Men suddenly realise what equal pay means.

[Ian]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/4306466.stm

It means the man out on the street catching pneumonia, has to take a
pay cut, so the women in the nice warm clean clerk's office can have a
payrise to accompany their maternity pay and retirement five year's
early.

[Ian]

It also means that women will be forced to work, since their man will
no longer get more money for working harder than the women in his
office.

[Callie]

It also means women may be better able to support their children when
Dad doesn't pay child support!

Callie

[Ian]

This is a non issue. If a man can't afford to look after a child he'd
never get custody. The same should be true of women.

[Callie]

And women can afford it??? Women who do the same job as a man but get
paid less can afford to pay for all of their kids needs? What planet
are you from?

I've been on the other side of that fence....had to pay child support
to ex hubby for one kid. Then when I got custody of my son back.....do
you think he paid support??? Hell no.

Callie

[Philip Lewis]

Post by Callie
And women can afford it??? Women who do the same job as a man but get
paid less can afford to pay for all of their kids needs?

That is utter bullshit - the pay equity act has been in force a LONG time
now. I note also that all these 'studies' by feminists in the mainstream
press ALLEGING unequal pay do not actually compare 'apples with apples' but
rather present a macro figure that has not been adequately normalised to
take into account hours of overtime, length of service much less compare job
with (same!) job.

Post by Callie
What planet
are you from?
I've been on the other side of that fence....had to pay child support
to ex hubby for one kid. Then when I got custody of my son back.....do
you think he paid support??? Hell no.

Your anecdote does not trump the trend - NCP moms default (as a group) more
often than do NCP dads.

Phil

Post by Callie
Callie

[Callie]

Post by Philip Lewis
Your anecdote does not trump the trend - NCP moms default (as a group) more

often than do NCP dads.
Can you please provide links to reputable studies that show this?

Callie

[Philip Lewis]

Post by Philip Lewis

Post by Philip Lewis
Your anecdote does not trump the trend - NCP moms default (as a group) more

often than do NCP dads.
Can you please provide links to reputable studies that show this?

We don't need 'studies' to get at the required hard data - the census bureau
keeps such data on it's database - here I am going to take a shortcut
because filtering out the req. data can be quite time consuming and that is
a luxury I don't have right now. Below is an extract from a foxnews article
on this topic which has used census bureau data as it's primary source.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59963,00.html
"Census figures show only 57 percent of moms required to pay child
support -- 385,000 women out of a total of 674,000 -- give up some or all of
the money they owe. That leaves some 289,000 "deadbeat" mothers out there, a
fact that has barely been reported in the media.

That compares with 68 percent of dads who pay up, according to the figures.

But men also still pay much more in child support. The Census Bureau last
month also released numbers showing fathers paid an average of $3,000 to
custodial moms in 1997. Women paid little over half that. Moms also get
about 60 percent of what they are owed, whereas dads only get 48 percent.

...

Not only are the dads paying up more when they don't have custody, but when
the court does hand the kids over to dads, they work more than moms who have
custody.

While 7 percent of custodial moms work more than 44 hours a week, 24.5
percent of single custodial dads work more than 44 hours. And only about
half as many custodial dads get government help than moms.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hope this helps.

Phil

Post by Philip Lewis
Callie

[t***@hotmail.com]

http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/cse/pubs/2003/reports/prelim_datareport/

2/3 of so called "deadbeat dads" earn less than $10,000 per year

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59963,00.html

[Ian]

Women don't do the same jobs as men. This is the overriding problem
that women have in the equal pay stakes. Men build cities, and women
choose the colour of the carpets when the central heating's up and
running; or haven't you noticed Caroline Slocock's shambles of a
campaign to force women to be sheet metal workers? (www.eoc.org.uk)

Why did you get custody back?

As it happens women are twice as likely as men to avoid paying
anything.

[Hyerdahl]

Post by Ian
Women don't do the same jobs as men.

