"It stopped, short..."

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Spains Harden

2019-12-20 21:37:20 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

That was very quick and Laura would have been proud of that.

Either that or great Googling.

HVS

2019-12-21 00:10:12 UTC

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:37:20 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden

In article

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

That was very quick and Laura would have been proud of that.
Either that or great Googling.

??

I can't imagine that anyone in this group would consider that verse
to be even remotely obscure.

Cheers, Harvey

RH Draney

2019-12-21 06:44:37 UTC

Post by HVS
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:37:20 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden

In article

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."
never to go again

That was very quick and Laura would have been proud of that.
Either that or great Googling.

??
I can't imagine that anyone in this group would consider that verse to
be even remotely obscure.

Heck, I first heard it recited by Bullwinkle!...r

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-12-21 07:48:28 UTC

Post by HVS
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:37:20 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden

In article

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

That was very quick and Laura would have been proud of that.
Either that or great Googling.

??
I can't imagine that anyone in this group would consider that verse to
be even remotely obscure.

Well, 'Arrison obviously thought it was a recondite piece of knowledge.
If someone tells Laura that 'Arrison misses her she'll probably come
rushing back.

Anyway, it's clear that he hasn't lost his taste for moronic quizzes
that have nothing to do with English usage.

--
athel

Spains Harden

2019-12-21 17:56:34 UTC

Post by HVS
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:37:20 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden

In article

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

That was very quick and Laura would have been proud of that.
Either that or great Googling.

??
I can't imagine that anyone in this group would consider that verse to
be even remotely obscure.

Well, 'Arrison obviously thought it was a recondite piece of knowledge.
If someone tells Laura that 'Arrison misses her she'll probably come
rushing back.

She's already here. Only people of a certain age would appreciate
these things unfortunately. "Recondite" I appreciate as an erudite
word dredged up from the past.

charles

2019-12-21 10:58:03 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

That was very quick and Laura would have been proud of that.
Either that or great Googling.

memory - not Google

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Snidely

2019-12-21 07:59:01 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

Are you sure there's a comma there?

What is the meaning of "he walked down the street,
only to stop short at the sight of broken glass
from Macy's display window"?

/dps

--
"This is all very fine, but let us not be carried away be excitement,
but ask calmly, how does this person feel about in in his cooler
moments next day, with six or seven thousand feet of snow and stuff on
top of him?"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain.

Peter Young

2019-12-21 17:20:52 UTC

Post by Snidely

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

Are you sure there's a comma there?

I think the comma represents the short rest at that point in the song.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

soup

2019-12-21 09:53:43 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-12-21 10:09:18 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

Something I forgot to mention is that I wonder why 'Arrison threw a
gratuitous insult at Katy. What did she do to deserve that? If it had
beenme or Jenny Telia it would have been understandable, as we haven't
always been willing to acknowledge his genius.

--
athel

Katy Jennison

2019-12-21 12:24:26 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

Something I forgot to mention is that I wonder why 'Arrison threw a
gratuitous insult at Katy. What did she do to deserve that? If it had
been me or Jenny Telia it would have been understandable, as we haven't
always been willing to acknowledge his genius.

I did wonder that myself. Along with observing the presence of 'was'
instead of 'were', and that the comma there is an instance of indicating
a pause or a check rather than being required for the grammar. And why
Laura in particular, especially as I've known the song since I was five
or six, and therefore almost certainly longer than Laura can have done.

On the other hand, I don't recollect any acknowledgements of genius,
either. Agreement, conceivably, once or twice, yes. Even a stopped
clock is right twice a day.

--
Katy Jennison

J. J. Lodder

2019-12-21 14:37:54 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
What are the possible meanings of: "It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

Something I forgot to mention is that I wonder why 'Arrison threw
a gratuitous insult at Katy. What did she do to deserve that? If
it had been me or Jenny Telia it would have been understandable, as
we haven't always been willing to acknowledge his genius.

I don't think you were the target. HH has been picking away at Laura
since she made it plain, in a tone that I associate with the quelling of
undergraduates, that he did not impress her. There is a lot of troll in
him.
ObDisambiguation: not "kvelling".

Close. Mr Quelch translates to Dutch as Mr Kwel.
From 'kwellen', 'kwelling', for which the dictionary gives
'harassment; agony; torture; torment; pain; ordeal; test; testing.

James Joyce could have made something out of it,

Jan

Jerry Friedman

2019-12-21 15:13:30 UTC

…

HH has been picking away at Laura
since she made it plain, in a tone that I associate with the quelling of
undergraduates, that he did not impress her. There is a lot of troll in
him.
ObDisambiguation: not "kvelling".

"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which must
be cognate to German "quellen". The Dutch word must be cognate to
German "Qual".

In grad school, when my officemates and I were studying for the
qualifying examination or "qual", I taped a piece of paper onto
the wall next to my desk with a quotation from Goethe:

Und wenn der Mensch in seiner Qual verstummt,
Gab mir ein Gott zu sagen, was ich leide.

--
Jerry Friedman

Jerry Friedman

2019-12-21 16:33:02 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
…

"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which must
be cognate to German "quellen". The Dutch word must be cognate to
German "Qual".
In grad school, when my officemates and I were studying for the
qualifying examination or "qual", I taped a piece of paper onto
Und wenn der Mensch in seiner Qual verstummt,
Gab mir ein Gott zu sagen, was ich leide.

The first line of "Die Walküre" is "Ein Quell, ein Quell" ("a drink, a
drink.") Is that the same word?

No, that's German for a spring of water, a well, a source. As far
as I can tell it's a literary word, and the everyday word is
Quelle. It doesn't have a cognate in modern English.

I know what little German I know from the same kinds of sources as
you:

Leise, rieselnder Quell,
Ihr wallenden, flispernden Pappeln.

German "Qual" (torture, agony) is related to Dutch "kwellen",
mentioned by Jan above, and English "quell", according to the OED.

--
Jerry Friedman

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-12-21 16:50:54 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
…

"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which must
be cognate to German "quellen". The Dutch word must be cognate to
German "Qual".
In grad school, when my officemates and I were studying for the
qualifying examination or "qual", I taped a piece of paper onto
Und wenn der Mensch in seiner Qual verstummt,
Gab mir ein Gott zu sagen, was ich leide.

The first line of "Die Walküre" is "Ein Quell, ein Quell" ("a drink, a>
drink.") Is that the same word?

No, that's German for a spring of water, a well, a source. As far
as I can tell it's a literary word, and the everyday word is
Quelle. It doesn't have a cognate in modern English.

Other than the mysterious and hypothetical Q claimed to be the source
of some of the information in the Gospels.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I know what little German I know from the same kinds of sources as
Leise, rieselnder Quell,
Ihr wallenden, flispernden Pappeln.
http://youtu.be/Cs6EPriC4c0
German "Qual" (torture, agony) is related to Dutch "kwellen",
mentioned by Jan above, and English "quell", according to the OED.

--
athel

occam

2020-01-02 11:18:08 UTC

No, that's German for a spring of water, a well, a source. As far
as I can tell it's a literary word, and the everyday word is
Quelle. It doesn't have a cognate in modern English.

Other than the mysterious and hypothetical Q claimed to be the source of
some of the information in the Gospels.

Is this a reference to 'Q' in Star Trek (the new generation)? If so, I
was not aware that you were a closet trekkie.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2020-01-02 13:24:02 UTC

No, that's German for a spring of water, a well, a source. As far
as I can tell it's a literary word, and the everyday word is
Quelle. It doesn't have a cognate in modern English.

Other than the mysterious and hypothetical Q claimed to be the source of
some of the information in the Gospels.

Is this a reference to 'Q' in Star Trek (the new generation)? If so, I
was not aware that you were a closet trekkie.

Not even an out-of-the-closet trekkie. Q is a hypothetical source of
the sayings of Jesus in Matthew and Luke that can't be found in Mark.

--
athel

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-02 14:24:00 UTC

No, that's German for a spring of water, a well, a source. As far
as I can tell it's a literary word, and the everyday word is
Quelle. It doesn't have a cognate in modern English.

Other than the mysterious and hypothetical Q claimed to be the source of
some of the information in the Gospels.

Is this a reference to 'Q' in Star Trek (the new generation)? If so, I
was not aware that you were a closet trekkie.

No, it is the name for the hypothetical document that contained the
material common to Matthew and Luke but not found in Mark. Nowadays
it's usually considered to be an oral rather than a written document.

David Kleinecke

2020-01-02 19:13:05 UTC

No, that's German for a spring of water, a well, a source. As far
as I can tell it's a literary word, and the everyday word is
Quelle. It doesn't have a cognate in modern English.

Other than the mysterious and hypothetical Q claimed to be the source of
some of the information in the Gospels.

Is this a reference to 'Q' in Star Trek (the new generation)? If so, I
was not aware that you were a closet trekkie.

