[Link Posting] Thinner and Lighter Laptops Have Screwed Us All

[Rich]

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<URL:https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/9kmkve/thinner-and-light
er-laptops-have-screwed-us-all>

Over the last few days we've seen outcry about Apple's new MacBook Pro,
which offers an optional top-end i9 processor, and how its performance
is throttled to the point of parody as the laptop heats up over time.
Sparked by a video from YouTuber Dave Lee, who demonstrates that the
only way to get Apple's quoted performance from the MacBook Pro is by
keeping it in a refrigerator, the outcry has been brutal.
Thousands of comments on the video say things like "Wow if it cant even
maintain stock speeds that's pretty sad" and "Apple should offer a
fridge that goes with the Macbook i9," but the sobering reality is that
this practice is normal across laptops - we're just starting to see it
more often.
As our expectations have shifted for how we get work done with
computers, it's become popular to try and foist even the most demanding
workloads - like video rendering, software development, and high-end
gaming, on laptops. It's been a fun shift to be a part of, and the
things you can do with a laptop now are wild: VR on the go, or rendering
motion graphics on a train, but for day-to-day, the shift has messed
with our perception of what ?performance' means.
Desktop computers faded in popularity over the last decade, but many of
the tasks we're demanding from our laptops simply can't compete with the
raw power of a desktop in the physical constraints of their form
factors. The problem, almost always, comes back to heat: there's too
much of it, and not enough space to get rid of it.
The shift away from desktop computers and toward laptops can be blamed
on enterprises, and the ?bring your own device' movement, which was
designed to save money. Instead of needing to provide a computer on
every desk for employees, the employer could provide a laptop that can
be used on the go as well - or even require you to bring your own
hardware. At VICE Media, for example, most employees are given Apple
laptops.
The company saves money, and your desk gets a docking station, so you
feel happy knowing you can use that comfy, familiar device. But the
tradeoff is that even a high-end laptop is going to struggle to compete
with the specifications of reasonable desktop computer.
...

[RS Wood]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 03:13:39 +0000 (UTC)

Desktop computers faded in popularity over the last decade, but many of
the tasks we're demanding from our laptops simply can't compete with the
raw power of a desktop in the physical constraints of their form
factors. The problem, almost always, comes back to heat: there's too
much of it, and not enough space to get rid of it.

Hear hear! I've decided I'm too ornery a customer to consider buying
any laptop at all. I like good/real keyboards, and lots of screen real
estate, etc. Apple's laptops seem too fragile, and the competition is
heavy or incompatible with my favorite OSes.

Desktop all the way, and when I'm on the road, too bad - I'll get back
in touch later!

(my ideal laptop would have a sweet mechanical keyboard, a screen
that's taller than it is wide for documents, and have a trackball on
the side).

My Apple Powerbook G4 had one of the nicest laptop keyboards I'd ever
experienced: lovely weight, sculpted so each key was slightly concave.

http://www.usedmac.com/products/powerbook-parts/powerbook-g4-12-aluminum-parts/076-0982-powerbook-keyboard-g4-al-12867-1-133-15ghz-pre-own

It was probably rubber dome underneath, but it was truly nice to type
on. Just afterwards they invented these shitty chiclet keyboards that
were an abomination until the new Mac butterfly keyboards - currently
part of a class action lawsuit - made even those look okay in
comparison.

[Ant]

Post by RS Wood
Hear hear! I've decided I'm too ornery a customer to consider buying
any laptop at all. I like good/real keyboards, and lots of screen real
estate, etc. Apple's laptops seem too fragile, and the competition is
heavy or incompatible with my favorite OSes.
Desktop all the way, and when I'm on the road, too bad - I'll get back
in touch later!
(my ideal laptop would have a sweet mechanical keyboard, a screen
that's taller than it is wide for documents, and have a trackball on
the side).
My Apple Powerbook G4 had one of the nicest laptop keyboards I'd ever
experienced: lovely weight, sculpted so each key was slightly concave.
http://www.usedmac.com/products/powerbook-parts/powerbook-g4-12-aluminum-parts/076-0982-powerbook-keyboard-g4-al-12867-1-133-15ghz-pre-own
It was probably rubber dome underneath, but it was truly nice to type
on. Just afterwards they invented these shitty chiclet keyboards that
were an abomination until the new Mac butterfly keyboards - currently
part of a class action lawsuit - made even those look okay in
comparison.

