Dabridgecourt of Longdon descent?

[Thomas Dudley-Bonnett]

Hello

Is there any agreed or assumed descent for the Dabridgecourt family? I descend from Thomas Dabridgecourt, Esq of Longdon Hall, Warwickshire c1531-1602.

Looking at the Visitation pedigrees of Warwickshire, Nottinghamshire and Hampshire seem to all corroborate the same line of descent more or less from Sir Sanchet Dabridgecourt KG and then list his father as Sir Eustace Dabridgecourt who was married to a daughter of John Wake.
I find this confusing as I've seen a lot of people give Sanchet and Eustace as the same person and give Sanchet's father as a 'Sir Nicholas D'Auberchicourt, Lord of Bugnicourt and Abrichecourt, County of Hainaut and Ostrevant.
Then many give Sir John Dabridgecourt KG who died 1415 as a son of Nicholas D'Auberchicourt of Borchain and Enghien, elder brother of Sir Sanchet. Who is incorrect? Visitation or Independent researchers or both?

The pedigree I have, tracing back from Thomas is this -
If anyone has more precise information, I welcome corrections to this line as I'm confused by the contradicting information online.

Thomas Dabridgecourt of Longdon Hall, Warwickshire. Esquire.
c1531-1602
Married Alice Greswold, daughter of John Greswold, Esq.
Son of -
John Dabridgecourt of Solihull. Esquire.
c1484-1543
Married Elizabeth Wigston, daughter of Roger Wigston, Esq.
Son of-
Thomas Dabridgecourt of Strathfieldsaye. Esquire.
c1453-1495
Married Alice De La Mare, daughter of Sir Thomas De La Mare.
Son of-
Thomas Dabridgecourt of Strathfieldsaye. Esquire.
c1428-1466
Married Beatrice Beckington, Daughter or kin of Godwin Beckington?
Son of-
John Dabridgecourt of Strathfieldsaye. Esquire.
c1407-1432
Married Agnes Beckingham, daughter of William Beckingham.
Son of-
Sir John Dabridgecourt KG of Markeaton.
c1455-1415
Married Maud de Grey? Some state Bromhall?
Son of-
Nicholas D'Auberchicourt of Berchain and Enghien. Elder brother to Sanchet/Eustache Dabrichecourt KG?

[wjhonson]

I think one question is *how* did the Daubridgecourt family get their hands on Stratfield-Say ?

I have that it was through this last Nicholas' marriage to Elizabeth du Roeulx who was the heiress of that place.

https://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=wjhonson&id=I161709&style=TEXT

By the way, some of the specific years you have in your above, are not supported by any credible sources.

[Thomas Dudley-Bonnett]

Post by wjhonson
I think one question is *how* did the Daubridgecourt family get their hands on Stratfield-Say ?
I have that it was through this last Nicholas' marriage to Elizabeth du Roeulx who was the heiress of that place.
https://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=wjhonson&id=I161709&style=TEXT
By the way, some of the specific years you have in your above, are not supported by any credible sources.

I would have assumed they acquired it from the marriage of Sir Nicholas Dabridgecourt to Elizabeth Say a daughter of an unknown Lord Say of Stratfield which is corroborated in the visitations of Nottinghamshire and Hampshire.

My dates for John Dabridgecourt of Solihull are rough as people give him as around 60/70 years of age and born c1450 when Thomas is born, which I find unlikely and doesn't fit with pedigree generations, considering Thomas of Longdon Hall would be born roughly 1530 given the generations his 3 daughters are marrying at.

From John of Solihull and back is from another tree which apparently quotes directly from IPMs back to Sir John KG who died 1415. Although going by this pedigree it completely misses out Sir Nicholas Dabridgecourt and Elizabeth Say.

In visitation pedigrees from Nottingham/Warwickshire/Hampshire, Thomas Dabridgecourt, Esq who marries Alice de la Mare is given as a son of Sir Nicholas Dabridgecourt and Elizabeth Say daughter of Lord Say of Stratfield.

In the pedigree citing IPMs, Thomas who marries Alice is given as a son of Thomas Dabridgecourt, Esq of Stratfield 1428-1466 and Beatrice Beckington. Both Nicholas and the Thomas who marries Beatrice are given as a son of John Dabridgecourt, Esq of Stratfield 1407-1432 who was son of Sir John KG who died 1415. So the discrepancy appears to be whether this Sir Nicholas existed or have people gotten 2 lines mixed up?

