"The Pentagon's move to omit a ban on prisoner humiliation from the basic guide to soldier conduct faces strong State Dept. opposition" (L.A. Times)

[Barry Schier]

{Preface}

The opponents of the Cuban Revolution, cued by Washinvgton, have
repeatedly claimed that torture takes place in Cuba. Indeed, torture
takes place in Cuba -- in Washington's military enclave of Guantanamo
Bay, which the U..S.A. stole from the Cuban people.

Technically speaking, the U.S.A. has never formally annexed Guantamemo
Bay, but occupies it under terms of a perpetual "lease." The
revolutinary Cuban government has torn up the check received annually
from Washington, not because (despite a couple of increases from the
original token "rental" payment) the annual payment is insufficient to
pay for rental of an average Los Angeles apartment for 10 weeks, but
because of the principle involved -- i.e., Cuba's dignity and
sovereignty are not to be negotiated, rented nor sold at ANY price.

There has been some (or, arguably, much) debate and criticism of this
"move to omit a ban on prisoner humiliation from the basic guide to
soldier conduct ..." from both many members of the Democrats (i.e., the
rival party to President Bush's Republican Party) and from agencies and
members of the government itself, about whether to continue to include
lip service about prohibiting torture in the military manauls. However,
NEARLY ALL of this criticism opposes torture NOT on principle, but as a
as part of a "defense debate" on whether practice will cause increased
resentment of the U.S. government, i.e., (in the words of the
concluding sentence of the article) "The overall thinking ... is that
they need the flexibility to apply cruel techniques if military
necessity requires "

-- Barry Schier



{Article}

Army Manual to Skip Geneva Detainee Rule
The Pentagon's move to omit a ban on prisoner humiliation from the
basic guide to soldier conduct faces strong State Dept. opposition.
By Julian E. Barnes, [Los Angeles] Times Staff Writer
June 5, 2006


WASHINGTON - The Pentagon has decided to omit from new detainee
policies a key tenet of the Geneva Convention that explicitly bans
"humiliating and degrading treatment," according to knowledgeable
military officials, a step that would mark a further, potentially
permanent, shift away from strict adherence to international human
rights standards.

The decision could culminate a lengthy debate within the Defense
Department but will not become final until the Pentagon makes new
guidelines public, a step that has been delayed. However, the State
Department fiercely opposes the military's decision to exclude Geneva
Convention protections and has been pushing for the Pentagon and White
House to reconsider, the Defense Department officials acknowledged.

ADVERTISEMENTFor more than a year, the Pentagon has been redrawing its
policies on detainees, and intends to issue a new Army Field Manual on
interrogation, which, along with accompanying directives, represents
core instructions to U.S. soldiers worldwide.

The process has been beset by debate and controversy, and the decision
to omit Geneva protections from a principal directive comes at a time
of growing worldwide criticism of U.S. detention practices and the
conduct of American forces in Iraq.

The directive on interrogation, a senior defense official said, is
being rewritten to create safeguards so that all detainees are treated
humanely but can still be questioned effectively.

President Bush's critics and supporters have debated whether it is
possible to prove a direct link between administration declarations
that it will not be bound by Geneva and events such as the abuses at
Abu Ghraib or the killings of Iraqi civilians last year in Haditha,
allegedly by Marines.

But the exclusion of the Geneva provisions may make it more difficult
for the administration to portray such incidents as aberrations. And it
undercuts contentions that U.S. forces follow the strictest, most
broadly accepted standards when fighting wars.

"The rest of the world is completely convinced that we are busy
torturing people," said Oona A. Hathaway, an expert in international
law at Yale Law School. "Whether that is true or not, the fact we keep
refusing to provide these protections in our formal directives puts a
lot of fuel on the fire."

The detainee directive was due to be released in late April along with
the Army Field Manual on interrogation. But objections from several
senators on other Field Manual issues forced a delay. The senators
objected to provisions allowing harsher interrogation techniques for
those considered unlawful combatants, such as suspected terrorists, as
opposed to traditional prisoners of war.

The lawmakers say that differing standards of treatment allowed by the
Field Manual would violate a broadly supported anti-torture measure
advanced by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.). McCain last year pushed
Congress to ban torture and cruel treatment and to establish the Army
Field Manual as the standard for treatment of all detainees. Despite
administration opposition, the measure passed and became law.

For decades, it had been the official policy of the U.S. military to
follow the minimum standards for treating all detainees as laid out in
the Geneva Convention. But, in 2002, Bush suspended portions of the
Geneva Convention for captured Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters. Bush's
order superseded military policy at the time, touching off a wide
debate over U.S. obligations under the Geneva accord, a debate that
intensified after reports of detainee abuses at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba,
and at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

Among the directives being rewritten following Bush's 2002 order is one
governing U.S. detention operations. Military lawyers and other defense
officials wanted the redrawn version of the document known as DoD
Directive 2310, to again embrace Common Article 3 of the Geneva
Convention.

That provision - known as a "common" article because it is part of
each of the four Geneva pacts approved in 1949 - bans torture and
cruel treatment. Unlike other Geneva provisions, Article 3 covers all
detainees - whether they are held as unlawful combatants or
traditional prisoners of war. The protections for detainees in Article
3 go beyond the McCain amendment by specifically prohibiting
humiliation, treatment that falls short of cruelty or torture.

The move to restore U.S. adherence to Article 3 was opposed by
officials from Vice President Dick Cheney's office and by the
Pentagon's intelligence arm, government sources said. David S.
Addington, Cheney's chief of staff, and Stephen A. Cambone, Defense
undersecretary for intelligence, said it would restrict the United
States' ability to question detainees.

The Pentagon tried to satisfy some of the military lawyers' concerns by
including some protections of Article 3 in the new policy, most notably
a ban on inhumane treatment, but refused to embrace the actual Geneva
standard in the directive it planned to issue.

The military lawyers, known as judge advocates general, or JAGs, have
concluded that they will have to wait for a new administration before
mounting another push to link Pentagon policy to the standards of
Geneva.

"The JAGs came to the conclusion that this was the best they can get,"
said one participant familiar with the Defense Department debate who
spoke on condition of anonymity because of the protracted controversy.
"But it was a massive mistake to have withdrawn from Geneva. By backing
away, you weaken the proposition that this is the baseline provision
that is binding to all nations."

Derek P. Jinks, an assistant professor at the University of Texas
School of Law and the author of a forthcoming book on Geneva called
"The Rules of War," said the decision to remove the Geneva reference
from the directive showed the administration still intended to push the
envelope on interrogation.

"We are walking the line on the prohibition on cruel treatment," Jinks
said. "But are we really in search of the boundary between the cruel
and the acceptable?"

The military has long applied Article 3 to conflicts - including
civil wars - using it as a minimum standard of conduct, even during
peacekeeping operations. The old version of the U.S. directive on
detainees says the military will "comply with the principles, spirit
and intent" of the Geneva Convention.

Army Manual to Skip Geneva Detainee Rule
The Pentagon's move to omit a ban on prisoner humiliation from the
basic guide to soldier conduct faces strong State Dept. opposition.
By Julian E. Barnes, Times Staff Writer
June 5, 2006


WASHINGTON - The Pentagon has decided to omit from new detainee
policies a key tenet of the Geneva Convention that explicitly bans
"humiliating and degrading treatment," according to knowledgeable
military officials, a step that would mark a further, potentially
permanent, shift away from strict adherence to international human
rights standards.

The decision could culminate a lengthy debate within the Defense
Department but will not become final until the Pentagon makes new
guidelines public, a step that has been delayed. However, the State
Department fiercely opposes the military's decision to exclude Geneva
Convention protections and has been pushing for the Pentagon and White
House to reconsider, the Defense Department officials acknowledged.

ADVERTISEMENTFor more than a year, the Pentagon has been redrawing its
policies on detainees, and intends to issue a new Army Field Manual on
interrogation, which, along with accompanying directives, represents
core instructions to U.S. soldiers worldwide.

The process has been beset by debate and controversy, and the decision
to omit Geneva protections from a principal directive comes at a time
of growing worldwide criticism of U.S. detention practices and the
conduct of American forces in Iraq.

The directive on interrogation, a senior defense official said, is
being rewritten to create safeguards so that all detainees are treated
humanely but can still be questioned effectively.

President Bush's critics and supporters have debated whether it is
possible to prove a direct link between administration declarations
that it will not be bound by Geneva and events such as the abuses at
Abu Ghraib or the killings of Iraqi civilians last year in Haditha,
allegedly by Marines.

But the exclusion of the Geneva provisions may make it more difficult
for the administration to portray such incidents as aberrations. And it
undercuts contentions that U.S. forces follow the strictest, most
broadly accepted standards when fighting wars.

"The rest of the world is completely convinced that we are busy
torturing people," said Oona A. Hathaway, an expert in international
law at Yale Law School. "Whether that is true or not, the fact we keep
refusing to provide these protections in our formal directives puts a
lot of fuel on the fire."

The detainee directive was due to be released in late April along with
the Army Field Manual on interrogation. But objections from several
senators on other Field Manual issues forced a delay. The senators
objected to provisions allowing harsher interrogation techniques for
those considered unlawful combatants, such as suspected terrorists, as
opposed to traditional prisoners of war.

The lawmakers say that differing standards of treatment allowed by the
Field Manual would violate a broadly supported anti-torture measure
advanced by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.). McCain last year pushed
Congress to ban torture and cruel treatment and to establish the Army
Field Manual as the standard for treatment of all detainees. Despite
administration opposition, the measure passed and became law.

For decades, it had been the official policy of the U.S. military to
follow the minimum standards for treating all detainees as laid out in
the Geneva Convention. But, in 2002, Bush suspended portions of the
Geneva Convention for captured Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters. Bush's
order superseded military policy at the time, touching off a wide
debate over U.S. obligations under the Geneva accord, a debate that
intensified after reports of detainee abuses at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba,
and at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

Among the directives being rewritten following Bush's 2002 order is one
governing U.S. detention operations. Military lawyers and other defense
officials wanted the redrawn version of the document known as DoD
Directive 2310, to again embrace Common Article 3 of the Geneva
Convention.

That provision - known as a "common" article because it is part of
each of the four Geneva pacts approved in 1949 - bans torture and
cruel treatment. Unlike other Geneva provisions, Article 3 covers all
detainees - whether they are held as unlawful combatants or
traditional prisoners of war. The protections for detainees in Article
3 go beyond the McCain amendment by specifically prohibiting
humiliation, treatment that falls short of cruelty or torture.

The move to restore U.S. adherence to Article 3 was opposed by
officials from Vice President Dick Cheney's office and by the
Pentagon's intelligence arm, government sources said. David S.
Addington, Cheney's chief of staff, and Stephen A. Cambone, Defense
undersecretary for intelligence, said it would restrict the United
States' ability to question detainees.

The Pentagon tried to satisfy some of the military lawyers' concerns by
including some protections of Article 3 in the new policy, most notably
a ban on inhumane treatment, but refused to embrace the actual Geneva
standard in the directive it planned to issue.

The military lawyers, known as judge advocates general, or JAGs, have
concluded that they will have to wait for a new administration before
mounting another push to link Pentagon policy to the standards of
Geneva.

"The JAGs came to the conclusion that this was the best they can get,"
said one participant familiar with the Defense Department debate who
spoke on condition of anonymity because of the protracted controversy.
"But it was a massive mistake to have withdrawn from Geneva. By backing
away, you weaken the proposition that this is the baseline provision
that is binding to all nations."

Derek P. Jinks, an assistant professor at the University of Texas
School of Law and the author of a forthcoming book on Geneva called
"The Rules of War," said the decision to remove the Geneva reference
from the directive showed the administration still intended to push the
envelope on interrogation.

"We are walking the line on the prohibition on cruel treatment," Jinks
said. "But are we really in search of the boundary between the cruel
and the acceptable?"

The military has long applied Article 3 to conflicts - including
civil wars - using it as a minimum standard of conduct, even during
peacekeeping operations. The old version of the U.S. directive on
detainees says the military will "comply with the principles, spirit
and intent" of the Geneva Convention.

....Page 2 of 2 << back 1 2


But top Pentagon officials now believe common Article 3 creates an
"unintentional sanctuary" that could allow Al Qaeda members to keep
information from interrogators.

"As much as possible, the foundation is Common Article 3. That is the
foundation," the senior official said, speaking on condition of
anonymity because the new policies had not been made public. "But there
are certain things unlawful combatants are not entitled to."

ADVERTISEMENTAnother defense official said that Article 3 prohibitions
against "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and
degrading treatment" could be interpreted as banning well-honed
interrogation techniques.

Many intelligence soldiers consider questioning the manhood of male
prisoners to be an effective and humane technique. Suggesting to a
suspected insurgent that he is "not man enough" to have set an
improvised explosive device sometimes elicits a full description of how
they emplaced the bomb, soldiers say.

The Pentagon worries that if Article 3 were incorporated in the
directive, detainees could use it to argue in U.S. courts that such
techniques violate their personal dignity.

"Who is to say what is humiliating for Sheikh Abdullah or Sheikh
Muhammad?" the second official asked. "If you punch the buttons of a
Muslim male, are you at odds with the Geneva Convention?"

Military officials also worry that following Article 3 could force them
to end the practice of segregating prisoners. The military says that
there is nothing inhumane about putting detainees in solitary
confinement, and that it allows inmates to be questioned without
coordinating their stories with others.

Human rights groups have their doubts, saying that isolating people for
months at a time leads to mental breakdowns.

"Sometimes these things sound benign, but there is a reason they have
been prohibited," said Jumana Musa, an advocacy director for Amnesty
International. "When you talk about putting people in isolation for
eight months, 14 months, it leads to mental degradation."

Jinks, of the University of Texas, contends that Article 3 does not
prohibit some of the things the military says it wants to do. "If the
practice is humane, there is nothing to worry about," he said.

Defense officials said the State Department and other agencies had
argued that adopting Article 3 would put the U.S. government on more
solid "moral footing," and make U.S. policies easier to defend abroad.

Some State Department officials have told the Pentagon that
incorporating Geneva into the new directive would show American allies
that the American military is following "common standards" rather than
making up its own rules. Department officials declined to comment for
this article about the directive or their discussions with the
Pentagon.

Common Article 3 was originally written to cover civil wars, when one
side of the conflict was not a state and therefore could not have
signed the Geneva Convention.

In his February 2002 order, Bush wrote that he determined that "Common
Article 3 of Geneva does not apply to either Al Qaeda or Taliban
detainees, because, among other reasons, the relevant conflicts are
international in scope and Common Article 3 applies only to 'armed
conflict not of an international character.' "

Some legal scholars say Bush's interpretation is far too narrow.
Article 3 was intended to apply to all wars as a sort of minimum set of
standards, and that is how Geneva is customarily interpreted, they say.

But top administration officials contend that after the Sept. 11
attacks, old customs do not apply, especially to a fight against
terrorists or insurgents who never play by the rules.

"The overall thinking," said the participant familiar with the defense
debate, "is that they need the flexibility to apply cruel techniques if
military necessity requires it."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[PL]

"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:***@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> {Preface}
>
> The opponents of the Cuban Revolution, cued by Washinvgton, have
> repeatedly claimed that torture takes place in Cuba. Indeed, torture
> takes place in Cuba -- in Washington's military enclave of Guantanamo
> Bay

and in Castro's prisons you mean.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/cuba_prison_system.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/torture_in_cuba.htm

Correct link to the Newsfeed on torture:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/torture.php

News feeds on prisons in Cuba:
- English: http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/prison.php
- Spanish: http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/carcel.php

Castro actually has over 540 prisons, no?
http://www.cubaverdad.net/list_prisons_in_cuba.htm

In these prisons people are held in these "isolation cells", no?
(video)
http://www.cubaverdad.net/a_cuban_punishment_cell.htm

Also see:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/prison_conditions_cubafacts.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/hrw_prison_conditions_in_cuba.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/umap.php

PL

[Barry Schier]

Alhtough one of the root words of "newsfeed" is "feed," your decision
generous helpings of spoon=feed poson exclusively from a gusano site is
stomach. At least the debate on whether "the 75" (about a dozen of
whom have are already been released because of mostly medically-related
reasons) are and are not "political prisoners" is an urgument with both
"sides" debating what the consequence of behaviors should be been, for
what's undisputed is that the "dissidents" regularly visited and
collaborated with the U.S. embassy (called the "U.S. Interests Section"
and not an "embassy" because the U.S. had broken diplomatic relations
with Cuba several decades ago) for the sake of trying to "change" the
Cuban government to one not hostile to U.S. government interests and
Interests.-- the debate is over where on the spectrum between lavish
praise and funding condemnation and punishment the consequences of
their actions should be, and NOT over some acts that never took place
to begin with.

By contrast, the reports about use of the torture by the United States
have come from mass media, e.g., the Los Angeles Times (from which the
reprinted article was cut and pasted) -- the same mass media which had
repeatied for almost a decade "reports" about the existence of "weaons
of mass destruction" in the context of providing the "information" most
useful for increasing sentiment for U.S. intervention in Iraq, depite
now publishing articles and commentaries that there never were "weapons
of mass destruction" and that the source of such false reports was the
U.S. government and whose "reporting" about Cuba has often been
indistinguishable from that of the U..S. Information Agency, i.e., a
government agnecy whose avowed purpose is dissemination of news
favorable to the U.S. and its interests.

-- Barry Schier



PL wrote:
> "Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:***@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > {Preface}
> >
> > The opponents of the Cuban Revolution, cued by Washinvgton, have
> > repeatedly claimed that torture takes place in Cuba. Indeed, torture
> > takes place in Cuba -- in Washington's military enclave of Guantanamo
> > Bay
>
> and in Castro's prisons you mean.
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/cuba_prison_system.htm
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/torture_in_cuba.htm
>
> Correct link to the Newsfeed on torture:
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/torture.php
>
> News feeds on prisons in Cuba:
> - English: http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/prison.php
> - Spanish: http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/carcel.php
>
> Castro actually has over 540 prisons, no?
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/list_prisons_in_cuba.htm
>
> In these prisons people are held in these "isolation cells", no?
> (video)
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/a_cuban_punishment_cell.htm
>
> Also see:
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/prison_conditions_cubafacts.htm
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/hrw_prison_conditions_in_cuba.htm
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/umap.php
>
> PL

[PL]

"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:***@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Alhtough one of the root words of "newsfeed" is "feed,"

but the can I quote Barry Schier on the quality or biass of the feed:

"both reproduce all news from the mass media revelant from
and/or relevant to Cuba, including that contrary to the views of their
respective moderators "
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/5e63a668c67fc4be?dmode=source

In short: you praised the quality of the newsfeed

> your decision
> generous helpings of spoon=feed poson exclusively from a gusano site is
> stomach.

Thanks for allowing me again to show what a hypocrite liar you are comrade
Barry.
The newsfeeds are no morethan a "subset" of the e-group and blog as they are
all fed by the same e-mails.

> At least the debate on whether "the 75" (about a dozen of
> whom have are already been released because of mostly medically-related
> reasons) are

Indeed are:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/dissidents.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/75_imprisoned_in_march_2003.htm
page with links to recent news about them.

> and are not "political prisoners" is an urgument with both
> "sides"

with Castro and his apologists in one "side" and international human rights
groups and democrats on the other
For recent news see:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/75_imprisoned_in_march_2003.htm
Fot links to human rights reports (over 100) see:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm
News on Human rights in Cuba:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/human_rights.php

>debating what the consequence of behaviors should be been, for
> what's undisputed is that the "dissidents" regularly visited and
> collaborated with the U.S. embassy

one of the few places where they can access the internet, no?
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm#Internet
Recent news:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/internet.php

> By contrast, the reports about use of the torture by the

The Castro regime come from international human rights organizations and the
independent press in Cuba that is not muzzled by Castro.

More on torture in Cuba:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/cuba_prison_system.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/torture_in_cuba.htm

Correct link to the Newsfeed on torture:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/torture.php

News feeds on prisons in Cuba:
- English: http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/prison.php
- Spanish: http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/carcel.php

Castro actually has over 540 prisons, no?
http://www.cubaverdad.net/list_prisons_in_cuba.htm

In these prisons people are held in these "isolation cells", no?
(video)
http://www.cubaverdad.net/a_cuban_punishment_cell.htm

Also see:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/prison_conditions_cubafacts.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/hrw_prison_conditions_in_cuba.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/umap.php

PL

[Barry Schier]

PL wrote:
> "Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:***@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > Alhtough one of the root words of "newsfeed" is "feed,"
>
> but the can I quote Barry Schier on the quality or biass of the feed:
>
> "both reproduce all news from the mass media revelant from
> and/or relevant to Cuba, including that contrary to the views of their
> respective moderators "
> http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/5e63a668c67fc4be?dmode=source
>
> In short: you praised the quality of the newsfeed
>

Should you wish to reprint this article, i.e.,"The Pentagon's move to
omit a ban on prisoner humiliation from the basic guide to soldier
conduct faces strong State Dept. opposition" from the L.A. Times,
preferably with my preface (but even without my preface), I will state
that the CubaNews and CubaMiente (translated into U.S. English as
"CubaVerdad") news article Web sites both reproduce "all news from the
mass media revelant from and/or relevant to Cuba, including that
contrary to the views of their respective moderators" for which
respective spare time allows. As someone who has been involved with
computers for some time, I am quite aware of an adage of the
profession: "Garbage in = Garbage out." Concerning the "quality of
the newsfeed" -- even when lies of the gusanos are very, very, very
accurately transcribed with the words placed between quotation marks
and accompanied by very, very, very accurate spelling of the name of
the source, it does not change the accuracy of what has been said or
written one iota.

> > your decision
> > generous helpings of spoon=feed poson exclusively from a gusano site is
> > stomach.
>
> Thanks for allowing me again to show what a hypocrite liar you are comrade
> Barry.
> The newsfeeds are no morethan a "subset" of the e-group and blog as they are
> all fed by the same e-mails.
>

Because "comrade" = companion or co-fighter for the same side in a war;
which is precisely the opposite of us. It's ironic that for me,
reading PL call me by a word or phrase associated with insults (e.g.,
"liar") is not offensive to me, but one implying common ground (e.g.,
"comrade") is.

(See original message for remainder of original exchange and PL's
reply.)

-- Barry Schier

[PL]

"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:***@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> PL wrote:
>> "Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:***@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> > Alhtough one of the root words of "newsfeed" is "feed,"
>>
>> but the can I quote Barry Schier on the quality or biass of the feed:
>>
>> "both reproduce all news from the mass media revelant from
>> and/or relevant to Cuba, including that contrary to the views of their
>> respective moderators "
>> http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/5e63a668c67fc4be?dmode=source
>>
>> In short: you praised the quality of the newsfeed
>>
>
> Should you wish to reprint this article, i.e.,"The Pentagon's move to
> omit a ban on prisoner humiliation from the basic guide to soldier
> conduct faces strong State Dept. opposition" from the L.A. Times,
> preferably with my preface

You mind the "I tell people what to think" part.

> (but even without my preface), I will state
> that the CubaNews and CubaMiente

which are the same.

> (translated into U.S. English as

Cuba lies - propaganda lies.
See the RSS feeds of the Cuban media at www.cubaverdad.net
http://www.cubaverdad.net/rss_propaganda.htm

All the "news" below [i.e. from Cuba's state mesia]is produced by
"jouralists" accepting the following limitations:

"Gagging Law"

Promulgated in February 1999, the "88 Law" - soon nicknamed the "gagging
law" in dissident circles - weighs like the Sword of Damocles over any
person who "collaborates, by any means whatsoever, with radio or television
programmes, magazines or any other foreign media" or "provides information"
considered likely to serve US policy. The law provides for very heavy
sentences: up to 20 years' imprisonment, confiscation of all personal
belongings and fines up to 100,000 pesos (close to 4,800 dollars, while the
average Cuban salary is 250 pesos or 12 dollars per month). This law, that
no court has taken advantage of as yet, also provides for punishment for
"the promotion, organisation or encouragement of, or the participation in
meetings or demonstrations.

"Likely to serve US policy" means in fact criticizing the Castro regime.

The "88 law": http://www.cubaverdad.net/crime_under_law_88.htm

Other repressive laws in Cuba:

http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm


> "CubaVerdad"

translated Cuba Truth.
"The Cuban government is based on lies and cheap propaganda. That's why it
is afraid of words and the truth."

Raul Rivero, April 2006, University of Sevilla, Spain.

That is why Barry hates Cuba Verdad.

> "Garbage in = Garbage out."

Kind of what your propaganda based posts are all about, no?

> Concerning the "quality of
> the newsfeed" -- even when lies of the gusanos

translated: articles from lots of different sources ranging from Europe via
India over Africa and Latin America to Cuba and US

> are very, very, very
> accurately transcribed with the words placed between quotation marks

actually: in the newsfeeds the articles are completely reproduced with links
to the original sources.

