Complete Peerage Addition: Elizabeth Wyfold, 2nd wife of Sir Henry Marney, 1st Lord Marney, and her mother, Margaret Chedworth, Duchess of Norfolk

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 523 (sub Marney) has a good account of the
life of Sir Henry Marney, 1st Lord Marney (died 1523).

Regarding his second marriage to Elizabeth Wyfold, the following
information is given:

"He married, 2ndly, Elizabeth, da. of Sir Nicholas Wyfold or Wilford,
sometime (1450-51) Lord Mayor of London. She predeceased him, s.p.m."

No sources are cited for this marriage. Also, the mother of Elizabeth
Wyfold is not identified. The issue of Elizabeth Wyfold is not
given. All we are told is that Elizabeth died without male issue
("d.p.m."). The will of Nicholas Wyfold dated 1456 is mentioned in
the notes, however. There were are informed that Nicholas Wyfold's
will names an underage daughter, Isabel. No explanation is made as to
the discrepancy in given names, but as we shall see below Isabel
Wyfold is the same person as Elizabeth Wyfold.

Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold was in fact the daughter of Nicholas
Wyfold, Mayor of London, as stated, by his 2nd wife, Margaret,
daughter of Sir John Chedworth. Following the death of Nicholas
Wyfold in 1456, Margaret Chedworth married (2nd) John Norris (or
Norreys), Esq., of Ockwells (in Bray), Berkshire (died 1 Sept. 1466),
Master of the Royal Wardrobe, Treasurer of the Queen’s Chamber, and
(3rd) before 22 Jan. 1467 John Howard, K.G. (died 1485), Duke of
Norfolk, Admiral of England [see C.P. 9 (1936): 610–612 (sub
Norfolk)]. Thus, Elizabeth Wyfold was the step-daughter of the famous
Sir John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, a very important man in his day.

The connection between these families is affirmed by the will of
Margaret Chadworth, dowager Duchess of Norfolk, printed in Testamenta
Vetusta, 2 (1826): 404–405. This will is available online at the
following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ivsUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA404&dq=testamenta+vetusta+Margaret+Chedworth&hl=en&ei=Nyq2S-yFGozasgP13-2BAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Duchess Margaret's will is dated 13 May 1490, proved 3 Dec. 1494
(P.C.C. Vox). In that will, she refers to her "daughter Marney," to
whom she bequeathed a chain of water-flowers. This will was evidently
overlooked by Complete Peerage, as the editor of Testamenta Vetusta
made no attempt to identify "daughter Marney" in his editorial notes.
From this will, we learn that Duchess Margaret Chedworth was Elizabeth
(or Isabel) Wyfold's mother and that Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold was
living 13 May 1490.

There is a helpful account of the Norris family available online
entitled "The Family of 'l'e Norreys'." It may be viewed at the
following weblink:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BgoAGG5AVcwJ:www.ancestralarchive.com/Family_Files/Various/The%2520Norris%2520family%2520history%2520in%2520England.doc+Nicholas+Wyfold+Yattenden+Chedworth&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

The material presented in the Norris account cites the following
record regarding Nicholas Wyfold, proving that his widow, Margaret,
married (2nd) John Norris, Esq., and that one of his executors was a
certain William Chedworth. This record unfortunately is not sourced:

"On 17 Oct 1464 at Westminster John Pudde of Wolaston,
Northamptonshire, the younger, "carter," (was fined) for not appearing
to answer a plea that he render 6 pounds to William Chedworth and John
Maplethorp, clerk, executors of the will of Nicholas Wyfold, alderman,
citizen and grocer of London, and John Noreys, esquire, and Margaret
his wife, late the wife of the said Nicholas and co-executrix of his
will." END OF QUOTE.

The William Chedworth who served as executor for Nicholas Wyfold can
be readily identified as his wife, Margaret Chedworth's own uncle.
William Chedworth was a Citizen of London and formerly served as Clerk
of the Chamber of London [see Douglas-Smith, City of London School
(1965): 514; Barron, London in the Later Middle Ages (2005): 184];
William likewise served as executor of the will of his brother, John
Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln (died 1471) [see Cal. Patent Rolls, 1467–
1477 (1900): 432].

As for Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold, the online Norris account
indicates that she actually had two marriages, not one. The following
record (again unsourced) indicate that Elizabeth (here called Isabel)
married (1st) her step-brother, John Norris, Esq., and (2nd) Henry
Marney:

"On 2 July 1491 it was granted to Henry Marny, esquire, to had the
'keeping of all lands late of John Norreys, esquire, tenant in chief
by knight-service, during the minority of his son and heir Edmund,
with the keeping and marriage of the said heir; also of the reversion
of the keeping of the manors of Pirton and Jenningsbury, alias
Yevenelesbury, Herefordshire, which Isabel, late the wife of the said
John, now the wife of the said Henry Marny, holds for life'." END OF
QUOTE.

Thus, it would appear that Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold married (1st)
John Norris, Esq., by whom she had a son, Edmund, and (2nd) before 2
July 1491 to her second husband, Henry Marny.

Further particulars are given in the online Norris account regarding
Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold's first husband, John Norris, who is
stated to have died in 1485, and her son, Edmund Norris, living in
1508. They will not be repeated here.

As for Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold's issue by Henry Marney, a
pedigree published in Harvey, Vis. of Norfolk 1563 1 (1878): 155–164
shows that she had a daughter, Grace Marney, who married Sir Edmund
Bedingfield, of Oxborough, Norfolk (his will proved 1553). This
visitation may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=qkpFAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA74&dq=Visitation+Norfolk+Bedingfield+Grace&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

It would appear that Grace Marney was her mother's heiress (or
eventual heiress), as the Wyfold and Chedworth arms (but not the
Marney arms) were included among the quarterings of the Bedingfield
family listed on page 155. These arms were also placed on an ancient
Bedingfield family monument as indicated by Blomefield, Essay towards
a Topog. Hist. of Norfolk, 6 (1807): 186–187.

The Chedworth arms are known from several sources. Among them is
Taylor & Dale, History and Antiquities of Harwich & Dovercourt‎
(1730): 182, which mentions an escutcheon on a Howard family tomb at
Stoke by Nayland, Suffolk “on which is a Cheveron between three Wolves
Heads erased, which being the Coat Armour for Chedworth … [presumably
placed] for the said Margaret [Chedworth] Duchess Dowager of
Norfolk). Reference to the Chedworth arms is also made in Woodforde,
Norwich School of Glass-painting (1950): 125.

The Chedworth arms employed by Duchess Margaret Chedworth are the same
arms used by her uncle, John Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln (died 1471),
as indicated by the following two sources:

1. Bedford, Blazon of Episcopacy (1858): 37 (arms of John Chedworth,
Bishop of Lincoln: Azure, a chevron between three wolfs’ heads (cocks
heads: Browne Willis) erased Or).

2. Inv. of Hist. Monuments in the City of Oxford (1949): 190 (arms of
John Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln: Azure a chevron between three
wolves’ heads razed or).

In closing, it should be noted that Duchess Margaret Chedworth's
father, John Chedworth, a civil lawyer, bore the same given name as
his better known brother, John Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln. Evidence
which proves that the two John Chedworths were brothers may be found
in Parks, English Traveler to Italy, 1 (1954): 440.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-02 19:07:40 UTC

Dear Newsgroup~

The source for the record below is Cal. Patent Rolls, 1485–1494
(1914): 345.

Post by Douglas Richardson
"On 2 July 1491 it was granted to Henry Marny, esquire, to had the
'keeping of all lands late of John Norreys, esquire, tenant in chief
by knight-service, during the minority of his son and heir Edmund,
with the keeping and marriage of the said heir; also of the reversion
of the keeping of the manors of Pirton and Jenningsbury, alias
Yevenelesbury, Herefordshire, which Isabel, late the wife of the said
John, now the wife of the said Henry Marny, holds for life'." END OF
QUOTE.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-02 19:22:24 UTC

Dear Newsgroup ~

The source for the record below is Cal. Patent Rolls, 1461–1467
(1897): 316. It may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0HpJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA316&dq=Nicholas+Wyfold,+alderman,+citizen+and+grocer+of+London&hl=en&ei=NEK2S7mEA9GFnQfLmvCKDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Nicholas%20Wyfold%2C%20alderman%2C%20citizen%20and%20grocer%20of%20London&f=false

"On 17 Oct 1464 at Westminster John Pudde of Wolaston,
Northamptonshire, the younger, "carter," (was fined) for not
appearing
to answer a plea that he render 6 pounds to William Chedworth and
John
Maplethorp, clerk, executors of the will of Nicholas Wyfold, alderman,
citizen and grocer of London, and John Noreys, esquire, and Margaret
his wife, late the wife of the said Nicholas and co-executrix of his
will." END OF QUOTE.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Leo

2010-04-02 20:24:50 UTC

This is a very interesting message which adds some good information.

I don't understand why Douglas calls it a discrepancy when Elizabeth Wyfold
is called Isabel. In those times Elizabeth and Isabel were interchangeable.

Also no mention is made that Margaret Chedworth and the Duke of Norfolk had
a daughter who married and has descendants. Included in these are Lady Diana
Spencer, Sarah Ferguson, both George Bush, and gateway ancestors Muriel
Gurdon, Edmund Bohun and William Brodnax.

An interesting point is that Sir Edmund Bedingfield (husband of Grace Marny)
was the custodian of Catherine of Aragon after she was divorced by Henry
VIII. The Bedingfield family, as Paston-Bedingfield, are still amongst us
and can be found in Burke's Peerage as they became Baronets.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <***@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 5:45 AM
Subject: Complete Peerage Addition: Elizabeth Wyfold, 2nd wife of Sir Henry
Marney, 1st Lord Marney, and her mother, Margaret Chedworth, Duchess of
Norfolk

Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 523 (sub Marney) has a good account of the
life of Sir Henry Marney, 1st Lord Marney (died 1523).
Regarding his second marriage to Elizabeth Wyfold, the following
"He married, 2ndly, Elizabeth, da. of Sir Nicholas Wyfold or Wilford,
sometime (1450-51) Lord Mayor of London. She predeceased him, s.p.m."
No sources are cited for this marriage. Also, the mother of Elizabeth
Wyfold is not identified. The issue of Elizabeth Wyfold is not
given. All we are told is that Elizabeth died without male issue
("d.p.m."). The will of Nicholas Wyfold dated 1456 is mentioned in
the notes, however. There were are informed that Nicholas Wyfold's
will names an underage daughter, Isabel. No explanation is made as to
the discrepancy in given names, but as we shall see below Isabel
Wyfold is the same person as Elizabeth Wyfold.
Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold was in fact the daughter of Nicholas
Wyfold, Mayor of London, as stated, by his 2nd wife, Margaret,
daughter of Sir John Chedworth. Following the death of Nicholas
Wyfold in 1456, Margaret Chedworth married (2nd) John Norris (or
Norreys), Esq., of Ockwells (in Bray), Berkshire (died 1 Sept. 1466),
Master of the Royal Wardrobe, Treasurer of the Queen’s Chamber, and
(3rd) before 22 Jan. 1467 John Howard, K.G. (died 1485), Duke of
Norfolk, Admiral of England [see C.P. 9 (1936): 610–612 (sub
Norfolk)]. Thus, Elizabeth Wyfold was the step-daughter of the famous
Sir John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, a very important man in his day.
The connection between these families is affirmed by the will of
Margaret Chadworth, dowager Duchess of Norfolk, printed in Testamenta
Vetusta, 2 (1826): 404–405. This will is available online at the
http://books.google.com/books?id=ivsUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA404&dq=testamenta+vetusta+Margaret+Chedworth&hl=en&ei=Nyq2S-yFGozasgP13-2BAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Duchess Margaret's will is dated 13 May 1490, proved 3 Dec. 1494
(P.C.C. Vox). In that will, she refers to her "daughter Marney," to
whom she bequeathed a chain of water-flowers. This will was evidently
overlooked by Complete Peerage, as the editor of Testamenta Vetusta
made no attempt to identify "daughter Marney" in his editorial notes.
From this will, we learn that Duchess Margaret Chedworth was Elizabeth
(or Isabel) Wyfold's mother and that Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold was
living 13 May 1490.
There is a helpful account of the Norris family available online
entitled "The Family of 'l'e Norreys'." It may be viewed at the
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BgoAGG5AVcwJ:www.ancestralarchive.com/Family_Files/Various/The%2520Norris%2520family%2520history%2520in%2520England.doc+Nicholas+Wyfold+Yattenden+Chedworth&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
The material presented in the Norris account cites the following
record regarding Nicholas Wyfold, proving that his widow, Margaret,
married (2nd) John Norris, Esq., and that one of his executors was a
"On 17 Oct 1464 at Westminster John Pudde of Wolaston,
Northamptonshire, the younger, "carter," (was fined) for not appearing
to answer a plea that he render 6 pounds to William Chedworth and John
Maplethorp, clerk, executors of the will of Nicholas Wyfold, alderman,
citizen and grocer of London, and John Noreys, esquire, and Margaret
his wife, late the wife of the said Nicholas and co-executrix of his
will." END OF QUOTE.
The William Chedworth who served as executor for Nicholas Wyfold can
be readily identified as his wife, Margaret Chedworth's own uncle.
William Chedworth was a Citizen of London and formerly served as Clerk
of the Chamber of London [see Douglas-Smith, City of London School
(1965): 514; Barron, London in the Later Middle Ages (2005): 184];
William likewise served as executor of the will of his brother, John
Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln (died 1471) [see Cal. Patent Rolls, 1467–
1477 (1900): 432].
As for Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold, the online Norris account
indicates that she actually had two marriages, not one. The following
record (again unsourced) indicate that Elizabeth (here called Isabel)
married (1st) her step-brother, John Norris, Esq., and (2nd) Henry
"On 2 July 1491 it was granted to Henry Marny, esquire, to had the
'keeping of all lands late of John Norreys, esquire, tenant in chief
by knight-service, during the minority of his son and heir Edmund,
with the keeping and marriage of the said heir; also of the reversion
of the keeping of the manors of Pirton and Jenningsbury, alias
Yevenelesbury, Herefordshire, which Isabel, late the wife of the said
John, now the wife of the said Henry Marny, holds for life'." END OF
QUOTE.
Thus, it would appear that Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold married (1st)
John Norris, Esq., by whom she had a son, Edmund, and (2nd) before 2
July 1491 to her second husband, Henry Marny.
Further particulars are given in the online Norris account regarding
Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold's first husband, John Norris, who is
stated to have died in 1485, and her son, Edmund Norris, living in
1508. They will not be repeated here.
As for Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold's issue by Henry Marney, a
pedigree published in Harvey, Vis. of Norfolk 1563 1 (1878): 155–164
shows that she had a daughter, Grace Marney, who married Sir Edmund
Bedingfield, of Oxborough, Norfolk (his will proved 1553). This
http://books.google.com/books?id=qkpFAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA74&dq=Visitation+Norfolk+Bedingfield+Grace&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
It would appear that Grace Marney was her mother's heiress (or
eventual heiress), as the Wyfold and Chedworth arms (but not the
Marney arms) were included among the quarterings of the Bedingfield
family listed on page 155. These arms were also placed on an ancient
Bedingfield family monument as indicated by Blomefield, Essay towards
a Topog. Hist. of Norfolk, 6 (1807): 186–187.
The Chedworth arms are known from several sources. Among them is
Taylor & Dale, History and Antiquities of Harwich & Dovercourt‎
(1730): 182, which mentions an escutcheon on a Howard family tomb at
Stoke by Nayland, Suffolk “on which is a Cheveron between three Wolves
Heads erased, which being the Coat Armour for Chedworth … [presumably
placed] for the said Margaret [Chedworth] Duchess Dowager of
Norfolk). Reference to the Chedworth arms is also made in Woodforde,
Norwich School of Glass-painting (1950): 125.
The Chedworth arms employed by Duchess Margaret Chedworth are the same
arms used by her uncle, John Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln (died 1471),
1. Bedford, Blazon of Episcopacy (1858): 37 (arms of John Chedworth,
Bishop of Lincoln: Azure, a chevron between three wolfs’ heads (cocks
heads: Browne Willis) erased Or).
2. Inv. of Hist. Monuments in the City of Oxford (1949): 190 (arms of
John Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln: Azure a chevron between three
wolves’ heads razed or).
In closing, it should be noted that Duchess Margaret Chedworth's
father, John Chedworth, a civil lawyer, bore the same given name as
his better known brother, John Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln. Evidence
which proves that the two John Chedworths were brothers may be found
in Parks, English Traveler to Italy, 1 (1954): 440.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

wjhonson

2010-04-02 22:27:54 UTC

There is an interesting contradiction in these sources.

Douglas states that Nicholas Wyfold has a 1456 Will, and that he was
the first husband of Margaret Chedworth.

However John Norreys then called "of Yattendon" has a 1451 settlement
of the Manor of Newenham which he makes on himself and his wife
MARGARET.

These two sources conflict.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BgoAGG5AVcwJ:www.ancestralarchive.com/Family_Files/Various/The%2520Norris%2520family%2520history%2520in%2520England.doc+Nicholas+Wyfold+Yattenden+Chedworth&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Will Johnson

John Briggs

2010-04-02 23:34:47 UTC

Post by wjhonson
There is an interesting contradiction in these sources.
Douglas states that Nicholas Wyfold has a 1456 Will, and that he was
the first husband of Margaret Chedworth.
However John Norreys then called "of Yattendon" has a 1451 settlement
of the Manor of Newenham which he makes on himself and his wife
MARGARET.
These two sources conflict.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BgoAGG5AVcwJ:www.ancestralarchive.com/Family_Files/Various/The%2520Norris%2520family%2520history%2520in%2520England.doc+Nicholas+Wyfold+Yattenden+Chedworth&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Doubtless a different John Norreys. Yattendon is in a different part of
Berkshire from Bray. It is near Hampstead Norris (Norreys).

--
John Briggs

Leo

2010-04-02 22:42:18 UTC

Dear Will,
John Norreys married Margaret Chedworth as his 2nd wife, or so I understand.
What is stopping him from marrying another Margaret as his first? After all
he had a son by his first wife.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <***@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Elizabeth Wyfold, 2nd wife of Sir
Henry Marney, 1st Lord Marney, and her mother, Margaret Chedworth,Duchess of
Norfolk

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-02 23:32:35 UTC

Dear Newsgroup ~

As noted in my earlier post today, Margaret Chedworth, dowager Duchess
of Norfolk (died 1494) had three successive marriages as follows:

(1st) (as his 2nd wife) Nicholas Wyfold (died 1456), Alderman,
Citizen, and grocer of London, Mayor of London (1450–1) [see Cal.
Patent Rolls, 1461–1467
(1897): 316]. They had one daughter, Isabel (or Elizabeth), who
married John Norris, Esq., and Sir Henry Marney, Knt., 1st Lord
Marney.

(2nd) before 20 Sept. 1459 (as his 3rd wife) John Norris (or Norreys),
Esq., of Ockwells (in Bray), Berkshire (died 1 Sept. 1466), Master of
the Royal Wardrobe, Treasurer of the Queen’s Chamber [see Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1461–1467 (1897): 316]. They allegedly had one son, William,
and one daughter, Lettice, which children may belong to one of John
Norris' earlier wives.

(3rd) before 22 Jan. 1467 (as his 2nd wife) John Howard, K.G. (died
1485), Duke of Norfolk, Admiral of England [see C.P. 9 (1936): 610–612
(sub
Norfolk)]. They had one daughter, Katherine (wife of John Bourchier,
K.B., 2nd Lord Berners).

By a marriage other than her 3rd marriage to John Howard, Margaret
Chedworth had a middle daughter, Jane (or Joan), who married William
Radmylde, Knt. (died 1499). Evidence of Jane's existence is found in
an article published in Proceedings of Suffolk Institute of Arch. &
Natural History, 4 (1774): 189–190, which may be viewed at the
following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=cQIVAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA189&dq=Suffolk+Institute+Margaret+Chedworth&hl=en&ei=AXG2S9rCMI3usQP4samXBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

The author of this article includes the transcript of a monumental
inscription formerly found at Stoke by Nayland, Suffolk for "D'na
Johanna Redmeld" [Lady Jane/Joan Radmylde] late the wife of William
Redmeld, Knt., which Jane is stated to have died 20 Feb. 1500. The
inscription clearly states that Jane (or Joan) "Redmeld" was the
daughter of Lady Margaret Howard, Duchess of Norfolk.

Jane, wife of Sir William Radmylde, is elsewhere mentioned in a record
dated 1492 which is published in English Reports, 7 (1901): 903–904.
This information may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=yCUwAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA904&lpg=PA904&dq=William+Radmylde+1499&source=bl&ots=xauC2f7Z9Y&sig=MYoq_BdccJX6EDxym4U2caLyp6A&hl=en&ei=AVi2S67SBIPctgPBx-yWBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=William%20Radmylde%201499&f=false

Presumably the marriage of Sir William Radmylde and his wife, Jane,
was an unhappy one, as he is known to have had a number of
illegitimate children by a mistress, Ann Herbert. In 1492 he
specifically excluded Jane from holding dower in property he acquired
in Oxfordshire from Thomas Danvers. Also, it may be noted that at
Jane's death in 1500, she was buried at Stoke by Nayland (a Howard
estate) rather than in a church held by the Radmylde family.

Curiously, VCH Oxford 7 (1996): 11 erroneously identifies Jane, wife
of William Radmylde, was the daughter of Alice [de la Pole], Duchess
of Suffolk. Duchess Alice definitely had no such daughter.

While is obvious from her monumental inscription that Jane Radmylde
was the daughter of Margaret Chedworth, Duchess of Norfolk, it remains
questionable as to which of Duchess Margaret's first two husbands was
the father of Jane Radmylde.

Margaret Chedworth's first husband, Nicholas Wyfold, left a will dated
just before his death and named only one daughter, Isabel, whose
history is accounted for elsewhere. Margaret Chedworth's second
husband, John Norris, likewise left a will but he mentions no daughter
named Jane or Joan in this will. Unless Margaret Chedworth had
another husband whose record has not been located, it seems likely
that Jane (or Joan) Radmylde would have to be a daughter of John
Norris.

