Surfing with Will Borgeson in '84, words and pictures

[Surfer Bob]

An atmospheric sketch (with pictures!) of a surf session with Will
Borgeson twenty years ago this month

Intro

I met Will Borgeson in the summer of 1984 when I was an undergraduate
student at UC Berkeley doing Ralph Smith's excellent marine biology
field course at UC Davis' Bodega Bay Marine Lab in Sonoma County, CA.
Will was the tech guy who maintained the aquaria and supported all the
wet lab setups and aquaculture projects. I first saw him in the water
at day's end, surfing this little wave breaking where no surf had been
even half an hour before. I hooted. He waved. When he came in he
introduced himself and offered to loan me a board. I thanked him and
arranged to have a friend drive my board up from southern California
that weekend.

The Wave

Will and I surfed together about a dozen times that unusually sunny
summer, mostly at Horseshoe Cove right in front of the lab. The spot
was so fickle and tide dependent, I called it "The Tease." A local
harbor seal had it dialed in. He'd hang around the lineup waiting for
just the right tide. When it all came together and the wave
materialized he'd fly like a shadowy torpedo through those fleeting
green walls, while we scrambled for boards and wetsuits. There were
two distinct sections. A wild, foamy outside takeoff would launch you
way out onto a rapidly fading shoulder. A definitive full rail cutback
would redirect you back towards the reforming hook as the wave wrapped
around into the cove where the onshore winds blew cross/offshore and
planed away the chop. Then you'd drop over the ledge into a lined up,
cleaned up inside racetrack section that on good days would zip off
into the sandy cove with shoulder high, hollow perfection. Awooo!

The Zeitgeist

Then as now it was an election year and an Olympic year. That summer
Ronald Reagan, running for his second term as President, tried to
score points with the youth of America by claiming Bruce Springsteen's
anthem "Born in the USA" as his own theme song. The Boss told The
Chief to listen more closely to his lyrics and encouraged his fans to
register to vote.

That summer Penthouse magazine published nude pictures of Miss America
and they took away her crown. I guess we were all supposed to want
her, but not in that way. Cindi Lauper told us "Girls Just Want to
Have Fun" and waited for us "Time After Time." Everybody danced while
Huey Lewis sang "I Want a New Drug."

Nancy Reagan told us to "just say no to drugs" but no one listened to
her. Everyone from the CIA to the Muhajadeen to the Contras to John
Delorian was paying their bills with drug money, but only poor black
men were going to jail for it. Half a world away Iraqis and Iranians
were slaughtering each other and we were backing Saddam Hussein even
though his chemical weapons use embarrassed us. In Afghanistan, young
Osama bin Laden and his recruits were "freedom fighters," and our
operatives worked shoulder to shoulder with Muslim extremists and
heroin drug lords to fight "the evil empire." (= the USSR, not yet our
friends). It only made sense in The Great Communicator's famous
speeches.

Back home The Gipper proclaimed it was "Morning in America" and the
Olympic Games unfolded with great pageantry in Los Angeles.
Windsurfing was introduced as a specialty event and competition took
place at the beach where I learned to surf. At days' end when The
Tease was flat we'd watch the Olympic athletes over burgers at a very
rural tavern with "the coldest beer in town!" just down the road from
Will's place.

It was an El Nino year, which was tough for local fishermen but
interesting for marine biology students. Southern fish, birds, and
plankton normally strangers to the coast of northern California were
turning up all around. I practiced playing guitar with fingerpicks and
wrote songs about water, sand, and women. I wisely avoided
entanglements with a devastatingly cute but alarmingly manipulative
classmate who looked just like my ex-girlfriend. I kept my head down,
worked hard, learned a lot about marine invertebrates, and earned an
A. I filled my sister's VW bug full of friends, drove them to bars
with live music every weekend, and surfed as much as I could that
glorious summer.

The Photos

One day, 20 years ago this month, I took pictures of the surf in the
cove. It was one of the better days of the season. Before I paddled
out I handed my camera to a classmate on the beach with instructions
to shoot the whole roll. He was not a surfer and missed plenty of
action shots, but he got a few good ones of the inside section. All
pictures were shot from the beach with a hand-held Olympus OM1, 50mm
lens, Kodachrome 64 film. Here are some of them.

The outside, starting to look worthwhile. Get out there before it
shuts down!
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The inside, just before I paddled out.
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One cute girl to avoid. Think Cathy Ames from Steinbeck's "East of
Eden."
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Me on my 6'1" Aipa-styled single-fin stinger. Huh? What thruster
revolution?
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\Loading Image...

A Hawaiian guy I only surfed with this once. I don't recall his name,
but he was light on his feet and stylish.
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Will had been surfing this place for years and had it wired.
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The best shot of the bunch. I know that I got the wave of the day and
that I got tubed. Will, who was very competitive in the water (and too
far inside to go), razzed me about it enviously at the time. Will and
my friend Dave later reviewed a 3"x5" print of this and agreed, "That
looks like a yellow board. Must be you, Bob." I wondered why it
didn't look quite as big or as hollow as I remembered. I figured my
rookie photographer must've missed the cover-up. I had that small
print on my wall for years.
Loading Image...

When I scanned the slide at high resolution last year and took a
closer look I found it was definitely not me in the pocket, but Will.
That's me paddling wide above Will, grinning ear-to-ear on my way back
from the sweet, shoulder-high, cover-up shack I remembered. My rookie
photographer did miss it. This is the best picture I have of my friend
Will Borgeson doing what he loved best, in the late afternoon sunshine
at the Bodega Bay Marine Lab where he worked for 27 years.
Loading Image...

The tide filled in a tad and the wave shut down, as it always did
eventually. Will and I went in. Dave stayed out for another 20 minutes
hoping against hope for another gem. I shot this picture of him
shortly before he accepted that it was 'Game Over' for another day.
Loading Image...

The Coda

Summer ended and I went back to Berkeley for fall semester.
Springsteen played 4 hours straight to a sold-out crowd at the Oakland
Arena and made me a fan. Reagan rolled Fritz Mondale in November. Will
encouraged me to come up and surf with him in the fall, but it was too
far for a student without a car. We lost touch. Twelve years later I
started reading alt.surfing and we renewed our friendship via Usenet
and p-mail. In his later years we shared some waves much bigger and
better than anything we surfed that Sonoma County summer. Eighteen
years later Will's earthly remains were found a stone's throw from
this beach. I still miss him and wonder just what he couldn't work
out.

I'd like to think that harbor seals still surf that wave. Maybe
descendants of the one that used to show up every late afternoon when
I was there. Surfing was banned by the Director of the marine lab
years ago, so they have it all to themselves again. Don't tell them I
named their spot in this piece.

And so it was,
Surfer Bob

[shaft®]

Post by Surfer Bob
The Photos
One day, 20 years ago this month, I took pictures of the surf in the
cove. It was one of the better days of the season. Before I paddled
out I handed my camera to a classmate on the beach with instructions
to shoot the whole roll. He was not a surfer and missed plenty of
action shots, but he got a few good ones of the inside section. All
pictures were shot from the beach with a hand-held Olympus OM1, 50mm
lens, Kodachrome 64 film. Here are some of them.

Good words, style and pix.

Post by Surfer Bob
One cute girl to avoid. Think Cathy Ames from Steinbeck's "East of
Eden."
http://homepage.mac.com/tbmaddux/rtwillsurfpics/horseshoecove3.jpg

I didn't know you were a hetrosexual?

Post by Surfer Bob
The best shot of the bunch. I know that I got the wave of the day and
that I got tubed. Will, who was very competitive in the water (and too
far inside to go), razzed me about it enviously at the time. Will and
my friend Dave later reviewed a 3"x5" print of this and agreed, "That
looks like a yellow board. Must be you, Bob." I wondered why it
didn't look quite as big or as hollow as I remembered. I figured my
rookie photographer must've missed the cover-up. I had that small
print on my wall for years.
http://homepage.mac.com/tbmaddux/rtwillsurfpics/will3.jpg

Kinda smallish for my tastes tho.

Post by Surfer Bob
Eighteen
years later Will's earthly remains were found a stone's throw from
this beach. I still miss him and wonder just what he couldn't work
out.

I've seen a lot of ppl lose all hope when they deny the existence of God.

[Mike Sullivan]

snip

Post by shaft®

Post by Surfer Bob
Eighteen
years later Will's earthly remains were found a stone's throw from
this beach. I still miss him and wonder just what he couldn't work
out.

I've seen a lot of ppl lose all hope when they deny the existence of God.

Right, either that or the Texas Longhorns lose to the Sooners.

[shaft®]

Post by Mike Sullivan
Right, either that or the Texas Longhorns lose to the Sooners.

Not you sally. You're so big and strong!

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by shaft®

Post by Mike Sullivan
Right, either that or the Texas Longhorns lose to the Sooners.

Not you sally. You're so big and strong!

Which of those 12 steps is the one that you let the big
guy upstairs take care of everything?

pleni sunt coeli et terra gloria tua
hosanna in excelsis.

I still remember the altar boy mass responses... the latin ones
I mean. I never had to learn the english ones, thank
goodness.

'Father Kennedy, get yur fricken hands off me'

Mike

[shaft®]

Post by Mike Sullivan
Which of those 12 steps is the one that you let the big
guy upstairs take care of everything?

How many universes have you created today?

Post by Mike Sullivan
I still remember the altar boy mass responses... the latin ones
I mean. I never had to learn the english ones, thank
goodness.

You were molested by a catholic priest. Not God.

Get some therapy!

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by shaft®

Post by Mike Sullivan
Which of those 12 steps is the one that you let the big
guy upstairs take care of everything?

How many universes have you created today?

lol. the origins of the universe are really puzzling and hard for me to
figure out, do you understand the singularity and the big bang?
I don't, I've read it and can't figure it out. I can't conceive of
other dimensions that theoretical physics say might be out there,
nor can I fold my rather smooth brain entirely around the
workings of relativity.
I'm not very bright that way.

It absolutely musta been the Tin Can that did it!

Post by shaft®

Post by Mike Sullivan
I still remember the altar boy mass responses... the latin ones
I mean. I never had to learn the english ones, thank
goodness.

You were molested by a catholic priest. Not God.

no I wasn't, used to go out drinking with one, though.
He was a great guy! KILLED me on sports trivia.

Post by shaft®
Get some therapy!

I'll just borrow some of yours

[SKIPPER]

Post by Mike Sullivan

Post by shaft®

Post by Mike Sullivan
Which of those 12 steps is the one that you let the big
guy upstairs take care of everything?

How many universes have you created today?

lol. the origins of the universe are really puzzling and hard for me to
figure out, do you understand the singularity and the big bang?
I don't, I've read it and can't figure it out. I can't conceive of
other dimensions that theoretical physics say might be out there,
nor can I fold my rather smooth brain entirely around the
workings of relativity.
I'm not very bright that way.

Lissencephaly is a bitch.

Try a green tea and brown rirce fast.

-PA

[Mike Sullivan]

snip

Post by SKIPPER

Post by Mike Sullivan
I'm not very bright that way.

Lissencephaly is a bitch.
Try a green tea and brown rirce fast.

and I'll share it with the repugnant convention in new yawk.

[Surfer Bob]

Post by shaft®
Good words, style and pix.

Thank you. Good old Kodachrome.

Post by shaft®
I didn't know you were a hetrosexual?

Your faulty gaydar embarrasses you constantly.

Post by shaft®
Kinda smallish for my tastes tho.

Mine too. Bigger on the outside, but my rookie cameraman with a short
lens didn't shoot out there. My one shot of the outside hints at this.
Nevertheless this was definitely the cleanest, best-shaped little wave
for many miles up or down the coast on any given late summer afternoon
with a strong onshore breeze.

Post by shaft®
I've seen a lot of ppl lose all hope when they deny the existence of God.

Perceptions of God come in all shapes and sizes. Some kinds can
certainly sustain one when the going gets tough. But it is not unknown
for true believers to take their own lives. Whether or not this is a
sin in God's eyes is a very old controversy.

Surfer Bob

[Andy]

Post by Surfer Bob
An atmospheric sketch (with pictures!) of a surf session with Will
Borgeson twenty years ago this month
Intro
And so it was,
Surfer Bob

Good words Bob,


Andy

[SurffOhio]

Post by Andy

Post by Surfer Bob
And so it was,
Surfer Bob

Good words Bob,

Yo!! I was right. You are a good man, Surfer Bob.

Surff

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by Surfer Bob
An atmospheric sketch (with pictures!) of a surf session with Will
Borgeson twenty years ago this month

sorry. I don't respect suicide. He had kids, grown, yes, but people
he hurt in that selfish act. If somehow that had gone south I can
understand that sort of despair. That's something time and effort
can heal, not undo, but heal.

