Uber faces fresh regulations from TfL ahead of licence appeal

<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/02/15/uber-faces-fresh-regulations-tfl-ahead-licence-appeal/>

Someone Somewhere

2018-02-16 11:25:41 UTC

Post by Recliner
<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/02/15/uber-faces-fresh-regulations-tfl-ahead-licence-appeal/>

You've got to admire their thinking - how would a woman only service
work with respect to ride sharing? What if I didn't want to share a
ride with someone who was drunk / black / disabled / noisy eater?

Presumably the odds to > 1 woman wanting to go basically the same way
are lower than > 1 person wanting to do the same and hence the costs are
somewhat higher.

From what I remember Uber reduces the price by 25% if you accept
sharing, so on that basis it reckons that on average they have a 50%
chance of matching you with another rider, if you remove all males and
mixed-sex couples from that equation, presumably it falls to <25% and
hence the discount (as you wouldn't be able to discriminate on price)
would be more like 10% - not worth the difference.

If you don't want to share - there's an obvious answer, pay the full
fare. If you want to save money and ride share accept you may share
with someone you may disagree with or dislike. Note you don't get to
choose who you share a train carriage or upper deck of a bus with -
places that are even more out of sight of a driver.

Roland Perry

2018-02-16 12:18:12 UTC

Post by Someone Somewhere
Presumably the odds to > 1 woman wanting to go basically the same way
are lower than > 1 person wanting to do the same and hence the costs
are somewhat higher.
From what I remember Uber reduces the price by 25% if you accept
sharing, so on that basis it reckons that on average they have a 50%
chance of matching you with another rider, if you remove all males and
mixed-sex couples from that equation, presumably it falls to <25% and
hence the discount (as you wouldn't be able to discriminate on price)
would be more like 10% - not worth the difference.

The calculation isn't as simple as that, because you have to bear in
mind that sources and sinks of Uber trips will often be pre-disposed to
have a skewed demographic.

A friend went to a West End play the other week, and noted that the
audience was almost entirely women, so Ubers picking up after the final
curtain would have much less trouble pairing up females.

And all this ignores the fact that if there's a demand for 30 potential
rideshares along a particular corridor, 20 men and 10 women, someone
like Uber should easily be able to consolidate that into 10 male-only
cabs and 5 female-only.

Cab-sharing is anathema in the USA, but still gets forced on the public
at such as big trade show events, where the marshalls will collect
together pairs of customers heading for the same hotel at the end of the
day [no sharing, no ride]. And yet would exercise discretion in not
creating a male/female stranger-pairing.

--
Roland Perry

Someone Somewhere

2018-02-16 14:08:17 UTC

Post by Someone Somewhere
Presumably the odds to > 1 woman wanting to go basically the same way
are lower than > 1 person wanting to do the same and hence the costs
are somewhat higher.
From what I remember Uber reduces the price by 25% if you accept
sharing, so on that basis it reckons that on average they have a 50%
chance of matching you with another rider, if you remove all males
and mixed-sex couples from that equation, presumably it falls to <25%
and hence the discount (as you wouldn't be able to discriminate on
price) would be more like 10% - not worth the difference.

Yes - but I said on average - there are events where such demographic
skews can occur, but on average they don't and given the nature of Uber
they only have a handful of minutes to match together riders so they
can't take advantage of doing it on a wider basis in advance knowing
that there is a tolerance of 15 minutes or whatever to pick people up
after a show.

Post by Roland Perry
And all this ignores the fact that if there's a demand for 30 potential
rideshares along a particular corridor, 20 men and 10 women, someone
like Uber should easily be able to consolidate that into 10 male-only
cabs and 5 female-only.

But it isn't a corridor - it's more of a star topology with widish arms
(denoting the tolerance between different riders destinations). So
there is only currently a small possibility that 2 (or more) riders want
to go the same way, and that possibility gets smaller once you start
introducing selection criteria, to the point where they can't offer a
meaningful discount to make it attractive.

My own experience with UberPool (out of probably 30 journeys) is that
you roughly 50% of the time end up sharing a car with people (and
probably 50% of those are people I wouldn't want to share a car with
again - I had one who couldn't find the car for 10 minutes and then as
soon as they got in demanded the driver find a toilet for them...)

Of course, with a full pre-booking system (as opposed to a just in time
system) you can far better optimise it and maybe reduce the odds of
matching people, but that's not how UberPool works (and having to
pre-book a car some time in advance would diminish the attractiveness of
the service to some people).

Roland Perry

2018-02-18 12:36:25 UTC

Post by Someone Somewhere
Presumably the odds to > 1 woman wanting to go basically the same
way are lower than > 1 person wanting to do the same and hence the
costs are somewhat higher.
From what I remember Uber reduces the price by 25% if you accept
sharing, so on that basis it reckons that on average they have a 50%
chance of matching you with another rider, if you remove all males
and mixed-sex couples from that equation, presumably it falls to <25%
and hence the discount (as you wouldn't be able to discriminate on
price) would be more like 10% - not worth the difference.

Yes - but I said on average - there are events where such demographic
skews can occur, but on average they don't

Statistically that's bad science. The demographically skewed situations
can't be "averaged out" by demographically neutral ones. Every single
skewed one shifts the final result.

Post by Someone Somewhere
and given the nature of Uber they only have a handful of minutes to
match together riders so they can't take advantage of doing it on a
wider basis in advance knowing that there is a tolerance of 15 minutes
or whatever to pick people up after a show.