I still have my 15" PB G4 1 GHZ from 2002. Its keyboard was OK. I prefer clicky
keyboards like Model M. I wished those existed inside (laptop/notebook)s. :(

Desktops for me too especially for gaming even though I don't play much like I
used to when I was younger.

[Batchman]

Post by Rich
<URL:https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/9kmkve/thinner-and-light
er-laptops-have-screwed-us-all>

[snip]

Post by Rich

Sparked by a video from YouTuber Dave Lee, who demonstrates that the
only way to get Apple's quoted performance from the MacBook Pro is by
keeping it in a refrigerator, the outcry has been brutal.

Recently I have become aware that some HP laptops should be reclassified as
vacuum cleaners!

https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c01657439

[p***@lycos.com]

I frigging hate those thin things.
One can get a "gaming" laptop which seems to be somewhat bulkier.
And Lenovo did a "retro" laptop - is that still in production?

[Huge]

Post by p***@lycos.com
I frigging hate those thin things.

If you're carrying a laptop about a lot, you might have a different
opinion.

[Richard Kettlewell]

Post by Huge

Post by p***@lycos.com
I frigging hate those thin things.

If you're carrying a laptop about a lot, you might have a different
opinion.

Quite. Thin laptops are excellent for practical reasons. If you need
sustained top-end CPU performance then a laptop was always a strange
choice, IMO.

[Theo]

Post by Richard Kettlewell
Quite. Thin laptops are excellent for practical reasons. If you need
sustained top-end CPU performance then a laptop was always a strange
choice, IMO.

I can agree for the wish for portability. And I think the flaw for the
author is mainly with employers who are getting rid of desktop machines in
the name of laptops, without giving those employees access to sufficient
compute when they need it.

On thin-ness I think it's the diminishing returns of the last mm or two
that's the problem, because you end up losing useful ports like HDMI and
USB-A. With the result that you need to carry around a fistful of dongles,
and makes the portability worse because there's a high probability you
don't have the right dongle when you need one.

Theo

[RS Wood]

Post by Richard Kettlewell

Post by Huge

Post by p***@lycos.com
I frigging hate those thin things.

If you're carrying a laptop about a lot, you might have a different
opinion.

Quite. Thin laptops are excellent for practical reasons. If you need
sustained top-end CPU performance then a laptop was always a strange
choice, IMO.

For me the issue with laptops has always been that's it's a package deal:
you buy at once the manufacturer's choice of keyboard, screen size, CPU,
disk space etc. Until recently I've always preferred a desktop so I can
choose the rest of the peripherals to my liking.

My only reason for being recently interested in a laptop again is that I've
been working in places where there are frequent power outages and it's nice
to work off a laptop with a decent battery life. That said, when it
actually came time to purchase a laptop I was unable to find one that met
all my various requirements and gave up. (btw the toughest one to satisfy
these days seems to be 'keyboard' - everyone has decided if Apple can give
you a shit, low-profile keyboard, they can give you a poor man's version of
the same. I'm not impressed!

[Huge]

Post by RS Wood

Post by Richard Kettlewell

Post by Huge

Post by p***@lycos.com
I frigging hate those thin things.

If you're carrying a laptop about a lot, you might have a different
opinion.

Quite. Thin laptops are excellent for practical reasons. If you need
sustained top-end CPU performance then a laptop was always a strange
choice, IMO.

you buy at once the manufacturer's choice of keyboard, screen size, CPU,
disk space etc. Until recently I've always preferred a desktop so I can
choose the rest of the peripherals to my liking.