I'm prolly missing some information somewhere, maybe he had
a terminal disease that was taking him anyway, that he wanted
to off himself before he became not himself. That I support.

Otherwise, shove me off the bandwagon. Live your life.

Mike

[george of the jungle]

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:07:38 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

Post by Mike Sullivan

Post by Surfer Bob
An atmospheric sketch (with pictures!) of a surf session with Will
Borgeson twenty years ago this month

sorry. I don't respect suicide.

I don't either but...

Post by Mike Sullivan
He had kids, grown, yes, but people
he hurt in that selfish act. If somehow that had gone south I can
understand that sort of despair.

depression is a dark beast that can pull you under. Bipolars can
swing so hard that they want to die. Many do.

Post by Mike Sullivan
That's something time and effort
can heal, not undo, but heal.
I'm prolly missing some information somewhere, maybe he had
a terminal disease that was taking him anyway, that he wanted
to off himself before he became not himself. That I support.

I think that my father popped a few pills when the cancer got to that
point. He went out sleeping. It could have been much, much worse.

_g

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by george of the jungle
On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:07:38 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

snip

Post by george of the jungle
depression is a dark beast that can pull you under. Bipolars can
swing so hard that they want to die. Many do.

true. We've had this discussion, and I often lose
this argument. Still, I can't shake the feeling that
it's a 'disease' the privileged, well fed, and have
choices seem to obtain. I see hundreds of guys
fruitlessly looking for work,
hanging on the street corners in Redwood City
at 5th and El Camino or 5th and Middlefield and
none of them will claim to be depressed. I know
some are well educated and are feeding families
at home.

I got a good friend who's bigger than me, stronger,
smarter, and fucks himself up on drugs. I feel
everything but sorry for him, and told him if he gets
himself killed in his downward spiral, I'll piss on his
grave at his funeral. In the meantime, I help him
move when he needs to move, hook up and laugh
with him whenever we can, and don't bitch at him.

Post by george of the jungle

Post by Mike Sullivan
That's something time and effort
can heal, not undo, but heal.
I'm prolly missing some information somewhere, maybe he had
a terminal disease that was taking him anyway, that he wanted
to off himself before he became not himself. That I support.

I think that my father popped a few pills when the cancer got to that
point. He went out sleeping. It could have been much, much worse.

Like I said, different case. Me, if I show up at a basketball court
and I try to play and my nerve synapses move slower than the
basketball that rolls past me, I have a mexican friend who I've
contracted to off me.

He told me to take him out when he has gold teeth.

Was Will terminally ill? I asked that question of people that
worked with him at the lab, nobody knew.

I will see some of them again this weekend, I'll ask again.
If I'm wrong, I'll humbly take it back and write a poem in
his honor.

Mike

[george of the jungle]

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:13:03 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

Post by Mike Sullivan

Post by george of the jungle
On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:07:38 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

snip

Post by george of the jungle
depression is a dark beast that can pull you under. Bipolars can
swing so hard that they want to die. Many do.

true. We've had this discussion, and I often lose
this argument. Still, I can't shake the feeling that
it's a 'disease' the privileged, well fed, and have
choices seem to obtain. I see hundreds of guys
fruitlessly looking for work,
hanging on the street corners in Redwood City
at 5th and El Camino or 5th and Middlefield and
none of them will claim to be depressed. I know
some are well educated and are feeding families
at home.

Alcoholism is the vehicle of choice for the depressed poor. Of course,
alcoholism is a character flaw, not a symptom of disease....

Yes, I admire the courage of the day laborers who manage to look for
work every day. And all of the people who find happiness in a shit
job like waitressing at Dennys. I admire all of the happy people who
know they will never have much but friends, family and community. I
have tried to learn from them.

_g

[pnwk]

....

Post by george of the jungle
Yes, I admire the courage of the day laborers who manage to look for
work every day. And all of the people who find happiness in a shit
job like waitressing at Dennys. I admire all of the happy people who
know they will never have much but friends, family and community. I
have tried to learn from them.

and reminds us of what a bunch of unhappy gluttons we are

[george of the jungle]

Post by pnwk
....

Post by george of the jungle
Yes, I admire the courage of the day laborers who manage to look for
work every day. And all of the people who find happiness in a shit
job like waitressing at Dennys. I admire all of the happy people who
know they will never have much but friends, family and community. I
have tried to learn from them.

and reminds us of what a bunch of unhappy gluttons we are

Things don't make you happy.

_g

[Mike Sullivan]

snip

Post by george of the jungle

Post by pnwk
and reminds us of what a bunch of unhappy gluttons we are

Things don't make you happy.

er.. ah...

how 'bout 'sweet little things' ?

:^)

[pnwk]

Post by george of the jungle

Post by pnwk
....

Post by george of the jungle
Yes, I admire the courage of the day laborers who manage to look for
work every day. And all of the people who find happiness in a shit
job like waitressing at Dennys. I admire all of the happy people who
know they will never have much but friends, family and community. I
have tried to learn from them.

and reminds us of what a bunch of unhappy gluttons we are

Things don't make you happy.
_g

yes buddha
try tell that to arnuld
economic girly man

[shaft®]

Post by pnwk

Post by george of the jungle
Things don't make you happy.

They do cultivate the illusion of happiness.

Post by pnwk
yes buddha
try tell that to arnuld
economic girly man

lol. The more cash you have, the longer you can cultivate
that illusion.

[pnwk]

Post by shaft®

Post by pnwk

Post by george of the jungle
Things don't make you happy.

They do cultivate the illusion of happiness.

Post by pnwk
yes buddha
try tell that to arnuld
economic girly man

lol. The more cash you have, the longer you can cultivate
that illusion.

fortunately that it doesnt work for that nixonite cheney

[Neal Miyake]

Post by george of the jungle
Yes, I admire the courage of the day laborers who manage to look for
work every day. And all of the people who find happiness in a shit
job like waitressing at Dennys...

How about waitressing at Dani's? ;-)

Post by george of the jungle
I admire all of the happy people who
know they will never have much but friends, family and community. I
have tried to learn from them.

When you said that I thought of Waimea and Ahukini, specifically the
old fishermen on the piers.

They don't know any better. Or maybe, they *do* know better.

sponge

[george of the jungle]

Post by Neal Miyake

Post by george of the jungle
Yes, I admire the courage of the day laborers who manage to look for
work every day. And all of the people who find happiness in a shit
job like waitressing at Dennys...

How about waitressing at Dani's? ;-)

For Kauai that's not a terrible job. It's a lot more personal than
Dennys. (The name even has has an apostrophe).

Post by Neal Miyake

Post by george of the jungle
I admire all of the happy people who
know they will never have much but friends, family and community. I
have tried to learn from them.

When you said that I thought of Waimea and Ahukini, specifically the
old fishermen on the piers.
They don't know any better. Or maybe, they *do* know better.
sponge

Hawaiians know better. I know families that come over to Kauai to
have a baby then go back to Niihau to be with family. They chose to
avoid the modern world.

Of course, they can only escape so much. The PMRF's activities are
extending to Niihau now.

_g

[SKIPPER]

Post by Mike Sullivan

Post by george of the jungle
On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:07:38 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

snip

Post by george of the jungle
depression is a dark beast that can pull you under. Bipolars can
swing so hard that they want to die. Many do.

true. We've had this discussion, and I often lose
this argument. Still, I can't shake the feeling that
it's a 'disease' the privileged, well fed, and have
choices seem to obtain.

You should spend some time living with, or treating one, who
has a serious case. You'll sing a different tune.

-PA

[Mike Sullivan]

snip

Post by SKIPPER
You should spend some time living with, or treating one, who
has a serious case. You'll sing a different tune.

I have. couple times, couple different people, some
in serious death spirals.

Mike

[Surfer Bob]

Post by Mike Sullivan
Was Will terminally ill? I asked that question of people that
worked with him at the lab, nobody knew.

If so, he gave no hint of it to anybody. I knew Will pretty well and
he confided in me on a number of subjects but he never mentioned
illness. I saw no evidence of alcoholism at any time.

He was going through a divorce to his wife of many years, experiencing
some job stress, retirement planning stress, and was a fairly macho
man dealing with aging. He had a new younger girlfriend for a few
months near the end, with whom who he apparently split up. He was
feeling very uprooted and in a transitional place in his life, after
some 30+ years of a very stable situation. His kids were grown and on
their own.

I suspect he may have succumbed to that very prevalent myth of the
independent, self sufficient American man who is not supposed to need
help from anyone to forge ahead through all adversity. I fault him (as
I fault other suicides I have known or heard of) for failing to take
good advantage of the full range of social and emotional resources
available to help him.

I wrote a lot about my contact with Will in his last year in the
eulogy I wrote for him a few years back. If you missed that, you might
want to read it now.
http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22Will+Borgeson+as+I+knew+him+%22+group:alt.surfing&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=ee80f572.0202141509.733747c0%40posting.google.com&rnum=1

It's also in the archives of e-mails under Will's entry on the AS
points page at AShub. There's a place saver there for a picture of
Will. I suggest that one or more of these pictures go there. Maybe add
this whole piece to the AShub, if folks deem it worthy.

Stay alive. Keep surfing.

Surfer Bob

[Mike Sullivan]

snip

Post by Surfer Bob
I wrote a lot about my contact with Will in his last year in the
eulogy I wrote for him a few years back. If you missed that, you might
want to read it now.

http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22Will+Borgeson+as+I+knew+him+%22+group:alt.surfing&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=ee80f572.0202141509.733747c0%40posting.google.com&rnum=1

Yes, that was great stuff, Bob. It's a good read and a good
topic. Of course, every good thread needs a 'designated dickhead'
and it was my turn.

Mike

[george of the jungle]

Post by Surfer Bob

Post by Mike Sullivan
Was Will terminally ill? I asked that question of people that
worked with him at the lab, nobody knew.

If so, he gave no hint of it to anybody. I knew Will pretty well and
he confided in me on a number of subjects but he never mentioned
illness. I saw no evidence of alcoholism at any time.
He was going through a divorce to his wife of many years, experiencing
some job stress, retirement planning stress, and was a fairly macho
man dealing with aging. He had a new younger girlfriend for a few
months near the end, with whom who he apparently split up. He was
feeling very uprooted and in a transitional place in his life, after
some 30+ years of a very stable situation. His kids were grown and on
their own.
I suspect he may have succumbed to that very prevalent myth of the
independent, self sufficient American man who is not supposed to need
help from anyone to forge ahead through all adversity. I fault him (as
I fault other suicides I have known or heard of) for failing to take
good advantage of the full range of social and emotional resources
available to help him.

Bob, thanks for the insights and wise words. Shaft may have been onto
something. The God of the NT is people sharing and caring for
eachother. The problem with organized religion, however, is that it
loses track of the first and great commandment which is the foundation
for all the law and the prophets.

The myth of the independent American male breaks down with age and
loss. It is a mirage of youth. Enjoy the mirage, but don't buy the
bullshit.

We live in a country built on a contradiction - A Christian nation in
persuit of wealth. Slavery and genocide are unChristian but the
founding fathers allowed both. So did most Christian churches.

I get the feeling that people like Sully don't believe because they
see the contradictions and hypocrisy in the church and they know that
there is no man in the sky. The Burning Bush is a gas seep on fire.
But, the good Samaritan was not a believer, yet he was the true man of
God, not the priest that walked on.

Einstein said that God doesn't play dice with the universe, but he
knew full well that quantum mechanics, which he helped discover is
preciesly that. A surfer knows that surf patterns are like a roll of
the dice. And so are our lives.

Which brings us back to the absurdity of the self-sufficient American
man and the need for community.

'Scuse me while I melt down.

_g

[SteveM]

Post by george of the jungle
I get the feeling that people like Sully don't believe because they
see the contradictions and hypocrisy in the church

Not answering for Sully, but for the concept in general:
Bingo!

I know there are other reasons for people not believing,
but when it's *this* reason, it really sadens me.
When Jesus saw hypocrits, He didn't run away and
stop believing; He confronted them and hoped that those
people, still worthy and most with otherwise good intentions,
would see where they were going wrong and putting
themselves above others.

Later,
Steve

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by SteveM

Post by george of the jungle
I get the feeling that people like Sully don't believe because they
see the contradictions and hypocrisy in the church

Bingo!
I know there are other reasons for people not believing,
but when it's *this* reason, it really sadens me.

The hypocrisy is not the reason, but it's pretty funny
to watch.

JW missionaries don't visit me anymore, I miss them.
I told them to come by anytime.

Mike

[SteveM]

Post by Mike Sullivan
The hypocrisy is not the reason, but it's pretty funny
to watch.
JW missionaries don't visit me anymore, I miss them.
I told them to come by anytime.

I'm sure that would be pretty funny to watch too.