Sure they do, Ian. I've seen stories and depictions of women in every
line of work men do. I've seen women coal minors, and women pole
climbers. I've seen women in construction and women doctors. The only
jobs women don't do that men do are jobs they are excluded from doing.

This is the overriding problem that women have in the equal pay stakes.
Men build cities, and women choose the colour of the carpets when the
central heating's up and running; or haven't you noticed Caroline
Slocock's shambles of a campaign to force women to be sheet metal
workers? (www.eoc.org.uk)
But....Ian....there already ARE women sheet metal workers.
:-)

[c***@hotmail.com]

Post by Hyerdahl
Sure they do, Ian. I've seen stories and depictions of women in every
line of work men do. I've seen women coal minors, and women pole
climbers.

HIStory has always PROVED a few good women sharing the burdens
alongside men as equals. Its the self preserving sexist feminist types
we need to work on as masculinists. ;-)

Post by Hyerdahl
I've seen women in construction and women doctors. The only
jobs women don't do that men do are jobs they are excluded from doing.

Like dangerous jobs where women exclude themselves and men are forced
to protect the sexist pinks!

Post by Hyerdahl
But....Ian....there already ARE women sheet metal workers.

How many exactly? 1 woman? 100 women? Surely no more than 1000 at the
most in the US or UK.

[Hyerdahl]

Post by c***@hotmail.com

Post by Hyerdahl
Sure they do, Ian. I've seen stories and depictions of women in every
line of work men do. I've seen women coal minors, and women pole
climbers.

HIStory has always PROVED a few good women sharing the burdens
alongside men as equals. Its the self preserving sexist feminist types
we need to work on as masculinists. ;-)

I have no objection to offering special perks to attract women into
these professions. Attract away.

Post by c***@hotmail.com

Post by Hyerdahl
I've seen women in construction and women doctors. The only
jobs women don't do that men do are jobs they are excluded from doing.

Like dangerous jobs where women exclude themselves and men are forced
to protect the sexist pinks!

No, like jobs they are excluded from taking, as in the miltiary.
'Contard' is the funniet 'tard' I've ever heard, since he thinks women
should have to fight and kill their own military prior to killing
someone elses. :-)

Post by c***@hotmail.com

Post by Hyerdahl
But....Ian....there already ARE women sheet metal workers.

How many exactly? 1 woman? 100 women? Surely no more than 1000 at the
most in the US or UK.

Since the work we ALL choose is voluntary, I don't see how it matters.

[Callie]

Post by c***@hotmail.com
How many exactly? 1 woman? 100 women? Surely no more than 1000 at the

most in the US or UK.
It doesn't matter "how many". If *one* woman is a sheet metal
worker......she should be paid the same amount of money as a male sheet
metal worker.......no if's ands or buts.

Callie

[Viking]

Post by c***@hotmail.com

Post by c***@hotmail.com
How many exactly? 1 woman? 100 women? Surely no more than 1000 at the

most in the US or UK.
It doesn't matter "how many". If *one* woman is a sheet metal
worker......she should be paid the same amount of money as a male sheet
metal worker.......no if's ands or buts.

Obviously wrong. Is she part-time (most women are). How much
experience? What type of sheet metal work does she do? Will she
relocate if the job moves? Etc.

[Philip Lewis]

Post by Viking

Post by c***@hotmail.com

Post by c***@hotmail.com
How many exactly? 1 woman? 100 women? Surely no more than 1000 at the

most in the US or UK.
It doesn't matter "how many". If *one* woman is a sheet metal
worker......she should be paid the same amount of money as a male sheet
metal worker.......no if's ands or buts.

Obviously wrong. Is she part-time (most women are). How much
experience? What type of sheet metal work does she do? Will she
relocate if the job moves? Etc.