I haven't noticed any tendency to think of Q as an oral tradition.
The close similarities between Matthew and Luke in some passages
IMO makes that unlikely.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-02 19:44:06 UTC

No, that's German for a spring of water, a well, a source. As far
as I can tell it's a literary word, and the everyday word is
Quelle. It doesn't have a cognate in modern English.

Other than the mysterious and hypothetical Q claimed to be the source of
some of the information in the Gospels.

Is this a reference to 'Q' in Star Trek (the new generation)? If so, I
was not aware that you were a closet trekkie.

Presumably that was named for or alludes to this, which was identified
in the 19th c. by, obviously, some German. Or to Q from James Bond, which
wasn't?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, it is the name for the hypothetical document that contained the
material common to Matthew and Luke but not found in Mark. Nowadays
it's usually considered to be an oral rather than a written document.

I haven't noticed any tendency to think of Q as an oral tradition.
The close similarities between Matthew and Luke in some passages
IMO makes that unlikely.

See recent commentaries and studies specifically of Q. The highly respected
Hermaneia Commentary announced a volume dedicated to it, in the exact format
used for each volume on a book of the Bible, but I don't pay attention to NT
studies at all, so I don't know whether it appeared.

David Kleinecke

2020-01-02 21:16:47 UTC

No, that's German for a spring of water, a well, a source. As far
as I can tell it's a literary word, and the everyday word is
Quelle. It doesn't have a cognate in modern English.

Other than the mysterious and hypothetical Q claimed to be the source of
some of the information in the Gospels.

Is this a reference to 'Q' in Star Trek (the new generation)? If so, I
was not aware that you were a closet trekkie.

Presumably that was named for or alludes to this, which was identified
in the 19th c. by, obviously, some German. Or to Q from James Bond, which
wasn't?

I haven't noticed any tendency to think of Q as an oral tradition.
The close similarities between Matthew and Luke in some passages
IMO makes that unlikely.

Since you pay no attention to NT studies I am surprised you have
kept up on commentaries and studies specifically devoted to Q.

The studies of Q I have read recently that admit its existence do
not suggest it is an oral tradition - but I am capable of reading
a twenty-year old study and not noticing the date.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-02 21:24:34 UTC

No, that's German for a spring of water, a well, a source. As far
as I can tell it's a literary word, and the everyday word is
Quelle. It doesn't have a cognate in modern English.

Other than the mysterious and hypothetical Q claimed to be the source of
some of the information in the Gospels.

Is this a reference to 'Q' in Star Trek (the new generation)? If so, I
was not aware that you were a closet trekkie.

Presumably that was named for or alludes to this, which was identified
in the 19th c. by, obviously, some German. Or to Q from James Bond, which
wasn't?

I haven't noticed any tendency to think of Q as an oral tradition.
The close similarities between Matthew and Luke in some passages
IMO makes that unlikely.

Since you pay no attention to NT studies I am surprised you have
kept up on commentaries and studies specifically devoted to Q.

I see advertisements!!

And I did, once upon a time, read Fr. Fitzmyer on Luke and Fr. Brown
on John and the Birth Narratives (both in the Anchor Bible, from the
1970s IIRC; *The Birth of the Messiah* follows the same format, because
he didn't get to deal with it in the John commentary and Matthew and
Luke were spoken for).

Post by David Kleinecke
The studies of Q I have read recently that admit its existence do
not suggest it is an oral tradition - but I am capable of reading
a twenty-year old study and not noticing the date.

The graphic style should be a tipoff. The 1st ed. of Crystal's Cambridge
Encyclopedia of Language looks positively archaic.

David Kleinecke

2020-01-02 23:41:33 UTC

No, that's German for a spring of water, a well, a source. As far
as I can tell it's a literary word, and the everyday word is
Quelle. It doesn't have a cognate in modern English.

Other than the mysterious and hypothetical Q claimed to be the source of
some of the information in the Gospels.

Is this a reference to 'Q' in Star Trek (the new generation)? If so, I
was not aware that you were a closet trekkie.

Presumably that was named for or alludes to this, which was identified
in the 19th c. by, obviously, some German. Or to Q from James Bond, which
wasn't?

I haven't noticed any tendency to think of Q as an oral tradition.
The close similarities between Matthew and Luke in some passages
IMO makes that unlikely.

Since you pay no attention to NT studies I am surprised you have
kept up on commentaries and studies specifically devoted to Q.

I see advertisements!!
And I did, once upon a time, read Fr. Fitzmyer on Luke and Fr. Brown
on John and the Birth Narratives (both in the Anchor Bible, from the
1970s IIRC; *The Birth of the Messiah* follows the same format, because
he didn't get to deal with it in the John commentary and Matthew and
Luke were spoken for).

The graphic style should be a tipoff. The 1st ed. of Crystal's Cambridge
Encyclopedia of Language looks positively archaic.

The most recent book I bought is a copy of Quirk et al's big
English grammar from the 1980's. If it looks archaic I am
incapable of recognizing what you call archaic. Kloppenborg
et al "Q Thomas Reader" is from 1990.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-03 16:39:31 UTC

The graphic style should be a tipoff. The 1st ed. of Crystal's Cambridge
Encyclopedia of Language looks positively archaic.

Styles in typography change at least as often as styles in art and
architecture!

David Kleinecke

2020-01-03 20:06:12 UTC

The graphic style should be a tipoff. The 1st ed. of Crystal's Cambridge
Encyclopedia of Language looks positively archaic.

Styles in typography change at least as often as styles in art and
architecture!

And I seem to almost completely oblivious to them.

What, for example, dates a book as from 1980 today?

That's forty years - approximately one generation of people.

PS: I'm as oblivious to styles in art as I am to styles in
typography. Architecture I do follow - for example, this
house was built in 2015, so fairly up-to-date, and it has
clearstory(?) windows above all the major windows. I never
saw this before - but I don't watch every episode of This
Old House.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-03 21:48:05 UTC

The graphic style should be a tipoff. The 1st ed. of Crystal's Cambridge
Encyclopedia of Language looks positively archaic.

Styles in typography change at least as often as styles in art and
architecture!

And I seem to almost completely oblivious to them.
What, for example, dates a book as from 1980 today?

If that's the Crystal, it has things like borders around the illustrations
and captions, sans-serif bold headings IIRC, narrow columns, ...

Post by David Kleinecke
That's forty years - approximately one generation of people.
PS: I'm as oblivious to styles in art as I am to styles in
typography. Architecture I do follow - for example, this
house was built in 2015, so fairly up-to-date, and it has
clearstory(?) windows above all the major windows. I never
saw this before - but I don't watch every episode of This
Old House.

Clerestory windows are low-height windows at a top level, for instance
peeping through a roof to light an attic, or at the base of a dome to
light the main space. If yours are directly above each window, they may
be transoms, which a surprising thread here a while ago tried to convince
us refers to the lintel above the doorway/below the window, while normal
people use it for the window itself. (I suppose it's like insisting that
"gargoyle" can't be used for anything but 'waterspout'.)

David Kleinecke

2020-01-03 23:04:02 UTC

Post by David Kleinecke
What, for example, dates a book as from 1980 today?

If that's the Crystal, it has things like borders around the illustrations
and captions, sans-serif bold headings IIRC, narrow columns, ...

The "Q Thomas Reader" (from 1980) doesn't seem to have any of
these characteristics - there are only a couple of illustrations
which don't seem to share any features. Perhaps the Crystal book
is an eccentric outlier.

PS: I wrote "outlayer" first - another version of lay/lie
confusion perhaps.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-03 23:36:34 UTC

Post by David Kleinecke
What, for example, dates a book as from 1980 today?

If that's the Crystal, it has things like borders around the illustrations
and captions, sans-serif bold headings IIRC, narrow columns, ...

I don't know what that is, but probably it's a scholarly book simply
forced into the "house style" of the publisher. One way of cutting
cost was to not employ book designers. The University of Chicago Press,
however, had (has?) a sizable Design department that ensures each book
(unless in a series) looks distinctive with a design that fits the content.

Post by David Kleinecke
PS: I wrote "outlayer" first - another version of lay/lie
confusion perhaps.

David Kleinecke

2020-01-04 01:09:12 UTC

Post by David Kleinecke
What, for example, dates a book as from 1980 today?

If that's the Crystal, it has things like borders around the illustrations
and captions, sans-serif bold headings IIRC, narrow columns, ...

Post by David Kleinecke
PS: I wrote "outlayer" first - another version of lay/lie
confusion perhaps.

The Q Thomas Book is a publication of the Polebridge Press (Sonoma
California) which I think was Robert Funk's personal press and
so far as I know ceased publishing when Funk died. There is enough
design effort and unity that I feel someone was acting as editor -
whether Funk himself or a colleague.