Searching for evidence which might resolve this problem, I located a
record in the A2A Catalogue which shows that William Radmyld, then
Esq., served as a witness for a grant in 1474 for William Norris, the
elder step-son of Margaret (Chedworth) (Wyfold) (Norris) Howard.
William Radmylde was then about 23 years old at this date (he being
aged 6 at his father's death in 1457). This supplies good evidence
that William Radmylde knew the Norris family well. If his wife Jane
was born as early as 1460, he might already have been an in-law of the
Norris family.

Reference: A2A Catalogue (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/)

London Metropolitan Archives: Wood Family
ACC/0928/001/10 [1474]

Seals: 1 red wax, arm.

Arrangement: Original No.21
Label no. 408

Contents:

1.William Norys, kt., son and heir of John Norys, deceased

2. William Bulstrods, citizen and clothier, Richard Bulstrode and
William Radmyld esq. and Richard Batte, citizen and clothier
Manor of Lytlyngton and advowson of church of same manor.

Witnesses: John Abbot of Chartesey, John Crosby, kt., Richard Aubrey.

Hopefully other evidence exists which will satisfactorily prove the
the paternity of Jane, wife of William Radmylde, Knt. If anyone
knows of any such evidence, I would appreciate hearing from them here
on the newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

wjhonson

2010-04-02 23:53:54 UTC

Leo, nothing stops John Norreys from having any number of wives I
suppose, but the received wisdom is that he had three: Alice Merbrooke
sole heiress of her father; Eleanor Clitherow, heiress of her father
(possibly not sole); and thirdly Margaret Chedworth.

I think the likely solution rather than the creation of yet another
wife is simply going to be that Nicholas Wyfold's will was perhaps
*proven* in 1456 or some other post-mortem action and not actually
dated that year. That is, that Nicholas had already been dead some
time and then something occurred to bring his name back up again in
1456.

Will

John Briggs

2010-04-03 00:19:40 UTC

Post by wjhonson
Leo, nothing stops John Norreys from having any number of wives I
suppose, but the received wisdom is that he had three: Alice Merbrooke
sole heiress of her father; Eleanor Clitherow, heiress of her father
(possibly not sole); and thirdly Margaret Chedworth.
I think the likely solution rather than the creation of yet another
wife is simply going to be that Nicholas Wyfold's will was perhaps
*proven* in 1456 or some other post-mortem action and not actually
dated that year. That is, that Nicholas had already been dead some
time and then something occurred to bring his name back up again in
1456.

That doesn't help, because Eleanor doesn't seem to have died until about
1456 (her son John was born after 1453...)

I think there is a bigger problem: John Norreys' will describes him as
"squyer", yet he is supposed to have been knighted! He also has an
impossible career as both Esquire of the Body to Henry VI and Edward IV.
I think we have two people.

--
John Briggs

wjhonson

2010-04-03 00:07:40 UTC

I believe Douglas that Margaret (Howard) Wyndham "fouth daughter" of
John Howard Duke of Norfolk should also go here as a daughter of
Margaret Chedworth

http://books.google.com/books?id=6SI8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1164&dq=Sir+Thomas+Wyndham+norfolk

http://books.google.com/books?id=vf8tAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA872&dq=Sir+Thomas+Wyndham+norfolk

http://books.google.com/books?id=qzkEAAAAYAAJ&dq=wyndham%20of%20orchard&client=firefox-a&pg=PA872#v=onepage&q=&f=false
EB (1911), "Wyndham, Sir William, Bart (1687-1740)"

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-03 00:26:01 UTC

Dear Newsgroup ~

The answer to the question of the paternity of Jane (or Joan) Radmylde
might well be found in the book, Household Books of John Howard 1462–
1471, 1481–1483 (1992). I've seen this book in the past and I know it
mentions some of the Duke John Howard's step-daughters.

If anyone has ready access to this book, perhaps they can check it for
any reference to Jane Radmylde. According to Procs. Suffolk Inst. of
Arch. & Nat. Hist. 4 (1774): 189–190 (which source I cited in an
earlier post), the Duke's household books refers to his daughter-in-
law [i.e., step-daughter] named Radmylde.

If Jane Radmylde was born as early as her husband, William Radmylde
(who was born c.1451), the possibility exists that Jane was the
daughter of an earlier unknown 1st marriage of Margaret Chedworth.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John

2010-04-10 21:44:52 UTC

Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
The answer to the question of the paternity of Jane (or Joan) Radmylde
might well be found in the book,HouseholdBooksof John Howard 1462–
1471, 1481–1483 (1992). I've seen this book in the past and I know it
mentions some of the Duke John Howard's step-daughters.
If anyone has ready access to this book, perhaps they can check it for
any reference to Jane Radmylde. According to Procs. Suffolk Inst. of
Arch. & Nat. Hist. 4 (1774): 189–190 (which source I cited in an
earlier post), the Duke'shouseholdbooksrefers to his daughter-in-
law [i.e., step-daughter] named Radmylde.
If Jane Radmylde was born as early as her husband, William Radmylde
(who was born c.1451), the possibility exists that Jane was the
daughter of an earlier unknown 1st marriage of Margaret Chedworth.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

The 1992 edition of "The Household Books of John Howard, Duke of
Norfolk" does not mention a Jane or Joan Radmylde at all. The
household books themselves have two references to a "Maestres Radmild"
or "Radmyld", and in one of these she is called "dowter in law" of the
Duke. There is a third reference to "Radmyldes child", whose parents
were presumably the "dowter in law" previously mentioned and her
husband. In none of these cases are any given names provided - or
added in notes by the editor of the household books.

The introduction to the edition, written by Anne Crawford, discusses
the marriage of Margaret Chedworth to the Duke of Norfolk and states,
without providing sources, that "the new wife brought to Tendring Hall
her daughters by each of her former husbands, Isabel Wyfold, who was
later to marry Sir Henry Marney, and Lettice Norris who married
William Radmyld. Both girls appear in the memoranda [i.e., the
household books], together with Margaret's youngest step-daughter,
Anne Norris, who seems never to have married and remained in
attendance on her stepmother." [end of quote]

Later in the introduction reference is made to two household lists of
Margaret Chedworth, "one taken at her Norris household three days
before she married Howard, the other a list of people she apparently
brought to Stoke-by-Nayland [the Howard estate] with her". These
lists, which do not entirely agree with one another, are published in
the edition of the household books of her husband. With respect to
Margaret's immediate family, the entries on the list are as follows
[spelling unaltered]:

My lady [Margaret herself]
Mastres Jane her dowter
Mastres Isabel her dowter
Mastres Lettice her dowter
Master Willyam her sones

This entry clearly does not indicate which daughter married William
Radmylde, nor does it explicitly indicate who the fathers were for
each child. However, if the children are listed in birth order (and
at least the last three presumably are, based on other sources), it
suggests that Jane was older than Isabel and thus the daughter of
Nicholas Wyfold - even if she was not mentioned in his will. Aside
from this, no conclusion can be reached from this information
regarding Jane's paternity from the household books.

It does seem, however, that Ms. Crawford in her introduction was wrong
in saying that it was Margaret's daughter Lettice (rather than Jane)
who married William Radmylde.

Les A Cox

2021-07-25 10:36:41 UTC

http://wills.oxfordshirefhs.org.uk/az/wtext/curson_001.html This has connection to Edmund Norres s/o John Norres. Marney etal.

Merilyn Pedrick

2010-04-03 00:02:43 UTC

Dear Leo and Douglas

Thanks for this new information.

I've just tried to find Edmund Bedingfield in Genealogics and can only find
the one married to Anne Southwell. Where does the Edmund who married Grace
Marny fit in?

I've got Henry Marney married to Thomasine Arundel, so I guess she's his
first wife from whom we descend through their daughter Katherine who married
Thomas Bonham of Stanway Hall. It would be nice to find a descent from his
second marriage to Elizabeth/Isabel Wyfold as well.

Best wishes

Merilyn Pedrick

-------Original Message-------

From: Leo

Date: 3/04/2010 6:55:34 AM

To: Gen-***@rootsweb.com

Subject: Fw: Complete Peerage Addition: Elizabeth Wyfold,2nd wife of Sir
Henry Marney, 1st Lord Marney, and her mother,Margaret Chedworth, Duchess of
Norfolk

This is a very interesting message which adds some good information.

I don't understand why Douglas calls it a discrepancy when Elizabeth Wyfold

Is called Isabel. In those times Elizabeth and Isabel were interchangeable.

Also no mention is made that Margaret Chedworth and the Duke of Norfolk had

A daughter who married and has descendants. Included in these are Lady Diana

Spencer, Sarah Ferguson, both George Bush, and gateway ancestors Muriel

Gurdon, Edmund Bohun and William Brodnax.

An interesting point is that Sir Edmund Bedingfield (husband of Grace Marny)

Was the custodian of Catherine of Aragon after she was divorced by Henry

VIII. The Bedingfield family, as Paston-Bedingfield, are still amongst us

And can be found in Burke's Peerage as they became Baronets.

With best wishes

Leo van de Pas

Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----

From: "Douglas Richardson" <***@msn.com>

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval

To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>

Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 5:45 AM

Subject: Complete Peerage Addition: Elizabeth Wyfold, 2nd wife of Sir Henry

Marney, 1st Lord Marney, and her mother, Margaret Chedworth, Duchess of

Norfolk

com/books?id=ivsUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA404&dq=testamenta+vetusta+Margaret+Chedworth&h
=en&ei=Nyq2S-yFGozasgP13-2BAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDM
6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Post by Douglas Richardson
Duchess Margaret's will is dated 13 May 1490, proved 3 Dec. 1494
(P.C.C. Vox). In that will, she refers to her "daughter Marney," to
whom she bequeathed a chain of water-flowers. This will was evidently
overlooked by Complete Peerage, as the editor of Testamenta Vetusta
made no attempt to identify "daughter Marney" in his editorial notes.
From this will, we learn that Duchess Margaret Chedworth was Elizabeth
(or Isabel) Wyfold's mother and that Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold was
living 13 May 1490.
There is a helpful account of the Norris family available online
entitled "The Family of 'l'e Norreys'." It may be viewed at the
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BgoAGG5AVcwJ:www