Good points also I note that feminists who claim to be against 'sexism' are
invariably the ones to instigate the blatant expressions of it - for example
*I* am a sexist (but not a feminist because I am honest about my sexism) but
being a sexist does NOT mean I have to abandon common sense, logic and a
sense of fairness among other qualities. So the question should be "what are
the criteria that determines pay for sheet metal workers ?" Note that this
question does NOT assume that the sex of the worker is the ONLY possible
criteria for any pay variability (if there is any) - now the feminist who is
ALLEGEDLY against 'sexism' ignores the possibility of other variables to
focus ONLY on that of the sex of the worker. Such a focus excludes a whole
host of possible variables some of which you have already raised above - yet
time after time after time I have seen such reports of 'studies' and
pro-feminist commentary presented in the mainstream media as if the SEX of
the worker was the ONLY possible variable to be of import - sure this is
sexism all right but it is more than that - it is sexism DEVOID of the
normalising influences of fairness, common sense or even logic.

Phil

[Callie]

Regardless......if a woman (fulltime, partime whathave you) is working
at a job and has the same experience and is doing the same type of
sheet metal work as a man, and is performing as well as a
man.........she should be paid the same rate.

The same goes for *any* job.

Callie

[Rifleman]

Post by Callie
Regardless......if a woman (fulltime, partime whathave you) is working
at a job and has the same experience and is doing the same type of
sheet metal work as a man, and is performing as well as a
man.........she should be paid the same rate.
The same goes for *any* job.
Callie

And what of her male colleagues when she decides she is going to take a year
off to have a baby, then when she comes back she decides she cant do any
heavy lifting any more and she does not want to work the same shifts as
before because she wants to be with her child.

[Callie]

You can throw in if's and's and but's in any situation, male or female.

*My* point is.........if a woman is doing the same job as a man....has
the same amount of experience or education.....and the same or equal
job performance..........she should be paid the same as a man. Period.

[Andre Lieven]

Post by Callie
You can throw in if's and's and but's in any situation, male or female.
*My* point is.........if a woman is doing the same job as a man....has
the same amount of experience or education.....and the same or equal
job performance..........she should be paid the same as a man. Period.

In the USA, thats been the law of the land for 42 *years*. See
1963 Equal Pay Act, passed by MEN, years *before* The National
Organisation *for* Women formed. IOW, this is very OLD news.

How about joining all those residing in the 21st Century ?

Andre



--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

[Callie]

I know when the EPA was passed and by whom. This is a
debate/discussion in which some men aren't up to par or don't feel it's
right that women be paid equal wages for equal work. In order to
discuss .... we offer opinions. Did you even bother reading the whole
thing?

Callie

[Andre Lieven]

Post by Callie
I know when the EPA was passed and by whom.

No proof offered ? Claim fails.

Post by Callie
This is a
debate/discussion in which some men aren't up to par or don't feel it's
right that women be paid equal wages for equal work.

Oh, this was a Straw Woman. OK, so you were just mindlessly man bashing,
as you had AbZero *actual facts* to offer. Got it.

Post by Callie
In order to discuss .... we offer opinions.

" No one is entitled to their opinion. They are only entitled to
an *informed* opinion. " Harlan Ellison.

Post by Callie
Did you even bother reading the whole thing?

Why, when a fact based work such as Dr. Warren Farrell's " Why
Men Earn More " shows it to be the Feminist fact free twaddle
that it is ?

Facts uber opinions, every day.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

[Ian]

Ouch! I'll bet that hurt.

[Callie]

Post by Andre Lieven
No proof offered ? Claim fails.

You are the one who posted when the EPA was passed and by whom ya
dimwit. Why would I repost that same information when replying to you??

Post by Andre Lieven

Post by Andre Lieven
Oh, this was a Straw Woman. OK, so you were just mindlessly man bashing,

as you had AbZero *actual facts* to offer. Got it.

No actually I wasn't male bashing at all. I was replying to comments
about women not deserving equal pay. I offered my opinion and feelings
on the matter. If you don't like the way I respond to these discussions
I'd suggest you pass on by them and find someone else to bash and
attempt to belittle.

Post by Andre Lieven

Post by Andre Lieven
No one is entitled to their opinion. They are only entitled to

an *informed* opinion. " Harlan Ellison.
Ok....so what? I could care less what Harlan Ellison's *opinion* is.
But.....ah.......where are the facts to back up that statement, huh???