<insert the "not so devout that I lost my sense of
humor" smiley face here>

Later,
Steve

[Mike Sullivan]

snip

Post by george of the jungle
We live in a country built on a contradiction - A Christian nation in
persuit of wealth. Slavery and genocide are unChristian but the
founding fathers allowed both. So did most Christian churches.

I think the Quakers are way cool. I don't think I'd ever have
the courage and conviction to be that sort of moral person,
christian or no.

Post by george of the jungle
I get the feeling that people like Sully don't believe because they
see the contradictions and hypocrisy in the church and they know that
there is no man in the sky. The Burning Bush is a gas seep on fire.
But, the good Samaritan was not a believer, yet he was the true man of
God, not the priest that walked on.

The one event that changed me from a skeptical 'maybe there's
a god' to a full blown atheist was when I sat down and actually
read the babble from cover to cover. If that mess is the word
of gawd, I think I'll go read the Tin Can label.

I love ghost stories, I even have a couple good ones for
a beach fire and a beer or two, but don't think there's such
a real thing as a spirit.

I had a very real dream once where I introduced my kids to
my mom who died many years ago. I think of her as still
being out there and talk that way, but she isn't really.

I won't be either, and that's cool with me. BTW, I don't
tell my kids what to think, I told them how I think and how
I got there. My daughter's pretty smart, she finds herself
in religious arguments with friends where she takes the
skeptical POV against them. She admits though to me
that she doesn't know enough and simply parrots the
arguments I've used in discussions with local mormon
and jw missionaries that come by and have a beer
with me, just like her friends parrot their propaganda
as well. Good girl, skeptical of her old man's POV!

Mike


Mike

[george of the jungle]

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:38:27 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

Post by Mike Sullivan
snip

Post by george of the jungle
We live in a country built on a contradiction - A Christian nation in
persuit of wealth. Slavery and genocide are unChristian but the
founding fathers allowed both. So did most Christian churches.

I think the Quakers are way cool. I don't think I'd ever have
the courage and conviction to be that sort of moral person,
christian or no.

Post by george of the jungle
I get the feeling that people like Sully don't believe because they
see the contradictions and hypocrisy in the church and they know that
there is no man in the sky. The Burning Bush is a gas seep on fire.
But, the good Samaritan was not a believer, yet he was the true man of
God, not the priest that walked on.

The one event that changed me from a skeptical 'maybe there's
a god' to a full blown atheist was when I sat down and actually
read the babble from cover to cover. If that mess is the word
of gawd, I think I'll go read the Tin Can label.

My wife read it from cover to cover in first grade but I got lost in
the desert somewhere in the OT. I have read the NT repeatedly during
bad sermons and also studied it as a junior in HS but Revelations
escaped me. My wife's a lot smarter verbally than I am. Maybe she's a
lot smarter than me period!

I gave a sermon about a year ago. I came to a passage in the OT when I
was reading to prepare that was pretty shocking by modern standards.
Some children laughed, as children do, at one of the prophets. God
sent a bear to devour them.

I cannot believe in a God that would do that, either. The OT was
written by many authors and reflects individual viewpoints...not to
mention the prrblems with transcription and translation.

And I get tired of hearing people tell me that God carved the Ten
Commandments in stone but didn't put radioisotopic evidence in rocks
and meteorites that the earth is about 4.6x10E9 years old.

Post by Mike Sullivan
I love ghost stories, I even have a couple good ones for
a beach fire and a beer or two, but don't think there's such
a real thing as a spirit.

You're not drinking enough. There's a spiritual side to you.
Reality is that material things are mostly empty space.

Post by Mike Sullivan
I had a very real dream once where I introduced my kids to
my mom who died many years ago. I think of her as still
being out there and talk that way, but she isn't really.

But you can still see her. She's not out there she's with you.

Post by Mike Sullivan
I won't be either, and that's cool with me.

You won't slip away that easily.

Post by Mike Sullivan
BTW, I don't
tell my kids what to think, I told them how I think and how
I got there. My daughter's pretty smart, she finds herself
in religious arguments with friends where she takes the
skeptical POV against them. She admits though to me
that she doesn't know enough

None of us know enough.

Post by Mike Sullivan
and simply parrots the
arguments I've used in discussions with local mormon
and jw missionaries that come by and have a beer
with me, just like her friends parrot their propaganda
as well. Good girl, skeptical of her old man's POV!

What I do know is that the ideas that Jesus taught are as true today
as ever. Whether the Dali Lama presents those ideas or my local
minister does makes no difference to me. When communities of people
act on those ideas, good things happen. You might say that they have
a spirit of goodness. Or you might say that they are filled with the
spirit of God.

So go on being an atheist. But don't stop caring.

Aloha,
George

PS maybe you should drop in on a Quaker meeting.

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by george of the jungle
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:38:27 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

snip

Post by george of the jungle
What I do know is that the ideas that Jesus taught are as true today
as ever. Whether the Dali Lama presents those ideas or my local
minister does makes no difference to me. When communities of people
act on those ideas, good things happen. You might say that they have
a spirit of goodness. Or you might say that they are filled with the
spirit of God.

Not believing in a god does not equate to dismissing truly
excellent thinking in the babble, particularly the teachings
of Jesus.
Jesus got some great stuff to say, btw. I like this one:

'Sell everything you have and give to the poor'

How 'bout you, george? As an atheist, I can look at this teaching and
temper it as being hyperbole from a dude trying to make a point.

Jesus says stuff like this all through Luke.
He says it's hard for rich people to live a moral life.

How does a theist rationalize this teaching against his
own life if it is the literal word of God?

I know only one christian who's actually done this,
sell all his goods and give to the poor, that is. I think
he's nuts, but a great guy.

Post by george of the jungle
So go on being an atheist. But don't stop caring.

lol, couldn't I say? So go on being a theist, but don't stop caring.

My view as an atheist isn't to reject that there's such a thing
as a god, there's absolutely no way to prove he doesn't exist,
just that he's irrelevant to life, or morality.

Post by george of the jungle
PS maybe you should drop in on a Quaker meeting.

How do you think I know that they're so cool?

I don't make this stuff up, George!

Mike

[george of the jungle]

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:48:49 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

Post by Mike Sullivan

Post by george of the jungle
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:38:27 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

snip

Post by george of the jungle
What I do know is that the ideas that Jesus taught are as true today
as ever. Whether the Dali Lama presents those ideas or my local
minister does makes no difference to me. When communities of people
act on those ideas, good things happen. You might say that they have
a spirit of goodness. Or you might say that they are filled with the
spirit of God.

Not believing in a god does not equate to dismissing truly
excellent thinking in the babble, particularly the teachings
of Jesus.
'Sell everything you have and give to the poor'
How 'bout you, george? As an atheist, I can look at this teaching and
temper it as being hyperbole from a dude trying to make a point.

So can I. I'm not a literalist.
However, He and the apostles did leave everything behind. They
depended on the hospitality of the people in the towns they visited.

Post by Mike Sullivan
Jesus says stuff like this all through Luke.
He says it's hard for rich people to live a moral life.

He is correct. Look at how the leaders of most big U.S corporations
behave. Enron. Look at how wealthy US leaders rush us into Iraq for
oil and ignore the starving in Sudan. When our forces got into Iraq
we secured oil fields while hospitals were looted. We have hypocrite
leadership that claims to be Christian but serves mammon.

Post by Mike Sullivan
How does a theist rationalize this teaching against his
own life if it is the literal word of God?

That's exactly my point about the USA. Many of us claim to be
Christian but we are conflicted. We aren't living moral lives when we
don't care for the needy. We can argue how to deal with poverty, but
when we value wealth more than people we aren't acting as Christians
or even decent human beings.

Post by Mike Sullivan
I know only one christian who's actually done this,
sell all his goods and give to the poor, that is. I think
he's nuts, but a great guy.

Is he happy? Maybe he knows something you don't. I do worry about
how he will survive in old age, however.

Post by Mike Sullivan

Post by george of the jungle
So go on being an atheist. But don't stop caring.

lol, couldn't I say? So go on being a theist, but don't stop caring.

Sure.

Post by Mike Sullivan
My view as an atheist isn't to reject that there's such a thing
as a god, there's absolutely no way to prove he doesn't exist,
just that he's irrelevant to life, or morality.

I don't think so. That would be a small man-made God like the one in
the OT that sends bears to eat children and makes assholes think they
will be rewarded in heaven for blowing themselves up in a crowded bus
full of mothers and children. God is the very essence of life,
existence and morality, not some old Semitic guy in the clouds.

Post by Mike Sullivan

Post by george of the jungle
PS maybe you should drop in on a Quaker meeting.

How do you think I know that they're so cool?
I don't make this stuff up, George!

Excellent!

_g

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by george of the jungle
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:48:49 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

snip

Post by george of the jungle

Post by Mike Sullivan
I know only one christian who's actually done this,
sell all his goods and give to the poor, that is. I think
he's nuts, but a great guy.

Is he happy? Maybe he knows something you don't. I do worry about
how he will survive in old age, however.

Lots of people know something I don't. But what diff if he
can't survive into old age, if he's headed to 'god's kingdom'?


snip

Post by george of the jungle

Post by Mike Sullivan
My view as an atheist isn't to reject that there's such a thing
as a god, there's absolutely no way to prove he doesn't exist,
just that he's irrelevant to life, or morality.

I don't think so. That would be a small man-made God like the one in
the OT that sends bears to eat children and makes assholes think they
will be rewarded in heaven for blowing themselves up in a crowded bus
full of mothers and children. God is the very essence of life,
existence and morality, not some old Semitic guy in the clouds.

but you're picking and choosing in the NT as well
as the OT. We each use our judgements to pick
and choose what is of moral value out of that book,
one of us atheist, one theist. What does god have to
do with it? We prolly have a whole lot in common in
our values from what I could tell. I bet we're both generous
but not nuts like my friend. I say it's your good judgement
and moral base, you say you're inspired by Jesus. But I
make the same choices and I'm not inspired.

To me it's no different than both of us out bodysurfing together
and one of us believing that there is a mighty spirit in the wave
that allows me to catch it and ride it. We catch the same peak
and you go left and I go right (of course) and are enthused
about our rides. I say it was because the spirit of the wave
captured my soul and drove me along the face, and you would
shrug and say 'hell I caught a wicked long left'.

Have you ever picked out a moral value out of a book that
wasn't the bible? I have lots of times. Was that inspired
by Jesus?

At dinner last night had a guy tell me honestly and truly no bullshit
that God selected Bush to be president.

Damn, I didn't know God was Anthony Scalia.

Mike

[george of the jungle]

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:38:25 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

Post by Mike Sullivan

Post by george of the jungle
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:48:49 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

Post by Mike Sullivan
My view as an atheist isn't to reject that there's such a thing
as a god, there's absolutely no way to prove he doesn't exist,
just that he's irrelevant to life, or morality.

I don't think so. That would be a small man-made God like the one in
the OT that sends bears to eat children and makes assholes think they
will be rewarded in heaven for blowing themselves up in a crowded bus
full of mothers and children. God is the very essence of life,
existence and morality, not some old Semitic guy in the clouds.

but you're picking and choosing in the NT as well
as the OT.

I am aware of the necessity of making choices. Literalists pick and
choose just like you and I do even if they are not aware of it.

Post by Mike Sullivan
We each use our judgements to pick
and choose what is of moral value out of that book,
one of us atheist, one theist. What does god have to
do with it?

We don't know. We just have our God given talents so to speak.

Post by Mike Sullivan
We prolly have a whole lot in common in
our values from what I could tell. I bet we're both generous
but not nuts like my friend. I say it's your good judgement
and moral base, you say you're inspired by Jesus. But I
make the same choices and I'm not inspired.

A rose by any other name...Many people get hung up on names and loose
track of the substance. Many of the positive values that are part of
our culture have Christian roots. The spirit of Jesus may be with you
right now but you know that spirit by another name. So I wouldn't say
you aren't inspired. You merely aren't aware of your inspiration.

Post by Mike Sullivan
To me it's no different than both of us out bodysurfing together
and one of us believing that there is a mighty spirit in the wave
that allows me to catch it and ride it. We catch the same peak
and you go left and I go right (of course) and are enthused
about our rides. I say it was because the spirit of the wave
captured my soul and drove me along the face, and you would
shrug and say 'hell I caught a wicked long left'.

The wave is. Our awareness of the nature of the wave may be different
but we both ride it. The wave is not changed by what we call it. We
are changed by our awareness of the wave.

Post by Mike Sullivan
Have you ever picked out a moral value out of a book that
wasn't the bible? I have lots of times. Was that inspired
by Jesus?

Maybe. Is the Dali Lama inspired by Jesus?

Post by Mike Sullivan
At dinner last night had a guy tell me honestly and truly no bullshit
that God selected Bush to be president.

And Armageddon is coming soon?

Post by Mike Sullivan
Damn, I didn't know God was Anthony Scalia.