If 40 people leave a show in 15 minutes, if it's 50:50 mail and female
there are 20 pairing opportunities. If it's skewed toward females the
pairing opportunities increase. If it's skewed towards males then at
worst it leaves more cabs for women to take on their own (which is the
base scenario).

Post by Roland Perry
And all this ignores the fact that if there's a demand for 30
potential rideshares along a particular corridor, 20 men and 10
women, someone like Uber should easily be able to consolidate that
into 10 male-only cabs and 5 female-only.

You are saying it doesn't scale. Perhaps that's true a lot of the time.
But if it *is* scaling enough to pair *any* people together, adding a
same-sex criterion isn't going to make a huge difference,it just means
working harder to persuade people to be a bit more patient (but still
within their target pick-up time).

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2018-02-18 13:23:33 UTC

Post by Someone Somewhere
Presumably the odds to > 1 woman wanting to go basically the same
way are lower than > 1 person wanting to do the same and hence the
costs are somewhat higher.
From what I remember Uber reduces the price by 25% if you accept
sharing, so on that basis it reckons that on average they have a 50%
chance of matching you with another rider, if you remove all males
and mixed-sex couples from that equation, presumably it falls to <25%
and hence the discount (as you wouldn't be able to discriminate on
price) would be more like 10% - not worth the difference.

Yes - but I said on average - there are events where such demographic
skews can occur, but on average they don't

Statistically that's bad science. The demographically skewed situations
can't be "averaged out" by demographically neutral ones. Every single
skewed one shifts the final result.

Post by Roland Perry
And all this ignores the fact that if there's a demand for 30
potential rideshares along a particular corridor, 20 men and 10
women, someone like Uber should easily be able to consolidate that
into 10 male-only cabs and 5 female-only.

I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from.

All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with options
for "women-only" taxi journeys, clearer policies for reporting
offences, greater data sharing, how customer data is handled, improved
complaint-handling and improved conditions for drivers. It's the last
of these which is significant for the likes of Uber, as it includes
"reasonable working hours including appropriate breaks throughout
their shift". It mentions that Uber recently introduced an hours cap
for drivers, set at 10 hours, after which they are locked out of the
app.

Robin

2018-02-18 13:31:31 UTC

On 18/02/2018 13:23, Recliner wrote:
<snip>

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from.
All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with options
for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means only
women passengers or includes the driver.

And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option, there
can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Recliner

2018-02-18 13:48:50 UTC

Post by Robin
<snip>

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from.
All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with options
for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means only
women passengers or includes the driver.

Such services always have a woman driver.

Post by Robin
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option, there
can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Roland Perry

2018-02-18 14:56:57 UTC

Post by Recliner
All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with options
for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means only
women passengers or includes the driver.

Such services always have a woman driver.

Is that an option on the Uber app?

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2018-02-18 15:18:33 UTC

Post by Recliner
All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with options
for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means only
women passengers or includes the driver.

Such services always have a woman driver.

Is that an option on the Uber app?

I don't think that Uber currently offers the women-only option. This is
just a TfL proposal. No doubt, if TfL insists that such options be offered,
Uber and the many other private hire companies will be obliged to comply.

You seem to think this whole story is about Uber. It's not.

Someone Somewhere

2018-02-18 15:36:05 UTC

Post by Recliner
All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with options
for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means only
women passengers or includes the driver.

Such services always have a woman driver.

Is that an option on the Uber app?

I don't think that Uber currently offers the women-only option. This is
just a TfL proposal. No doubt, if TfL insists that such options be offered,
Uber and the many other private hire companies will be obliged to comply.
You seem to think this whole story is about Uber. It's not.

No - but my point, which seems to have been ignored, is that around half
the time even if you book UberPool you don't get matched with someone
and I believe the fare discounts due to it are predicated on roughly
this percentage.

If I cannot (due to sex, age, race, whatever) be matched with someone
who is going my way AND Uber have to treat everyone equally in fare
terms, then there's even less chance of being matched with someone and
hence the fare discount offered becomes much smaller, to the point where
it's not worth offering it.

And for those who asked where this obsession came from, well the TfL
proposal document says:

"Operators should provide mechanisms to allow passengers to choose who
they share
vehicles with (e.g. women only vehicles) and establishing how passengers
might be
able to decide on this before accepting a ride."

Which given it follows several paragraphs that discuss ride-sharing can
be presumed to be about ride-sharing, and the only mainstream operator
that offers such a service is Uber as they have the reach and scale to
do so.

Recliner

2018-02-18 16:37:30 UTC

Post by Recliner
All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with options
for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means only
women passengers or includes the driver.

Such services always have a woman driver.

Is that an option on the Uber app?

I don't think that Uber currently offers the women-only option. This is
just a TfL proposal. No doubt, if TfL insists that such options be offered,
Uber and the many other private hire companies will be obliged to comply.
You seem to think this whole story is about Uber. It's not.

No - but my point, which seems to have been ignored, is that around half
the time even if you book UberPool you don't get matched with someone
and I believe the fare discounts due to it are predicated on roughly
this percentage.
If I cannot (due to sex, age, race, whatever) be matched with someone
who is going my way AND Uber have to treat everyone equally in fare
terms, then there's even less chance of being matched with someone and
hence the fare discount offered becomes much smaller, to the point where
it's not worth offering it.
And for those who asked where this obsession came from, well the TfL
"Operators should provide mechanisms to allow passengers to choose who
they share
vehicles with (e.g. women only vehicles) and establishing how passengers
might be
able to decide on this before accepting a ride."
Which given it follows several paragraphs that discuss ride-sharing can
be presumed to be about ride-sharing, and the only mainstream operator
that offers such a service is Uber as they have the reach and scale to
do so.