PS: Funk (1926-2005) is best known as the guy who convened the
Jesus Seminar.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-04 14:49:09 UTC

Post by David Kleinecke
What, for example, dates a book as from 1980 today?

If that's the Crystal, it has things like borders around the illustrations
and captions, sans-serif bold headings IIRC, narrow columns, ...

Post by David Kleinecke
PS: I wrote "outlayer" first - another version of lay/lie
confusion perhaps.

"Design" and "Editorial" are two different departments.

Post by David Kleinecke
PS: Funk (1926-2005) is best known as the guy who convened the
Jesus Seminar.

The only name I know in that connection is the triple-barreled one --
was it Timothy Luke Johnson? -- who got himself in trouble with his
denomination for being perceived as coming perilously close to denying
the divinity of Christ.

Jerry Friedman

2020-01-04 15:09:12 UTC

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 8:09:15 PM UTC-5, David Kleinecke wrote:
…

Post by David Kleinecke
The Q Thomas Book is a publication of the Polebridge Press (Sonoma
California) which I think was Robert Funk's personal press and
so far as I know ceased publishing when Funk died.

…

It stopped short?

--
Jerry Friedman

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2020-01-04 08:18:39 UTC

Post by David Kleinecke
What, for example, dates a book as from 1980 today?

If that's the Crystal, it has things like borders around the illustrations
and captions, sans-serif bold headings IIRC,

Plenty of modern publications have those. I don't like them, but that's
not the point, which is that plenty of modern book designers do like
them.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
narrow columns, ...

The "Q Thomas Reader" (from 1980) doesn't seem to have any of
these characteristics - there are only a couple of illustrations
which don't seem to share any features. Perhaps the Crystal book
is an eccentric outlier.
PS: I wrote "outlayer" first - another version of lay/lie
confusion perhaps.

--
athel

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-04 14:51:44 UTC

Post by David Kleinecke
What, for example, dates a book as from 1980 today?

If that's the Crystal, it has things like borders around the illustrations
and captions, sans-serif bold headings IIRC,

Plenty of modern publications have those. I don't like them, but that's
not the point, which is that plenty of modern book designers do like
them.

Have a look at the book. I doubt you can confuse it for a contemporary
publication.

There's now apparently a 3rd edition. It presumably looks rather different
while preserving much of the content.

Katy Jennison

2020-01-03 23:41:49 UTC

On 03/01/2020 21:48, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

[snip]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Clerestory windows are low-height windows at a top level, for instance
peeping through a roof to light an attic, or at the base of a dome to
light the main space. If yours are directly above each window, they may
be transoms, which a surprising thread here a while ago tried to convince
us refers to the lintel above the doorway/below the window, while normal
people use it for the window itself. (I suppose it's like insisting that
"gargoyle" can't be used for anything but 'waterspout'.)

Pondial. The OED:

Transom: 1. a. In building, etc.: A cross-beam or cross-piece, esp. one
spanning an opening to carry a superstructure; a lintel.
[this exemplified by quotations dating from 1487]

Following this, 1.b. is the top-beam of a gallows, and c. a beam resting
across a saw-pit. 2. a. is a horizontal bar across a mullioned window.

Only after these do we get to:

2.b. Short for transom-window n. at Compounds 2: A window divided by a
transom; also a small window above the lintel of a door. U.S. colloquial.

--
Katy Jennison

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-03 23:46:56 UTC

Post by Katy Jennison
[snip]

Transom: 1. a. In building, etc.: A cross-beam or cross-piece, esp. one
spanning an opening to carry a superstructure; a lintel.
[this exemplified by quotations dating from 1487]
Following this, 1.b. is the top-beam of a gallows, and c. a beam resting
across a saw-pit. 2. a. is a horizontal bar across a mullioned window.

Which means it's a later sense, not somehow "inferior."

Post by Katy Jennison
2.b. Short for transom-window n. at Compounds 2: A window divided by a
transom; also a small window above the lintel of a door. U.S. colloquial.

Do they offer evidence that in 1920ish it was "colloquial"?

Nor have I encountered "transom(-)window." One might look in Wharton.
She also wrote books on interior design, and gardens.

Katy Jennison

2020-01-04 00:00:33 UTC

Post by Katy Jennison
[snip]

Which means it's a later sense, not somehow "inferior."

I don't recall saying 'inferior'. I said it was pondial.

You wrote (I quote) 'a surprising thread here a while ago tried to
convince us [transom] refers to the lintel above the doorway/below the
window, while normal people use it for the window itself.'

BrE speakers, you imply, are not 'normal', since in BrE a transom is not
a window (although it's many other things including part of a boat).
I'm sure you don't really mean that, when you come to think about it.

Post by Katy Jennison
2.b. Short for transom-window n. at Compounds 2: A window divided by a
transom; also a small window above the lintel of a door. U.S. colloquial.

Do they offer evidence that in 1920ish it was "colloquial"?
Nor have I encountered "transom(-)window." One might look in Wharton.
She also wrote books on interior design, and gardens.

--
Katy Jennison

Tony Cooper

2020-01-04 02:03:00 UTC

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 00:00:33 +0000, Katy Jennison

Post by Katy Jennison
[snip]

Which means it's a later sense, not somehow "inferior."

I don't recall saying 'inferior'. I said it was pondial.
You wrote (I quote) 'a surprising thread here a while ago tried to
convince us [transom] refers to the lintel above the doorway/below the
window, while normal people use it for the window itself.'
BrE speakers, you imply, are not 'normal', since in BrE a transom is not
a window (although it's many other things including part of a boat).
I'm sure you don't really mean that, when you come to think about it.

"Transom" is *short* for "transom-window", and - in the US - we do use
"transom" alone to describe that window. However, if we are normal,
we acknowledge that the cross-beam above the door is also a "transom".
I have replaced a door (garage to the outside) and remember the
instructions to check the integrity of the transom before fitting in
the new door. While a door can be purchased separately, usually we
buy a new door in a frame and replace the entire door and frame. One
does not want to install a new frame if the transom also needs
replacing.

We also use "transom" quite a bit to describe the cross-piece at the
stern of a boat. If a outboard motor is used, it clamps on the
transom. Owners of small boats often have to replace the transom.
It's wood, and subject to the stress of the outboard motor weight and
subject to rot from being wet.

Similar to saying "transom" as a shortening of "transom-window" is
saying "outboard" when we shorten "outboard motor" or "inboard" when
we shorten "inboard motor": "We have a 16' jon boat with a 15 hp
outboard".

I think we discussed "jon boat" recently and found that the term is
used in some places (like Florida), but is known by a different name
in other places (like Louisiana).

Post by Katy Jennison
2.b. Short for transom-window n. at Compounds 2: A window divided by a
transom; also a small window above the lintel of a door. U.S. colloquial.

Do they offer evidence that in 1920ish it was "colloquial"?
Nor have I encountered "transom(-)window." One might look in Wharton.
She also wrote books on interior design, and gardens.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2020-01-04 08:21:19 UTC

Post by Katy Jennison
[snip]

Which means it's a later sense, not somehow "inferior."

I don't recall saying 'inferior'. I said it was pondial.
You wrote (I quote) 'a surprising thread here a while ago tried to
convince us [transom] refers to the lintel above the doorway/below the
window, while normal people use it for the window itself.'
BrE speakers, you imply, are not 'normal', since in BrE a transom is
not a window (although it's many other things including part of a
boat). I'm sure you don't really mean that,

Are you really sure of that? I'm not, as I have the impression that PTD
really does think that British English is not normal.

Post by Katy Jennison
when you come to think about it.

Post by Katy Jennison
2.b. Short for transom-window n. at Compounds 2: A window divided by a
transom; also a small window above the lintel of a door. U.S. colloquial.

Do they offer evidence that in 1920ish it was "colloquial"?
Nor have I encountered "transom(-)window." One might look in Wharton.
She also wrote books on interior design, and gardens.

--
athel

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-04 15:58:42 UTC

Post by Katy Jennison
You wrote (I quote) 'a surprising thread here a while ago tried to
convince us [transom] refers to the lintel above the doorway/below the
window, while normal people use it for the window itself.'
BrE speakers, you imply, are not 'normal', since in BrE a transom is
not a window (although it's many other things including part of a
boat). I'm sure you don't really mean that,

Are you really sure of that? I'm not, as I have the impression that PTD
really does think that British English is not normal.

That depends on what the definition of "normal" is. You are, I believe,
a scientist? Also, you have slid from "people" to "English."

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-04 14:45:32 UTC

Post by Katy Jennison
[snip]

Which means it's a later sense, not somehow "inferior."

I don't recall saying 'inferior'. I said it was pondial.

What did "only" signify?

Post by Katy Jennison
You wrote (I quote) 'a surprising thread here a while ago tried to
convince us [transom] refers to the lintel above the doorway/below the
window, while normal people use it for the window itself.'
BrE speakers, you imply, are not 'normal', since in BrE a transom is not
a window (although it's many other things including part of a boat).
I'm sure you don't really mean that, when you come to think about it.