ancestralarchive
com/Family_Files/Various/The%2520Norris%2520family%2520history%2520in%2520Eng
and.doc+Nicholas+Wyfold+Yattenden+Chedworth&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Post by Douglas Richardson
The material presented in the Norris account cites the following
record regarding Nicholas Wyfold, proving that his widow, Margaret,
married (2nd) John Norris, Esq., and that one of his executors was a
"On 17 Oct 1464 at Westminster John Pudde of Wolaston,
Northamptonshire, the younger, "carter," (was fined) for not appearing
to answer a plea that he render 6 pounds to William Chedworth and John
Maplethorp, clerk, executors of the will of Nicholas Wyfold, alderman,
citizen and grocer of London, and John Noreys, esquire, and Margaret
his wife, late the wife of the said Nicholas and co-executrix of his
will." END OF QUOTE.
The William Chedworth who served as executor for Nicholas Wyfold can
be readily identified as his wife, Margaret Chedworth's own uncle.
William Chedworth was a Citizen of London and formerly served as Clerk
of the Chamber of London [see Douglas-Smith, City of London School
(1965): 514; Barron, London in the Later Middle Ages (2005): 184];
William likewise served as executor of the will of his brother, John
Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln (died 1471) [see Cal. Patent Rolls, 1467–
1477 (1900): 432].
As for Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold, the online Norris account
indicates that she actually had two marriages, not one. The following
record (again unsourced) indicate that Elizabeth (here called Isabel)
married (1st) her step-brother, John Norris, Esq., and (2nd) Henry
"On 2 July 1491 it was granted to Henry Marny, esquire, to had the
'keeping of all lands late of John Norreys, esquire, tenant in chief
by knight-service, during the minority of his son and heir Edmund,
with the keeping and marriage of the said heir; also of the reversion
of the keeping of the manors of Pirton and Jenningsbury, alias
Yevenelesbury, Herefordshire, which Isabel, late the wife of the said
John, now the wife of the said Henry Marny, holds for life'." END OF
QUOTE.
Thus, it would appear that Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold married (1st)
John Norris, Esq., by whom she had a son, Edmund, and (2nd) before 2
July 1491 to her second husband, Henry Marny.
Further particulars are given in the online Norris account regarding
Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold's first husband, John Norris, who is
stated to have died in 1485, and her son, Edmund Norris, living in
1508. They will not be repeated here.
As for Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold's issue by Henry Marney, a
pedigree published in Harvey, Vis. of Norfolk 1563 1 (1878): 155–164
shows that she had a daughter, Grace Marney, who married Sir Edmund
Bedingfield, of Oxborough, Norfolk (his will proved 1553). This
http://books.google

com/books?id=qkpFAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA74&dq=Visitation+Norfolk+Bedingfield+Grace
cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Post by Douglas Richardson
It would appear that Grace Marney was her mother's heiress (or
eventual heiress), as the Wyfold and Chedworth arms (but not the
Marney arms) were included among the quarterings of the Bedingfield
family listed on page 155. These arms were also placed on an ancient
Bedingfield family monument as indicated by Blomefield, Essay towards
a Topog. Hist. of Norfolk, 6 (1807): 186–187.
The Chedworth arms are known from several sources. Among them is
Taylor & Dale, History and Antiquities of Harwich & Dovercourt‎
(1730): 182, which mentions an escutcheon on a Howard family tomb at
Stoke by Nayland, Suffolk “on which is a Cheveron between three Wolves
Heads erased, which being the Coat Armour for Chedworth … [presumably
placed] for the said Margaret [Chedworth] Duchess Dowager of
Norfolk). Reference to the Chedworth arms is also made in Woodforde,
Norwich School of Glass-painting (1950): 125.
The Chedworth arms employed by Duchess Margaret Chedworth are the same
arms used by her uncle, John Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln (died 1471),
1. Bedford, Blazon of Episcopacy (1858): 37 (arms of John Chedworth,
Bishop of Lincoln: Azure, a chevron between three wolfs’ heads (cocks
heads: Browne Willis) erased Or).
2. Inv. of Hist. Monuments in the City of Oxford (1949): 190 (arms of
John Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln: Azure a chevron between three
wolves’ heads razed or).
In closing, it should be noted that Duchess Margaret Chedworth's
father, John Chedworth, a civil lawyer, bore the same given name as
his better known brother, John Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln. Evidence
which proves that the two John Chedworths were brothers may be found
in Parks, English Traveler to Italy, 1 (1954): 440.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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Douglas Richardson

2010-04-04 14:21:52 UTC

Dear Newsgroup ~

In an earlier post, I presented evidence which showed that Elizabeth
(or Isabel) Wyfold, wife of Sir Henry Marney, 1st Lord Marney, was
actually married twice. Her first husband was her step-brother, John
Norris (or Norreys), Esq., by whom she had a son and heir, Edmund
Norris (or Norreys), living in 1508. Her second husband was Sir Henry
Marney, 1st Lord Marney (died 1523), by whom she had a daughter, Grace
Marney, wife of Sir Edmund Bedingfield.

The four items below are taken from the National Archives online
Catalogue. These items concern the estate/debts of Elizabeth (or
Isabel) Wyfold's first husband, John Norris, Esq. The first item
below is of particular interest, as it indicates that Elizabeth (or
Isabel) Wyfold had yet another child by her 1st marriage, namely Amy
Norreys, who I presume was heiress to her brother, Edmund Norris, in
or after 1508, which is the last date he was known to be living.

Sir William Norris/Norreys mentioned in the items below is presumably
the elder half-brother of John Norris, Esq.

C 1/151/124 Amy, daughter of John Norreis, esquire, deceased. v.
William Norreis, feoffee to uses.: The manors of Goldston, Nelmes, and
Poulders, and land and rent in Bledlow, Princes Risborough, and Monks
Risborough.: Kent, Bucks. 1486-1493, or 1504-1515

C 1/258/14 John Baron v. Sir Henry Marney: Debt of John Norres,
deceased, whose lands were delivered by Sir William Norres to Marney,
to pay his legacies and debts. 1502-1503C

C 1/258/15 Alice, late the wife of John Baron. v. Sir Henry Marney:
Debt of John Norres, deceased, whose lands were delivered by Sir
William Norres to Marney, to pay his legacies and debts. 1502-1503

SC 6/HENVII/1062 Kent: Poulders near Sandwich Buckingham: Fresell in
Princes Risborough Buckingham: Bledlow [Possessions of Henry Marney ?]
(mutilated) 10-15 Hen VII [1494-1500 period]

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-04 16:15:16 UTC

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 89-93 (sub Montagu) has a good account of
the life of John Neville, K.G., Marques of Montagu, sometime Earl of
Northumberland, who was slain at the Battle of Barnet 14 April 1471.
John Neville was full brother of the famous Richard Neville, K.G.,
Earl of Warwick and Salisbury, nicknamed the Kingmaker, who was slain
at the same battle.

Regarding John Neville's only marriage, the following information is
provided by Complete Peerage:

"He married 25 April 1457, Isabel (or Elizabeth), daughter and
coheiress of Sir Edmund Ingaldesthorpe, of Borough Green, co.
Cambridge, by Joan, sister and eventual heir of John (Tibetot or
Tiptoft), Earl of Worcester, and daughter of John, Lord Tibetot. He
[John Neville] died 14 April 1471 ... His widow married 25 April 1472
Sir William Norreys, by whom she had issue, and who was attainted in
1484. She died 20 May 1476, and was buried at Bisham." END OF QUOTE.

We are not given any particulars regarding Isabel Ingaldesthorpe's 2nd
husband, Sir William Norreys, beyond the fact that he was attainted in
1484.

However, it can be easily be shown that this Sir William Norreys is
the man of that name of Yattendon, Berkshire, Braunstone,
Leicestershire, and London, Knight of the Body to Kings Edward IV and
Henry VII, Lieutenant of Windsor, Sheriff of Oxfordshire and
Berkshire, 1468–9, 1481–2, 1486–7, Knight of the Shire for Berkshire.
He was born about 1441 (aged 25 in 1466), and was the eldest son and
heir of John Norreys, Esq., of Ockwells (in Bray) and Yattendon,
Berkshire, Master of the Royal Wardrobe, Treasurer of the Queen’s
Chamber, by his 1st wife, Alice, daughter and heiress of Richard
Merbroke. As such, Sir William Norreys was the step-son of Margaret
Chedworth, Duchess of Norfolk, who has been discussed in earlier
posts.

Isabel Ingaldesthorpe, Marchioness of Montagu, was not Sir William
Norreys' only wife, however. The Visitation of Berkshire sets out
three marriages for him [see Benolte et al., Four Vis. of Berkshire
1532, 1566, 1623 & 1665–6 2 (H.S.P. 57) (1908): 184–186 (Norris ped.]:

1 .… da. & coh. to John Nevill Marques Mountacute.
2. Jane da: to Jno Vere E. of Oxford.
3: Anne da: to John Horne Alderman of London & Widow to Sr Jno
Harcourt.

It appears that the above visitation record is somewhat garbled. Sir
William Norreys actually married (1st) Jane (or Joan) Vere, daughter
of John Vere, Knt., 12th Earl of Oxford, by Elizabeth, daughter and
heiress of John Howard, Knt., 7th Lord Plaiz. By this marriage, he
reportedly had six children, namely four sons, Edward, Knt., Richard,
William, and George, and two daughters, Margaret (wife of Gilbert
Bullock) and Elizabeth (wife of _____ Rogers and Thomas Fettiplace).

Following the death of Jane (or Joan) Vere, Sir William Norreys
married (2nd) as stated by Complete Peerage in 1472 Isabel
Ingaldesthorpe, widow of John Neville, Marquess of Montagu. They had
one son who died in infancy. She died in 1476 as stated by Complete
Peerage.

At this point, things get rather murky as various secondary sources
state he married either Anne (or Joan) Horne, by whom he had further
issue. She is made to be either the widow of Sir John Harcourt, or
William Harcourt.

Actually contemporary records prove that she was Anne, widow of Sir
John Stanley, K.B. (died 29 June 1476), of Elford, Tamworth, and
Wigginton, Staffordshire, and Aldford, Etchells, and Alderley,
Cheshire, King’s esquire, Sheriff of Staffordshire, Knight of the
Shire for Staffordshire. This marriage is proved by at least two
records. The first is an abstract of a lawsuit dated Michaelmas term
1479, in which Sir William Norreys and his wife, Anne, sued John
Stanley, Esq., for a third part of the manors of Clifton-Campville,
Haunton, and Pipe, Staffordshire, which they claimed as the dower of
Anne of the dotation of John Stanley, Knt., her former husband [see
Colls. Hist. Staffordshire, n.s. 6(1) (1903): 121].

That this is the correct Sir William Norreys is proven by several
records which concern the disposition of his lands after his attainder
in 1484. These records show that at the time of his attainder, Sir
William had been in possession of three tracts of lands, namely
Braunstone, Leicestershire (which property he inherited through his
mother, Alice Merbroke); Keuwik[?], Norfolk (which property he held by
curtesy of England by his former marriage to Isabel Ingaldesthorpe);
and the chantry in the chapel of St. Katherine in Chipping Campden,
Gloucestershire [see Annual Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 9 (1848): 92,
93, 101; available online at
http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4cSAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA101&lpg=RA2-PA101&dq=Keuwik+Norfolk&source=bl&ots=3-Mamu9-Jq&sig=uUZRfB97lpxS8uzw7MU6DbhtmG4&hl=en&ei=b6m4S9rTNo_QsgPyrMjoDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Keuwik%20Norfolk&f=false].
The third property at Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire was a Stanley
family holding, the chantry having been founded in 1351 by a remote
Stanley ancestor, Sir Richard de Stafford, Lord Stafford. Sir William
Norreys was doubtless holding the chantry in right of his wife, Anne's
dower.

At the time of his attainder, Sir William Norreys was apparently
holding other lands at Aston-sub-Edge and Chipping Campden,
Gloucestershire (again doubtless in right of his wife's Stanley dower)
which lands were granted to Humphrey Stanley for life [see Rushen,
Hist. & Antiqs. of Chipping Campden (1899): 18–23].