So, if forced to offer a female-only option for ride-sharing, Uber might
simply stop offering Uber Pool in London

Someone Somewhere

2018-02-18 17:08:11 UTC

Post by Someone Somewhere
No - but my point, which seems to have been ignored, is that around half
the time even if you book UberPool you don't get matched with someone
and I believe the fare discounts due to it are predicated on roughly
this percentage.
If I cannot (due to sex, age, race, whatever) be matched with someone
who is going my way AND Uber have to treat everyone equally in fare
terms, then there's even less chance of being matched with someone and
hence the fare discount offered becomes much smaller, to the point where
it's not worth offering it.
And for those who asked where this obsession came from, well the TfL
"Operators should provide mechanisms to allow passengers to choose who
they share
vehicles with (e.g. women only vehicles) and establishing how passengers
might be
able to decide on this before accepting a ride."
Which given it follows several paragraphs that discuss ride-sharing can
be presumed to be about ride-sharing, and the only mainstream operator
that offers such a service is Uber as they have the reach and scale to
do so.

So, if forced to offer a female-only option for ride-sharing, Uber might
simply stop offering Uber Pool in London

Yes - that's my point, and the loss of any service which increases the
average occupancy of vehicles in a city whose roads are as overcrowded
as London (whether caused by policy or excess vehicles is irrelevant in
this case) can only be a bad thing.

And yes, that is extrapolating, but I cannot see them being able to
charge a different fare for women only ride sharing as they do for
whoever-wants-to-go-that-way ride sharing.

On a more general point returning to Uber and private hire in general I
suspect in terms of average occupancy per mile travelled they have a
higher percentage than black cabs that by their nature can spend a
considerable amount of time plying for hire, or as it's otherwise known
driving with no-one else on board.

That would in fact be an interesting independent study - what percentage
of a driving day was spent with more than the driver on board, and also
of a percentage of miles travelled in such a condition (or vice versa).

For what it's worth, I see safety as something that can be fixed by
legislation (which is equal and fair for all parties), but once you have
that level playing field efficiency through technology and systems must
be the way to go and unfair advantages must not be provided to those who
are less efficient.

Roland Perry

2018-02-18 17:25:13 UTC

Post by Someone Somewhere
On a more general point returning to Uber and private hire in general I
suspect in terms of average occupancy per mile travelled they have a
higher percentage than black cabs that by their nature can spend a
considerable amount of time plying for hire, or as it's otherwise known
driving with no-one else on board.
That would in fact be an interesting independent study - what
percentage of a driving day was spent with more than the driver on
board, and also of a percentage of miles travelled in such a condition
(or vice versa).

I agree. What I've seen in the past is reports of quite extraordinary
ECS trips done by Uber drivers while unsuccessfully "chasing the surge".
But that could just be Uber drivers who failed to sufficiently game the
system.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2018-02-18 19:29:38 UTC

So, if forced to offer a female-only option for ride-sharing, Uber might
simply stop offering Uber Pool in London

Yes - that's my point, and the loss of any service which increases the
average occupancy of vehicles in a city whose roads are as overcrowded
as London (whether caused by policy or excess vehicles is irrelevant in
this case) can only be a bad thing.
And yes, that is extrapolating, but I cannot see them being able to
charge a different fare for women only ride sharing as they do for
whoever-wants-to-go-that-way ride sharing.
On a more general point returning to Uber and private hire in general I
suspect in terms of average occupancy per mile travelled they have a
higher percentage than black cabs that by their nature can spend a
considerable amount of time plying for hire, or as it's otherwise known
driving with no-one else on board.
That would in fact be an interesting independent study - what percentage
of a driving day was spent with more than the driver on board, and also
of a percentage of miles travelled in such a condition (or vice versa).
For what it's worth, I see safety as something that can be fixed by
legislation (which is equal and fair for all parties), but once you have
that level playing field efficiency through technology and systems must
be the way to go and unfair advantages must not be provided to those who
are less efficient.

One point that occurs to me: it's much harder for Uber to match riders as
it doesn't allow pre-booking.

Someone Somewhere

2018-02-18 21:51:20 UTC

Post by Recliner
One point that occurs to me: it's much harder for Uber to match riders as
it doesn't allow pre-booking.

Yes - but pre-booking leads to a less efficient system in general -
there are no-shows and the unpredictability of traffic (and passengers)
means that a pre-booked driver can waste time making sure they are on time.

Conversely it does allow the controller of a fleet of cabs the ability
to ensure resources are roughly in the right location at the right time.

unknown

2018-02-19 10:54:12 UTC

Post by Recliner
One point that occurs to me: it's much harder for Uber to match riders as
it doesn't allow pre-booking.

Efficient for whom. It is more efficienmt for customers they can leave
at a known time and not have tom leave early to make sure they get a cab
and also stops them sitting worring there will be no cab and so miss
their appointm,ent etc.

Post by Someone Somewhere
Conversely it does allow the controller of a fleet of cabs the ability
to ensure resources are roughly in the right location at the right time.

--
Mark

Someone Somewhere

2018-02-19 12:18:42 UTC

Post by unknown

Post by Recliner
One point that occurs to me: it's much harder for Uber to match riders as
it doesn't allow pre-booking.

It may be if a customer can leave at a known time, but many things have
no exact time associated with them - a play can overrun, how you can
time a restaurant meal is beyond me, and even if you're just going for a
drink or similar you might get involved in a decent conversation and
want to leave later, or conversely it's a rubbish night and you want to
come home early.