I used to travel a lot for work (not to such exotic places as yourself,
but a lot of air miles none the less). I was already lugging a (Windows)
work laptop about and wanted one for myself, since the work one was so
locked down as to be unusable for personal use (ironically, since I was
partly responsible for that). So I wanted a small, thin laptop. I bought
a s/h Macbook Air on eBay (amusingly, at the time, the vendor expressed
dismay at how little it fetched and I note it's now worth more than I paid
for it - serves him right for having his auction end early on Wednesday
morning). I like the Air, macOS not so much and the Finder not at all,
so it forever teeters on the brink of having Linux installed on it. If
it weren't for the underlying Unix(-nearly) system, which was one of
the reasons it was on the short-list, macOS would have been history
long since.

But ... for everyday I use a Linux desktop, for the reasons you state,
among others.

Post by RS Wood
My only reason for being recently interested in a laptop again is that I've
been working in places where there are frequent power outages and it's nice
to work off a laptop with a decent battery life. That said, when it
actually came time to purchase a laptop I was unable to find one that met
all my various requirements and gave up. (btw the toughest one to satisfy
these days seems to be 'keyboard' - everyone has decided if Apple can give
you a shit, low-profile keyboard, they can give you a poor man's version of
the same. I'm not impressed!

Keyboards seem to be a religious issue and although the Apple keyboards are
nothing to write (!) home about, they don't bother me. OTOH, my wife, who
was a secretary for much of her career, loathed the Apple keyboard that came
with her iMac and I put a Dell one on it instead. I may buy her one of
these for Xmas;

https://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-professional-for-mac/

[Rich]

(btw the toughest one to satisfy these days seems to be 'keyboard' -
everyone has decided if Apple can give you a shit, low-profile
keyboard, they can give you a poor man's version of the same. I'm
not impressed!

Far too many makers (both in the laptop and cell phone markets) have
decided that the reason why Apple's devices sell (or sell for such
inflated prices) is because of something about their design (thin,
metallic, flat low profile keyboard) instead of being about the fact
that the Apple FanBoi will buy *anything* Apple turns out, good or bad,
and continue standing at the store for days for their next 'fix' from
Cupertino.

Now, the visual design does likely contribute some, but the FanBoi
effect is by far the largest contributor to Apple sales.

[Richard Kettlewell]

Post by Rich
Far too many makers (both in the laptop and cell phone markets) have
decided that the reason why Apple's devices sell (or sell for such
inflated prices) is because of something about their design (thin,
metallic, flat low profile keyboard) instead of being about the fact
that the Apple FanBoi will buy *anything* Apple turns out, good or bad,
and continue standing at the store for days for their next 'fix' from
Cupertino.
Now, the visual design does likely contribute some, but the FanBoi
effect is by far the largest contributor to Apple sales.

Citation needed for ‘largest contributor’. Brand loyalty doubtless plays
some part (something that’s hardly unique to Apple) but it’s bad mental
modelling to assume that when someone buys something you don’t
personally want, they’re doing it for stupid reasons.

[Huge]

Post by Richard Kettlewell

Post by Rich
Far too many makers (both in the laptop and cell phone markets) have
decided that the reason why Apple's devices sell (or sell for such
inflated prices) is because of something about their design (thin,
metallic, flat low profile keyboard) instead of being about the fact
that the Apple FanBoi will buy *anything* Apple turns out, good or bad,
and continue standing at the store for days for their next 'fix' from
Cupertino.
Now, the visual design does likely contribute some, but the FanBoi
effect is by far the largest contributor to Apple sales.

Citation needed for ‘largest contributor’. Brand loyalty doubtless plays
some part (something that’s hardly unique to Apple) but it’s bad mental
modelling to assume that when someone buys something you don’t
personally want, they’re doing it for stupid reasons.

*applause*

[Rich]

Post by Huge

Post by Rich
Far too many makers (both in the laptop and cell phone markets) have
decided that the reason why Apple's devices sell (or sell for such
inflated prices) is because of something about their design (thin,
metallic, flat low profile keyboard) instead of being about the fact
that the Apple FanBoi will buy *anything* Apple turns out, good or bad,
and continue standing at the store for days for their next 'fix' from
Cupertino.
Now, the visual design does likely contribute some, but the FanBoi
effect is by far the largest contributor to Apple sales.