Scary thought.

_g

[shaft®]

Post by Mike Sullivan
To me it's no different than both of us out bodysurfing together
and one of us believing that there is a mighty spirit in the wave
that allows me to catch it and ride it. We catch the same peak
and you go left and I go right (of course) and are enthused
about our rides. I say it was because the spirit of the wave
captured my soul and drove me along the face, and you would
shrug and say 'hell I caught a wicked long left'.

Like the reality behind a jb/carson slap fight or real wave heights
on the GL, you are not going to find spiritual truth on usenet.
But if you think it's going to help the ratings then I trust you...

Very few are qualified to speak God's truth and if they are it
is b/c they are indwelled by the spirit.

If you truly want to know the truth then just ask God. He
promises that for those who seek and knock he will provide
answers. Get it from the source.

It may not be the answer you like though...

[Mike Sullivan]

snip

Post by shaft®
Like the reality behind a jb/carson slap fight or real wave heights
on the GL, you are not going to find spiritual truth on usenet.

not looking, but thanks.

Post by shaft®
But if you think it's going to help the ratings then I trust you...

This thread's 'bout wore out. What happened to those
texas boys?

Post by shaft®
If you truly want to know the truth then just ask God. He
promises that for those who seek and knock he will provide
answers. Get it from the source.

Tin Can told me to go surfing. I'm going
to have to disobey the Tin Can today. I'm damned.

Mike

[Surfer Bob]

...truly excellent thinking in the babble, particularly the teachings
'Sell everything you have and give to the poor'

YEAH! Rich dudes who want to use Christianity to justify their hold on
wealth have been choking on this one for thousands of years. After all
the years, they have evolved a very elaborate means of
rationalization. In some quarters Jesus (who was basically a communist
by most objective modern economic definitions) has become a spiritual
and moral justification for running roughshod over human rights and
justice a thousand ways in ultimate defense of private property and
the right to amass wealth grossly surpassing that of your neighbors.

To mix my historic fiction with my history, anyone remember the great
11th century debates about "whether Jesus owned the clothes on his
back" (in which case ANY amount of wealth accumulation is supposed to
be OK) dramatized in the novel 'The Name of the Rose'?

...We have hypocrite leadership that claims to be Christian but serves Mammon.

Now THERE's a great soundbyte! You won't hear that one in the national
political debate this fall, now will you?

...God is the very essence of life,
existence and morality, not some old Semitic guy in the clouds.

But it doesn't surprise me at all that a religious book written by a
bunch of old Semitic guys portrays God that way. I marvel at how long
folks have been willing to cling to that image of God while remaining
so noncritical of the cultural influences that shaped it.

Part of what we're down to this election year is a conflict between
the values of those 2800-year-old Semitic guys (like homophobia,
misogyny, and indiscriminant, blood-soaked, scorched-earth justice)
and 0-200 year old American values (like equal protection before the
law). When push comes to shove, I stand by the modern American values.
And I expect my President to.

Post by george of the jungle
PS maybe you should drop in on a Quaker meeting.

Those guys are really cool in a thousand ways, but disappoint me in
having ZERO music program. Among my fondest childhood memories of
church are listening to jamming Bach fugues played with feeling on a
nice pipe organ.

Excellent!

Party on George! party on Sully!

Surfer Bob

[Mike Sullivan]

snip

Post by Surfer Bob
Part of what we're down to this election year is a conflict between
the values of those 2800-year-old Semitic guys (like homophobia,
misogyny, and indiscriminant, blood-soaked, scorched-earth justice)
and 0-200 year old American values (like equal protection before the
law). When push comes to shove, I stand by the modern American values.
And I expect my President to.

gawd appointed him, he don't hafta have values.

Post by Surfer Bob

Post by george of the jungle
PS maybe you should drop in on a Quaker meeting.

Those guys are really cool in a thousand ways, but disappoint me in
having ZERO music program. Among my fondest childhood memories of
church are listening to jamming Bach fugues played with feeling on a
nice pipe organ.

Ok, you caught me red handed. When I hear Bach's
Mass in B Minor or Verdi's Requiem, I do believe
in God, I do I do I do believe in God.


Mike

[george of the jungle]

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:32:30 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

Post by Mike Sullivan

Post by Surfer Bob

Post by george of the jungle
PS maybe you should drop in on a Quaker meeting.

Those guys are really cool in a thousand ways, but disappoint me in
having ZERO music program. Among my fondest childhood memories of
church are listening to jamming Bach fugues played with feeling on a
nice pipe organ.

Ok, you caught me red handed. When I hear Bach's
Mass in B Minor or Verdi's Requiem, I do believe
in God, I do I do I do believe in God.
Mike

The National Symphony did Verdi's Requiem just before Rostropovich
stepped down and I left for Kauai. I see that they will be performing
it again in 2005. Maybe that's the time to drop in for a visit to DC.

It's absolutely stunning live.

_g

[SteveM]

Post by Surfer Bob

...truly excellent thinking in the babble, particularly the teachings
'Sell everything you have and give to the poor'

YEAH! Rich dudes who want to use Christianity to justify their hold on
wealth have been choking on this one for thousands of years. After all
the years, they have evolved a very elaborate means of
rationalization. In some quarters Jesus (who was basically a communist
by most objective modern economic definitions) has become a spiritual
and moral justification for running roughshod over human rights and
justice a thousand ways in ultimate defense of private property and
the right to amass wealth grossly surpassing that of your neighbors.

My brain's about to explode. Too many posts, too many thoughts.
I'm just gonna try to be concise (yeah, right) and say things that
pertain to this thread as well as other replies, so ya gotta
try to remember them all.

First thought: I don't deny what you say above is true for *some*
"christians," but when you make comments like that, it tends
to appear to be a generalization even though i realize you did
qualify it with "in some quarters," but a lot of time people
miss that and think, "yeah, *all* those Christians are like that.
I just want to point out that there are many, if not a majority,
that tip the other way and would be in more agreement with Jesus'
teachings.

Next thought: Don't confuse opposition to *government programs*
to aid the poor and needy, with opposition *to* the poor and needy.
I oppose some government involvement because I think it is
abused (and yes, i think the same about corporate welfare).
Jesus said, "YOU sell your belongings and give to the poor"
(that's a paraphrased quote); he didn't say, "Go and set up
a government to oversee all the poor and needy, etc, and
give to that government so they can give to the poor."
Our responsibility to the poor comes on our individual selves.
You may argue that the government is more efficient, but that
is a copout and rejection of self-responsibility. You can't
tell me that if everyone took responsibility for just *one*
person in need, and did it with conviction, that that would
not be more immediate and efficient help than referring that
person to some govt agency and all its sordid requirements,
bureaucracy, etc. So, I do my best to aid the needy either
directly, or through local *private* organizations.

Next thought: Is is God or is it Me? I don't deny that
you can accomplish many things on your own and through
your own good intentions. I don't deny that you can
interpret things as being inspiring for sake of their existence,
or inspiring due to the influence of a divine being.
But I *can* speak from experience that the more I open
up myself listening to God and asking Him to direct me,
even if it puts me in a position of risk, incredible things
happen. Things I *know* can't be explained away by coincidence.
Sully mentioned not doing what the Tin Can asked him to
do. That's OK, because we still have free will. And not
listening once, or twice, or three times, etc. does not
damn you. I you truly want forgiveness and truly try
and turn from the behavior, it is there.

Back to not listening to the Tin Can. I've done that
before because I had other things to do, or other
excuses not to. But I tell you what, the times when
I'm ready not to listen and have all the excuses, but
then say, "Ya know, I think I'll do what He says anyway,"
it again turns out to result in something so incredible
that I again *know* it wasn't a coincidence.

It's a catch 22 though. You got to *fully* believe
and fully give yourself over. If your going say, "hmm,
let's see if what Steve says is right," and you do something
more as a test than with true sincerity, it might not work.
So yeah, it's very difficult to prove I'm right, i'm just
telling what I believe from experience.

One other thing that tends to confirm it for me and makes
me laugh at the humor; Every time I start to "feel good,"
as someone phrased it, about doing something good, and
I start to think its more about ME and what *I* can do,
rather than inspired by God, something goes wrong.
A very simplistic example, but one of the funniest:
I was happy about something I had done for someone
on the boardwalk while I was riding my bike. I was feeling
so good and proud of myself, and my happy energy was
directed towards riding faster. Well, just at the height
of my prideful hapiness, my almost-brand-new chain broke
apart and I went flying uncontrolably and had to walk the
bike home. Funny thing was, as *Soon* as it broke, I
realized my fault was giving ME the credit for something,
and not *GOD*. He was keeping me in check...I had to laugh.
Again, there lots more examples of that type thing
happening to let me know its not a coincidence.

Next thought: Giving to the poor is relative. Just as
someone said, if you want, you can pick and choose small
parts of the Bible to justify just about anything you
want. You need to take it in the complete context
of the general themes that go throughout it. So, just
as it says to sell everything and give to the poor, Jesus
also told the parable about talents (which at the time
meant money, but the story can be applied to both money,
and literal God-given talents). The jist of it was that
you dont sit on your talents, you use them to help
people. The more you use to help, the more you get.
So, as long as those rich people use their money, or talents,
wisely, that is not hypocritical. Again, I'm not denying
that there *are* hypocritical Christians, but you cant
say that just cuz someone is wealthy that they are
hypocritical. You need to have factual information about
what they do with it. Yeah, maybe they have a nice house,
but maybe they have given away a lot more than the value
of their home to some noble cause.

Again, a lot of what Jesus asked was directed at
individuals and their responsibilities, he didn't ask
you to set up a government. Then again, He also said
to give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give the rest to
God. So what that means is we shouldn't avoid paying
taxes, but we should try and get Caesar to not ask for
so much, so we can give the rest on our own for God's
purposes as individuals.

Sorry for the length of that, but, hey....At least
its in *one* post (although i think i lost the
conciseness part), and that will be it. Just wanted
to share my opinion and personal experience, and
I'm done. If you want to debate and reply, you
can, but I probably won't reply cuz it would probably
just get into another "he said, Sully said" thing (smiley),
and I'm not into that. But if you DO reply and
I don't, don't mistake the absence of a rebuttal as
an indication I can't refute what you say. Besides,
I recognize it's just opinion, can't prove it, but
it's something I *strongly* believe.

By the way, swell from Francis should be hitting
soon. I think I'll go out and surf and be *thankful*
for.....

Later,
Steve

[Surfer Bob]

SteveM <***@verizon.net> wrote:

WOAH, STEVE DUDE!!!

...But if you DO reply and
I don't, don't mistake the absence of a rebuttal as
an indication I can't refute what you say...

God could have said that.

By the way, swell from Francis should be hitting
soon. I think I'll go out and surf and be *thankful*
for.....

Amen!

Surfer Bob
Church of the Open Sky

[Mike Sullivan]

snip

Post by SteveM
My brain's about to explode. Too many posts, too many thoughts.
I'm just gonna try to be concise (yeah, right) and say things that

lol, the 'mind' concise?

No, Steve, 'the mind' works best when you open up
the dam and let it all spill out.

snip

Post by SteveM
I start to think its more about ME and what *I* can do,
rather than inspired by God, something goes wrong.
I was happy about something I had done for someone
on the boardwalk while I was riding my bike. I was feeling
so good and proud of myself, and my happy energy was
directed towards riding faster. Well, just at the height
of my prideful hapiness, my almost-brand-new chain broke
apart and I went flying uncontrolably and had to walk the
bike home. Funny thing was, as *Soon* as it broke, I
realized my fault was giving ME the credit for something,
and not *GOD*. He was keeping me in check...I had to laugh.
Again, there lots more examples of that type thing
happening to let me know its not a coincidence.

The Tin Can punished you for pride by breaking your
bike chain? Is the Tin Can really that much of a micro manager?

This is how it works. There's a church in Hays, Kansas that
is in the center of town. Across the street and parking lot
of the Piggly Wiggly, someone stuck a single wide near the
local bar and used it as a brothel.

So a tornado cuts through town and as tornadoes do,
takes out this building but not that, inexplicably vaporizes
one house while merely cracking the neighbor's window.

The tornado takes out the brothel, and skips the church.
The pastor says: Glory hallelujah, Tin Can punished those
sinners and fornicators!

Within a year, another brothel moves in same spot. A few
years later another tornado runs through town and takes out
the church, and only the church.

Glory hallelujah, the Tin Can works in mysterious ways.

Miracles are really random events, coincidences that in
taken in the millions of people thinking about things, doing
things are going to come up, but they SEEM to have a
meaning because the most amazing coincidences get reported
and are granted some sort of spiritual meaning.

Nobody reports about the thousands of times in a year
you think about your brother or sister and he/she didn't suddenly
die in a car accident a few minutes after you thought of them.