> and accompanied by very, very, very accurate spelling of the name of
> the source, it does not change the accuracy of what has been said or
> written one iota

conclusion: a large variety of sources not merely representing the group
owner's view but all of direct interest to Cuba, all correctly rendered with
links to the sources in two languages.
a quality newsfeed indeed Barry.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/rss/cubaverdadblog.php
An archive of 23,000 articles dating back 6 years.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/
Search over the last 4 months:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/weblog/

>> > your decision
>> > generous helpings of spoon=feed poson exclusively from a gusano site is
>> > stomach.
>>
>> Thanks for allowing me again to show what a hypocrite liar you are
>> comrade
>> Barry.
>> The newsfeeds are no more than a "subset" of the e-group and blog as they
>> are
>> all fed by the same e-mails.
>>
>
> Because "comrade" = companion or co-fighter for the same side in a war;

there is no "war", Barry.
Just a peaceful struggle to end a dictatorial regime.
More infomation:
www.cubaverdad.net

Links to 100 reports by international human rights organizations' reports on
Cuba:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm

On the dissidents that peacefully struggle against the regime:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/dissidents.htm
On the independent jaournalists that break the Castro "information blockade"
(one of them the winner of the UnescoUNESCO/Guillermo Cano World Press
Freedom Prize for 2004 by UNESCO Director-General Koïchiro Matsuura, on the
recommendation of an international jury)
http://www.cubaverdad.net/independent_journalists_in_cuba.htm

On Raul Rivero: see:
The jailed Cuban journalist Raúl Rivero Castañeda was today awarded the
UnescoUNESCO/Guillermo Cano World Press Freedom Prize for 2004
http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php-URL_ID=14519&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html
Also see:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/rivero.php


> which is precisely the opposite of us.

you are indeed the opposite, Barry.
You "dehumanize" the people that oppose your communist cause by calling them
"worms".

Eight Stages of Genocide

3. DEHUMANIZATION:

One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated
with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the
normal human revulsion against murder.

At this stage, hate propaganda in print and on hate radios is used to vilify
the victim group. In combating this dehumanization, incitement to genocide
should not be confused with protected speech. Genocidal societies lack
constitutional protection for countervailing speech, and should be treated
differently than in democracies. Hate radio stations should be shut down,
and hate propaganda banned. Hate crimes and atrocities should be promptly
punished.

http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm

> It's ironic that for me,
> reading PL call me by a word or phrase associated with insults (e.g.,
> "liar") is not offensive to me,

I know.
It is all in a "days work" for an apologist like you.
A pity for you is that people that see the lies in your post exposed will
have another opinion.
But I understand that someone like you who prefers to hand out "light bulbs"
for the cause to people that have foods and older light bulbs rather than
providing food to the Cuban people that needs it (773,000 currently
receiving WFP food aid) doesn't care about that.

On torture in Cuba:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/cuba_prison_system.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/torture_in_cuba.htm

Correct link to the Newsfeed on torture:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/torture.php

News feeds on prisons in Cuba:
- English: http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/prison.php
- Spanish: http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/carcel.php

Castro actually has over 540 prisons, no?
http://www.cubaverdad.net/list_prisons_in_cuba.htm

In these prisons people are held in these "isolation cells", no?
(video)
http://www.cubaverdad.net/a_cuban_punishment_cell.htm

Also see:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/prison_conditions_cubafacts.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/hrw_prison_conditions_in_cuba.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/umap.php

PL

[Barry Schier]

PL wrote (re the U.S. government's policy toward Cuba):
> [T]here is no "war", Barry.
> Just a peaceful struggle to end a dictatorial regime.

Indded, by the yardstick of PL and most other opponents of the Cuban
Revolution and/or apologists for U.S. government policy, there is no
war. The U.S. government's attempted invasions of Cuba by proxy forces
(e.g., the Bay of Pigs fiasco), countless assassination attempts
against officials in the Cuban government, a policy of trying to impose
as many hardships as possible on Cuba's civilian population in an
(ineffective and illegal) attempt to make them want to turn against
their government (i.e., the U.S. embargo against Cuba which the U.N.
General Assembly has condemned for more than a dozen years in a ago by
increasingly overwhelming margins, originally 57 vs. 3 and most
recently 179 vs. 4) are "peaceful" and par for the course.

Footnote: Wherever in the range between Fidel Castro's claim of
600-800+ attempts and the 8+ officially admitted attempts to kill him
(as detailed in the mid-1970s by during the Senate hearings of (fomer)
Senator Church and therefore not denied by Washington i) the actual
number of U.S. government sponsored attempts to assassinate Fidel
Castro may lie, the fact remains that EVEN ONE attempt to assassinate
someone (still less a head of state, and still less a popular leader in
his home country) is an egregious VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.
However, by the school of logic of opponents of the Cuban Revolution --
including that of Professor PL -- there is no doubt that all of these
assassination attempts were "peaceful" ones

-- Barry Schier

[PL]

"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:***@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> PL wrote (re the U.S. government's policy toward Cuba):
>> [T]here is no "war", Barry.
>> Just a peaceful struggle to end a dictatorial regime.
>
> Indded, by the yardstick of PL and most other opponents of the Cuban
> Revolution

Not of the Cuban revolution Barry.
I agree and support fully the aims of the anti-Batista Cuban revolution: the
restoration of the 1940 constitution.
Both Castro and Che have confirmed that the Cuban revolution was NOT
communist.
"The Cuban revolution is not a class revolution, but a liberation movement
that has overthrown a dictatorial, tyrannical government."12
12 Che Guevara Speaks: Selected Speeches and Writings, G. Lavan ed. (New
York: Pathfinder, 1967), p. 13.


"The myth, induced by the revolutionary euphoria of the pro-Castro left,
that a genuine social-revolution took place in Cuba, is based on a number of
major fallacies."


" Insofar as relations with the communists are concerned, Theodore Draper
notes the striking resemblance between the policies of Batista and Castro:


. . . Batista paid off the communists for their support, by among other
things, permitting them to set up an official trade union federation, the
Confederacion de Trabajadores de Cuba (CTC) with Lazaro Pena as its
Secretary-General. In 1961, Castro paid off the communists for their
support, by, among other things, permitting Lazaro Pena to come back
officially as Secretary General of the CTC...(ibid. p. 204) "


http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrev...


Sam Dolgoff

http://www.cubaverdad.net/references/sam_dolgoff.htm

> and/or apologists for U.S. government policy,

the typical "dualist" narrow view of the dogmatic anti-US pro-Castro
propagandists.
Again you show your inability to "unchain" you from the Castro propaganda.
In the eyes of narrow, frustrated dogmatists this is about a "US - Cuba"
struggle.
In fact this is about a struggle for the respect of human rights by the
Castro regime in Cuba.
The fact that the US - an imperfect democracy - also condemns the Cuban
dictatorial regime is NOT part of the main issue.
I support all peaceful means to achive democracy in Cuba.
Barry supports:
- repression
http://www.cubaverdad.net/systematic_repression_of_dissent.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/cuba_repressive_machinery.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/repression.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/represion.php
- violations of the freedom of speech of Cubans
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/freedom_of_speech.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/internet.php
-violations of the freedom of movement of Cubans
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/freedom_of_movement.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/balsero.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/migration.php
- violations of other human rights in Cuba
http://www.cubaverdad.net/universal_declaration_of_human_rights.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/human_rights.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/derechos_humanos.php
- torture by the Cuban regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/torture_in_cuba.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/a_cuban_punishment_cell.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/torture.php
- a totalitarian system
http://www.cubaverdad.net/totalitarian_system.htm
- repressive laws that violate human rights
http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm
- imprisonment of peaceful opponents of the regime of Fidel Castro
http://www.cubaverdad.net/dissidents.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/75_imprisoned_in_march_2003.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/black_spring.php
- the destruction of thousands of life in acts of democide and politicide
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/13_de_marzo.htm

> there is no war.

Nope, Barry.
there is no "war".
The "war" is no more than an excuse for repression.
The US is the largest food supplier of Cuba and has been since 2002.
Strange way to wage "war".
No shot has been fired in years unless it was by the Cuban regime at it's
people.

From the entry page of www.cubaverdad.net
"The Cuban government is based on lies and cheap propaganda. That's why it
is afraid of words and the truth."
Raul Rivero, April 2006, University of Sevilla, Spain.

PL

[Ichi]

You are a lying piece of lefty scum.

"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:***@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> PL wrote:
>> "Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:***@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> > Alhtough one of the root words of "newsfeed" is "feed,"
>>
>> but the can I quote Barry Schier on the quality or biass of the feed:
>>
>> "both reproduce all news from the mass media revelant from
>> and/or relevant to Cuba, including that contrary to the views of their
>> respective moderators "
>> http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/5e63a668c67fc4be?dmode=source
>>
>> In short: you praised the quality of the newsfeed
>>
>
> Should you wish to reprint this article, i.e.,"The Pentagon's move to
> omit a ban on prisoner humiliation from the basic guide to soldier
> conduct faces strong State Dept. opposition" from the L.A. Times,
> preferably with my preface (but even without my preface), I will state
> that the CubaNews and CubaMiente (translated into U.S. English as
> "CubaVerdad") news article Web sites both reproduce "all news from the
> mass media revelant from and/or relevant to Cuba, including that
> contrary to the views of their respective moderators" for which
> respective spare time allows. As someone who has been involved with
> computers for some time, I am quite aware of an adage of the
> profession: "Garbage in = Garbage out." Concerning the "quality of
> the newsfeed" -- even when lies of the gusanos are very, very, very
> accurately transcribed with the words placed between quotation marks
> and accompanied by very, very, very accurate spelling of the name of
> the source, it does not change the accuracy of what has been said or
> written one iota.
>
>> > your decision
>> > generous helpings of spoon=feed poson exclusively from a gusano site is
>> > stomach.
>>
>> Thanks for allowing me again to show what a hypocrite liar you are
>> comrade
>> Barry.
>> The newsfeeds are no morethan a "subset" of the e-group and blog as they
>> are
>> all fed by the same e-mails.
>>
>
> Because "comrade" = companion or co-fighter for the same side in a war;
> which is precisely the opposite of us. It's ironic that for me,
> reading PL call me by a word or phrase associated with insults (e.g.,
> "liar") is not offensive to me, but one implying common ground (e.g.,
> "comrade") is.
>
> (See original message for remainder of original exchange and PL's
> reply.)
>
> -- Barry Schier
>

[Juan Jimenez]

"Ichi" <***@killcommies.com> wrote in message
news:jAphg.4319$***@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> You are a lying piece of lefty scum.

"Lefty scum"???? What kind of idiotic 1950's McCartwit crap is that? LOL!



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:44861f9c$0$26845$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "Ichi" <***@killcommies.com> wrote in message
> news:jAphg.4319$***@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>> You are a lying piece of lefty scum.
>
> "Lefty scum"???? What kind of idiotic 1950's McCartwit crap is that? LOL!

McCarthy certainly is no hero of mine.
Left or right is not the issue.
The issue is condemning human rights abuses in Cuba or not.

Here are some views of "leftists" that are not dogmatically biased:

Some information from a guy that was prosecuted by McCarthy, a friend of Che
about Cuba:

Cuba, the "Pearl of the Antilles," though by no means a paradise, was not,
as many believe, an economically backward country. Castro himself admitted
that while there was poverty, there was no economic crisis
and no hunger in Cuba before the Revolution. (See Maurice Halperin: The Rise
and Fall of Fidel Castro, University of California, 1972, pgs. 24, 25, 37)

On the destruction of nutrion:
"After WW2 imported rice was difficult to obtain and costly, so Cuban
farmers had an incentive to grow rice. In 1949 Cuba produced 10 percent of
domestic consumption. In 1960, the year after Castro came to power, the
Cuban rice harvest was 400,000 metric toms, making Cuba for the first time
self-sufficient in rice. During the decade of the fifties, Cuban producers
had successfully adopted the latest methods of rice farming employed in
Louisiana and Texas. From the point of technological expertise, rice
production outstripped that of any other branch of Cuban agriculture; and in
terms of money value, rice became one of Cuba's major crops.
By 1962, with Cuban agriculture socialized, the rice yield was reduced by
50%. The same year, as has already been noted, the rationing of foodstuffs
was introduced, with the rice ration set at 6 pounds per person per month.
... That lowered per capita consumption by two thirds... More over, for
low-income Cubans, for whom rice formed amore substantial part of their
diet, the reduction was even greater."
M. Halperin, Return to Havana, Vanderbilt University Press, Nashville, 1994,
p.49-50.


A well functioning free market ensured that from a shortage in 1949 break
even was achieved by 1960. Castro ruined the industry by 1962. In two years
50% of the annual need in rice were no longer met.


In 1966 the rice ration was again reduced by half to 3 ponds per person per
month. that is down from 18 to 3 ponds since the start of the dictatorship.
The reason was: the deal that Castro himself had made with China on the
supply of rice fell through when Castro didn't deliver the promised support
in their "polemic" with the SU.
(for details on the rice Crisis and the Cuba - China quarrel see: M.
Halperin, Taming of Fidel Castro, Berkeley: University of California Press,
1981, p. 195-207.)


"Thus in 1965, Cuban rice production had dwindled to 50,000 tons..."
M. Halperin, Return to Havana, Vanderbilt University Press, Nashville, 1994,
p.50..

Why did Castro need to reduce rice productions even further: to grow more
sugar to reach his (foolish) goal of 10 million tons of sugar in 1970.
He never made it, but destroyed the production of a staple food while at it.
Gross incompetence. Criminal negligence.


At the end of 1989 the rice ration was 5 pounds. Down from an average
consumption of 18 pounds before the revolution.
Last I saw that is still the same outside Havana with a 20% larger ration of
6 pounds in Havana.

About Maurice Halperin:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/references/halperin.htm

Here is something from one of the US most prominent anarchists: Sam Dolgoff
http://www.cubaverdad.net/references/sam_dolgoff.htm

In November 1940, the communists supported Batista's candidates in the
elections to the Constituent Assembly. In return for their support, Batista
allowed the communists to organize and control the government sponsored
union, Cuban Confederation of Labor (CTC Confederacion de Trabajadores de
Cuba) The first Secretary General of the CTC was Lazaro Pena--who,
ironically, enough, held the same post in the Castro regime. In exchange for
these favors the communists guaranteed Batista labor peace.

(also see the video: Cuba Memoria Sindical) In line with the Communist
Party's "Popular Front Against Fascism" policy, the alliance of the
Communist Party with the Batista was officially consumated when the Party
joined the Batista government. The Communist Party leaders Carlos Rafael
Rodriguez and Juan Marinello (who now hold high posts in the Castro
government) became Ministers Without Portfolio in Batista's Cabinet. To
illustrate the intimate connections between the communists and Batista, we
quote from a letter of Batista to Blas Roca, Secretary of the Communist
Party:

June 13,1944
Dear Blas,
With respect to your letter which our mutual friend, Dr. Carlos Rafael
Rodriguez, Minister Without Portfolio, passed to me, I am happy to again
express my firm unshakeable confidence in the loyal cooperation the People's
Socialist Party [the then official name of the Communist Party of Cuba] its
leaders and members have given and continue to give myself and my
government. . .

Believe me, as always, Your very affectionate and cordial friend,
Fulgencio Batista


In the electoral campaign the Communist candidates won ten seats in the
Cuban parliament and more than a hundred posts in the Municipal councils.

In line with their pro-Batista policy the communists joined Batista in
condemning Fidel Castro's attack on the Moncada Barracks (July 1953 -- the
anniversary of the attack is a national holiday in Castro Cuba)
. . . the life of the People's Socialist Party (communist). . . has been to
combat . . . and unmask the putschists and adventurous activities of the
bourgeois opposition as being against the interests of the people. . .
(reported in Daily Worker, U.S organ of the Communist Party, August 10,
1953)
Throughout the Batista period the communists pursued two parallel policies:
overtly they criticized Batista and covertly they cooperated with him.

See: (with internal links added)
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrevolution/chapter6.html



The Cuban Revolution
A Critical Perspective
by Sam Dolgoff



The Character of the Cuban Revolution

A Non-Social Revolution

The myth, induced by the revolutionary euphoria of the pro-Castro left, that
a genuine social-revolution took place in Cuba, is based on a number of
major fallacies. Among them is the idea that a social revolution can take
place in a small semi-developed island, a country with a population of about
eight million, totally dependent for the uninterrupted flow of vital
supplies upon either of the great super-powers, Russia or the U.S. They
assume falsely that these voracious powers will not take advantage of Cuba's
situation to promote their own selfish interests. There can be no more
convincing evidence of this tragic impossibility than Castro's sycophantic
attitude toward his benefactor, the Soviet Union, going so far as to applaud
Russia's invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968, a crime certainly on a par with
the military coup in Chile, which Castro rightfully condemned. To assume,
furthermore, that the Cuban social revolution can be miraculously achieved
without simultaneous uprisings in Latin America and elsewhere, is both naive
and irresponsible.

Nationalization Versus Socialism

To equate nationalization of the economy and social services instituted from
above by the decree "revolutionary government" or a caudillo, with true
socialism is a dangerous illusion. Nationalization and similar measures,
under the name of "welfareism," are common. They are widespread, and in many
cases deep-going programs, instituted by democratic "welfare" states or
"benevolent" dictators as an antidote to revolution, and are by no means
equtvalent to socialism.

Russia and Cuba: Two Revolutions Compared

Another fallacy about the nature of the Cuban Revolution can perhaps be best
illustrated by contrasting the early stages of the Russian Revolution of
1917 with the Cuban events. Analogies between the Russian and Cuban
Revolutions--like analogies in general--fail to take into account certain
important differences:

Czarism was OVERTHROWN by the spontaneous revolts of the peasant and
proletarian masses only after a prolonged and bloody civil war.

In Cuba, the Batista regime COLLAPSED WITHOUT A STRUGGLE for lack of popular
support. There were no peasant revolts. No general strikes. Theodor Draper
(and many other observers) argues persuasively that since there were at
least "500,000 agricultural workers in Cuba" there could not have been many
peasants in a

. . . guerrilla force that never amounted to more than a thousand. . . there
was nothing comparable in Cuba to the classic peasant revolution led by
Zapata in Mexico in 1910. . . there was no national peasant uprising.
Outside the immediate vicinity of the guerrilla forces, revolutionary
activity, in the country as a whole, was largely a middle class phenomenon,
with some working class support, but without working class
organizations...(Castroism: Theory and Practice; New York, 1965, p. 74-75)
[This takes on added significance when we consider that the unions comprised
ONE MILLION out of a total population of about six million when the
Revolution began, Jan. 1, 1959.]

In Russia, the masses made the social revolution BEFORE the establishment of
the Bolshevik government. Lenin climbed to power by voicing the demands of,
and legalizing the social revolutionary DEEDS of the workers and peasants:
"All Power to the Soviets," "The Land to the Peasants," "The Factories to
the Workers," etc. In Cuba, Castro, for fear of losing popular support,
carefully avoided a social-revolutionary platform--assuming that he had one.
Unlike Lenin, he came to power because he promised to put into effect the
bourgeois-democratic program.

History is full of unexpected twists and turns. Ironically enough, these two
different revolutions had similar results: Both Lenin and Castro betrayed
their respective revolutions, instituted totalitarian regimes and ruled by
decree from above.

The well-known anarcho-syndicalist writer and activist, Augustin Souchy,
makes a cogent comparison between the Spanish Revolution (1936-1939) and the
Cuban Revolution (both of which he personally witnessed):

. . . while in Spain, the confiscation of the land and the organization of
the collectives was initiated and carried through, by the peasants
themselves; in Cuba, social-economic transformation was initiated, not by
the people, but by Castro and his comrades-in-arms. It is this distinction
that accounts for the different development of the two revolutions; Spain,
mass revolution from the bottom up; Cuba, revolution from the top down by
decree . . . (see Cuba. An Eyewitness Report, below)

Which brings to mind the celebrated phrase of the "Apostle" of Cuban
independence Jose Marti: "To Change the Master Is Not To Be Free."

Revolution the Latin American Way

The Cuban Revolution draws its specific character from a variety of sources.
While not a Latin American "palace revolution" which produced no deep seated
social changes, it nevertheless relates to the tradition of miltarism and
bogus paternalism of Latin American "Caudillismo," the "Man on Horseback."
"Caudillismo"--"right" or "left," "revolutionary" or "reactionary"--is a
chronic affliction in Latin America since the wars for independence
initiated by Simon Bolivar in 1810. The "revolutionary caudillo" Juan Peron
of Argentina, catapulted to power by "leftist" army officers, was deposed by
"rightist" military officers. Maurice Halperin calls attention to the ". . .
expropriation of vast properties in Peru in 1968 and in Bolivia in 1969 by
the very generals who had destroyed Cuban supported guerrilla uprisings in
their respective countries. . . " (The Rise and Fall of Fidel Castro;
University of California, 1972, p. 118)

The militarization of Cuban society by a revolutionary dictatorship headed
by the "Caudillo" of the Cuban Revolution, Fidel Castro follows, in general,
the Latin American pattern. Like other revolutionary Latin American
"Caudillos, " Castro would come to power only on the basis of programs
designed to win the indispensable support of the masses. Edwin Lieuwen
marshalls impressive evidence:

. . . In Chile in 1924, Major Carlos Ibanez established a military
dictatorship [that] was notably successful in combining authoritarian rule
with policies aimed at meeting popular demands for greater social justice.
Successful but short lived revolutions took place during 1936 under the
leadership of radical young officers inspired by ideas of social reform and
authoritarian nationalism. . In Bolivia a clique of radical young officers
came to power. Major David Toro and Colonel German Busch successfully headed
regimes that had social revolution as their goals. . . they catered to

the downtrodden and pledged to build a new nation. Toro and Busch based
their dictatorial regimes on attempts to win mass support ... (Arms and
Politics in Latin America; New York, 1961, pgs. 60, 62, 78, 79)

When in 1968, a "revolutionary" military Junta seized power in Peru, the new
military government proclaimed the fundamental principle underlying all
"radical" military regimes":

. . . the final aim of the State, being the welfare of the nation; and the
armed forces being the instrument which the State uses to impose its
policies, therefore, . . . in order to arrive at collective prosperity, the
armed forces have the mission to watch over the social welfare, the final
aim of the State... (quoted, Modes of Political Change in Latin America, ed.
Paul Sigmund, New York, 1970, p. 201)

Dr. Carlos Delgado, Director of the Information Bureau of the Revolutionary
Government of Peru, after stressing that the revolution was " . . .
initiated from above" by decree, boasted that the dictatorship in "...the
last four and a half years" accomplished more for the betterment of the
people than in the "whole epoch of Republican rule." The revolution was
hailed, boasted Delgado, even by the French Marxist thinker, Henri Lefebvre,
as one of the most important historical events of the contemporary world..."
(see Reconstruir, anarchist bi-monthly, Buenos Aires, Nov.-Dec. 1974)

There is an umbilical connection between militarism and the State, fully
compatible with, and indispensable to, all varieties of State
"socialism"--or more accurately State Capitalism. George Pendle (and other
observers) with respect to Peron's social and welfare programs initiated to
woo mass support concludes that:

...Peron's National Institute of Social Security...converted Argentina to
one of the most advanced countries in South America. . . it was not
surprising that the majority of workers preferred Peron to their traditional
leaders...they felt that Peron accomplished more for them in a few years
than the Socialist Party achieved in decades...(Argentina; Oxford University
Press, London, 1965, pas. 97, 99)

. . . In Havana Premier Fidel Castro proclaimed three days of mourning and
Cuban officials termed Peron's death a blow to all Latin America. . .(New
York Times, July 2, 1974) This cynical proclamation was not made solely for
tactical reasons, but in recognition of the affinity between the Castro and
Peron regimes. As early as 1961, there were already informal contacts
between Che Guevara and Angel Borlenghi "... a number two man in Peron's
government and his Minister of the Interior for eight years ... Che told
Borlenghi that there's no question about it that Peron was the most advanced
embodiment of political and economic reform in Argentina ... and under Che's
guidance a rapport was established between the Cuban Revolution and the
Peronist movement ... Che has in his possession a letter from Peron
expressing admiration for Castro and the Cuban Revolution and Che had raised
the question of inviting Peron to settle in Havana . . . " (quoted by
Halperin, from Ricardo Rojo's work, My Friend Che; ibid. p. 329-330)

Herbert Matthews supplements Rojo's revelations:...the Argentine journalist
Jorge Massetti who went into the Sierra Maestra in 1958, became friends with
Guevara. He was trained for guerrilla warfare in the Sierra Maestra and in
1964 was killed in a guerrilla raid in Argentina . . . Massetti was credited
with convincing Guevara that Peronism approximated his own ideas. Hilda
Gadea--Guevara's first wife--wrote that for Ernesto Guevara, the fall of
Peron Sept. 1955 was a heavy blow. Che and Massetti blamed it,...'on North
American Imperialists'...(ibid. p. 258)

[Carmelo Mesa-Lago notes the connection between State Socialism and
militarism. Castro enthusiastically hailed] " . . . the Peruvian Social
Revolution as a progressive military group playing a revolutionary role. .
." (Cuba in the 1970s: University of New Mexico Press, 1975, p. 11]) In an
interview, Castro emphatically maintained that social revolution is
compatible with military dictatorship, not only in Peru, but also in
Portugal and Panama.