I don't recall it being claimed to be Pondial at that time -- if it had,
I'd have simply chalked it up to British eccentricity (cf. E. B. White's
"There'll always be an England," the heading of the imponderable quotes
they'd fill out columns on the New Yorker pages with).

Post by Katy Jennison
2.b. Short for transom-window n. at Compounds 2: A window divided by a
transom; also a small window above the lintel of a door. U.S. colloquial.

Do they offer evidence that in 1920ish it was "colloquial"?
Nor have I encountered "transom(-)window." One might look in Wharton.
She also wrote books on interior design, and gardens.

Katy Jennison

2020-01-04 18:06:40 UTC

Post by Katy Jennison
You wrote (I quote) 'a surprising thread here a while ago tried to
convince us [transom] refers to the lintel above the doorway/below the
window, while normal people use it for the window itself.'
BrE speakers, you imply, are not 'normal', since in BrE a transom is not
a window (although it's many other things including part of a boat).
I'm sure you don't really mean that, when you come to think about it.

It seems we discussed it in 2010 and in 2005 (were you here then,
Peter?). In May 2005, initiating a thread with the title 'British word
for "transom" (window over a door?)', Daniel P B Smith asks, with
reference to novels by Elizabeth George set in England:

"In her latest novel, she uses the word "transom" in the sense of a
small, hinged window over a door.

"I have a vague idea that "transom" in this sense is an Americanism, and
that in England a different word is used to refer to such a window. Am I
correct or have I merely experienced a random synaptic firing? And, of
course, if I'm correct, what's the word?"

Various people reply; Tony refers to a fanlight; Mike Lyle writes:

"Fanlight" is the usual BrE word, too; but I suspect that "transom
light" may be the technical expression -- Harvey will reveal if he
shows up. A transom is a cross-member: the top of the door-frame in a
house, but the stern-piece in a small boat. Not just decorative, of
course: they let in extra light. The hall, or whatever it's called,
in this flat has no windows, but is lit by "borrowed lights" (I think
that's the expression) over the doors opening off it: I suppose these
too are fanlights, unless it's only used for exterior ones."

Harvey (who, you will recall, is the actual expert here) writes:

"Fanlight, I'm pretty certain. (I can't recall hearing anyone in
architecture and building over here who uses "transom" to mean other
than the horizontal bar in a window or in wall panelling.)"

Daniel Smith (the OP) then replies;

"Thanks to all who answered. "Fanlight" is the word I was trying to
remember. And... do I take it that the consensus is... I really did
catch Elizabeth George in a mistake?"

And it seems he did; that is, no-one (on either side of the pond) was in
any doubt that in BrE the word 'fanlight' is the correct word for a
window over a door, not 'transom' which is AmE.

(Ah, those were the days! Contributors included Valentine, Lyle, Riggs,
Couperus, the Omrud, John Dean, Skitt, Robin Bignall, Robert Lieblich,
Roland Hutchinson, Frances Kemmish and Chris Malcolm, as well as those
few of us who are still here.)

--
Katy Jennison

Ken Blake

2019-12-21 17:39:21 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
…

"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which must
be cognate to German "quellen". The Dutch word must be cognate to
German "Qual".
In grad school, when my officemates and I were studying for the
qualifying examination or "qual", I taped a piece of paper onto
Und wenn der Mensch in seiner Qual verstummt,
Gab mir ein Gott zu sagen, was ich leide.

The first line of "Die Walküre" is "Ein Quell, ein Quell" ("a drink, a
drink.") Is that the same word?

No, that's German for a spring of water, a well, a source. As far
as I can tell it's a literary word, and the everyday word is
Quelle. It doesn't have a cognate in modern English.

Thank you.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I know what little German I know from the same kinds of sources as

I used to know a lot more German than I do now. I studied it in college,
but my last German class was 62 years ago

Post by Jerry Friedman
Leise, rieselnder Quell,
Ihr wallenden, flispernden Pappeln.
http://youtu.be/Cs6EPriC4c0
German "Qual" (torture, agony) is related to Dutch "kwellen",
mentioned by Jan above, and English "quell", according to the OED.

--
Ken

J. J. Lodder

2019-12-21 20:38:01 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
-

"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which must
be cognate to German "quellen". The Dutch word must be cognate to
German "Qual".
In grad school, when my officemates and I were studying for the
qualifying examination or "qual", I taped a piece of paper onto
Und wenn der Mensch in seiner Qual verstummt,
Gab mir ein Gott zu sagen, was ich leide.

The first line of "Die Walküre" is "Ein Quell, ein Quell" ("a drink, a
drink.") Is that the same word?

Yes, same root. What is output to a source is input to a drinker.

Jan

Jerry Friedman

2019-12-22 14:46:33 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
-

"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which must
be cognate to German "quellen".

German 'Quellen' doesn't have that meaning in my dictionaries,

You explain the connection below.

and it is cognate with Dutch 'wellen', 'kewllen'.
First meaning, early middle ages.
Cognate with English well, as source.
Dutch 'kwelwater' is water that wells up. (E. Seep')

Post by Jerry Friedman
The Dutch word must be cognate to German "Qual".

Indeed, that is Dutch 'kwellen', second meaning.
It is what god and satan do to Job.
The Jiddish

Oy vey.

'kvel' derives from 'kwel/quell' (first meaning) indirectly.
Wells may overflow, gush, or even spout.
And that is precisey what parents who can't stop praising their
offspring do.
===
Origin of kvell
1965-70, Americanism; < Yiddish kveln be delighted; compare Middle High
German, German quellen well up, gush
===

It's sort of interesting if kveln lost the literal meaning related
to water.

and that seems corect to me,

That's what I guessed, but I didn't go so far as to look it up (or
remember what I must have read in /The Joys of Yiddish/ a number
of years ago).

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter T. Daniels

2019-12-22 15:14:01 UTC

"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which must
be cognate to German "quellen".

German 'Quellen' doesn't have that meaning in my dictionaries,

You explain the connection below.

and it is cognate with Dutch 'wellen', 'kewllen'.
First meaning, early middle ages.
Cognate with English well, as source.
Dutch 'kwelwater' is water that wells up. (E. Seep')

Post by Jerry Friedman
The Dutch word must be cognate to German "Qual".

Indeed, that is Dutch 'kwellen', second meaning.
It is what god and satan do to Job.
The Jiddish

Oy vey.

It's sort of interesting if kveln lost the literal meaning related
to water.

and that seems corect to me,

That's what I guessed, but I didn't go so far as to look it up (or
remember what I must have read in /The Joys of Yiddish/ a number
of years ago).

It forms a sort of contranym with "quell" as in quell suspicions,
quell a riot.

Mack A. Damia

2019-12-22 16:25:58 UTC

On Sun, 22 Dec 2019 07:14:01 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which must
be cognate to German "quellen".

German 'Quellen' doesn't have that meaning in my dictionaries,

You explain the connection below.

and it is cognate with Dutch 'wellen', 'kewllen'.
First meaning, early middle ages.
Cognate with English well, as source.
Dutch 'kwelwater' is water that wells up. (E. Seep')

Post by Jerry Friedman
The Dutch word must be cognate to German "Qual".

Indeed, that is Dutch 'kwellen', second meaning.
It is what god and satan do to Job.
The Jiddish

Oy vey.

It's sort of interesting if kveln lost the literal meaning related
to water.

and that seems corect to me,

That's what I guessed, but I didn't go so far as to look it up (or
remember what I must have read in /The Joys of Yiddish/ a number
of years ago).

It forms a sort of contranym with "quell" as in quell suspicions,
quell a riot.

Quelch the headmaster.

J. J. Lodder

2019-12-23 08:47:19 UTC

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 22 Dec 2019 07:14:01 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

[-]

Post by Jerry Friedman
"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which must
be cognate to German "quellen".

German 'Quellen' doesn't have that meaning in my dictionaries,

You explain the connection below.

and it is cognate with Dutch 'wellen', 'kewllen'.
First meaning, early middle ages.
Cognate with English well, as source.
Dutch 'kwelwater' is water that wells up. (E. Seep')

Post by Jerry Friedman
The Dutch word must be cognate to German "Qual".

Indeed, that is Dutch 'kwellen', second meaning.
It is what god and satan do to Job.
The Jiddish

Oy vey.

It's sort of interesting if kveln lost the literal meaning related
to water.

and that seems corect to me,

That's what I guessed, but I didn't go so far as to look it up (or
remember what I must have read in /The Joys of Yiddish/ a number
of years ago).

It forms a sort of contranym with "quell" as in quell suspicions,
quell a riot.

Quelch the headmaster.

Related to the 'squelch' function in radio receivers?

