Pope.


Don't believe that the Bible teaches genocide? Check out the following verses, just two of the many from the Bible that suggest that God himself thinks that genocide is a wonderful idea:


Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)
Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14



You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.
Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9


So this is God's love: if he looks favorably upon you, he'll help you go out and slaughter ten thousand people just because they belong to another ethic group and are already living on the land you want for yourself. Furthermore, the Bible says that he wants you to go out and commit cultural genocide, destroying the religious buildings and holy objects of rival religions. So come on, Christians! Hop to it! Surely you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, don't you? I'll bet you can find some non-Christian temple and start your pillage today!


If you think I'm being sarcastic, or am just making an academic point about a couple of long-forgotten verses that have no connection to the way that Christianity is practiced today, you're wrong. These biblical verses, and others like them, have been used by Christians for thousands of years to justify hundreds, if not thousands, of horrific acts of genocide. Just in the last couple of years, the Christian Yugoslav government led by the popular leader Slobodan Milosevic slaughtered huge numbers of ethnic Albanian Muslims, citing the Bible's genocidal language as justification.


Now, some peaceable apologetic Christians will argue that Christians like Milosevic have merely misunderstood the teachings of the Bible. They'll claim that God required his followers to commit genocidal atrocities during the time of the Old Testament but that Jesus brought a New Testament which instead instructs people to turn the other cheek.


First of all, Christian history does not bear this New Testament idea out. Christian armies never turned the other cheek when they slaughtered their enemies in the name of God. Church leaders supported these acts and often led the clamor for holy wars.


Secondly, the New Testament argument destroys the very foundation that Christianity is built upon. If God is really all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, then he can't possibly have meant to tell his followers to go out and engage in acts of ethnic cleansing and then have changed his mind a thousand years or so later. If God really knows all and can do whatever he wants, why couldn't he have brought Jesus and the New Testament down earlier and saved the Earth a whole lot of bloodshed? Waiting around to teach forgiveness after you've been teaching human slaughter doesn't sound very all-loving to me. Whichever tack you take, the argument that a New Testament separates modern Christianity from the atrocities of the Old Testament is a theologically unsound excuse.


That also goes for the whole rigamarole that Christians go through to give themselves the title of God's new Chosen People. This old Christian canard argues that God used to call the Jews his Chosen People, but the Jews weren't worthy, so since the arrival of Jesus, the Chosen People are the Christians. Honestly, I don't see what difference it makes who the Chosen People are -- I don't think that they ought to have the right to go around and kill people just because they aren't Chosen. It doesn't matter whether genocide takes place on the basis of ethnicity or religion. It's still genocide.
Besides, all the Christian protestations about being followers of the New Testaments and not the Old Testament are shown to be the hollow excuses they are by the continued use of the Old Testament by practically every Christian church on the face of the Earth. If Christianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the Old Testament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christian priests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old Testament Verses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandments posted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize their little boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?


http://irregulartimes.com/index.htmlChristians accuse New Age practitioners of taking a buffet approach to religion: just taking whatever teachings from whatever traditions they like and then ignoring the ones they don't like. Pardon me, but I don't see how the Christians are any different. If you're a real, consistent Christian, you ought to join with other Christians to form a holy army to massacre as many non-Christians as you can, starting today.

[TurquoiseBee [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

I will allow emptybill to fight this intellectual battle, only tossing into the ring, "Anyone who could have been impressed by the notion of a 'jealous God' when growing up was probably already halfway on the way to becoming a victim of abuse, having been programmed to follow that path by their abusers."

From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 6:05 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

 
Christians like to tell the rest of us that their religion teaches peace, love and understanding. They also are fond of saying that the Bible is the greatest book ever written. Well, folks, they can't have it both ways. The fact is that the Bible promotes genocide, the systematic destruction of entire populations of human beings. If that's Christian compassion, then I'm the Pope.
Don't believe that the Bible teaches genocide? Check out the following verses, just two of the many from the Bible that suggest that God himself thinks that genocide is a wonderful idea:
Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9
So this is God's love: if he looks favorably upon you, he'll help you go out and slaughter ten thousand people just because they belong to another ethic group and are already living on the land you want for yourself. Furthermore, the Bible says that he wants you to go out and commit cultural genocide, destroying the religious buildings and holy objects of rival religions. So come on, Christians! Hop to it! Surely you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, don't you? I'll bet you can find some non-Christian temple and start your pillage today!
If you think I'm being sarcastic, or am just making an academic point about a couple of long-forgotten verses that have no connection to the way that Christianity is practiced today, you're wrong. These biblical verses, and others like them, have been used by Christians for thousands of years to justify hundreds, if not thousands, of horrific acts of genocide. Just in the last couple of years, the Christian Yugoslav government led by the popular leader Slobodan Milosevic slaughtered huge numbers of ethnic Albanian Muslims, citing the Bible's genocidal language as justification.
Now, some peaceable apologetic Christians will argue that Christians like Milosevic have merely misunderstood the teachings of the Bible. They'll claim that God required his followers to commit genocidal atrocities during the time of the Old Testament but that Jesus brought a New Testament which instead instructs people to turn the other cheek.
First of all, Christian history does not bear this New Testament idea out. Christian armies never turned the other cheek when they slaughtered their enemies in the name of God. Church leaders supported these acts and often led the clamor for holy wars.
Secondly, the New Testament argument destroys the very foundation that Christianity is built upon. If God is really all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, then he can't possibly have meant to tell his followers to go out and engage in acts of ethnic cleansing and then have changed his mind a thousand years or so later. If God really knows all and can do whatever he wants, why couldn't he have brought Jesus and the New Testament down earlier and saved the Earth a whole lot of bloodshed? Waiting around to teach forgiveness after you've been teaching human slaughter doesn't sound very all-loving to me. Whichever tack you take, the argument that a New Testament separates modern Christianity from the atrocities of the Old Testament is a theologically unsound excuse.
That also goes for the whole rigamarole that Christians go through to give themselves the title of God's new Chosen People. This old Christian canard argues that God used to call the Jews his Chosen People, but the Jews weren't worthy, so since the arrival of Jesus, the Chosen People are the Christians. Honestly, I don't see what difference it makes who the Chosen People are -- I don't think that they ought to have the right to go around and kill people just because they aren't Chosen. It doesn't matter whether genocide takes place on the basis of ethnicity or religion. It's still genocide.Besides, all the Christian protestations about being followers of the New Testaments and not the Old Testament are shown to be the hollow excuses they are by the continued use of the Old Testament by practically every Christian church on the face of the Earth. If Christianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the Old Testament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christian priests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old Testament Verses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandments posted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize their little boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?
Christians accuse New Age practitioners of taking a buffet approach to religion: just taking whatever teachings from whatever traditions they like and then ignoring the ones they don't like. Pardon me, but I don't see how the Christians are any different. If you're a real, consistent Christian, you ought to join with other Christians to form a holy army to massacre as many non-Christians as you can, starting today.


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[Bhairitu [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

And regarding ISIS folks might want to read this report. I've mentioned
here before the ISIS guys on videos seemed to be a little too
comfortable with western slang that I wouldn't have expected religious
zealots to use.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/12/01/neo-americas-real-ties-to-isis/

As Andy Kaufman might say "we're being had."

*/I will allow emptybill to fight this intellectual battle, only
tossing into the ring, "Anyone who could have been impressed by the
notion of a 'jealous God' when growing up was probably already halfway
on the way to becoming a victim of abuse, having been programmed to
follow that path by their abusers."
/*
*//*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Sunday, December 7, 2014 6:05 PM
*Subject:* [FairfieldLife] The Christian answer to ISIS and much else
Christians like to tell the rest of us that their religion teaches
peace, love and understanding. They also are fond of saying that the
Bible is the greatest book ever written. Well, folks, they can't have
it both ways. The fact is that the Bible promotes genocide, the
systematic destruction of entire populations of human beings. If
that's Christian compassion, then I'm the Pope.
Don't believe that the Bible teaches genocide? Check out the following
verses, just two of the many from the Bible that suggest that God
/Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from
before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the
Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest
you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are
going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their
altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images
(For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is
Jealous, is a jealous God.)/
Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
/You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before
you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put
ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before
you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply
you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest,
and clear out the old because of the new./
Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9
So this is God's love: if he looks favorably upon you, he'll help you
go out and slaughter ten thousand people just because they belong to
another ethic group and are already living on the land you want for
yourself. Furthermore, the Bible says that he wants you to go out and
commit cultural genocide, destroying the religious buildings and holy
objects of rival religions. So come on, Christians! Hop to it! Surely
you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, don't you?
I'll bet you can find some non-Christian temple and start your pillage
today!
If you think I'm being sarcastic, or am just making an academic point
about a couple of long-forgotten verses that have no connection to the
way that Christianity is practiced today, you're wrong. These biblical
verses, and others like them, have been used by Christians for
thousands of years to justify hundreds, if not thousands, of horrific
acts of genocide. Just in the last couple of years, the Christian
Yugoslav government led by the popular leader Slobodan Milosevic
slaughtered huge numbers of ethnic Albanian Muslims, citing the
Bible's genocidal language as justification.
Now, some peaceable apologetic Christians will argue that Christians
like Milosevic have merely misunderstood the teachings of the Bible.
They'll claim that God required his followers to commit genocidal
atrocities during the time of the Old Testament but that Jesus brought
a New Testament which instead instructs people to turn the other cheek.
First of all, Christian history does not bear this New Testament idea
out. Christian armies never turned the other cheek when they
slaughtered their enemies in the name of God. Church leaders supported
these acts and often led the clamor for holy wars.
Secondly, the New Testament argument destroys the very foundation that
Christianity is built upon. If God is really all-powerful and
all-knowing and all-loving, then he can't possibly have meant to tell
his followers to go out and engage in acts of ethnic cleansing and
then have changed his mind a thousand years or so later. If God really
knows all and can do whatever he wants, why couldn't he have brought
Jesus and the New Testament down earlier and saved the Earth a whole
lot of bloodshed? Waiting around to teach forgiveness after you've
been teaching human slaughter doesn't sound very all-loving to me.
Whichever tack you take, the argument that a New Testament separates
modern Christianity from the atrocities of the Old Testament is a
theologically unsound excuse.
That also goes for the whole rigamarole that Christians go through to
give themselves the title of God's new Chosen People. This old
Christian canard argues that God used to call the Jews his Chosen
People, but the Jews weren't worthy, so since the arrival of Jesus,
the Chosen People are the Christians. Honestly, I don't see what
difference it makes who the Chosen People are -- I don't think that
they ought to have the right to go around and kill people just because
they aren't Chosen. It doesn't matter whether genocide takes place on
the basis of ethnicity or religion. It's still genocide.
Besides, all the Christian protestations about being followers of the
New Testaments and not the Old Testament are shown to be the hollow
excuses they are by the continued use of the Old Testament by
practically every Christian church on the face of the Earth. If
Christianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the Old
Testament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christian
priests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old Testament
Verses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandments
posted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize their
little boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?
return to irregulartimes.com
<http://irregulartimes.com/index.html>Christians accuse New Age
practitioners of taking a buffet approach to religion: just taking
whatever teachings from whatever traditions they like and then
ignoring the ones they don't like. Pardon me, but I don't see how the
Christians are any different. If you're a real, consistent Christian,
you ought to join with other Christians to form a holy army to
massacre as many non-Christians as you can, starting today.

[[e-mail]]

There has been lots of stories that many ISIS guys are not particularly religious, there are just in it for the opportunity for a lot of rapes and killing and feeling powerful. i

[salyavin808]

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@yahoogroups.com> wrote :

There has been lots of stories that many ISIS guys are not particularly religious, there are just in it for the opportunity for a lot of rapes and killing and feeling powerful.


Boys will be boys. One of the jihadis from the UK had a copy of 'The Koran for Dummies' in his rucksac when he was stopped at the border. How religiously motivated was he? There was a lot of scorn in the papers, but I think these kids are brought up in a Muslim environment and they feel a deep kinship that they feel they should fight for even if they skipped bible class.

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

I am sure Andy is right and that we all have been had (to varying extents and degrees). The key is figuring out by whom and by what.




Buyer Beware: Veterans Today and its Anti-Israel Agenda http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/

Buyer Beware: Veterans Today and its Anti-Israel A... http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/ Veterans Today (VT) is a website that bills itself as a "military veterans and foreign affairs journal." And, indeed, many of its contributors are militar...



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http://ppia.wikia.com/wiki/Veterans_Today

Veterans Today http://ppia.wikia.com/wiki/Veterans_Today Veterans Today is a well-produced disinformation website that runs an editorial line that is strongly against Israel and Saudi Arabia but has few negative...



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[Bhairitu [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

I wouldn't want to get my ass shot off for Israel either.

Post by ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
I am sure Andy is right and that we all have been had (to varying
extents and degrees). The key is figuring out by whom and by what.
Buyer Beware: Veterans Today and its Anti-Israel Agenda
<http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/>
image
<http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/>
Buyer Beware: Veterans Today and its Anti-Israel A...
<http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/>
Veterans Today (VT) is a website that bills itself as a "military
veterans and foreign affairs journal." And, indeed, many of its
contributors are militar...
View on www.splcenter.org
<http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/>
Preview by Yahoo
VeteransToday <http://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/www.veteranstoday.com>
image <http://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/www.veteranstoday.com>
VeteransToday <http://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/www.veteranstoday.com>
Consumer reviews of online businesses and websites
View on www.sitejabber.com
<http://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/www.veteranstoday.com>
Preview by Yahoo
Veterans Today <http://ppia.wikia.com/wiki/Veterans_Today>
image <http://ppia.wikia.com/wiki/Veterans_Today>
Veterans Today <http://ppia.wikia.com/wiki/Veterans_Today>
Veterans Today is a well-produced disinformation website that runs an
editorial line that is strongly against Israel and Saudi Arabia but
has few negative...
View on ppia.wikia.com <http://ppia.wikia.com/wiki/Veterans_Today>
Preview by Yahoo

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Who needs Israel when we've got such good friends in Saudi.
Why they're even lowering their sell price for crude so they
can save us from fracking-up our environment.

['Richard J. Williams' [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

On 12/7/2014 8:51 PM, emptybill wrote:>

Post by ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Who needs Israel when we've got such good friends in Saudi.
Why they're even lowering their sell price for crude so they
can save us from fracking-up our environment.

/Apparently the Saudis are neither lowering their price for oil or
curtailing production. Only Iran, the OPEC renegade is doing that./

['Richard J. Williams' [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
I wouldn't want to get my ass shot off for Israel either.

Apparently you wouldn't want to risk your life for anything you believe
in. So, I wonder how you're going to participate in a "revolution" since
you don't even seem to want to join in a street protest in Berkeley.
Shit, you can't even seem to protest the other Barry calling in the cops
on a Yahoo discussion group.