I assume that Sir WIlliam Norreys' third wife, Anne, was a Horne as
stated by the Visitation of Berkshire. Evidence which indicates that
she was the daughter of Robert Horne the elder, by his wife, Joan
Fabyan, is advanced in an interesting article published in Notes and
Queries, 196 (1951): 463-468. The author there discusses heraldic
evidence found in two stained glass windows formerly located at
Sarsden House, Oxfordshire. Two of the shields [XXII and XXVI
specifically] shows the arms of Sir William Norrys set beside the arms
of Horne and Fabyan. However, the author mistakenly calls Sir William
Norreys' wife, Joan Horne, whereas as we see above his wife from 1479
until at least 1484 was named Anne, and she is called Anne Horne in
the visitation record.

Assuming that Sir William Norreys had only one wife, Anne, and that
she was a Horne, the matter remains as to whether or not she
previously married a Harcourt. She can not possibly have been the
widow of Sir John Harcourt as stated in the Visitation, as Sir John
Harcourt was Sir William Norreys' own brother-in-law, he being married
to his sister, Anne Norreys. Following Sir John Harcourt's death in
1485, his widow, Anne Norreys, married John Grey, Esq.

On the other hand, I've found a reference online which indicates that
Lipscomb (which source I have not consulted) allegedly states that a
William Harcourt married an Anne Horne. If correct, then I assume
that Anne Horne married (1st) William Harcourt; (2nd) Sir John
Stanley; and (3rd) Sir William Norreys. Further research needs to be
done to confirm Anne Horne's various marriages.

Sir William Norreys and his third wife, Anne Horne, are alleged to
have had several children, including a son, Lionel Norreys. The
editor of the Notes and Queries article mentioned above states that
Lionel Norreys was named a feoffee to uses of John Horne's lands in
1514, and that he was a remainderman in John Horne's will proved in
1526 (P.C.C. Porche 10). This evidence provides additional
confirmation of a Norreys-Horne intermarriage.

As for other particulars of Sir William Norryes' life, I find that in
the period, 1468–72, James Staverton sued Sir William Norys, then
Sheriff of Berkshire, in Chancery regarding the detention on suspicion
of felony, complainant having bought from John Coldon beasts alleged
to be stolen. In the period, 1476–80, or 1483–5, as “William Norrys,
Knt., late the husband of Isabel, marchioness of Montagu,” Sir William
sued Christopher Sharp in Chancery regarding the forging of his seal
to a deed and suing thereon in Essex, where the jury would favour
him. Sir William Norreys died shortly before 10 Jan. 1507.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John

2010-04-04 21:06:31 UTC

See notes interleaved below....

On Apr 4, 9:15 am, Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com> wrote:
[snip]

Post by Douglas Richardson
At this point, things get rather murky as various secondary sources
state he married either Anne (or Joan) Horne, by whom he had further
issue. She is made to be either the widow of Sir John Harcourt, or
William Harcourt.
Actually contemporary records prove that she was Anne, widow of Sir
John Stanley, K.B. (died 29 June 1476), of Elford, Tamworth, and
Wigginton, Staffordshire, and Aldford, Etchells, and Alderley,
Cheshire, King’s esquire, Sheriff of Staffordshire, Knight of the
Shire for Staffordshire. This marriage is proved by at least two
records. The first is an abstract of a lawsuit dated Michaelmas term
1479, in which Sir William Norreys and his wife, Anne, sued John
Stanley, Esq., for a third part of the manors of Clifton-Campville,
Haunton, and Pipe, Staffordshire, which they claimed as the dower of
Anne of the dotation of John Stanley, Knt., her former husband [see
Colls. Hist. Staffordshire, n.s. 6(1) (1903): 121].
That this is the correct Sir William Norreys is proven by several
records which concern the disposition of his lands after his attainder
in 1484. These records show that at the time of his attainder, Sir
William had been in possession of three tracts of lands, namely
Braunstone, Leicestershire (which property he inherited through his
mother, Alice Merbroke); Keuwik[?], Norfolk (which property he held by
curtesy of England by his former marriage to Isabel Ingaldesthorpe);
and the chantry in the chapel of St. Katherine in Chipping Campden,
Gloucestershire [see Annual Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 9 (1848): 92,
93, 101; available online athttp://books.google.com/books?id=Y4cSAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA101&lpg=RA2-PA...].
The third property at Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire was a Stanley
family holding, the chantry having been founded in 1351 by a remote
Stanley ancestor, Sir Richard de Stafford, Lord Stafford. Sir William
Norreys was doubtless holding the chantry in right of his wife, Anne's
dower.
At the time of his attainder, Sir William Norreys was apparently
holding other lands at Aston-sub-Edge and Chipping Campden,
Gloucestershire (again doubtless in right of his wife's Stanley dower)
which lands were granted to Humphrey Stanley for life [see Rushen,
Hist. & Antiqs. of Chipping Campden (1899): 18–23].
I assume that Sir WIlliam Norreys' third wife, Anne, was a Horne as
stated by the Visitation of Berkshire. Evidence which indicates that
she was the daughter of Robert Horne the elder, by his wife, Joan
Fabyan, is advanced in an interesting article published in Notes and
Queries, 196 (1951): 463-468. The author there discusses heraldic
evidence found in two stained glass windows formerly located at
Sarsden House, Oxfordshire. Two of the shields [XXII and XXVI
specifically] shows the arms of Sir William Norrys set beside the arms
of Horne and Fabyan. However, the author mistakenly calls Sir William
Norreys' wife, Joan Horne, whereas as we see above his wife from 1479
until at least 1484 was named Anne, and she is called Anne Horne in
the visitation record.

One source for the name Joan for the 2nd wife of Sir William Norreys
may be a pedigree of the Fettiplace family in Misc. Gen. et Her, 5th
ser., 2;184, which lists "Joan" as the 3rd wife of Norreys and gives
her a sister Anne mar. to John Marshall. (Their mother Joan Fabian
[or Fabyan] mar. (1) Robert Fabian, (2) John Fettiplace, (3) John
Estbury) In this source Joan [sic] the wife of Sir William Norreys is
not given any other spouses.

Post by Douglas Richardson
Assuming that Sir William Norreys had only one wife, Anne, and that
she was a Horne, the matter remains as to whether or not she
previously married a Harcourt. She can not possibly have been the
widow of Sir John Harcourt as stated in the Visitation, as Sir John
Harcourt was Sir William Norreys' own brother-in-law, he being married
to his sister, Anne Norreys. Following Sir John Harcourt's death in
1485, his widow, Anne Norreys, married John Grey, Esq.
On the other hand, I've found a reference online which indicates that
Lipscomb (which source I have not consulted) allegedly states that a
William Harcourt married an Anne Horne. If correct, then I assume
that Anne Horne married (1st) William Harcourt; (2nd) Sir John
Stanley; and (3rd) Sir William Norreys. Further research needs to be
done to confirm Anne Horne's various marriages.

This is perhaps the on-line source mentioned above which references
Lipscomb:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6EyJAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=&f=false

The reference here is to Lipscomb 4:590, which says that Sir William
Harcourt, who had a will dated 4 Jan 1471 and proved 2 May 1494 [sic],
was married to Anne, dau. of Thomas [not Robert] Horne. This Sir
William was a younger brother of Sir Robert Harcourt, KG, who mar.
Margaret Byron. Sir William and his wife Anne Horne are not indicated
by Lipscomb to have had any issue, nor is Anne indicated to have had
any other marriages.

The on-line source above says that this Sir William Harcourt was
sheriff of Oxfordshire and Berkshire 1491-2, 1503-4, and 1510-11.
Based on the date his will was proved, at least the latter two tenures
must have been a different William Harcourt - perhaps his nephew
William, son of Sir Richard of Witham and Edith St. Clair. In
addition, if Sir William Harcourt was living 1591-2 and died by 1594,
his wife Anne Horne clearly cannot be the Anne (or Joan) Horne who was
the 3rd wife of Sir William Norreys (d. 1507) in at least 1579 and
1584 as noted earlier in this thread.

As to the the previous Stanley marriage of Sir William Norrey's wife
Anne, it's worth noting that none of the (admittedly incomplete and
contradictory) pedigrees of the family of Stanley of Elford show a
marriage with an Anne Horne. Certainly not conclusive, but
interesting....

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-04 21:13:31 UTC

Dear Newsgroup ~

Concrete confirmation that Anne, wife of Sir William Norreys, was
indeed a daughter of Robert Horne, of London, by his wife, Joan
Fabian, can be found in the book, Collections towards a Parochial
History of Berkshire, published in 1783. On page 58 is a transcript
of a contemporary record dated c.1525 in which prayers were requested
for the souls of various siblings of William Fettiplace, of East
Shefford, Berkshire, including "Robert Horne, John Horne, John Horne,
and Madam Ann Horn" who are styled "brothers and sister by the
mother's side" and also for the soul of Sir William Norrys "husband of
the said Madam Ann."

William Fettiplace's parents were John Fettiplace and his wife, Joan
Fabian, widow of Robert Horne. Thus it is clear that Sir William
Norreys' third wife was definitely Anne Horne, the half-sister of
William Fettiplace.

A snippet view of part of this information may be viewed at the
following weblinks:

http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=zXVbAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22Sir+William+Norrys%22&q=Ann#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=zXVbAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22Sir+William+Norrys%22&q=%22Sir+William+Norrys%22#search_anchor

John Fettiplace and his wife, Joan Fabian, are ancestors of the
prominent colonial immigrant, Governor Thomas Dudley, of
Massachusetts. Thus Anne Horne, wife of Sir William Norrys, is a
distant aunt several generations back to Governor Dudley. For
Governor Dudley's descent from the Fettiplace family, see the
following weblink to an online database prepared by Cheryl Varner:

http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=:2753682&id=I29021

As for Sir William Norreys' 1st wife, Joan Vere, I find she was living
in 1467-8, when she was mentioned in contemporary record of that date
concerning the household of Queen Elizabeth Wydeville, wife of King
Edward IV. Sir William Norreys was a chamber knight to King Edward IV
in this time period. This record has been published in two different
sources:

Bulletin John Rylands Library 50 (1967–68): 451.
Myers Crown, Household & Parliament (1985): 288.