Citation needed for ?largest contributor?. Brand loyalty doubtless plays
some part (something that?s hardly unique to Apple) but it?s bad mental
modelling to assume that when someone buys something you don?t
personally want, they?re doing it for stupid reasons.

*applause*

See Message-ID: <pno4rv$1om$***@dont-email.me>

[Huge]

Post by Huge

Post by Rich
Far too many makers (both in the laptop and cell phone markets) have
decided that the reason why Apple's devices sell (or sell for such
inflated prices) is because of something about their design (thin,
metallic, flat low profile keyboard) instead of being about the fact
that the Apple FanBoi will buy *anything* Apple turns out, good or bad,
and continue standing at the store for days for their next 'fix' from
Cupertino.
Now, the visual design does likely contribute some, but the FanBoi
effect is by far the largest contributor to Apple sales.

Citation needed for ?largest contributor?. Brand loyalty doubtless plays
some part (something that?s hardly unique to Apple) but it?s bad mental
modelling to assume that when someone buys something you don?t
personally want, they?re doing it for stupid reasons.

*applause*

I have. You're no better than the fanbois you castigate.

[Rich]

Post by Huge

Post by Huge

Post by Rich
Far too many makers (both in the laptop and cell phone markets) have
decided that the reason why Apple's devices sell (or sell for such
inflated prices) is because of something about their design (thin,
metallic, flat low profile keyboard) instead of being about the fact
that the Apple FanBoi will buy *anything* Apple turns out, good or bad,
and continue standing at the store for days for their next 'fix' from
Cupertino.
Now, the visual design does likely contribute some, but the FanBoi
effect is by far the largest contributor to Apple sales.

Citation needed for ?largest contributor?. Brand loyalty doubtless plays
some part (something that?s hardly unique to Apple) but it?s bad mental
modelling to assume that when someone buys something you don?t
personally want, they?re doing it for stupid reasons.

*applause*

I have. You're no better than the fanbois you castigate.

Well, if you applaud a request for citations, then reject the citations
as "no better than the fanbois" then you are simply being your usual
arse around here.

[Huge]

Post by Rich

Post by Huge

Post by Huge

Post by Rich
Far too many makers (both in the laptop and cell phone markets) have
decided that the reason why Apple's devices sell (or sell for such
inflated prices) is because of something about their design (thin,
metallic, flat low profile keyboard) instead of being about the fact
that the Apple FanBoi will buy *anything* Apple turns out, good or bad,
and continue standing at the store for days for their next 'fix' from
Cupertino.
Now, the visual design does likely contribute some, but the FanBoi
effect is by far the largest contributor to Apple sales.

Citation needed for ?largest contributor?. Brand loyalty doubtless plays
some part (something that?s hardly unique to Apple) but it?s bad mental
modelling to assume that when someone buys something you don?t
personally want, they?re doing it for stupid reasons.

*applause*

I have. You're no better than the fanbois you castigate.

Well, if you applaud a request for citations, then reject the citations
as "no better than the fanbois" then you are simply being your usual
arse around here.

'ad hominem' as well as bigotry. Why on Earth should anyone pay attention to
a single syllable you utter?

[Rich]

Post by Huge

Post by Rich

Post by Huge

Post by Huge

Post by Rich
Far too many makers (both in the laptop and cell phone markets) have
decided that the reason why Apple's devices sell (or sell for such
inflated prices) is because of something about their design (thin,
metallic, flat low profile keyboard) instead of being about the fact
that the Apple FanBoi will buy *anything* Apple turns out, good or bad,
and continue standing at the store for days for their next 'fix' from
Cupertino.
Now, the visual design does likely contribute some, but the FanBoi
effect is by far the largest contributor to Apple sales.

Citation needed for ?largest contributor?. Brand loyalty doubtless plays
some part (something that?s hardly unique to Apple) but it?s bad mental
modelling to assume that when someone buys something you don?t
personally want, they?re doing it for stupid reasons.