But I do it too, mom's the patron saint of convenient
parking places.

Mike

[shaft®]

Post by Mike Sullivan
Miracles are really random events, coincidences that in
taken in the millions of people thinking about things, doing
things are going to come up, but they SEEM to have a
meaning because the most amazing coincidences get reported
and are granted some sort of spiritual meaning.]

That does happen a lot but not always. If only life were
that simple, hun.

Why are you so fired up to make your point that God
doesn't exist? Ppl who believe aren't going to change
their mind. Are you trying to convince yourself?

God wubs you too, sally.

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by shaft®

Post by Mike Sullivan
Miracles are really random events, coincidences that in
taken in the millions of people thinking about things, doing
things are going to come up, but they SEEM to have a
meaning because the most amazing coincidences get reported
and are granted some sort of spiritual meaning.]

That does happen a lot but not always. If only life were
that simple, hun.

well, sweet pea, don't worry your pretty little
head about it. What say you and me go bake
some cookies together and put a smile back on
your face?

Post by shaft®
Why are you so fired up to make your point that God
doesn't exist? Ppl who believe aren't going to change
their mind. Are you trying to convince yourself?

No, no need to convince you or me. The world really
isn't a simple place, and when there are things
I can't explain, it doesn't necessarily need a made up answer.

It's really really REALLY ok with me when the Tin Can breaks
your bicycle chain for being prideful, or finds you
a parking place, or provides you with tasty waves when
you weren't really expecting them.

But even you Tin Can believers get a little nervous when
the Tin Can goes around appointing the President of the
United States, or promising 99 virgins in the afterlife if
you off yourself and a few thousand infidels along with
you.

While the Tin Canners argue over who's Tin Can is the
right Tin Can or who interprets the one true Tin Can's
words correctly, some of us don't think there's really
a tin can doing anything at all and we're not yet good
at predicting weather and earthquakes, much less prevent
immoral, dangerous, violent, and evil acts of deluded,
ignorant, superstitious people. I don't for a minute
think that atheism will solve anything, but certainly theism
hasn't.

I already admitted that I indulge myself in harmless self
delusion - frankly I find it comforting, enjoyable, or
entertaining.

Post by shaft®
God wubs you too, sally.

She does, I know cause the Tin Can told me so.

Mike

[Surfer Bob]

Post by Mike Sullivan
Nobody reports about the thousands of times in a year
you think about your brother or sister and he/she didn't suddenly
die in a car accident a few minutes after you thought of them.

Like the man said...

Post by Mike Sullivan
But I do it too, mom's the patron saint of convenient
parking places.

Hey! My Oma's been scoring everyone who honors her memory parking
spaces under tough conditions for 35 years now!

Prolly surf with your mom.

Surfer Bob

[Timothy B. Maddux]

... anyone remember the great 11th century debates about "whether
Jesus owned the clothes on his back" (in which case ANY amount of
wealth accumulation is supposed to be OK) dramatized in the novel
'The Name of the Rose'?

WHOH SURFER BOB DUDE! Like, no, but I do remember the MOVIE.
It had CHRISTIAN Slater in it. He did this hot peasant girl in
one scene. She was played by Valentina Vargas, who later went
on to star as a demon in HELLRAISER 4, you know, okay?

[Surfer Bob]

WHOH SURFER BOB DUDE! Like, no, but I do remember the MOVIE (The Name of the
Rose).

The movie had its moments (Sean Connery was OK, Tom Waits was great).
But you should really read the book. It was a best seller once- many
used copies must be floating around.

I guess Pinhead's cool, but I never followed the Hellraiser series
myself.

[Timothy B. Maddux]

Post by Surfer Bob
The movie had its moments (Sean Connery was OK, Tom Waits was great).

Tom Waits wasn't in "The Name of the Rose." I'm
guessing you have him confused with Ron PERLMAN,
who played "Salvatore" in that film.

Post by Surfer Bob
... I never followed the Hellraiser series myself.

You post about the BIBLE in alt.surfing and you don't
follow HELLRAISER? I've already pointed out how CHRISTIAN
Slater shagged this demon chick, and then you mention
Tom Waits. Tom Waits played Renfield in "Bram Stoker's
Dracula." Also in that movie was Monica BELUCCI, as
one of the VAMPIRE chicks who went after Keanu Reeves.
Not only is she Italian and totally hot, just like the
aforementioned demon chick, but also she later played
Persephone, the wife to the MEROVINGIAN, in "The Matrix
Reloaded" and "The Matrix Revolutions."

And of course we all know that the MEROVINGIAN Kings were
mythologized to be descendants of JESUS CHRIST. What's
more, Monica Belucci also played MARY MAGDALENE in THE
PASSION OF THE CHRIST. And remember RON PERLMAN? He's
the guy you confused with Tom Waits. He played a VAMPIRE
in BLADE II. He was also the star of HELLBOY. Do you
think that was a COINCIDENCE?

[Surfer Bob]

Post by Timothy B. Maddux
Tom Waits wasn't in "The Name of the Rose." I'm
guessing you have him confused with Ron PERLMAN,
who played "Salvatore" in that film.

Indeed. My bad. Boy- they sure look similar. Another friend of mine (a
big Tom Waits fan) was also fooled. But that WAS Tom peddling
nonlethal armaments in 'Mystery Men', right?

Post by Timothy B. Maddux
You post about the BIBLE in alt.surfing and you don't
follow HELLRAISER?

What can I say? I had a pretty thorough Bible upbringing, but horror
flicks are too scary for me.

Post by Timothy B. Maddux
...Not only is she Italian and totally hot...

Amen to totally hot Italian chicks! But boffing demons is bound to
lead to trouble in the long run.

Post by Timothy B. Maddux
...the aforementioned demon chick, but also she later played...
...And of course we all know that... What's more... And remember...
...He played a...was also the star of...

Your knowledge of the modern movie genre is spectacularly broad and
deep.
The thoroughness of your deconstruction and the subtlety of your
synthesis are similarly impressive.

Post by Timothy B. Maddux
...Do you think that was a COINCIDENCE?

p<0.05. I am 95% confident that it is not. But what do I know? I'm
only an honorary Christian and I don't follow Hellraiser. I'm pretty
sure that even Ah-Nold couldn't keep "End of Days" from sucking
though.

I feel safer knowing that you are on the job, senor.

Party on Tim,
Surfer Bob

[george of the jungle]

Post by Surfer Bob

...truly excellent thinking in the babble, particularly the teachings
'Sell everything you have and give to the poor'

YEAH! Rich dudes who want to use Christianity to justify their hold on
wealth have been choking on this one for thousands of years. After all
the years, they have evolved a very elaborate means of
rationalization. In some quarters Jesus (who was basically a communist
by most objective modern economic definitions)

Ironic that modern day Communists persecute(d). Christians. But
modern day communism is not about community. It is about men playing
God... Badly.

Post by Surfer Bob
has become a spiritual
and moral justification for running roughshod over human rights and
justice a thousand ways in ultimate defense of private property and
the right to amass wealth grossly surpassing that of your neighbors.

This story is repeated time after time in the OT. Then a new prophet
shows up. Unfortunately very few Popes have been prophetic. The Prods.
haven't been any better.

We were fortunate to have Pope John XXIII. He was as prophetic as any
Pope in a long time.

Post by Surfer Bob
To mix my historic fiction with my history, anyone remember the great
11th century debates about "whether Jesus owned the clothes on his
back" (in which case ANY amount of wealth accumulation is supposed to
be OK) dramatized in the novel 'The Name of the Rose'?

Did he own the cross or was it Roman property?

Post by Surfer Bob

...We have hypocrite leadership that claims to be Christian but serves Mammon.

Now THERE's a great soundbyte! You won't hear that one in the national
political debate this fall, now will you?

Why doesn't the Christian Left get coverage? Did they give their
time/money away to the poor so they can't pay for TV ads?

Post by Surfer Bob

...God is the very essence of life,
existence and morality, not some old Semitic guy in the clouds.

But it doesn't surprise me at all that a religious book written by a
bunch of old Semitic guys portrays God that way. I marvel at how long
folks have been willing to cling to that image of God while remaining
so noncritical of the cultural influences that shaped it.

They paint him their color and put their clothes on him. Look at art.

Post by Surfer Bob
Part of what we're down to this election year is a conflict between
the values of those 2800-year-old Semitic guys (like homophobia,
misogyny, and indiscriminant, blood-soaked, scorched-earth justice)
and 0-200 year old American values (like equal protection before the
law). When push comes to shove, I stand by the modern American values.
And I expect my President to.

Where did those American values originate? What boggles my mind is
that folks call themselves Christian and stop their biblical thinking
slightly after Genesis.

Post by Surfer Bob

Post by george of the jungle
PS maybe you should drop in on a Quaker meeting.

Those guys are really cool in a thousand ways, but disappoint me in
having ZERO music program. Among my fondest childhood memories of
church are listening to jamming Bach fugues played with feeling on a
nice pipe organ.

Now that's close to the voice of God. My best work comes when I
listen to Bach. My mind opens up and my awareness expands. For me,
Bach is better than any drug. It has been a long time since I have
listened to Bach played live on the pipe organ.

_g

[Surfer Bob]

...The God of the NT is people sharing and caring for
eachother. The problem with organized religion, however, is that it
loses track of the first and great commandment which is the foundation
for all the law and the prophets.

And that would be... what? "You shall love the lord your God with all
your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind."

All Christian churches I've been to or heard of pay homage to this
commandment. It was, after all, a direct order from Jesus quoted in 3
of the 4 gospels. But many get very far afield when they try to apply
it to real world situations. The Devil's in the details, as they say.

Or did you mean, "the fruit of THAT tree over there shalt thou NOT
eat. Don't even THINK about eating the fruit from THAT tree. Nope- not
rom THAT one with the yummy-looking fruit. Any other one is OK, but
don't you even touch the fruit on THAT one. Not EVEN when you think
I'm not looking. Right? Right! OK, I'm going out for a while. I'll be
back after dinner. *Be good*, you two..."

If that one's anything more than an ancient allegory about the origin
of consciousness, I'll eat my wetsuit.

As for the bike chain breaking, it's a good story and is obviously
personally meaningful to you, but...
I am quite sure that the more an imaginative and creative person comes
to believe that "there are no coincidences" the more "meaningful
connections" they will "discover" (imagine or create?) from the
infinite minutiae of everyday life. I would expect such a person to
see quite a few of those.

I find your assertion that "God will micro-manage your life if you let
him/ want him to" appealing, but inconsistent with my experience of
God. Whatever works for you is great for you, but my experience of God
is that (s)he is very shy. Does not return calls. Does not give clear
guidance when I ask. Avoids cameras like the plague. Tends not to
micro-manage the lives of others in obvious situations where a little
micro-managing could save many innocent lives. In fact, acts quite a
bit more like an entity that doesn't exist than like one who is eager
to be known and help out.

Your actual mileage may vary.

Have a great weekend,
Surfer Bob

[SteveM]

Surfer Bob wrote:

<snipped>

You're testing me, aren't ya? <insert smiley face here>

Later,
Steve

[george of the jungle]

Post by Surfer Bob

...The God of the NT is people sharing and caring for
eachother. The problem with organized religion, however, is that it
loses track of the first and great commandment which is the foundation
for all the law and the prophets.

And that would be... what? "You shall love the lord your God with all
your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind."
All Christian churches I've been to or heard of pay homage to this
commandment. It was, after all, a direct order from Jesus quoted in 3
of the 4 gospels. But many get very far afield when they try to apply
it to real world situations. The Devil's in the details, as they say.

Well the tricky part that follows directly from the first commandment
is loving your neighbor. It's amazing that some people think that
they can love God and kill a few hundred children at the same time.
It's also incredible that some people think that they can love God and
rape the planet or some part of it at the same time.

Post by Surfer Bob
Or did you mean, "the fruit of THAT tree over there shalt thou NOT
eat. Don't even THINK about eating the fruit from THAT tree. Nope- not
rom THAT one with the yummy-looking fruit. Any other one is OK, but
don't you even touch the fruit on THAT one. Not EVEN when you think
I'm not looking. Right? Right! OK, I'm going out for a while. I'll be
back after dinner. *Be good*, you two..."
If that one's anything more than an ancient allegory about the origin
of consciousness, I'll eat my wetsuit.

The literalists put that movie in reverse. Man was conscious of God
then fell from grace when he served his own interests. They believe in
devolution, not evolution. They believe in a God who takes convenient
trips. Why didn't God drop a coconut on Satan's (the snake) head?