A snippet view of this information may be viewed at the following
weblinks:

http://books.google.com/books?ei=tc24S_uHJ4rWsgOlxITpDA&ct=result&id=m2YaAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22sir+William+Norys%22&q=norreis#search_anchor

http://books.google.com/books?ei=tc24S_uHJ4rWsgOlxITpDA&ct=result&id=m2YaAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22sir+William+Norys%22&q=joanna#search_anchor

Best always, Douglas Richardson

John Briggs

2010-04-04 21:48:45 UTC

Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
Concrete confirmation that Anne, wife of Sir William Norreys, was
indeed a daughter of Robert Horne, of London, by his wife, Joan
Fabian, can be found in the book, Collections towards a Parochial
History of Berkshire, published in 1783. On page 58 is a transcript
of a contemporary record dated c.1525 in which prayers were requested
for the souls of various siblings of William Fettiplace, of East
Shefford, Berkshire, including "Robert Horne, John Horne, John Horne,
and Madam Ann Horn" who are styled "brothers and sister by the
mother's side" and also for the soul of Sir William Norrys "husband of
the said Madam Ann."
William Fettiplace's parents were John Fettiplace and his wife, Joan
Fabian, widow of Robert Horne. Thus it is clear that Sir William
Norreys' third wife was definitely Anne Horne, the half-sister of
William Fettiplace.
A snippet view of part of this information may be viewed at the
http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=zXVbAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22Sir+William+Norrys%22&q=Ann#search_anchor
http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=zXVbAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22Sir+William+Norrys%22&q=%22Sir+William+Norrys%22#search_anchor
John Fettiplace and his wife, Joan Fabian, are ancestors of the
prominent colonial immigrant, Governor Thomas Dudley, of
Massachusetts. Thus Anne Horne, wife of Sir William Norrys, is a
distant aunt several generations back to Governor Dudley. For
Governor Dudley's descent from the Fettiplace family, see the
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=:2753682&id=I29021
As for Sir William Norreys' 1st wife, Joan Vere, I find she was living
in 1467-8, when she was mentioned in contemporary record of that date
concerning the household of Queen Elizabeth Wydeville, wife of King
Edward IV. Sir William Norreys was a chamber knight to King Edward IV
in this time period. This record has been published in two different
Bulletin John Rylands Library 50 (1967–68): 451.
Myers Crown, Household& Parliament (1985): 288.
A snippet view of this information may be viewed at the following
http://books.google.com/books?ei=tc24S_uHJ4rWsgOlxITpDA&ct=result&id=m2YaAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22sir+William+Norys%22&q=norreis#search_anchor
http://books.google.com/books?ei=tc24S_uHJ4rWsgOlxITpDA&ct=result&id=m2YaAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22sir+William+Norys%22&q=joanna#search_anchor

I can't place a William Fettiplace in East Shefford at that time. The
manorial descent (VCH Berks vol.4) is Sir Thomas Fettiplace d. c.1447
(splendid alabaster tomb in the church), his son John d.1464, his son
Richard d.1510-11, his son John d.1524 (brasses in Purbeck marble tomb
recess/Easter Sepulchre to him and his wife Dorothy), his son Edmund
d.1541-2, his son Sir John d.1580.

--
John Briggs

John

2010-04-04 22:03:52 UTC

Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
Concrete confirmation that Anne, wife of Sir William Norreys, was
indeed a daughter of Robert Horne, of London, by his wife, Joan
Fabian, can be found in the book, Collections towards a Parochial
History of Berkshire, published in 1783. On page 58 is a transcript
of a contemporary record dated c.1525 in which prayers were requested
for the souls of various siblings of William Fettiplace, of East
Shefford, Berkshire, including "Robert Horne, John Horne, John Horne,
and Madam Ann Horn" who are styled "brothers and sister by the
mother's side" and also for the soul of Sir William Norrys "husband of
the said Madam Ann."
William Fettiplace's parents were John Fettiplace and his wife, Joan
Fabian, widow of Robert Horne. Thus it is clear that Sir William
Norreys' third wife was definitely Anne Horne, the half-sister of
William Fettiplace.
A snippet view of part of this information may be viewed at the
http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=...
http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=...
John Fettiplace and his wife, Joan Fabian, are ancestors of the
prominent colonial immigrant, Governor Thomas Dudley, of
Massachusetts. Thus Anne Horne, wife of Sir William Norrys, is a
distant aunt several generations back to Governor Dudley. For
Governor Dudley's descent from the Fettiplace family, see the
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=:2753682&id=I29021
As for Sir William Norreys' 1st wife, Joan Vere, I find she was living
in 1467-8, when she was mentioned in contemporary record of that date
concerning the household of Queen Elizabeth Wydeville, wife of King
Edward IV. Sir William Norreys was a chamber knight to King Edward IV
in this time period. This record has been published in two different
Bulletin John Rylands Library 50 (1967 68): 451.
Myers Crown, Household& Parliament (1985): 288.
A snippet view of this information may be viewed at the following
http://books.google.com/books?ei=tc24S_uHJ4rWsgOlxITpDA&ct=result&id=...
http://books.google.com/books?ei=tc24S_uHJ4rWsgOlxITpDA&ct=result&id=...

The pedigree of the Fettiplace family in MGH, 5th ser, 2:184-5
confirms the descent of the manor of East Shefford as you indicate.
But Richard Fettiplace (d. 1510-1) had a younger brother William, of
Childrey, Berkshire, who d. sp 26 Dec 1528 and is likely the one
mentioned in the sources referenced above. [Although it's hard to
tell from the snippet views....]

John Briggs

2010-04-04 22:57:50 UTC

Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
Concrete confirmation that Anne, wife of Sir William Norreys, was
indeed a daughter of Robert Horne, of London, by his wife, Joan
Fabian, can be found in the book, Collections towards a Parochial
History of Berkshire, published in 1783. On page 58 is a transcript
of a contemporary record dated c.1525 in which prayers were requested
for the souls of various siblings of William Fettiplace, of East
Shefford, Berkshire, including "Robert Horne, John Horne, John Horne,
and Madam Ann Horn" who are styled "brothers and sister by the
mother's side" and also for the soul of Sir William Norrys "husband of
the said Madam Ann."
William Fettiplace's parents were John Fettiplace and his wife, Joan
Fabian, widow of Robert Horne. Thus it is clear that Sir William
Norreys' third wife was definitely Anne Horne, the half-sister of
William Fettiplace.
A snippet view of part of this information may be viewed at the
http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=...
http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=...
John Fettiplace and his wife, Joan Fabian, are ancestors of the
prominent colonial immigrant, Governor Thomas Dudley, of
Massachusetts. Thus Anne Horne, wife of Sir William Norrys, is a
distant aunt several generations back to Governor Dudley. For
Governor Dudley's descent from the Fettiplace family, see the
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=:2753682&id=I29021
As for Sir William Norreys' 1st wife, Joan Vere, I find she was living
in 1467-8, when she was mentioned in contemporary record of that date
concerning the household of Queen Elizabeth Wydeville, wife of King
Edward IV. Sir William Norreys was a chamber knight to King Edward IV
in this time period. This record has been published in two different
Bulletin John Rylands Library 50 (1967 68): 451.
Myers Crown, Household& Parliament (1985): 288.
A snippet view of this information may be viewed at the following
http://books.google.com/books?ei=tc24S_uHJ4rWsgOlxITpDA&ct=result&id=...
http://books.google.com/books?ei=tc24S_uHJ4rWsgOlxITpDA&ct=result&id=...

Monumenta Germaniae Historica?

--
John Briggs

John

2010-04-04 23:18:23 UTC

Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
Concrete confirmation that Anne, wife of Sir William Norreys, was
indeed a daughter of Robert Horne, of London, by his wife, Joan
Fabian, can be found in the book, Collections towards a Parochial
History of Berkshire, published in 1783. On page 58 is a transcript
of a contemporary record dated c.1525 in which prayers were requested
for the souls of various siblings of William Fettiplace, of East
Shefford, Berkshire, including "Robert Horne, John Horne, John Horne,
and Madam Ann Horn" who are styled "brothers and sister by the
mother's side" and also for the soul of Sir William Norrys "husband of
the said Madam Ann."
William Fettiplace's parents were John Fettiplace and his wife, Joan
Fabian, widow of Robert Horne. Thus it is clear that Sir William
Norreys' third wife was definitely Anne Horne, the half-sister of
William Fettiplace.
A snippet view of part of this information may be viewed at the
http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=...
http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=...
John Fettiplace and his wife, Joan Fabian, are ancestors of the
prominent colonial immigrant, Governor Thomas Dudley, of
Massachusetts. Thus Anne Horne, wife of Sir William Norrys, is a
distant aunt several generations back to Governor Dudley. For
Governor Dudley's descent from the Fettiplace family, see the
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=:2753682&id=I29021
As for Sir William Norreys' 1st wife, Joan Vere, I find she was living
in 1467-8, when she was mentioned in contemporary record of that date
concerning the household of Queen Elizabeth Wydeville, wife of King
Edward IV. Sir William Norreys was a chamber knight to King Edward IV
in this time period. This record has been published in two different
Bulletin John Rylands Library 50 (1967 68): 451.
Myers Crown, Household& Parliament (1985): 288.
A snippet view of this information may be viewed at the following
http://books.google.com/books?ei=tc24S_uHJ4rWsgOlxITpDA&ct=result&id=...
http://books.google.com/books?ei=tc24S_uHJ4rWsgOlxITpDA&ct=result&id=...

Monumenta Germaniae Historica?
--
John Briggs

Sorry...Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica - published in England
1866-1938.

John Briggs

2010-04-05 12:19:27 UTC

Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
Concrete confirmation that Anne, wife of Sir William Norreys, was
indeed a daughter of Robert Horne, of London, by his wife, Joan
Fabian, can be found in the book, Collections towards a Parochial
History of Berkshire, published in 1783. On page 58 is a transcript
of a contemporary record dated c.1525 in which prayers were requested
for the souls of various siblings of William Fettiplace, of East
Shefford, Berkshire, including "Robert Horne, John Horne, John Horne,
and Madam Ann Horn" who are styled "brothers and sister by the
mother's side" and also for the soul of Sir William Norrys "husband of
the said Madam Ann."
William Fettiplace's parents were John Fettiplace and his wife, Joan
Fabian, widow of Robert Horne. Thus it is clear that Sir William
Norreys' third wife was definitely Anne Horne, the half-sister of
William Fettiplace.
A snippet view of part of this information may be viewed at the
http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=...
http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=...
John Fettiplace and his wife, Joan Fabian, are ancestors of the
prominent colonial immigrant, Governor Thomas Dudley, of
Massachusetts. Thus Anne Horne, wife of Sir William Norrys, is a
distant aunt several generations back to Governor Dudley. For
Governor Dudley's descent from the Fettiplace family, see the
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=:2753682&id=I29021
As for Sir William Norreys' 1st wife, Joan Vere, I find she was living
in 1467-8, when she was mentioned in contemporary record of that date
concerning the household of Queen Elizabeth Wydeville, wife of King
Edward IV. Sir William Norreys was a chamber knight to King Edward IV
in this time period. This record has been published in two different
Bulletin John Rylands Library 50 (1967 68): 451.
Myers Crown, Household& Parliament (1985): 288.
A snippet view of this information may be viewed at the following
http://books.google.com/books?ei=tc24S_uHJ4rWsgOlxITpDA&ct=result&id=...
http://books.google.com/books?ei=tc24S_uHJ4rWsgOlxITpDA&ct=result&id=...

Monumenta Germaniae Historica?

Sorry...Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica - published in England
1866-1938.

Ah, *that* MGH :-)

--
John Briggs

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-04 23:05:51 UTC

John ~

Here is a weblink to a biography of William Fettiplace (died 1528), of
Childrey, Berkshire. He is the man who requested prayers be said for
the souls of his half-sister, Anne Horne, and her husband, Sir William
Norrys.

http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/wfettiplace.html

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

John Briggs

2010-04-04 23:12:53 UTC

Post by Douglas Richardson
John ~
Here is a weblink to a biography of William Fettiplace (died 1528), of
Childrey, Berkshire. He is the man who requested prayers be said for
the souls of his half-sister, Anne Horne, and her husband, Sir William
Norrys.
http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/wfettiplace.html

Yes, found him now. I see that I noted the brass when I visited the
church in 1970!