[p***@gmail.com]

From the History of Market Harborough: with that Portion of the hundred of ... by John Harwood Hill

THomas de Say = Isabel

Sybil de Say = unknown

Eliza (de Say) = Nicholas Dabridgecourt d 1400
See Ipm 1045 file 1000 year 1404
It says by the grant of Nicholas Carew & others.
Heir is John b abt 1375

John Dabridgecourt d 1418 = Joan Lynde
See Ipm 726 year 1417 file 700
Heir is John b abt 1416

John Dabridgecourt d 1432 = Agnes d/o WM Beckingham
She marries secondly WM Brocas of Beaupaire

Thomas Dabridgecourt d1466 = Beatrice a relative of Bp Thomas de Bekingham

Thomas Dabridgecourt d 1485
(See Ipm 95 Year 1485 -7 2 Hy VII)
= Alice de la Mare d/o Thomas de la Mare & Elizabeth Fynderne of Aldermaston, Berks

Their son & heir on the Ipm is Bernard Dabridgecourt b1475 who dsp’d so the heir became Thomas Dabridgecourt d 1539 = Dorothy d/o George Putnam of Sheffield, Hants.
And a John Dabridgecourt d 1543 = Eliza Wigston

There is also a Dabridgecourt pedigree in the Topographer & Genealogist, vol 1 you can view .

FYI I also have that John de la Mare married Joan Dabridgecourt, and they provided the de la Mare heiress Elizabeth who marries George Forster d 1533 of Harpsden, Oxford.

[John Higgins]

Post by p***@gmail.com
From the History of Market Harborough: with that Portion of the hundred of ... by John Harwood Hill
THomas de Say = Isabel
Sybil de Say = unknown
Eliza (de Say) = Nicholas Dabridgecourt d 1400
See Ipm 1045 file 1000 year 1404
It says by the grant of Nicholas Carew & others.
Heir is John b abt 1375
John Dabridgecourt d 1418 = Joan Lynde
See Ipm 726 year 1417 file 700
Heir is John b abt 1416
John Dabridgecourt d 1432 = Agnes d/o WM Beckingham
She marries secondly WM Brocas of Beaupaire
Thomas Dabridgecourt d1466 = Beatrice a relative of Bp Thomas de Bekingham
Thomas Dabridgecourt d 1485
(See Ipm 95 Year 1485 -7 2 Hy VII)
= Alice de la Mare d/o Thomas de la Mare & Elizabeth Fynderne of Aldermaston, Berks
Their son & heir on the Ipm is Bernard Dabridgecourt b1475 who dsp’d so the heir became Thomas Dabridgecourt d 1539 = Dorothy d/o George Putnam of Sheffield, Hants.
And a John Dabridgecourt d 1543 = Eliza Wigston
There is also a Dabridgecourt pedigree in the Topographer & Genealogist, vol 1 you can view .
FYI I also have that John de la Mare married Joan Dabridgecourt, and they provided the de la Mare heiress Elizabeth who marries George Forster d 1533 of Harpsden, Oxford.

Are you sure you've cited the right book above? I've looked through a few digital copies of Hill's History of Market Harborough, and I can't find the information you've given above. Can you cite a specific page number?

[Thomas Dudley-Bonnett]

Post by p***@gmail.com
From the History of Market Harborough: with that Portion of the hundred of ... by John Harwood Hill
THomas de Say = Isabel
Sybil de Say = unknown
Eliza (de Say) = Nicholas Dabridgecourt d 1400
See Ipm 1045 file 1000 year 1404
It says by the grant of Nicholas Carew & others.
Heir is John b abt 1375
John Dabridgecourt d 1418 = Joan Lynde
See Ipm 726 year 1417 file 700
Heir is John b abt 1416
John Dabridgecourt d 1432 = Agnes d/o WM Beckingham
She marries secondly WM Brocas of Beaupaire
Thomas Dabridgecourt d1466 = Beatrice a relative of Bp Thomas de Bekingham
Thomas Dabridgecourt d 1485
(See Ipm 95 Year 1485 -7 2 Hy VII)
= Alice de la Mare d/o Thomas de la Mare & Elizabeth Fynderne of Aldermaston, Berks
Their son & heir on the Ipm is Bernard Dabridgecourt b1475 who dsp’d so the heir became Thomas Dabridgecourt d 1539 = Dorothy d/o George Putnam of Sheffield, Hants.
And a John Dabridgecourt d 1543 = Eliza Wigston
There is also a Dabridgecourt pedigree in the Topographer & Genealogist, vol 1 you can view .
FYI I also have that John de la Mare married Joan Dabridgecourt, and they provided the de la Mare heiress Elizabeth who marries George Forster d 1533 of Harpsden, Oxford.