Post by Surfer Bob
As for the bike chain breaking, it's a good story and is obviously
personally meaningful to you, but...
I am quite sure that the more an imaginative and creative person comes
to believe that "there are no coincidences" the more "meaningful
connections" they will "discover" (imagine or create?) from the
infinite minutiae of everyday life. I would expect such a person to
see quite a few of those.
I find your assertion that "God will micro-manage your life if you let
him/ want him to" appealing, but inconsistent with my experience of
God. Whatever works for you is great for you, but my experience of God
is that (s)he is very shy. Does not return calls. Does not give clear
guidance when I ask. Avoids cameras like the plague. Tends not to
micro-manage the lives of others in obvious situations where a little
micro-managing could save many innocent lives. In fact, acts quite a
bit more like an entity that doesn't exist than like one who is eager
to be known and help out.
Your actual mileage may vary.

Many of the parents of those kids in Russia were certainly praying
hard. Why did so many innocent little children have to die? Why
would God spend his time on a brake chain and let little children
suffer and die?

_g

[SteveM]

Post by george of the jungle
Many of the parents of those kids in Russia were certainly praying
hard. Why did so many innocent little children have to die? Why
would God spend his time on a brake chain and let little children
suffer and die?

Because we have free will. And evil also has free will.
I think the greatest purpose of evil is to create doubt
about the existence of God. Unfortunately, for many people,
it often succeeds in that purpose.

The Bible never says it's gonna be roses from here on out;
actually it says the opposite for awhile.

Later,
Steve

So as not to continue being too off topic: Francis' effects have
certainly arrived. Waist to chest-high sets, with a few
bigger, but a little crumbly and short period. Disorganization
made it a little hard to get good rides, but it was worth it
just to get something a little bigger than we've had in awhile.
I'm gonna try and get motivated for a rare dp since the tide
should be right, and hopefully they're be a classic morning
glass-off awaiting. Plus, with it being labor day weekend,
I'm sure the afternoon is gonna be crowded with late-season
kookdom.

[george of the jungle]

Post by SteveM

Post by george of the jungle
Many of the parents of those kids in Russia were certainly praying
hard. Why did so many innocent little children have to die? Why
would God spend his time on a brake chain and let little children
suffer and die?

Because we have free will.

The babies killed were too young to have free will in the adult sense.
And as soon as God starts messing with your bike chain he is limiting
your free will. You can't logically say that God answers your prayers
if you pray hard enough but he lets innocent little children die
because you have free will. Maybe I didn't pray hard enough for those
children but I know their families did.

And where was free will with The Flood? That kinda put a damper on
free will.

Post by SteveM
And evil also has free will.
I think the greatest purpose of evil is to create doubt
about the existence of God.

So God doesn't want us to believe he exists?
Or you think God is testing us? He let's little children suffer and
die so that our faith can be tested like Job's? How is that consistent
with a loving God? Why doesn't God just go out and kick some evil
ass? Thousands and thousands could have been saved and we would have
had more freedom and free will if God had fried Sadam's ass 30 years
ago with a well placed bolt of lightning or a stray bullet. And more
people would believe.

Post by SteveM
So as not to continue being too off topic: Francis' effects have
certainly arrived. Waist to chest-high sets, with a few
bigger, but a little crumbly and short period. Disorganization
made it a little hard to get good rides, but it was worth it
just to get something a little bigger than we've had in awhile.
I'm gonna try and get motivated for a rare dp since the tide
should be right, and hopefully they're be a classic morning
glass-off awaiting. Plus, with it being labor day weekend,
I'm sure the afternoon is gonna be crowded with late-season
kookdom.

Good to hear you are blessed with waves. Enjoy. Sept is usually low
surf month here.

_g

[shaft®]

Post by george of the jungle
So God doesn't want us to believe he exists?
Or you think God is testing us? He let's little children suffer and
die so that our faith can be tested like Job's? How is that consistent
with a loving God?

Lame. On the backdrop of eternity yours or anybody's little
brief stint of tenantship on this planet is a spec of sand. You
don't know the mind of God or even whats going to happen
5 minutes from now.

If you have any children they look at you the same way. You
made them take a nap in the middle of the day. You're cruel
and uncaring... They scream, kick and curse you like you are
doing now.

Post by george of the jungle
Why doesn't God just go out and kick some evil
ass? Thousands and thousands could have been saved and we would have
had more freedom and free will if God had fried Sadam's ass 30 years
ago with a well placed bolt of lightning or a stray bullet. And more
people would believe.

Ask God. Or have you taken that role?

[george of the jungle]

Post by shaft®

Post by george of the jungle
So God doesn't want us to believe he exists?
Or you think God is testing us? He let's little children suffer and
die so that our faith can be tested like Job's? How is that consistent
with a loving God?

Lame.

I think that the God is testing us argument is lame. It makes the
universe revolve around us.

Post by shaft®
On the backdrop of eternity yours or anybody's little
brief stint of tenantship on this planet is a spec of sand.

Agreed w this sentence.

Post by shaft®
You
don't know the mind of God or even whats going to happen
5 minutes from now.

Agreed. But in your analogy below you appear to think that you do.

Post by shaft®
If you have any children they look at you the same way. You
made them take a nap in the middle of the day.

Those little children don't have free will...and in your analogy
neither do we.

Post by shaft®
You're cruel
and uncaring... They scream, kick and curse you like you are
doing now.

It seems to me that you do a lot more cursing and screaming around
here than most folks.....Note: I am pointing out that I find the
concept of a God that creates suffering and evil to test us a very
human one with which I disagree.

Post by shaft®

Post by george of the jungle
Why doesn't God just go out and kick some evil
ass? Thousands and thousands could have been saved and we would have
had more freedom and free will if God had fried Sadam's ass 30 years
ago with a well placed bolt of lightning or a stray bullet. And more
people would believe.

Ask God. Or have you taken that role?

Naw, another guy took that job. There's a nice guy who prayed real
hard and God told him to kick Sadam's ass. Damned if he didn't do it.

_g

[shaft®]

Post by george of the jungle
It seems to me that you do a lot more cursing and screaming around
here than most folks.....Note: I am pointing out that I find the
concept of a God that creates suffering and evil to test us a very
human one with which I disagree.

I agree. God doesn't create suffering.

Post by george of the jungle
Naw, another guy took that job. There's a nice guy who prayed real
hard and God told him to kick Sadam's ass. Damned if he didn't do it.

Maybe thats the way it happened? I think the US is slowly
on it's way out of the world scene at least militarily...

[SteveM]

Post by george of the jungle

Post by SteveM
Because we have free will.

The babies killed were too young to have free will in the adult sense.
And as soon as God starts messing with your bike chain he is limiting
your free will. You can't logically say that God answers your prayers
if you pray hard enough but he lets innocent little children die
because you have free will. Maybe I didn't pray hard enough for those
children but I know their families did.

Did you not read anything I typed? I was referring to the free
will of the kooks who did this, not the children. Didn't I also
mention that the Bible said stuff like this would go on??
As for praying, we always get an answer, it just might not
be the answer we were looking for or expecting; might not even
be able to recognize it. As for people who just suddenly start
praying in a crisis. It doesn't work like that. You've gotta
sincerely believe before you can pray as an afterthought and
expect an answer. Gets back to free will. You can choose to
believe or not, but don't expect to be heard if you don't.
Think of it this way: Although I don't think God is as
spiteful as this (it's more *your* choice again), it might be
a good example: Let's say someone is the biggest jerk
you ever met. They stab you in the back, they talk bad
about you, they pretend you don't exist, etc. They just do
everything to show how much they don't like you. Then,
one day, they realize you have something they want or that can
help them. They suddenly become the nicest friend in the
world and do whatever to try and get you to give them
what they need. You see right through the act.
What are you going to do? If, however, you realize
it's not just a one time act, and you know they have
truly turned around, you'd probably help them out.

Post by george of the jungle
And where was free will with The Flood? That kinda put a damper on
free will.

We have free will, but we gotta face the consequences of
that free will sometime. If I choose to jump off a cliff,
that's a bad choice, but I made it, and I'm gonna pay for it.
According to that story, everyone chose to drop off a cliff
except for those in the ark.

Post by george of the jungle

Post by SteveM
And evil also has free will.
I think the greatest purpose of evil is to create doubt
about the existence of God.

So God doesn't want us to believe he exists?

No, *evil* doesn't want us to believe He exits.

Post by george of the jungle
Or you think God is testing us? He let's little children suffer and
die so that our faith can be tested like Job's? How is that consistent
with a loving God? Why doesn't God just go out and kick some evil
ass? Thousands and thousands could have been saved and we would have
had more freedom and free will if God had fried Sadam's ass 30 years
ago with a well placed bolt of lightning or a stray bullet. And more
people would believe.

Free will is completely in line with a loving God. Besides,
He already has given us the answer demonstrating is ultimate love,
voluntarily giving up His only son. If that's not a demonstration,
of ultimate love and sacrifice, I don't know what is;
I know I couldn't do it.

Besides, getting back to evil. Evil has free will to do it.
Tragedy and death and whatever is what Evil does, not God.
What God can do once it it over is somehow use it for some
good purpose, maybe something like increasing the resolve in people to
try and prevent something like that happening in the future.

<sigh> just as I predicted. This is getting tiresome
again. Think I've shown I could go on and on and back and
forth with this, but I'm over it. You have free will to
make your choice, so I don't want this to start appearing
like I'm trying to shove it down people's throat. That's
why I was reluctant to make *any* replies in the first place,
but some things I just couldn't let go by.
I think I *really* am done now, though, so you (or anyone else)
have the floor and last word if ya want it .

Post by george of the jungle

Post by SteveM
So as not to continue being too off topic: Francis' effects have
certainly arrived. Waist to chest-high sets, with a few
bigger, but a little crumbly and short period. Disorganization
made it a little hard to get good rides, but it was worth it
just to get something a little bigger than we've had in awhile.
I'm gonna try and get motivated for a rare dp since the tide
should be right, and hopefully they're be a classic morning
glass-off awaiting. Plus, with it being labor day weekend,
I'm sure the afternoon is gonna be crowded with late-season
kookdom.

Good to hear you are blessed with waves. Enjoy. Sept is usually low
surf month here.

The waves are crankin. Still a little unorganized, but definitely
some fun, makeable waves. I'm actually in taking a break from having to
deal with the strong currents and short period waves, but will be
ready for the afternoon rides soon. It's been cool because the seas are
rough enough to keep the crowds out of the water, and we can surf areas
that'd normally be banned at this time, but the red flags are up.
Va. Beach usually sucks for surf regulations, but one thing going for
them is they let you out during the red flag times.

As a GP wave prediction update: Seeing Ivan coming up is making me
think GP may have waves after all. I predicted a flat spell (or no
better than waist-high) between Francis and Ivan cuz of acts of tyranny
by the Infamous III organizers of GP, and it may still be that way if
Ivan takes the more southerly track into the Caribbean and Gulf as some
models are suggesting. However, if it doesn't and GP gets better than
predicted waves, I have an out: It's all Skipper's fault for external
intrusion in the area of predicting waves for GP!

The human intervention from all sides in this year's prediction has
definitely made it a very difficult one. Dr. Gray would have lots more
respect for my surf and hurricane predictions if he knew what
I had to deal with!

Later,
Steve

[george of the jungle]

Post by SteveM

Post by george of the jungle
And where was free will with The Flood? That kinda put a damper on
free will.

We have free will, but we gotta face the consequences of
that free will sometime. If I choose to jump off a cliff,
that's a bad choice, but I made it, and I'm gonna pay for it.
According to that story, everyone chose to drop off a cliff
except for those in the ark.

In that story many innocents - children - did not chose to drown. They
just did not count. They were fish food.

Yep... we are talking past eachother. The problems of evil and the
suffering of the innocent have been written about and discussed for
milennia. We aren't going to resolve them.

So back to surf......

Post by SteveM

Post by george of the jungle

Post by SteveM
So as not to continue being too off topic: Francis' effects have
certainly arrived. Waist to chest-high sets, with a few
bigger, but a little crumbly and short period. Disorganization
made it a little hard to get good rides, but it was worth it
just to get something a little bigger than we've had in awhile.
I'm gonna try and get motivated for a rare dp since the tide
should be right, and hopefully they're be a classic morning
glass-off awaiting. Plus, with it being labor day weekend,
I'm sure the afternoon is gonna be crowded with late-season
kookdom.

The long period swell from Frances came and went. The fetch has been
at the wrong angle for days for most of the EC and the Bahamas have
blocked the main swell direction. So what you get is short period
stuff.

Post by SteveM

Post by george of the jungle
Good to hear you are blessed with waves. Enjoy. Sept is usually low
surf month here.