--
John Briggs

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-04 23:14:51 UTC

Dear Newsgroup ~

Here is yet another series of snippet views to the Fettiplace-Horne
material in Collections towards a Parochial History of Berkshire,
published in 1783, pages 57-59.

In these views, it is clearly established that William Fettiplace,
Esq., was of Childrey, Berkshire. His deceased wife, Elizabeth, and
his parents, John and Joan Fettiplace, are mentioned in these views.

http://books.google.com/books?ei=H_a4S_63I47usgOKlYXpDA&ct=result&id=zXVbAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22Sir+William+Norrys%22&q=William+Fetyplace#search_anchor

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-06 17:21:09 UTC

Dear Newsgroup ~

To date we have evidence in hand that Anne Horne married (1st) John
Stanley, Knt., of Elford, Staffordshire (died 29 June 1476) and (2nd)
William Norreys, Knt., of Yattendon, Berkshire (died 1510). The
latter individual Sir William Norreys was the step-son of Margaret
Chedworth, Duchess of Norfolk.

Evidence for Anne Horne's two marriages is provided by a lawsuit
already posted here dated Michaelmas term 1479, in which Sir William
Norreys and his wife, Anne, sued John Stanley, Esq., for a third part
of the manors of Clifton-Campville, Haunton, and Pipe, Staffordshire,
which they claimed as the dower of Anne of the dotation of John
Stanley, Knt., her former husband [see Colls. Hist. Staffordshire,
n.s. 6(1) (1903): 121].

I've since found additional evidence which proves that Anne Horne and
Sir William Norreys were married before 31 Jan. 1377/8. In the book,
History and Antiquities of Staffordshire, by Stebbing Shaw, 2(1)
(1801): Appendix of Adds. & Corrs., page 10, the author cites an award
made between Humphrey Stanley, Esq., the executor of Sir John Stanley,
and William Norrys, knight, and Anne his wife regarding "such jewels
and other goods which late were John Stanley's, knight, sometime
husband to the seid Anne." By common assent, the jewels were
awarded to William Norrys and his wife, they then being in the
possession of Master William Heywode, Dean of Lincoln, Roger Marshall
in London, and a cup of gold in the keeping of Richard Dalton at
Worcester. This award is dated the last of January 17 Edward IV
[i.e. 1478].

As stated in an earlier post, Sir William Norreys was still the
husband of Anne, widow of Sir John Stanley, as late as 1484, when his
lands were attainted for rebellion and he was found to then be holding
lands at Aston-sub-Edge and Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire, and the
chantry in the chapel of St. Katherine in Chipping Campden,
Gloucestershire, all of which properties were Stanley family
properties that he surely held in right of his wife, Anne's dower.

Anne Horne was Sir John Stanley's third and final wife. I find that
the marriage between Sir John Stanley and Anne Horne took place after
4 August 1471, as proven by the following record which shows that
Elizabeth Vernon, the 2nd wife of Sir John Stanley, was still alive on
that date.

Source: A2A Catalogue
Birmingham City Archives: Elford Hall Coll., MS 3878/45

Grant dated 4 Aug. 1471 from John de Stretey of Norhamton, son of
William Stretey formerly of Elford and Margaret his wife to John
Stanley, Knt., lord of Elford and Elizabeth, his wife, of lands with
appurtenances in Elford and Haselhoor Haselour both in co. Stafford)
(abs. of doc. available at http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).

Next, it was stated in the visitation of Berkshire that Sir WIlliam
Norreys' wife, Anne Horne, was the widow of Sir John Harcourt [see
Benolte et al., Four Vis. of Berkshire 1532, 1566, 1623 & 1665–6 2
(H.S.P. 57) (1908): 184–186 (Norris ped.]. Sir John Harcourt was
actually married to Sir William Norreys' sister, Anne Norreys, as
indicated by the following record:

Ronton Chartulary (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 4(1)) (1883): 271–272
(Harcourt ped.: “De dicto Roberto Harcourt descendit jus et hereditas
cuidam Johanni Harecourt tanquam filio et heredi, qui desponsavit
Annam, filiam Johannis Noris.”).

Following Sir John Harcourt's death in 1485, his widow, Anne, married
John Grey, Esq., as indicated by the following Chancery lawsuit found
in the online National Archives Catalogue:

C 1/137/36
Date: 1486–93, or 1504–15
John Grey, esquire, and Anne, his wife, previously the wife of John
Harcourt, of Stanton Harcourt. v. Richard Byrd, clerk, Robert Secole,
and Thomas Bette, feoffees to uses.: The manor of Stanton Harcourt,
late of the said John Harcourt.: Oxford.

So clearly Anne Horne can not have married Sir John Harcourt, nor did
Sir John Harcourt's widow, Anne, married Sir WIlliam Norreys.
However, as noted earlier (and commented by John) Lipscomb, History
and Antiquities of Buckingham, 4:590, states that a Sir William
Harcourt, who had a will dated 4 Jan 1471 and proved 2 May 1494 [sic],
was married to Anne, dau. of Thomas [not Robert] Horne. This Sir
William Harcourt was a younger son of Thomas Harcourt, Knt., of
Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire, by Jane (or Joan), daughter of Robert
Fraunceys, Knt., of Foremark, Derbyshire, Thus this Sir William
Harcourt would have been an uncle of the Sir John Harcourt who married
Anne Norreys, sister of Sir William Norreys.

But did the marriage between Sir William Harcourt and Anne Horne take
place? The following Chancery lawsuit in the National Archives
online Catalogue shows that a Sir William Harcourt died in the right
time period, he being survived by a wife, Anne:

C 1/45/132

Date: 1433-1443, or more likely 1467-1472
Anne, relict of William Harecourte, knight. v. The sheriffs of London:
Action brought by Sir William Bonyfaunt and Master William Dawbeney,
executors of Master Thomas Bonyfaunte, against complainant, as
executrix of her said late husband, a position which as yet she is
loth either to accept or to refuse. END OF QUOTE.

Master Thomas Bonyfaunte named in the above lawsuit is mentioned in a
snippet view in the following weblink, but I'm unable to see the date
for this record:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rAQiAQAAIAAJ&q=Thomas+Bonyfaunte&dq=Thomas+Bonyfaunte&hl=en&ei=iFG7S_2uEY-EswP68riTBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg

Elsewhere, however, I find that Master Thomas Bonyfaunt was Prebendary
of Thame in the period, 1465-1470 [see King, Fasti Ecclesiae
Anglicanae 1300-1541: volume 1, avaiable at the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=32655&strquery=Thomas%20Bonyfaunt].

Thus, the latter date for the lawsuit 1467-1472 seems certain. I
might add that Master William Daubeney also named in the lawsuit is
doubtless the man of that name who was Searcher of the Port of London
in 1480 and Clerk of the Jewels in 1483-4 [see Sidney J. Herrtage ,
English Charlemagne Romances‎ (reprinted 2008), pg. x].

So did Anne, widow of Sir William Harcourt, marry Sir John Stanley?
For evidence of this marriage, I have found a record in Wrottesley's
Staffordshre Plea Rolls published in Collections Hist. Staffs. n.s.
6(1)) (1903):150, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=xijQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA140&dq=Wrottesley+Legh+Stanley&hl=en&ei=9NS6S6SZDYTetgPH9YGPBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Stanley&f=false

This record is allegedly dated Michaelmas term, 1 Richard III [1483].
It reads as follows: "Warwickshire. The Sheriff has been ordered to
distrain John Stanley, knight, and Anne his wife, late wife of William
Harecourt, knight, late Sheriff of co. Warwick, to produce William
Brendwode, of Little Bromwyche, yoman, who had been detained in prison
and for whom the said William Harecourt was answerable, and they did
not appear. The Sheriff was therefore ordered to distrain again and
produce them on the Octaves of St. Hillary." END OF QUOTE.

While above record is dated 1483, I assume this must be a dating
error, as there are many records which prove that Sir John Stanley
died in 1476. Also, as shown above, Sir John Stanley married Anne
Horne sometime after 1471, and following his death in 1476, Anne
married again before 31 Jan. 1477/8 Sir William Norreys.

Checking the list of Warwickshire sheriffs, I find that Sir William
Harcourt served as Sheriff of Warwickshire way back in 1463-1464 [see
List of Sheriffs for England & Wales (PRO Lists and Indexes 9) (1898):
145]. It seems incomprehensible to me that there should be legal
wrangling over a man detained in the prison for whom William Harcourt
the Sheriff was "answerable," which matter should come to the king's
attention 20 years after William Harcourt was Sheriff. As best I can
tell, this record should date between 1471 (date of Sir William
Harcourt's will) and 1476 (death of Sir John Stanley).

As for this Sir William Harcourt, I've found several records of this
man who was active in the 1460's up through 1471/2. Sir William
Harcourt was employed by the Stafford family, Dukes of Buckingham, as
Steward of Maxstoke, Warwickshire in the period, 1460-1466 [see
Rawcliffe, The Staffords: Earls of Stafford and Dukes of Buckingham,
1394-1521, pg. 205, available at this weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0y89AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA205&dq=William+Harcourt+Maxstoke&lr=&cd=2#v=onepage&q=William%20Harcourt%20Maxstoke&f=false].

In 1462 William Harcourt, of Maxstoke, Warwickshire, then an esquire,
was bound to the king with his brother, Sir Richard Harcourt [see
Wedgwood, Hist. of Parl. 1 (1936): 421].
Sir William Harcourt was likewise involved in a land transaction
involving property at Maxstoke, Warwickshire as late as 1467, as
indicated by the following record taken from the A2A Catalogue:

Gloucestershire Archives: Hale Family of Alderley

D1086/T103/9 1467

Contents:
11 March, 7 Edward IV
Gift
(1) George Jeke, son of Thomas Jeke
(2) William Harecourt, kt., John Heton, esq., Thomas Waldyene, John
Boteler and Thomas Draper
2 parcels of meadow in manor of Maxstoke in Long Meadow, one of which
lies between meadow of Prior of Maxstoke and that of Simon de
Bollenhull, the other being called Bestcroft. END OF QUOTE.

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

Sir William Harcourt appears to be the man of that name found in the
following record also drawn from the A2A Catalogue:

Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record Office: Catalogue of the
deeds and papers of Winstanley of Braunstone

Lease (Indenture) DE728/88 25th July 11 Edward IV [1471]

Contents:
Parties:- 1) William Harecourt, knight;
2) Richard Reynold of Braunston next to Leycester.
William leases to Richard one messuage and 3 acres of land with
appurtenances in Braunstone, the messuage being at the end of the
village towards the Forest between the Kings Highway and the land of
the Rector of Glenfield, and the three acres called Brigge Acres lie
in the fields of Braunston. To hold to Richard and his heirs and
assigns for ever at annual rent to William and his heirs and assigns
of 3 shillings at Feasts of Purification of Blessed Virgin Mary, St.
Michael Angel and Pentecost. (Contingent clauses for distraint on non
payment of rent). END OF QUOTE

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Lastly, I see there is a reference that Sir William Harcourt was
Steward to George Plantagenet, Duke of Clarence in 11 Edward IV [i.e.
1471-2] [see Gentleman's Magazine, 78 (1795): 990, which item is
available at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=LcnPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA990&dq=William+Harcourt+knight&lr=&cd=30#v=onepage&q=William%20Harcourt%20knight&f=false
+ + + + + + + + + + +

So it appears that Sir William Harcourt was active in the period,
1460-1467, and was Sheriff in 1463-4, and left a will dated in 1471.
He died in or before 1472, and was survived by a wife, Anne, as
indicated by two records cited above, one of which indicates that Anne
re-married Sir John Stanley.