[When the military junta in Peru] took power...the first thing they did was
to implement agrarian reform which was MUCH MORE RADICAL than the agrarian
reform we initiated in Cuba. It put a much lower limit on the size of
properties; organized cooperatives, agricultural communities; . . . they
also pushed in other fields--in the field of education, social development,
industrialization. . . We must also see the example of Portugal where the
military played a decisive role in political change. . .and are on their way
to finding solutions. . . we have Peru and Panama--where the military are
acting as catalysts in favor of the revolution. . . (Castro quoted by Frank
and Kirby Jones, With Fidel; New York, 1975, p. 195-196)

[The evidence sustains Donald Druze's conclusion that] . . . the programs of
modern 'caudillos' embodies so many features of centralism and National
Socialism, that it almost inevitably blends into communism...(Latin America:
An interpretive History; New York, 1972, p. 570)

Militarism flourishes in Cuba as in Latin America. Castro projected
militarism to a degree unequalled by his predecessor, Batista: total
domination of social, economic and political life. In the Spring of 1959, a
few months after the Revolution of January 1st, Castro, who appointed
himself the "Lider Maximo" ("Caudillo") of the Revolution and
Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, promised to cut the size of the army
in half and ultimately to disband and replace it by civilian militias and
police. "The last thing I am," said Castro, "is a military man . . . ours is
a country without generals and colonels. . . "

Within a year after the disintegration of the Batista Army, Castro turned
Cuba into a thoroughly militarized state, with the most formidable armed
force of any in Latin America. For the first time in Cuban history,
compulsory military service was instituted. Now, Cuba has adopted the
traditional hierarchical ranking system of conventional armies. The Cuban
army differs in no essential respect from the armies of both "capitalist"
and "socialist" imperialist powers.

"Communism" a la Castro

Insofar as relations with the communists are concerned, Theodore Draper
notes the striking resemblance between the policies of Batista and Castro:

. . . Batista paid off the communists for their support, by among other
things, permitting them to set up an official trade union federation, the
Confederacion de Trabajadores de Cuba (CTC) with Lazaro Pena as its
Secretary-General. In 1961, Castro paid off the communists for their
support, by, among other things, permitting Lazaro Pena to come back
officially as Secretary General of the CTC...(ibid. p. 204)

If we accept at face value Castro's conversion to "communism," his
"communism" embodies the Latin American version of Stalinism, absolute
personal dictatorship. But "Caudillos" are not primarily ideologues. They
are, above all, political adventurers. In their lust for power, they are not
guided by ethical considerations, as they claim. In this respect, there is
no essential difference between capitalist states and "revolutionary
socialist states." All dictators conceal their true visage behind the facade
of a political party, paying lip service to goals supposedly popular with
the masses. Castro became a "communist" because he considered that his
survival in power depended on cementing cordial relations with his saviors,
the "socialist" countries (former enemies) and by extension with Batista's
former allies, the domestic "communists." To promote his ends, Castro
established relations with Franco Spain and the Vatican. Nor did he hesitate
to side with the Arab oil magnates--lords over their impoverished
subjects--in the mid-east disputes, or to endorse the Russian invasion of
Czecho-Slovakia.

The Real Revolution Is Yet To Come

Albert Camus observed:

. . . the major event of the twentieth century has been the abandonment of
the values of liberty on the part of the revolutionary movement, the
weakening of Libertarian Socialism, vis-a-vis Caesarist and militaristic
socialism. Since then, a great hope has disappeared from the world, to be
replaced by a deep sense of emptiness in the hearts of all who yearn for
freedom... (Neither victims Nor Executioners)

Whether Castro is working out his own unique brand of "Cuban Socialism" is a
relatively minor question. Even if Castro had no connection with the
communist movement, his mania for personal power would lead inevitably to
the establishment of an "independent" totalitarian regime. What is decisive
is that the Cuban Revolution follows the pattern established in this century
by the aborted Russian Revolution of 1917. This pattern is the
counter-revolution of the State.



See:
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrevolution/chapter3.html



Or how about the

International Socialist Review:



Cuba had been run by dictator Fulgencio Batista since 1934. His regime was
corrupt and brutal. Although fully supported by the U.S., Batista was hated
by everyone except for his immediate collaborators and hangers-on. In the
late 1950s, this regime had no true left opposition. Gangsters ran the
unions. The Communist Party (CP)-known at the time as the Popular Socialist
Party (PSP)-was, like other Communist Parties of the 1930s, a useful
instrument of Stalin's foreign policy. However, the PSP had decomposed far
more than the average CP. It was linked to the Batista regime to such an
extent that Castro could say,

What right does Señor Batista have to speak of Communism? After all, in the
elections of 1940 he was the candidate of the Communist Party.his portrait
hung next to [Communist leaders] Blas Roca's and Lazaro Peña's; and half a
dozen ministers and confidants of his are leading members of the CP.(10)


The opposition to Batista that existed in the cities was overwhelmingly
middle class, organized around the Instituciones Cívicas. Another component
of the opposition was the student movement-also middle-class oriented.
Although it would be a mistake to say that workers did not participate in
opposition activity, their participation was not independent. Instead of
putting forward their own class demands, workers were participants in a
movement that was united in its shared hatred of Batista's regime.
Castro's July 26th Movement was made up for the most part of intellectuals,
students, professionals and a limited number of peasants. Not only were its
members mostly middle class, but its politics were decidedly middle class,
too. It emphasized modest land reform and the development of Cuban
capitalism without the obstructions of big business or imperialism. The
guerrilla movement began its life in 1953 with an attack on the Moncada
Barracks. In 1956, it re-launched its guerrilla struggle when it took to the
Sierra Maestra mountains. The guerrilla strategy was one that explicitly
rejected workers as the main revolutionary force. Che Guevara-who later
became the worldwide symbol of guerrilla struggle-considered Cuban workers
to be complacent and bought off by the system. In fact, he considered the
cities an obstacle in the struggle:

It is more difficult to prepare guerrilla bands in those countries that have
undergone a concentration of population in great centers and have
developed light and medium industry.The ideological influence of the cities
inhibits the guerrilla struggle.11


In the first year of the revolution, Guevara explicitly denied its class
character:

"The Cuban revolution is not a class revolution, but a liberation movement
that has overthrown a dictatorial, tyrannical government."12

10 Quoted in H. M. Enzenburguer, Raids and Reconstructions: Essays on
Politics, Crime, and Culture (London: Pluto Press, 1976), p. 200.

11 Quoted in T. Cliff, Deflected Permanent Revolution (London:
Bookmarks,1986), pp. 14-15. Originally in C. Guevara, "Cuba: Exceptional
Case?"Monthly Review (NY), July/August 1961, pp. 65-66.

12 Che Guevara Speaks: Selected Speeches and Writings, G. Lavan ed. (New
York: Pathfinder, 1967), p. 13.

See: http://www.isreview.org/issues/11/cuba_crisis.shtml

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:y1zhg.469605$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:44861f9c$0$26845$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> "Ichi" <***@killcommies.com> wrote in message
>> news:jAphg.4319$***@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>> You are a lying piece of lefty scum.
>>
>> "Lefty scum"???? What kind of idiotic 1950's McCartwit crap is that? LOL!
>
> McCarthy certainly is no hero of mine.
> Left or right is not the issue.
> The issue is condemning human rights abuses in Cuba or not.
>
> Here are some views of "leftists" that are not dogmatically biased:
>
> Some information from a guy that was prosecuted by McCarthy, a friend of
> Che about Cuba:
>
> Cuba, the "Pearl of the Antilles," though by no means a paradise, was not,
> as many believe, an economically backward country. Castro himself admitted
> that while there was poverty, there was no economic crisis
> and no hunger in Cuba before the Revolution. (See Maurice Halperin: The
> Rise and Fall of Fidel Castro, University of California, 1972, pgs. 24,
> 25, 37)

You will also find that there was rampant racism, corruption and control of
many government and private industry functions by organized crime out of the
US.

> On the destruction of nutrion:
> "After WW2 imported rice was difficult to obtain and costly, so Cuban
> farmers had an incentive to grow rice. In 1949 Cuba produced 10 percent of
> domestic consumption. In 1960, the year after Castro came to power, the
> Cuban rice harvest was 400,000 metric toms, making Cuba for the first time
> self-sufficient in rice. During the decade of the fifties, Cuban producers
> had successfully adopted the latest methods of rice farming employed in
> Louisiana and Texas. From the point of technological expertise, rice
> production outstripped that of any other branch of Cuban agriculture; and
> in
> terms of money value, rice became one of Cuba's major crops.
> By 1962, with Cuban agriculture socialized, the rice yield was reduced by
> 50%. The same year, as has already been noted, the rationing of foodstuffs
> was introduced, with the rice ration set at 6 pounds per person per month.
> ... That lowered per capita consumption by two thirds... More over, for
> low-income Cubans, for whom rice formed amore substantial part of their
> diet, the reduction was even greater."
> M. Halperin, Return to Havana, Vanderbilt University Press, Nashville,
> 1994, p.49-50.

And? All you are proving here is that the so-called embargo has only
affected the people who were "supposed" to benefit from it. Tell us
something we don't already know.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:44873158$0$26811$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:y1zhg.469605$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:44861f9c$0$26845$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "Ichi" <***@killcommies.com> wrote in message
>>> news:jAphg.4319$***@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>>> You are a lying piece of lefty scum.
>>>
>>> "Lefty scum"???? What kind of idiotic 1950's McCartwit crap is that?
>>> LOL!
>>
>> McCarthy certainly is no hero of mine.
>> Left or right is not the issue.
>> The issue is condemning human rights abuses in Cuba or not.
>>
>> Here are some views of "leftists" that are not dogmatically biased:
>>
>> Some information from a guy that was prosecuted by McCarthy, a friend of
>> Che about Cuba:
>>
>> Cuba, the "Pearl of the Antilles," though by no means a paradise, was
>> not, as many believe, an economically backward country. Castro himself
>> admitted that while there was poverty, there was no economic crisis
>> and no hunger in Cuba before the Revolution. (See Maurice Halperin: The
>> Rise and Fall of Fidel Castro, University of California, 1972, pgs. 24,
>> 25, 37)
>
> You will also find that there was rampant racism, corruption

as there is today.

Just some examples:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/corruption.php

Racism:

Recent News:
Hablemos del racismo, y en específico el de Cuba
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2005/11/hablemos-del-racismo-y-en-especfico-el.html
¿Dónde están los negros?
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2005/11/donde-estan-los-negros.html
Blanco y negro: el mito de la igualdad en Cuba
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2005/11/blanco-y-negro-el-mito-de-la-igualdad.html

Some background:

Racism in Cuba:

One student's experience shows racism alive in Cuba
BY DAKARAI AARONS / For the Lincoln Journal Star
"You look Cuban."

This was a phrase I was to hear many times during the week I spent in
Havana. But the stereotyping started even before then, when security agents
at Miami International Airport gave me instructions in Spanish without
asking if I spoke Spanish. When I entered the plane, the flight attendant
directed me to my seat in Spanish. Meanwhile, my white companions were
nearly always addressed in English.
None of these people could have known that I have been studying Spanish for
eight years and am semi-fluent in the language.


What they did know was I look like the 62 percent of Cuba's population that
is either black or of black and white heritage.


Shortly after arriving in Havana that Saturday afternoon, a part of our
delegation went to a restaurant near the Malec n to eat lunch. The waiter
approached our table and discovered members of the group speaking English.
So he immediately came to me and started speaking Spanish.


Having people speak only Spanish to me would be the least of my experiences
as the result of looking like a black Cuban.


One morning, I had just finished checking my e-mail in the business center
of the Habana Libre hotel and walked across the second floor hall to the
elevators in the hotel lobby. The guard grumbled something in Spanish in my
direction at first and then greeted me with a gruff "Excuse me" as I walked
past him and pressed the button to return to my room.


The guard told me he couldn't speak English, so I informed him that I spoke
Spanish. Now communicating effectively, he told me he needed to see my
identification. I was puzzled by this but showed him my electronic room key
and said I was a guest at the hotel.


The guard informed me it was not enough, so I asked him what he specifically
wanted to see. He did not give a clear answer, so I showed him my Maryland
driver's license.


Flustered, he waved me on and I went about my way. I had confused him. The
guard assumed I was Cuban, and as I was to learn later, the unwritten rule
in Cuba is that if you are Cuban, you do not go to the good hotels --
especially if you are black.


I shrugged off this incident, but it was not to be the last encounter. It
was just the beginning.


By Tuesday, the procedure had become familiar -- and maddening. Each
evening, I would enter the lobby to go to my room, and each evening, hotel
security would stop me and demand to see proof that I was a guest. I soon
learned to carry around the "identification card" we were given with our
room assignments. It was a paper card with my name and room number on it --
proof I was indeed a guest of the Habana Libre. I am sure most of my
colleagues have but a vague recollection of the identification cards, as
they were never asked for them.


That morning, our group met with Pedro Alvarez, who is in charge of
importing for Cuba. I recounted my experiences and asked what Cuba would do
to make sure such treatment would not be the norm if the United States
lifted its travel ban on Cuba. Would other black Americans face the same
treatment?


"I don't know the reason you have been asked for your ID," he said. "As a
general rule, all of the Americans here are well-treated."


Such treatment, Alvarez said, was unheard of, and certainly not due to
racism. In fact, he found my experience to be unbelievable.


"I think some of these questions are moving into the science fiction area,"
he said. "We don't have problems with racism here. Blacks and whites are the
same here. We don't have that kind of problem."


In the hotel that evening, I underwent the usual interrogation -- but this
time with a new feature. One of the security guards rode the elevator for
the sole purpose of seeing that I disembarked on the 18th floor, then he
went back downstairs.


The next day, we interviewed Ricardo Alarc n, president of the National
Assembly of People's Power, Cuba's parliament. His answer was different.


Cuba has an issue with racism, he said, but it is made worse by capitalism
and economic disparities between blacks and whites.


That evening, hotel security stopped me twice within the space of three
hours. The second time, I did something they did not expect. I was being
stopped even though the security guard -- who was black --had conferred with
the white officer who had stopped me just hours earlier. When he asked me if
I was a guest, I whipped out my card and proceeded to tell him that I had
already been stopped earlier by the other guard and that there was no reason
to stop me. The guard was surprised by my reaction and began apologizing
profusely.


This time was also notable because five of my colleagues were with me when I
was stopped. They had listened sympathetically throughout the week as I had
relayed my encounters with security. But this time, their reaction was not
one of mere sympathy. They were angry and indignant about the way I was
being treated. It had become real in their minds. One of my colleagues asked
me what it felt like to be the victim of racial profiling. I told him that I
would never wish anyone to endure being humiliated, devalued and
criminalized for no other reason than the color of his skin.


Later that evening, as I passed through the lobby once more, the guard who
had originally stopped me held up his hands as if preparing to defend
himself from a physical attack and said, "No problema." He then smiled and
extended his hand. I accepted his handshake and bade him a good night.


On another day, I was verbally assaulted and even grabbed by security
officials while in a club. That evening, I wrote: "I feel like a marked man,
a criminal, and I have committed no crime other than being black and male."


It was the meeting at the Juventud Rebelde newspaper that made clear for me
just how much of an issue racism was in Cuban society. I once again
recounted my experiences, this time for Roberto de Armas of Cuba's Foreign
Ministry and Rogelio Polanco Fuentes, the newspaper's executive director.


During this conversation, de Armas said the words I had heard so many times
that week. "You don't look American. You look Cuban."


He continued, implying that people who looked like me were often known to be
male prostitutes, drug traffickers and thieves in Cuban society, which is
why I was being stopped repeatedly.


"Black people are not being stopped in this country just for being black,"
he later said. "It is something that is simply nonexistent."


This is not true, said one black Cuban I interviewed. There is much he loves
about Cuba, but its belief that racism is a nonissue bothers him. "I love my
country, and I love my revolution, and I can tell you this because you
understand," he said. "Why are we doing this?"


His question will remain unanswered until everyone can agree on the answer
to another question: "Does racism exist in Cuba?"


And the day that occurs seems far away.


http://www.journalstar.com/local.php?story_id=80377

Still another work-related restriction -- one which is not codified in law
but subtly practiced -- pertains to on-the-job racism in the tourism
industry. While Cuban labor laws prohibit race-based job discrimination, the
vast majority of Cuban employees in tourist operations are light-skinned.
Since the government-controlled employment agencies conduct hiring for the
tourist industry, as with all sectors of the economy, one may deduce that
the regime is an active practioner of racial discrimination. Clearly,
increased foreign investment in tourism is worsening the job situation for
Cubans with darker skin.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/working_conditions.htm


These artists face a special challenge to use their work to explore life
in Cuba, with issues of escape, shortages of consumer goods, the Cuban
bureaucracy, inequality and racism. Yet they also embrace the joys of
everyday life and the country's folk traditions. Their work speaks to
their community, but also to the world.


"It's a tough existence," said Noel Smith, curator of education at
Graphicstudio/Institute for Research in Art at the University of South
Florida. "Artists in Cuba have to be local and international at the same
time."


http://www.suntimes.com/output/entertainment/sho-sunday-cuba26.html


n his eagerness to manipulate race to his advantage, Castro is
producing a regression that will prove to be much more detrimental to
blacks in the long run than the racism they supposedly had to deal with
at the end of the Batista dictatorship. Bear in mind that the population
of Cuba does not perceive nuances. It has been educated to think only in
black and white. In such a society, the introduction of thought
partitioned by race contributes to increasing the violence already
existing within it.


http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/montenegro.castro.html


Tourism reviving racism in Cuba


By Ron Howell. Newsday. May 18, 2001. Chicago Tribune


SANTIAGO DE CUBA, Cuba -- This is the capital of Cuba's black belt, the
place where slaves rose up against Spain in the 1800s and where Fidel
Castro's band of revolutionaries in 1959 declared a society that would
forever end racism on the island.


By the accounts of many observers, Castro went a long way toward achieving
his goal of a raceless society. He outlawed discrimination. He built schools
and hospitals by the score in poor communities where people of color lived.


It is curious, then, to enter the Melia Santiago, eastern Cuba's first
five-star hotel, and find that none of the employees in the lobby is black.


"One has to notice when one goes into the hotels that out of all the people
working in the front and in management, maybe one, maybe two, maybe none
will be black," said Carlos Thomas Brown, 58, a local musician who is black.


Cubans are ordinarily reluctant to complain about race bias or even admit
that it exists, but increasingly some are expressing their frustration.


"Everywhere else in Cuba a black person can rise to assistant manager or
manager of a [state] enterprise," Thomas Brown continued, "but in tourism,
no. The people who are running the tourism businesses are white, and they
prefer to have their own people working there."


Four decades after Castro's revolution proclaimed the death of racism,
scholars and even some government officials say Cuba's new opening to
foreign tourism and the U.S. dollar is reviving old racial attitudes and
disparities.


"The evidence is overwhelming that there has been a rebirth of some kinds of
racism, in attitudes and . . . even discriminatory behaviors," said
Alejandro de la Fuente, a white Cuban-American and University of Pittsburgh
history professor who recently published a book on race in Cuba. He warned
that the problem could worsen if officials and the public do not overcome an
ingrained denial that racism could exist in Cuba.


Before the recent tourism boom, many Americans, including some
race-sensitive blacks, returned from visits to Cuba declaring there was no
racial bias.


In Santa Clara, a day's drive west of Santiago, local folk speak of how
racism permeated life in prerevolution Cuba. In those days, the beautiful
downtown Vidal Park was segregated.


"At night there was music, and boys would walk together in one direction and
the girls in a circle in the other direction, but blacks and [mixed-race]
mulattos had to stay in separate circles, and they were not allowed to walk
with the whites or there would be trouble," said Rolando Guerra Dominguez,
68. Guerra Dominguez, a retired cabaret worker, has mulatto ancestors but
considers himself white and walked with the whites.


Fraternal societies in town were divided on racial lines. Jose de la Caridad
Navarrete Suri, 76, was a member of Bella Union.


"That was the society for the darkest complexioned people," he said. "We had
our club and we would get together and throw parties and dance." Mulattos
would join the Maceo club. Whites were members of the Casino Espanol.


When Castro's government took power, it outlawed the clubs and other signs
of racial distinction.


With social policies that stressed schooling and health for the broad
population, notably the poor, the communist government virtually eliminated
the gaps in education and life expectancy between wealthier whites and poor
blacks.


A newly educated black class of civil servants arose, attaining coveted
positions in state-run establishments. Whites emigrated in large numbers to
the United States.


But like almost everything else in Cuba, the country's effort to erase
racism was affected by the collapse in 1991 of the Soviet Union. Moscow had
provided several billion dollars a year in aid, funding the social programs
that had narrowed Cuba's racial divides.


As Cuba fell into an economic depression, its citizens going hungry and tens
of thousands fleeing in boats to the United States, the government sought to
revive its economy by opening the country to foreign tourism and allowing
Cubans to possess U.S. dollars. It was those two changes, specialists say,
that largely ushered in renewed racial bias.


"Whites are predominating in the sectors that service tourists," said Pedro
Rodriguez, an investigator with the state-run Center for Anthropological
Studies.


"We have interviewed many blacks, and more and more of them are saying it's
easier for them to get a job in the interior of an establishment, as a cook
or cleaning up, than to get one where you work closely with the tourists,"
he said.


Because all Cubans get their salaries in pesos, the most desirable hotel
jobs are top administrative ones, which can offer informal bonuses, or in
the lobby, where tourists present tips in dollars.


The most serious allegations of race bias are against foreign-owned, rather
than state-owned, hotels, Rodriguez said. The Melia Santiago is owned by the
Spanish hotel chain Sol Melia.


Rodriguez says many hotel administrators appear to be using an old
"Hollywood" standard of beauty in selecting employees who deal with
tourists.


"They believe that beauty is blond hair and white skin. This is part of the
social psychology that many say is returning," he said.


University of Pittsburgh professor de la Fuente agreed. He said that as he
researched his book, hotel administrators told him they preferred whites or
light-skinned mulattos because those groups had buena aparencia-- good
looks--which impressed tourists. This year 2 million tourists are expected
to visit Cuba, mostly from Canada and Europe.


Race and tourism also intersect uncomfortably on the streets of Havana these
days, where police often question dark-complexioned young Cubans on the
assumption that they are hustlers looking to make a dollar from tourists.


"It is not right to do that to me, because I was just standing here. I
wasn't doing anything," said Norge Castillo, 17, a black youth with
African-looking features. A police officer had just stopped him on a corner
in the tourist-laden area near the Havana Libre hotel.


Checking Castillo's identity, the officer determined that the youth had no
police record.


For Castro and others who have made racial equality an abiding quest, the
most painful reality may be the persistent poverty of Cuba's heavily black
eastern provinces.


Nationwide, one-third of Cubans identified themselves as black or mulatto in
the latest census, in 1981. In Santiago province, 70 percent did so.


While some black Cubans in the Santiago region have begun to voice the idea
that disparities in Cuba are linked somehow to skin color, many Cubans
repeat the long-standing position of the government.


"Racism no longer exists in Cuba," said Guerra Dominguez, the retired
cabaret worker in Santa Clara. "Fidel did away with all that."


De la Fuente said that if anything will impede efforts to combat
discrimination -- especially the job discrimination in the tourism
industry -- it will be this habit of denial.


http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/may01/18e1.htm


Castro's execution of 3 raises specter of racism
By Tom Carter
Published June 15, 2003


The execution of three blacks by a Cuban government firing squad in
April for attempting to hijack a boat to Miami is raising questions about
racism on the communist island.
It was the first time anyone, black or white, had been executed for
trying to flee Cuba.
Cuban President Fidel Castro justified the executions of Jorge Luis
Martinez Isaac, Lorenzo Enrique Copello Castillo and Barbaro Leodan Sevilla
Garcia as a deterrent to another mass exodus.
But some Cuba watchers, on and off the island, doubt that the three
would have been put to death had they been white.
"By executing [three young blacks], Castro was sending a clear message
to the Afro-Cuban population" that dissent will not be tolerated, said Jaime
Suchlicki, director of Cuban studies at the University of Miami, in a report
on Cuban racism released this week.
"I was a Fidelista. I love my nation," Ramona Copello told wire service
reporters in Cuba on April 11, the day her son was executed. "I no longer
love Fidel. He assassinated my son. Now I have no faith in the revolution."
On March 18, two days before the beginning of the U.S.-led war with
Iraq, Cuban officials began a crackdown by arresting 35 opposition figures.
A day later, six men hijacked an airplane to Key West, and less than two
weeks later, a second plane was hijacked.
The three Afro-Cuban men tried to commandeer a Havana ferry to take them
to Florida days before the Castro regime jailed 43 dissidents.
The ferry hijackers were executed April 11, nine days after their
capture.
Cubans of African descent, who make up 62 percent of the island's
population, live in the worst, most dilapidated Havana neighborhoods: Cerro,
Luyano and Guanabacoa.
Afro-Cubans have the worst jobs and are increasingly disenfranchised,
according to the University of Miami report.
In 1997, the Cuban government passed laws preventing citizens from
moving to Havana in search of high-paying tourist jobs, but according to the
State Department, the law "was targeted at individuals and families from the
poorer, predominantly black and mulatto eastern provinces."
The report notes that none of the top 10 generals or senior military
leaders in Cuba is black.
None of the 15 presidents of provincial assemblies is black. Two of the
40-person Council of Ministers is black, and three of the 15 provincial
heads of the Cuban Communist Party are black.
Cuban blacks, according to government reports, have 5 percent of the
lucrative tourism jobs, but Afro-Cubans constitute 85 percent of Cuba's
prison population.
Afro-Cubans and black tourists increasingly complain about "racial
profiling" by state security officials, according to the report.
Mr. Castro, a white revolutionary from an upper-class background,
overthrew the dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista, a corrupt leader of mixed
race, in 1959.
One of the pillars of faith in the Cuban revolution is that Mr. Castro
freed poor black Cubans, giving them schools, jobs and health care.
Today, Afro-Cubans who turn their backs on the "gains of the revolution"
are considered unappreciative.
"There are a growing number of black Cubans in the opposition movement.
The leadership is almost entirely black or mulatto," said Frank Calzon of
the Center for a Free Cuba, noting that the ferry hijackers could not have
been executed without Mr. Castro's specific order.
"No white Cuban has ever been executed for trying to leave. The message
is clear: If you are white and speak out, it is bad. If you are black and
speak out, you are ungrateful and watch out."
But Wayne Smith, at the Center for International Policy, though
acknowledging that racism exists in Cuba, said it did not play a part in the
executions.
"It was wrong. They didn't harm anyone, but the Cuban government said
they had to do it to prevent a mass exodus. My sense is that they were not
executed because they were black," said Mr. Smith, who has extensive
contacts within the Cuban government.
Uva de Aragon of Florida International University's Cuban Research
Institute agreed.
"There is racism in Cuba, but I think if they were white, they would
have been executed just the same," she said.


http://www.washtimes.com/world/20030615-121438-1741r.htm


Human Rights Watch :


"In the tourist industry, on-the-job racism emerged as a persistent
problem."