*applause*

I have. You're no better than the fanbois you castigate.

Well, if you applaud a request for citations, then reject the citations
as "no better than the fanbois" then you are simply being your usual
arse around here.

'ad hominem' as well as bigotry. Why on Earth should anyone pay attention to
a single syllable you utter?

Plonk.

Welcome to the killfile. You've been here before for being your usual
arse.

Now you'll stay here for good.

[Sn!pe]

Post by Huge

Post by Huge

Post by Rich
Far too many makers (both in the laptop and cell phone markets) have
decided that the reason why Apple's devices sell (or sell for such
inflated prices) is because of something about their design (thin,
metallic, flat low profile keyboard) instead of being about the fact
that the Apple FanBoi will buy *anything* Apple turns out, good or bad,
and continue standing at the store for days for their next 'fix' from
Cupertino.
Now, the visual design does likely contribute some, but the FanBoi
effect is by far the largest contributor to Apple sales.

Citation needed for ?largest contributor?. Brand loyalty doubtless plays
some part (something that?s hardly unique to Apple) but it?s bad mental
modelling to assume that when someone buys something you don?t
personally want, they?re doing it for stupid reasons.

*applause*

I have. You're no better than the fanbois you castigate.

Declaration of Interest: Some might call me a FanBoi.

AFAIAC the best thing about Apple kit is that it is designed
as a complete ecosystem that aims to interoperate seamlessly;
in the argot: "It just works." There are regular, reliable
updates to be had and support continues for a reasonable time,
generally years. The quality of the hardware is such that it
will most likely still be working for a few more years after
the support runs out. Also it's pretty.

OK, Apple kit may be costly, but good things usually are.

IMO one of the reasons that "hands-on" types don't like Apple
kit is that the opportunities to get the spanners out are few
and in any case that is generally futile. Let it "just work"
and stop trying to know better than the Sainted iSteve and his
minions.

Here endeth the litany.

[Eli the Bearded]

Post by Sn!pe
AFAIAC the best thing about Apple kit is that it is designed
as a complete ecosystem that aims to interoperate seamlessly;
in the argot: "It just works." There are regular, reliable
updates to be had and support continues for a reasonable time,
generally years. The quality of the hardware is such that it
will most likely still be working for a few more years after
the support runs out.

It just works if you are doing the things you are expected to do. This
thread started with people doing intense CPU-heavy tasks and finding the
hardware not keeping up. What are the Apple options that not laptops?
Kinda limited what I can see. I don't think there's a single current
model with a CD / DVD / BR drive. (And none on the laptops either.)
All but the Mac Pro and Mac Minis are built around monitors, so you
can't separate the display options from the compute options. And none of
them have space to add even simple peripherals internally, like say a
shiny disk spinner, let alone additional hard drives.

And things that once worked with Apple later stop working with just as
much regularity as that happens on Linux. (It seems whenever JWZ posts
a "Dear Lazyweb" about Apple software it's because he was doing
something and then found it stopped working. A lot of the lazywebs are
about online services, though. https://www.jwz.org/blog/tag/lazyweb/ )

Post by Sn!pe
Also it's pretty.
OK, Apple kit may be costly, but good things usually are.

That's true to an extent. I'm impressed with how the keyboard top-row
screen thing looks on my wife's computer, but I'm not impressed (and
somewhat revulsed actually) about how it is to use. Because I'm a guy
who dreams in vi keybindings and wants a real fucking escape key damnit.

I've used a Macbook for work, and I dislike the trackpad immensely. It
feels awful to my fingers. I dislike the keyboard choices, home/end/ins
are keys I use regularly. Command and control are switched from where
I'd expect them. My wifi printer works just fine with Linux and Mac, but
my label printer needs a USB-C adapter because that's all the Mac has.

Post by Sn!pe
IMO one of the reasons that "hands-on" types don't like Apple
kit is that the opportunities to get the spanners out are few
and in any case that is generally futile. Let it "just work"
and stop trying to know better than the Sainted iSteve and his
minions.