The waves are crankin. Still a little unorganized, but definitely
some fun, makeable waves. I'm actually in taking a break from having to
deal with the strong currents and short period waves, but will be
ready for the afternoon rides soon. It's been cool because the seas are
rough enough to keep the crowds out of the water, and we can surf areas
that'd normally be banned at this time, but the red flags are up.
Va. Beach usually sucks for surf regulations, but one thing going for
them is they let you out during the red flag times.
As a GP wave prediction update: Seeing Ivan coming up is making me
think GP may have waves after all. I predicted a flat spell (or no
better than waist-high) between Francis and Ivan cuz of acts of tyranny
by the Infamous III organizers of GP, and it may still be that way if
Ivan takes the more southerly track into the Caribbean and Gulf as some
models are suggesting. However, if it doesn't and GP gets better than
predicted waves, I have an out: It's all Skipper's fault for external
intrusion in the area of predicting waves for GP!

Yep plenty more Atlantic action to come. The ocean is still hot.
Especially the Gulf .

_g

[Diablo]

Post by SteveM
As a GP wave prediction update: Seeing Ivan coming up is making me
think GP may have waves after all. I predicted a flat spell (or no
better than waist-high) between Francis and Ivan cuz of acts of tyranny
by the Infamous III organizers of GP, and it may still be that way if
Ivan takes the more southerly track into the Caribbean and Gulf as some
models are suggesting. However, if it doesn't and GP gets better than
predicted waves, I have an out: It's all Skipper's fault for external
intrusion in the area of predicting waves for GP!

W I N D S H E A R

Post by SteveM
Later,
Steve

the curse has been initiated...........

[SteveM]

Post by Diablo

Post by SteveM
As a GP wave prediction update: Seeing Ivan coming up is making me
think GP may have waves after all. I predicted a flat spell (or no
better than waist-high) between Francis and Ivan cuz of acts of tyranny
by the Infamous III organizers of GP, and it may still be that way if
Ivan takes the more southerly track into the Caribbean and Gulf as some
models are suggesting. However, if it doesn't and GP gets better than
predicted waves, I have an out: It's all Skipper's fault for external
intrusion in the area of predicting waves for GP!

W I N D S H E A R
the curse has been initiated...........

Do you all not get it! Here I am, trying to give my own
curse to GP so they will turn from their tyrannical ways,
and you west-coasters keep interfering! The more you
wish flatness upon GP, the more it will move closer
and closer to being outstanding.

It's kinda like when siblings fight and pick on each
other and ya'd think they despise each other, but
then some outsider comes in and badmouths or hurts
one of the brothers. At that point, ya better watch
out for the other bro, cuz he's gonna pummel you
for dis'n his blood. Ya know??

Later,
Steve

PS...the late afternoon/evening session saw some smaller
waves (waist to stomach), but *much* cleaner and workable
than it has been. Best wave: Had a stomach, maybe even
bigger peeler (well, comparatively it was a peeler) come
in. I was right on the peak and taking off as late
as possible. I thought for sure I was gonna get dumped,
but I made the drop, bottom turn, and cut back to get
a nice snap off the shoulder that had bent around to
come in at a sharp angle to me. It was so schaweet!
On the drop and bottom turn as I rode along the face,
I don't think I've ever gone so fast on a wave of that size before.
It was definitely awesome. And to have it near the last
wave of the day as the orange sky faded to twilight, it
was even more special.

Surf on.

[SKIPPER]

Post by SteveM

Post by Diablo

Post by SteveM
As a GP wave prediction update: Seeing Ivan coming up is making me
think GP may have waves after all. I predicted a flat spell (or no
better than waist-high) between Francis and Ivan cuz of acts of tyranny
by the Infamous III organizers of GP, and it may still be that way if
Ivan takes the more southerly track into the Caribbean and Gulf as some
models are suggesting. However, if it doesn't and GP gets better than
predicted waves, I have an out: It's all Skipper's fault for external
intrusion in the area of predicting waves for GP!

W I N D S H E A R
the curse has been initiated...........

Do you all not get it! Here I am, trying to give my own
curse to GP so they will turn from their tyrannical ways,
and you west-coasters keep interfering! The more you
wish flatness upon GP, the more it will move closer
and closer to being outstanding.
It's kinda like when siblings fight and pick on each
other and ya'd think they despise each other, but
then some outsider comes in and badmouths or hurts
one of the brothers. At that point, ya better watch
out for the other bro, cuz he's gonna pummel you
for dis'n his blood. Ya know??

It's gonna be an all-time hurricane season. Foon is getting nervous just
thinking about DOH outer banks - which is what's happening now.

But the hurricane season will come crashing to an end just in time for,
well, for GP2004.

-PA

PS More honestly - Ivan's current track looks like there may be surf
next weekend.

[george of the jungle]

Post by SKIPPER

Post by SteveM

Post by Diablo

Post by SteveM
As a GP wave prediction update: Seeing Ivan coming up is making me
think GP may have waves after all. I predicted a flat spell (or no
better than waist-high) between Francis and Ivan cuz of acts of tyranny
by the Infamous III organizers of GP, and it may still be that way if
Ivan takes the more southerly track into the Caribbean and Gulf as some
models are suggesting. However, if it doesn't and GP gets better than
predicted waves, I have an out: It's all Skipper's fault for external
intrusion in the area of predicting waves for GP!

W I N D S H E A R
the curse has been initiated...........

Do you all not get it! Here I am, trying to give my own
curse to GP so they will turn from their tyrannical ways,
and you west-coasters keep interfering! The more you
wish flatness upon GP, the more it will move closer
and closer to being outstanding.
It's kinda like when siblings fight and pick on each
other and ya'd think they despise each other, but
then some outsider comes in and badmouths or hurts
one of the brothers. At that point, ya better watch
out for the other bro, cuz he's gonna pummel you
for dis'n his blood. Ya know??

It's gonna be an all-time hurricane season. Foon is getting nervous just
thinking about DOH outer banks - which is what's happening now.

Yep, the Atlantic is doing things we have never seen before.
**HURRICANE IVAN DISCUSSION NUMBER 14
**NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL
**5 PM EDT SUN SEP 05 2004
**LATEST SATELLITE IMAGERY INDICATES THAT IVAN HAS INTENSIFIED AND
**MAXIMUM WINDS ARE ESTIMATED TO BE NEAR 110 KT. AS NOTED
**EARLIER...IT IS UNPRECEDENTED TO HAVE A HURRICANE THIS STRONG AT
**SUCH A LOW LATITUDE IN THE ATLANTIC BASIN.
The shouting is NHC's.

Post by SKIPPER
But the hurricane season will come crashing to an end just in time for,
well, for GP2004.
-PA
PS More honestly - Ivan's current track looks like there may be surf
next weekend.

The track forecast isn't ideal for OB surf but with Ivan's present
intensity *and it hasn't stopped intensifying* they will likely get
something if only side scrapings of swell. If the track goes right of
the forecast - north of the islands and the storm stays intense, the
surf will go off.

_g

[SKIPPER]

Post by george of the jungle
The track forecast isn't ideal for OB surf but with Ivan's present
intensity *and it hasn't stopped intensifying* they will likely get
something if only side scrapings of swell. If the track goes right of
the forecast - north of the islands and the storm stays intense, the
surf will go off.

Track has changed.

South of Cuba.

Out of the OB swell window in 36 hours - a good 3 days
before the GP starts.

Following Ivan - W I N D S H E A R - no tropical activity
over the GP week.

In other news, the same time, we are forecast to get a shot
of Aleutian Juice, the second this year already (unless you
count the first round as two - really two lows running over each
other).

That'll make 3 of the last 4 years that have had pathetic surf.

-PA

[george of the jungle]

Post by SKIPPER

Post by george of the jungle
The track forecast isn't ideal for OB surf but with Ivan's present
intensity *and it hasn't stopped intensifying* they will likely get
something if only side scrapings of swell. If the track goes right of
the forecast - north of the islands and the storm stays intense, the
surf will go off.

Track has changed.
South of Cuba.
Out of the OB swell window in 36 hours - a good 3 days
before the GP starts.

Yep. No Ivan surf for the NC coast this weekend. Our Tejas boys
might start getting excited. That puppy Ivan could slip into the Gulf
which is as hot as a Vegas streetwalker in July.

Post by SKIPPER
Following Ivan - W I N D S H E A R - no tropical activity
over the GP week.

Nothing in sight...

Post by SKIPPER
In other news, the same time, we are forecast to get a shot
of Aleutian Juice, the second this year already (unless you
count the first round as two - really two lows running over each
other).
That'll make 3 of the last 4 years that have had pathetic surf.

They take what they can. All that planning is what really screws 'em.

_g

[Tom Tweed]

Post by Surfer Bob
I suggest that one or more of these pictures go there. Maybe add
this whole piece to the AShub, if folks deem it worthy.

It's worthy, Bob.

Thx,
TT
---------------------------------
Tom Tweed mailto:***@ucsd.edu
La Jolla, CA, USA or ***@san.rr.com
"I have never been into Fashion, but I am totally into Style."
-- Kurt "da Mellow Cat" Ledterman
---------------------------------

[r***@rodndtube.com]

Post by Tom Tweed

Post by Surfer Bob
I suggest that one or more of these pictures go there. Maybe add
this whole piece to the AShub, if folks deem it worthy.

It's worthy, Bob.
Thx,
TT
---------------------------------
"I have never been into Fashion, but I am totally into Style."
-- Kurt "da Mellow Cat" Ledterman
---------------------------------

I will add them to the Close Encounters page when my FTP is up and running
again.

--------------------------------------
Rod Rodgers
Bring on the SPF!
http://www.rodNDtube.com/

[SurffOhio]

Post by Mike Sullivan
Still, I can't shake the feeling that
it's a 'disease' the privileged, well fed, and have
choices seem to obtain.

Sully, depression isn't a "yuppie state of mind." I don't
know what causes it, but it seems to be a condition with
very similar and debilitating characteristics in each individual.

Surff

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by SurffOhio

Post by Mike Sullivan
Still, I can't shake the feeling that
it's a 'disease' the privileged, well fed, and have
choices seem to obtain.

Sully, depression isn't a "yuppie state of mind." I don't
know what causes it, but it seems to be a condition with
very similar and debilitating characteristics in each individual.

Given that I am the 'designated dickhead' on this
thread I may as well play my part.

I went to the doctor yesterday realizing something
must be wrong with me for lacking compassion for
people who otherwise have everything going for them,
every choice, every opportunity, to pyschologically
and physiologically fold up and check out.

After doing some tests, it's was shown to me that
I have this condition called auto-animi-empath immunity.
It's an unfortunate physiological condition that makes
me blind toward the indulgence of certain human illnesses.
The testing showed I reacted properly toward people
who were physically or mentally disabled, socially disadvantaged,
or simply victims of accident or unfortunate circumstances.
I failed badly when presented with images of middle aged
men and women unable to make themselves happy with the
new chick girlfriend, Harley, or shopping sprees.

Don't blame me, I'm the victim here too!

I'm on a treatment program of heavy drugs and counselling
so that I too can learn to embrace and indulge in causeless
despair.

Mike

[george of the jungle]

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:16:27 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

Post by Mike Sullivan
After doing some tests, it's was shown to me that
I have this condition called auto-animi-empath immunity.
It's an unfortunate physiological condition that makes
me blind toward the indulgence of certain human illnesses.
The testing showed I reacted properly toward people
who were physically or mentally disabled, socially disadvantaged,
or simply victims of accident or unfortunate circumstances.
I failed badly when presented with images of middle aged
men and women unable to make themselves happy with the
new chick girlfriend, Harley, or shopping sprees.
Don't blame me, I'm the victim here too!
I'm on a treatment program of heavy drugs and counselling
so that I too can learn to embrace and indulge in causeless
despair.

He didn't satisfy the young chick which made him feel older than ever.
You screw around with imaginary young chicks so they're always
satisfied. If you don't believe, it helps to have the right delusions.

How's that Harley you just bought?

_g

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by george of the jungle
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:16:27 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

snip

Post by george of the jungle

Post by Mike Sullivan
I'm on a treatment program of heavy drugs and counselling
so that I too can learn to embrace and indulge in causeless
despair.

snip

Post by george of the jungle
You screw around with imaginary young chicks so they're always
satisfied. If you don't believe, it helps to have the right delusions.

Kira is as real as the Tin Can, and doesn't go around
breaking my bicycle chain!

Post by george of the jungle
How's that Harley you just bought?

lol. what an awesome marketing scheme that is. Yuppie stockbrokers
in goattees with tats and colors! I got to hand it to them, better
to dress up the old bag in leather chaps with the sagging boobs
coming out the side of the vest then to go out and hire a new chick
and sit her in the other seat of the 'vette.

Keener knows my bride would love me to get a bike
some day, but that's way down my list after taking up
golf.

Mike

[SteveM]

Post by Mike Sullivan
Kira is as real as the Tin Can, and doesn't go around
breaking my bicycle chain!