I mean, why would you want to support the only Democracy in the Middle
East, when you don't even support the Democracy in the U.S. Go figure./

Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
/

/"...myriad claims that there was a conspiracy behind 9/11 (Israel
orchestrated it, in cahoots with the American government), that the
American government is a puppet (of Israel), that the Holocaust never
happened or was greatly exaggerated (Jews made it up to manipulate
non-Jews), and, most recently, that Julian Assange, the man behind
Wikileaks, is a pawn (of Israel)."/

HateWatch:*
*http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/

Post by Bhairitu ***@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
I am sure Andy is right and that we all have been had (to varying
extents and degrees). The key is figuring out by whom and by what.
Buyer Beware: Veterans Today and its Anti-Israel Agenda
<http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/>
image
<http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/>
Buyer Beware: Veterans Today and its Anti-Israel A...
<http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/>
Veterans Today (VT) is a website that bills itself as a "military
veterans and foreign affairs journal." And, indeed, many of its
contributors are militar...
View on www.splcenter.org
<http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/>
Preview by Yahoo
VeteransToday <http://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/www.veteranstoday.com>
image <http://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/www.veteranstoday.com>
VeteransToday <http://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/www.veteranstoday.com>
Consumer reviews of online businesses and websites
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image <http://ppia.wikia.com/wiki/Veterans_Today>
Veterans Today <http://ppia.wikia.com/wiki/Veterans_Today>
Veterans Today is a well-produced disinformation website that runs an
editorial line that is strongly against Israel and Saudi Arabia but
has few negative...
View on ppia.wikia.com <http://ppia.wikia.com/wiki/Veterans_Today>
Preview by Yahoo

[Mike Dixon [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Ummm Empty... ever read the Gita? Same thing. "I come to reward the rightous and destroy the wicked" and He instructs the devotee not to be concerned for those that He judges. Now, men doing the same thing, in the *name* of God, is in itself, wicked because it is purely political as opposed to God's judgement. You might ask yourself, Why did the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob judge those groups so harshly and wanted them destroyed and why everyone? In one case, the king of Israel granted mercy and spaired some lives,really for ransom,violating what the prophet had told him. One person that he let go, gave birth to a group of people, that hundreds of years later, tried to to exterminate all of the Jews, starting with those in Persia, read the book of Esther. The Jews were destined to produce theKwisatz Haderach, oops... wrong book, I mean the Messiah, who would bring salvation to the world. Jesus 's *pedigree* goes back to the Jews in Persia. God judges righously, not men. People do all kinds of crazy things in the names of their Gods. God is not through with those that have tried to destroy the Jews in the past. "I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you".
  From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 9:05 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

 
Christians like to tell the rest of us that their religion teaches peace, love and understanding. They also are fond of saying that the Bible is the greatest book ever written. Well, folks, they can't have it both ways. The fact is that the Bible promotes genocide, the systematic destruction of entire populations of human beings. If that's Christian compassion, then I'm the Pope.
Don't believe that the Bible teaches genocide? Check out the following verses, just two of the many from the Bible that suggest that God himself thinks that genocide is a wonderful idea:
Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9
So this is God's love: if he looks favorably upon you, he'll help you go out and slaughter ten thousand people just because they belong to another ethic group and are already living on the land you want for yourself. Furthermore, the Bible says that he wants you to go out and commit cultural genocide, destroying the religious buildings and holy objects of rival religions. So come on, Christians! Hop to it! Surely you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, don't you? I'll bet you can find some non-Christian temple and start your pillage today!
If you think I'm being sarcastic, or am just making an academic point about a couple of long-forgotten verses that have no connection to the way that Christianity is practiced today, you're wrong. These biblical verses, and others like them, have been used by Christians for thousands of years to justify hundreds, if not thousands, of horrific acts of genocide. Just in the last couple of years, the Christian Yugoslav government led by the popular leader Slobodan Milosevic slaughtered huge numbers of ethnic Albanian Muslims, citing the Bible's genocidal language as justification.
Now, some peaceable apologetic Christians will argue that Christians like Milosevic have merely misunderstood the teachings of the Bible. They'll claim that God required his followers to commit genocidal atrocities during the time of the Old Testament but that Jesus brought a New Testament which instead instructs people to turn the other cheek.
First of all, Christian history does not bear this New Testament idea out. Christian armies never turned the other cheek when they slaughtered their enemies in the name of God. Church leaders supported these acts and often led the clamor for holy wars.
Secondly, the New Testament argument destroys the very foundation that Christianity is built upon. If God is really all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, then he can't possibly have meant to tell his followers to go out and engage in acts of ethnic cleansing and then have changed his mind a thousand years or so later. If God really knows all and can do whatever he wants, why couldn't he have brought Jesus and the New Testament down earlier and saved the Earth a whole lot of bloodshed? Waiting around to teach forgiveness after you've been teaching human slaughter doesn't sound very all-loving to me. Whichever tack you take, the argument that a New Testament separates modern Christianity from the atrocities of the Old Testament is a theologically unsound excuse.
That also goes for the whole rigamarole that Christians go through to give themselves the title of God's new Chosen People. This old Christian canard argues that God used to call the Jews his Chosen People, but the Jews weren't worthy, so since the arrival of Jesus, the Chosen People are the Christians. Honestly, I don't see what difference it makes who the Chosen People are -- I don't think that they ought to have the right to go around and kill people just because they aren't Chosen. It doesn't matter whether genocide takes place on the basis of ethnicity or religion. It's still genocide.Besides, all the Christian protestations about being followers of the New Testaments and not the Old Testament are shown to be the hollow excuses they are by the continued use of the Old Testament by practically every Christian church on the face of the Earth. If Christianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the Old Testament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christian priests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old Testament Verses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandments posted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize their little boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?
Christians accuse New Age practitioners of taking a buffet approach to religion: just taking whatever teachings from whatever traditions they like and then ignoring the ones they don't like. Pardon me, but I don't see how the Christians are any different. If you're a real, consistent Christian, you ought to join with other Christians to form a holy army to massacre as many non-Christians as you can, starting today.


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[Mike Dixon [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

PS In short, it's not the religion, it's the evolution of the practioners and all have fallen short of the glory of God! 
From: "Mike Dixon ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: "***@yahoogroups.com" <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

  Ummm Empty... ever read the Gita? Same thing. "I come to reward the rightous and destroy the wicked" and He instructs the devotee not to be concerned for those that He judges. Now, men doing the same thing, in the *name* of God, is in itself, wicked because it is purely political as opposed to God's judgement. You might ask yourself, Why did the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob judge those groups so harshly and wanted them destroyed and why everyone? In one case, the king of Israel granted mercy and spaired some lives,really for ransom,violating what the prophet had told him. One person that he let go, gave birth to a group of people, that hundreds of years later, tried to to exterminate all of the Jews, starting with those in Persia, read the book of Esther. The Jews were destined to produce theKwisatz Haderach, oops... wrong book, I mean the Messiah, who would bring salvation to the world. Jesus 's *pedigree* goes back to the Jews in Persia. God judges righously, not men. People do all kinds of crazy things in the names of their Gods. God is not through with those that have tried to destroy the Jews in the past. "I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you".
 

From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 9:05 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

 
Christians like to tell the rest of us that their religion teaches peace, love and understanding. They also are fond of saying that the Bible is the greatest book ever written. Well, folks, they can't have it both ways. The fact is that the Bible promotes genocide, the systematic destruction of entire populations of human beings. If that's Christian compassion, then I'm the Pope.
Don't believe that the Bible teaches genocide? Check out the following verses, just two of the many from the Bible that suggest that God himself thinks that genocide is a wonderful idea:
Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9
So this is God's love: if he looks favorably upon you, he'll help you go out and slaughter ten thousand people just because they belong to another ethic group and are already living on the land you want for yourself. Furthermore, the Bible says that he wants you to go out and commit cultural genocide, destroying the religious buildings and holy objects of rival religions. So come on, Christians! Hop to it! Surely you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, don't you? I'll bet you can find some non-Christian temple and start your pillage today!
If you think I'm being sarcastic, or am just making an academic point about a couple of long-forgotten verses that have no connection to the way that Christianity is practiced today, you're wrong. These biblical verses, and others like them, have been used by Christians for thousands of years to justify hundreds, if not thousands, of horrific acts of genocide. Just in the last couple of years, the Christian Yugoslav government led by the popular leader Slobodan Milosevic slaughtered huge numbers of ethnic Albanian Muslims, citing the Bible's genocidal language as justification.
Now, some peaceable apologetic Christians will argue that Christians like Milosevic have merely misunderstood the teachings of the Bible. They'll claim that God required his followers to commit genocidal atrocities during the time of the Old Testament but that Jesus brought a New Testament which instead instructs people to turn the other cheek.
First of all, Christian history does not bear this New Testament idea out. Christian armies never turned the other cheek when they slaughtered their enemies in the name of God. Church leaders supported these acts and often led the clamor for holy wars.
Secondly, the New Testament argument destroys the very foundation that Christianity is built upon. If God is really all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, then he can't possibly have meant to tell his followers to go out and engage in acts of ethnic cleansing and then have changed his mind a thousand years or so later. If God really knows all and can do whatever he wants, why couldn't he have brought Jesus and the New Testament down earlier and saved the Earth a whole lot of bloodshed? Waiting around to teach forgiveness after you've been teaching human slaughter doesn't sound very all-loving to me. Whichever tack you take, the argument that a New Testament separates modern Christianity from the atrocities of the Old Testament is a theologically unsound excuse.
That also goes for the whole rigamarole that Christians go through to give themselves the title of God's new Chosen People. This old Christian canard argues that God used to call the Jews his Chosen People, but the Jews weren't worthy, so since the arrival of Jesus, the Chosen People are the Christians. Honestly, I don't see what difference it makes who the Chosen People are -- I don't think that they ought to have the right to go around and kill people just because they aren't Chosen. It doesn't matter whether genocide takes place on the basis of ethnicity or religion. It's still genocide.Besides, all the Christian protestations about being followers of the New Testaments and not the Old Testament are shown to be the hollow excuses they are by the continued use of the Old Testament by practically every Christian church on the face of the Earth. If Christianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the Old Testament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christian priests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old Testament Verses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandments posted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize their little boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?
Christians accuse New Age practitioners of taking a buffet approach to religion: just taking whatever teachings from whatever traditions they like and then ignoring the ones they don't like. Pardon me, but I don't see how the Christians are any different. If you're a real, consistent Christian, you ought to join with other Christians to form a holy army to massacre as many non-Christians as you can, starting today.




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['Richard J. Williams' [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

PS In short, it's not the religion, it's the evolution of the
practioners and all have fallen short of the glory of God!

/It would probably take someone in pretty deep cognitive dissonance to
think that Christian practitioners are anything like the Christians
described in the New Testament, Mike./

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Sunday, December 7, 2014 9:54 AM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] The Christian answer to ISIS and much else
Ummm Empty... ever read the Gita? Same thing. "I come to reward the
rightous and destroy the wicked" and He instructs the devotee not to
be concerned for those that He judges. Now, men doing the same thing,
in the *name* of God, is in itself, wicked because it is purely
political as opposed to God's judgement. You might ask yourself, Why
did the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob judge those groups so harshly
and wanted them destroyed and why everyone? In one case, the king of
Israel granted mercy and spaired some lives,really for
ransom,violating what the prophet had told him. One person that he let
go, gave birth to a group of people, that hundreds of years later,
tried to to exterminate all of the Jews, starting with those in
Persia, read the book of Esther. The Jews were destined to produce the
Kwisatz Haderach, oops... wrong book, I mean the Messiah, who would
bring salvation to the world. Jesus 's *pedigree* goes back to the
Jews in Persia. God judges righously, not men. People do all kinds of
crazy things in the names of their Gods. God is not through with those
that have tried to destroy the Jews in the past. "I will bless those
that bless you and curse those that curse you".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Sunday, December 7, 2014 9:05 AM
*Subject:* [FairfieldLife] The Christian answer to ISIS and much else
Christians like to tell the rest of us that their religion teaches
peace, love and understanding. They also are fond of saying that the
Bible is the greatest book ever written. Well, folks, they can't have
it both ways. The fact is that the Bible promotes genocide, the
systematic destruction of entire populations of human beings. If
that's Christian compassion, then I'm the Pope.
Don't believe that the Bible teaches genocide? Check out the following
verses, just two of the many from the Bible that suggest that God
/Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from
before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the
Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest
you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are
going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their
altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images
(For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is
Jealous, is a jealous God.)/
Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
/You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before
you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put
ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before
you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply
you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest,
and clear out the old because of the new./
Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9
So this is God's love: if he looks favorably upon you, he'll help you
go out and slaughter ten thousand people just because they belong to
another ethic group and are already living on the land you want for
yourself. Furthermore, the Bible says that he wants you to go out and
commit cultural genocide, destroying the religious buildings and holy
objects of rival religions. So come on, Christians! Hop to it! Surely
you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, don't you?
I'll bet you can find some non-Christian temple and start your pillage
today!
If you think I'm being sarcastic, or am just making an academic point
about a couple of long-forgotten verses that have no connection to the
way that Christianity is practiced today, you're wrong. These biblical
verses, and others like them, have been used by Christians for
thousands of years to justify hundreds, if not thousands, of horrific
acts of genocide. Just in the last couple of years, the Christian
Yugoslav government led by the popular leader Slobodan Milosevic
slaughtered huge numbers of ethnic Albanian Muslims, citing the
Bible's genocidal language as justification.
Now, some peaceable apologetic Christians will argue that Christians
like Milosevic have merely misunderstood the teachings of the Bible.
They'll claim that God required his followers to commit genocidal
atrocities during the time of the Old Testament but that Jesus brought
a New Testament which instead instructs people to turn the other cheek.
First of all, Christian history does not bear this New Testament idea
out. Christian armies never turned the other cheek when they
slaughtered their enemies in the name of God. Church leaders supported
these acts and often led the clamor for holy wars.
Secondly, the New Testament argument destroys the very foundation that
Christianity is built upon. If God is really all-powerful and
all-knowing and all-loving, then he can't possibly have meant to tell
his followers to go out and engage in acts of ethnic cleansing and
then have changed his mind a thousand years or so later. If God really
knows all and can do whatever he wants, why couldn't he have brought
Jesus and the New Testament down earlier and saved the Earth a whole
lot of bloodshed? Waiting around to teach forgiveness after you've
been teaching human slaughter doesn't sound very all-loving to me.
Whichever tack you take, the argument that a New Testament separates
modern Christianity from the atrocities of the Old Testament is a
theologically unsound excuse.
That also goes for the whole rigamarole that Christians go through to
give themselves the title of God's new Chosen People. This old
Christian canard argues that God used to call the Jews his Chosen
People, but the Jews weren't worthy, so since the arrival of Jesus,
the Chosen People are the Christians. Honestly, I don't see what
difference it makes who the Chosen People are -- I don't think that
they ought to have the right to go around and kill people just because
they aren't Chosen. It doesn't matter whether genocide takes place on
the basis of ethnicity or religion. It's still genocide.
Besides, all the Christian protestations about being followers of the
New Testaments and not the Old Testament are shown to be the hollow
excuses they are by the continued use of the Old Testament by
practically every Christian church on the face of the Earth. If
Christianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the Old
Testament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christian
priests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old Testament
Verses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandments
posted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize their
little boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?
return to irregulartimes.com
<http://irregulartimes.com/index.html>Christians accuse New Age
practitioners of taking a buffet approach to religion: just taking
whatever teachings from whatever traditions they like and then
ignoring the ones they don't like. Pardon me, but I don't see how the
Christians are any different. If you're a real, consistent Christian,
you ought to join with other Christians to form a holy army to
massacre as many non-Christians as you can, starting today.

['Richard J. Williams' [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Post by Mike Dixon ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Ummm Empty... ever read the Gita?