See : Human Rights Watch :
http://www.hrw.org/hrw/worldreport99/americas/cuba.html


See : Racism in Cuba and The Failure of the American Left by Sidney
Brinkley


"By the time I Left Cuba I was disappointed and disillusioned. I thought
that, except for the U.S. embargo, Cuba was a success story. There are
people who have told me that I was viewing Cuba through an African American
perspective. I see how that's true and colors my perceptions but I only
allow that argument but so far. It's the same old racism wherever it is
found and no one knows that better than the darker of us.


In every way, by whatever standard, White Cubans are better off than Black
Cubans. If everyone is subject to the same embargo how can that be? The
people whom the revolution benefited the most are White Cubans and given the
present social structure of Cuba, if the embargo was halted tomorrow, it
would be White Cubans who would benefit first and foremost.


I am not anti-Castro. I am pro-Black. Cuba is but a variation of the same
old theme, White people getting over on Black people and that is the failure
of the American Left. They stand by in silence and let it happen. They are
so in "awe" of Castro. They are so "impressed" by Castro. After forty years
they need to get over it and get on his case. The honeymoon is over. Until
they are willing to do that, the Left are complicit in whatever the
suffering of the Afro-Cubans.


Source : http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubaracism2.html


See : The Issue of Race in Love and Sex


The racial issues the larger society are dealing with are also found among
Gays. Indeed, there are those who say racism among Gays is even more
pronounced than among straights. "There is a great deal of racism in the Gay
community," says Ana Himsley Serrano, a mulatto who looks as if she is
Black. "There is a lot of prejudice against Blacks." One of those prejudices
involves interracial relationships; they are frowned upon.


Source : http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubarace.html


Racism in Cuba and The Failure of the American Left by Sidney Brinkley


Castro is invariably portrayed as victim but Castro is also victimizer but
that's a fact that Robinson and most of the Left prefer not to acknowledge.


Robinson offered a qualified criticism of Castro's Cuba. "While Cuba has a
one-party system and suppresses dissent, it still has a better record with
respect to human rights than many Latin American governments the United
States has steadfastly supported," Robinson wrote. What kind of reasoning is
that? I would imagine the political prisoners languishing in Cuban jails
would find little comfort in that statement. The same people that go
ballistic over human rights abuses in China, go mute when it comes to
Castro's human rights abuses in Cuba.


Cuba has a population of over 11 million people. Approximately 60% are
Black. However, while the Cuban constitution declares everyone equal, Cuban
society is stratified by race and color of skin. Viewed as a pyramid, White
Cubans are at the apex, mulattos or mixed race are in the middle and
Afro-Cubans are at the bottom. The same position they occupied before the
revolution.


There are virtually no Afro-Cubans found in the hierarchy of the Cuban
government. And they are not found anywhere else in anything close to their
numbers in the population. When it comes to addressing Cuba's entrenched
racism Castro plays the American Left like a fiddle. He knows that all he
has to do is acknowledge the sorry fact and that will be enough to impress
the Left. That Castro has done nothing to correct it is overlooked.


The truth is, the Black majority is being ruled by the White minority. If
that wasn't acceptable in South Africa, why is it acceptable in Cuba?
Indeed, that's one reason the Castro regime is so strongly opposed to
democracy. There's the very real possibility, indeed probability, that for
the first time in the history of Cuba, White Cubans would no longer be in
control.


Source : http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubaracism.html
Alternative : http://www.tbwt.com/views/feat/feat1541.asp


On Fidel :


MASKING HISPANIC RACISM: A CUBAN CASE STUDY
Dr. Miguel A. De La Torre


In all conscience, based on the knowledge I have of Fidel on a personal
basis, I must say that Fidel Castro is not a discriminator in a
segregationist sense. He is not the type of person who would discriminate
against a black man just because his skin is black. By the same token, I do
not believe Fidel to be a machista in the sense that he would discriminate
against a woman because she is female, or against a Chinese because he is
Chinese. That is not where Fidel's problem lies. Fidel's limitation - great
limitation! - is in incapacity to understand what it has meant and continues
to mean to be black in Cuba. He is equally incapable of understanding what
it means to be a worker, to be a peasant, or to be a woman! And this has to
do with a profound problem of bourgeois and petit-bourgeois revolutionaries
who entertain a deeply paternalistic outlook on revolution. It is the
problem of those who, having neither emerged from nor lived among the
people, come into positions of leadership and nonetheless believe themselves
capable of really identifying with the ordinary man.


Source : http://www.hope.edu/academic/religion/delatorre/articles/jhlt.html


On the film : If You Only Understood


Directed by Rolando Díaz


"The most moving moment of the 20th Festival of Havana was the showing of IF
YOU ONLY UNDERSTOOD, a social study of the daily life of eight young black
women in today's Havana... The film talks about themes not publicly
discussed in Cuba: racism, emigration, and certain traumatic experiences
like the 'international missions.' Upon leaving the cinema, people who
didn't know the filmmaker, embraced and congratulated him." - Gary Krebs,
NEWE BURGER ZEITUNG (Zurich)


Source : http://www.frif.com/new99/ifyouonl.html


Report :


Mistrust and hatred for the police is also partially wrapped up in the issue
of racism. Understanding the issue and treatment of racism is really much
more difficult in Cuba. There, too, it is not condoned. And, the
population - while officially 60 per cent white - is highly mixed. You will
see couples and families comprising every possible genetic combination. But
racism is endemic there. It comes up in every conversation and in every
context.


Havanans also appear to have a rural bias that translates into racism,
especially against those from Oriente Province. Because no one wants the
job, policemen are recruited from the countryside. Service with the police
can also supplant conscription. As a result, many of the police are
rural,undereducated, boorish and, ofttimes, black. A Cuban, innocent or
guilty, will brazenly confront a policeman. The level of discourse can be
quite unnerving.


Source : http://members.xoom.com/madsot2/decon2.html


See : In Cuba: It's a crime to be black or a woman


HAVANA -- Being black in Cuba is like having a sign on your forehead that
reads "Dangerous criminal.''
"They don't let you live, bro', they don't let you live,'' Nemesio said the
other evening and went on to explain.
"In a one-block stretch, even if you're dressed better than a store
mannequin, the police will ask for your identification papers three times,
and at the end, even if you haven't shooed a fly from your shoulder, they'll
put you in a truck or a patrol car and ship you off to the police station.
There, with a bit of luck, you'll spend three or four hours waiting for them
to verify that you're not involved in anything shady.
``Then they'll release you without a single apology, and the story will
repeat itself because as soon as you get back on the street they'll ask you
for your papers again, they'll cart you away again, they'll keep you another
three or four hours in the station, and they'll release you again. In just
one day you could land in jail a couple of times, simply because you're
black.''
Still, the Constitution, the newspapers, and the leaders say that there is
no racism in Cuba. Accept what I've just written as proof of the opposite.
And it goes not only for black men.
If you're a woman, don't dare look attractive and dress well (which is like
saying ``out of uniform'' because all the clothes sold here look the same).
The police will take you for a streetwalker and for sure they'll disrespect
you every other block.


Source : http://www.cadp-nyc.org/manuscripts/in_cuba_its_a_crime.htm


The revival of racism and racially discriminatory practices under the
"Special Period" has led to growing resentment and resistance in the black
population, which finds itself in a hostile environment without the
political and organizational resources needed to fight against it. In this
context, events such as the Malecón riot in Havana on August 5, 1994, become
understandable. These spontaneous outbursts of rage and anger are typical of
politically disorganized groups who perceive their situation as hopeless.
Symptomatically, participants in this street protest threw rocks at
hard-currency stores while calling for "freedom" and political changes.


The surprise of the Cuban government concerning the racial composition of
the rioters according to a leaked official report blacks and mulattoes were
in the majorityis a function of its own prejudiced expectations. Many
government officials expect young blacks to behave as passive
"beneficiaries" of revolutionary gains, not as active protagonists for their
own well-being and future.


Perhaps because of these expectations, the reaction of the Cuban government
to this process of racial polarization has been slow and inadequate. Given
the lack of action, it is questionable whether in official circles there is
even an awareness of the problem. The program of the Fifth Congress of the
Cuban Communist Party did contain an element of promise: while claiming that
the Revolution "eliminated the institutional bases of racism," it also
called for maintaining "the just policy" of increasing black representation
in positions of command.


Yet even if fully implemented, the impact of this policy would have been
limited, its benefit more symbolic than economic. Positions within the
government bureaucracy are generally not as desirable as they were in the
past, and they certainly do not provide material benefits comparable to
those in the hard-currency sector. However, a visible increase in the number
of blacks in the power structure may have sent a message to the private sect
or that the government would not tolerate racial exclusion and
discriminatory practices.


In reality, even a symbolic gain was not realized. The Central Committee
(including the Politburo) was whiter following the Fifth Congress, with only
13 percent non-whites, than in 1991 (16 percent non-whites) or 1986 (28
percent non-whites). The propor tion of blacks and mulattoes among the
candidates for the National Assembly of People's Power in the 1997 elections
(21 percent) was higher than in the Central Committee, but still
significantly lower than their percentage of the population. Furthermore,
this figure does not show a significant improvement over the racial
composition of the candidates in the elections of 1993 (19 percent).


While it is frequently argued that blacks support the current regime because
they are terrified by the potential return of the white exiles, the limited
available evidence does not support this assertion. Even accepting the
notion that the Cuban-American community is racist, it does not follow that
blacks in the island fully share this perception or, more to the point, that
they are politically paralyzed as a result. Opinions about the
Cuban-American community are in fact less negative than the government might
prefer, a process that the government itself has facilitated by softening
its rhetoric about the exiles presenting them as economic emigrants and
welcoming their remittances.


The 1994 CID-Gallup survey found that 75 percent of respondents referred to
Cuban-Americans in affectionate terms. Only 27 percent of whites and 33
percent of blacks responding to a survey on racial attitudes conducted in
Havana and Santiago the same year agreed with the proposition that the Miami
exiles are racist. Thirty-nine percent of black respondents believed that,
upon their return, white exiles would bring racism back to the island, but
this proposition was supported mainly by blacks 40 years and over (51
percent). Only 18 percent of younger respondents agreed with the statement.


In fact, one of the conclusions from this survey was that generational
differences were far more important than racial ones in determining
perceptions about the Revolution, its achievements, its shortcomings, and
the impact of the "Special Period." These results coincide with those of the
CID-Gallup survey, which found younger Cubansblack and whiteto be less
satisfied with their personal life on the island. The current crisis has
eroded the emblematic achievements of the Cuban Revolution to such a degree
that many young blacks no longer perceive the restoration of capitalism as a
major reversal. The inability of the Cuban government to maintain its
previous levels of social assistance, the deterioration of those that
remain, and the introduction of limited market reforms with their legacy of
increasing inequality and social polarization, have all undermined the
legiti macy of the political order, regardless of race.


Despite the greater importance of generational factors, the racialization of
the crisis could, however, lead to racially defined forms of organization
and resistance, further fueling racial tensions on the island. It is perhaps
worth mentioning that although the vast majority of respondents to the 1994
survey on racial attitudes opposed the formation of an all-black
organization, a full 16 percent of younger black respondents considered this
type of organization to be a necessity.


Racial exclusion almost always breeds racially defined social responses.
Unless existing institutions (such as the courts) or organizations (such as
the unions and the Party) effectively represent Afro-Cuban concerns, the
creation of a racially defined organization might be perceived as the only
way to counteract discrimination in the labor market and other areas of
social life.


Source :
http://sfswww.georgetown.edu/sfs/programs/clas/Caribe/bp.racisim.htm

>> On the destruction of nutrion:
>> "After WW2 imported rice was difficult to obtain and costly, so Cuban
>> farmers had an incentive to grow rice. In 1949 Cuba produced 10 percent
>> of
>> domestic consumption. In 1960, the year after Castro came to power, the
>> Cuban rice harvest was 400,000 metric toms, making Cuba for the first
>> time
>> self-sufficient in rice. During the decade of the fifties, Cuban
>> producers
>> had successfully adopted the latest methods of rice farming employed in
>> Louisiana and Texas. From the point of technological expertise, rice
>> production outstripped that of any other branch of Cuban agriculture; and
>> in
>> terms of money value, rice became one of Cuba's major crops.
>> By 1962, with Cuban agriculture socialized, the rice yield was reduced by
>> 50%. The same year, as has already been noted, the rationing of
>> foodstuffs
>> was introduced, with the rice ration set at 6 pounds per person per
>> month.
>> ... That lowered per capita consumption by two thirds... More over, for
>> low-income Cubans, for whom rice formed amore substantial part of their
>> diet, the reduction was even greater."
>> M. Halperin, Return to Havana, Vanderbilt University Press, Nashville,
>> 1994, p.49-50.
>
> And? All you are proving here is that the so-called embargo

Nope.
Not the "so-called" embargo, Castro's "zafra" of 10 million tons of sugar.
He says:
"By 1962, with Cuban agriculture socialized, the rice yield was reduced by
50%."
50% reduction in 2 years of "home grown rice" in Cuba.
A major screw up, no?

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:PvIhg.470452$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
>>
>> You will also find that there was rampant racism, corruption
>
> as there is today.

Yup, there sure is, just try to find a dark face among the floating pickup
scene.

>> And? All you are proving here is that the so-called embargo
>
> Nope.
>
> Not the "so-called" embargo

Yup. The so-called embargo. It's a pity that so much of Miami lives off
hate. Ever wonder why the Cuban exiles have never been truly accepted in US
or Puertorican society? Now you know.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:44880c38$0$26892$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:PvIhg.470452$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>>>
>>> You will also find that there was rampant racism, corruption
>>
>> as there is today.
>
> Yup, there sure is, just try to find a dark face among the floating pickup
> scene.

One of the "biggest black faces" on the seen has just met his end.
Very few "black faces" in the top.

>>> And? All you are proving here is that the so-called embargo
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>> Not the "so-called" embargo
>
> Yup. The so-called embargo.
"so-called" is a good description of it.
The USA has been the largest food supplier of Cuba since 2002.
Castro bought fror million s of dollars of light bulbs of a US comapny
recently to give them the Jamaicans that have (older but working) light
bulbs and food while 773,000 people in Cuba need WFP food aid.
That says something about Castro's priorities, no?

Important energy-saving initiative
published: Saturday | May 27, 2006

These bulbs which, ironically, are gifts from Cuba, manufactured in
China by a U.S. company, have an estimated retail value of over $2
billion.
http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20060527/cleisure/cleisure1.html

( the data is in Jamaican dollar $2Bn Jamaican is about U$ 30 million.)

On the WFP aid to Cuba.
see:
http://www.wfp.org/operations/current_operations/BR/104230_0603.pdf
http://www.wfp.org/operations/current_operations/project_docs/100320.pdf
http://www.wfp.org/operations/current_operations/BR/100320_0411.pdf

Cuba
(a) Drought continues persist in the eastern provinces, including the
Province of Camagüey.
(b) Distribution under Emergency Operation (EMOP) 10423.0 is ongoing.
(c) Procurement of 233 tons of vegetable oil and 368 tons of beans through
the regional office has just been requested to cover urgent needs for one
month.
(d) EMOP 10423.0 is resourced at 20 percent of the total requirement. The
operation also received IRA 1.2 million. US$ 2,953,800 is urgently needed to
meet outstanding requirements.
http://www.wfp.org/english/?ModuleID=78&Key=683#192

> It's a pity that so much of Miami lives off hate.

How would you feel if someone told you that your nephew, brother, mother can
not leave the country without a special permit?
What would you say if the told you your 12 year old nephew can't visit you
because "exposure to European society" might corrupt him?
How would you feel if someone told you mother in law she is not allowed on
the patio bar of a hotel in her own city?
What would you say if a clerk at the reception desk of a hotels tells your
sister in law to get out of the lobby as she (Cuban) is not allowed in the
hotel?
What if it was your wife or kid?
Always look at things in context.
What provokes hate also matters.
have a look at:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/apartheid_in_cuba.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

>Ever wonder why the Cuban exiles have never been truly accepted in US or
>Puertorican society? Now you know.

I think that "US" society is so varied that in certain areas immigrants (be
they Cuban or Mexican) have been more than accepted.
If you look at "US society" today the Latin input is being more and more
recognized.

Castro doesn't just humiliate prisoners. He humilates the people of Cuba.
see: www.cubaverdad.net

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:vbWhg.212750$***@blueberry.telenet-ops.be...
>
> Castro doesn't just humiliate prisoners. He humilates the people of Cuba.

Which ones, the cowards who left or the more than 11 million that choose to
stay?



--
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[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:448836ed$0$26851$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:vbWhg.212750$***@blueberry.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> Castro doesn't just humiliate prisoners. He humiliates the people of
>> Cuba.
>
> Which ones, the cowards who left or the more than 11 million that choose
> to stay?

You mean the ones that were able to leave or the ones that are stuck behind
the "Castro sea wall"?
If 11 million chose to stay then Castro would not need these laws:
The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país, "illegal
exit from country." Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217, those caught
trying to leave the country without the permission of the government can be
fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have not used violence and
up to eight years if force or intimidation is used. In cases where passenger
vessels or airplanes are hijacked, the charge is usually one of piratería,
"piracy." Under Penal Code Article 117, piracy carries a penalty of up to 20
years imprisonment, or a possible sentence of death if there is loss of life
or risk to the lives of others.25

In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
trying to leave the island without permission. In 1994, illegal exit
prisoners were thought to constitute the largest category of political
prisoners in Cuba. In 1990 alone, there were 335 inmates convicted of
illegal exit serving time in a single prison in Havana, the Combinado del
Este.26

http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

540,000 entered in the US visa lottery.
That shows the "11 million" did not chose to stay. The are forced to stay.
Never compare countries that respect human rights like freedom of movement
with others.
Always looks at the facts and the context.

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:uPYhg.471689$A%***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:448836ed$0$26851$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>> news:vbWhg.212750$***@blueberry.telenet-ops.be...
>>>
>>> Castro doesn't just humiliate prisoners. He humiliates the people of
>>> Cuba.
>>
>> Which ones, the cowards who left or the more than 11 million that choose
>> to stay?
>
> You mean the ones that were able to leave or the ones that are stuck
> behind the "Castro sea wall"?

The ones who choose to stay, and without whom the Castro government would
not be possible. The ones you and your kind choose to make their lives
miserable for the sake of hatred?

You can come up with all the excuses, rationalizations and warped right-wing
fascist sources as you like. The fact is, you will not achieve your goal, no
matter how hard you try or how hard you lie.



--
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[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:44885ae5$0$26844$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:uPYhg.471689$A%***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:448836ed$0$26851$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>> news:vbWhg.212750$***@blueberry.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>
>>>> Castro doesn't just humiliate prisoners. He humiliates the people of
>>>> Cuba.
>>>
>>> Which ones, the cowards who left or the more than 11 million that choose
>>> to stay?
>>
>> You mean the ones that were able to leave or the ones that are stuck
>> behind the "Castro sea wall"?
>
> The ones who choose to stay, and without whom the Castro government would
> not be possible

You mean like the slave labor in Myanmar?

>. The ones you and your kind choose to make their lives miserable for the
>sake of hatred?

Their lives are made miserable by a regime that has created hunger and
absence of freedom.
If you truly want to end their misery you should support those that want to
end the abusive regime.

> You can come up with all the excuses,

I don't need to.
I just come up with facts.

see: www.cubaverdad.net

With all due respect: why don't you address any of these facts?

If 11 million chose to stay then Castro would not need these laws:
The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país, "illegal
exit from country." Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217, those caught
trying to leave the country without the permission of the government can be
fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have not used violence and
up to eight years if force or intimidation is used. In cases where passenger
vessels or airplanes are hijacked, the charge is usually one of piratería,
"piracy." Under Penal Code Article 117, piracy carries a penalty of up to 20
years imprisonment, or a possible sentence of death if there is loss of life
or risk to the lives of others.25

In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
trying to leave the island without permission. In 1994, illegal exit
prisoners were thought to constitute the largest category of political
prisoners in Cuba. In 1990 alone, there were 335 inmates convicted of
illegal exit serving time in a single prison in Havana, the Combinado del
Este.26

http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

540,000 entered in the US visa lottery.
That shows the "11 million" did not chose to stay. The are forced to stay.
Never compare countries that respect human rights like freedom of movement
with others.
Always looks at the facts and the context.

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:_K%hg.471970$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
>
> With all due respect: why don't you address any of these facts?

Because you can prove anything you want if you make up and pick and choose
your "facts". That's why.

> If 11 million chose to stay then Castro would not need these laws...

If 11 million choose to go there would not be any need for laws that give
Cubans citizenship by mere virtue of touching US land.

> The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país, "illegal
> exit from country."

So does the US Code.

> Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217, those caught
> trying to leave the country without the permission of the government can
> be
> fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have not used violence
> and
> up to eight years if force or intimidation is used.

Under US code those caught trying to go to Cuba without permission of the
government can also be fined and imprisoned.

> In cases where passenger
> vessels or airplanes are hijacked, the charge is usually one of piratería,
> "piracy." Under Penal Code Article 117, piracy carries a penalty of up to
> 20
> years imprisonment, or a possible sentence of death if there is loss of
> life
> or risk to the lives of others.25

No different than here, except that in the US cuban hatemongering hijackers
and murderers are given special treatment.

> In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
> trying to leave the island without permission.

In the past three decades the prison population in the US has increased to
damn near 10% of the population. On top of that, the US administration
violates both the constitution and US law on a whim and indefinitely
incarcerate people in Guantanamo without so much as filing a single charge.

Like I said, anyone can prove anything if you pick and choose your facts.
You should try mustering some self-respect and admitting the true nature of
your hatred. It will make you a better man and a better member of the human
race.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:44888ae7$0$26827$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:_K%hg.471970$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>>
>> With all due respect: why don't you address any of these facts?
>
> Because you can prove anything you want if you make up

Nope.
I don't "make up" anything.
Please tell me where you think I "made up" anything.

>> If 11 million chose to stay then Castro would not need these laws...
>
> If 11 million choose to go there would not be any need for laws that give
> Cubans citizenship by mere virtue of touching US land.

The first has nothing to do with the second.
The issue is simple: do the 11 million Cubans on the island actually want to
be there or would they prefer to emigrate if the could.
More than 540,000 applied for the US Visa lottery.
A very strong indication, no?

>> The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país,
>> "illegal
>> exit from country."
>
> So does the US Code.

Nope.
NOWHERE in any US law there ANY prohibition for NY citizen to leave the
country.

>> Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217, those caught
>> trying to leave the country without the permission of the government can
>> be
>> fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have not used violence
>> and
>> up to eight years if force or intimidation is used.
>
> Under US code those caught trying to go to

So you mean they can leave and re-enter as they want but may face sanctions
if they have been to Cuba, Myanmar or North Korea?

>> In cases where passenger
>> vessels or airplanes are hijacked, the charge is usually one of
>> piratería,
>> "piracy." Under Penal Code Article 117, piracy carries a penalty of up to
>> 20
>> years imprisonment, or a possible sentence of death if there is loss of
>> life
>> or risk to the lives of others.25
>
> No different than here, except that in the US cuban hatemongering
> hijackers and murderers are given special treatment.

Very different as people can leave the USA without having to hijack
anything.
They just get on a plane. Not Cubans. they need a special permit (PVE or
PRE) to leave the country.
That "carta blanca" is like a "get out of jail" card, but not for free.
In Cuba you van only leave with a special exit permit or in an "illegal"
way.

>> In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
>> trying to leave the island without permission.
>
> In the past three decades the prison population

but none for "trying to leave" the country, no?
That is the difference.
With all due respect; address the issues instead of finding excuses to
attack the US.

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:Bv1ig.472127$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>

First this:

> Nope.
> I don't "make up" anything.
> Please tell me where you think I "made up" anything.
>
>>> If 11 million chose to stay then Castro would not need these laws...
>>
>> If 11 million choose to go there would not be any need for laws that give
>> Cubans citizenship by mere virtue of touching US land.
>
> The first has nothing to do with the second.

And there it is. I didn't even have to look more than 6 sentences down.