Jan

Kerr-Mudd,John

2019-12-23 10:09:04 UTC

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 22 Dec 2019 07:14:01 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

[-]

Post by Jerry Friedman
"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which
must be cognate to German "quellen".

German 'Quellen' doesn't have that meaning in my dictionaries,

You explain the connection below.

and it is cognate with Dutch 'wellen', 'kewllen'.
First meaning, early middle ages.
Cognate with English well, as source.
Dutch 'kwelwater' is water that wells up. (E. Seep')

Post by Jerry Friedman
The Dutch word must be cognate to German "Qual".

Indeed, that is Dutch 'kwellen', second meaning.
It is what god and satan do to Job.
The Jiddish

Oy vey.

'kvel' derives from 'kwel/quell' (first meaning) indirectly.
Wells may overflow, gush, or even spout.
And that is precisey what parents who can't stop praising their
offspring do.
===
Origin of kvell
1965-70, Americanism; < Yiddish kveln be delighted; compare
Middle High German, German quellen well up, gush
===

It's sort of interesting if kveln lost the literal meaning related
to water.

and that seems corect to me,

That's what I guessed, but I didn't go so far as to look it up (or
remember what I must have read in /The Joys of Yiddish/ a number
of years ago).

It forms a sort of contranym with "quell" as in quell suspicions,
quell a riot.

Quelch the headmaster.

Wasn't he the caretaker?
Ah sorry, that was Argus Filch.

Post by J. J. Lodder
Related to the 'squelch' function in radio receivers?
Jan

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Mack A. Damia

2019-12-23 12:01:00 UTC

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 22 Dec 2019 07:14:01 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

[-]

Post by Jerry Friedman
"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which must
be cognate to German "quellen".

German 'Quellen' doesn't have that meaning in my dictionaries,

You explain the connection below.

and it is cognate with Dutch 'wellen', 'kewllen'.
First meaning, early middle ages.
Cognate with English well, as source.
Dutch 'kwelwater' is water that wells up. (E. Seep')

Post by Jerry Friedman
The Dutch word must be cognate to German "Qual".

Indeed, that is Dutch 'kwellen', second meaning.
It is what god and satan do to Job.
The Jiddish

Oy vey.

It's sort of interesting if kveln lost the literal meaning related
to water.

and that seems corect to me,

That's what I guessed, but I didn't go so far as to look it up (or
remember what I must have read in /The Joys of Yiddish/ a number
of years ago).

It forms a sort of contranym with "quell" as in quell suspicions,
quell a riot.

Quelch the headmaster.

Related to the 'squelch' function in radio receivers?

Billy Bunter of Greyfriars School.

J. J. Lodder

2019-12-23 22:08:01 UTC

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 22 Dec 2019 07:14:01 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

[-]

Post by Jerry Friedman
"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which must
be cognate to German "quellen".

German 'Quellen' doesn't have that meaning in my dictionaries,

You explain the connection below.

and it is cognate with Dutch 'wellen', 'kewllen'.
First meaning, early middle ages.
Cognate with English well, as source.
Dutch 'kwelwater' is water that wells up. (E. Seep')

Post by Jerry Friedman
The Dutch word must be cognate to German "Qual".

Indeed, that is Dutch 'kwellen', second meaning.
It is what god and satan do to Job.
The Jiddish

Oy vey.

It's sort of interesting if kveln lost the literal meaning related
to water.

and that seems corect to me,

That's what I guessed, but I didn't go so far as to look it up (or
remember what I must have read in /The Joys of Yiddish/ a number
of years ago).

It forms a sort of contranym with "quell" as in quell suspicions,
quell a riot.

Quelch the headmaster.

Related to the 'squelch' function in radio receivers?

Billy Bunter of Greyfriars School.

Yes, that's what we have been referring to in this thread, on and off.
You do know what 'squelch' means?

Jan

Mack A. Damia

2019-12-23 22:36:11 UTC

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 22 Dec 2019 07:14:01 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

[-]

Post by Jerry Friedman
"Kvel" is Yiddish for "gloat, savor some good fortune", which must
be cognate to German "quellen".

German 'Quellen' doesn't have that meaning in my dictionaries,

You explain the connection below.

and it is cognate with Dutch 'wellen', 'kewllen'.
First meaning, early middle ages.
Cognate with English well, as source.
Dutch 'kwelwater' is water that wells up. (E. Seep')

Post by Jerry Friedman
The Dutch word must be cognate to German "Qual".

Indeed, that is Dutch 'kwellen', second meaning.
It is what god and satan do to Job.
The Jiddish

Oy vey.

It's sort of interesting if kveln lost the literal meaning related
to water.

and that seems corect to me,

That's what I guessed, but I didn't go so far as to look it up (or
remember what I must have read in /The Joys of Yiddish/ a number
of years ago).

It forms a sort of contranym with "quell" as in quell suspicions,
quell a riot.

Quelch the headmaster.

Related to the 'squelch' function in radio receivers?

Billy Bunter of Greyfriars School.

Yes, that's what we have been referring to in this thread, on and off.
You do know what 'squelch' means?

Several definitions, noun and verb.

Peter T. Daniels

2019-12-21 15:25:31 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
What are the possible meanings of: "It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

Something I forgot to mention is that I wonder why 'Arrison threw
a gratuitous insult at Katy. What did she do to deserve that? If
it had been me or Jenny Telia it would have been understandable, as
we haven't always been willing to acknowledge his genius.

Yiddish "kvell" is what proud parents/grandparents do when their offspring
do something truly remarkable, like recite a whole poem for the group.

"Quell" is 'suppress'.

Your word goes with the meaning of neither.

CDB

2019-12-22 13:52:13 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this
one.
What are the possible meanings of: "It stopped,
short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

Something I forgot to mention is that I wonder why 'Arrison
threw a gratuitous insult at Katy. What did she do to deserve
that? If it had been me or Jenny Telia it would have been
understandable, as we haven't always been willing to
acknowledge his genius.

I don't think you were the target. HH has been picking away at
Laura since she made it plain, in a tone that I associate with the
quelling of undergraduates, that he did not impress her. There is
a lot of troll in him.
ObDisambiguation: not "kvelling".

Close. Mr Quelch translates to Dutch as Mr Kwel. From 'kwellen',
'kwelling', for which the dictionary gives 'harassment; agony;
torture; torment; pain; ordeal; test; testing.
James Joyce could have made something out of it,

AIUI, "kvellen" is Yiddish for "bubble over" in a metaphorical sense.
It's related to German "Quelle" (well, spring) so I wanted to rule that
"quell" out.

It's a word I learned relatively recently, and I'm still playing with it.

I see that I have been anticipated. Don't care. Sending anyway.

J. J. Lodder

2019-12-23 08:47:20 UTC

Post by CDB

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this
one.
What are the possible meanings of: "It stopped,
short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

Something I forgot to mention is that I wonder why 'Arrison
threw a gratuitous insult at Katy. What did she do to deserve
that? If it had been me or Jenny Telia it would have been
understandable, as we haven't always been willing to
acknowledge his genius.

I don't think you were the target. HH has been picking away at
Laura since she made it plain, in a tone that I associate with the
quelling of undergraduates, that he did not impress her. There is
a lot of troll in him.
ObDisambiguation: not "kvelling".

Close. Mr Quelch translates to Dutch as Mr Kwel. From 'kwellen',
'kwelling', for which the dictionary gives 'harassment; agony;
torture; torment; pain; ordeal; test; testing.
James Joyce could have made something out of it,

AIUI, "kvellen" is Yiddish for "bubble over" in a metaphorical sense.
It's related to German "Quelle" (well, spring) so I wanted to rule that
"quell" out.
It's a word I learned relatively recently, and I'm still playing with it.
I see that I have been anticipated. Don't care. Sending anyway.

The overflowing well image is still alive in the Dutch proverb:
'Waar het hart vol van is, loopt de mond van over'
'waar het hart vol van is, de mond van overloopt'
'waar het hart vol van is, overvloeit de mond' etc.
(lit. what the hart is full off, the mouth flows over with)

If the mind is filled with just one subject
the mouth must spout talk about it.
(and unlike kvel, not just praise)

Don't know about an English equivalent for it,

Jan

CDB

2019-12-23 13:33:57 UTC

[kvelling and welling]

'Waar het hart vol van is, loopt de mond van over' 'waar het hart vol
van is, de mond van overloopt' 'waar het hart vol van is, overvloeit
de mond' etc. (lit. what the hart is full off, the mouth flows over
with)
If the mind is filled with just one subject the mouth must spout
talk about it. (and unlike kvel, not just praise)
Don't know about an English equivalent for it,

I can't think of one.

Stefan Ram

2019-12-23 15:19:19 UTC

Post by CDB
[kvelling and welling]

I can't think of one.