/Not only has he read it, he probably has a copy at his bedside. How
many years did he say he was a member to the that Orthodox Christian
sect?//So, I wonder if he can spell cognitive dissonance?/

Post by Mike Dixon ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Same thing. "I come to reward the rightous and destroy the wicked" and
He instructs the devotee not to be concerned for those that He judges.
Now, men doing the same thing, in the *name* of God, is in itself,
wicked because it is purely political as opposed to God's judgement.
You might ask yourself, Why did the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
judge those groups so harshly and wanted them destroyed and why
everyone? In one case, the king of Israel granted mercy and spaired
some lives,really for ransom,violating what the prophet had told
him. One person that he let go, gave birth to a group of people, that
hundreds of years later, tried to to exterminate all of the Jews,
starting with those in Persia, read the book of Esther. The Jews were
destined to produce the
Kwisatz Haderach, oops... wrong book, I mean the Messiah, who would
bring salvation to the world. Jesus 's *pedigree* goes back to the
Jews in Persia. God judges righously, not men. People do all kinds of
crazy things in the names of their Gods. God is not through with those
that have tried to destroy the Jews in the past. "I will bless those
that bless you and curse those that curse you".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Sunday, December 7, 2014 9:05 AM
*Subject:* [FairfieldLife] The Christian answer to ISIS and much else
Christians like to tell the rest of us that their religion teaches
peace, love and understanding. They also are fond of saying that the
Bible is the greatest book ever written. Well, folks, they can't have
it both ways. The fact is that the Bible promotes genocide, the
systematic destruction of entire populations of human beings. If
that's Christian compassion, then I'm the Pope.
Don't believe that the Bible teaches genocide? Check out the following
verses, just two of the many from the Bible that suggest that God
/Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from
before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the
Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest
you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are
going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their
altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images
(For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is
Jealous, is a jealous God.)/
Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
/You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before
you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put
ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before
you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply
you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest,
and clear out the old because of the new./
Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9
So this is God's love: if he looks favorably upon you, he'll help you
go out and slaughter ten thousand people just because they belong to
another ethic group and are already living on the land you want for
yourself. Furthermore, the Bible says that he wants you to go out and
commit cultural genocide, destroying the religious buildings and holy
objects of rival religions. So come on, Christians! Hop to it! Surely
you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, don't you?
I'll bet you can find some non-Christian temple and start your pillage
today!
If you think I'm being sarcastic, or am just making an academic point
about a couple of long-forgotten verses that have no connection to the
way that Christianity is practiced today, you're wrong. These biblical
verses, and others like them, have been used by Christians for
thousands of years to justify hundreds, if not thousands, of horrific
acts of genocide. Just in the last couple of years, the Christian
Yugoslav government led by the popular leader Slobodan Milosevic
slaughtered huge numbers of ethnic Albanian Muslims, citing the
Bible's genocidal language as justification.
Now, some peaceable apologetic Christians will argue that Christians
like Milosevic have merely misunderstood the teachings of the Bible.
They'll claim that God required his followers to commit genocidal
atrocities during the time of the Old Testament but that Jesus brought
a New Testament which instead instructs people to turn the other cheek.
First of all, Christian history does not bear this New Testament idea
out. Christian armies never turned the other cheek when they
slaughtered their enemies in the name of God. Church leaders supported
these acts and often led the clamor for holy wars.
Secondly, the New Testament argument destroys the very foundation that
Christianity is built upon. If God is really all-powerful and
all-knowing and all-loving, then he can't possibly have meant to tell
his followers to go out and engage in acts of ethnic cleansing and
then have changed his mind a thousand years or so later. If God really
knows all and can do whatever he wants, why couldn't he have brought
Jesus and the New Testament down earlier and saved the Earth a whole
lot of bloodshed? Waiting around to teach forgiveness after you've
been teaching human slaughter doesn't sound very all-loving to me.
Whichever tack you take, the argument that a New Testament separates
modern Christianity from the atrocities of the Old Testament is a
theologically unsound excuse.
That also goes for the whole rigamarole that Christians go through to
give themselves the title of God's new Chosen People. This old
Christian canard argues that God used to call the Jews his Chosen
People, but the Jews weren't worthy, so since the arrival of Jesus,
the Chosen People are the Christians. Honestly, I don't see what
difference it makes who the Chosen People are -- I don't think that
they ought to have the right to go around and kill people just because
they aren't Chosen. It doesn't matter whether genocide takes place on
the basis of ethnicity or religion. It's still genocide.
Besides, all the Christian protestations about being followers of the
New Testaments and not the Old Testament are shown to be the hollow
excuses they are by the continued use of the Old Testament by
practically every Christian church on the face of the Earth. If
Christianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the Old
Testament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christian
priests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old Testament
Verses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandments
posted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize their
little boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?
return to irregulartimes.com
<http://irregulartimes.com/index.html>Christians accuse New Age
practitioners of taking a buffet approach to religion: just taking
whatever teachings from whatever traditions they like and then
ignoring the ones they don't like. Pardon me, but I don't see how the
Christians are any different. If you're a real, consistent Christian,
you ought to join with other Christians to form a holy army to
massacre as many non-Christians as you can, starting today.

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Possibly there is more to it. Or not.


I watched the Hammond video last night. Its easy to dismiss him and cast him off as delusional(1). Yet art and literature are not real either, even still, they may open us up to new ways of viewing the world, and induce new ideas and internal hypotheses -- even if the artist was bat-assed crazy. My take away is that while his story is rather far-fetched, and he may be delusional, some useful points may have emerged, both directly and from subsequent pondering.


One Hammond theme is that religious founders/leaders' messages and strategies were experimental attempts focused on incrementally improving a select set of problems for specific time, place and group of people, not universal truths applicable for all ages, problems and peoples -- and as such these targeted strategies had some unintended and unexpected negative consequences that continue through to today. And that attempts to apply such strategies to today's world are major steps backwards, not forward. He suggests righteous anger as an example of a method used in a particular era of the old testament -- focussed on combatting a perceived major problem of lethargy and laziness of a particular time and place. Not stated as such, increasing rajas to reduce tomas might be the yogic parallel. When tomas is reduced, the method is no longer applicable. But these focussed methods such as righteous anger endured past their usefulness, took on a life of their own, and create larger problems than the original ones intended to be solved.


Second, he dismisses the notion that these strategies were created by an all-knowing all powerful deity. Rather he suggests that they were brainstormed and thought out by by good intentioned, smart, yet limited individuals. Jehovah is presented as a man -- who was inaccurately deified by later "faithful" generations and centuries. (And his premise that Jehovah and Allah are the same, in his model, suggests the violence-prone parallels of some sects of all of the Abrahamic religions.)



Third, it was suggested that fear is the greatest block to social, individual and spiritual progress. My take is that irrational arguments and actions, particularly when networked across many nodes in a mob mentality situation, are driven by, are a response to, inner fear, particularly fear of change. For example, rapid change in culture adaptation of new technology, etc may cause many to cling to outdated traditions, self-help / religious models as antidotes to inner fear of change. Some good examples are the ones cited in your post on religious fundamentalism.


And that while lashing out at the irrational is reasonable and rational, a personal trait -- and one which I observe many seem to share, the impetus towards such may be rooted in fear of irrational mindsets and groups, fear of loss when such gets out of hand, spirals out of control, the world run amuck by the irrational mob (too many examples to list). Ultimately decomposed also to a fear of change.


Fourth, Hammond premises that the process of "turning within" whether TM, any meditation, prayer, any means that enable us to better know and understand our own minds -- both its limits and more limitless aspects, is the most efficient and perhaps singular antidote to fear. And he suggests that there are many effective methods to turn within (currently available and yet to be derived) devoid of traditional, cultural and religious trappings. (And that within traditional cultures and religions there are existing practices, such as prayer, which can (though not always) turn the mind within and quiet the chaos of more manifest chatter and "noise". Consequently, a solution path for reducing fear of change-- both among the irrational adherents to outdated cultural/religious practices and dogma as a, as well as fear by more the more rational -- who have (possibly unacknowledged) fear of the former -- the uncertainty and chaos of the irrational mob, may be deriving and applying, making more universally available and helping to support adaptation of such, cultural and dogma free methods of turning within.


(1) I was surprised to read Hammond's bio -- 25 years as successful corporate lawyer working on global mergers and acquisitions -- clearly an odd career culmination for the alleged soul of Brighu, Jacob, one of Jesus' apostles, Plato, Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain. Yet the career, and his nominal clarity as a speaker distinguishes him from babbling street person babbling and run-of-the-mill new-age crazy.

[salyavin808]

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :


Possibly there is more to it. Or not.


(1) I was surprised to read Hammond's bio -- 25 years as successful corporate lawyer working on global mergers and acquisitions -- clearly an odd career culmination for the alleged soul of Brighu, Jacob, one of Jesus' apostles, Plato, Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain. Yet the career, and his nominal clarity as a speaker distinguishes him from babbling street person babbling and run-of-the-mill new-age crazy.


Alleged soul indeed. But I think you make an error in assuming that because someone is smart and has a successful career then they are more likely to be correct in their theological musings. There is no end of highly intelligent people with PHD's who believe the most preposterous crap with no supporting evidence whatsoever.


It's like how Ufologists assume they have a credible witness because they are a member of the police or armed forces. There really is no way to iron out the natural human tendency to be mistaken during unusual or unexpected situations. Or to unwittingly make things up or embellish what is in the environment, or just our minds.


So George Hammond strikes me as highly deluded - no matter how sincere his beliefs. I can't tell him apart from some of my highly intelligent new age friends who believe in angels. I actually know someone who channels Jesus!


I'd like to do a Q&A with both her and George and compare results but I know the answer already as it's been done before. Parapsychology 101.

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

SD: I was surprised to read Hammond's bio -- 25 years as successful corporate lawyer working on global mergers and acquisitions -- clearly an odd career culmination for the alleged soul of Brighu, Jacob, one of Jesus' apostles, Plato, Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain. Yet the career, and his nominal clarity as a speaker distinguishes him from babbling street person babbling and run-of-the-mill new-age crazy.


Sav: Alleged soul indeed. But I think you make an error in assuming that because someone is smart and has a successful career then they are more likely to be correct in their theological musings.


SD: Actually, my point was only that such a career and speaking abilities can provide an initial screen, weeding out a certain class of crazy. It does not screen out high-functional delusionals. For example, John Nash (Nobel Prize winner, bio portrayed in Beautiful Mind) was clearly delusional -- but also able to excel in cutting edge mathematics. Nash (and Hammonds, yet I am not equating their professional skills) may have been quite competent in their professional work, yet delusional in their perceptions.


A second point that I was attempting to convey is that even delusional or imaginary works can provide insights. Again, hardly a proof of validity of Hammond's experience. But it also does not shut the door on his talk providing useful insights -- even if only indirectly (e.g., stimulating ones thinking to induce some personal insights).

[Michael Jackson [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

I used to channel Jesus myself - its not that big a deal.

From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

 


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :


Possibly there is more to it. Or not. 
(1) I was surprised to read Hammond's bio -- 25 years as successful corporate lawyer working on global mergers and acquisitions -- clearly an odd career culmination for the alleged soul of Brighu, Jacob, one of Jesus' apostles, Plato, Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain.  Yet the career, and his nominal clarity as a speaker  distinguishes him from babbling street person babbling and run-of-the-mill new-age crazy. 
Alleged soul indeed. But I think you make an error in assuming that because someone is smart and has a successful career then they are more likely to be correct in their theological musings. There is no end of highly intelligent people with PHD's who believe the most preposterous crap with no supporting evidence whatsoever.
It's like how Ufologists assume they have a credible witness because they are a member of the police or armed forces. There really is no way to iron out the natural human tendency to be mistaken during unusual or unexpected situations. Or to unwittingly make things up or embellish what is in the environment, or just our minds.
So George Hammond strikes me as highly deluded - no matter how sincere his beliefs. I can't tell him apart from some of my highly intelligent new age friends who believe in angels. I actually know someone who channels Jesus! 
I'd like to do a Q&A with both her and George and compare results but I know the answer already as it's been done before. Parapsychology 101.
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[salyavin808]

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

I used to channel Jesus myself - its not that big a deal.


LOL, it would be for me!





From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else






---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :


Possibly there is more to it. Or not.


(1) I was surprised to read Hammond's bio -- 25 years as successful corporate lawyer working on global mergers and acquisitions -- clearly an odd career culmination for the alleged soul of Brighu, Jacob, one of Jesus' apostles, Plato, Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain. Yet the career, and his nominal clarity as a speaker distinguishes him from babbling street person babbling and run-of-the-mill new-age crazy.


Alleged soul indeed. But I think you make an error in assuming that because someone is smart and has a successful career then they are more likely to be correct in their theological musings. There is no end of highly intelligent people with PHD's who believe the most preposterous crap with no supporting evidence whatsoever.


It's like how Ufologists assume they have a credible witness because they are a member of the police or armed forces. There really is no way to iron out the natural human tendency to be mistaken during unusual or unexpected situations. Or to unwittingly make things up or embellish what is in the environment, or just our minds.


So George Hammond strikes me as highly deluded - no matter how sincere his beliefs. I can't tell him apart from some of my highly intelligent new age friends who believe in angels. I actually know someone who channels Jesus!


I'd like to do a Q&A with both her and George and compare results but I know the answer already as it's been done before. Parapsychology 101.

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Nice talking points on George, I'm glad you took the time to post them. As food for thought it was certainly a success. I liked your comparison with literature and if he had presented it as a dramatic one man show he had created, I would feel differently about the whole thing. He is a creative guy and has a sense of drama. It would have impressed me more if that is how it had been presented.

But it wasn't. (BTW none of this is presented as a counter to anything you said. I am using your enjoyable post as a writing prompt without acknowledging all the points you made.)
It was presented as being an actual discussion with the not so dead Maharishi on the other side. That claim needed an epistemological ramp for the rest of us and we never got one. It was sort of breezily addressed in the beginning that we could believe whatever we wanted. He also made the case that the quality of the information itself should be its own verification. I didn't hear anything that would require resorting to a supernatural source for these ideas and images. He seem perfectly capable on his own having written numerous books containing many of the ideas presented as coming from Maharishi.

I could tell from talking with people at the event that George's business success was an influencing factor on people taking him seriously. I don't know how I feel about that. In general I am wary of even doctors writing diet books, since they receive so little nutrition training. I think people tend to get more credit than is deserved for being successful in one field and then trying to transfer the feeling of credibility to another unrelated area. It is one of our cognitive gaps probably created out of our social hierarchy aware primate nature. Our brains were really not built to deal with the kind of distinctions we are faced with today. Man has lots of bananas so must be alpha!

The case for why we should take what he said seriously was for him to make. I find it curious that none of the smarty pants holy traditions dudes could anticipate that such an argument was missing but was deserved. It sort of put us in the position of unwarranted faith in a guy I didn't even know. That doesn't sound like respectful epistemological awareness to me.

I told George that although I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, I could think of all sorts of ways to present this in a way that would be viewed with more credibility from the movement or from reasonable people. He didn't address my point but restated some of the history of presenting it to Hagelin. I told him that I thought it was Maharishi's responsibility to present it in a way the people he personally chose to run his movement could accept. By the time he gave it to George, it was too late. George thought the knowledge stood on its own as its proof. I told him that I thought any of us could have created these ideas, they did not require supernatural agency. Then we had to go.

On one hand we have the possibility that it was all as George presented, a discussion with dead people about how we should view life. On the other we have all the vagaries of the human mind with its fantastic generative abilities within and outside our consciousness.

Coming back to your example of literature, I know which one rings truest to me.

I think he made way too much of a big deal about fear. Fear is my friend when I need it, and not a dominate emotion that rules my life otherwise. I don't have any complaints for how fear helps me keep my eye on the ball of survival and don't need any more or any less. I thought all those holy guys were way off the mark in its importance as something they needed to tell us. I would have preferred a cure for cancer!

Thanks again for continuing the discussion. I find many levels of fascination concerning how people view this event. Any other perspectives you want to share would be welcome.






---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :


Possibly there is more to it. Or not.