> The issue is simple: do the 11 million Cubans on the island actually want
> to be there or would they prefer to emigrate if the could.

You make up your facts that you wish all 11 do want to leave. And yet, there
they are.

> More than 540,000 applied for the US Visa lottery. A very strong
> indication, no?

And Cuba is #39 on the list of per capita visa lottery winners. Even
stronger indication.

>
>>> The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país,
>>> "illegal
>>> exit from country."
>>
>> So does the US Code.
>
> Nope.
> NOWHERE in any US law there ANY prohibition for NY citizen to leave the
> country.

Yup. Sure does. Penalizing you before or after is the same thing.

>> No different than here, except that in the US cuban hatemongering
>> hijackers and murderers are given special treatment.
>
> Very different as people can leave the USA without having to hijack
> anything.

No different in Cuba.

>>> In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
>>> trying to leave the island without permission.
>>
>> In the past three decades the prison population
>
> but none for "trying to leave" the country, no?

Nah, most of them are for much milder stuff like doing drugs.

> With all due respect; address the issues instead of finding excuses to
> attack the US.

Find the real issues then and stop making up excuses.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:4489af3b$0$26799$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:Bv1ig.472127$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>
> First this:

What?

>> Nope.
>> I don't "make up" anything.
>> Please tell me where you think I "made up" anything.
>>
>>>> If 11 million chose to stay then Castro would not need these laws...
>>>
>>> If 11 million choose to go there would not be any need for laws that
>>> give Cubans citizenship by mere virtue of touching US land.
>>
>> The first has nothing to do with the second.
>
> And there it is. I didn't even have to look more than 6 sentences down.

so?

>> The issue is simple: do the 11 million Cubans on the island actually want
>> to be there or would they prefer to emigrate if the could.
>
> You make up your facts that you wish all 11 do want to leave. And yet,
> there they are.

I don't need to "amke up" facts.
I can quote them.

>> More than 540,000 applied for the US Visa lottery. A very strong
>> indication, no?
>
> And Cuba is #39 on the list of per capita visa lottery winners. Even
> stronger indication.


You mean for the "regular" international lottery.
Indeed.
Cubans also massively take part in that.

>>>> The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país,
>>>> "illegal
>>>> exit from country."
>>>
>>> So does the US Code.
>>
>> Nope.
>> NOWHERE in any US law there ANY prohibition for NY citizen to leave the
>> country.
>
> Yup. Sure does. Penalizing you before or after is the same thing.

Nope.
Cuba is "penalizing" them, it just keeps them locked in.
US citizens can freely leave and re-enter.
They can face sanctions for violating other las, but the can do it as is
proven even in this group (SCC)

>>> No different than here, except that in the US cuban hatemongering
>>> hijackers and murderers are given special treatment.
>>
>> Very different as people can leave the USA without having to hijack
>> anything.
>
> No different in Cuba.

False.
Cubans can only leave the country to go to any other country with a special
exit visa.
The US has no such requirement.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

>>>> In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
>>>> trying to leave the island without permission.
>>>
>>> In the past three decades the prison population
>>
>> but none for "trying to leave" the country, no?
>
> Nah, most of them are for much milder stuff like doing drugs.

So "doing drugs" is a "milder" offense that exercising yout God given human
rights.
Your credibility is zero.

>> With all due respect; address the issues instead of finding excuses to
>> attack the US.
>
> Find the real issues then and stop making up excuses.

Real issue: violation of article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
More violations:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/universal_declaration_of_human_rights.htm

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:S3kig.473558$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:4489af3b$0$26799$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>> news:Bv1ig.472127$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>
>>
>> First this:
>
> What?
>
>>> Nope.
>>> I don't "make up" anything.
>>> Please tell me where you think I "made up" anything.
>>>
>>>>> If 11 million chose to stay then Castro would not need these laws...
>>>>
>>>> If 11 million choose to go there would not be any need for laws that
>>>> give Cubans citizenship by mere virtue of touching US land.
>>>
>>> The first has nothing to do with the second.
>>
>> And there it is. I didn't even have to look more than 6 sentences down.
>
> so?

So there.

>>> The issue is simple: do the 11 million Cubans on the island actually
>>> want to be there or would they prefer to emigrate if the could.
>>
>> You make up your facts that you wish all 11 do want to leave. And yet,
>> there they are.
>
> I don't need to "amke up" facts.
> I can quote them.

You can't quote facts when it comes to the intentions of 11 million people.
You can only quote your _opinion_.

You do know the difference between opinion and fact, don'tcha?


>>> More than 540,000 applied for the US Visa lottery. A very strong
>>> indication, no?
>>
>> And Cuba is #39 on the list of per capita visa lottery winners. Even
>> stronger indication.
>
> You mean for the "regular" international lottery.
> Indeed. Cubans also massively take part in that.

Ah, now it's that one too. *8)

>
>>>>> The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país,
>>>>> "illegal
>>>>> exit from country."
>>>>
>>>> So does the US Code.
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>> NOWHERE in any US law there ANY prohibition for NY citizen to leave the
>>> country.
>>
>> Yup. Sure does. Penalizing you before or after is the same thing.
>
> Nope.

Refer to the sentence above regarding opinion and fact. The penalties for
travel to Cuba are fact, not opinion. The penalties are just as bad before
or after. Fact, not opinion. That you think they are not is _opinion_.

>>>> No different than here, except that in the US cuban hatemongering
>>>> hijackers and murderers are given special treatment.
>>>
>>> Very different as people can leave the USA without having to hijack
>>> anything.
>>
>> No different in Cuba.
>
> False.
> Cubans can only leave the country to go to any other country with a
> special exit visa.
> The US has no such requirement.
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

Wrong. Cubans can leave the country by many other means of transportation
other than hijacking.

>>>>> In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned
>>>>> for
>>>>> trying to leave the island without permission.
>>>>
>>>> In the past three decades the prison population
>>>
>>> but none for "trying to leave" the country, no?
>>
>> Nah, most of them are for much milder stuff like doing drugs.
>
> So "doing drugs" is a "milder" offense that exercising yout God given
> human rights.
> Your credibility is zero.

Refer above to opinion vs. fact. Si quieres te lo traduzco si no lo
entiendes. Your opinion of my credibility is irrelevant to me. And that's
fact, not opinion.

>>> With all due respect; address the issues instead of finding excuses to
>>> attack the US.
>>
>> Find the real issues then and stop making up excuses.
>
> Real issue: violation of article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human
> Rights

That will only be a real issue when the US decides it will live by the same
rules it pretends to want to impose on others. Start with UN resolutions it
routinely uses to wipe its ass.

What's that you were saying about credibility, kiddo?

Next!



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:4489fe1e$0$26773$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:S3kig.473558$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:4489af3b$0$26799$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>> news:Bv1ig.472127$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>
>>>
>>> First this:
>>
>> What?
>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>> I don't "make up" anything.
>>>> Please tell me where you think I "made up" anything.
>>>>
>>>>>> If 11 million chose to stay then Castro would not need these laws...
>>>>>
>>>>> If 11 million choose to go there would not be any need for laws that
>>>>> give Cubans citizenship by mere virtue of touching US land.
>>>>
>>>> The first has nothing to do with the second.
>>>
>>> And there it is. I didn't even have to look more than 6 sentences down.
>>
>> so?
>
> So there.

You are not making any sense.

>>>> The issue is simple: do the 11 million Cubans on the island actually
>>>> want to be there or would they prefer to emigrate if the could.
>>>
>>> You make up your facts that you wish all 11 do want to leave. And yet,
>>> there they are.
>>
>> I don't need to "make up" facts.
>> I can quote them.
>
> You can't quote facts when it comes to the intentions of 11 million
> people.

I can when it comes to 540,000 that have applied for the lottery.

> You can only quote your _opinion_.

I can also quote the abusive laws that show the intent of the government.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
And I can quote lots of press articles:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/migration.php
> You do know the difference between opinion and fact, don'tcha?

Yep.
A lot better than you it seems.

>>>> More than 540,000 applied for the US Visa lottery. A very strong
>>>> indication, no?
>>>
>>> And Cuba is #39 on the list of per capita visa lottery winners. Even
>>> stronger indication.
>>
>> You mean for the "regular" international lottery.
>> Indeed. Cubans also massively take part in that.
>
> Ah, now it's that one too. *8)

Do you deny that the ranking you gave - if it is correct - is for the
international visa lottery that is open to all and not for the other special
visa lottery only open to Cubans.
Two lotteries. Two chances massively taken up by Cubans.

>>>>>> The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país,
>>>>>> "illegal
>>>>>> exit from country."
>>>>>
>>>>> So does the US Code.
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>> NOWHERE in any US law there ANY prohibition for NY citizen to leave the
>>>> country.
>>>
>>> Yup. Sure does. Penalizing you before or after is the same thing.
>>
>> Nope.
>
> Refer to the sentence above regarding opinion and fact.

Indeed:
- the fact is that pre-emptive denial of exit of a country to ANY country
whatsoever is diffetent from sanctions for violating a law on going to a
certain country.
- the (false) opinion: both are the same

> The penalties for travel to Cuba are fact, not opinion. The penalties are
> just as bad before or after.

False.
The fact is that the "penalty" in Cuba is the complete inability to go
ANYWHERE without being pre-approved.
The sanction in the US is a "post factum" sentence that can impose a fine
but that in NO WAY stops the person from going to any place at all.
US citizens can leave as the want and even go to places as they want. In the
case of a few exceptional cases the faces sanctions if the have been to a
certain country.
Cub's is a "blanket travel ban". The US has a fine system after the facts.
Those are the facts.
The effects are completely different as well.
See: http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

>>>>> No different than here, except that in the US cuban hatemongering
>>>>> hijackers and murderers are given special treatment.
>>>>
>>>> Very different as people can leave the USA without having to hijack
>>>> anything.
>>>
>>> No different in Cuba.
>>
>> False.
>> Cubans can only leave the country to go to any other country with a
>> special exit visa.
>> The US has no such requirement.
>> http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
>
> Wrong. Cubans can leave the country by many other means of transportation
> other than hijacking.

They can climb on rafts they have made themselves.
They can hide in the technical areas of planes (and die on the way)
They can hide in cargo boxes

But they can NOT freely leave their country.
ANY exit has to have the "cart blanca" (PVE or PRE). The permit to travel
abroad.
Beyond illegal means ALL travel is completely controlled by the Cuban state.

>>>>>> In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> trying to leave the island without permission.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the past three decades the prison population
>>>>
>>>> but none for "trying to leave" the country, no?
>>>
>>> Nah, most of them are for much milder stuff like doing drugs.
>>
>> So "doing drugs" is a "milder" offense that exercising yout God given
>> human rights.
>> Your credibility is zero.
>
> Refer above to opinion

OK.
That is your opinion.
Not mine.
I feel that the wholesale violation of human rights of 11 million people is
a worse crime than smoking dope.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/universal_declaration_of_human_rights.htm

>>>> With all due respect; address the issues instead of finding excuses to
>>>> attack the US.
>>>
>>> Find the real issues then and stop making up excuses.
>>
>> Real issue: violation of article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human
>> Rights
>
> That will only be a real issue when the US decides it will live by the
> same rules it pretends to want to impose on others.

Nope.
The US is one state in this world.
Castro's respect of human rights is not conditional on the US or for that
matter all countries in the world 100% respecting them.
The respect of human rights is an obligation imposed on all state
individually independent and regardless of the actions of others.
The killings by Hitler don't excuse those of Stalin.
What Bush does is no license for Castro to violate human rights.

> What's that you were saying about credibility, kiddo?

It says a lot of your complete disdain of human rights, "chump".

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:Mhxig.474603$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
>>
>> So there.
>
> You are not making any sense.

Try to keep up.

>> You can't quote facts when it comes to the intentions of 11 million
>> people.
>
> I can when it comes to 540,000 that have applied for the lottery.

Doesn't work that way except in overactive imaginations. If it did, you
could extrapolate that the entire population of Mexico wants to move north,
and as we all know, that's just as absurd as your conclusion regarding the
population of Cuba.

>> You can only quote your _opinion_.
>
> I can also quote the abusive laws that show the intent of the government.

And it still remains your opinion of the laws, based on your personal
agenda.

> Do you deny that the ranking you gave - if it is correct - is for the
> international visa lottery that is open to all and not for the other
> special visa lottery only open to Cubans.

I don't need to deny anything. :)

> Indeed - the fact is that pre-emptive denial of exit of a country to ANY
> country whatsoever is diffetent from sanctions for violating a law on
> going to a certain country. - the (false) opinion: both are the same

Try to keep up. The denial is not the issue, the issue is the penalty. Of
course, that was your initial point, if you want to change your mind now and
do another 180, feel free to do so. I'll just sit here and watch. With the
popcorn.

> The fact is that the "penalty" in Cuba is the complete inability to go
> ANYWHERE without being pre-approved.

Oh, please. The same applies to US citizens when trying to travel to many
countries without a visa. Tons of Americans violate the travel ban by going
somewhere else they are allowed to go and then heading to where they really
want to go. My son's best friend's grandmother did just that when she left
Cuba and then travelled to Puerto Rico.

> The sanction in the US is a "post factum" sentence that can impose a fine
> but that in NO WAY stops the person from going to any place at all.

Funny, I seem to remember that every week of the year Cubans arrive in
places like Mona Island. Must not be as good a travel ban as you think it
is.

> They can climb on rafts they have made themselves.

Among other means, yes. Same as in Africa, the Dominican Republic, Asia,
many, many other places.

> But they can NOT freely leave their country.

Neither can many other people, for many other reasons, in many, many other
countries.

> The US is one state in this world.

Not only wrong, but absurd. The US is probably the one most hypocritical
state in the world when it comes to the United Nations. And that is taken as
fact by many, many more people than those who share your opinion of the
Cuban government.

> Castro's respect of human rights is not conditional on the US or for that
> matter all countries in the world 100% respecting them.

Guess what?

Bush's respect of human rights is not conditional on the US or for that
matter all countries in the world 100% respecting them.

> What Bush does is no license for Castro to violate human rights.

But it does remove whatever moral authority Bush may think he has to
crticize Castro, and also removes yours. What was that you were saying about
credibility?

You must be a member of the "Do as I say, not as I do" religious faction. :)

Next!



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:448ac297$0$26753$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:Mhxig.474603$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>>>
>>> So there.
>>
>> You are not making any sense.
>
> Try to keep up.

No problem in the real world.

>>> You can't quote facts when it comes to the intentions of 11 million
>>> people.
>>
>> I can when it comes to 540,000 that have applied for the lottery.
>
> Doesn't work that way except in overactive imaginations.

No need. The 540,000 applications are a hard fact.
So are the 125,000 of Mariel.

>>> You can only quote your _opinion_.
>>
>> I can also quote the abusive laws that show the intent of the government.
>
> And it still remains your opinion of the laws,

Nope.
Just read the laws.
The show the show the intent of the government.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
And I can quote lots of press articles:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/migration.php

>> Do you deny that the ranking you gave - if it is correct - is for the
>> international visa lottery that is open to all and not for the other
>> special visa lottery only open to Cubans.
>

Thanks.
So we have large participartion in both lotteries showing a desire to leave.
Actually: Cuba is 34 in this page. About 59,399 winners.
That on top of the 540,000.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_us_vis_lot_win_percap-visa-lottery-winners-per-capita&int=-1

>> Indeed - the fact is that pre-emptive denial of exit of a country to ANY
>> country whatsoever is different from sanctions for violating a law on
>> going to a certain country. - the (false) opinion: both are the same
>
> Try to keep up.

Way ahead of you.

> The denial is not the issue, the issue is the penalty.

False.
The denial is the issue.

> Of course, that was your initial point,

as denial is the part that violates human rights and ensures "100%" failure
to leave versus a fine when you get back (and are caught).

>if you want to change your mind now and do another 180,

Nope.
I was always on the same line.
You tried to twist the argument.

>> The fact is that the "penalty" in Cuba is the complete inability to go
>> ANYWHERE without being pre-approved.
>
> Oh, please. The same applies to US citizens when trying to travel to many
> countries without a visa.

You mean an entry visa, not an exit visa.
The fact whether a US citizens can go to country X depends on whether he
gets an entry visa to country X from it's government (if no visa waver
agreement is in place).
It does NOT depend on getting an "exit visa" from the US government.

> Tons of Americans violate the travel ban by going somewhere else they are
> allowed to go

Thanks foes showing that unlike in Cuba there is no real impediment to US
citizens to leave their country to go anywhere.
There also are no impediments to returning to their country.
In Cuba both exiting AND entering are subject to specific visa required of
all Cubans.
You just have exposed you own lies.
Thanks.
You have confirmed the data on this page.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

>> The sanction in the US is a "post factum" sentence that can impose a fine
>> but that in NO WAY stops the person from going to any place at all.
>
> Funny, I seem to remember that every week of the year Cubans arrive in
> places like Mona Island. Must not be as good a travel ban as you think it
> is.

You mean that people still succeed in leaving the country illegally on rafts
risking their lives.
True.
Sometimes they get shot at though:
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/04/3-weeks-after-fleeing-return-to-cuba.html
and sometimes women and children are killed trying to leave the country.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/13_de_marzo.htm
Nothing to do with leaving the country by hopping on a plane as US citizens
can.
Just read up:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/balsero.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/migration.php

>> They can climb on rafts they have made themselves.
>
> Among other means, yes.

You mean like the lottery?
Get real.
Only people with a valid exit visas can leave Cuba.

>Same as in Africa, the Dominican Republic, Asia, many, many other places.

They do get on rafts, but not because they are not allowed to leave their
countries.
Just because they want to be smuggled in to other countries.
that is what makes the issue of Cuba different: for Cubans it is illegal to
leave their country without a government permit irrespective of their
immigrant status in the country they are going to.
533 people with a valid US entry visas are stuck in Cuba as they are not
allowed to leave.
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/03/533-immigrants-in-limbo.html
If the government just lets them go they don't need to be smuggled in to the
US.
They can just walk across the border with a valid visa.
that exposes you fallacy again.

>> But they can NOT freely leave their country.
>
> Neither can many other people, for many other reasons,

but not for the sole reason their covernment does not allow them out like in
Cuba.

>> The US is one state in this world.
>
> Not only wrong, but absurd

Nope.
it is a fact.

>> Castro's respect of human rights is not conditional on the US or for that
>> matter all countries in the world 100% respecting them.
>
> Guess what?
>
> Bush's respect of human rights is not conditional

on anything so is Castro's.
Bush can't violate human right because Castro does. Castro can't violate
human rights because he claims Bush does.
Both have to respect human rights.
That is the short and the long of it.

>> What Bush does is no license for Castro to violate human rights.
>
> But it does remove whatever moral authority Bush may think he has to
> crticize Castro

I don't care about Bush criticism of Castro and whether he has a moral right
to do so.
I look at the content of the criticism and look at the facts.
If Bush says that Castro violates human rights he is right as con,firmed by
these 100 reports from human rights organizations.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm
The fact that Bush isn't "squeaky clean" does not mean that Castro isn't
dirty as hell.
This is not about Bush vs. Castro or US vs. Cuba. That is a narrow dogmatic
and ethnocentric lie.
This is about Castro vs. human rights.
And I agree that a condemnation from Vadslav Havel carries more moral weight
as I also agree that a lot more people will listen to Bush and Havel than to
me.
But I find that we all should condemn the Castro regime for its abuses of
human rights as they are a well documented fact.
If you don't like Bush's message, listen to Havel's or read the 100 HR
reports.
But your dislike of Bush is no reason for anyone to condone Castro's abuses.

See: www.cubaverdad.net

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:a_Vig.476603$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:448ac297$0$26753$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>> news:Mhxig.474603$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> So there.
>>>
>>> You are not making any sense.
>>
>> Try to keep up.
>
> No problem in the real world.

So make the move. :)

> No need. The 540,000 applications are a hard fact.
> So are the 125,000 of Mariel.

And that's the _only_ fact you have. :)

> Nope.
> Just read the laws.

Yup, it's still your opinion. :)

> So we have large participartion in both lotteries showing a desire to
> leave.

Again, opinion. A larger percentage of Puerto Ricans have left PR than
Cubans have left Cuba. In fact, there are more Puertoricans on the mainland
than on the island. Does that mean all Puerto Ricans living on the island
want to leave? Hardly. As I said, you have nothing but OPINIONS.

>> The denial is not the issue, the issue is the penalty.
>
> False.
> The denial is the issue.

Ok, sonny, you go on believing that. Enjoy. :)

>
> I was always on the same line.

The one going in circles, sure. :)

> You mean an entry visa, not an exit visa.

So, according to your warped logic, a locked door is a locked door
regardless of which side of the door you're on. I'm sure even you can figure
that out.

> Thanks foes showing that unlike in Cuba there is no real impediment to US
> citizens to leave their country to go anywhere.

And as we all know, there are a zillion Cuban exiles in Miami, proving
exactly the same thing.

> In Cuba both exiting AND entering are subject to specific visa required of
> all Cubans.

Same as in the US. You do know that if you don't have a visa for a country
requiring one you will not be allowed to get on the airplane, right?

Educate yourself, kiddo.

> You mean that people still succeed in leaving the country illegally on
> rafts risking their lives.

Just like US citizens visit cuba illegally.

> They do get on rafts, but not because they are not allowed to leave their
> countries.

LOL! Try to get on an airplane from Morocco bound for Europe without a visa,
or even a passport.

> I don't care about Bush criticism of Castro and whether he has a moral
> right to do so.

And here we expose another nasty little truth of yours. Little by little the
true agenda comes out.

> If Bush says that Castro violates human rights he is right as con,firmed
> by these 100 reports from human rights organizations.

And Bush still has no moral authority to make such criticism. Period.

> The fact that Bush isn't "squeaky clean" does not mean that Castro isn't
> dirty as hell.

Oooh, dirty tail of agenda coming out again! Watch out! Hahahahaa!

> This is not about Bush vs. Castro or US vs. Cuba. That is a narrow
> dogmatic and ethnocentric lie.
> This is about Castro vs. human rights.

Quitate las gringolas nene, que te ves absurdo.

> But your dislike of Bush is no reason for anyone to condone Castro's
> abuses.

Neither is your dislike of Castro any reason to think you can speak with
anything resembling authority on the thoughts of 11 million people.

Next!



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:448c2eca$0$32626$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:a_Vig.476603$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:448ac297$0$26753$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>> news:Mhxig.474603$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So there.
>>>>
>>>> You are not making any sense.
>>>
>>> Try to keep up.
>>
>> No problem in the real world.
>
> So make the move. :)
>
>> No need. The 540,000 applications are a hard fact.
>> So are the 125,000 of Mariel.
>
> And that's the _only_ fact you have. :)

A lot more than you have.
But not the only facts.
Here is some data on those that died trying to leave illegally:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/balsero.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/migration.php

On the other lottery:
Actually: Cuba is 34 in this page. About 59,399 winners.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_us_vis_lot_win_percap-visa-lottery-winners-per-capita&int=-1


>
>> Nope.
>> Just read the laws.
>
> Yup, it's still your opinion. :)

Nope.
Still evedident to all.
But then that is why you snip the links, no?
The show the show the intent of the government.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
And I can quote lots of press articles:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/migration.php

>> So we have large participartion in both lotteries showing a desire to
>> leave.
>
> Again, opinion.

Nope.
Again confirmed facts.

>>> The denial is not the issue, the issue is the penalty.
>>
>> False.
>> The denial is the issue.
>
> Ok, sonny, you go on believing that. Enjoy. :)

Well "boy".
Denial of human rights that all should enjoy is indeed the issue.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/universal_declaration_of_human_rights.htm

>> I was always on the same line.
>
> The one going in circles, sure. :)

Nope.
A straight line notwithstanding your desperate attempts at diverting the
thread.

>> You mean an entry visa, not an exit visa.
>
> So, according to your warped logic, a locked door is a locked door


Nope.
According to my basic logic a "locked door" to get out of Cuba is a locked
door.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
There is no "locked door" to get out of the US.
Very simple if one is honest.
The fact whether a US citizens can go to country X depends on whether he
gets an entry visa to country X from it's government (if no visa waver
agreement is in place).
It does NOT depend on getting an "exit visa" from the US government.

>> Thanks for showing that unlike in Cuba there is no real impediment to US
>> citizens to leave their country to go anywhere.
>
> And as we all know, there are a zillion Cuban exiles in Miami, proving
> exactly the same thing.

the ones that left before or made it nothwithsatnding the Cuban repression
you mean.
I think the actuall figure is not a "zillion", but 1.5 million of which 60%
in Florida - Miami.

>> In Cuba both exiting AND entering are subject to specific visa required
>> of all Cubans.
>
> Same as in the US.

Nope.
You can even go to Canada without a passport.
NO US authority asks for an exit visa when you leave the US.
Another of your desperate lies exposed.

> You do know that if you don't have a visa for a country requiring one you
> will not be allowed to get on the airplane, right?

but no exit visa needed for being allowed to leave the US, no?
And: in lots of cases filling out a tourist card on the plane is all US
travelers need to do.
But then again;: that refers to entry requirements from the third
(destination) country. NOT to exit requirements from the country you leave.

> Educate yourself, kiddo.

Better educated than you will ever be.