OK, I guess since this isn't a *direct* reply to my
other post, I'm free to interject? <insert smiley face here>
I mentioned that example cuz I thought it was the most
humorous. I see you got the humor out of it, but not sure
it was the kind I had in mind! <another smiley>.
Besides, I also said there were many other examples, but
maybe more serious or heavy, so I didn't want to make
it *too* boring. To answer your question, Yes, He *can,*
but doesn't always, micromanage like that. You may think
that's incomprehensible, but isn't that exactly what God
is; incomprehensible? After all, if we knew everything
about God and knew all the answers, *we* would be God.

Also as I alluded to, the more you are willing to listen
and be open, the more you recognize the micromanagement,
and the more the micromanagement can be given, no
matter how many people are involved. You begin
to have a very close relationship. Think of it like
learning to surf. You surf and you surf and you surf...
You begin to recognize just what to do to let the wave propel
you and give you a great ride. You know what to do and
what moves to make. After awhile, it's just like you're
communicating with the wave, and have an actual relationship.
But ya make one mistake, one miscommunication and, WHUMP!
you wipeout. You paid for the mistake. You've been micromanaged
by that huge wave that lots of other people were on, or could
have been on, at the same time and either made it, didn't, or didn't
even try cuz they were scared, or didn't believe they could surf it.

Surf on.

Later,
Steve

[george of the jungle]

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:02:28 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

Post by Mike Sullivan

Post by george of the jungle
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:16:27 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

snip

Post by george of the jungle

Post by Mike Sullivan
I'm on a treatment program of heavy drugs and counselling
so that I too can learn to embrace and indulge in causeless
despair.

snip

Post by george of the jungle
You screw around with imaginary young chicks so they're always
satisfied. If you don't believe, it helps to have the right delusions.

Kira is as real as the Tin Can, and doesn't go around
breaking my bicycle chain!

It is good to be able to find meaning in a broken bike chain after you
just went ***@t|||

But the suffering of the innocent becomes a small logical problem.

Post by Mike Sullivan

Post by george of the jungle
How's that Harley you just bought?

lol. what an awesome marketing scheme that is. Yuppie stockbrokers
in goattees with tats and colors! I got to hand it to them, better
to dress up the old bag in leather chaps with the sagging boobs
coming out the side of the vest

Ya know I'm learning to appreciate the charm of boobs oozing out from
the side. A woman with experience and no shame! There's something
about the real thing as compared to rigid insensate balloons that look
like they'd burst if you stuck em with a pin.

And the guys with big beer bellies who jut them forward proudly
alongside their flags. I'm proud to be an American. Have another beer.

Post by Mike Sullivan
then to go out and hire a new chick
and sit her in the other seat of the 'vette.

That would be depressing although no call for rash measures.

Post by Mike Sullivan
Keener knows my bride would love me to get a bike
some day, but that's way down my list after taking up
golf.
Mike

Shit, Mike, let her get the bike and ride and you grab her by the
boobs from behind and hang on for dear life.

_g

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by george of the jungle
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:02:28 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

snip

Post by george of the jungle

Post by Mike Sullivan
Keener knows my bride would love me to get a bike
some day, but that's way down my list after taking up
golf.
Mike

Shit, Mike, let her get the bike and ride and you grab her by the
boobs from behind and hang on for dear life.

hey! she can get herself a big chopper anytime she
wants, I'm the one that doesn't want one

I scored on a great find a couple weeks back, $40
for a 60s era beach cruiser with a fake gas tank
and everything!

[SurffOhio]

Post by Mike Sullivan
I went to the doctor yesterday realizing something
must be wrong with me for lacking compassion for
people who otherwise have everything going for them,
every choice, every opportunity, to pyschologically
and physiologically fold up and check out.

Why would you do that, sugar boots? You don't feel that
what you have is bothersome. Big, big difference.
People with a manic depression problem feel completely
alienated from others because they feel like they've got
leprosy or something horrible like that.

Anyway, what exactly is the point here? From exchanging
communication with you, I know you aren't some uncaring vulture
sitting on a tree limb overlooking alt.s. I pretty well know
that you care about other's, Sully. Is there some disagreement here?

Surff

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by SurffOhio

Post by Mike Sullivan
I went to the doctor yesterday realizing something
must be wrong with me for lacking compassion for
people who otherwise have everything going for them,
every choice, every opportunity, to pyschologically
and physiologically fold up and check out.

Why would you do that, sugar boots? You don't feel that
what you have is bothersome. Big, big difference.
People with a manic depression problem feel completely
alienated from others because they feel like they've got
leprosy or something horrible like that.

they sure do I've seen it firsthand

Post by SurffOhio
Anyway, what exactly is the point here? From exchanging
communication with you, I know you aren't some uncaring vulture
sitting on a tree limb overlooking alt.s. I pretty well know
that you care about other's, Sully. Is there some disagreement here?

No, it's AS and I'm the designated dick on this thread

I'll let you know that none of the people who are close to me
who've suffered from clinical depression are very impressed
with my POV either, that doesn't mean I haven't cared
for them and done everything I could

I actually have a long answer for this, but don't have
time to express

good surfing!

[Ljswahine2]

Post by george of the jungle
On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:07:38 -0700, "Mike Sullivan"

snip

Post by george of the jungle
depression is a dark beast that can pull you under. Bipolars can
swing so hard that they want to die. Many do.

Mike writes:

true. We've had this discussion, and I often lose
this argument. Still, I can't shake the feeling that
it's a 'disease' the privileged, well fed, and have
choices seem to obtain. >>

Those may be the ones with the more public diagnosis. A lot of the homeless in
nyc ended up on the streets when the mental hospitals closed down. Also they
are the ones lost in the shuffle when their disease leaves them unable to work
and maintain a residence, etc. Don't know what happened to Will, but good story
Bob.

ljs

[msdII]

Post by Mike Sullivan

Post by Surfer Bob
An atmospheric sketch (with pictures!) of a surf session with Will
Borgeson twenty years ago this month

sorry. I don't respect suicide. He had kids, grown, yes, but people
he hurt in that selfish act. If somehow that had gone south I can
understand that sort of despair. That's something time and effort
can heal, not undo, but heal.
I'm prolly missing some information somewhere, maybe he had
a terminal disease that was taking him anyway, that he wanted
to off himself before he became not himself. That I support.
Otherwise, shove me off the bandwagon. Live your life.
Mike

Isn't Borgenson the guy that hated Dora because he (Borgenson) didn't
know how to play the Malibu rules. If Dora was reading this he would
say, "tough totems".

stewie stugats

















9Borgenson

[Gleshna]

Post by Mike Sullivan
I don't respect suicide.

Some professionals believe that suicide is or can be an aggressive act.

Every morning when a white man in America looks in the mirror, they are looking
at someone that might murder them.


Gleshna

Overheard at 2004 ESA Northeastern Regional Surf Contest:

"F%&*, I got beaten by a guy from the Great Lakes!"

[shaft®]

Post by Mike Sullivan
sorry. I don't respect suicide.

I don't think he's asking you to respect suicide.

Post by Mike Sullivan
He had kids, grown, yes, but people
he hurt in that selfish act. If somehow that had gone south I can
understand that sort of despair. That's something time and effort
can heal, not undo, but heal.
I'm prolly missing some information somewhere, maybe he had
a terminal disease that was taking him anyway, that he wanted
to off himself before he became not himself. That I support.

Thats just another shade of selfishness.

Some ppl have mental problems other ppl have physical problems.

[Mike Sullivan]

Post by shaft®
Thats just another shade of selfishness.

true.

[shaft®]

true.

But I know how you feel. I couldn't walk for 2 weeks.

Feels like the end of the world!

[george of the jungle]

Post by shaft®

Post by Mike Sullivan
sorry. I don't respect suicide.

I don't think he's asking you to respect suicide.

Post by Mike Sullivan
He had kids, grown, yes, but people
he hurt in that selfish act. If somehow that had gone south I can
understand that sort of despair. That's something time and effort
can heal, not undo, but heal.
I'm prolly missing some information somewhere, maybe he had
a terminal disease that was taking him anyway, that he wanted
to off himself before he became not himself. That I support.

Thats just another shade of selfishness.

Sometimes it spares friends and loved ones agony. Being kept barely
alive by a machine for a month before dying is good for no one.

Post by shaft®
Some ppl have mental problems other ppl have physical problems.

And in many cases there is no dichotomy.

[shaft®]

Post by george of the jungle
Sometimes it spares friends and loved ones agony. Being kept barely
alive by a machine for a month before dying is good for no one.

I wouldn't consider refusing machines, suicide.

[Gleshna]

Post by Mike Sullivan
maybe he had

Post by Mike Sullivan
a terminal disease that was taking him anyway, that he wanted
to off himself before he became not himself.

Seems reasonable to me.


Gleshna

Overheard at 2004 ESA Northeastern Regional Surf Contest:

"F%&*, I got beaten by a guy from the Great Lakes!"

[todd]

nice post....todd.

...............><}}}}}">................
"I wish, I wish, I wish I were a fish"
http://community.webtv.net/mzcmn/

[Neal Miyake]

Post by Surfer Bob
An atmospheric sketch (with pictures!) of a surf session with Will
Borgeson twenty years ago this month...

Excellent writeup Surfer Bob (as always). This (Will's passing) has
always haunted the old alt.surfing crew. The story and especially the
pics were a nice tribute to a very active and opinionated member of
our fraternity (sorority, whatever).

sponge

[Timothy B. Maddux]

Post by Neal Miyake
Excellent writeup Surfer Bob (as always). This (Will's passing) has
always haunted the old alt.surfing crew...

Hard to believe that it was only 2 1/2 years ago.

This was Will's posting of when he and I first met
at Rincon, turned out also to be his face-to-face
reunion with SurferBob. Also turned out to be one
best-ever (or since) sessions at Rincon:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5ai27c%24g2l%241%40mark.ucdavis.edu

[Surfer Bob]

Post by Timothy B. Maddux
This was Will's posting of when he and I first met
at Rincon, turned out also to be his face-to-face
reunion with SurferBob. Also turned out to be one
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5ai27c%24g2l%241%40mark.ucdavis.edu

Thanks for chasing that one down, Tim. Interesting that Will
downplayed his memory. The way I remembered that meeting, he
recognized me better than that.

That was one fine day in the water at the 'Con. As I recall, I was
just learning to ride my little fishie properly (and still learning
the cove lineup) and was getting kind of starved by the longboard
crew. The few I got were very sweet though.

Hope he and Dora have made their peace at some heavenly right
pointbreak. Or maybe heaven means they each have their own and don't
have to share much... :-^

Surfer Bob

[fuzzbusters]

"Surfer Bob" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Eighteen

Post by Surfer Bob
years later Will's earthly remains were found a stone's throw from
this beach. I still miss him and wonder just what he couldn't work
out.

I think the Kneeboarders and Dora Nightmares drove him to it.

[Bob Feigel]

Post by Surfer Bob
An atmospheric sketch (with pictures!) of a surf session with Will
Borgeson twenty years ago this month

<snip>

Post by Surfer Bob
And so it was,
Surfer Bob

Nice tribute. Good memories are worth revisiting. b


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life is all about ass; you're either covering it, laughing it off,
kicking it, kissing it, busting it, trying to get a piece of it,
or behaving like one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wax-up and drop-in on Surfing's Golden Years: <http:www.surfwriter.net>

[d***@nospam.org]

Post by Surfer Bob
An atmospheric sketch (with pictures!) of a surf session with Will
Borgeson twenty years ago this month

Very nice, made me think back to my first days in the water.

With regard to the suicide/depression thing, I've known more violent
suicides than I care to think about, but over time I've come to
realize that they were victims who died of a disease, no more to blame
for their affliction than if they died in a traffic accident.

That's my experience, YMMV.

DCraig.

[O.Fogg]

An atmospheric sketch of a surf session with Miki Dora!

The Surfer's Journal: v.13 #4 NEXT ISSUE!

"The Great Ocean of Atmosphere"
by Ben Marcus

[Drifty]

Post by Surfer Bob
An atmospheric sketch (with pictures!) of a surf session with Will
Borgeson twenty years ago this month
Intro
I met Will Borgeson in the summer of 1984 when I was an undergraduate
student at UC Berkeley doing Ralph Smith's excellent marine biology
field course at UC Davis' Bodega Bay Marine Lab in Sonoma County, CA.
[[Snipped great post for space]]

Thanks for sharing Bob.

- e.

[oeansideblade]

Post by Drifty

Post by Surfer Bob
An atmospheric sketch (with pictures!) of a surf session with Will
Borgeson twenty years ago this month
Intro
I met Will Borgeson in the summer of 1984 when I was an undergraduate
student at UC Berkeley doing Ralph Smith's excellent marine biology
field course at UC Davis' Bodega Bay Marine Lab in Sonoma County, CA.
[[Snipped great post for space]]

Thanks for sharing Bob.
- e.

Oh please, gang, spare us the gallow's humor. He'll never be back.

osb