I watched the Hammond video last night. Its easy to dismiss him and cast him off as delusional(1). Yet art and literature are not real either, even still, they may open us up to new ways of viewing the world, and induce new ideas and internal hypotheses -- even if the artist was bat-assed crazy. My take away is that while his story is rather far-fetched, and he may be delusional, some useful points may have emerged, both directly and from subsequent pondering.


One Hammond theme is that religious founders/leaders' messages and strategies were experimental attempts focused on incrementally improving a select set of problems for specific time, place and group of people, not universal truths applicable for all ages, problems and peoples -- and as such these targeted strategies had some unintended and unexpected negative consequences that continue through to today. And that attempts to apply such strategies to today's world are major steps backwards, not forward. He suggests righteous anger as an example of a method used in a particular era of the old testament -- focussed on combatting a perceived major problem of lethargy and laziness of a particular time and place. Not stated as such, increasing rajas to reduce tomas might be the yogic parallel. When tomas is reduced, the method is no longer applicable. But these focussed methods such as righteous anger endured past their usefulness, took on a life of their own, and create larger problems than the original ones intended to be solved.


Second, he dismisses the notion that these strategies were created by an all-knowing all powerful deity. Rather he suggests that they were brainstormed and thought out by by good intentioned, smart, yet limited individuals. Jehovah is presented as a man -- who was inaccurately deified by later "faithful" generations and centuries. (And his premise that Jehovah and Allah are the same, in his model, suggests the violence-prone parallels of some sects of all of the Abrahamic religions.)



Third, it was suggested that fear is the greatest block to social, individual and spiritual progress. My take is that irrational arguments and actions, particularly when networked across many nodes in a mob mentality situation, are driven by, are a response to, inner fear, particularly fear of change. For example, rapid change in culture adaptation of new technology, etc may cause many to cling to outdated traditions, self-help / religious models as antidotes to inner fear of change. Some good examples are the ones cited in your post on religious fundamentalism.


And that while lashing out at the irrational is reasonable and rational, a personal trait -- and one which I observe many seem to share, the impetus towards such may be rooted in fear of irrational mindsets and groups, fear of loss when such gets out of hand, spirals out of control, the world run amuck by the irrational mob (too many examples to list). Ultimately decomposed also to a fear of change.


Fourth, Hammond premises that the process of "turning within" whether TM, any meditation, prayer, any means that enable us to better know and understand our own minds -- both its limits and more limitless aspects, is the most efficient and perhaps singular antidote to fear. And he suggests that there are many effective methods to turn within (currently available and yet to be derived) devoid of traditional, cultural and religious trappings. (And that within traditional cultures and religions there are existing practices, such as prayer, which can (though not always) turn the mind within and quiet the chaos of more manifest chatter and "noise". Consequently, a solution path for reducing fear of change-- both among the irrational adherents to outdated cultural/religious practices and dogma as a, as well as fear by more the more rational -- who have (possibly unacknowledged) fear of the former -- the uncertainty and chaos of the irrational mob, may be deriving and applying, making more universally available and helping to support adaptation of such, cultural and dogma free methods of turning within.


(1) I was surprised to read Hammond's bio -- 25 years as successful corporate lawyer working on global mergers and acquisitions -- clearly an odd career culmination for the alleged soul of Brighu, Jacob, one of Jesus' apostles, Plato, Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain. Yet the career, and his nominal clarity as a speaker distinguishes him from babbling street person babbling and run-of-the-mill new-age crazy.

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Curtis,


Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I am still playing catch-up -- only watching the video last night and reading all the relevant posts that I could find yesterday -- including yours and the detailed summary by another. So I am looking for reasons to not just dismiss the whole thing as the odd trip of a high functioning delusional. My post this morning was an attempt to work with some of the ideas Hammond presented. (Consistent with your views I think) I find little to nothing in the presentation that required the mystical storyline.


That is, even if 1) George had the actual experience, 2) he is not delusional, 3) and the universe is actually structured like that (past mystics living as light beams in a heavenly space, teaming up over past 10,000 years as a band of superheros to enable us to live long and prosper), (three rather large ifs), George could have simple taken the insights and presented them in a consistent and logical fashion -- perhaps buffered by better historical context, logic, flow and consistency. That is, the (potentially) useful and actionable message points (such as the ones that I listed in my prior post) are not more credible to me simple because MMY, SBS, Shankara / (Vyasa), Brighu, Jehovah, allegedly currently support them. 30 years ago, I probably would have jumped out of my seat. But for many years I have questioned MMY's theories, insights, policies. logic, scientific basis, etc. (Not dismissed or entirely rejected but certainly screened, re-examined, viewed in terms of their fruit (lives and behaviors of his students) and placed in a much larger context. And, when honest with myself, I have little to go on regarding SBS, Shankara other than MMY's views, and some translated writings written for a quite difference audience.


And, the Movement (light beam superhero team) has lost credibility points in my evaluation scheme (admittedly a flawed and imperfect system and perspective) in that is took them so long to figure out what would appear to be fairly straightforward insights to adjust their initiatives based on experiential feedback and refine them over time. And that it never occurred to them to do such prior to MMY jumping in is a strange twist???!!!


As to George's mystical bio, he lost large credibility points with me on that. Parallel to the above, the actionable message gains no more usefulness or credibility simply because George was allegedly (self-proclaimed) Jacob, an apostle that I am not particularly familiar with (and I am not exactly hanging on the words of the four I sort of know). Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain (both of whom I like but do not look towards for deep metaphysical advice and insights) and John the Baptist (an intriguing figure whose full depth of story I sense is not really known in depth -- and as such presents little to me as a expert witness).


And Plato??!! As many point out, the oddness that so many who reveal their (perceived, alleged) past lives are often the great and powerful -- not joe the plumber types -- though statistically and rationally, most people were of the latter status (assuming reincarnation, for the moment). Hereclitus maybe, but Plato??!!. And Pathagoras??? And Brighu, father of MMY andShankara !!!??? (not just a young priest boy at Brighus ashram or something). The spiritual bio raises not only the question of delusion, but massive delusions of grandeur. And for what? The bio (to me) diminishes the (potentially) actionable points of the message. So why add it even if it were true?


Why the mystical trappings? First, the pre- and actual "storyline" did get my (and it appears others) attention more than would have some obscure announcement that "this old guv turned corporate attorney just published a dry treatise on his views progressions of vedic and abrahamic religions". (yawn. While perhaps interesting, not highest on my list of books and topics to read and study).


And maybe this is a performance art piece, (egged on by actual seances with Andy Kaufman perhaps, ha) where George purposely went over the top to signal his attention getting clowning -- yet still provide a platform for his intellectually derived message.


Still processing all of this.

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

If you had only written this line:

"the Movement (light beam superhero team) "

It would have been worth the read! But the rest of it was great too. I can't say I really walked in with an open mind. But I was willing to let George make a case and then evaluate it from there. I didn't see him make any case at all for credibility. He seemed to dismiss it as a necessary concept. Given the extend of his claims that may have been his best and only move epistemologically!

I wrote one post from the perspective of Maharishi's teaching when he was alive. I also started a post detailing all the areas that I think the dead Maharishi contradicts his living teaching but have not posted it. I think it is interesting from the perspective of belief systems to line up the two.

Another post was more what I think from my own perspective outside Maharishi's thought system. I am not currently a follower of his teaching although I once was very involved. That was my best guess for how a guy like George could end up making such an elaborate presentation. I do not believe there is any dead Maharishi to contact, so I go in a different direction from the supernatural.

My biggest interest from the whole project is to use it as a way to better understand who people put together such beliefs. That includes Jerry whose presence and careful inclusion in the video was a statement about his taking it seriously at least. I spoke with Debbie and Jerry right afterwards briefly but it was not the time to probe. I did not get the impression that he felt his trip had been wasted, and they came from Cali. But I also know that Jerry does not want to be publicly quoted about this whole thing. The movement does not take kindly to this whole affair and it will not help him in any way to get mixed up with making statements about it. I can understand that. His opinion about such things does not hold the weight for me it once did but I still have great affection for him.

I think you have a pretty compassionate approach toward all the key players that I can relate to. George seemed sincere to me. But that sincerity and exactly $1.58 will get you a coffee of the day at Starbucks.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Curtis,


Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I am still playing catch-up -- only watching the video last night and reading all the relevant posts that I could find yesterday -- including yours and the detailed summary by another. So I am looking for reasons to not just dismiss the whole thing as the odd trip of a high functioning delusional. My post this morning was an attempt to work with some of the ideas Hammond presented. (Consistent with your views I think) I find little to nothing in the presentation that required the mystical storyline.


That is, even if 1) George had the actual experience, 2) he is not delusional, 3) and the universe is actually structured like that (past mystics living as light beams in a heavenly space, teaming up over past 10,000 years as a band of superheros to enable us to live long and prosper), (three rather large ifs), George could have simple taken the insights and presented them in a consistent and logical fashion -- perhaps buffered by better historical context, logic, flow and consistency. That is, the (potentially) useful and actionable message points (such as the ones that I listed in my prior post) are not more credible to me simple because MMY, SBS, Shankara / (Vyasa), Brighu, Jehovah, allegedly currently support them. 30 years ago, I probably would have jumped out of my seat. But for many years I have questioned MMY's theories, insights, policies. logic, scientific basis, etc. (Not dismissed or entirely rejected but certainly screened, re-examined, viewed in terms of their fruit (lives and behaviors of his students) and placed in a much larger context. And, when honest with myself, I have little to go on regarding SBS, Shankara other than MMY's views, and some translated writings written for a quite difference audience.


And, the Movement (light beam superhero team) has lost credibility points in my evaluation scheme (admittedly a flawed and imperfect system and perspective) in that is took them so long to figure out what would appear to be fairly straightforward insights to adjust their initiatives based on experiential feedback and refine them over time. And that it never occurred to them to do such prior to MMY jumping in is a strange twist???!!!


As to George's mystical bio, he lost large credibility points with me on that. Parallel to the above, the actionable message gains no more usefulness or credibility simply because George was allegedly (self-proclaimed) Jacob, an apostle that I am not particularly familiar with (and I am not exactly hanging on the words of the four I sort of know). Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain (both of whom I like but do not look towards for deep metaphysical advice and insights) and John the Baptist (an intriguing figure whose full depth of story I sense is not really known in depth -- and as such presents little to me as a expert witness).


And Plato??!! As many point out, the oddness that so many who reveal their (perceived, alleged) past lives are often the great and powerful -- not joe the plumber types -- though statistically and rationally, most people were of the latter status (assuming reincarnation, for the moment). Hereclitus maybe, but Plato??!!. And Pathagoras??? And Brighu, father of MMY andShankara !!!??? (not just a young priest boy at Brighus ashram or something). The spiritual bio raises not only the question of delusion, but massive delusions of grandeur. And for what? The bio (to me) diminishes the (potentially) actionable points of the message. So why add it even if it were true?


Why the mystical trappings? First, the pre- and actual "storyline" did get my (and it appears others) attention more than would have some obscure announcement that "this old guv turned corporate attorney just published a dry treatise on his views progressions of vedic and abrahamic religions". (yawn. While perhaps interesting, not highest on my list of books and topics to read and study).


And maybe this is a performance art piece, (egged on by actual seances with Andy Kaufman perhaps, ha) where George purposely went over the top to signal his attention getting clowning -- yet still provide a platform for his intellectually derived message.


Still processing all of this.

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Curtis: "George thought the knowledge stood on its own as its proof." That is an odd statement, particularly for a successful corporate attorney trained in the legal requisites for evidence and its nuances. If his objective is to stun people into silence -- with with nonsensical bravado -- he may be on to something.

Curtis: "The case for why we should take what he said seriously was for him to make. I find it curious that none of the smarty pants holy traditions dudes could anticipate that such an argument was missing but was deserved. It sort of put us in the position of unwarranted faith in a guy I didn't even know. That doesn't sound like respectful epistemological awareness to me."

Yes, particularly Shankara who successfully debated for days on end on the subtlest of points with the best scholars and advocates in the land. And Vyasa who transcribed, organized and compiled a massively complex set of documents/scriptures. Does it make any sense at all that they would send George off to tell the world an astonishing incredulous story with apparently no guidance as to how to effectively make a set of valid and compelling arguments as to its validity?


Curtis: "I told him that I thought it was Maharishi's responsibility to present it in a way the people he personally chose to run his movement could accept."
Yes. Why not appear to those directly administering the TMO -- e.g., Tony, John and Bevan. Let them compare notes and triangulate the validity of the message, etc. And act accordingly.


Curtis: "I could tell from talking with people at the event that George's business success was an influencing factor on people taking him seriously."
I made some points on this in adjacent posts. I agree. Expertise in one field does not specifically transfer into others. At best his background is a first level screen for weeding out those seriously challenged (I was going to say "total nut jobs" -- but that diminishes real people with real problems) And George's expertise has not really been established. That is, being a corporate attorneys is not in itself a high mark of overall competence. I know too many exceptions.


Curtis: "I think he made way too much of a big deal about fear. Fear is my friend when I need it, and not a dominate emotion that rules my life otherwise. I don't have any complaints for how fear helps me keep my eye on the ball of survival and don't need any more or any less. I thought all those holy guys were way off the mark in its importance as something they needed to tell us."
Fear is an interesting emotion -- much of its processed in lower pre-human structures of the brain beyond our conscious awareness. I think fear may play a deeper role in shaping more conscious emotions and impulses than we suspect. However, platitudes about "Just don't fear" are weak tools in rooting out core (destructive, vs protective) fear mechanisms. At least they could have given a nod to modern neuroscience and said "Know thy Amygdala" -- and pointed the way toward ripe and powerful hypotheses that could be experimentally validated.


(Which is a larger concern that I have with teachers soaked in traditional knowledge -- and who make bold assertive claims about the nature and functioning of the mind, but have little or no exposure to or understanding of the extensive research on mind and brain -- particularly over the psst 10 yeas as neuroimaging technologies have become far more powerful and available (via much lower costs) -- such as Functional MRIs.


I am curious about the Nov 30 audience. The video had a number of audience shots, but generally the same several clusters of people over and over again. Was the audience really that small? Or more of a camera angle limitation? (And it was odd to see a number of vaguely familiar forms -- but not being able to place them. Though Jerry was much the same -- aged but clearly Jerry.)

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Curtis: If you had only written this line: "the Movement (light beam superhero team) " ...
Revision: Light beam superhero dream team.

[Michael Jackson [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

The deal is that Hammond was traumatized by his sister's sudden death and could not handle it, leading to a mental/emotional crisis which coupled with his own fear of death and his desire to see her/talk to her led to an inability to distinguish reality from fantasy. So his musings, inner ruminations, dreams, inner dialogue etc led to his believing he was hearing/seeing what he wanted to experience.

He may well be a nice guy and may have done financially successful things, but that doesn't mean he isn't delusional now. I mean, come on, what are the chances that the things Marshy, Guru Dev, Shankara, Jesus etc would have told him just happens to corroborate all the historical/philosophical stuff Hammond himself has been writing about for years?
And for him to blabber about what important historical people he had been in past lives?? Does that not strike anyone else as a strident cry for attention? He might as well have stood onstage and hollered "Look at me! Look at me! I'm special! I'm important!"
Not to mention the fact that he claimed to have been father to BOTH Shankara and Marshy in one of his lives, which in essence means he is claiming that the entire Shankaracharya tradition and the TM that Marshy claimed came out of the Shankaracharya tradtion all sprang from Hammond's own loins. (even tho he never expressly stated such) You think that isn't a cry for attention??

He is a guy who need some psychological counseling, instead of people giving him the attention he so desperately craves.