Roland Perry

2018-02-19 12:30:03 UTC

Post by unknown

Post by Recliner
One point that occurs to me: it's much harder for Uber to match riders as
it doesn't allow pre-booking.

It may be if a customer can leave at a known time, but many things have
no exact time associated with them - a play can overrun, how you can
time a restaurant meal is beyond me, and even if you're just going for
a drink or similar you might get involved in a decent conversation and
want to leave later, or conversely it's a rubbish night and you want to
come home early.

As soon as you get involved in booking baby sitters, or the destination
of the cab ride is a railway station for a train home, then monitoring
the length of the social event becomes a higher priority.

--
Roland Perry

unknown

2018-02-19 20:26:10 UTC

Post by unknown

Post by Recliner
One point that occurs to me: it's much harder for Uber to match riders as
it doesn't allow pre-booking.

Ah you are looking at leaving. The time/pre booking is usually more at
the start. The play starts at a given time, a prebooked restaurant has a
time, going to a meeting has a time catching a train or aeroplane has a
time. These all would be better prebooked.

--
Mark

Roland Perry

2018-02-18 16:31:06 UTC

In message
<2113870121.540659622.362215.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-sept
ember.org>, at 15:18:33 on Sun, 18 Feb 2018, Recliner

Post by Recliner
You seem to think this whole story is about Uber. It's not.

It is in the sense of the thread's title.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2018-02-18 14:59:11 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from. All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with
options for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means
only women passengers or includes the driver.
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option, there
can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?

Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the
areas of taboo debate, female child predators)?

--
Roland Perry

Basil Jet

2018-02-18 16:17:55 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from. All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with
options for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means
only women passengers or includes the driver.
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option, there
can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?
Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the
areas of taboo debate, female child predators)?

Women are the main child abusers, but it's mostly their own children
they abuse. I think preying on other people's children is mostly a male
thing, but certainly not exclusively, as numerous crimes in nurseries
have shown.

Forced sexual behaviour in adult relationships is most common in lesbian
relationships, and predatory lesbians would view any woman who used a
female-only minicab service as having chosen to be their property. IMO
women using this service would be MUCH more likely to be groped than in
a mixed minicab, but obviously less likely to be forcibly impregnated,
and probably less likely to be successfully robbed.

Roland Perry

2018-02-18 16:34:22 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from. All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with
options for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means
only women passengers or includes the driver.
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option,
there can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?
Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the
areas of taboo debate, female child predators)?

You've talked to criminologists about this?

Post by Basil Jet
Forced sexual behaviour in adult relationships is most common in
lesbian relationships,

Cite?

Post by Basil Jet
and predatory lesbians would view any woman who used a female-only
minicab service as having chosen to be their property.

Why wouldn't that also apply to heterosexual male drivers with female
passengers?

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2018-02-18 17:30:27 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from. All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with
options for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means only
women passengers or includes the driver.
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option, there can
be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?
Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the areas
of taboo debate, female child predators)?

parking the child issue for now,

It's assume by TPTB that men can fight women off, but not the other way
around

tim

Post by Roland Perry
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2018-02-19 17:22:18 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from. All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with
options for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means
only women passengers or includes the driver.
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option,
there can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?
Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the
areas of taboo debate, female child predators)?

parking the child issue for now,
It's assume by TPTB that men can fight women off, but not the other way
around

In such instances the "fighting" takes place in the police interview
room, not the back of the cab.

--
Roland Perry

Robin

2018-02-18 17:56:04 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from. All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with
options for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means
only women passengers or includes the driver.
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option, there
can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?

I did not do so. I mentioned one possible class of people by
sex/sexual orientation. That implies nothing one way or the other about
other possible classes. And I am not aware of any rule that demands
every possible combination must be covered in any question.

Post by Roland Perry
Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the
areas of taboo debate, female child predators)?

I do not why you assume I had in mind sexual predators. I was actually
thinking of men who after recent events prefer to avoid situations which
might lead to them being accused of sexual assault - either maliciously
or as a result of accidental contact.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Roland Perry

2018-02-19 09:56:44 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from. All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with
options for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means
only women passengers or includes the driver.
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option,
there can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?

I did not do so. I mentioned one possible class of people by
sex/sexual orientation. That implies nothing one way or the other
about other possible classes. And I am not aware of any rule that
demands every possible combination must be covered in any question.

Post by Roland Perry
Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the
areas of taboo debate, female child predators)?

I do not why you assume I had in mind sexual predators. I was actually
thinking of men who after recent events prefer to avoid situations
which might lead to them being accused of sexual assault - either
maliciously or as a result of accidental contact.

In that case they need to avoid sharing with men as well.

--
Roland Perry

Basil Jet

2018-02-19 10:32:16 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from. All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules,
with options for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means
only women passengers or includes the driver.
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option,
there can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?

I did not do so. I mentioned one possible class of people by
sex/sexual orientation. That implies nothing one way or the other
about other possible classes. And I am not aware of any rule that
demands every possible combination must be covered in any question.

Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the
areas of taboo debate, female child predators)?

I do not why you assume I had in mind sexual predators. I was
actually thinking of men who after recent events prefer to avoid
situations which might lead to them being accused of sexual assault -
either maliciously or as a result of accidental contact.

In that case they need to avoid sharing with men as well.

How often do straight men falsely accuse each other of sexual assault?
Anyone worried about that should also demand a taxi whose roof is
meteorite-proof.

Roland Perry

2018-02-19 10:55:45 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing
came from. All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new
rules, with options for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only"
means only women passengers or includes the driver.
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option,
there can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?