Post by Andre Lieven

Post by Andre Lieven
Why, when a fact based work such as Dr. Warren Farrell's " Why Men Earn More " shows it to be the Feminist fact free twaddle that it is ?

You are certainly a piece of......work.

Callie

Facts uber opinions, every day.

[Andre Lieven]

Post by Callie

Post by Andre Lieven
No proof offered ? Claim fails.

You are the one who posted when the EPA was passed and by whom ya
dimwit. Why would I repost that same information when replying to you??

Because my information *belied* your false claims about Feminism
accomplishing... anything on this matter.

Post by Callie

Post by Andre Lieven

Post by Andre Lieven
Oh, this was a Straw Woman. OK, so you were just mindlessly man bashing,

as you had AbZero *actual facts* to offer. Got it.
No actually I wasn't male bashing at all. I was replying to comments
about women not deserving equal pay. I offered my opinion and feelings
on the matter.

" No one is entitled to their opinion. They are only entitled to an
*informed* opinion. " Harlan Ellison.

Post by Callie
If you don't like the way I respond to these discussions
I'd suggest you pass on by them and find someone else to bash and
attempt to belittle.

<Projection>

Post by Callie

Post by Andre Lieven

Post by Andre Lieven
No one is entitled to their opinion. They are only entitled to
an *informed* opinion. " Harlan Ellison.

Ok....so what? I could care less what Harlan Ellison's *opinion* is.

Still, you cannot refute it. Thanks for making my point.

Post by Callie
But.....ah.......where are the facts to back up that statement, huh???

Where were *yours*, to back up your claims ?

The dates of the passage of the US Equal Pay Act, and of the formation
of NOW are easy to determine. The first came before the latter, thus
the latter CANNOT have had anything to do with the former. QED.

Post by Callie

Post by Andre Lieven

Post by Andre Lieven
Why, when a fact based work such as Dr. Warren Farrell's " Why Men Earn
More " shows it to be the Feminist fact free twaddle that it is ?

You are certainly a piece of......work.

Indeed. One easily able to demolish your unsupported claims.

Thank you for your concession wrt Dr. Farrell's work, which PROVES
that the " wage gap " myth is indeed, on the FACTS, a *myth*.

Post by Callie
Callie
Facts uber opinions, every day.

Too bad you had... NONE. <laughs>

Andre



--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

[Callie]

too bad you had... NONE. <laughs>

You sound like a very bitter man......do your mom perhaps wean you at
too young of an age?

LMAO

Callie

[Andre Lieven]

Post by Callie

too bad you had... NONE. <laughs>

You sound like a very bitter man......

No proof offered ? MS-direction ad hominem fails.

Post by Callie
do your mom perhaps wean you at too young of an age?

Well, whatever my parents did, it left me ABLE to deal with facts.

A great pity for you that that ABILITY is beyond you.

Post by Callie
LMAO

At your INABILITY to deal with the topic ? Go right ahead.
Insane people flee their claims, to make unsupported claims
about those who beat their rhetoric with facts.

I'm fine with that. <laughs>

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

[Callie]

Post by Andre Lieven
At your INABILITY to deal with the topic ? Go right ahead.

Insane people flee their claims, to make unsupported claims
about those who beat their rhetoric with facts.

What don't you understand? *I* wasn't making claims. A man initially
posted here somewhere that men *should* be making more than women, or
implied that they do. I don't remember his exact words, nor am I
inclined to go look it up. If it bothers you enough, go look up and
read the *whole* thing.
But rather than do that......you see one sentence or post and take it
all out of context. But then again, I'm sure that's what you do best
right?...you pick one small blurb and build it up so that the original
idea is no longer visable.
So Andre.....go back and read and do your homework before jumping the
gun again.
Personally, I'm done with this thread. See ya on the next one you
choose to dribble upon.

Callie

[Andre Lieven]

Post by Andre Lieven

Post by Andre Lieven
At your INABILITY to deal with the topic ? Go right ahead.