From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 4:51 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

  Curtis, 
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I am still playing catch-up -- only watching the video last night and reading all the relevant posts that I could find yesterday -- including yours and the detailed summary by another. So I am looking for reasons to not just dismiss the whole thing as the odd trip of a high functioning delusional. My post this morning was an attempt to work with some of the ideas Hammond presented. (Consistent with your views I think) I find little to nothing in the presentation that required the mystical storyline. 
That is, even if 1) George had the actual experience, 2) he is not delusional, 3) and the universe is  actually structured like that (past mystics living as light beams in a heavenly space, teaming up over past 10,000 years as a band of superheros to enable us to live long and prosper), (three rather large ifs), George could have simple taken the insights and presented them in a consistent and logical fashion --  perhaps buffered by better historical context, logic, flow and consistency. That is, the (potentially) useful and actionable message points (such as the ones that I listed in my prior post) are not more credible to me simple because MMY, SBS, Shankara / (Vyasa), Brighu, Jehovah,  allegedly currently support them.  30 years ago, I probably would have jumped out of my seat.  But for many years I have questioned MMY's theories, insights, policies. logic, scientific basis, etc. (Not dismissed or entirely rejected but certainly screened, re-examined, viewed in terms of their fruit (lives and behaviors of his students) and placed in a much larger context. And, when honest with myself, I have little to go on regarding SBS, Shankara other than MMY's views, and some translated writings written for a quite difference audience. 
And, the Movement (light beam superhero team) has lost credibility points in my evaluation scheme (admittedly a flawed and imperfect system and perspective) in that is took them so long to figure out what would appear to be fairly straightforward insights to adjust their initiatives based on experiential feedback and refine them over time. And that it never occurred to them to do such prior to MMY jumping in is a strange twist???!!!     
As to George's mystical bio, he lost large credibility points with me on that. Parallel to the above,  the actionable message gains no more usefulness or credibility simply because George was allegedly (self-proclaimed) Jacob, an apostle that I am not particularly familiar with (and I am not exactly hanging on the words of the four I sort of know). Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain (both of whom I like but do not look towards for deep metaphysical advice and insights) and John the Baptist (an intriguing figure whose full depth of story I sense is not really known in depth -- and as such presents little to me as a expert witness).  
And Plato??!! As many point out, the oddness that so many who reveal their (perceived, alleged)  past lives are often the great and powerful -- not joe the plumber types -- though statistically and rationally, most people were of the latter status (assuming reincarnation, for the moment).  Hereclitus maybe, but Plato??!!. And Pathagoras??? And Brighu, father of MMY andShankara !!!???  (not just a young priest boy at Brighus ashram or something). The spiritual bio raises not only the question of delusion, but massive delusions of grandeur. And for what? The bio (to me) diminishes the (potentially) actionable points of the message. So why add it even if it were true?
Why the mystical trappings?   First, the pre- and actual "storyline" did get my (and it appears others) attention more than would have some obscure announcement that "this old guv turned corporate attorney just published a dry treatise on his views progressions of vedic and abrahamic religions". (yawn. While perhaps interesting, not highest on my list of books and topics to read and study).
And maybe this is a performance art piece, (egged on by actual seances with Andy Kaufman perhaps, ha) where George purposely went over the top to signal his attention getting clowning -- yet still provide a platform for his intellectually derived message.
Still processing all of this.               #yiv5455720476 #yiv5455720476 -- #yiv5455720476ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv5455720476 #yiv5455720476ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv5455720476 #yiv5455720476ygrp-mkp #yiv5455720476hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv5455720476 #yiv5455720476ygrp-mkp #yiv5455720476ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv5455720476 #yiv5455720476ygrp-mkp .yiv5455720476ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv5455720476 #yiv5455720476ygrp-mkp .yiv5455720476ad p {margin:0;}#yiv5455720476 #yiv5455720476ygrp-mkp .yiv5455720476ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv5455720476 #yiv5455720476ygrp-sponsor #yiv5455720476ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv5455720476 #yiv5455720476ygrp-sponsor #yiv5455720476ygrp-lc #yiv5455720476hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv5455720476 #yiv5455720476ygrp-sponsor #yiv5455720476ygrp-lc .yiv5455720476ad 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[Michael Jackson [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

"I thought all those holy guys were way off the mark in its importance as something they needed to tell us. I would have preferred a cure for cancer!"
Having been involved in new age stuff for a good many years, I must say this is one of the most telling points.

All the so-called ascended masters, angels and archangels and masters who are no longer in a body are real big on all sorts of esoteric bullshit, but real short on real time practical knowledge and common sense help for those of us here on earth. That's because its all bullshit except for some flowery words to make people feel good and usually to get them to give up their money or sex. From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 3:21 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

 

Nice talking points on George, I'm glad you took the time to post them. As food for thought it was certainly a success. I liked your comparison with literature and if he had presented it as a dramatic one man show he had created, I would feel differently about the whole thing. He is a creative guy and has a sense of drama. It would have impressed me more if that is how it had been presented.

But it wasn't. (BTW none of this is presented as a counter to anything you said. I am using your enjoyable post as a writing prompt without acknowledging all the points you made.)
It was presented as being an actual discussion with the not so dead Maharishi on the other side. That claim needed an epistemological ramp for the rest of us and we never got one. It was sort of breezily addressed in the beginning that we could believe whatever we wanted. He also made the case that the quality of the information itself should be its own verification. I didn't hear anything that would require resorting to a supernatural source for these ideas and images. He seem perfectly capable on his own having written numerous books containing many of the ideas presented as coming from Maharishi.

I could tell from talking with people at the event that George's business success was an influencing factor on people taking him seriously. I don't know how I feel about that. In general I am wary of even doctors writing diet books, since they receive so little nutrition training. I think people tend to get more credit than is deserved for being successful in one field and then trying to transfer the feeling of credibility to another unrelated area. It is one of our cognitive gaps probably created out of our social hierarchy aware primate nature. Our brains were really not built to deal with the kind of distinctions we are faced with today. Man has lots of bananas so must be alpha!

The case for why we should take what he said seriously was for him to make. I find it curious that none of the smarty pants holy traditions dudes could anticipate that such an argument was missing but was deserved. It sort of put us in the position of unwarranted faith in a guy I didn't even know. That doesn't sound like respectful epistemological awareness to me.

I told George that although I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, I could think of all sorts of ways to present this in a way that would be viewed with more credibility from the movement or from reasonable people. He didn't address my point but restated some of the history of presenting it to Hagelin.  I told him that I thought it was Maharishi's responsibility to present it in a way the people he personally chose to run his movement could accept. By the time he gave it to George, it was too late. George thought the knowledge stood on its own as its proof. I told him that I thought any of us could have created these ideas, they did not require supernatural agency. Then we had to go.

On one hand we have the possibility that it was all as George presented, a discussion with dead people about how we should view life. On the other we have all the vagaries of the human mind with its fantastic generative abilities within and outside our consciousness.

Coming back to your example of literature, I know which one rings truest to me.

I think he made way too much of a big deal about fear. Fear is my friend when I need it, and not a dominate emotion that rules my life otherwise. I don't have any complaints for how fear helps me keep my eye on the ball of survival and don't need any more or any less. I thought all those holy guys were way off the mark in its importance as something they needed to tell us. I would have preferred a cure for cancer!

Thanks again for continuing the discussion. I find many levels of fascination concerning how people view this event. Any other perspectives you want to share would be welcome.


  



---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :




Possibly there is more to it. Or not. 
I watched the Hammond video last night.  Its easy to dismiss him and  cast him off as delusional(1). Yet art and literature are not real either, even still, they may open us up to new ways of viewing the world, and induce new ideas and internal hypotheses  -- even if the artist was bat-assed crazy.  My take away is that while his story is rather far-fetched, and he may be delusional, some useful points may have emerged, both directly and from subsequent pondering.  
One Hammond theme is that religious founders/leaders' messages and strategies were experimental attempts focused on incrementally improving a select set of problems for specific  time, place and group of people, not universal truths applicable for all ages, problems and peoples -- and as such these targeted strategies had some unintended and unexpected negative consequences that continue through to today.  And that attempts to apply such strategies to today's world are major steps backwards, not forward.  He suggests righteous anger as an example of a method used in a particular era of the old testament -- focussed on combatting a perceived major problem of lethargy and laziness of a particular time and place.  Not stated as such, increasing rajas to reduce tomas might be the yogic parallel. When tomas is reduced, the method is no longer applicable. But these focussed methods such as righteous anger endured past their usefulness, took on a life of their own, and create larger problems than the original ones intended to be solved.    
Second, he dismisses the notion that  these strategies were created by an all-knowing all powerful deity. Rather he suggests that they were brainstormed and thought out by by good intentioned, smart, yet limited individuals. Jehovah is presented as a man -- who was inaccurately deified by later "faithful" generations and centuries. (And his premise that Jehovah and Allah are the same, in his model, suggests the violence-prone parallels of some sects of all of the Abrahamic religions.)

Third, it was suggested that fear is the greatest block to social, individual and spiritual progress. My take is that irrational arguments and actions, particularly when networked across many nodes in a mob mentality situation, are driven by, are a response to, inner fear, particularly fear of change. For example, rapid change in culture adaptation of new technology, etc may cause many to cling to outdated traditions, self-help / religious models as antidotes to inner fear of change. Some good examples are the ones cited in your post on religious fundamentalism.
And that while lashing out at the irrational is reasonable and rational, a personal trait -- and one which I observe many seem to share, the impetus towards such may be rooted in fear of irrational mindsets and groups, fear of loss when such gets out of hand, spirals out of control, the world run amuck by the irrational mob (too many examples to list). Ultimately decomposed also to a fear of change.  
Fourth, Hammond premises that the process of "turning within" whether TM, any meditation, prayer, any means that enable us to better know and understand our own minds -- both its limits and more limitless aspects, is the most efficient and perhaps singular antidote to fear. And he suggests that there are many effective methods to turn within (currently available and yet to be derived) devoid of traditional, cultural and religious trappings. (And that within traditional cultures and religions there are existing practices, such as prayer, which can (though not always) turn the mind within and quiet the chaos of more manifest chatter and "noise". Consequently, a solution path for reducing fear of change-- both among the irrational adherents to outdated cultural/religious practices and dogma as a, as well as fear by more the more rational -- who have (possibly unacknowledged) fear of the former -- the uncertainty and chaos of the irrational mob, may be deriving and applying, making more universally available and helping to support adaptation of such, cultural and dogma free methods of turning within. 
(1) I was surprised to read Hammond's bio -- 25 years as successful corporate lawyer working on global mergers and acquisitions -- clearly an odd career culmination for the alleged soul of Brighu, Jacob, one of Jesus' apostles, Plato, Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain.  Yet the career, and his nominal clarity as a speaker  distinguishes him from babbling street person babbling and run-of-the-mill new-age crazy.   #yiv2165448740 #yiv2165448740 -- #yiv2165448740ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv2165448740 #yiv2165448740ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv2165448740 #yiv2165448740ygrp-mkp #yiv2165448740hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv2165448740 #yiv2165448740ygrp-mkp #yiv2165448740ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv2165448740 #yiv2165448740ygrp-mkp .yiv2165448740ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv2165448740 #yiv2165448740ygrp-mkp .yiv2165448740ad p {margin:0;}#yiv2165448740 #yiv2165448740ygrp-mkp 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[salyavin808]

---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

"I thought all those holy guys were way off the mark in its importance as something they needed to tell us. I would have preferred a cure for cancer!"

Having been involved in new age stuff for a good many years, I must say this is one of the most telling points.



All the so-called ascended masters, angels and archangels and masters who are no longer in a body are real big on all sorts of esoteric bullshit, but real short on real time practical knowledge and common sense help for those of us here on earth. That's because its all bullshit except for some flowery words to make people feel good and usually to get them to give up their money or sex.


Did anyone ever ask the "ascended" where their energy came from? Unless they are growing food and eating it they are going to run out of steam very quickly without an exchange of energy in metabolism but how would a "light being" eat anyway?


It's answers like that I'd like to hear but most people prolly too overawed to be talking to The Big Cheese to wonder about the simple physics of it,


Another major question for George (or anyone in the know) would be this re-incarnation contradiction: If we do re-incarnate, how come all these holy dudes were hanging out somewhere else instead of being reborn? It's all too convenient - not that I ever believed it - but you can't have both rebirth and an afterlife can you?


It's all just too easy to shoot down.
From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 3:21 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else





Nice talking points on George, I'm glad you took the time to post them. As food for thought it was certainly a success. I liked your comparison with literature and if he had presented it as a dramatic one man show he had created, I would feel differently about the whole thing. He is a creative guy and has a sense of drama. It would have impressed me more if that is how it had been presented.

But it wasn't. (BTW none of this is presented as a counter to anything you said. I am using your enjoyable post as a writing prompt without acknowledging all the points you made.)
It was presented as being an actual discussion with the not so dead Maharishi on the other side. That claim needed an epistemological ramp for the rest of us and we never got one. It was sort of breezily addressed in the beginning that we could believe whatever we wanted. He also made the case that the quality of the information itself should be its own verification. I didn't hear anything that would require resorting to a supernatural source for these ideas and images. He seem perfectly capable on his own having written numerous books containing many of the ideas presented as coming from Maharishi.

I could tell from talking with people at the event that George's business success was an influencing factor on people taking him seriously. I don't know how I feel about that. In general I am wary of even doctors writing diet books, since they receive so little nutrition training. I think people tend to get more credit than is deserved for being successful in one field and then trying to transfer the feeling of credibility to another unrelated area. It is one of our cognitive gaps probably created out of our social hierarchy aware primate nature. Our brains were really not built to deal with the kind of distinctions we are faced with today. Man has lots of bananas so must be alpha!

The case for why we should take what he said seriously was for him to make. I find it curious that none of the smarty pants holy traditions dudes could anticipate that such an argument was missing but was deserved. It sort of put us in the position of unwarranted faith in a guy I didn't even know. That doesn't sound like respectful epistemological awareness to me.

I told George that although I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, I could think of all sorts of ways to present this in a way that would be viewed with more credibility from the movement or from reasonable people. He didn't address my point but restated some of the history of presenting it to Hagelin. I told him that I thought it was Maharishi's responsibility to present it in a way the people he personally chose to run his movement could accept. By the time he gave it to George, it was too late. George thought the knowledge stood on its own as its proof. I told him that I thought any of us could have created these ideas, they did not require supernatural agency. Then we had to go.

On one hand we have the possibility that it was all as George presented, a discussion with dead people about how we should view life. On the other we have all the vagaries of the human mind with its fantastic generative abilities within and outside our consciousness.

Coming back to your example of literature, I know which one rings truest to me.

I think he made way too much of a big deal about fear. Fear is my friend when I need it, and not a dominate emotion that rules my life otherwise. I don't have any complaints for how fear helps me keep my eye on the ball of survival and don't need any more or any less. I thought all those holy guys were way off the mark in its importance as something they needed to tell us. I would have preferred a cure for cancer!

Thanks again for continuing the discussion. I find many levels of fascination concerning how people view this event. Any other perspectives you want to share would be welcome.






---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :





Possibly there is more to it. Or not.


I watched the Hammond video last night. Its easy to dismiss him and cast him off as delusional(1). Yet art and literature are not real either, even still, they may open us up to new ways of viewing the world, and induce new ideas and internal hypotheses -- even if the artist was bat-assed crazy. My take away is that while his story is rather far-fetched, and he may be delusional, some useful points may have emerged, both directly and from subsequent pondering.