I did not do so. I mentioned one possible class of people by
sex/sexual orientation. That implies nothing one way or the other
about other possible classes. And I am not aware of any rule that
demands every possible combination must be covered in any question.

Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the
areas of taboo debate, female child predators)?

I do not why you assume I had in mind sexual predators. I was
actually thinking of men who after recent events prefer to avoid
situations which might lead to them being accused of sexual assault -
either maliciously or as a result of accidental contact.

In that case they need to avoid sharing with men as well.

How often do straight men falsely accuse each other of sexual assault?

Why assume both men are straight?

--
Roland Perry

tim...

2018-02-19 15:32:54 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from. All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with
options for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means
only women passengers or includes the driver.
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option, there
can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?

I did not do so. I mentioned one possible class of people by sex/sexual
orientation. That implies nothing one way or the other about other
possible classes. And I am not aware of any rule that demands every
possible combination must be covered in any question.

Post by Roland Perry
Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the
areas of taboo debate, female child predators)?

In that case they need to avoid sharing with men as well.

How often do straight men falsely accuse each other of sexual assault?

once is too many if you're the poor sod on the receiving end

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/22/briton-jailed-for-three-months-in-dubai-for-touching-mans-hip

tim

Basil Jet

2018-02-19 16:07:43 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
How often do straight men falsely accuse each other of sexual assault?

once is too many if you're the poor sod on the receiving end
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/22/briton-jailed-for-three-months-in-dubai-for-touching-mans-hip

Coincidentally I was actually with this man's boss when he got the
initial phone call to tell him his worker had been arrested! He was let
free a few days after the above article.

tim...

2018-02-19 21:40:16 UTC

Post by Basil Jet
How often do straight men falsely accuse each other of sexual assault?

once is too many if you're the poor sod on the receiving end
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/22/briton-jailed-for-three-months-in-dubai-for-touching-mans-hip

Coincidentally I was actually with this man's boss when he got the initial
phone call to tell him his worker had been arrested! He was let free a few
days after the above article.

Having already spent a considerable time stuck in Dubai at his own expense

tim

Robin

2018-02-19 16:20:26 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
In that case they need to avoid sharing with men as well.

How often do straight men falsely accuse each other of sexual assault?

once is too many if you're the poor sod on the receiving end
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/22/briton-jailed-for-three-months-in-dubai-for-touching-mans-hip

A scarily nice example of how the price of perfection is prohibitive -
in the sense that avoiding *all* risk means living like a hermit.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

tim...

2018-02-19 21:42:28 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
In that case they need to avoid sharing with men as well.

How often do straight men falsely accuse each other of sexual assault?

once is too many if you're the poor sod on the receiving end
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/22/briton-jailed-for-three-months-in-dubai-for-touching-mans-hip

A scarily nice example of how the price of perfection is prohibitive - in
the sense that avoiding *all* risk means living like a hermit.

In the case of Dubai, I think it just means accepting that if you go there
on holiday, looking for the local drinking dens should be off the agenda.

(though quite what the attraction of the place for a holiday is, I have no
idea)

tim

b***@cylonHQ.com

2018-02-20 10:02:35 UTC

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 21:42:28 -0000

Post by Roland Perry
In that case they need to avoid sharing with men as well.

How often do straight men falsely accuse each other of sexual assault?

once is too many if you're the poor sod on the receiving end

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/22/briton-jailed-for-three-months-in
dubai-for-touching-mans-hip

A scarily nice example of how the price of perfection is prohibitive - in
the sense that avoiding *all* risk means living like a hermit.

In the case of Dubai, I think it just means accepting that if you go there
on holiday, looking for the local drinking dens should be off the agenda.

Quite. Its not as if there arn't enough other places in the world you can
get plastered.

Post by tim...
(though quite what the attraction of the place for a holiday is, I have no
idea)

It is a bit of a mystery. Its too hot to spend much time on the beach and
there is nothing else to do unless you love spending your holiday in shopping
malls.

Marland

2018-02-20 10:46:56 UTC

Post by tim...
In the case of Dubai, I think it just means accepting that if you go there
on holiday, looking for the local drinking dens should be off the agenda.

Quite. Its not as if there arn't enough other places in the world you can
get plastered.

Post by tim...
(though quite what the attraction of the place for a holiday is, I have no
idea)

It is a bit of a mystery. Its too hot to spend much time on the beach and
there is nothing else to do unless you love spending your holiday in shopping
malls.

It has a two line Metro and a tram route so may attract extreme urban track
bashers.
Personally I found Ealing Broadway to Ongar enough to get that sort of
thing out of my system when I was about 14.

GH

tim...

2018-02-20 12:08:51 UTC

Post by Marland

Post by tim...
In the case of Dubai, I think it just means accepting that if you go there
on holiday, looking for the local drinking dens should be off the agenda.

Quite. Its not as if there arn't enough other places in the world you can
get plastered.

Post by tim...
(though quite what the attraction of the place for a holiday is, I have no
idea)

It is a bit of a mystery. Its too hot to spend much time on the beach and
there is nothing else to do unless you love spending your holiday in shopping
malls.

It has a two line Metro and a tram route so may attract extreme urban track
bashers.

That's accounted for by my 2 day stop-over (on the way to wherever)

but why would I actually want to go there for a destination holiday?

tim

Marland

2018-02-20 14:10:31 UTC

Post by Marland

Post by tim...
In the case of Dubai, I think it just means accepting that if you go there
on holiday, looking for the local drinking dens should be off the agenda.