The heart quotation is based on a text in the Bible.

|for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 12:34

Stefan Ram

2019-12-23 15:38:47 UTC

Post by Stefan Ram

Post by CDB
[kvelling and welling]

|for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 12:34

And the Matthew Henry commentary also mentions fountains and
streams:

|Men's language discovers what country they are of, likewise
|what manner of spirit they are of. The heart is the fountain,
|words are the streams. A troubled fountain, and a corrupt
|spring, must send forth muddy and unpleasant streams.

.

CDB

2019-12-23 19:12:30 UTC

Post by Stefan Ram

Post by CDB
[kvelling and welling]

|for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. Matthew
12:34

And the Matthew Henry commentary also mentions fountains and
|Men's language discovers what country they are of, likewise |what
manner of spirit they are of. The heart is the fountain, |words are
the streams. A troubled fountain, and a corrupt |spring, must send
forth muddy and unpleasant streams.

Thanks for those comments on the origins of the phrase. I see, reading
ahead, that Mack has posted too; thanks to both.

I don't think it ever became a proverb around here. Probably quoted in
plenty of sermons, though.

Mack A. Damia

2019-12-23 16:35:02 UTC

Post by Stefan Ram

Post by CDB
[kvelling and welling]

I can't think of one.

The heart quotation is based on a text in the Bible.
|for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 12:34

That'll teach me to read more before I post.

Mack A. Damia

2019-12-23 16:34:19 UTC

Post by CDB
[kvelling and welling]

I can't think of one.

"For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks."
(Matthew 12:34)

J. J. Lodder

2019-12-23 22:08:01 UTC

Post by CDB
[kvelling and welling]

I can't think of one.

"For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks."
(Matthew 12:34)

Thanks, I should have known,

Jan

Quinn C

2019-12-29 19:01:35 UTC

Post by CDB
[kvelling and welling]

I can't think of one.

"For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks."
(Matthew 12:34)

Thanks, I should have known,

It's easy to know in German because it's known in Luther's
old-fashioned wording:

Wes das Herz voll ist, des geht der Mund über.

These "wes" and "des" aren't used any more.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

J. J. Lodder

2019-12-29 21:48:09 UTC

Post by CDB
[kvelling and welling]

I can't think of one.

"For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks."
(Matthew 12:34)

Thanks, I should have known,

It's easy to know in German because it's known in Luther's
Wes das Herz voll ist, des geht der Mund über.
These "wes" and "des" aren't used any more.

Doesn't work in Dutch. De 'Statenvertaling' gives:
Gij adderengebroedsels! hoe kunt gij goede dingen spreken, daar gij boos
zijt? want uit den overvloed des harten spreekt de mond.

De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

Jan

Jerry Friedman

2019-12-31 14:42:50 UTC

Post by CDB
[kvelling and welling]

I can't think of one.

"For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks."
(Matthew 12:34)

Thanks, I should have known,

It's easy to know in German because it's known in Luther's
Wes das Herz voll ist, des geht der Mund über.
These "wes" and "des" aren't used any more.

Gij adderengebroedsels! hoe kunt gij goede dingen spreken, daar gij boos
zijt? want uit den overvloed des harten spreekt de mond.
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter T. Daniels

2019-12-31 16:24:25 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

I wonder what generates vipers, the way rotting meat generates maggots.

b***@aol.com

2019-12-31 16:46:03 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

I wonder what generates vipers, the way rotting meat generates maggots.

Eggs.

Sam Plusnet

2019-12-31 18:50:18 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

I wonder what generates vipers, the way rotting meat generates maggots.

Eggs.

Actly.

--
Sam Plusnet

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-12-31 20:02:48 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

I wonder what generates vipers, the way rotting meat generates maggots.

Eggs.
The purest fountain water, said Van Helmont, placed in a vase
impregnated with a ferment, goes mouldy and engenders worms. The odours
that rise from the bottoms of marshes produce frogs, slugs, leaches,
grasses.... Make a hole in a brick, introduce some crushed basil, put a
second brick on top of the first in such a way that the hole is
perfectly covered, expose the two bricks to the sun, and after several
days the odour of the basil, acting as a ferment, will change the plant
into veritable scorpions.

--
athel

J. J. Lodder

2019-12-31 18:32:06 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

I wonder what generates vipers, the way rotting meat generates maggots.

Vipers of course.
Generate here should be read as 'generate of vipers',
or more American-like 'sons of vipers',

Jan

Peter T. Daniels

2019-12-31 19:07:09 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

I wonder what generates vipers, the way rotting meat generates maggots.

Vipers of course.
Generate here should be read as 'generate of vipers',
or more American-like 'sons of vipers',

I guess you're not familiar with the biological concept of "spontaneous
generation," which was not laid to rest until, I think, Pasteur.

J. J. Lodder

2020-01-01 13:26:40 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

I wonder what generates vipers, the way rotting meat generates maggots.

Vipers of course.
Generate here should be read as 'generate of vipers',
or more American-like 'sons of vipers',

I guess you're not familiar with the biological concept of "spontaneous
generation," which was not laid to rest until, I think, Pasteur.

Do you really believe that Matthew or his translators
thought in these terms?

Jan

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-01 16:29:33 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

I wonder what generates vipers, the way rotting meat generates maggots.

Vipers of course.
Generate here should be read as 'generate of vipers',
or more American-like 'sons of vipers',

I guess you're not familiar with the biological concept of "spontaneous
generation," which was not laid to rest until, I think, Pasteur.

Do you really believe that Matthew or his translators
thought in these terms?

No, I really believe that an opportunity to make a pun should rarely
be passed up.

J. J. Lodder

2019-12-31 17:36:00 UTC

Post by CDB
[kvelling and welling]

I can't think of one.

"For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks."
(Matthew 12:34)

Thanks, I should have known,

It's easy to know in German because it's known in Luther's
Wes das Herz voll ist, des geht der Mund über.
These "wes" and "des" aren't used any more.

Gij adderengebroedsels! hoe kunt gij goede dingen spreken, daar gij boos
zijt? want uit den overvloed des harten spreekt de mond.
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

Yes. Some later English translations have 'You brood of vipers',
which is closer to the early Dutch, (but less poetic)
and I guess more correct.

It raises an interresting question though.
A 'broedsel' is the result of breeding out eggs,
a nestful of chickens, in the case of a hen.
Now 'adders' don't do that, they are viviparous.
OTOH 'adders' were the only poisonous snakes
the translators and their readers knew about.

What kind of snake was Matthew thinking of?
(supposing he knew what he was talking about)

Jan

Quinn C

2019-12-31 18:21:33 UTC

Post by CDB
[kvelling and welling]

I can't think of one.

"For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks."
(Matthew 12:34)

Thanks, I should have known,

It's easy to know in German because it's known in Luther's
Wes das Herz voll ist, des geht der Mund über.
These "wes" and "des" aren't used any more.

Gij adderengebroedsels! hoe kunt gij goede dingen spreken, daar gij boos
zijt? want uit den overvloed des harten spreekt de mond.
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

Yes. Some later English translations have 'You brood of vipers',
which is closer to the early Dutch, (but less poetic)
and I guess more correct.
It raises an interresting question though.
A 'broedsel' is the result of breeding out eggs,
a nestful of chickens, in the case of a hen.
Now 'adders' don't do that, they are viviparous.
OTOH 'adders' were the only poisonous snakes
the translators and their readers knew about.
What kind of snake was Matthew thinking of?
(supposing he knew what he was talking about)

The German word in this context, Natterngezücht, is a nice
old-fashioned insult as well.

However, while "Natter" is etymologically the same as "adder" (which
came about as a misdivision of "a nadder"), the word is (at least now)
used for colubrids, mostly harmless snakes. So I'm not sure if it was
important whether the snakes were venomous. All snakes were of the
devil anyway.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Jerry Friedman

2019-12-31 18:45:35 UTC

[Matt. 12:34]

Post by J. J. Lodder
Gij adderengebroedsels! hoe kunt gij goede dingen spreken, daar gij boos
zijt? want uit den overvloed des harten spreekt de mond.
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

Yes. Some later English translations have 'You brood of vipers',
which is closer to the early Dutch, (but less poetic)
and I guess more correct.
It raises an interresting question though.
A 'broedsel' is the result of breeding out eggs,
a nestful of chickens, in the case of a hen.
Now 'adders' don't do that, they are viviparous.
OTOH 'adders' were the only poisonous snakes
the translators and their readers knew about.
What kind of snake was Matthew thinking of?
(supposing he knew what he was talking about)

To know what Matthew was talking about, you'd have to look at the
original, which seems to be γεννήματα ἐχιδνῶν. Over to those who know
Koine.