One Hammond theme is that religious founders/leaders' messages and strategies were experimental attempts focused on incrementally improving a select set of problems for specific time, place and group of people, not universal truths applicable for all ages, problems and peoples -- and as such these targeted strategies had some unintended and unexpected negative consequences that continue through to today. And that attempts to apply such strategies to today's world are major steps backwards, not forward. He suggests righteous anger as an example of a method used in a particular era of the old testament -- focussed on combatting a perceived major problem of lethargy and laziness of a particular time and place. Not stated as such, increasing rajas to reduce tomas might be the yogic parallel. When tomas is reduced, the method is no longer applicable. But these focussed methods such as righteous anger endured past their usefulness, took on a life of their own, and create larger problems than the original ones intended to be solved.


Second, he dismisses the notion that these strategies were created by an all-knowing all powerful deity. Rather he suggests that they were brainstormed and thought out by by good intentioned, smart, yet limited individuals. Jehovah is presented as a man -- who was inaccurately deified by later "faithful" generations and centuries. (And his premise that Jehovah and Allah are the same, in his model, suggests the violence-prone parallels of some sects of all of the Abrahamic religions.)



Third, it was suggested that fear is the greatest block to social, individual and spiritual progress. My take is that irrational arguments and actions, particularly when networked across many nodes in a mob mentality situation, are driven by, are a response to, inner fear, particularly fear of change. For example, rapid change in culture adaptation of new technology, etc may cause many to cling to outdated traditions, self-help / religious models as antidotes to inner fear of change. Some good examples are the ones cited in your post on religious fundamentalism.


And that while lashing out at the irrational is reasonable and rational, a personal trait -- and one which I observe many seem to share, the impetus towards such may be rooted in fear of irrational mindsets and groups, fear of loss when such gets out of hand, spirals out of control, the world run amuck by the irrational mob (too many examples to list). Ultimately decomposed also to a fear of change.


Fourth, Hammond premises that the process of "turning within" whether TM, any meditation, prayer, any means that enable us to better know and understand our own minds -- both its limits and more limitless aspects, is the most efficient and perhaps singular antidote to fear. And he suggests that there are many effective methods to turn within (currently available and yet to be derived) devoid of traditional, cultural and religious trappings. (And that within traditional cultures and religions there are existing practices, such as prayer, which can (though not always) turn the mind within and quiet the chaos of more manifest chatter and "noise". Consequently, a solution path for reducing fear of change-- both among the irrational adherents to outdated cultural/religious practices and dogma as a, as well as fear by more the more rational -- who have (possibly unacknowledged) fear of the former -- the uncertainty and chaos of the irrational mob, may be deriving and applying, making more universally available and helping to support adaptation of such, cultural and dogma free methods of turning within.


(1) I was surprised to read Hammond's bio -- 25 years as successful corporate lawyer working on global mergers and acquisitions -- clearly an odd career culmination for the alleged soul of Brighu, Jacob, one of Jesus' apostles, Plato, Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain. Yet the career, and his nominal clarity as a speaker distinguishes him from babbling street person babbling and run-of-the-mill new-age crazy.

[TurquoiseBee [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

The only thing I can imagine sadder than George Hammond's stories being untrue is that they are actually true.

If his tale about all these supposedly Bestest Spiritual Types Ever making all these plans and conducting all these experiments to improve humanity's lot *were* true, then they are by far the biggest failures in human history. *Nothing* they attempted worked. What a bunch of fuckups.
From: salyavin808 <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 8, 2014 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

  ---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

"I thought all those holy guys were way off the mark in its importanceas something they needed to tell us. I would have preferred a cure forcancer!"
Having been involved in new age stuff for a good many years, I must say this is one of the most telling points.

All the so-called ascended masters, angels and archangels and masters who are no longer in a body are real big on all sorts of esoteric bullshit, but real short on real time practical knowledge and common sense help for those of us here on earth. That's because its all bullshit except for some flowery words to make people feel good and usually to get them to give up their money or sex.
Did anyone ever ask the "ascended" where their energy came from? Unless they are growing food and eating it they are going to run out of steam very quickly without an exchange of energy in metabolism but how would a "light being" eat anyway?
It's answers like that I'd like to hear but most people prolly too overawed to be talking to The Big Cheese to wonder about the simple physics of it, 
Another major question for George (or anyone in the know) would be this re-incarnation contradiction: If we do re-incarnate, how come all these holy dudes were hanging out somewhere else instead of being reborn? It's all too convenient - not that I ever believed it - but you can't have both rebirth and an afterlife can you?
It's all just too easy to shoot down. From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 3:21 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else


Nice talking points on George, I'm glad you took the time to post them. As food for thought it was certainly a success. I liked your comparison with literature and if he had presented it as a dramatic one man show he had created, I would feel differently about the whole thing. He is a creative guy and has a sense of drama. It would have impressed me more if that is how it had been presented.

But it wasn't. (BTW none of this is presented as a counter to anything you said. I am using your enjoyable post as a writing prompt without acknowledging all the points you made.)
It was presented as being an actual discussion with the not so dead Maharishi on the other side. That claim needed an epistemological ramp for the rest of us and we never got one. It was sort of breezily addressed in the beginning that we could believe whatever we wanted. He also made the case that the quality of the information itself should be its own verification. I didn't hear anything that would require resorting to a supernatural source for these ideas and images. He seem perfectly capable on his own having written numerous books containing many of the ideas presented as coming from Maharishi.

I could tell from talking with people at the event that George's business success was an influencing factor on people taking him seriously. I don't know how I feel about that. In general I am wary of even doctors writing diet books, since they receive so little nutrition training. I think people tend to get more credit than is deserved for being successful in one field and then trying to transfer the feeling of credibility to another unrelated area. It is one of our cognitive gaps probably created out of our social hierarchy aware primate nature. Our brains were really not built to deal with the kind of distinctions we are faced with today. Man has lots of bananas so must be alpha!

The case for why we should take what he said seriously was for him to make. I find it curious that none of the smarty pants holy traditions dudes could anticipate that such an argument was missing but was deserved. It sort of put us in the position of unwarranted faith in a guy I didn't even know. That doesn't sound like respectful epistemological awareness to me.

I told George that although I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, I could think of all sorts of ways to present this in a way that would be viewed with more credibility from the movement or from reasonable people. He didn't address my point but restated some of the history of presenting it to Hagelin.  I told him that I thought it was Maharishi's responsibility to present it in a way the people he personally chose to run his movement could accept. By the time he gave it to George, it was too late. George thought the knowledge stood on its own as its proof. I told him that I thought any of us could have created these ideas, they did not require supernatural agency. Then we had to go.

On one hand we have the possibility that it was all as George presented, a discussion with dead people about how we should view life. On the other we have all the vagaries of the human mind with its fantastic generative abilities within and outside our consciousness.

Coming back to your example of literature, I know which one rings truest to me.

I think he made way too much of a big deal aboutfear. Fear is my friend when I need it, and not a dominate emotion thatrules my life otherwise. I don't have any complaints for how fear helpsme keep my eye on the ball of survival and don't need any more or anyless. I thought all those holy guys were way off the mark in its importance as something they needed to tell us. I would have preferred a cure for cancer!

Thanks again for continuing the discussion. I find many levels of fascination concerning how people view this event. Any other perspectives you want to share would be welcome.


  



---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :




Possibly there is more to it. Or not. 
I watched the Hammond video last night.  Its easy to dismiss him and  cast him off as delusional(1). Yet art and literature are not real either, even still, they may open us up to new ways of viewing the world, and induce new ideas and internal hypotheses  -- even if the artist was bat-assed crazy.  My take away is that while his story is rather far-fetched, and he may be delusional, some useful points may have emerged, both directly and from subsequent pondering.  
One Hammond theme is that religious founders/leaders' messages and strategies were experimental attempts focused on incrementally improving a select set of problems for specific  time, place and group of people, not universal truths applicable for all ages, problems and peoples -- and as such these targeted strategies had some unintended and unexpected negative consequences that continue through to today.  And that attempts to apply such strategies to today's world are major steps backwards, not forward.  He suggests righteous anger as an example of a method used in a particular era of the old testament -- focussed on combatting a perceived major problem of lethargy and laziness of a particular time and place.  Not stated as such, increasing rajas to reduce tomas might be the yogic parallel. When tomas is reduced, the method is no longer applicable. But these focussed methods such as righteous anger endured past their usefulness, took on a life of their own, and create larger problems than the original ones intended to be solved.    
Second, he dismisses the notion that  these strategies were created by an all-knowing all powerful deity. Rather he suggests that they were brainstormed and thought out by by good intentioned, smart, yet limited individuals. Jehovah is presented as a man -- who was inaccurately deified by later "faithful" generations and centuries. (And his premise that Jehovah and Allah are the same, in his model, suggests the violence-prone parallels of some sects of all of the Abrahamic religions.)

Third, it was suggested that fear is the greatest block to social, individual and spiritual progress. My take is that irrational arguments and actions, particularly when networked across many nodes in a mob mentality situation, are driven by, are a response to, inner fear, particularly fear of change. For example, rapid change in culture adaptation of new technology, etc may cause many to cling to outdated traditions, self-help / religious models as antidotes to inner fear of change. Some good examples are the ones cited in your post on religious fundamentalism.
And that while lashing out at the irrational is reasonable and rational, a personal trait -- and one which I observe many seem to share, the impetus towards such may be rooted in fear of irrational mindsets and groups, fear of loss when such gets out of hand, spirals out of control, the world run amuck by the irrational mob (too many examples to list). Ultimately decomposed also to a fear of change.  
Fourth, Hammond premises that the process of "turning within" whether TM, any meditation, prayer, any means that enable us to better know and understand our own minds -- both its limits and more limitless aspects, is the most efficient and perhaps singular antidote to fear. And he suggests that there are many effective methods to turn within (currently available and yet to be derived) devoid of traditional, cultural and religious trappings. (And that within traditional cultures and religions there are existing practices, such as prayer, which can (though not always) turn the mind within and quiet the chaos of more manifest chatter and "noise". Consequently, a solution path for reducing fear of change-- both among the irrational adherents to outdated cultural/religious practices and dogma as a, as well as fear by more the more rational -- who have (possibly unacknowledged) fear of the former -- the uncertainty and chaos of the irrational mob, may be deriving and applying, making more universally available and helping to support adaptation of such, cultural and dogma free methods of turning within. 
(1) I was surprised to read Hammond's bio -- 25 years as successful corporate lawyer working on global mergers and acquisitions -- clearly an odd career culmination for the alleged soul of Brighu, Jacob, one of Jesus' apostles, Plato, Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain.  Yet the career, and his nominal clarity as a speaker  distinguishes him from babbling street person babbling and run-of-the-mill new-age crazy.  

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['Richard J. Williams' [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

*/The only thing I can imagine sadder than George Hammond's stories
being untrue is that they are actually true.
/*
*/
/*
*/If his tale about all these supposedly Bestest Spiritual Types Ever
making all these plans and conducting all these experiments to improve
humanity's lot *were* true, then they are by far the biggest failures
in human history. *Nothing* they attempted worked. What a bunch of
fuckups./*

Good points, Barry. So what exactly would be the purpose of Rama
demonstrating the siddhis? To impress the people in order to get more
money for stage shows or to make people think he was the Last
Incarnation of the God Vishnu?

/"Over the years, I saw him levitate, as in sitting in lotus and just
lifting up off the chair and hovering there in midair for minutes at a
time, sometimes telling a joke the whole time. Or in the desert, he'd
just step up off the sand and onto a "staircase" that wasn't there, and
just climb up and down it for a while, several feet above the ground."/
- TurquoiseB

[Bhairitu [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

I watched some of Hammond's video broken up into chapters and read the
excellent summary that MJ's friend provided.

I agree with some of the things he said because that is the way sadhana
is often taught outside of the TM world. However most Indian pundits
including "Hindu" priests will tell you that "the gods" are metaphors
for forces of nature. Shakti and Shiva are like positive and negative
vibrating to create our phenomenal universe. It was felt that the
impersonal was too complicated for simple village folks to understand so
they personified those energies as "gods" to explain it. And some
people take it literally.

I've mentioned innumerable times on FFL that MMY taught teachers to use
beej mantras (beej is the way bija is pronounced) because they required
nothing special to use. It's like the puja was window dressing though I
would think it would charge up shakti a bit but maybe not with all teachers.

Post by ***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Possibly there is more to it. Or not.
I watched the Hammond video last night. Its easy to dismiss him and
cast him off as delusional(1). Yet art and literature are not real
either, even still, they may open us up to new ways of viewing the
world, and induce new ideas and internal hypotheses -- even if the
artist was bat-assed crazy. My take away is that while his story is
rather far-fetched, and he may be delusional, some useful points may
have emerged, both directly and from subsequent pondering.
One Hammond theme is that religious founders/leaders' messages and
strategies were experimental attempts focused on incrementally
improving a select set of problems for specific time, place and group
of people, not universal truths applicable for all ages, problems and
peoples -- and as such these targeted strategies had some unintended
and unexpected negative consequences that continue through to today.
And that attempts to apply such strategies to today's world are major
steps backwards, not forward. He suggests righteous anger as an
example of a method used in a particular era of the old testament --
focussed on combatting a perceived major problem of lethargy and
laziness of a particular time and place. Not stated as such,
increasing rajas to reduce tomas might be the yogic parallel. When
tomas is reduced, the method is no longer applicable. But these
focussed methods such as righteous anger endured past their
usefulness, took on a life of their own, and create larger problems
than the original ones intended to be solved.
Second, he dismisses the notion that these strategies were created by
an all-knowing all powerful deity. Rather he suggests that they were
brainstormed and thought out by by good intentioned, smart, yet
limited individuals. Jehovah is presented as a man -- who was
inaccurately deified by later "faithful" generations and centuries.
(And his premise that Jehovah and Allah are the same, in his model,
suggests the violence-prone parallels of some sects of all of the
Abrahamic religions.)
Third, it was suggested that fear is the greatest block to social,
individual and spiritual progress. My take is that irrational
arguments and actions, particularly when networked across many nodes
in a mob mentality situation, are driven by, are a response to, inner
fear, particularly fear of change. For example, rapid change in
culture adaptation of new technology, etc may cause many to cling to
outdated traditions, self-help / religious models as antidotes to
inner fear of change. Some good examples are the ones cited in your
post on religious fundamentalism.
And that while lashing out at the irrational is reasonable and
rational, a personal trait -- and one which I observe many seem to
share, the impetus towards such may be rooted in fear of irrational
mindsets and groups, fear of loss when such gets out of hand, spirals
out of control, the world run amuck by the irrational mob (too many
examples to list). Ultimately decomposed also to a fear of change.
Fourth, Hammond premises that the process of "turning within" whether
TM, any meditation, prayer, any means that enable us to better know
and understand our own minds -- both its limits and more limitless
aspects, is the most efficient and perhaps singular antidote to fear.
And he suggests that there are many effective methods to turn within
(currently available and yet to be derived) devoid of traditional,
cultural and religious trappings. (And that within traditional
cultures and religions there are existing practices, such as prayer,
which can (though not always) turn the mind within and quiet the chaos
of more manifest chatter and "noise". Consequently, a solution path
for reducing fear of change-- both among the irrational adherents to
outdated cultural/religious practices and dogma as a, as well as fear
by more the more rational -- who have (possibly unacknowledged) fear
of the former -- the uncertainty and chaos of the irrational mob, may
be deriving and applying, making more universally available and
helping to support adaptation of such, cultural and dogma free methods
of turning within.
(1) I was surprised to read Hammond's bio -- 25 years as successful
corporate lawyer working on global mergers and acquisitions -- clearly
an odd career culmination for the alleged soul of Brighu, Jacob, one
of Jesus' apostles, Plato, Johnathan Swift and Mark Twain. Yet the
career, and his nominal clarity as a speaker distinguishes him from
babbling street person babbling and run-of-the-mill new-age crazy.