Quite. Its not as if there arn't enough other places in the world you can
get plastered.

Post by tim...
(though quite what the attraction of the place for a holiday is, I have no
idea)

It is a bit of a mystery. Its too hot to spend much time on the beach and
there is nothing else to do unless you love spending your holiday in shopping
malls.

It has a two line Metro and a tram route so may attract extreme urban track
bashers.

That's accounted for by my 2 day stop-over (on the way to wherever)
but why would I actually want to go there for a destination holiday?

How the heck would I know without knowing your interests,

I just stated a somewhat unlikely but possibly valid reason by people who
like to travel on different transit systems to go there,
Other things that people may find it worth visiting for but less connected
to the the interests of this group could be Motorsports , Power boating
,Ocean yacht racing and Horse racing all of which which regularly occur in
the area and attract numerous people who follow those pursuits.

GH

tim...

2018-02-20 16:16:15 UTC

Post by tim...
In the case of Dubai, I think it just means accepting that if you go there
on holiday, looking for the local drinking dens should be off the agenda.

Quite. Its not as if there arn't enough other places in the world you can
get plastered.

Post by tim...
(though quite what the attraction of the place for a holiday is, I
have
no
idea)

It is a bit of a mystery. Its too hot to spend much time on the beach and
there is nothing else to do unless you love spending your holiday in shopping
malls.

It has a two line Metro and a tram route so may attract extreme urban track
bashers.

That's accounted for by my 2 day stop-over (on the way to wherever)
but why would I actually want to go there for a destination holiday?

How the heck would I know without knowing your interests,

You can replace I with "anybody", the question remains.

Post by Marland
I just stated a somewhat unlikely but possibly valid reason by people who
like to travel on different transit systems to go there,
Other things that people may find it worth visiting for but less connected
to the the interests of this group could be Motorsports , Power boating
,Ocean yacht racing and Horse racing all of which which regularly occur in
the area and attract numerous people who follow those pursuits.

Going somewhere to watch a round of an international sports competition
doesn't constitute "a holiday" in my book

tim

Marland

2018-02-20 19:08:56 UTC

Post by tim...
In the case of Dubai, I think it just means accepting that if you go there
on holiday, looking for the local drinking dens should be off the agenda.

Quite. Its not as if there arn't enough other places in the world you can
get plastered.

Post by tim...
(though quite what the attraction of the place for a holiday is, I
have
no
idea)

It is a bit of a mystery. Its too hot to spend much time on the beach and
there is nothing else to do unless you love spending your holiday in shopping
malls.

It has a two line Metro and a tram route so may attract extreme urban track
bashers.

That's accounted for by my 2 day stop-over (on the way to wherever)
but why would I actually want to go there for a destination holiday?

How the heck would I know without knowing your interests,

You can replace I with "anybody", the question remains.

Going somewhere to watch a round of an international sports competition
doesn't constitute "a holiday" in my book
tim

Me neither but many people are or the events they hold there would not be
worth repeating.
And the target market won’t be confined to old codgers from the UK or just
Europe even, people from afar would not even be interested in your “book”
which sounds like a bit of Vanity publishing.

GH

tim...

2018-02-20 20:08:20 UTC

Post by tim...
In the case of Dubai, I think it just means accepting that if you go there
on holiday, looking for the local drinking dens should be off the agenda.

Quite. Its not as if there arn't enough other places in the world you can
get plastered.

Post by tim...
(though quite what the attraction of the place for a holiday is, I
have
no
idea)

It is a bit of a mystery. Its too hot to spend much time on the beach and
there is nothing else to do unless you love spending your holiday in shopping
malls.

It has a two line Metro and a tram route so may attract extreme urban track
bashers.

That's accounted for by my 2 day stop-over (on the way to wherever)
but why would I actually want to go there for a destination holiday?

How the heck would I know without knowing your interests,

You can replace I with "anybody", the question remains.

Going somewhere to watch a round of an international sports competition
doesn't constitute "a holiday" in my book
tim

Me neither but many people are or the events they hold there would not be
worth repeating.

The point is that the Dubai round of the whatever it is international
competition is 2-3 days of visitors.

Dubai sees itself as a 365 days a year "destination, competition attendance
is the noise here.

Post by Marland
And the target market won’t be confined to old codgers from the UK or just
Europe even, people from afar would not even be interested in your “book”
which sounds like a bit of Vanity publishing.

what book are you referring to?

tim

David Cantrell

2018-02-23 15:05:29 UTC

Post by Marland
Other things that people may find it worth visiting for but less connected
to the the interests of this group could be Motorsports , Power boating
,Ocean yacht racing and Horse racing all of which which regularly occur in
the area and attract numerous people who follow those pursuits.

Going somewhere to watch a round of an international sports competition
doesn't constitute "a holiday" in my book

No? You mean people don't go on holiday to watch, say, international
rugby matches? Or a test match?

I think you need to correct that error in your book!

And it doesn't have to be an international sports competition for people
to go on holiday abroad for a specific event. Later this year I'll be
heading off to Toronto primarily to watch a match in the second division
of English rugby league. I expect that while I'm over there I shall also
enjoy some of the quaint local customs which don't really exist here,
such as baseball. I presume that, likewise, people who go to nasty
Middle Eastern states for motor racing don't *just* do motor racing
while they are there.

--
David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club"

The voices told me to [THIS SIG CENSORED BY GCHQ FOR REASONS OF
NATIONAL SECURITY AND DECENCY AND OH MY GOD IS THAT A LOBSTER]

tim...