>> You mean that people still succeed in leaving the country illegally on
>> rafts risking their lives.
>
> Just like US citizens visit cuba illegally.
>
>> They do get on rafts, but not because they are not allowed to leave their
>> countries.
>
> LOL! Try to get on an airplane from Morocco bound for Europe without a
> visa, or even a passport.

again.
Nothing to do with Moroccan law. People can leave as they wish.
The fact that airline companies that are held responsible for repatriating
those that do not have a valid entry visa - and that they therefore check
the entry visas - has nothing to do with the fundamental right to leave the
country.
Again your lie is exposed.
The issue in Cuba is: people are not allowed to leave EVEN IF they have
valid entry visas for third countries.
533 people with a valid US entry visas are stuck in Cuba as they are not
allowed to leave.
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/03/533-immigrants-in-limbo.html

>> I don't care about Bush criticism of Castro and whether he has a moral
>> right to do so.
>
> And here we expose another nasty little truth of yours. Little by little
> the true agenda comes out.

Yep. A true agende of respect of human rights.
Not "nasty" at all.
Just the ruth: I demand respect of human rights.

>> If Bush says that Castro violates human rights he is right as con,firmed
>> by these 100 reports from human rights organizations.
>
> And Bush still has no moral authority to make such criticism. Period.

but then Amnesty International, HRW, ... and other HR organizations are, no?
Here are links to 100 reports criticizing Castro's record.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm

>> The fact that Bush isn't "squeaky clean" does not mean that Castro isn't
>> dirty as hell.
>
> Oooh, dirty tail of agenda coming out again!

Yep.
The "dirt" of Castro's human rights abuses as documented here:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm

>> This is not about Bush vs. Castro or US vs. Cuba. That is a narrow
>> dogmatic and ethnocentric lie.
>> This is about Castro vs. human rights.
>
> Quitate las gringolas nene, que te ves absurd.

Nope.
the "absurd" one are you..
In Line with Castro propaganda you want to present this as a US-Cuba issue.
It isn't.
It is a human rights issue.
No more no less.
It isn't "bilateral" it is multilateral.


>> But your dislike of Bush is no reason for anyone to condone Castro's
>> abuses.
>
> Neither is your dislike of Castro any reason to think you can speak with
> anything resembling authority on the thoughts of 11 million people.

But then I can show that 540,000 have applied for visas in the "Cuban only
lottery, that 59,000 won visas to the US in the international lottery, that
1.5 million live in the US, that thousands died at sea trying to flee the
country and that Castro is universally condemned for his abuses of human
rights, no?

Do you deny that Castro violates human rights?

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:ppYig.476801$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> A lot more than you have.

Of course you do, it's much easier to fabricate and rationalize than analyze
and present the truth. But you knew that already, didn't you? :)

>> Yup, it's still your opinion. :)
>
> Nope.
> Still evedident to all.

Still evedidizing? :)

> Well "boy".
> Denial of human rights that all should enjoy is indeed the issue.

Only when it serves your agenda, isn't it?

You see, in the 25 years that I've been on the net and national info
services, the likes of you come and go all the time. People like you show up
in a flurry of bullshit, and disappear in a puff of smoke. You all use the
exact same techniques, twisting facts and only paying attention to what you
think people should pay attention, ignoring anything and everything that
doesn't fit your agenda, and responding with prepubescent one-liners like
"Nope." or "False.". We even have names for you -- "bigot" and "demagogue".
Look them up in the dictionary.

get a life, sonny. this one ain't working for you.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:449440d1$0$9859$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:ppYig.476801$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> A lot more than you have.
>
> Of course you do, it's much easier to fabricate and rationalize than
> analyze and present the truth

and it is even a lot easier to take the facts, look at them rationally,
analyze them and tell the truth like I do.

> But you knew that already, didn't you? :)

Yep.
That is why I always quote the facts.
The one you snip.

Here is some data on those that died trying to leave illegally:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/balsero.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/migration.php

On the other lottery:
Actually: Cuba is 34 in this page. About 59,399 winners.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_us_vis_lot_win_percap-visa-lottery-winners-per-capita&int=-1


>>> Yup, it's still your opinion. :)
>>
>> Nope.
>> Still evedident to all.
>
> Still evedidizing? :)

Nope, just quoting facts.


>> Well "boy".
>> Denial of human rights that all should enjoy is indeed the issue.
>
> Only when it serves your agenda, isn't it?

Nope.
My agenda is defending human rights.
I am no hypocrite like you.
Don't measure me by your own moral faults, "chump".

What the "chump" snipped in despair:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

The issue in Cuba is: people are not allowed to leave EVEN IF they have
valid entry visas for third countries.
533 people with a valid US entry visas are stuck in Cuba as they are not
allowed to leave.
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/03/533-immigrants-in-limbo.html

Here are links to 100 reports criticizing Castro's record.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:Vs_kg.487839$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> Yep.

You go, boy. I have better things to do than banter with hatemongers (a.k.a.
cheap entertainment). byebye.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:44956466$0$9917$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:Vs_kg.487839$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> Yep.
>
> You go, boy. I have better things to do than banter with hatemongers

Poor "chump".
I am not the "hatemonger", you are.
But then your hypocrisy has been shown over and over again in this thread.
Run with your tail between your legs if you want.
Your problem. Not mine.
The facts are and remain clear.

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:9Belg.489281$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:44956466$0$9917$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>> news:Vs_kg.487839$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>
>>> Yep.
>>
>> You go, boy. I have better things to do than banter with hatemongers
>
> Poor "chump".
> I am not the "hatemonger", you are.

Yes, you are a pitiful hatemonger, period. And a particularly disgusting one
who measures the performance of human rights by one ruler if it fits your
agenda, and by another when it doesn't. You're no different than the
disgusting hypocrits who say they oppose gay marriage because it goes
against the "sacred institution of marriage" but have never lifted a finger
to tell their legislators they want divorces outlawed, or the politicians
who justify wars and the deaths of hundreds of thousands on the basis of
"national interest," but when it comes to defending true moral values, they
stick their heads in their assholes so they can hear nothing but the sound
of their own bullshit churning inside them. You can respond with as many
one-liners as your tepid mind can come up with -- it will never change the
fact that you are nothing but a two-bit demagogue, and a pisspoor one at
that.

Cuba will never become what you want it to be, kiddo, just like Vietnam,
China and many other places where there are systems of government different
from the mess in the United States, where the people can't even directly
choose a leader, and where politicians routinely ignore their constituents
and do nothing more than what their special interest contributors pay them
to do. DEAL WITH IT, because if there is one thing that right wingers like
you will never be able to defeat, it is TIME. TIME will destroy every single
goal you hold dear to your hate-petrified hearts.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:44958be2$0$9868$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:9Belg.489281$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:44956466$0$9917$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>> news:Vs_kg.487839$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>
>>>> Yep.
>>>
>>> You go, boy. I have better things to do than banter with hatemongers
>>
>> Poor "chump".
>> I am not the "hatemonger", you are.
>
> Yes, you are a pitiful hatemonger, period.

again confusing facts and opinion, actually fiction, I see

> And a particularly disgusting one who measures the performance of human
> rights by one ruler if it fits your agenda,

Nope.
I measure all aspects of human rights by the same "yardstick".
I just don't have an agenda like you to use different measures for different
cases?

> Cuba will never become what you want it to be, kiddo,

Yes it will "boy".
cuba will be a democracy again one day.
A democracy with freedom of speech. One that respects human rights.
Not thanks to the likes of you. That is sure.

On Cuba see www.cubaverdad.net

PL

[Barry Schier]

PL wrote:
(Name-calling exchange deleted)
> >
> > Yes, you are a pitiful hatemonger, period.
>
> again confusing facts and opinion, actually fiction, I see
>
> > And a particularly disgusting one who measures the performance of human
> > rights by one ruler if it fits your agenda,
>
> Nope.
> I measure all aspects of human rights by the same "yardstick".
> I just don't have an agenda like you to use different measures for different
> cases?
>

Using the yardstick of how negatiively news reflects on Havana and how
positvely in reflects on Washington is indded a consistent "measure"
and shows that PL can indeed claim to "measure all aspects of human
rights by the same ''yardstick'"

How inronic it is that PL, Belgian Bureau Chief (Apoligist) for
Apologetics for U.S. Foreign Policy, claims that Cuba excludes
"objective" people from information gathering --- thereby making Cuban
health statistics "suspect" or unbelievable as Cuba government
"propaganda," even when confirmed by many other independent
organizations (e.g., the Pan-American Health Organization / PAHO) --
yet, has a different reaction to the regular, continuing keeping of
secrets by Washington, especially what is really going on in its
Guatanamo Bay "detention facility."

For bonus irony, the author of the L.A. Times piece reprinted below is
the opposite of friendly towards the Cuban Revolution, as anything
containing her byline with "Cuba" mentioned in the article shows (e.g.,
through Web searches); attacking the Cuban Revolution is part of her
job as Caribbean Bureau Chief for The Los Angeles Times.

-- Barry Schier


Kicked out of Gitmo

A [Los Angeles] Times reporter's struggle to get the truth about
America's island prison just got tougher.
By Carol J. Williams,
Carol J. Williams is the Caribbean bureau chief for The Times.
June 18, 2006


IN THE BEST of times, covering Guantanamo means wrangling with a
Kafkaesque bureaucracy, with logistics so nonsensical that they turn
two hours of reporting into an 18-hour day, with hostile escorts who
seem to think you're in league with Al Qaeda, and with the dispiriting
reality that you're sure to encounter more iguanas than war-on-terror
suspects.

In the worst of times - this past week, for example - those
quotidian discomforts can be compounded by an invasion of mating crabs
skittering into your dormitory, a Pentagon power play that muzzles
already reluctant sources and an unceremonious expulsion to Miami on a
military plane, safety-belted onto whatever seat is available. In this
case, that seat was the toilet.

I ended up on that plane, on that seat, because of a baffling move by
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's office, in which the only three
newspaper reporters who managed to surmount Pentagon obstacles to
covering the first deaths at Guantanamo were ordered off the base
Wednesday. Rumsfeld's office said the decision was made "to be fair and
impartial" to the rest of the media, which the government had refused
to let in.

Rumsfeld's gatekeepers have long made clear that they view outside
scrutiny of the detention operations as a danger to the Bush
administration's secretive and often criticized campaign to
indefinitely detain "enemy combatants." But this time, their actions
seemed counterproductive because booting out the Los Angeles Times,
Miami Herald and Charlotte (N.C.) Observer only provoked fresh demands
to learn what the government is hiding.

Those of us cleared to cover the prison and war-crimes tribunal learned
long ago that there will be a hard-fought battle for every factlet.
When unexpected news breaks, like the suicides, the Pentagon's
knee-jerk reflex to thwart coverage reminds me of how Communist
officials used to organize Cold War-era propaganda trips for Moscow
correspondents but then pull the plug when embarrassing realities
intruded.

"You ask a lot of questions!" said Emily Witt, a 25-year-old
first-timer from Miami's alternative weekly New Times, when she
observed my scattershot strategy for interrogating officials during a
rare "inside the wire" tour of the prison camps last month.

What little we learn often comes to light by accident, through casual
slips-of-the-lips by military doctors, lawyers and jailers innocently
oblivious of their superiors' preference for spin. A battery of
questions to the prison hospital commander - who for security reasons
can't be identified - elicited that prisoners are force-fed through a
nasal-gastric tube if they refuse to eat for three days and that 1,000
pills a day are dispensed to treat detainee ailments, anxiety and
depression.

Those details became relevant when two prisoners attempted suicide May
18 by consuming hoarded prescription medications. Likewise, we
understood why a hunger strike early this month began with 89 prisoners
but swiftly fell off to a few defiant handfuls with the onset of
painful and undignified force-feeding. During an interview last month
with the new detention center commander, Rear Adm. Harry B. Harris Jr.,
we queried him on plans for handling detainee deaths - a theoretical
exercise until two Saudis and a Yemeni hung themselves June 10.

I've been to Guantanamo six times. It was during my first visit in
January 2005 that I learned how expressions of polite interest in
minute details can elicit some of the most startling revelations. As
Naval Hospital commander Capt. John Edmundson showed off the 48-bed
prison annex, for instance, I asked, apropos of nothing, if the
facility had ever been at or near capacity.

"Only during the mass-hanging incident," the Navy doctor replied,
provoking audible gasps and horrified expressions among the public
affairs minders and op-sec - operational security - watchdogs in
the entourage, none of whom were particularly pleased with the
disclosure that 23 prisoners had attempted simultaneously to hang
themselves with torn bed sheets in late 2003.

But such revelations are infrequent, and the investment of time to
obtain them is grossly disproportionate. On a typical day at
Guantanamo, reporters rise at dawn, head for breakfast in a mess hall
at 6 a.m., then at 7 a.m. cross the often storm-tossed bay to the main
naval base in small boats, clutching our laptop bags and life
preservers as waves crash over the bow and drench us.

We make the return crossing at around 9 p.m., after hours in the bowls
of military alphabet soup, writing our stories in JIBs - joint
information bureaus that are simple rooms with folding chairs, tables
and telephones - while we cover OMC or JTF (the Office of Military
Commissions that runs the tribunals and the Joint Task Force that
oversees the prison). Back at the CBQ - the combined bachelors'
quarters - we sleep in a dorm-like complex on the virtually abandoned
leeward side of Guantanamo Bay that this month suffered an invasion of
crabs the size of your head, coupled and clattering across the floors,
halls and sidewalks. Their leggy orange spawn slithered under doors and
divebombed us from the ceiling.

Despite the shroud of secrecy and the at-times surrealistic backdrop,
it is the rare glimpse into the war-on-terror workings that make
assignments at Guantanamo a source of professional satisfaction.

Under ground rules we must agree to if we want access to the base,
journalists may not have any contact with detainees, who are removed
from sight at all but one camp during media tours. Only at the compound
for the most compliant prisoners can we even make eye contact.

That's why coverage of the tribunal sessions have been so important in
putting a human face on the prisoners, whose names and nationalities
were only disclosed in March under a court order following an
Associated Press legal challenge.

Court appearances by the 10 men charged with war crimes have offered us
our first meaningful independent view of detainees in the prison's 4
1/2 years. Some seem to be committed holy warriors whose detention has
only fueled their hatred of Americans. Others contend that they are
innocent of any attack on U.S. forces, just unfortunates swept up in
the post-9/11 fervor.

Meanwhile, 450 others have been held for years without charges or legal
recourse. Their indefinite detention to keep them off the global
terrorism battlefields feels like a Muslim version of the World War II
Japanese American internment.

It is the opportunity to shed light into the dark corners of the
antiterrorism campaign that inspires us to surmount the obstacles and
obfuscations. And it is the thwarting of that mission with moves like
our expulsion that make us all the more determined to question, probe
and illuminate the actions of our government being waged in the
country's name

{End of Williams article}

> > Cuba will never become what you want it to be, kiddo,
>
> Yes it will "boy".
> cuba will be a democracy again one day.
> A democracy with freedom of speech. One that respects human rights.
> Not thanks to the likes of you. That is sure.
>
> On Cuba see www.cubaverdad.net
>
> PL

[PL]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
soc.culture.cuba,alt.activism,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.socialism,soc.culture.puerto-rico
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: "The Pentagon's move to omit a ban on prisoner humiliation from
the basic guide to soldier conduct faces strong State Dept. opposition"
(L.A. Times)


>
>
>
>
>
> PL wrote:
> (Name-calling exchange deleted)
>> >
>> > Yes, you are a pitiful hatemonger, period.
>>
>> again confusing facts and opinion, actually fiction, I see
>>
>> > And a particularly disgusting one who measures the performance of human
>> > rights by one ruler if it fits your agenda,
>>
>> Nope.
>> I measure all aspects of human rights by the same "yardstick".
>> I just don't have an agenda like you to use different measures for
>> different
>> cases?
>>
>
> Using the yardstick of how negatiively news reflects on Havana

The fact that the news "reflects" badly on Havana is just the result of the
actions of the Cuban regime.
More violations of human rights: more condemnation.
A copy of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights with links to Castro's
violations
http://www.cubaverdad.net/universal_declaration_of_human_rights.htm
Links to over 100 human righst reports on Cuba:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm
It is Castro that creates the news, Barry. It is the international press and
independent reporters that report it (bypassing the control of your favorite
Stalinist dictator).
http://www.cubaverdad.net/stalinist_system.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm

> How inronic it is that PL, Belgian Bureau Chief

Lies and innuendo as usual to replace facts he Stalinist Barry?
Here are some facts about you.
You support:
- repression
http://www.cubaverdad.net/systematic_repression_of_dissent.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/cuba_repressive_machinery.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/repression.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/represion.php
- violations of the freedom of speech of Cubans
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/freedom_of_speech.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/internet.php
-violations of the freedom of movement of Cubans
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/freedom_of_movement.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/balsero.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/migration.php
- violations of other human rights in Cuba
http://www.cubaverdad.net/universal_declaration_of_human_rights.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/human_rights.php
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/derechos_humanos.php
- torture by the Cuban regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/torture_in_cuba.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/a_cuban_punishment_cell.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/torture.php
- a totalitarian system
http://www.cubaverdad.net/totalitarian_system.htm
- repressive laws that violate human rights
http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm
- imprisonment of peaceful opponents of the regime of Fidel Castro
http://www.cubaverdad.net/dissidents.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/75_imprisoned_in_march_2003.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/black_spring.php
- the destruction of thousands of life in acts of democide and politicide
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/13_de_marzo.htm


> thereby making Cuban
> health statistics "suspect" or unbelievable as Cuba government
> "propaganda," even when confirmed by many other independent
> organizations (e.g., the Pan-American Health Organization / PAHO) --

have NEVER been able to verify ANYTHING and while these reports are
available.

On the other hand:
"People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including international
health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
Government
policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban physicians
have confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is
politically
influenced (e.g., if dengue were declared wiped out, then physicians could
report the disease only as influenza-like symptoms). "


"WHO and the PanAmerican Health
Organization (WHO's Regional Office for the Western Hemisphere) cannot
report
to the world without clearance from the Cuban government."


See: www.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390


Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit
of the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University of Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent
three months in Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers
on Cuban health care. Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was
only able to get hold of the official statistical data and find them
not especially trustworthy.


http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html


(link broken)


Some reality:


Sociedad
Un falso primer lugar


Sin la existencia de fuentes independientes, ¿cómo los organismos
internacionales pueden certificar los 'logros' cubanos en salud y nutrición?


http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/06/un-falso-primer-lugar.html

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:3zvlg.491064$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> The fact that the news "reflects" badly on Havana is just the result of
> the actions of the Cuban regime.

You wish, boy. :)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:449b1754$0$9829$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:3zvlg.491064$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> The fact that the news "reflects" badly on Havana is just the result of
>> the actions of the Cuban regime.
>
> You wish, boy. :)

No, I see.

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:2WOmg.498329$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:449b1754$0$9829$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>> news:3zvlg.491064$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>
>>> The fact that the news "reflects" badly on Havana is just the result of
>>> the actions of the Cuban regime.
>>
>> You wish, boy. :)
>
> No, I see.

Nope.
But you keep repeating that and soon enough even your shrink will be
convinced.

<watch the response. this one's totally predictable> :)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:449d3252$0$9828$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:2WOmg.498329$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:449b1754$0$9829$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>> news:3zvlg.491064$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>
>>>> The fact that the news "reflects" badly on Havana is just the result of
>>>> the actions of the Cuban regime.
>>>
>>> You wish, boy. :)
>>
>> No, I see.
>
> Nope.
> But you keep repeating that and soon enough even your shrink will be
> convinced.

Yep, because unlike you I don't need a shrink.
I hope yours can help you with your delusions.

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:6Kbng.500405$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:449d3252$0$9828$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>> news:2WOmg.498329$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>
>>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>>> news:449b1754$0$9829$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>>> news:3zvlg.491064$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>>
>>>>> The fact that the news "reflects" badly on Havana is just the result
>>>>> of the actions of the Cuban regime.
>>>>
>>>> You wish, boy. :)
>>>
>>> No, I see.
>>
>> Nope.
>> But you keep repeating that and soon enough even your shrink will be
>> convinced.
>
> Yep, because unlike you I don't need a shrink.
> I hope yours can help you with your delusions.

<see what I mean, folks? Bigoted demagogues are sooo predictable...> :)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:449d3b3e$0$9883$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:6Kbng.500405$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:449d3252$0$9828$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>> news:2WOmg.498329$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>
>>>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:449b1754$0$9829$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>>>> news:3zvlg.491064$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact that the news "reflects" badly on Havana is just the result
>>>>>> of the actions of the Cuban regime.
>>>>>
>>>>> You wish, boy. :)
>>>>
>>>> No, I see.
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>> But you keep repeating that and soon enough even your shrink will be
>>> convinced.
>>
>> Yep, because unlike you I don't need a shrink.
>> I hope yours can help you with your delusions.
>
> <see what I mean, folks? Bigoted demagogues are sooo predictable...> :)

You mean people don't take your insults and shut up as you want them to I
guess.
you are not Castro and we are not in Cuba.
You can't control what I say.
get a life.

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:***@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Using the yardstick of how negatiively news reflects on Havana and how...

What is even more ironic is that this PL putz so believes in his own BS that
he won't even put his name behind his words. Just another rabble-rousing
coward, like the majority of the schmucks in Miami, who rail against
"communists" but have no problem buying everything from China. :)




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:449b17b7$0$9838$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:***@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Using the yardstick of how negatiively news reflects on Havana and how...
>
> What is even more ironic is that this PL putz so believes in his own BS

actually the data comes from the international press (sources from the
Americas over Europe to Africa and Asia)

> that he won't even put his name behind his words.

I put my own name behind my own words.
I leave the names of the journalists that wrote the stories on their work.
Too hard for you to understand?

> Just another rabble-rousing coward, like the majority of the schmucks in
> Miami, who rail against "communists" but have no problem buying everything
> from China. :)

insults just show your lack of arguments.

PL

[krp]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:449b17b7$0$9838$***@free.teranews.com...

> Just another rabble-rousing coward, like the majority of the schmucks in
> Miami, who rail against "communists" but have no problem buying everything
> from China. :)


Tell me something, Juan, do you think China in 2006 is Communist?

P.S. I don't live in Miami.

[Juan Jimenez]

" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:5tbng.2585$***@trnddc04...
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:449b17b7$0$9838$***@free.teranews.com...
>
>> Just another rabble-rousing coward, like the majority of the schmucks in
>> Miami, who rail against "communists" but have no problem buying
>> everything from China. :)
>
>
> Tell me something, Juan, do you think China in 2006 is Communist?
>
> P.S. I don't live in Miami.

China has a communist government. Vietnam has a communist government. Both
societies have been transformed because the policy towards those countries
was not based on hatred and racism.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[krp]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:449d3b17$0$9803$***@free.teranews.com...

>>> Just another rabble-rousing coward, like the majority of the schmucks in
>>> Miami, who rail against "communists" but have no problem buying
>>> everything from China. :)
>>
>>
>> Tell me something, Juan, do you think China in 2006 is Communist?
>>
>> P.S. I don't live in Miami.

> China has a communist government. Vietnam has a communist government. Both
> societies have been transformed because the policy towards those countries
> was not based on hatred and racism.

Don't let me be the first to break this to you - BOTH China and Viet Nam
have free market capitalism going on. The government can call itself
anything it wants. So what of North Korea and Cuba?

[Pedro]

Mr. Krap:

Even Cuba had to go through a special period were some economic areas were
opened to private investment (tourism, oil exploration, agriculture,
restaurants, etc.). In fact, China's economy is even more planned than the
Cuban economy right now. Just because they accept foreign investment does
not mean they have stopped doing central planning, which is what
distiguishes a capitalist and socialist economy. That is why the U.S.
feels comfortable economically since they know that the economic future of
China, for now, is intricately woven with the US market, and the Chinese
plan to keep it this way until they can develop their information sector
and their RD sectors.

Remember who is the largest provider of wireless service in China . . .
yes, the Red People's Army, just like in Cuba where las FAR also have
investments.

Ask the Chicago boys.


On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 08:02:30 -0700, krp <***@verizon.net> wrote:

>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:449d3b17$0$9803$***@free.teranews.com...
>
>>>> Just another rabble-rousing coward, like the majority of the schmucks
>>>> in
>>>> Miami, who rail against "communists" but have no problem buying
>>>> everything from China. :)
>>>
>>>
>>> Tell me something, Juan, do you think China in 2006 is Communist?
>>>
>>> P.S. I don't live in Miami.
>
>> China has a communist government. Vietnam has a communist government.
>> Both
>> societies have been transformed because the policy towards those
>> countries
>> was not based on hatred and racism.
>
> Don't let me be the first to break this to you - BOTH China and Viet
> Nam
> have free market capitalism going on. The government can call itself
> anything it wants. So what of North Korea and Cuba?
>
>



--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[PL]

"Pedro" <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org> wrote in message
news:***@cx214697-a...
> Mr. Krap:
>
> Even Cuba had to go through a special period were some economic areas were
> opened to private investment

and now Castro is truning back verythihing but "joint ventures" within the
state capitalist system, no?

> (tourism, oil exploration, agriculture, restaurants, etc.).

Most "paladarese are closed. Santiago (the second city of Cuba) has 1 left.

> In fact, China's economy is even more planned than the Cuban economy
> right now.

Nope.
Investors can act on their own.
In Cuba that state is always involved.

> Just because they accept foreign investment does not mean they have
> stopped doing central planning,

China went from "central planning" to tacid approval.
In Cuba the state capitalist system controls all.