I would be very interested to see this source.
So according to this information and more that I have seen the pedigree from Thomas Dabridgecourt, Esq of Longdon Hall, Warwickshire in the male line is thus -

Thomas Dabridgecourt of Longdon Hall, Warwickshire. c1531-1602 His 3 daughters are his heirs, One of which marries John Fulwood of Forde Hall, Warwickshire whom I descend from.

Thomas Son of -
John Dabridgecourt of Solihull, Warwickshire. c1483-1543. 3rd Son.

John Son of -
Thomas Dabridgecourt of Stratfield, Hampshire. c1453-1485 or 1495?
Marries Alice daughter of Sir Thomas De La Mare of Aldermaston.
British History noting the parish of Stratfield states that Thomas dies 1495 and that his widow Alice marries Richard Elyot.

Thomas Son of -
Thomas Dabridgecourt of Stratfield, Hampshire. c1428-1466.
He is given as aged 4 years old when his father dies in 1431.
Married Beatrice Beckington c1453, He is granted a large portion of land and tenements by his mother Agnes at this date.

Thomas son of -
John Dabridgecourt of Stratfield, Hampshire. c1407-1431.
Came of age in 1428 and died in 1431.
Married Agnes Beckingham who remained Lady of Stratfield Manor until 1470 and whose heir was her grandson Thomas Dabridgecourt 1453-1495.

John Son of -
Sir John Dabridgecourt of Stratfield, Hampshire. c1375-1418.
Aged 26 at his fathers death in 1400 via Visitation and IPM?
Marries Joan, daughter of Roger Lynde.
This is where I think there was confusion by myself and others and have mistaken this Sir John for his uncle Sir John Dabridgecourt of Markeaton, Derbyshire who dies 1415.

John Son of -
Sir Nicholas Dabrichecourt of Nottingham and Stratfield. c1350?-1400
Originally born in the County of Hainault? It seems he was the first Dabrichecourt to find home at the court of Edward III.
Older Brother of Sir John of Markeaton.
Married c1370 Elizabeth, heir of Sibylla Say who was daughter and heir of Sir Thomas Say of Stratfield. Its not known who Elizabeth's father was. Either her mother or her as her first husband married a Thomas St Leger of Stratfield.

Nicholas Son of -
Sir Nicholas Dabrichecourt of Enghien and Valenciennes.
Married Elizabeth Roeulx or Roet? Daughter of Pain de Roet of Hainault.
Was still living in 1358.

Nicholas Son of -
Sir Nicholas D'Auberchicourt of Bugnicourt and Auberchicourt.
One of the escorts of Queen Isabella or in the retinue of Phillipa of Hainault in 1327.

[Thomas Dudley-Bonnett]

Post by p***@gmail.com
From the History of Market Harborough: with that Portion of the hundred of ... by John Harwood Hill
THomas de Say = Isabel
Sybil de Say = unknown
Eliza (de Say) = Nicholas Dabridgecourt d 1400
See Ipm 1045 file 1000 year 1404
It says by the grant of Nicholas Carew & others.
Heir is John b abt 1375
John Dabridgecourt d 1418 = Joan Lynde
See Ipm 726 year 1417 file 700
Heir is John b abt 1416
John Dabridgecourt d 1432 = Agnes d/o WM Beckingham
She marries secondly WM Brocas of Beaupaire
Thomas Dabridgecourt d1466 = Beatrice a relative of Bp Thomas de Bekingham
Thomas Dabridgecourt d 1485
(See Ipm 95 Year 1485 -7 2 Hy VII)
= Alice de la Mare d/o Thomas de la Mare & Elizabeth Fynderne of Aldermaston, Berks
Their son & heir on the Ipm is Bernard Dabridgecourt b1475 who dsp’d so the heir became Thomas Dabridgecourt d 1539 = Dorothy d/o George Putnam of Sheffield, Hants.
And a John Dabridgecourt d 1543 = Eliza Wigston
There is also a Dabridgecourt pedigree in the Topographer & Genealogist, vol 1 you can view .
FYI I also have that John de la Mare married Joan Dabridgecourt, and they provided the de la Mare heiress Elizabeth who marries George Forster d 1533 of Harpsden, Oxford.

I would be very interested to see this source.
So according to this information and more that I have seen the pedigree from Thomas Dabridgecourt, Esq of Longdon Hall, Warwickshire in the male line is thus -

Thomas Dabridgecourt of Longdon Hall, Warwickshire. c1531-1602 His 3 daughters are his heirs, One of which marries John Fulwood of Forde Hall, Warwickshire whom I descend from.