As for the Dutch translators and readers, they may have had some
idea that there were other venomous snakes in warmer climates.
Israel seems to offer the Desert Black Snake or Black Desert
Cobra (Elapidae) and some snakes of the family Lamprophiidae
that are venomous and egg-laying, such as /Atractaspis engaddensis/,
the Israeli Mole Viper, which has fangs that can project outside
its mouth, giving it the charming ability to strike sideways.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter T. Daniels

2019-12-31 19:12:24 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
To know what Matthew was talking about, you'd have to look at the
original, which seems to be γεννήματα ἐχιδνῶν. Over to those who know
Koine.
As for the Dutch translators and readers, they may have had some
idea that there were other venomous snakes in warmer climates.
Israel seems to offer the Desert Black Snake or Black Desert
Cobra (Elapidae) and some snakes of the family Lamprophiidae
that are venomous and egg-laying, such as /Atractaspis engaddensis/,
the Israeli Mole Viper, which has fangs that can project outside
its mouth, giving it the charming ability to strike sideways.

Curiously, Shak.'s Cleopatra isn't done in by an asp. I don't know
whether any particular identification is given.

Quinn C

2019-12-31 19:48:21 UTC

Interesting. From the scientific name, I would have looked for that
snake in Switzerland. In fact, "engaddensis" does refer to a location,
but it's Ein Gedi in Israel, not the Engadin(e).

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

J. J. Lodder

2020-01-01 13:26:40 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
[Matt. 12:34]

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

Yes. Some later English translations have 'You brood of vipers',
which is closer to the early Dutch, (but less poetic)
and I guess more correct.
It raises an interresting question though.
A 'broedsel' is the result of breeding out eggs,
a nestful of chickens, in the case of a hen.
Now 'adders' don't do that, they are viviparous.
OTOH 'adders' were the only poisonous snakes
the translators and their readers knew about.
What kind of snake was Matthew thinking of?
(supposing he knew what he was talking about)

To know what Matthew was talking about, you'd have to look at the
original, which seems to be ????????? ???????. Over to those who know
Koine.
As for the Dutch translators and readers, they may have had some
idea that there were other venomous snakes in warmer climates.

The 'Statenvertaling' dates from 1618-1637.
I guess it can't have been much more than 'some idea'.
They liked it, for John the Baptist also adresses his audience
with 'Gij Adderengebroesels'.
Some of his audience must have turned away in disgust.

Post by Jerry Friedman
Israel seems to offer the Desert Black Snake or Black Desert
Cobra (Elapidae) and some snakes of the family Lamprophiidae
that are venomous and egg-laying, such as /Atractaspis engaddensis/,
the Israeli Mole Viper, which has fangs that can project outside
its mouth, giving it the charming ability to strike sideways.

BTW, are there snakes that actually breed?
(that is, partly keep their eggs warm themselves)

Jan

Jerry Friedman

2020-01-01 14:59:04 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
[Matt. 12:34]

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

Yes. Some later English translations have 'You brood of vipers',
which is closer to the early Dutch, (but less poetic)
and I guess more correct.
It raises an interresting question though.
A 'broedsel' is the result of breeding out eggs,
a nestful of chickens, in the case of a hen.
Now 'adders' don't do that, they are viviparous.
OTOH 'adders' were the only poisonous snakes
the translators and their readers knew about.
What kind of snake was Matthew thinking of?
(supposing he knew what he was talking about)

To know what Matthew was talking about, you'd have to look at the
original, which seems to be ????????? ???????.

Or gennEmata echidnOn.

Post by Jerry Friedman
Over to those who know Koine.
As for the Dutch translators and readers, they may have had some
idea that there were other venomous snakes in warmer climates.

…

I would think so. The movement didn't really catch on till later.

Post by J. J. Lodder
BTW, are there snakes that actually breed?
(that is, partly keep their eggs warm themselves)

Apparently so (and you mean "brood", not "breed").

http://snakesarelong.blogspot.com/2015/11/snakes-that-are-good-parents.html

--
Jerry Friedman

J. J. Lodder

2020-01-02 10:38:42 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
[Matt. 12:34]

Post by J. J. Lodder
Gij adderengebroedsels! hoe kunt gij goede dingen spreken, daar
gij boos zijt? want uit den overvloed des harten spreekt de
mond.
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

Yes. Some later English translations have 'You brood of vipers',
which is closer to the early Dutch, (but less poetic)
and I guess more correct.
It raises an interresting question though.
A 'broedsel' is the result of breeding out eggs,
a nestful of chickens, in the case of a hen.
Now 'adders' don't do that, they are viviparous.
OTOH 'adders' were the only poisonous snakes
the translators and their readers knew about.
What kind of snake was Matthew thinking of?
(supposing he knew what he was talking about)

To know what Matthew was talking about, you'd have to look at the
original, which seems to be ????????? ???????.

Or gennEmata echidnOn.

Post by Jerry Friedman
Over to those who know Koine.
As for the Dutch translators and readers, they may have had some
idea that there were other venomous snakes in warmer climates.

I would think so. The movement didn't really catch on till later.

Is 'publikumsbeschimpfung' known in English as a word?
Of course preaching to the audience that they are all sinners
is of all times, but that is a state that can supposedly be cured
by listening attentively and becoming a follower.
Preaching that they are 'a brood of vipers' isn't a brilliant idea,
for apparently such a brood is inherently bad.
Perhaps the evangelist, writing decades later overdid it a bit.

Post by J. J. Lodder
BTW, are there snakes that actually breed?
(that is, partly keep their eggs warm themselves)

Apparently so (and you mean "brood", not "breed").
http://snakesarelong.blogspot.com/2015/11/snakes-that-are-good-parents.html

Thanks. So they do egg recovery too, like birds,
and will also brood rocks. Strong instincts!

Jan

Peter Young

2020-01-01 17:17:06 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
[Matt. 12:34]

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

Yes. Some later English translations have 'You brood of vipers',
which is closer to the early Dutch, (but less poetic)
and I guess more correct.
It raises an interresting question though.
A 'broedsel' is the result of breeding out eggs,
a nestful of chickens, in the case of a hen.
Now 'adders' don't do that, they are viviparous.
OTOH 'adders' were the only poisonous snakes
the translators and their readers knew about.
What kind of snake was Matthew thinking of?
(supposing he knew what he was talking about)

BTW, are there snakes that actually breed?
(that is, partly keep their eggs warm themselves)

I think you mean "actually brood". The certainly actively breed, but
that's a different word.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

RH Draney

2020-01-01 21:25:58 UTC

And being Israeli, strikes from right to left....r

J. J. Lodder

2020-01-02 12:27:54 UTC

Post by RH Draney

And being Israeli, strikes from right to left....r

Of course, being Israeli they know that right is right,
and left is wrong, so they deserve to be stricken.

Trump agrees,

Jan

Ross

2020-01-01 23:14:40 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
[Matt. 12:34]

KJE "generation of vipers", I imagine.

Yes. Some later English translations have 'You brood of vipers',
which is closer to the early Dutch, (but less poetic)
and I guess more correct.
It raises an interresting question though.
A 'broedsel' is the result of breeding out eggs,
a nestful of chickens, in the case of a hen.
Now 'adders' don't do that, they are viviparous.
OTOH 'adders' were the only poisonous snakes
the translators and their readers knew about.
What kind of snake was Matthew thinking of?
(supposing he knew what he was talking about)

To know what Matthew was talking about, you'd have to look at the
original, which seems to be γεννήματα ἐχιδνῶν.

"Generation of echidnas"?!

echidna (n.)
Australian egg-laying hedgehog-like mammal, 1810,
said to have been named by Cuvier, usually explained
as from Greek ekhidna "snake, viper" (also used metaphorically of a treacherous wife or friend),
from ekhis "snake," from PIE *angwhi- "snake, eel"...

But this sense is difficult to reconcile with this
animal (unless it is a reference to the ant-eating
tongue). The name perhaps belongs to Latin echinus,
Greek ekhinos "sea-urchin," originally "hedgehog"
(in Greek also "sharp points"), which Watkins explains
as "snake-eater," from ekhis "snake." The 1810
Encyclopaedia Britannica gives as the animal's
alternative name "porcupine ant-eater." Or, more
likely, the name refers to Echidna as the name of a serpent-nymph in Greek mythology, "a beautiful woman
in the upper part of her body; but instead of legs
and feet, she had from the waist downward, the form
of a serpent," in which case the animal was so named
for its mixed characteristics (early naturalists doubted whether it was mammal or amphibian).

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=echidna

Anders D. Nygaard

2020-01-02 12:03:21 UTC

Post by CDB
[kvelling and welling]

I can't think of one.

"For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks."
(Matthew 12:34)

Thanks, I should have known,

It's easy to know in German because it's known in Luther's
Wes das Herz voll ist, des geht der Mund über.
These "wes" and "des" aren't used any more.

Gij adderengebroedsels! hoe kunt gij goede dingen spreken, daar gij boos
zijt? want uit den overvloed des harten spreekt de mond.