Insane people flee their claims, to make unsupported claims
about those who beat their rhetoric with facts.
What don't you understand? *I* wasn't making claims. A man initially
posted here somewhere that men *should* be making more than women, or
implied that they do.

OK. They do, and that OP was RIGHT.

Post by Andre Lieven
I don't remember his exact words, nor am I
inclined to go look it up. If it bothers you enough, go look up and
read the *whole* thing.

YOUR claim, YOUR burden to prove. <yawn>

Post by Andre Lieven
But rather than do that......you see one sentence or post and take it
all out of context.

No proof offered ? Cowshit claim fails.

Post by Andre Lieven
But then again, I'm sure that's what you do best right?...

Well, since you DON'T know, then this is moot of you... <laughs>

Post by Andre Lieven
you pick one small blurb and build it up so that the original
idea is no longer visable.

No proof offered ? Cowshit claim fails.

Post by Andre Lieven
So Andre.....go back and read and do your homework before jumping the
gun again.

<Massive Projection>

Post by Andre Lieven
Personally, I'm done with this thread. See ya on the next one you
choose to dribble upon.

Thanks for once again, proving that you don't give a rat's ass about
FACTS. And, for fleeing in fact free flouncing.

For those interested in actual information on men's/women's wages,
and why there are as they are ( AS well as proving that the mythical
wage gap is a lie ), read Dr. Warren Farrell's " Why Men Earn More ".

It contains loads of verified facts that Cowshitter Callie CANNOT
refute, so she screeches at anyone who points out her sexist flaws.

Oh well, sexist bigots are what they are; pitiable.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

[Ian]

Rubbish. Women who want to work, force by nature of supply and demand
the cost of living up, thus forcing women who don't want to work to
have to work.

This would not happen if women's "special subsidies" were removed.

If a politician removed maternity pay, sick leave, flexible working,
and the sex discrimination act. This would allow employers to pay women
what they're worth, there would be no debate about it. Women wouldn't
have to use the law to pretend they're worth as much as men, companies
would be forced to pay women their worth. The result would be that
women's salaries would drop to 60% of men's.

This would then allow women who didn't want to work at all, to give up
work. As they'd be able to live off one wage. Almost all mothers would
give up within months, enabling them to stop their children from
turning into murderers and drug dealers.

[Philip Lewis]

Post by Callie
Regardless......if a woman (fulltime, partime whathave you) is working
at a job and has the same experience and is doing the same type of
sheet metal work as a man, and is performing as well as a
man.........she should be paid the same rate.

Well if you know of a female sheet metal worker that is being underpaid
relative to man with the same skills and experience etc let us know and
while you are at it - ask the female sheet metal worker why she hasn't
already use the provisions under the pay equity act. Of course it would help
her case is ALL the men with the same job,skills and experience are being
EQUALLY paid.

Post by Callie
The same goes for *any* job.

See above.

Phil

Post by Callie
Callie

[Ian]

No she shouldn't. When women earn the same rate for working, it's
harder for women to give up work.

It's simple maths, but I don't expect a girl to understand it.

[Ian]

Rubbish. Someone's got to pay for her healthcare, maternity pay, extra
sick days, unproductive time due to PMT etc.

Further, when women earn less than men, it's far easier to make the
lifestyle choice to give up work, which let's face
almost every woman there is would make once she had kids.

Further still, women don't perform at the same rate as men. Women
usually don't even average a basic working week.

[Ian]

Yeah. There was one in flashdance.

I was in a lead mine in the peaks last weekend, not a million miles
from Chatsworth. Men dug down there with spikes, hammers, in the dark,
lit by tallow candles they held in their mouths. They were denied the
ability to dig safety holes to cover them from the blasts.

When enough of them were killed, the company allowed them three days,
unpaid, (at first without any equipment, but they ultimately lent them
a pick and a hammer) to dig a side hole to shield from the blast. This
was on the condition that when finished, the men put their equipment in
first.