PL

> On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 08:02:30 -0700, krp <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:449d3b17$0$9803$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>>>>> Just another rabble-rousing coward, like the majority of the schmucks
>>>>> in
>>>>> Miami, who rail against "communists" but have no problem buying
>>>>> everything from China. :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tell me something, Juan, do you think China in 2006 is Communist?
>>>>
>>>> P.S. I don't live in Miami.
>>
>>> China has a communist government. Vietnam has a communist government.
>>> Both
>>> societies have been transformed because the policy towards those
>>> countries
>>> was not based on hatred and racism.
>>
>> Don't let me be the first to break this to you - BOTH China and Viet
>> Nam
>> have free market capitalism going on. The government can call itself
>> anything it wants. So what of North Korea and Cuba?
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Pedro]

On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 10:23:36 -0700, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:

>
> "Pedro" <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org> wrote in message
> news:***@cx214697-a...
>> Mr. Krap:
>>
>> Even Cuba had to go through a special period were some economic areas
>> were
>> opened to private investment
>
> and now Castro is truning back verythihing but "joint ventures" within
> the
> state capitalist system, no?

The only thing "truning" is your gusano brain. Hey so what, what is worng
with "joint ventures" especially if it means that you keep the 51% of
control, transfer technology and make sure the management includes Cubanos
de verdad (no copias como tu). Lenin did, this is as socialist as the
hammer and the sickle.


>
>> (tourism, oil exploration, agriculture, restaurants, etc.).
>
> Most "paladarese are closed. Santiago (the second city of Cuba) has 1
> left.


I guess I was dreming the last time I ate in one, very recently.



>
>> In fact, China's economy is even more planned than the Cuban economy
>> right now.
>
> Nope.
> Investors can act on their own.


In your dream, one Indonesian was fined because of violation of Chinese
Labor laws.


By the way, where do you get your information, from KKK newspaper? I would
suggest you read a bit more and post less.




> --
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[PL]

"Pedro" <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org> wrote in message
news:***@cx214697-a...
> On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 10:23:36 -0700, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Pedro" <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org> wrote in message
>> news:***@cx214697-a...
>>> Mr. Krap:
>>>
>>> Even Cuba had to go through a special period were some economic areas
>>> were
>>> opened to private investment
>>
>> and now Castro is truning back verythihing but "joint ventures" within
>> the
>> state capitalist system, no?
>
> The only thing "truning" is your gusano brain. Hey so what, what is worng
> with "joint ventures" especially if it means that you keep the 51% of
> control, transfer technology and make sure the management includes Cubanos
> de verdad (no copias como tu). Lenin did, this is as socialist as the
> hammer and the sickle.

Thanks for confirming that there is no "openness" to private investment and
that Cuba just is a state capitalist country.

>>> (tourism, oil exploration, agriculture, restaurants, etc.).
>>
>> Most "paladares" are closed. Santiago (the second city of Cuba) has 1
>> left.
>
>
> I guess I was dreming the last time I ate in one, very recently.

"dreming"? Can you tell me what that means.
If you feel that you can try to ridicule other people over typos you better
not make them yourself hypocrite.
But then thanks for the "jibe" and the subsequent error. It shows what you
are all about.
I said there was one (legal one) left in Santiago.
So maybe you were awake (if you meant "dreaming").

>>> In fact, China's economy is even more planned than the Cuban economy
>>> right now.
>>
>> Nope.
>> Investors can act on their own.
>
>
> In your dream, one Indonesian was fined because of violation of Chinese
> Labor laws.

as are many Chines I guess.
that doesn't mean that the Chinese state controls everything (unlike Cuba).

> By the way, where do you get your information, from KKK newspaper?

Nope.
From the Chinese an Vietnamese news agencies over newspapers in Europe,
Latin America, Africa, India, ...
You should get your "sniffer" out of Granma for a change.

Some background:

Cuba closing down scores of foreign businesses
Economy endangered, some believe, by driving out non-native investors
By Gary Marx
Chicago Tribune
Originally published July 3, 2005

HAVANA - In a further sign of economic retrenchment, Cuban officials have
closed scores of foreign businesses that were welcomed here a decade ago to
bail out the nation's faltering economy.
Some of Europe's largest companies formed joint ventures or other
arrangements with Cuba's state-run enterprises, including Swiss food giant
Nestle, cigarette producer British American Tobacco and Spanish
hotel-management giant Sol Melia.
Sherritt International of Canada also has invested heavily in boosting
Cuba's oil, nickel and energy production.
But many smaller companies also took advantage of the economic opening in
the 1990s, importing everything from toys to spark plugs to hospital
equipment.
Diplomats and business people say it is primarily these small and medium
operators who have been asked to leave Cuba as Fidel Castro and other
officials express confidence the island's economy has recovered sufficiently
to withstand the companies' departure.
"There is a very clear rethinking of foreign investment," said one
businessman, who like others spoke on the condition he not be identified.
"The Cuban market is not open for foreign investment except in very specific
areas, and the Cubans only want to deal now with large and important foreign
firms," he said.
Several executives said that only about a half-dozen of the more than 350
foreign firms once based in Cuba's duty-free zones are still operating.
Investment that once streamed into the country has slowed significantly.
Although Cuban officials have suggested that some foreign businesses were
gouging the country and fueling corruption, the crackdown also is aimed at
limiting the influence of foreigners on Cuban society, according to
diplomats and other experts.
Many executives live in large, state-owned homes, send their children to one
of the handful of private schools in Havana and belong to Club Havana, an
exclusive beach resort closed to most Cubans.
Their lifestyle contrasts sharply with the island's 11 million residents,
who struggle with frequent blackouts, poor public transportation and
salaries that average about $12 a month.
"It's creating an elite that is outside the control of the state," said a
second businessman. "Castro doesn't like that. It creates a two-tier
society. It's ideological contamination."
Rather than reaching out to European companies, Castro is strengthening
economic ties with Venezuela, an important ally now providing Cuba 90,000
barrels of discounted oil daily.
Cuban officials also are counting on an economic lift from China, which has
promised to invest hundreds of millions of dollars to boost nickel
production, a key Cuban export.
"For the Cubans, having foreign capital and companies operating is not
something that's inherently good but was a way to help them solve a set of
problems from the 1990s," said Philip Peters, a Cuba expert at the Lexington
Institute, a Washington area think tank.
"They put the reforms in place and got to a point where they feel they have
reversed the economy," he said. "When it came to those reforms, Castro was
holding his nose and now he is scaling back."
But some diplomats and business people do not share Castro's optimism about
Cuba's economic future. Local manufacturing and other activities remain
severely hampered by a dearth of investment and an unmotivated workforce.
Cuba also does not have the hundreds of millions of dollars needed to repair
its deteriorating electrical grid, water system and other infrastructure.
By pushing foreign investors out, Cuba risks permanently damaging its
international reputation even though it may need those investors should the
island suffer another economic collapse.
The U.S. economic embargo prohibits American companies from operating in
Cuba, though an exemption to the embargo allows U.S. food and agricultural
sales to the island.
"For the last 10 years, Cuba has carefully built up an image as a difficult
but willing partner," said the second executive. "The danger for Cuba is
that it's really frightening people off. It will be much harder to get them
back."
The downsizing of the foreign business community is part of an ongoing
effort by Cuban officials to recentralize the economy and concentrate
foreign investment in several key areas, including tourism, mining and oil
exploration.
Tourism and nickel are Cuba's most important sources of hard currency, along
with the hundreds of millions of dollars Cuban exiles send annually to
family members on the island.
Spanish and other multinational companies also are helping Cuba explore
offshore for oil, an expensive proposition that has yet to yield a major
discovery.
It was the collapse of the Soviet Union and the East bloc - Cuba's main
trading partners and patrons - that sent the island's economy into a free
fall in the early 1990s.
To lure capital and technical expertise, Cuba not only opened its doors to
Western firms but legalized the U.S. dollar's circulation, liberalized food
production and allowed some Cubans to practice trades and open restaurants
and other businesses.
But the number of self-employed Cubans has dropped from a peak of 209,000 in
1996 to 153,000 last year, according to Peters.
Cuban officials also have taken the dollar out of circulation, tightened
controls over state enterprises doing business with foreigners and sharply
increased foreign business costs by revaluating the local currency.
The number of joint ventures between Cuban and foreign companies has fallen
from about 400 at the end of 2002 to about 300 today, experts say.
Still, Cuban officials say the value of exports from mixed enterprises has
actually increased in the past few years, pushed upward by the high
international price for nickel.
"The Cubans say that there are less 'foreign' businesses doing more
business," said one expert who tracks foreign business trends in Cuba.
That offers little comfort to executives from Britain, Italy, Mexico, Spain
and other countries that have either been forced to close shop or say that
they are being squeezed by Cuban officials looking for a reason to send them
packing.
Several businessmen complained that Cuban authorities have recently visited
their offices unannounced, poring over their books searching for accounting
and tax irregularities.
Foreign executives said it is difficult to make money in Cuba, where the
bureaucracy is maddening, fixed costs such as electricity, telephone and
other services are exorbitant, and payment delays by state entities can last
months or years.
Still, many business people have become hooked on Cuba's tropical lifestyle
and relish the challenge of trying to make a buck in one of the world's last
communist nations. Some have experience in prewar Iraq and North Korea.
Other executives said they were drawn here by the expectation that the Cuban
economy would soon adopt free-market reforms like those in China. That
expectation has vanished.
"There is no change and there will be no change," said the first
businessman.


The Chicago Tribune is a Tribune Publishing newspaper.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16525


PL

[Barry Schier]

PL wrote:
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:448836ed$0$26851$***@free.teranews.com...
> >
> > "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> > news:vbWhg.212750$***@blueberry.telenet-ops.be...
> >>
> >> Castro doesn't just humiliate prisoners. He humiliates the people of
> >> Cuba.
> >
> > Which ones, the cowards who left or the more than 11 million that choose
> > to stay?
>
> You mean the ones that were able to leave or the ones that are stuck behind
> the "Castro sea wall"?
> If 11 million chose to stay then Castro would not need these laws:
> The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país, "illegal
> exit from country." Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217, those caught
> trying to leave the country without the permission of the government can be
> fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have not used violence and
> up to eight years if force or intimidation is used. In cases where passenger
> vessels or airplanes are hijacked, the charge is usually one of piratería,
> "piracy." Under Penal Code Article 117, piracy carries a penalty of up to 20
> years imprisonment, or a possible sentence of death if there is loss of life
> or risk to the lives of others.25
>
> In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
> trying to leave the island without permission. In 1994, illegal exit
> prisoners were thought to constitute the largest category of political
> prisoners in Cuba. In 1990 alone, there were 335 inmates convicted of
> illegal exit serving time in a single prison in Havana, the Combinado del
> Este.26
>
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
>
> 540,000 entered in the US visa lottery.
> That shows the "11 million" did not chose to stay. The are forced to stay.
> Never compare countries that respect human rights like freedom of movement
> with others.
> Always looks at the facts and the context.
>
> PL

Yes, not 100% of all Cubans "ch[o]ose to stay." Granting PL's claim a
slightly more weight by using 540,000, i.e., the number during the
PEAK year for visa lottery applications (which would more accurately
statistically described as 510,000 plus/minus 30,000 per year) and
making a round-off error in his favor, 5% of Cubans choose to leave.
In New York, the city in which I was raised, there are 1 million Puerto
Ricans; the population of the entire island of Puerto Rico is about 4
million. Although I frequently cite statistics stating that Cuba
(2%-5%)


Contrast would-be imigrants from Cuba to the U..S.A. to everyone else
from other "Third World" countries -- who are denied employment,
benefits, subject to deportation, etc., (and, if not undocumented,
having to pay exorbitant "fees" and fill out much cumbersome paperwork
each year for "work permits" and other papers -- including citizenship
papers, should they decide to apply -- to maintain their "legal" status
and sitll be subject to racist, instead of judicially-mandated,
discrimination). Under the Cuban Adjustment Act (and before that under
different rules) Cubans immigrants to the U.S.A. are on the "fast
track" to a "green card" and accelerated citizenship eligibility. (In
several of the Internet discusison groups, there are those who object
to the "red carpet" extended to Cuban would-be immigrants with barely
masked xenophobic phrases, with particular venom directed at those
Cubans' guaranteed receipt of welfare and other social benefits. I
take the Marxist position that those benefits are not "special
privileges" for the Cuban immigrants, but rather ENTITLEMENTS that
should be extended to all. The mural on the wall of (what had been)
the building serving as headquarters of Pathfinder Press (publisher of
works by/about Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, Malcolm X, and other
revolutionaries) which depiicted the portraits, ideas, etc. of the
subjects that it published featured both famous and unknown people
holding a giant multilingual banner: "For a world without borders
...!!"

That leaves 95% (i.e., 100% - 5%) of Cubans who do NOT choose to leave.



With the U.S. embargo adding to the hardships already historically
imposed upon Cuba, there are those who wish to leave -- from a poor
country to the world's richest. country (i.e., U.S.A., as measured by
G.N.P., not moral wealth). The myth that the streets of El Norte are
paved with gold is widespread in many countries, even without a barrage
of propaganda from the U.S.A., ever transmitted through "indepedent
jounralists." The reaity of exenophobia discrimination against
immigrants is most often learned through experience.

[PL]

"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:***@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

(snip)
> Yes, not 100% of all Cubans "ch[o]ose to stay."

thanks for confirming that Castro keeps a lot of people in Cuba that want to
get out.

> Granting PL's claim
Nope.
US lottery data.
Not "my claim".
I don't make stuff up like you do Barry.

>a slightly more weight by using 540,000, i.e., the number during the
> PEAK year for visa lottery applications

and no indication whatsoever that they would want to withdraw their
application., no?
No "peak" at all.
Note that Cubans tend to leave the country and then bring over their family.
If each of the 540,000 tries to bring over 3 persons that means that 20% of
the Cubans population wants to go to the US, no?
Now that is without those that want to go to Europe, no?

Cuba's repressive laws on emigration:
The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país, "illegal
exit from country." Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217, those caught
trying to leave the country without the permission of the government can be
fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have not used violence and
up to eight years if force or intimidation is used. In cases where passenger
vessels or airplanes are hijacked, the charge is usually one of piratería,
"piracy." Under Penal Code Article 117, piracy carries a penalty of up to 20
years imprisonment, or a possible sentence of death if there is loss of life
or risk to the lives of others.25

In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
trying to leave the island without permission. In 1994, illegal exit
prisoners were thought to constitute the largest category of political
prisoners in Cuba. In 1990 alone, there were 335 inmates convicted of
illegal exit serving time in a single prison in Havana, the Combinado del
Este.26

http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

PL

[Barry Schier]

PL wrote:
> "Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:***@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Granting PL's claim
> Nope.
> US lottery data.
> Not "my claim".
> I don't make stuff up like you do Barry.
>
> >a slightly more weight by using 540,000, i.e., the number during the
> > PEAK year for visa lottery applications
>
> and no indication whatsoever that they would want to withdraw their
> application., no?
> No "peak" at all.

(In the original message, the above section followed PL's response now
in the section below; the order of the arguments has no impact on the
arguments made.)

Cuba's population is (according to the CIA, whose word the opponents of
the Cuban Revolution accept as gospel when it attacks Cuba) 11,382,820
(July 2006 estimate in Internet version of CIA World Factbook).

The number of applicants for the "lottery" for visas to immigrate from
Cuba to the U.S. is published every year and varies slightly. I cited
both ends of the range. Since there's not that much statistcal
difference between the average and the maximum ("peak") and minimum
number of applicants. Assuming that every single one of the
480,000-540,000 Cuban applicants for lottery for a visa for immigration
to U.S. has entered with the intentions of jumping onto the plane or
boat to the U.S., that makes 4%-5% of the Cuban population who choose
to leave. In order to avoid the red herring has thrown to divert
attention from the fact that in either case there's not even a
difference of 1% in the percentage between (480,000 / 11,382,820 = 4.2%
vs. (540,000 / 11,382,820 = ~4.7%, which I'have rounded up to 5% for
the benefit of PL.), let just say both PL and I agree that about
half-million applicants apply for the "lottery" for visas to leave Cuba
for the U.S., give or take, I'll "give" rather than "take", and proceed
in making my comments with the assumption that there will be 540,000
applicants.


> (snip)
> > Yes, not 100% of all Cubans "ch[o]ose to stay."
>
> thanks for confirming that Castro keeps a lot of people in Cuba that want to
> get out.
>

No. I have stated that it is not 100% of Cubans who choose to stay.
Deduct 5% (i.e., the "lotery" applicants as well as those who file to
immigrate to countries other than the U.S.) from 100% (i.e., Cuba's
entire poplation): 95% of Cubans remain (mathematically and poltically
speaking).

> Note that Cubans tend to leave the country and then bring over their family.
> If each of the 540,000 tries to bring over 3 persons that means that 20% of
> the Cuban population wants to go to the US, no?

(This matter to be addressed separately in my next message on this
matter.)

> Now that is without those that want to go to Europe, no?
>

I don't have statistics on the numbers of Cubans who emigrated to
Belgium. PL (as spouse of one of them) is more likely to know that
number (and whether that total could fill a soccer stadium). The
combined total of Cubans living in Puerto Rico (a U.S. colony),
Venezuela, Spain, and other countries with sizable numbers of Cubans is
dwarfed by Cubans in Dade County alone.

-- Barry Schier

(Remainder of PL's message appears in PL's message to which this
message is a response.)

[krp]

"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:***@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Cuba's population is (according to the CIA, whose word the opponents of
> the Cuban Revolution accept as gospel when it attacks Cuba) 11,382,820
> (July 2006 estimate in Internet version of CIA World Factbook).

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

> The number of applicants for the "lottery" for visas to immigrate from
> Cuba to the U.S. is published every year and varies slightly. I cited
> both ends of the range. Since there's not that much statistcal
> difference between the average and the maximum ("peak") and minimum
> number of applicants. Assuming that every single one of the
> 480,000-540,000 Cuban applicants for lottery for a visa for immigration
> to U.S. has entered with the intentions of jumping onto the plane or
> boat to the U.S., that makes 4%-5% of the Cuban population who choose
> to leave.

You ASS/u/me that the roughly 500,000 Cubans who seek to move to the
United States are the ONLY Cubans who would desire to go. I'd suggest to you
that isn't a safe assumption, but I am 100% positive you will anyway because
it suits your hardline ideology which always controls your arguments, Barry.
There are MANY reasons the number isn't larger. Let's start with the COSTS.
It costs more money than most Cubans have. There is also the fact that most
people also know that there is almost no chance of being selected in the
lottery. I'd also tell you that almost NONE of the "Balseros" had filed for
the lottery. And your arguments might make more intellectual sense IF the US
were the ONLY country Cubans wanted to leave to. Of course - it isn't- and
you kn ow that - which makes your arguments dishonest.

> In order to avoid the red herring has thrown to divert
> attention from the fact that in either case there's not even a
> difference of 1% in the percentage between (480,000 / 11,382,820 = 4.2%
> vs. (540,000 / 11,382,820 = ~4.7%, which I'have rounded up to 5% for
> the benefit of PL.), let just say both PL and I agree that about
> half-million applicants apply for the "lottery" for visas to leave Cuba
> for the U.S., give or take, I'll "give" rather than "take", and proceed
> in making my comments with the assumption that there will be 540,000
> applicants.

Round it to 500,000 which is the statistical "average" over the past 2
decades.

> No. I have stated that it is not 100% of Cubans who choose to stay.
> Deduct 5% (i.e., the "lotery" applicants as well as those who file to
> immigrate to countries other than the U.S.) from 100% (i.e., Cuba's
> entire poplation): 95% of Cubans remain (mathematically and poltically
> speaking).

Dishonest Barry. What of the people who apply to Canada? Australia? The
UK? The Netherlands? Poland? Romania? Russia? Korea? (SOUTH) France?
Austria? Germany? Got some numbers there Barry? Roughly another
500,000....... Just the truth here of the ABCs. "ANYWHERE BUT CUBA!


>> Now that is without those that want to go to Europe, no?

> I don't have statistics on the numbers of Cubans who emigrated to
> Belgium. PL (as spouse of one of them) is more likely to know that
> number (and whether that total could fill a soccer stadium). The
> combined total of Cubans living in Puerto Rico (a U.S. colony),
> Venezuela, Spain, and other countries with sizable numbers of Cubans is
> dwarfed by Cubans in Dade County alone.

Wrong!

[PL]

"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:***@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> PL wrote:
>> "Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:***@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > Granting PL's claim
>> Nope.
>> US lottery data.
>> Not "my claim".
>> I don't make stuff up like you do Barry.
>>
>> >a slightly more weight by using 540,000, i.e., the number during the
>> > PEAK year for visa lottery applications
>>
>> and no indication whatsoever that they would want to withdraw their
>> application., no?
>> No "peak" at all.
>
> (In the original message, the above section followed PL's response now
> in the section below; the order of the arguments has no impact on the
> arguments made.)
>
> Cuba's population is (according to the CIA, whose word the opponents of
> the Cuban Revolution

again Barry. Those you attach do not oppose the "Cuban revolution". They
oppose the Castro dictatorship.
The aim of the Cuban revolution against Batista was the restoration of the
1940 constitution.
Even Castro and Che admitted is was no socialist or communists revolution.
The communists actually sided with Batista against the revolution and for
example condemned Castro's attack on the "Moncada" barracks in Santiago.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/revolution.htm

> accept as gospel when it attacks Cuba) 11,382,820
> (July 2006 estimate in Internet version of CIA World Factbook).
>
> The number of applicants for the "lottery" for visas to immigrate from
> Cuba to the U.S. is published every year and varies slightly. I cited
> both ends of the range. Since there's not that much statistcal
> difference between the average and the maximum ("peak") and minimum
> number of applicants. Assuming that every single one of the
> 480,000-540,000 Cuban applicants for lottery for a visa for immigration
> to U.S. has entered with the intentions of jumping onto the plane or
> boat to the U.S., that makes 4%-5% of the Cuban population who choose
> to leave.

Fisrst: here one can find the basics on the violations by the Castro regime
of the freedom of movement:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

As far as Barry's assertion gors, the 540,000 that participate in the
lottery (facing possible reprisals by the regime)make up the 4 to 5% of the
Cuban population that tries that way to leave the country.
That is all.
Lots more try various other means
- leave by sea with the risk of being killed or dying at sea or by the hand
of the regime:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/13_de_marzo.htm
- people marry (even pay people to marry them) to get out (note: the going
rate is Spain is about 5000 Euro)
An interesting report (audio):
http://www.cubaverdad.net/husband_for_sale.htm
- people on international missions stay behind (like the doctors in Brazil)
- with family reunion visas
- obtaining another nationality (second generation Spanish people for
example).

That brings us to the following element of the 540,000 applications.
Mostly one member of the family goes and then tries to get the rest of the
family out. If each of the 540,000 would want to also bring out 3 persons
that would be a total of over 2 million people.

But the bst proof that Cubans want to leave is the extent of repression that
is set up to stop people from leaving.
A country that has no need to keep people in, does not need these laws to
punish "illegal exit" from the country.
In countries that respect human rights there is no "illegal exit" of a
country.
The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país, "illegal
exit from country." Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217, those caught
trying to leave the country without the permission of the government can be
fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have not used violence and
up to eight years if force or intimidation is used. In cases where passenger
vessels or airplanes are hijacked, the charge is usually one of piratería,
"piracy." Under Penal Code Article 117, piracy carries a penalty of up to 20
years imprisonment, or a possible sentence of death if there is loss of life
or risk to the lives of others.25

In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
trying to leave the island without permission. In 1994, illegal exit
prisoners were thought to constitute the largest category of political
prisoners in Cuba. In 1990 alone, there were 335 inmates convicted of
illegal exit serving time in a single prison in Havana, the Combinado del
Este.26

http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm


That exposes the basic fallacy of Barry's concocted argument.

The best proof is to see what happend when Castro opened the door for a
couple of days: in the Mariel boat lift 125,000 people left in a couple of
days (their numbers limited by the availability of ships to take them out).

Another interesting fact is that 553 people with a valid entry visa for the
US are not allowed to leave Cuba:
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/03/castro-retiene-533-cubanos-con-visa.html

Recent news about migration:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/migration.php


(snip)

>> Note that Cubans tend to leave the country and then bring over their
>> family.
>> If each of the 540,000 tries to bring over 3 persons that means that 20%
>> of
>> the Cuban population wants to go to the US, no?
>
> (This matter to be addressed separately in my next message on this
> matter.)


but at least 1.5 million Cubans already live outside Cuba, no?
The US has close to 1.3 million alone (2000)..
A 2000 estimate put the number in Latin America at 130,000.

>> Now that is without those that want to go to Europe, no?
>>
>
> I don't have statistics on the numbers of Cubans who emigrated to
> Belgium. PL (as spouse of one of them) is more likely to know that
> number (and whether that total could fill a soccer stadium). The
> combined total of Cubans living in Puerto Rico (a U.S. colony),
> Venezuela, Spain, and other countries with sizable numbers of Cubans is
> dwarfed by Cubans in Dade County alone.

You would be surprised how many Cubans live in Spain (legal and illegal).