Thomas Son of -
John Dabridgecourt of Solihull, Warwickshire. c1483-1543. 3rd Son.

John Son of -
Thomas Dabridgecourt of Stratfield, Hampshire. c1453-1485 or 1495?
Marries Alice daughter of Sir Thomas De La Mare of Aldermaston.
British History noting the parish of Stratfield states that Thomas dies 1495 and that his widow Alice marries Richard Elyot.

Thomas Son of -
Thomas Dabridgecourt of Stratfield, Hampshire. c1428-1466.
He is given as aged 4 years old when his father dies in 1431.
Married Beatrice Beckington c1453, He is granted a large portion of land and tenements by his mother Agnes at this date.

Thomas son of -
John Dabridgecourt of Stratfield, Hampshire. c1407-1431.
Came of age in 1428 and died in 1431.
Married Agnes Beckingham who remained Lady of Stratfield Manor until 1470 and whose heir was her grandson Thomas Dabridgecourt 1453-1495.

John Son of -
Sir John Dabridgecourt of Stratfield, Hampshire. c1375-1418.
Aged 26 at his fathers death in 1400 via Visitation and IPM?
Marries Joan, daughter of Roger Lynde.
This is where I think there was confusion by myself and others and have mistaken this Sir John for his uncle Sir John Dabridgecourt of Markeaton, Derbyshire who dies 1415.

John Son of -
Sir Nicholas Dabrichecourt of Nottingham and Stratfield. c1350?-1400
Originally born in the County of Hainault?
Older Brother of Sir John of Markeaton and nephew of Sir Sanchet Dabrichecourt KG.
Married c1370 Elizabeth, heir of Sibylla Say who was daughter and heir of Sir Thomas Say of Stratfield. Its not known who Elizabeth's father was. Either her mother or her as her first husband married a Thomas St Leger of Stratfield.

Nicholas Son of -
Sir Nicholas Dabrichecourt of Enghien and Valenciennes.
Married Elizabeth Roeulx or Roet? Daughter of Pain de Roet of Hainault.
Was still living in 1358.

Nicholas Son of -
Sir Nicholas D'Auberchicourt of Bugnicourt and Auberchicourt.
One of the escorts of Queen Isabella or in the retinue of Phillipa of Hainault in 1327.

[John Higgins]

Post by wjhonson
I think one question is *how* did the Daubridgecourt family get their hands on Stratfield-Say ?
I have that it was through this last Nicholas' marriage to Elizabeth du Roeulx who was the heiress of that place.
https://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=wjhonson&id=I161709&style=TEXT
By the way, some of the specific years you have in your above, are not supported by any credible sources.

Speaking of "not supported by any credible source", the entry for Elizabeth du Rouelx in the "Research of Will Johnson, professional genealogist" in the link cited above has no sources AT ALL. The same is true for the entries of the persons connected to her. What ARE your sources for these entries?

[p***@gmail.com]

I would like to add that in the pedigree of Brocas of Beaurepaire, it states that William Brocas married Anne d/o Thomas Bekingham, esq.,1st wife, d 1469. He also had a 2nd wife named Joan.

Katherine Brocas, sister of WM Brocas d 1456, married Robert de la Mare father or grandfather of Thomas de la Mare of Aldermaston = Elizabeth Fynderne.

The son of WM Brocas by Anne Bekingham is John Brocas who was one of the executors of the will of Thomas Dabrigecourt d 1466.

Hope this may help.

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by John Higgins

Post by wjhonson
By the way, some of the specific years you have in your above, are not supported by any credible sources.

Speaking of "not supported by any credible source", the entry for Elizabeth du Rouelx in the "Research of Will Johnson, professional genealogist" in the link cited above has no sources AT ALL. The same is true for the entries of the persons connected to her. What ARE your sources for these entries?

Does this count as a source for Elizabeth du Roeulx?

Devillers, L, (editor, 1881). Cartulaire des Comtes de Hainault. Brussels, pp. 157-8

Judy Perry

[Peter Stewart]

Post by j***@gmail.com

Post by John Higgins

Post by wjhonson
By the way, some of the specific years you have in your above, are not supported by any credible sources.

Speaking of "not supported by any credible source", the entry for Elizabeth du Rouelx in the "Research of Will Johnson, professional genealogist" in the link cited above has no sources AT ALL. The same is true for the entries of the persons connected to her. What ARE your sources for these entries?