Their average life expectancy was just 28 years old. One of the miner's
minors was kept in the half way house to operate the bellows. The
youngest recorded spent a typical 16 hour shift in the dark, unpaid.

Women were really oppressed. Yeah.

[Callie]

<<Why did you get custody back?


Cuz the ex decided his ADD son was too much trouble for him and his new
wife. So, he gave him back to me.
I fought tooth and nail to keep custody to begin with......but since
hubby brought up in court that I'm bi.....and the good judge agreed
with hubby that bisexual women shouldn't be moms....... I lost the
case.

Callie

[c***@hotmail.com]

Post by Callie
<<Why did you get custody back?
Cuz the ex decided his ADD son was too much trouble for him and his new
wife. So, he gave him back to me.
I fought tooth and nail to keep custody to begin with......but since
hubby brought up in court that I'm bi.....and the good judge agreed
with hubby that bisexual women shouldn't be moms....... I lost the
case.

Glad to hear that... all children should by default be granted
automatic father custody lest he is a violence prone personn.

Let the women get empowered with a high paying job, an education that
her sisters of yesteryear were apparently denied.

[Callie]

I had a college education at that time...he did not. I made more money
than he as well.
Small children are more bonded with their mothers in most cases. I
believe custody should be granted to mothers in most all cases
involving infants and toddlers....unless she is violence prone as well.


And for the record, my ex decided it was too much work for him and his
wife to keep custody after only about 8 months of having it. So he
voluntarily went to court and got the decision reversed.
His original visitation schedule was for visits every other weekend,
with some holiday time as well. Just a few months after giving custody
back....he decided it was too much to have his son every other weekend,
so he went to court and had that changed to one weekend a month...and
that usually got cancelled or postponed.... Yeah...and he deserved
custody why?
It isn't all about who can best provide financially for the child.
Sometimes it really is about quality of time and about who is actually
going to "parent" the child.

Callie

[Rifleman]

Post by Callie
I had a college education at that time...he did not. I made more money
than he as well.
Small children are more bonded with their mothers in most cases. I
believe custody should be granted to mothers in most all cases
involving infants and toddlers....unless she is violence prone as well.

Utter Bollocks from a silly girl who probably does bnot deserve the love of
a good man.

Post by Callie
And for the record, my ex decided it was too much work for him and his
wife to keep custody after only about 8 months of having it. So he
voluntarily went to court and got the decision reversed.
His original visitation schedule was for visits every other weekend,
with some holiday time as well. Just a few months after giving custody
back....he decided it was too much to have his son every other weekend,
so he went to court and had that changed to one weekend a month...and
that usually got cancelled or postponed.... Yeah...and he deserved
custody why?
It isn't all about who can best provide financially for the child.
Sometimes it really is about quality of time and about who is actually
going to "parent" the child.
Callie

[Callie]

And a bunch of bs comments from a silly man.

Callie

[c***@hotmail.com]

Post by Callie
And a bunch of bs comments from a silly man.

"all" women really want is to be loved and protected out of their
rights.

All this equal stuff is a crock because women socialised girls lives to
be a protected species.. hardly equal is it?

[Callie]

"all" women really want is to be loved and protected out of their rights.

And who made you the spokesperson for all women???

Callie

[Ian]

I understand. I wouldn't want lesbians looking after my children
either.

Lesbianism has a time and a place, and that place is in porno movies.

[Callie]

What two people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms has no bearing
on their parenting skills what so ever.
You're way of thinking is from the stone ages at best.

Callie

[Ian]

Oh come on! Haven't you seen "Every woman has a fantasy" or "Charmed
Forces?"

You can't seriously be telling me that women's tennis can compete with
these films.

[Philip Lewis]

Post by Ian
Oh come on! Haven't you seen "Every woman has a fantasy" or "Charmed
Forces?"
You can't seriously be telling me that women's tennis can compete with
these films.

Quality! *wink*

Phil

[t***@hotmail.com]

Women who get paid less than men for the same job.........Puh-lease.
You've been reading too much 'Feminist BS Weekly'