2018-02-23 15:25:42 UTC

Post by David Cantrell

Going somewhere to watch a round of an international sports competition
doesn't constitute "a holiday" in my book

No? You mean people don't go on holiday to watch, say, international
rugby matches? Or a test match?

they take "holiday" from their job

but it doesn't constitute a traditional "holiday", no

tim

David Cantrell

2018-02-27 13:13:29 UTC

Post by David Cantrell
No? You mean people don't go on holiday to watch, say, international
rugby matches? Or a test match?

they take "holiday" from their job
but it doesn't constitute a traditional "holiday", no

What's a "traditional holiday"? I can't think of a single person I know
who has gone on holiday to watch sport and *only* watched sport while on
their jaunt.

--
David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice

Erudite is when you make a classical allusion to a
feather. Kinky is when you use the whole chicken.

Robin

2018-02-19 10:39:39 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from. All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules,
with options for "women-only" taxi journeys,

<snip>
I cannot find anything which makes clear whether "women only" means
only women passengers or includes the driver.
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option,
there can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?

I did not do so. I mentioned one possible class of people by
sex/sexual orientation. That implies nothing one way or the other
about other possible classes. And I am not aware of any rule that
demands every possible combination must be covered in any question.

Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the
areas of taboo debate, female child predators)?

I do not why you assume I had in mind sexual predators. I was
actually thinking of men who after recent events prefer to avoid
situations which might lead to them being accused of sexual assault -
either maliciously or as a result of accidental contact.

In that case they need to avoid sharing with men as well.

That may be true of men who do not understand the difference between
reducing risk and eliminating risk. Or, if you prefer, men who don't
understand that the price of perfection is prohibitive. But then they
should follow your reasoning and not use taxis or PHVs at all for fear
of being accused by the driver.

But perhaps you have evidence that a heterosexual man is just as likely
to face allegations from another heterosexual man as from anyone else.

PS
I was not belittling the concerns some women gave - just puzzled how
"women only" plays into the current trend to be blind to distinctions of
gender/orientation.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Roland Perry

2018-02-19 10:58:09 UTC

Post by Robin
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option,
there can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?

I did not do so. I mentioned one possible class of people by
sex/sexual orientation. That implies nothing one way or the other
about other possible classes. And I am not aware of any rule that
demands every possible combination must be covered in any question.

Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the
areas of taboo debate, female child predators)?

I do not why you assume I had in mind sexual predators. I was
actually thinking of men who after recent events prefer to avoid
situations which might lead to them being accused of sexual assault -
either maliciously or as a result of accidental contact.

In that case they need to avoid sharing with men as well.

Why does that apply to men and not women?

Post by Robin
But perhaps you have evidence that a heterosexual man is just as likely
to face allegations from another heterosexual man as from anyone else.

That wasn't my proposition.

Post by Robin
PS
I was not belittling the concerns some women gave - just puzzled how

Do you mean "why"?

Post by Robin
"women only" plays into the current trend to be blind to distinctions
of gender/orientation.

Perhaps you've never been "hit on" by another man.

--
Roland Perry

Robin

2018-02-19 11:27:39 UTC

Post by Robin
And I'd like to see someone ask if, given a "women only" option,
there can be a "heterosexual men only" option.

Why restrict the heterosexuality issue to males?

I did not do so. I mentioned one possible class of people by
sex/sexual orientation. That implies nothing one way or the other
about other possible classes. And I am not aware of any rule that
demands every possible combination must be covered in any question.

Are there no female sexual predators (or getting even more into the
areas of taboo debate, female child predators)?

I do not why you assume I had in mind sexual predators. I was
actually thinking of men who after recent events prefer to avoid
situations which might lead to them being accused of sexual assault
- either maliciously or as a result of accidental contact.

In that case they need to avoid sharing with men as well.

Why does that apply to men and not women?

It does. And IME most women (and most men) are perfectly able to
understand the distinctions I was drawing.

Post by Robin
But perhaps you have evidence that a heterosexual man is just as
likely to face allegations from another heterosexual man as from
anyone else.

That wasn't my proposition.

No, but it is rather important to your "they need to avoid sharing with
men as well".

Post by Robin
PS
I was not belittling the concerns some women gave - just puzzled how

Do you mean "why"?

No.

Post by Robin
"women only" plays into the current trend to be blind to distinctions
of gender/orientation.

Perhaps you've never been "hit on" by another man.

I've never been "hit on" by another *heterosexual* man. Your experience
may of course be different.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Roland Perry

2018-02-19 11:56:57 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Perhaps you've never been "hit on" by another man.

I've never been "hit on" by another *heterosexual* man.

Only gay men? (Although I'm unsighted as to your gender, I merely assume
it's male given how few female train enthusiasts there are, although I
have to say most people I know called "Robin" are women).

Post by Robin
Your experience may of course be different.

As a heterosexual man I've been hit on a few times by gay men. It's a
somewhat different experience to being hit on by a heterosexual woman.

The whole point being that one can't avoid being potentially in a
sexually compromising situation merely by avoiding the other *gender*.

--
Roland Perry

Robin

2018-02-19 13:27:28 UTC

Perhaps you've never been "hit on" by another man.

I've never been "hit on" by another *heterosexual* man.

Only gay men?

Questions, questions Roland.

No, I've been "hit on" by women. And dogs. And there was a cow in
France once that seemed very keen. And...

Post by Roland Perry
(Although I'm unsighted as to your gender, I merely assume
it's male given how few female train enthusiasts there are, although I
have to say most people I know called "Robin" are women).