Does this count as a source for Elizabeth du Roeulx?
Devillers, L, (editor, 1881). Cartulaire des Comtes de Hainault. Brussels, pp. 157-8

Which volume are you looking at? In vol. 1 (1881) these pages are part
of a bull of Benedict XII in which no Elisabeth is mentioned. Paon du
Roeulx's daughter Elisabeth, a nun, is named on p. 321 of the same
volume, in a charter of (Empress) Margaret II, countess of Holland,
dated 27 July 1349. She is the only Elisabeth du Roeulx listed in the
index (vol. 6 part 2).

Peter Stewart

[Judy Perry]

Yes, I believe that is the reference. I have not seen any Papal Bulls mentioning her. And in the entry you quote, she is designated the daughter of Giles called Paon of Roeulx.

But am interested in any reasonably credible D'Abricicourt geneaology (I think the family of 'Dabricicourt' had an earlier name as well, which I do not recall as I am at a public terminal waiting for a prescription to be filled).

Judy

On Saturday, May 23, 2020 at 1:37:22 AM UTC-6, ***@optusnet.com.au wrote:
<small snippage>

Post by Peter Stewart

Post by j***@gmail.com
Does this count as a source for Elizabeth du Roeulx?
Devillers, L, (editor, 1881). Cartulaire des Comtes de Hainault. Brussels, pp. 157-8

Which volume are you looking at? In vol. 1 (1881) these pages are part
of a bull of Benedict XII in which no Elisabeth is mentioned. Paon du
Roeulx's daughter Elisabeth, a nun, is named on p. 321 of the same
volume, in a charter of (Empress) Margaret II, countess of Holland,
dated 27 July 1349. She is the only Elisabeth du Roeulx listed in the
index (vol. 6 part 2).
Peter Stewart

[Vance Mead]

I can see this is an old discussion, but I did some work on this family recently for Wikitree, starting with Sir Nicholas, born about 1350, until about 1480. This is from IPMs, VCH, Common Pleas, History of Parliament, etc.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dabridgecourt-17

[Thomas Dudley-Bonnett]

Yes, I believe that is the reference. I have not seen any Papal Bulls mentioning her. And in the entry you quote, she is designated the daughter of Giles called Paon of Roeulx.
But am interested in any reasonably credible D'Abricicourt geneaology (I think the family of 'Dabricicourt' had an earlier name as well, which I do not recall as I am at a public terminal waiting for a prescription to be filled).
Judy
<small snippage>

Post by Peter Stewart

Post by j***@gmail.com
Does this count as a source for Elizabeth du Roeulx?
Devillers, L, (editor, 1881). Cartulaire des Comtes de Hainault. Brussels, pp. 157-8

Which volume are you looking at? In vol. 1 (1881) these pages are part
of a bull of Benedict XII in which no Elisabeth is mentioned. Paon du
Roeulx's daughter Elisabeth, a nun, is named on p. 321 of the same
volume, in a charter of (Empress) Margaret II, countess of Holland,
dated 27 July 1349. She is the only Elisabeth du Roeulx listed in the
index (vol. 6 part 2).
Peter Stewart

Yes, I forget where I saw it now but a French source lists that the D'Auberchicourt family were originally from Douai who came to Auberchicourt in the 1100s. In the mid to late 1200s the family split, one line stayed in Auberchicourt and another went to Bugnicourt, both lines kept the name 'D'Auberchicourt', its apparently the Bugnicourt line which the English family descends from. With Nicholas D'Auberchicourt of Bugnicourt being first mentioned by Froissart as accompanying Isabella to England in 1326. He is known as 'Of Bugnicourt' and entertained Isabella at his castle there. He received a pension from Edward III in 1331 and was involved in the Scottish wars in 1335. The line which stayed in France apparently petered out in the late 1300s when the lordships of Auberchicourt and Bugnicourt moved to the Lalaing family.
Are you also descended from this family? I'm looking for anymore information, especially on their movements in France prior on coming to England.

Wauthier or Walbold de Douai, brother of the Lord of Douai, Michel de Douai, known as d'Auberchicourt because he founded the line of lords of Auberchicourt descending from the Lords of Douai, Wauthier appears in an act of 1199. He marries Alix de Mausny (Masny) and dies in 1209. He is the father of Wauthier or Gauthier II d'Auberchicourt, who died around 1228, Lord of Estaimbourg (Another holding of this family). They were succeeded by the lords known as Auberchicourt, possessing Estaimbourg, Bernissart, Bugnicourt.