I think that goes hand-in-hand with wanting to do the things that Apple
does well or doing things that Apple doesn't try to do.

Elijah
------
carried a USB mouse and a USB-C adapter when work forced an Apple on him

[Rich]

Post by Rich
Far too many makers (both in the laptop and cell phone markets) have
decided that the reason why Apple's devices sell (or sell for such
inflated prices) is because of something about their design (thin,
metallic, flat low profile keyboard) instead of being about the fact
that the Apple FanBoi will buy *anything* Apple turns out, good or bad,
and continue standing at the store for days for their next 'fix' from
Cupertino.
Now, the visual design does likely contribute some, but the FanBoi
effect is by far the largest contributor to Apple sales.

Citation needed for ?largest contributor?.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marketshare/2011/11/27/is-brand-loyalty-the-core-to-apples-success-2/

But why is there such a huge loyalty towards Apple?

Well, it's mainly because of the late, great Steve Jobs. Apple
is Apple because they're essentially thinking of Steve.

And when you think about how incredibly passionate Steve was about
Apple products, ensuring they were of the highest quality and
cutting-edge design, you can understand why people are willing to be
lenient.

By creating an emotional connection with its customers, Apple has
done the near impossible -- it has acquired a loyal following.
Brand loyalty has played a huge part in its global success.
There's no doubt about that.

https://blog.bynder.com/en/the-worlds-most-valuable-brand-apples-secret-to-success

When laid bare, Apple phones are not that distinct from the rival
Samsung gadget, which accounts as to why the two companies are
always in one tiff or another. However, Apple can price their
technology more than 2x what their competitors charge and not even
break a sweat. Why? Because Apple has built one of the most
hardcore fan bases ever, one that will gladly pay a premium because
of the perceived value attached to Apple products.

[Richard Kettlewell]

Post by Rich

Post by Rich
Far too many makers (both in the laptop and cell phone markets) have
decided that the reason why Apple's devices sell (or sell for such
inflated prices) is because of something about their design (thin,
metallic, flat low profile keyboard) instead of being about the fact
that the Apple FanBoi will buy *anything* Apple turns out, good or bad,
and continue standing at the store for days for their next 'fix' from
Cupertino.
Now, the visual design does likely contribute some, but the FanBoi
effect is by far the largest contributor to Apple sales.

Citation needed for ?largest contributor?.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marketshare/2011/11/27/is-brand-loyalty-the-core-to-apples-success-2/

There doesn’t seem to be any actual evidence in that article, just a
marketing consultant who thinks that Apple’s marketing has inspired
brand loyalty (“by creating an emotional connection with its
customers”).

As I said, brand loyalty is probably involved, but there’s no evidence
offered that it’s the largest factor.

Post by Rich
https://blog.bynder.com/en/the-worlds-most-valuable-brand-apples-secret-to-success
When laid bare, Apple phones are not that distinct from the rival
Samsung gadget, which accounts as to why the two companies are
always in one tiff or another. However, Apple can price their
technology more than 2x what their competitors charge and not even
break a sweat. Why? Because Apple has built one of the most
hardcore fan bases ever, one that will gladly pay a premium because
of the perceived value attached to Apple products.

That seems to be largely the same argument (I think I spotted at least
one identical sentence), from largely the same kind of person, and
similarly free of concrete evidence.

As a tangential point, evidence that Apple charge 2x what their
competitors charge would mean specifying what the comparable products
were and what their prices were. After a quick look at Apple’s and
Samsung’s websites it doesn’t really seem to be true at the moment,
though I didn’t get into comparing specs.

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Post by p***@lycos.com
I frigging hate those thin things.

Agreed. Of course you could always mount an LCD monitor, hinged
keyboard, and trackball on a desktop PC case with a handle and
call it a next-generation luggable. :)

Post by p***@lycos.com
One can get a "gaming" laptop which seems to be somewhat bulkier.
And Lenovo did a "retro" laptop - is that still in production?

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-t-series/ThinkPad-25/p/22TP2TTTP25