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Empty,

Christianity is the continuation of the Old Testament. It has taken the concepts from the prophets and developed them into the current thinking that Christians have.


Some of the ideas in the OT were appropriate for the time it was written. At that time, it was considered to be justifiable to defend one's own tribe and people. Undoubtedly, the writings in the OT were influenced by the shortsighted thinking of the Hebrews at that time.


Christianity is continually evolving to adopt the most evolved ideas that reflect the state of consciousness of its congregation. It is now obvious that genocide is not the way to develop the consciousness of its people.


In fact, all religions in the world today are realizing that fundamentalism and radicalism of their individual dogmas are not contributing to peace. Fundamentalism is only contributing to destruction which we're seeing in Iraq and Syria.


The next step in the development of human beings is to understand that consciousness is common to all humans. It is the link that binds everyone to the Unified Field, which is the objective of all religions. I am sure there is a way to communicate this idea in a way that conforms with the language and dogmas of all religions.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :



Christians like to tell the rest of us that their religion teaches peace, love and understanding. They also are fond of saying that the Bible is the greatest book ever written. Well, folks, they can't have it both ways. The fact is that the Bible promotes genocide, the systematic destruction of entire populations of human beings. If that's Christian compassion, then I'm the Pope.


Don't believe that the Bible teaches genocide? Check out the following verses, just two of the many from the Bible that suggest that God himself thinks that genocide is a wonderful idea:


Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)
Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14



You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.
Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9


So this is God's love: if he looks favorably upon you, he'll help you go out and slaughter ten thousand people just because they belong to another ethic group and are already living on the land you want for yourself. Furthermore, the Bible says that he wants you to go out and commit cultural genocide, destroying the religious buildings and holy objects of rival religions. So come on, Christians! Hop to it! Surely you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, don't you? I'll bet you can find some non-Christian temple and start your pillage today!


If you think I'm being sarcastic, or am just making an academic point about a couple of long-forgotten verses that have no connection to the way that Christianity is practiced today, you're wrong. These biblical verses, and others like them, have been used by Christians for thousands of years to justify hundreds, if not thousands, of horrific acts of genocide. Just in the last couple of years, the Christian Yugoslav government led by the popular leader Slobodan Milosevic slaughtered huge numbers of ethnic Albanian Muslims, citing the Bible's genocidal language as justification.


Now, some peaceable apologetic Christians will argue that Christians like Milosevic have merely misunderstood the teachings of the Bible. They'll claim that God required his followers to commit genocidal atrocities during the time of the Old Testament but that Jesus brought a New Testament which instead instructs people to turn the other cheek.


First of all, Christian history does not bear this New Testament idea out. Christian armies never turned the other cheek when they slaughtered their enemies in the name of God. Church leaders supported these acts and often led the clamor for holy wars.


Secondly, the New Testament argument destroys the very foundation that Christianity is built upon. If God is really all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, then he can't possibly have meant to tell his followers to go out and engage in acts of ethnic cleansing and then have changed his mind a thousand years or so later. If God really knows all and can do whatever he wants, why couldn't he have brought Jesus and the New Testament down earlier and saved the Earth a whole lot of bloodshed? Waiting around to teach forgiveness after you've been teaching human slaughter doesn't sound very all-loving to me. Whichever tack you take, the argument that a New Testament separates modern Christianity from the atrocities of the Old Testament is a theologically unsound excuse.


That also goes for the whole rigamarole that Christians go through to give themselves the title of God's new Chosen People. This old Christian canard argues that God used to call the Jews his Chosen People, but the Jews weren't worthy, so since the arrival of Jesus, the Chosen People are the Christians. Honestly, I don't see what difference it makes who the Chosen People are -- I don't think that they ought to have the right to go around and kill people just because they aren't Chosen. It doesn't matter whether genocide takes place on the basis of ethnicity or religion. It's still genocide.
Besides, all the Christian protestations about being followers of the New Testaments and not the Old Testament are shown to be the hollow excuses they are by the continued use of the Old Testament by practically every Christian church on the face of the Earth. If Christianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the Old Testament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christian priests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old Testament Verses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandments posted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize their little boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?


http://irregulartimes.com/index.htmlChristians accuse New Age practitioners of taking a buffet approach to religion: just taking whatever teachings from whatever traditions they like and then ignoring the ones they don't like. Pardon me, but I don't see how the Christians are any different. If you're a real, consistent Christian, you ought to join with other Christians to form a holy army to massacre as many non-Christians as you can, starting today.

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Christians assert that their jesus-god is the same god as yhvh. However they prefer to ignore the Book of Joshua and the genocide of Canaanites by yhwh and his henchmen.

That very “god” of the Jews, Christian and Muslims is the one who offers the lands and cities of Canaan for targeted appropriation and all of its peoples for annihilation. The inhabitants, along with their lands, livestock and chattels are marked for destruction and for vicious slaughter at the hands of the Jews. All of the men, women, children and babies were either pierced or decapitated by swords. You gotta love this frenzied offering of the blood of babies to their thirsty demon .

These are the “sacred histories” of a tribal demon – not a god. Muhammad claimed that he served the same “god” and thus did the same 
 killing non-believers at will. ISIS is simply following the example of Muhammad, Moses and Joshua and is putting the bullet and long-knife to anyone opposing them or simply not believing.

Forget asserting that this demon is a “god”. The “god” concept was grafted upon the demon yhvh through contact with Persian Zoroastrianism and Hellenic Platonism.

The world is already full of homicidal maniacs. We don’t need no stinkun genocidal demons to worship too.

[[e-mail]]

blah blah blah thats a bunch of meaningless twaddle. you are right at home here with all posters who are stuck in the past only rather than decades dead past yours is thousands of years old, the ongoing genocides caused by Buddhists in Bhutan , Burma and Sri Lanka are something very real and painful to too many people right now.

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Oh gosh. Yer so right. Blah blah blah ...

Your genocidal maniacs are so much better than mine.
You should keep 'em close and relish them. Why everyone
needs a few to spice up their current history - just so they can
maintain their rage.

Damn Buddhist psychopaths. Didn't Gautama say:

"O Monks - maintain a good samâdhi to find out all the defiled ones. Then you can hang them from the trees as you go out and beg for your daily meal. Be vigilant - they are everywhere."

Now that's a past you can be proud of all day long.

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Empty,

Times have changed. It is already clear that evolved human beings should not be acting as fundamentalists who demand that their dogmas must be obeyed or be annihilated.





---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

Christians assert that their jesus-god is the same god as yhvh. However they prefer to ignore the Book of Joshua and the genocide of Canaanites by yhwh and his henchmen.

That very “god” of the Jews, Christian and Muslims is the one who offers the lands and cities of Canaan for targeted appropriation and all of its peoples for annihilation. The inhabitants, along with their lands, livestock and chattels are marked for destruction and for vicious slaughter at the hands of the Jews. All of the men, women, children and babies were either pierced or decapitated by swords. You gotta love this frenzied offering of the blood of babies to their thirsty demon .

These are the “sacred histories” of a tribal demon – not a god. Muhammad claimed that he served the same “god” and thus did the same 
 killing non-believers at will. ISIS is simply following the example of Muhammad, Moses and Joshua and is putting the bullet and long-knife to anyone opposing them or simply not believing.

Forget asserting that this demon is a “god”. The “god” concept was grafted upon the demon yhvh through contact with Persian Zoroastrianism and Hellenic Platonism.

The world is already full of homicidal maniacs. We don’t need no stinkun genocidal demons to worship too.

['Richard J. Williams' [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Christians assert that their jesus-god is the same god as //yhvh.
However they prefer to ignore the Book of Joshua and the genocide of
Canaanites by yhwh and his henchmen.

/You sound kind of confused. Maybe you don't to realize that the
Israelites were the Canaanites - they was no battle at Jericho. So,
you're thinking that God gave to the Arabs the land of Canaan, but the
Canaanites, the original inhabitants, were ethnically cleansed by the
Arabs, and that the Canaanites continue to encroach on the Arab's lands?
This doesn't even make any sense.

The Canaanites were, if anyone, the original inhabitants of Canaan, not
the Philistines who came much later. But it is a fact that the Arabs
came after the Philistines, who were assimilated into the Canaanite
society. So, if anyone is the 'ethnic cleanser' it would be the Arabs
who claim their God gave them the land of Canaan.

But it seems to me that the Canaanites were the owners of the land in
the first place. So, I'm thinking that the 'Palestinians' are either
Jordanians or Egyptians - they are not related to the Philistines at all
- they should give all the land back to the Canaanites and they should
all go back home to Jordan or to Egypt, where they came from and leave
the Jews alone./

That very “god” of the Jews, Christian and Muslims is the one who
offers the lands and cities of Canaan for targeted appropriation and
all of its peoples for annihilation. The inhabitants, along with their
lands, livestock and chattels are marked for destruction and for
vicious slaughter at the hands of the Jews. All of the men, women,
children and babies were either pierced or decapitated by swords. You
gotta love this frenzied offering of the blood of babies to their
thirsty demon//.

[Michael Jackson [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

The main thing about the Christian Bible is why God would see fit to punish severely anyone who would have the temerity to piss against a wall.

- 1 Samuel 25:22 
- So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.



- 1 Samuel 25:34 
- For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.



- 1 Kings 14:10 
- Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.



- 1 Kings 16:11 
- And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends.



- 1 Kings 21:21 
- Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,



- 2 Kings 9:8 
- For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel:

From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 2:45 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

  Empty,
Christianity is the continuation of the Old Testament.  It has taken the concepts from the prophets and developed them into the current thinking that Christians have.
Some of the ideas in the OT were appropriate for the time it was written.  At that time, it was considered to be justifiable to defend one's own tribe and people.  Undoubtedly, the writings in the OT were influenced by the shortsighted thinking of the Hebrews at that time.
Christianity is continually evolving to adopt the most evolved ideas that reflect the state of consciousness of its congregation.  It is now obvious that genocide is not the way to develop the consciousness of its people.
In fact, all religions in the world today are realizing that fundamentalism and radicalism of their individual dogmas are not contributing to peace.  Fundamentalism is only contributing to destruction which we're seeing in Iraq and Syria.
The next step in the development of human beings is to understand that consciousness is common to all humans.  It is the link that binds everyone to the Unified Field, which is the objective of all religions.  I am sure there is a way to communicate this idea in a way that conforms with the language and dogmas of all religions.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :


Christians like to tell the rest of us that their religion teaches peace, love and understanding. They also are fond of saying that the Bible is the greatest book ever written. Well, folks, they can't have it both ways. The fact is that the Bible promotes genocide, the systematic destruction of entire populations of human beings. If that's Christian compassion, then I'm the Pope.
Don't believe that the Bible teaches genocide? Check out the following verses, just two of the many from the Bible that suggest that God himself thinks that genocide is a wonderful idea:
Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9
So this is God's love: if he looks favorably upon you, he'll help you go out and slaughter ten thousand people just because they belong to another ethic group and are already living on the land you want for yourself. Furthermore, the Bible says that he wants you to go out and commit cultural genocide, destroying the religious buildings and holy objects of rival religions. So come on, Christians! Hop to it! Surely you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, don't you? I'll bet you can find some non-Christian temple and start your pillage today!
If you think I'm being sarcastic, or am just making an academic point about a couple of long-forgotten verses that have no connection to the way that Christianity is practiced today, you're wrong. These biblical verses, and others like them, have been used by Christians for thousands of years to justify hundreds, if not thousands, of horrific acts of genocide. Just in the last couple of years, the Christian Yugoslav government led by the popular leader Slobodan Milosevic slaughtered huge numbers of ethnic Albanian Muslims, citing the Bible's genocidal language as justification.
Now, some peaceable apologetic Christians will argue that Christians like Milosevic have merely misunderstood the teachings of the Bible. They'll claim that God required his followers to commit genocidal atrocities during the time of the Old Testament but that Jesus brought a New Testament which instead instructs people to turn the other cheek.
First of all, Christian history does not bear this New Testament idea out. Christian armies never turned the other cheek when they slaughtered their enemies in the name of God. Church leaders supported these acts and often led the clamor for holy wars.
Secondly, the New Testament argument destroys the very foundation that Christianity is built upon. If God is really all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, then he can't possibly have meant to tell his followers to go out and engage in acts of ethnic cleansing and then have changed his mind a thousand years or so later. If God really knows all and can do whatever he wants, why couldn't he have brought Jesus and the New Testament down earlier and saved the Earth a whole lot of bloodshed? Waiting around to teach forgiveness after you've been teaching human slaughter doesn't sound very all-loving to me. Whichever tack you take, the argument that a New Testament separates modern Christianity from the atrocities of the Old Testament is a theologically unsound excuse.
That also goes for the whole rigamarole that Christians go through to give themselves the title of God's new Chosen People. This old Christian canard argues that God used to call the Jews his Chosen People, but the Jews weren't worthy, so since the arrival of Jesus, the Chosen People are the Christians. Honestly, I don't see what difference it makes who the Chosen People are -- I don't think that they ought to have the right to go around and kill people just because they aren't Chosen. It doesn't matter whether genocide takes place on the basis of ethnicity or religion. It's still genocide.Besides, all the Christian protestations about being followers of the New Testaments and not the Old Testament are shown to be the hollow excuses they are by the continued use of the Old Testament by practically every Christian church on the face of the Earth. If Christianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the Old Testament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christian priests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old Testament Verses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandments posted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize their little boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?
Christians accuse New Age practitioners of taking a buffet approach to religion: just taking whatever teachings from whatever traditions they like and then ignoring the ones they don't like. Pardon me, but I don't see how the Christians are any different. If you're a real, consistent Christian, you ought to join with other Christians to form a holy army to massacre as many non-Christians as you can, starting today.


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[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

Don't let Aaron Sorkin see that.

[[e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

MJ,

You have to read the citations in context with the narrative. Urinating on the wall can be interpreted as a sign of disrespect or may violate some Jewish laws regarding cleanliness. My translation of this passage shows that it was David who said this in 1 Samuel. He was referencing the fact that his men have not harmed any of Nabal's property. Thus, he was taking responsibility for any harm or disrespect, including any of his men who may piss on the wall owned by Nabal.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

The main thing about the Christian Bible is why God would see fit to punish severely anyone who would have the temerity to piss against a wall.

1 Samuel 25:22 http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Samuel-25-22/ So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

1 Samuel 25:34 http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Samuel-25-34/ For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

1 Kings 14:10 http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Kings-14-10/ Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.

1 Kings 16:11 http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Kings-16-11/ And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends.

1 Kings 21:21 http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Kings-21-21/ Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,

2 Kings 9:8 http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Kings-9-8/ For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel:

From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 2:45 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else


Empty,


Christianity is the continuation of the Old Testament. It has taken the concepts from the prophets and developed them into the current thinking that Christians have.


Some of the ideas in the OT were appropriate for the time it was written. At that time, it was considered to be justifiable to defend one's own tribe and people. Undoubtedly, the writings in the OT were influenced by the shortsighted thinking of the Hebrews at that time.


Christianity is continually evolving to adopt the most evolved ideas that reflect the state of consciousness of its congregation. It is now obvious that genocide is not the way to develop the consciousness of its people.


In fact, all religions in the world today are realizing that fundamentalism and radicalism of their individual dogmas are not contributing to peace. Fundamentalism is only contributing to destruction which we're seeing in Iraq and Syria.