With regard to the dating of the 1483 item, I have no reason to doubt
Lipscomb's statement that Sir William Harcourt's wife was Anne Horne.
We know from a record above that he left a widow in or before 1472
named Anne. We also know from other records that Anne Horne was
subsequently the wife of Sir John Stanley and Sir William Norreys.
Anne Horne can not have married Sir John Stanley's son, also named Sir
John Stanley, as he survived until 1508. Also I have evidence which
shows that the younger Sir John Stanley's wife's name was named
Elizabeth.

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-06 19:06:16 UTC

Dear Newsgroup ~

As a followup to my post earlier today, I've found a reference to an
inquisition post mortem for Dame Anne Norres, widow, dated 14 Nov
1505. An abstract of this inquisition is published in Calendar of
Inquisitions Post Mortem and Other Analogous Documents, Henry VII,
Volume 3, published in 1955, page 97.

The beginning of the inquisition reads in part:

Writ of Diem clausit wanting ; inquisition, Friday after St. Martin,
21 Henry VII, after the death of Dame Anne Norres, widow, by virtue of
a writ of diem clausit.

I'm only able to see a snippet view of the remaining part of this
inquisition, but it refers to an earlier settlement made by Sir Thomas
Erdyngton of the manor of Braunstone and a tenement in Bosworth,
Leicestershire on William Harecourt, knight, and the heirs male of his
body, with successive remainders in tail male to Robert Harecourt,
knight, and Richard Harecourt, knight.

The snippet view of this document may be viewed at the following
weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=akBnAAAAMAAJ&q=%22William+Harecourt+knight%22&dq=%22William+Harecourt+knight%22&hl=en&ei=bXW7S4qPO47OsgOojKn3BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA

I assume this inquisition states that Dame Anne Norres was the widow
of Sir William Harecourt, who I showed in my earlier post today had
leased a messuage at Braunstone, Leicestershire in 1471 to Richard
Reynold.

This particular volume of inquisitions is not available here in Salt
Lake City. If anyone has access to this volume, I'd appreciate it if
they would post a transcript of this record here on the newsgroup.

As for final concrete evidence that Anne, widow of Sir William
Harcourt, married Sir William Norreys, I present the following record
published in Report on the MSS of Reginald Rawdon Hastings, Esq. 1
(Hist. MSS Comm. 78) (1928), pages 26-27.

"[Date]: 12 _____, 1509. Bargain and sale, for 40l., by Thomas Nevill
of co. Stafford to Edmund Bury of Brightwell, co. Oxford and William
Young of co. Berks, of all that part of the lands etc. there [i.e.,
Braunstone, Leicestershire] which descended to Lettice, wife of the
said Thomas, in coparceny with her sisters as cousins and heirs of Sir
William Harcourt, knight, the reversion whereof after the death of
dame Anne (now deceased), widow of Sir William Norris knight, and
sometime wife of the said Sir William Harcourt, the said Thomas and
Lettice sold by Fine to Richard Coke merchant of Coventry deceased,
from whose son and heir, William Coke, the said Thomas had since
repurchased it. Damaged. Seal." END OF QUOTE.

So there can be no doubt that Anne, widow of Sir William Harcourt,
married Sir William Norreys. And, we've seen from other evidence
presented in this thread that Anne, wife of Sir William Norreys, was
definitely Anne Horne, daughter of Robert Horne, Alderman of London,
and his wife, Joan Fabian.

As for Lettice, wife of Thomas Neville, named in the record above, she
can be identified as the daughter of Sir John Harcourt (died 1485), of
Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire, by his wife, Anne Norreys. Lettice
Neville was thus the great niece of Sir William Harcourt. She was
also the niece of Anne Horne's final husband, Sir William Norreys.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Monica Kanellis

2010-04-08 16:57:42 UTC

Post by Douglas Richardson
As for Lettice, wife of Thomas Neville, named in the record above, she
can be identified as the daughter of Sir John Harcourt (died 1485), of
Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire, by his wife, Anne Norreys. Lettice
Neville was thus the great niece of Sir William Harcourt. She was
also the niece of Anne Horne's final husband, Sir William Norreys.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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Is this the same Lettice Neville who also married Sir Humphrey Peshale or
Pershall? Their son, Hugh, married Isabel Stanley (dau. of Sir John Stanley
of Elford & Maud Vernon?).

Was Anne Horne's Sir John Stanley also married to Isabel Lathom?

best,

MK

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-08 17:40:30 UTC

My comment are interspersed below. DR

On Apr 8, 10:57 am, Monica Kanellis <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<<Is this the same Lettice Neville who also married Sir Humphrey
Peshale or Pershall? Their son, Hugh, married Isabel Stanley (dau. of
Sir John Stanley of Elford & Maud <<Vernon?).

Lettice Harcourt married (1st) Humphrey Peshale, Esq. (died 1498), of
Tean (in Checkley), Staffordshire, and (2nd) Thomas Neville, Esq.
(died 1546), of Binholme (in Pershore), Worcestershire.

By her 1st marriage, Lettice Harcourt had one son, Richard Peshale,
and three daughters, Eleanor (wife of Humphrey Wolryche, Esq.), Joan
(wife of Richard Sandforde), and Elizabeth (wife of Richard Alsop).
Lettice Harcourt also had three daughters by her 2nd marriage to
Thomas Neville, including Ellen (wife of Kenelm Bucke).

Lettice Harcourt was actually the step-mother of Sir Hugh Peshale,
who married Isabel Stanley.

<<Was Anne Horne's Sir John Stanley also married to Isabel Lathom?

No. Sir John Stanley (died 1476) married (1st) Cecily Arderne; (2nd)
Elizabeth Vernon, widow of John Vampage, and (3rd) Anne Horne, widow
of Sir William Harcourt.

By his 2nd marriage, Sir John Stanley had several children, including
a daughter, Isabel (wife of Hugh Peshale, Knt.).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Monica Kanellis

2010-04-08 20:04:34 UTC

Post by Douglas Richardson
My comment are interspersed below. DR
<<Is this the same Lettice Neville who also married Sir Humphrey
Peshale or Pershall? Their son, Hugh, married Isabel Stanley (dau. of
Sir John Stanley of Elford & Maud <<Vernon?).
Lettice Harcourt married (1st) Humphrey Peshale, Esq. (died 1498), of
Tean (in Checkley), Staffordshire, and (2nd) Thomas Neville, Esq.
(died 1546), of Binholme (in Pershore), Worcestershire.
By her 1st marriage, Lettice Harcourt had one son, Richard Peshale,
and three daughters, Eleanor (wife of Humphrey Wolryche, Esq.), Joan
(wife of Richard Sandforde), and Elizabeth (wife of Richard Alsop).
Lettice Harcourt also had three daughters by her 2nd marriage to
Thomas Neville, including Ellen (wife of Kenelm Bucke).
Lettice Harcourt was actually the step-mother of Sir Hugh Peshale,
who married Isabel Stanley.
<<Was Anne Horne's Sir John Stanley also married to Isabel Lathom?
No. Sir John Stanley (died 1476) married (1st) Cecily Arderne; (2nd)
Elizabeth Vernon, widow of John Vampage, and (3rd) Anne Horne, widow
of Sir William Harcourt.
By his 2nd marriage, Sir John Stanley had several children, including
a daughter, Isabel (wife of Hugh Peshale, Knt.).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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Thanks! I have corrected tree to show Hugh's mother as Agnes Egerton. Hugh
and Isabel were great grandparents of Henry VIII's illegitimate son, Henry
Fitzroy.

Of interest to me is that William Norrey's sister (= Ralph Vernon) is the
grandmother of Sir John Savage (of Bosworth) who was the son of Katherine
Stanley whose father was the first cousin of Sir John Stanley = Anne Horne.

best,

MK

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-04 16:50:28 UTC

Dear Newsgroup ~

In this discussion of Margaret Chedworth, Duchess of Norfolk, and her
issue, it is interesting to note that we have seen connections made to
a variety of people in the fabric of medieval English life: Richard
Neville, the famous Kingmaker, John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, Henry
Marney, 1st Lord Marney, John Neville, Marquess of Montagu, John
Chedworth, Bishop of Lincoln, and the knightly families of Stanley,
Harcourt, Bedingfield, and Radmylde, as well as Nicholas Wyfold, Lord
Mayor of London,and William Chedworth, Clerk of the Chamber of
London. These families surely crisscross through the ancestry of many
people who post here on the newsgroup. My good friend and editor,
Kimball Everingham, for example, is a lineal descendant of Anne
Norreys, wife of Sir John Harcourt, who has been mentioned in this
thread.

It is a pity that so many secondary sources which I've consulted
regarding these families contain much inaccurate or false
information. This illustrates once again the importance of using
original primary records to buttress all of our geneealogical
conclusions.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-09 06:00:35 UTC

Dear Newsgroup ~

Last week, I presented evidence which showed that Elizabeth (or
Isabel) Wyfold, wife of Sir Henry Marney, 1st Lord Marney, was
actually married twice. Her first husband was her step-brother, John
Norris (or Norreys), Esq., by whom she had a son and heir, Edmund
Norris (or Norreys), living in 1508. Her second husband was Sir Henry
Marney, 1st Lord Marney (died 1523), by whom she had a daughter, Grace
Marney, wife of Sir Edmund Bedingfield.

I subsequently posted an item from the National Archives online
catalogye which indicates that Elizabeth (or Isabel) Wyfold had yet
another child by her 1st marriage, namely Amy Norreys, who I presumed
was heiress to her brother, Edmund Norris, in or after 1508, which is
the last date he was known to be living. That record reads as
follows:

C 1/151/124 Amy, daughter of John Norreis, esquire, deceased. v.
William Norreis, feoffee to uses.: The manors of Goldston, Nelmes, and
Poulders, and land and rent in Bledlow, Princes Risborough, and Monks
Risborough.: Kent, Bucks. 1486-1493, or 1504-1515

SInce my posts last week, I've located yet another record in the
National Archives which appears to involve this same matter as the
above lawsuit. In this new record, Amy Norreys is called Anne
Norreys. Over the years, I've determined that the names Amy and Anne
are occasionally interchangeable in records of this time period, much
like Edmund and Edward are.

Source: National Archives Catalogue
C 4/82/99: Anne, daughter of John Norreys v. Sir William Norreys:
replication
Date of document: 1501 Jan 1 - 1600 Dec 31

So it would appear that Isabel Wyfold's daughter was named Amy (or
Anne) Norreys. Amy (or Anne) Norreys' maternal grandmother was
Margaret Chedworth, Duchess of Norfolk.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson

2010-04-09 14:46:26 UTC