[Peter Stewart]

Post by Thomas Dudley-Bonnett

Yes, I believe that is the reference. I have not seen any Papal Bulls mentioning her. And in the entry you quote, she is designated the daughter of Giles called Paon of Roeulx.
But am interested in any reasonably credible D'Abricicourt geneaology (I think the family of 'Dabricicourt' had an earlier name as well, which I do not recall as I am at a public terminal waiting for a prescription to be filled).
Judy
<small snippage>

Post by Peter Stewart

Post by j***@gmail.com
Does this count as a source for Elizabeth du Roeulx?
Devillers, L, (editor, 1881). Cartulaire des Comtes de Hainault. Brussels, pp. 157-8

Which volume are you looking at? In vol. 1 (1881) these pages are part
of a bull of Benedict XII in which no Elisabeth is mentioned. Paon du
Roeulx's daughter Elisabeth, a nun, is named on p. 321 of the same
volume, in a charter of (Empress) Margaret II, countess of Holland,
dated 27 July 1349. She is the only Elisabeth du Roeulx listed in the
index (vol. 6 part 2).
Peter Stewart

Yes, I forget where I saw it now but a French source lists that the D'Auberchicourt family were originally from Douai who came to Auberchicourt in the 1100s. In the mid to late 1200s the family split, one line stayed in Auberchicourt and another went to Bugnicourt, both lines kept the name 'D'Auberchicourt', its apparently the Bugnicourt line which the English family descends from. With Nicholas D'Auberchicourt of Bugnicourt being first mentioned by Froissart as accompanying Isabella to England in 1326. He is known as 'Of Bugnicourt' and entertained Isabella at his castle there. He received a pension from Edward III in 1331 and was involved in the Scottish wars in 1335. The line which stayed in France apparently petered out in the late 1300s when the lordships of Auberchicourt and Bugnicourt moved to the Lalaing family.
Are you also descended from this family? I'm looking for anymore information, especially on their movements in France prior on coming to England.
Wauthier or Walbold de Douai, brother of the Lord of Douai, Michel de Douai, known as d'Auberchicourt because he founded the line of lords of Auberchicourt descending from the Lords of Douai, Wauthier appears in an act of 1199. He marries Alix de Mausny (Masny) and dies in 1209. He is the father of Wauthier or Gauthier II d'Auberchicourt, who died around 1228, Lord of Estaimbourg (Another holding of this family). They were succeeded by the lords known as Auberchicourt, possessing Estaimbourg, Bernissart, Bugnicourt.

As far as I'm aware there is no evidence that Waltold (not Walbold) of
Auberchicourt was a brother of Michel of Douai - this is an old
assertion that I have never seen proved.

According to Pierre Feuchère, _Les vieilles familles chevaleresques du
nord de la France_, Ière série. no. 1, Auberchicourt (Fontenay-le-Comte,
1945) there were two genealogically separate families known by the same
toponym: the first occurring from the late-12th century extinct in all
agnatic branches by the beginning of the 15th century, and the second
appearing in the early 13th century that was ancestral to the English
Dabridgecourts.

Peter Stewart

[Thomas Dudley-Bonnett]

Post by Peter Stewart

Post by Thomas Dudley-Bonnett

Yes, I believe that is the reference. I have not seen any Papal Bulls mentioning her. And in the entry you quote, she is designated the daughter of Giles called Paon of Roeulx.
But am interested in any reasonably credible D'Abricicourt geneaology (I think the family of 'Dabricicourt' had an earlier name as well, which I do not recall as I am at a public terminal waiting for a prescription to be filled).
Judy
<small snippage>

Post by Peter Stewart

Post by j***@gmail.com
Does this count as a source for Elizabeth du Roeulx?
Devillers, L, (editor, 1881). Cartulaire des Comtes de Hainault. Brussels, pp. 157-8

Which volume are you looking at? In vol. 1 (1881) these pages are part
of a bull of Benedict XII in which no Elisabeth is mentioned. Paon du
Roeulx's daughter Elisabeth, a nun, is named on p. 321 of the same
volume, in a charter of (Empress) Margaret II, countess of Holland,
dated 27 July 1349. She is the only Elisabeth du Roeulx listed in the
index (vol. 6 part 2).
Peter Stewart

Yes, I forget where I saw it now but a French source lists that the D'Auberchicourt family were originally from Douai who came to Auberchicourt in the 1100s. In the mid to late 1200s the family split, one line stayed in Auberchicourt and another went to Bugnicourt, both lines kept the name 'D'Auberchicourt', its apparently the Bugnicourt line which the English family descends from. With Nicholas D'Auberchicourt of Bugnicourt being first mentioned by Froissart as accompanying Isabella to England in 1326. He is known as 'Of Bugnicourt' and entertained Isabella at his castle there. He received a pension from Edward III in 1331 and was involved in the Scottish wars in 1335. The line which stayed in France apparently petered out in the late 1300s when the lordships of Auberchicourt and Bugnicourt moved to the Lalaing family.
Are you also descended from this family? I'm looking for anymore information, especially on their movements in France prior on coming to England.
Wauthier or Walbold de Douai, brother of the Lord of Douai, Michel de Douai, known as d'Auberchicourt because he founded the line of lords of Auberchicourt descending from the Lords of Douai, Wauthier appears in an act of 1199. He marries Alix de Mausny (Masny) and dies in 1209. He is the father of Wauthier or Gauthier II d'Auberchicourt, who died around 1228, Lord of Estaimbourg (Another holding of this family). They were succeeded by the lords known as Auberchicourt, possessing Estaimbourg, Bernissart, Bugnicourt.