Reminds me of the saying: "Remember to engage brain before putting
mouth into gear" (not you, but the quote).

Post by J. J. Lodder
De 'adderengebroedsels' is great, but the rest is not memorable.

The Danish has "øgleunger" or "øgleyngel". Lizards, not snakes.

/Anders, Denmark.

Ken Blake

2019-12-21 15:42:31 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

Something I forgot to mention is that I wonder why 'Arrison threw a
gratuitous insult at Katy. What did she do to deserve that? If it had
been me or Jenny Telia it would have been understandable, as we haven't
always been willing to acknowledge his genius.

I did wonder that myself. Along with observing the presence of 'was'
instead of 'were', and that the comma there is an instance of indicating
a pause or a check rather than being required for the grammar. And why
Laura in particular, especially as I've known the song since I was five
or six, and therefore almost certainly longer than Laura can have done.
On the other hand, I don't recollect any acknowledgements of genius,
either. Agreement, conceivably, once or twice, yes. Even a stopped
clock is right twice a day.

My mother-in-law, in her last days, was living in a nursery home. Her
dementia was terrible. Whenever we visted her she was wearing a wrist
watch. It worked, potentially, but it never worked, actually, because
she never wound it. She would always say it was right twice a day, but
if she wound it, it would always be a minute or two wrong. If you think
she said that as a joke, I can assure you that it's wasn't a joke; she
meant it. The idea that she wouldn't know which two times a day it was
right never occurred to her.

She didn't need to know the time. A bell rang when it was mealtime. I
remember visiting her once. She didn't recognize us, so my wife (her
daughter) said "I'm Eileen." She replied "Oh, what a coincidence, I have
a daughter named Eileen."

Then the bell rang, and she scooted off to the dining room as fast as
she could make her wheelchair go.

--
Ken

Kerr-Mudd,John

2019-12-21 19:12:02 UTC

Post by Ken Blake

In article

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

Something I forgot to mention is that I wonder why 'Arrison threw a
gratuitous insult at Katy. What did she do to deserve that? If it
had been me or Jenny Telia it would have been understandable, as we
haven't always been willing to acknowledge his genius.

I did wonder that myself. Along with observing the presence of 'was'
instead of 'were', and that the comma there is an instance of
indicating a pause or a check rather than being required for the
grammar. And why Laura in particular, especially as I've known the
song since I was five or six, and therefore almost certainly longer
than Laura can have done.
On the other hand, I don't recollect any acknowledgements of genius,
either. Agreement, conceivably, once or twice, yes. Even a stopped
clock is right twice a day.

My mother-in-law, in her last days, was living in a nursery home. Her
dementia was terrible. Whenever we visted her she was wearing a wrist
watch. It worked, potentially, but it never worked, actually, because
she never wound it. She would always say it was right twice a day, but
if she wound it, it would always be a minute or two wrong. If you
think she said that as a joke, I can assure you that it's wasn't a
joke; she meant it. The idea that she wouldn't know which two times a
day it was right never occurred to her.
She didn't need to know the time. A bell rang when it was mealtime. I
remember visiting her once. She didn't recognize us, so my wife (her
daughter) said "I'm Eileen." She replied "Oh, what a coincidence, I
have a daughter named Eileen."
Then the bell rang, and she scooted off to the dining room as fast as
she could make her wheelchair go.

Pavlov's work was seminal.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Stefan Ram

2019-12-21 21:39:29 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
She didn't recognize us, so my wife (her
daughter) said "I'm Eileen." She replied "Oh, what a coincidence, I have
a daughter named Eileen."

Differential diagnosis: cruelty of an embittered old woman

Ken Blake

2019-12-22 01:25:02 UTC

Post by Ken Blake

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

Something I forgot to mention is that I wonder why 'Arrison threw a
gratuitous insult at Katy. What did she do to deserve that? If it had
been me or Jenny Telia it would have been understandable, as we haven't
always been willing to acknowledge his genius.

I did wonder that myself. Along with observing the presence of 'was'
instead of 'were', and that the comma there is an instance of indicating
a pause or a check rather than being required for the grammar. And why
Laura in particular, especially as I've known the song since I was five
or six, and therefore almost certainly longer than Laura can have done.
On the other hand, I don't recollect any acknowledgements of genius,
either. Agreement, conceivably, once or twice, yes. Even a stopped
clock is right twice a day.

That's the way it goes, with some intelligent but dementing people.
They have a large repertoire of stock phrases that have stuck,

Yes. But in this case, besides being demented, she was not at all
intelligent.

and they use them in a more or less competent way.
They will also shift subject rapidly and easily
when they sense there is something wrong.
(without understanding what or why)
And it may develop very gradually,
so it may take a long time for others
to get a 'something is not right' feeling.
They may easily fool superficial or not too clever observers,
but as you say, the effect on those who do see is indeed terrible,
Jan
(with some experience with it)
PS Iris Murdoch may have been a typical example.

Unlike my mother-in-law, she was very intelligent.

<https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2004/dec/iris-murdochs-last-novel-reveals-fi
rst-signs-alzheimers-disease>

--
Ken

Madhu

2019-12-23 05:17:59 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
My mother-in-law, in her last days, was living in a nursery home. Her
dementia was terrible. Whenever we visted her she was wearing a wrist
watch. It worked, potentially, but it never worked, actually, because
she never wound it. She would always say it was right twice a day, but
if she wound it, it would always be a minute or two wrong. If you
think she said that as a joke, I can assure you that it's wasn't a
joke; she meant it.

I'm not convinced that the humour in this was impaired by dementia.

Lewis

2019-12-21 16:34:23 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
What are the possible meanings of: "It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

Something I forgot to mention is that I wonder why 'Arrison threw
a gratuitous insult at Katy. What did she do to deserve that? If
it had been me or Jenny Telia it would have been understandable, as
we haven't always been willing to acknowledge his genius.

It's troll all the way to the core.

--
WORDS IN THE HEART CANNOT BE TAKEN --Feet of Clay

Jenny Telia

2019-12-21 16:53:49 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
What are the possible meanings of: "It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

Something I forgot to mention is that I wonder why 'Arrison threw
a gratuitous insult at Katy. What did she do to deserve that? If
it had been me or Jenny Telia it would have been understandable, as
we haven't always been willing to acknowledge his genius.

Not so much trolling, more a case of attention seeking from a female
authority figure. If HH was a public school boy (he ain't) I would have
said that he was missing matron.

Peter Moylan

2019-12-21 10:50:45 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

I've always preferred the Allan Sherman version.

My grandfather’s clock was the best ever made
By the Timex company.
Just like the clock John Cameron Swayze displayed
Last night on the old TV.
Oh it works underwater so perfectly,
And it still makes a ticking sound.
Which my grandfather tried only this afternoon,
And that’s how the old man drowned.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Peter T. Daniels

2019-12-21 15:21:02 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

John Lithgow recited the whole poem, apparently without preparation,
in some sort of impromptu stage performance that was captured by the
WNYC machinery.

Post by Peter Moylan
I've always preferred the Allan Sherman version.
My grandfather’s clock was the best ever made
By the Timex company.
Just like the clock John Cameron Swayze displayed
Last night on the old TV.
Oh it works underwater so perfectly,
And it still makes a ticking sound.
Which my grandfather tried only this afternoon,
And that’s how the old man drowned.

Did you get the John Cameron Swayze reference Down There?

Spains Harden

2019-12-21 20:44:25 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

John Lithgow recited the whole poem, apparently without preparation,
in some sort of impromptu stage performance that was captured by the
WNYC machinery.

Did you get the John Cameron Swayze reference Down There?

No I didn't. Other than being "down there" relative to the clock,
we consider ourselves to be "up here"?

Peter T. Daniels

2019-12-21 22:43:21 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

John Lithgow recited the whole poem, apparently without preparation,
in some sort of impromptu stage performance that was captured by the
WNYC machinery.

I misremembered what he did -- it was "The One-Horse Shay."

Did you get the John Cameron Swayze reference Down There?

No I didn't. Other than being "down there" relative to the clock,
we consider ourselves to be "up here"?

Whom do you think I was addressing by responding to a particular posting
that was the first to quote the Swayze line?

Ross

2019-12-22 09:49:24 UTC

I wish Katy Jennison was Laura because she'd know this one.
"It stopped, short..."

never to go again

When the old man died.

John Lithgow recited the whole poem, apparently without preparation,
in some sort of impromptu stage performance that was captured by the
WNYC machinery.

I misremembered what he did -- it was "The One-Horse Shay."

"The Deacon's Masterpiece" (Oliver Wendell Holmes), a delightful
bit of verse. It's in a couple of "Popular Recitations"
anthologies I have. Has it ever been set to music?

End of the wonderful one-hoss shay--
Logic is logic, that's all I say.

Sam Plusnet

2019-12-21 18:14:40 UTC