The next step in the development of human beings is to understand that consciousness is common to all humans. It is the link that binds everyone to the Unified Field, which is the objective of all religions. I am sure there is a way to communicate this idea in a way that conforms with the language and dogmas of all religions.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :



Christians like to tell the rest of us that their religion teaches peace, love and understanding. They also are fond of saying that the Bible is the greatest book ever written. Well, folks, they can't have it both ways. The fact is that the Bible promotes genocide, the systematic destruction of entire populations of human beings. If that's Christian compassion, then I'm the Pope.


Don't believe that the Bible teaches genocide? Check out the following verses, just two of the many from the Bible that suggest that God himself thinks that genocide is a wonderful idea:


Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)
Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14



You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.
Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9


So this is God's love: if he looks favorably upon you, he'll help you go out and slaughter ten thousand people just because they belong to another ethic group and are already living on the land you want for yourself. Furthermore, the Bible says that he wants you to go out and commit cultural genocide, destroying the religious buildings and holy objects of rival religions. So come on, Christians! Hop to it! Surely you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, don't you? I'll bet you can find some non-Christian temple and start your pillage today!


If you think I'm being sarcastic, or am just making an academic point about a couple of long-forgotten verses that have no connection to the way that Christianity is practiced today, you're wrong. These biblical verses, and others like them, have been used by Christians for thousands of years to justify hundreds, if not thousands, of horrific acts of genocide. Just in the last couple of years, the Christian Yugoslav government led by the popular leader Slobodan Milosevic slaughtered huge numbers of ethnic Albanian Muslims, citing the Bible's genocidal language as justification.


Now, some peaceable apologetic Christians will argue that Christians like Milosevic have merely misunderstood the teachings of the Bible. They'll claim that God required his followers to commit genocidal atrocities during the time of the Old Testament but that Jesus brought a New Testament which instead instructs people to turn the other cheek.


First of all, Christian history does not bear this New Testament idea out. Christian armies never turned the other cheek when they slaughtered their enemies in the name of God. Church leaders supported these acts and often led the clamor for holy wars.


Secondly, the New Testament argument destroys the very foundation that Christianity is built upon. If God is really all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, then he can't possibly have meant to tell his followers to go out and engage in acts of ethnic cleansing and then have changed his mind a thousand years or so later. If God really knows all and can do whatever he wants, why couldn't he have brought Jesus and the New Testament down earlier and saved the Earth a whole lot of bloodshed? Waiting around to teach forgiveness after you've been teaching human slaughter doesn't sound very all-loving to me. Whichever tack you take, the argument that a New Testament separates modern Christianity from the atrocities of the Old Testament is a theologically unsound excuse.


That also goes for the whole rigamarole that Christians go through to give themselves the title of God's new Chosen People. This old Christian canard argues that God used to call the Jews his Chosen People, but the Jews weren't worthy, so since the arrival of Jesus, the Chosen People are the Christians. Honestly, I don't see what difference it makes who the Chosen People are -- I don't think that they ought to have the right to go around and kill people just because they aren't Chosen. It doesn't matter whether genocide takes place on the basis of ethnicity or religion. It's still genocide.
Besides, all the Christian protestations about being followers of the New Testaments and not the Old Testament are shown to be the hollow excuses they are by the continued use of the Old Testament by practically every Christian church on the face of the Earth. If Christianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the Old Testament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christian priests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old Testament Verses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandments posted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize their little boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?


http://irregulartimes.com/index.htmlChristians accuse New Age practitioners of taking a buffet approach to religion: just taking whatever teachings from whatever traditions they like and then ignoring the ones they don't like. Pardon me, but I don't see how the Christians are any different. If you're a real, consistent Christian, you ought to join with other Christians to form a holy army to massacre as many non-Christians as you can, starting today.

[Michael Jackson [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

I can't imagine what you are like in real life. You are hard to figure out - are you serious in your posts or are you using subtle humor?

From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

  MJ,
You have to read the citations in context with the narrative.   Urinating on the wall can be interpreted as a sign of disrespect or may violate some Jewish laws regarding cleanliness.   My translation of this passage shows that it was David who said this in 1 Samuel.  He was referencing the fact that his men have not harmed any of Nabal's property.  Thus, he was taking responsibility for any harm or disrespect, including any of his men who may piss on the wall owned by Nabal.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

The main thing about the Christian Bible is why God would see fit to punish severely anyone who would have the temerity to piss against a wall.

- 1 Samuel 25:22 
- So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.



- 1 Samuel 25:34 
- For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, whichhath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and cometo meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morninglight any that pisseth against the wall.



- 1 Kings 14:10 
- Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, andhim that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnantof the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be allgone.



- 1 Kings 16:11 
- And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends.



- 1 Kings 21:21 
- Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,



- 2 Kings 9:8 
- For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel:

From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 2:45 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

 Empty,
Christianity is the continuation of the Old Testament.  It has taken the concepts from the prophets and developed them into the current thinking that Christians have.
Some of the ideas in the OT were appropriate for the time it was written.  At that time, it was considered to be justifiable to defend one's own tribe and people.  Undoubtedly, the writings in the OT were influenced by the shortsighted thinking of the Hebrews at that time.
Christianity is continually evolving to adopt the most evolved ideas that reflect the state of consciousness of its congregation.  It is now obvious that genocide is not the way to develop the consciousness of its people.
In fact, all religions in the world today are realizing that fundamentalism and radicalism of their individual dogmas are not contributing to peace.  Fundamentalism is only contributing to destruction which we're seeing in Iraq and Syria.
The next step in the development of human beings is to understand that consciousness is common to all humans.  It is the link that binds everyone to the Unified Field, which is the objective of all religions.  I am sure there is a way to communicate this idea in a way that conforms with the language and dogmas of all religions.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :


Christians like to tell the rest of us that their religion teachespeace, love and understanding. They also are fond of saying that theBible is the greatest book ever written. Well, folks, they can't haveit both ways. The fact is that the Bible promotes genocide, thesystematic destruction of entire populations of human beings. If that'sChristian compassion, then I'm the Pope.
Don't believe that the Bible teaches genocide? Check out thefollowing verses, just two of the many from the Bible that suggest thatGod himself thinks that genocide is a wonderful idea:
Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving outfrom before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and thePerizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lestyou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you aregoing, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy theiraltars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images(For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name isJealous, is a jealous God.)Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the swordbefore you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of youshall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the swordbefore you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful,multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the oldharvest, and clear out the old because of the new.Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9
So this is God's love: if he looks favorably upon you, he'll help yougo out and slaughter ten thousand people just because they belong toanother ethic group and are already living on the land you want foryourself. Furthermore, the Bible says that he wants you to go out andcommit cultural genocide, destroying the religious buildings and holyobjects of rival religions. So come on, Christians! Hop to it! Surelyyou believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, don't you?I'll bet you can find some non-Christian temple and start your pillagetoday!
If you think I'm being sarcastic, or am just making an academic pointabout a couple of long-forgotten verses that have no connection to theway that Christianity is practiced today, you're wrong. These biblicalverses, and others like them, have been used by Christians for thousandsof years to justify hundreds, if not thousands, of horrific acts ofgenocide. Just in the last couple of years, the Christian Yugoslavgovernment led by the popular leader Slobodan Milosevic slaughtered hugenumbers of ethnic Albanian Muslims, citing the Bible's genocidallanguage as justification.
Now, some peaceable apologetic Christians will argue that Christianslike Milosevic have merely misunderstood the teachings of the Bible.They'll claim that God required his followers to commit genocidalatrocities during the time of the Old Testament but that Jesus brought aNew Testament which instead instructs people to turn the other cheek.
First of all, Christian history does not bear this New Testament ideaout. Christian armies never turned the other cheek when theyslaughtered their enemies in the name of God. Church leaders supportedthese acts and often led the clamor for holy wars.
Secondly, the New Testament argument destroys the very foundationthat Christianity is built upon. If God is really all-powerful andall-knowing and all-loving, then he can't possibly have meant to tellhis followers to go out and engage in acts of ethnic cleansing and thenhave changed his mind a thousand years or so later. If God really knowsall and can do whatever he wants, why couldn't he have brought Jesusand the New Testament down earlier and saved the Earth a whole lot ofbloodshed? Waiting around to teach forgiveness after you've beenteaching human slaughter doesn't sound very all-loving to me. Whichevertack you take, the argument that a New Testament separates modernChristianity from the atrocities of the Old Testament is a theologicallyunsound excuse.
That also goes for the whole rigamarole that Christians go through togive themselves the title of God's new Chosen People. This oldChristian canard argues that God used to call the Jews his ChosenPeople, but the Jews weren't worthy, so since the arrival of Jesus, theChosen People are the Christians. Honestly, I don't see what differenceit makes who the Chosen People are -- I don't think that they ought tohave the right to go around and kill people just because they aren'tChosen. It doesn't matter whether genocide takes place on the basis ofethnicity or religion. It's still genocide.Besides, all the Christian protestations about being followers of theNew Testaments and not the Old Testament are shown to be the hollowexcuses they are by the continued use of the Old Testament bypractically every Christian church on the face of the Earth. IfChristianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the OldTestament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christianpriests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old TestamentVerses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandmentsposted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize theirlittle boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?
Christiansaccuse New Age practitioners of taking a buffet approach to religion:just taking whatever teachings from whatever traditions they like andthen ignoring the ones they don't like. Pardon me, but I don't see howthe Christians are any different. If you're a real, consistentChristian, you ought to join with other Christians to form a holy armyto massacre as many non-Christians as you can, starting today.




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[Michael Jackson [e-mail] [FairfieldLife]]

I can't imagine what you are like in real life. You are hard to figure out - are you serious in your posts or are you using subtle humor?

From: "***@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

  MJ,
You have to read the citations in context with the narrative.   Urinating on the wall can be interpreted as a sign of disrespect or may violate some Jewish laws regarding cleanliness.   My translation of this passage shows that it was David who said this in 1 Samuel.  He was referencing the fact that his men have not harmed any of Nabal's property.  Thus, he was taking responsibility for any harm or disrespect, including any of his men who may piss on the wall owned by Nabal.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

The main thing about the Christian Bible is why God would see fit to punish severely anyone who would have the temerity to piss against a wall.

- 1 Samuel 25:22 
- So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.



- 1 Samuel 25:34 
- For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, whichhath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and cometo meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morninglight any that pisseth against the wall.



- 1 Kings 14:10 
- Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, andhim that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnantof the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be allgone.



- 1 Kings 16:11 
- And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends.



- 1 Kings 21:21 
- Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,



- 2 Kings 9:8 
- For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel:

From: "***@... [FairfieldLife]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2014 2:45 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Christian answer to ISIS and much else

 Empty,
Christianity is the continuation of the Old Testament.  It has taken the concepts from the prophets and developed them into the current thinking that Christians have.
Some of the ideas in the OT were appropriate for the time it was written.  At that time, it was considered to be justifiable to defend one's own tribe and people.  Undoubtedly, the writings in the OT were influenced by the shortsighted thinking of the Hebrews at that time.
Christianity is continually evolving to adopt the most evolved ideas that reflect the state of consciousness of its congregation.  It is now obvious that genocide is not the way to develop the consciousness of its people.
In fact, all religions in the world today are realizing that fundamentalism and radicalism of their individual dogmas are not contributing to peace.  Fundamentalism is only contributing to destruction which we're seeing in Iraq and Syria.
The next step in the development of human beings is to understand that consciousness is common to all humans.  It is the link that binds everyone to the Unified Field, which is the objective of all religions.  I am sure there is a way to communicate this idea in a way that conforms with the language and dogmas of all religions.


---In ***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :


Christians like to tell the rest of us that their religion teachespeace, love and understanding. They also are fond of saying that theBible is the greatest book ever written. Well, folks, they can't haveit both ways. The fact is that the Bible promotes genocide, thesystematic destruction of entire populations of human beings. If that'sChristian compassion, then I'm the Pope.
Don't believe that the Bible teaches genocide? Check out thefollowing verses, just two of the many from the Bible that suggest thatGod himself thinks that genocide is a wonderful idea:
Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving outfrom before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and thePerizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lestyou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you aregoing, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy theiraltars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images(For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name isJealous, is a jealous God.)Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the swordbefore you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of youshall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the swordbefore you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful,multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the oldharvest, and clear out the old because of the new.Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9
So this is God's love: if he looks favorably upon you, he'll help yougo out and slaughter ten thousand people just because they belong toanother ethic group and are already living on the land you want foryourself. Furthermore, the Bible says that he wants you to go out andcommit cultural genocide, destroying the religious buildings and holyobjects of rival religions. So come on, Christians! Hop to it! Surelyyou believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, don't you?I'll bet you can find some non-Christian temple and start your pillagetoday!
If you think I'm being sarcastic, or am just making an academic pointabout a couple of long-forgotten verses that have no connection to theway that Christianity is practiced today, you're wrong. These biblicalverses, and others like them, have been used by Christians for thousandsof years to justify hundreds, if not thousands, of horrific acts ofgenocide. Just in the last couple of years, the Christian Yugoslavgovernment led by the popular leader Slobodan Milosevic slaughtered hugenumbers of ethnic Albanian Muslims, citing the Bible's genocidallanguage as justification.
Now, some peaceable apologetic Christians will argue that Christianslike Milosevic have merely misunderstood the teachings of the Bible.They'll claim that God required his followers to commit genocidalatrocities during the time of the Old Testament but that Jesus brought aNew Testament which instead instructs people to turn the other cheek.
First of all, Christian history does not bear this New Testament ideaout. Christian armies never turned the other cheek when theyslaughtered their enemies in the name of God. Church leaders supportedthese acts and often led the clamor for holy wars.
Secondly, the New Testament argument destroys the very foundationthat Christianity is built upon. If God is really all-powerful andall-knowing and all-loving, then he can't possibly have meant to tellhis followers to go out and engage in acts of ethnic cleansing and thenhave changed his mind a thousand years or so later. If God really knowsall and can do whatever he wants, why couldn't he have brought Jesusand the New Testament down earlier and saved the Earth a whole lot ofbloodshed? Waiting around to teach forgiveness after you've beenteaching human slaughter doesn't sound very all-loving to me. Whichevertack you take, the argument that a New Testament separates modernChristianity from the atrocities of the Old Testament is a theologicallyunsound excuse.
That also goes for the whole rigamarole that Christians go through togive themselves the title of God's new Chosen People. This oldChristian canard argues that God used to call the Jews his ChosenPeople, but the Jews weren't worthy, so since the arrival of Jesus, theChosen People are the Christians. Honestly, I don't see what differenceit makes who the Chosen People are -- I don't think that they ought tohave the right to go around and kill people just because they aren'tChosen. It doesn't matter whether genocide takes place on the basis ofethnicity or religion. It's still genocide.Besides, all the Christian protestations about being followers of theNew Testaments and not the Old Testament are shown to be the hollowexcuses they are by the continued use of the Old Testament bypractically every Christian church on the face of the Earth. IfChristianity really repudiates the Old Testament, then why is the OldTestament still included in the Christian Holy Bible? Why do Christianpriests and preachers still base entire doctrines on Old TestamentVerses? Why do Christian politicians try to get the Ten Commandmentsposted in public places? Why do most Christians still circumcize theirlittle boys if they don't believe in keeping the old covenant with God?
Christiansaccuse New Age practitioners of taking a buffet approach to religion:just taking whatever teachings from whatever traditions they like andthen ignoring the ones they don't like. Pardon me, but I don't see howthe Christians are any different. If you're a real, consistentChristian, you ought to join with other Christians to form a holy armyto massacre as many non-Christians as you can, starting today.




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