As far as I'm aware there is no evidence that Waltold (not Walbold) of
Auberchicourt was a brother of Michel of Douai - this is an old
assertion that I have never seen proved.
According to Pierre Feuchère, _Les vieilles familles chevaleresques du
nord de la France_, Ière série. no. 1, Auberchicourt (Fontenay-le-Comte,
1945) there were two genealogically separate families known by the same
toponym: the first occurring from the late-12th century extinct in all
agnatic branches by the beginning of the 15th century, and the second
appearing in the early 13th century that was ancestral to the English
Dabridgecourts.
Peter Stewart
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

From what I can make out the ''Split'' of family was later and involving the latter D'Auberchicourt family.
First was the ''D'Auberchicourt'' family whose line is that of Wauthier/Waltold de Douai, who him and his descendants became 'D'Auberchicourt' then they were succeeded by another family in the first part of the 1200s of the same name who were unrelated and its this family that the English branch descends from.
Then in the mid or late 1200s there appears to have been a spit in this family, with (I'm assuming) the elder son inheriting the lordship of Auberchicourt and Estaimbourg and this is the line which stays in france and sides with the Kingdom of France in the hundred years war, Baldwin D'Auberchicourt of Estaimbourg appears to be of this line. This line eventually fades out, with the lose of Auberchicourt, they appear to have held onto Estaimbourg and then lost that later. Jean d'Auberchicourt of Estaimbourg who was knighted in 1379 and François d'Auberchicourt of Rochefort were likely of this line and the last notable members.
The younger son then inheriting Bugnicourt, and this line sides with England and eventually settles there. I'm not exactly sure when they lost Bugnicourt to the Lalaings, I think it was the 1370s. Sir Collard/Nicholas D'Auberchicourt c1345-1400 is given as 'Of Bugnicourt' and apparently his son John D'Auberchicourt c1375-1417 was also born at Bugnicourt, Although I have a feeling he was perhaps born at StratfieldSaye.

The first time Froissart seems mention the family is of Nicholas D'Auberchicourt of Bugnicourt in 1326 on his reception of Queen Isabella. I wonder if Nicholas is a son or grandson of the Baldwin D'Auberchicourt who was killed at the battle of Courtrai in 1302.

[Peter Stewart]

Post by Thomas Dudley-Bonnett

Post by Peter Stewart

Post by Thomas Dudley-Bonnett

Yes, I believe that is the reference. I have not seen any Papal Bulls mentioning her. And in the entry you quote, she is designated the daughter of Giles called Paon of Roeulx.
But am interested in any reasonably credible D'Abricicourt geneaology (I think the family of 'Dabricicourt' had an earlier name as well, which I do not recall as I am at a public terminal waiting for a prescription to be filled).
Judy
<small snippage>

Post by Peter Stewart

Post by j***@gmail.com
Does this count as a source for Elizabeth du Roeulx?
Devillers, L, (editor, 1881). Cartulaire des Comtes de Hainault. Brussels, pp. 157-8

Which volume are you looking at? In vol. 1 (1881) these pages are part
of a bull of Benedict XII in which no Elisabeth is mentioned. Paon du
Roeulx's daughter Elisabeth, a nun, is named on p. 321 of the same
volume, in a charter of (Empress) Margaret II, countess of Holland,
dated 27 July 1349. She is the only Elisabeth du Roeulx listed in the
index (vol. 6 part 2).
Peter Stewart