As a boy's name its popularity in England and Wales peaked for births in
the 40s/early 50s, and by the late 1980s it was out of the top 100. But
it has *never* been in the top 100 names for girls in the 20th or 21st
centuries.

So your acquaintance would seem to be atypical.

Post by Robin
Your experience may of course be different.

As a heterosexual man I've been hit on a few times by gay men. It's a
somewhat different experience to being hit on by a heterosexual woman.
The whole point being that one can't avoid being potentially in a
sexually compromising situation merely by avoiding the other *gender*.

I cannot fathom why you construe "heterosexual men" as if it specified
only gender.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

b***@cylonHQ.com

2018-02-19 15:22:16 UTC

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 13:27:28 +0000

Post by Roland Perry
The whole point being that one can't avoid being potentially in a
sexually compromising situation merely by avoiding the other *gender*.

I cannot fathom why you construe "heterosexual men" as if it specified
only gender.

That sentence makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Robin

2018-02-19 16:19:46 UTC

Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 13:27:28 +0000

Post by Roland Perry
The whole point being that one can't avoid being potentially in a
sexually compromising situation merely by avoiding the other *gender*.

I cannot fathom why you construe "heterosexual men" as if it specified
only gender.

That sentence makes no sense whatsoever to me.

I referred to ride sharing with "heterosexual men only". That is men who
are attracted to people of the opposite sex. So I was excluding women,
homosexual and bisexual men, children et al. Roland's "the other
*gender*" implies I was excluded only females. I can't guess why he
read it that way.

And I no longer care so he can of course have the last word.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Roland Perry

2018-02-19 17:12:44 UTC

Perhaps you've never been "hit on" by another man.

I've never been "hit on" by another *heterosexual* man.

Only gay men?

Questions, questions Roland.
No, I've been "hit on" by women. And dogs. And there was a cow in
France once that seemed very keen. And...

You've avoided mentioning the non-heterosexual men.

Post by Roland Perry
(Although I'm unsighted as to your gender, I merely assume it's male
given how few female train enthusiasts there are, although I have to
say most people I know called "Robin" are women).

As a boy's name its popularity in England and Wales peaked for births
in the 40s/early 50s, and by the late 1980s it was out of the top 100.
But it has *never* been in the top 100 names for girls in the 20th or
21st centuries.
So your acquaintance would seem to be atypical.

Not England and Wales, then.

Post by Robin
Your experience may of course be different.

As a heterosexual man I've been hit on a few times by gay men. It's
a somewhat different experience to being hit on by a heterosexual
woman.
The whole point being that one can't avoid being potentially in a
sexually compromising situation merely by avoiding the other *gender*.

I cannot fathom why you construe "heterosexual men" as if it specified
only gender.

It doesn't, there are elements of both gender and sexual orientation.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2018-02-18 13:32:23 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from.

Not from us commenting here. Maybe from some parts of the customer base
though.

Post by Recliner
All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with options
for "women-only" taxi journeys,

Because they perceive it reduces some forms of risk, perhaps? Or just
political correctness gone into overtime.

Post by Recliner
clearer policies for reporting offences, greater data sharing, how
customer data is handled, improved complaint-handling and improved
conditions for drivers. It's the last of these which is significant for
the likes of Uber, as it includes "reasonable working hours including
appropriate breaks throughout their shift". It mentions that Uber
recently introduced an hours cap for drivers, set at 10 hours, after
which they are locked out of the app.

--
Roland Perry

Recliner

2018-02-18 13:48:02 UTC

Post by Recliner
I'm not sure where this obsession with single-sex ride-sharing came
from.

Not from us commenting here. Maybe from some parts of the customer base
though.

Post by Recliner
All that's happened is that TfL is proposing new rules, with options
for "women-only" taxi journeys,

Because they perceive it reduces some forms of risk, perhaps? Or just
political correctness gone into overtime.

I'm sure there's demand for such services, for obvious reasons, and
there are already women-owned and operated taxis that are aimed at a
female market; some will only carry women and children, others will
accept male pax as well.

<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/road-safety/9573645/Women-only-taxi-firms.html>

<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/women-only-taxi-firm-for-toddlers-travelling-solo-a3649511.html>

<http://www.londonladychauffeurs.co.uk/>

<http://www.riverside-cars.com/female-taxi-driver.html>

<http://www.pinkladies.co.uk/services>

tim...

2018-02-18 10:29:07 UTC

Post by Recliner
<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/02/15/uber-faces-fresh-regulations-tfl-ahead-licence-appeal/>

You've got to admire their thinking - how would a woman only service work
with respect to ride sharing?

where did the article mention ride sharing?

tim

Recliner

2018-02-18 10:42:51 UTC

Post by Recliner
<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/02/15/uber-faces-fresh-regulations-tfl-ahead-licence-appeal/>

You've got to admire their thinking - how would a woman only service work
with respect to ride sharing?

where did the article mention ride sharing?

In the third para:

“The private hire market is unrecognisable from when current legislation
was introduced,” said Helen Chapman, interim director of licensing at TfL.
“The growth of ride-sharing and other advances mean that regulation has to
be fit for the next decade and not the last.”

DESMOND DAVID CLAY

2018-05-10 06:30:38 UTC

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-300 pills..................£80
-500 pills..................£120
-1000 pills................£200
-2500 pills...............£280
-5000 pills...............£400
-7500 pills...............£550
-10000 pills............£800

For more information on how to place your order:

CALL/TEXT/WHATSAPP........+17546663823

E-mail me ***@gmail.com

miken man

2018-05-10 16:57:30 UTC