Yes, I forget where I saw it now but a French source lists that the D'Auberchicourt family were originally from Douai who came to Auberchicourt in the 1100s. In the mid to late 1200s the family split, one line stayed in Auberchicourt and another went to Bugnicourt, both lines kept the name 'D'Auberchicourt', its apparently the Bugnicourt line which the English family descends from. With Nicholas D'Auberchicourt of Bugnicourt being first mentioned by Froissart as accompanying Isabella to England in 1326. He is known as 'Of Bugnicourt' and entertained Isabella at his castle there. He received a pension from Edward III in 1331 and was involved in the Scottish wars in 1335. The line which stayed in France apparently petered out in the late 1300s when the lordships of Auberchicourt and Bugnicourt moved to the Lalaing family.
Are you also descended from this family? I'm looking for anymore information, especially on their movements in France prior on coming to England.
Wauthier or Walbold de Douai, brother of the Lord of Douai, Michel de Douai, known as d'Auberchicourt because he founded the line of lords of Auberchicourt descending from the Lords of Douai, Wauthier appears in an act of 1199. He marries Alix de Mausny (Masny) and dies in 1209. He is the father of Wauthier or Gauthier II d'Auberchicourt, who died around 1228, Lord of Estaimbourg (Another holding of this family). They were succeeded by the lords known as Auberchicourt, possessing Estaimbourg, Bernissart, Bugnicourt.

As far as I'm aware there is no evidence that Waltold (not Walbold) of
Auberchicourt was a brother of Michel of Douai - this is an old
assertion that I have never seen proved.
According to Pierre Feuchère, _Les vieilles familles chevaleresques du
nord de la France_, Ière série. no. 1, Auberchicourt (Fontenay-le-Comte,
1945) there were two genealogically separate families known by the same
toponym: the first occurring from the late-12th century extinct in all
agnatic branches by the beginning of the 15th century, and the second
appearing in the early 13th century that was ancestral to the English
Dabridgecourts.
Peter Stewart
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

From what I can make out the ''Split'' of family was later and involving the latter D'Auberchicourt family.
First was the ''D'Auberchicourt'' family whose line is that of Wauthier/Waltold de Douai, who him and his descendants became 'D'Auberchicourt' then they were succeeded by another family in the first part of the 1200s of the same name who were unrelated and its this family that the English branch descends from.
Then in the mid or late 1200s there appears to have been a spit in this family, with (I'm assuming) the elder son inheriting the lordship of Auberchicourt and Estaimbourg and this is the line which stays in france and sides with the Kingdom of France in the hundred years war, Baldwin D'Auberchicourt of Estaimbourg appears to be of this line. This line eventually fades out, with the lose of Auberchicourt, they appear to have held onto Estaimbourg and then lost that later. Jean d'Auberchicourt of Estaimbourg who was knighted in 1379 and François d'Auberchicourt of Rochefort were likely of this line and the last notable members.
The younger son then inheriting Bugnicourt, and this line sides with England and eventually settles there. I'm not exactly sure when they lost Bugnicourt to the Lalaings, I think it was the 1370s. Sir Collard/Nicholas D'Auberchicourt c1345-1400 is given as 'Of Bugnicourt' and apparently his son John D'Auberchicourt c1375-1417 was also born at Bugnicourt, Although I have a feeling he was perhaps born at StratfieldSaye.
The first time Froissart seems mention the family is of Nicholas D'Auberchicourt of Bugnicourt in 1326 on his reception of Queen Isabella. I wonder if Nicholas is a son or grandson of the Baldwin D'Auberchicourt who was killed at the battle of Courtrai in 1302.

As far as the evidence goes, there appear to have been two different
(but unfortunately indistinct) families called d'Auberchicourt - the
first of these was a branch of the castallans of Douai and the second
apparently headed by Waltold (aka Walbold), who has been arbitrarily
attached as a brother of Michael of Douai with no proof of this
relationship.

The English Dabridgecourts descended from the second family, not from a
cadet or "split" line of the first.

There are many examples at this feudal level of different families using
the same toponyms - presumably in most cases one meaning "of X" as
hereditary lords of that place and the other meaning "from X" as
originating from there and likely descending from a vassal of the first
family.

Genealogists using "name's-the-same = same family" methodology (or lack
of it) and/or trying to link every random individual to the best-known
lineage of a particular surname have caused endless confusion.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

[wjhonson]

Not sure how you got this Isabel as the daughter of the famous Payne de Roet, but she was not.

His daughter Isabel (Elizabeth) became a nun. She never married.

[wjhonson]

https://books.google.com/books?id=CBwIAAAAQAAJ&dq=sir%20nicholas%20daubridgecourt&pg=PA197#v=onepage&q=sir%20nicholas%20daubridgecourt&f=false

[Thomas Dudley-Bonnett]

I only wrote Paon de Roet as the tree you linked previously had an Elizabeth de Roeulx daughter of Giles as marrying Nicholas and I assumed it was the same as both families were from Hainaut and Paon was possibly named Giles as well. An honest quick mistake but the dates in that tree are off though so I should have noticed.