La represión no es solución a la emigración
José Antonio Fornaris, Cuba Verdad

LA HABANA, Cuba - Abril (www.cubanet.org) - Una nota oficial divulgada
en los medios estatales informó el pasado lunes que a las siete mujeres
que junto a sus hijos iban a salir del país de forma irregular, con
rumbo a Florida, se les va a exigir responsabilidad penal, bajo el
argumento de que nadie tiene derecho a poner en peligro la vida de los
niños.

La Constitución, en su artículo 36, asegura que el matrimonio "descansa
en la igualdad absoluta de derechos y deberes de los cónyuges, los que
deben atender el mantenimiento del hogar y a la formación integral de
los hijos mediante el esfuerzo común, de modo que éste resulte
compatible con el desarrollo de las actividades sociales de ambos".

Resulta evidente que los padres son los máximos responsables de los
hijos. No obstante, moralmente es válido el argumento de que nadie tiene
derecho a poner en peligro la vida de los niños.

Pero, siguiendo ese mismo razonamiento, es imprescindible conocer cuándo
serán llevados ante los tribunales los responsables del hundimiento del
remolcador 13 de Marzo, en el que murieron casi una veintena de niños.
¿Cuándo se les exigirá responsabilidad penal a los que en 1962 pusieron
en peligro la vida de todos los niños cubanos (yo era uno de ellos), al
decidirse unilateralmente, violando los derechos de los ciudadanos de la
Isla, plantar en el territorio nacional cohetes atómicos?

Durante décadas, los cubanos han estado muriendo en el Estrecho de
Florida, escapando hacia Estados Unidos. El gobierno de Cuba no se
responsabiliza con nada de eso. Miles salen cada año de forma irregular
de la Isla hacia tierras vecinas. Uno lo logran, otros no. El gobierno
de Cuba alega no tener responsabilidad en eso.

En la época en que España gobernó en Cuba, el segundo gran castigo para
los cubanos, después de la muerte en garrote vil o por fusilamiento, era
el destierro. El sentimiento de pertenencia, el apego de los nacidos en
la Isla a su tierra siempre fue enorme.

Hasta 1959 nadie se iba. De ese año a la fecha los cubanos se van o
quieren irse para cualquier parte donde puedan sentirse personas.

Si estas siete mujeres son llevadas a prisión o se les retira la patria
potestad, los mayores perjudicados serían lo que, presumiblemente, se
quiere proteger: los niños. Además de que esas familias recibirían un
duro golpe. Recordemos que la familia es la célula fundamental de la
sociedad.

Si los problemas de emigración se resolvieran con represión, en Cuba no
existiera la emigración.

Las urnas es lo único que puede resolver el problema. Unas elecciones
libres y democráticas. Los cubanos necesitamos tener garantizado el
derecho de participar, sin exclusiones, en la vida política y económica
de la nación. La posibilidad de saber que Cuba es de todos, y de poder
confiar en ella, en la misma medida que ella pueda confiar en nosotros.
Eso es lo único que hará renacer el sentimiento de pertenencia.

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/apr06/26a7.htm

PL

[Pedro]

Hey, 4 million Puerto Ricans living in the US (without counting the ones
in othe rparts of the world) leaving the US territory. Cubans in the US?
Despite the fact that billions of dollars are spent to help these folks,
special immigration policies give them preference (not US Citizens from
Puerto Rico)on one million Cubans reside in the US.

DON'T SWALLOW THE PROPAGANDA!!!!!


On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 16:05:44 -0700, Barry Schier <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> PL wrote:
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:448836ed$0$26851$***@free.teranews.com...
>> >
>> > "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>> > news:vbWhg.212750$***@blueberry.telenet-ops.be...
>> >>
>> >> Castro doesn't just humiliate prisoners. He humiliates the people of
>> >> Cuba.
>> >
>> > Which ones, the cowards who left or the more than 11 million that
>> choose
>> > to stay?
>>
>> You mean the ones that were able to leave or the ones that are stuck
>> behind
>> the "Castro sea wall"?
>> If 11 million chose to stay then Castro would not need these laws:
>> The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país,
>> "illegal
>> exit from country." Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217, those caught
>> trying to leave the country without the permission of the government
>> can be
>> fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have not used
>> violence and
>> up to eight years if force or intimidation is used. In cases where
>> passenger
>> vessels or airplanes are hijacked, the charge is usually one of
>> piratería,
>> "piracy." Under Penal Code Article 117, piracy carries a penalty of up
>> to 20
>> years imprisonment, or a possible sentence of death if there is loss of
>> life
>> or risk to the lives of others.25
>>
>> In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
>> trying to leave the island without permission. In 1994, illegal exit
>> prisoners were thought to constitute the largest category of political
>> prisoners in Cuba. In 1990 alone, there were 335 inmates convicted of
>> illegal exit serving time in a single prison in Havana, the Combinado
>> del
>> Este.26
>>
>> http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm
>> http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
>>
>> 540,000 entered in the US visa lottery.
>> That shows the "11 million" did not chose to stay. The are forced to
>> stay.
>> Never compare countries that respect human rights like freedom of
>> movement
>> with others.
>> Always looks at the facts and the context.
>>
>> PL
>
> Yes, not 100% of all Cubans "ch[o]ose to stay." Granting PL's claim a
> slightly more weight by using 540,000, i.e., the number during the
> PEAK year for visa lottery applications (which would more accurately
> statistically described as 510,000 plus/minus 30,000 per year) and
> making a round-off error in his favor, 5% of Cubans choose to leave.
> In New York, the city in which I was raised, there are 1 million Puerto
> Ricans; the population of the entire island of Puerto Rico is about 4
> million. Although I frequently cite statistics stating that Cuba
> (2%-5%)
>
>
> Contrast would-be imigrants from Cuba to the U..S.A. to everyone else
> from other "Third World" countries -- who are denied employment,
> benefits, subject to deportation, etc., (and, if not undocumented,
> having to pay exorbitant "fees" and fill out much cumbersome paperwork
> each year for "work permits" and other papers -- including citizenship
> papers, should they decide to apply -- to maintain their "legal" status
> and sitll be subject to racist, instead of judicially-mandated,
> discrimination). Under the Cuban Adjustment Act (and before that under
> different rules) Cubans immigrants to the U.S.A. are on the "fast
> track" to a "green card" and accelerated citizenship eligibility. (In
> several of the Internet discusison groups, there are those who object
> to the "red carpet" extended to Cuban would-be immigrants with barely
> masked xenophobic phrases, with particular venom directed at those
> Cubans' guaranteed receipt of welfare and other social benefits. I
> take the Marxist position that those benefits are not "special
> privileges" for the Cuban immigrants, but rather ENTITLEMENTS that
> should be extended to all. The mural on the wall of (what had been)
> the building serving as headquarters of Pathfinder Press (publisher of
> works by/about Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, Malcolm X, and other
> revolutionaries) which depiicted the portraits, ideas, etc. of the
> subjects that it published featured both famous and unknown people
> holding a giant multilingual banner: "For a world without borders
> ...!!"
>
> That leaves 95% (i.e., 100% - 5%) of Cubans who do NOT choose to leave.
>
>
>
> With the U.S. embargo adding to the hardships already historically
> imposed upon Cuba, there are those who wish to leave -- from a poor
> country to the world's richest. country (i.e., U.S.A., as measured by
> G.N.P., not moral wealth). The myth that the streets of El Norte are
> paved with gold is widespread in many countries, even without a barrage
> of propaganda from the U.S.A., ever transmitted through "indepedent
> jounralists." The reaity of exenophobia discrimination against
> immigrants is most often learned through experience.
>



--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Pedro]

That is less than the "illegals" killed on the US border!


On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 10:07:38 -0700, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:

>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:448836ed$0$26851$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>> news:vbWhg.212750$***@blueberry.telenet-ops.be...
>>>
>>> Castro doesn't just humiliate prisoners. He humiliates the people of
>>> Cuba.
>>
>> Which ones, the cowards who left or the more than 11 million that choose
>> to stay?
>
> You mean the ones that were able to leave or the ones that are stuck
> behind
> the "Castro sea wall"?
> If 11 million chose to stay then Castro would not need these laws:
> The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país,
> "illegal
> exit from country." Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217, those caught
> trying to leave the country without the permission of the government can
> be
> fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have not used violence
> and
> up to eight years if force or intimidation is used. In cases where
> passenger
> vessels or airplanes are hijacked, the charge is usually one of
> piratería,
> "piracy." Under Penal Code Article 117, piracy carries a penalty of up
> to 20
> years imprisonment, or a possible sentence of death if there is loss of
> life
> or risk to the lives of others.25
>
> In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
> trying to leave the island without permission. In 1994, illegal exit
> prisoners were thought to constitute the largest category of political
> prisoners in Cuba. In 1990 alone, there were 335 inmates convicted of
> illegal exit serving time in a single prison in Havana, the Combinado del
> Este.26
>
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
>
> 540,000 entered in the US visa lottery.
> That shows the "11 million" did not chose to stay. The are forced to
> stay.
> Never compare countries that respect human rights like freedom of
> movement
> with others.
> Always looks at the facts and the context.
>
> PL
>
>
>



--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[PL]

"Pedro" <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org> wrote in message
news:***@cx214697-a...
> That is less than the "illegals" killed on the US border!

Killed by whom?
For more on those that died trying to leave Cuba:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/13_de_marzo.htm

PL

> On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 10:07:38 -0700, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:448836ed$0$26851$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>> news:vbWhg.212750$***@blueberry.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>
>>>> Castro doesn't just humiliate prisoners. He humiliates the people of
>>>> Cuba.
>>>
>>> Which ones, the cowards who left or the more than 11 million that choose
>>> to stay?
>>
>> You mean the ones that were able to leave or the ones that are stuck
>> behind
>> the "Castro sea wall"?
>> If 11 million chose to stay then Castro would not need these laws:
>> The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país,
>> "illegal
>> exit from country." Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217, those caught
>> trying to leave the country without the permission of the government can
>> be
>> fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have not used violence
>> and
>> up to eight years if force or intimidation is used. In cases where
>> passenger
>> vessels or airplanes are hijacked, the charge is usually one of
>> piratería,
>> "piracy." Under Penal Code Article 117, piracy carries a penalty of up
>> to 20
>> years imprisonment, or a possible sentence of death if there is loss of
>> life
>> or risk to the lives of others.25
>>
>> In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
>> trying to leave the island without permission. In 1994, illegal exit
>> prisoners were thought to constitute the largest category of political
>> prisoners in Cuba. In 1990 alone, there were 335 inmates convicted of
>> illegal exit serving time in a single prison in Havana, the Combinado del
>> Este.26
>>
>> http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm
>> http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
>>
>> 540,000 entered in the US visa lottery.
>> That shows the "11 million" did not chose to stay. The are forced to
>> stay.
>> Never compare countries that respect human rights like freedom of
>> movement
>> with others.
>> Always looks at the facts and the context.
>>
>> PL
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Pedro]

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 05:14:03 -0700, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:

>
> "Pedro" <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org> wrote in message
> news:***@cx214697-a...
>> That is less than the "illegals" killed on the US border!
>
> Killed by whom?


Neo'nazi and other white supremacists, there is even a video game called
"getting your beaner." This is a great country!



>
>



--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[PL]

Pedro wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 05:14:03 -0700, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Pedro" <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org> wrote in message
>> news:***@cx214697-a...
>>
>>> That is less than the "illegals" killed on the US border!
>>
>>
>> Killed by whom?
>
>
>
> Neo'nazi and other white supremacists,

any links to data?

> there is even a video game
> called "getting your beaner." This is a great country!

there will lways be "nutty geeks".
Games don't kill.
Castro does.

For more on those that died trying to leave Cuba:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/13_de_marzo.htm

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:EHiig.473439$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> there will lways be "nutty geeks".
> Games don't kill.
> Castro does.

Must be something like Saddam being accused of killing people and then
having a prosecution witness say the people are not dead, they're alive at
this moment. :)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:4489afc8$0$26872$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:EHiig.473439$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> there will lways be "nutty geeks".
>> Games don't kill.
>> Castro does.
>
> Must be something like Saddam being accused of killing people and then
> having a prosecution witness say the people are not dead,

You mean like the Kurdish people of and the gas Attacks?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2854019.stm
http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical_weapons/chemiraqgas2.html

For more on those that died trying to leave Cuba:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/13_de_marzo.htm

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:j6kig.473562$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:4489afc8$0$26872$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>> news:EHiig.473439$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>
>>> there will lways be "nutty geeks".
>>> Games don't kill.
>>> Castro does.
>>
>> Must be something like Saddam being accused of killing people and then
>> having a prosecution witness say the people are not dead,
>
> You mean like the Kurdish people of and the gas Attacks?

You mean the attack with gas provided by the US from US chemical stores
(ever hear of chemical weapon signatures?) and delivered with helicopters
which the US urged the countries of manufacture to sell to Saddam because of
the "national interest" of keeping Iraq busy with a war with Iran?

As I said, you can prove anything if you make up and pick and choose your
facts.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:4489fd16$0$26892$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:j6kig.473562$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:4489afc8$0$26872$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>> news:EHiig.473439$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>
>>>> there will lways be "nutty geeks".
>>>> Games don't kill.
>>>> Castro does.
>>>
>>> Must be something like Saddam being accused of killing people and then
>>> having a prosecution witness say the people are not dead,
>>
>> You mean like the Kurdish people of and the gas Attacks?
>
> You mean the attack with gas provided by the US from US chemical stores

Nope.
Made with chemicals bought from a Dutch businessman and "delived" upon the
orders of "chemical Ali" and Saddam.

> As I said, you can prove anything if you make up and pick and choose your
> facts.

Facts:
- delivered on the orders of Saddam and "chemical Ali"
Profile: 'Chemical Ali'
Known as "Chemical Ali" for his role in gas attacks on northern Iraq during
the offensive against the Kurds in 1987, Ali Hassan al-Majid was an
important powerbroker in Saddam Hussein's Iraq.
As the Iraqi president's paternal cousin, he sat astride two pillars of the
Iraqi regime - Saddam Hussein's extended family and the Baath Party.

Before the fall of the regime, Arab press reports cast him in the part of a
family kingmaker, playing a significant role in the simmering rivalry for
succession between Saddam Hussein's sons, Qusay and Uday.

After several years without a ministerial position, al-Majid left his
behind-the-scenes role in the upper strata of the Baath Party as Saddam
Hussein placed Iraq on a war footing.

In March 2003, he was appointed to head the southern region - one of four
senior commanders reporting directly to the president.

A month later, British officials said they believed he had been killed in a
coalition air strike in the southern city of Basra.

But in June, US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld conceded that he did
not know whether he was dead or alive.

Two months later, US military officials announced that they had captured
him.

Kurdish offensive

Al-Majid was appointed governor of northern Iraq in March 1987, marking the
beginning of a sustained offensive, known as the "Anfal Campaign", by Iraqi
troops against the Kurdish population.

Kurdish organisations describe the events which followed as genocide.

A decree signed by al-Majid, dated 3 June 1987, stated: "Within their
jurisdiction, the armed forces must kill any human being or animal present
in these areas."

Human rights campaigners say the Iraqi army then proceeded to kill tens of
thousands of Kurdish civilians in gas attacks and by summary execution.

'Governor of Kuwait'

Iraq's invasion of Kuwait ended al-Majid's career in the north.

Following the annexation of the Gulf state in August 1990 he became
effectively "governor" of what Baghdad called "Iraq's 19th governorate".

Although he was replaced in that position in November 1990, in March 1991
al-Majid was promoted to minister of the interior.

The British pressure group Indict accuses him of crimes against humanity for
his role in suppressing the Kurdish and Shia-led uprising which broke out as
Iraqi troops fled Kuwait.

After a period as defence minister from 1991 to 1995, he was relieved of his
ministerial duties.

However, he continued to hold important Baath Party posts, as a member of
the ruling Revolution Command Council and leader of the Baath Party in
Salah-al-Din governorate, which included Saddam Hussein's home town of
Tikrit.

Family defectors

Al-Majid's position was threatened in 1995, when two of his nephews, Saddam
Hussein's sons-in-law, Hussein Kamil al-Majid and Saddam Kamil al-Majid,
defected to Jordan with their families.

He then personally led the so-called "jihadi offensive", which resulted in
the murder of the two brothers, their father (his own brother) and several
others for treason.

Family feuds during peace time did not prevent Saddam Hussein from turning
to trusted relatives for support in times of war.

Renewed US and British bombing raids on Iraq in December 1998 saw al-Majid
return to Iraq's sensitive border with Kuwait. He was appointed as commander
of a newly-formed southern region - a role he would take up again in 2003,
as Iraq once again prepared for war.

BBC Monitoring , based in Caversham in southern England, selects and
translates information from radio, television, press, news agencies and the
Internet from 150 countries in more than 70 languages.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/2855349.stm

Published: 2003/08/21 12:28:10 GMT

- Dutch busonessman:

Killing of Iraq Kurds 'genocide'
A court in The Hague has ruled that the killing of thousands of Kurds in
Iraq in the 1980s was an act of genocide.
The ruling came in the case of Dutch trader Frans van Anraat, who was given
a 15-year sentence for selling chemicals to Saddam Hussein's regime.

He was found guilty of complicity in war crimes over a 1988 chemical attack
that killed more than 5,000 people, but acquitted of genocide charges.

It is the first trial to deal with war crimes against Kurds in Iraq and
Iran.



'Intent to destroy'

Dozens of ethnic Kurds gathered in the packed courtroom to hear the verdict.


The court has no other conclusion than that these attacks were
committed with the intent to destroy the Kurdish population of Iraq
Court ruling

Before van Anraat could be convicted, the judges had to decide whether the
1988 attack on Iraqi Kurds in Halabja amounted to genocide.

According to the 1948 Geneva Convention, genocide is defined as "acts
committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,
ethnic, racial or religious group".

The Dutch court said it considered "legally and convincingly proven that the
Kurdish population meets requirement under Genocide Conventions as an ethnic
group".

"The court has no other conclusion than that these attacks were committed
with the intent to destroy the Kurdish population of Iraq," the ruling said.

However, observers say the Dutch court's decision may not have much
influence on the Iraqi tribunal, which is hearing the trial of Saddam
Hussein.

The court is believed to be preparing a case against him for the use of
chemical weapons in Halabja in northern Iraq.

'Contribution'

Van Anraat was not in court to hear the verdict.


He was charged with supplying thousands of tons of raw materials for
chemical weapons used in the 1980-1988 war against Iran, and against Iraqi
Kurds.
The court found him guilty of aiding war crimes, as "his deliveries
facilitated the attacks".

"He cannot counter with the argument that this would have happened even
without his contribution," the presiding judge said.

However, the judges ruled that van Anraat was not aware of the genocidal
intentions of the Iraqi regime when he sold the ingredients for poison gas.

Victims' relatives clapped when the sentence was read out, while dozens
danced in a circle to drums outside the court.

Defence lawyers said they would appeal against the sentence, which was the
maximum that could be imposed for the charge.

The 63-year-old was arrested in 1989 in Italy at the request of the US
Government.

He was later released and fled to Iraq, where he remained until 2003.

He was arrested in December 2004 at his Amsterdam home.


Send us your comments using the form below.

This decision is historic because it recognizes at least one act of genocide
against Kurds perpetrated in Iraq by the regime of Saddam Hussein. There are
of course other genocidal campaigns in Iraq but this is justice for those
innocent victims and a legal recognition of an act of genocide against
Kurds. As a Kurd who has lost some dear relatives in the deadly attack of
Halabja in 1988, I'm grateful for the Dutch court for its unbiased and
conscientious verdict. The next step should be compensation of living
relatives of Halabja victims.
Dr Nazhad Khasraw Hawramany, Basel, Switzerland

Perhaps a timely reminder to those who like taking a swipe at the American
and British leaders. Maybe people should reflect on this when they start
comparing freely elected Western leaders with Saddam or when considering
whether he has a "fair" trial.
Peter, Provincia di Treviso, Italy

It's about time someone recognized at the world level that the Kurds have
been persecuted and harassed ever since the UK artificially drew country
lines in that region. I supported the Kurds during the first Iraq War to get
them safely back to their homes in Kirkuk among others.
Tony Carey, Edgewater, USA

Well done the Dutch! This is a momentous day indeed. As a lawyer, and more
particularly as a Kurd, the War Crimes' Court's finding of genocide today is
a watershed. Hopefully it will be the first of many cases to try those
"businessmen" suppliers of nefarious weaponry to Saddam's regime. This is
only the beginning of course.
Azad, UK, Edinburgh





Name
Your E-mail address
Town & Country
Comments



Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4555000.stm

Published: 2005/12/23 17:01:30 GMT

So "kiddo": read up on the facts before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:dnxig.474611$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> Made with chemicals bought from a Dutch businessman and "delived" upon the
> orders of "chemical Ali" and Saddam.

Wrong again. The signature of the chemicals used was traced DIRECTLY back to
US chemical weapons stores. The only other plausible explanation that has
been set forth is that Saddam wasn't even involved in that attack. The only
other place the signature leads to is Iran.

> Facts:
> - delivered on the orders of Saddam and "chemical Ali"

Educate yourself.

http://www.polyconomics.com/searchbase/11-18-98.html
http://www.unknownnews.net/0301-1.html

> So "kiddo": read up on the facts before you make a bigger fool of
> yourself.

That's cute, sonny. Ever wonder if it might do you some good to take your
own advice?

<somebody pass more popcorn>

Next!



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:448ac422$0$26815$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:dnxig.474611$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> Made with chemicals bought from a Dutch businessman and "delived" upon
>> the orders of "chemical Ali" and Saddam.
>
> Wrong again. The signature of the chemicals used was traced DIRECTLY back
> to US chemical weapons stores.

No links I see.
here is the information on the Dutch source:
- Dutch businessman:

Killing of Iraq Kurds 'genocide'
A court in The Hague has ruled that the killing of thousands of Kurds in
Iraq in the 1980s was an act of genocide.
The ruling came in the case of Dutch trader Frans van Anraat, who was given
a 15-year sentence for selling chemicals to Saddam Hussein's regime.

He was found guilty of complicity in war crimes over a 1988 chemical attack
that killed more than 5,000 people, but acquitted of genocide charges.

It is the first trial to deal with war crimes against Kurds in Iraq and
Iran.



'Intent to destroy'

Dozens of ethnic Kurds gathered in the packed courtroom to hear the verdict.


The court has no other conclusion than that these attacks were
committed with the intent to destroy the Kurdish population of Iraq
Court ruling

Before van Anraat could be convicted, the judges had to decide whether the
1988 attack on Iraqi Kurds in Halabja amounted to genocide.

According to the 1948 Geneva Convention, genocide is defined as "acts
committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,
ethnic, racial or religious group".

The Dutch court said it considered "legally and convincingly proven that the
Kurdish population meets requirement under Genocide Conventions as an ethnic
group".

"The court has no other conclusion than that these attacks were committed
with the intent to destroy the Kurdish population of Iraq," the ruling said.

However, observers say the Dutch court's decision may not have much
influence on the Iraqi tribunal, which is hearing the trial of Saddam
Hussein.

The court is believed to be preparing a case against him for the use of
chemical weapons in Halabja in northern Iraq.

'Contribution'

Van Anraat was not in court to hear the verdict.


He was charged with supplying thousands of tons of raw materials for
chemical weapons used in the 1980-1988 war against Iran, and against Iraqi
Kurds.
The court found him guilty of aiding war crimes, as "his deliveries
facilitated the attacks".

"He cannot counter with the argument that this would have happened even
without his contribution," the presiding judge said.

However, the judges ruled that van Anraat was not aware of the genocidal
intentions of the Iraqi regime when he sold the ingredients for poison gas.

Victims' relatives clapped when the sentence was read out, while dozens
danced in a circle to drums outside the court.

Defence lawyers said they would appeal against the sentence, which was the
maximum that could be imposed for the charge.

The 63-year-old was arrested in 1989 in Italy at the request of the US
Government.

He was later released and fled to Iraq, where he remained until 2003.

He was arrested in December 2004 at his Amsterdam home.


Send us your comments using the form below.

This decision is historic because it recognizes at least one act of genocide
against Kurds perpetrated in Iraq by the regime of Saddam Hussein. There are
of course other genocidal campaigns in Iraq but this is justice for those
innocent victims and a legal recognition of an act of genocide against
Kurds. As a Kurd who has lost some dear relatives in the deadly attack of
Halabja in 1988, I'm grateful for the Dutch court for its unbiased and
conscientious verdict. The next step should be compensation of living
relatives of Halabja victims.
Dr Nazhad Khasraw Hawramany, Basel, Switzerland

Perhaps a timely reminder to those who like taking a swipe at the American
and British leaders. Maybe people should reflect on this when they start
comparing freely elected Western leaders with Saddam or when considering
whether he has a "fair" trial.
Peter, Provincia di Treviso, Italy

It's about time someone recognized at the world level that the Kurds have
been persecuted and harassed ever since the UK artificially drew country
lines in that region. I supported the Kurds during the first Iraq War to get
them safely back to their homes in Kirkuk among others.
Tony Carey, Edgewater, USA

Well done the Dutch! This is a momentous day indeed. As a lawyer, and more
particularly as a Kurd, the War Crimes' Court's finding of genocide today is
a watershed. Hopefully it will be the first of many cases to try those
"businessmen" suppliers of nefarious weaponry to Saddam's regime. This is
only the beginning of course.
Azad, UK, Edinburgh





Name
Your E-mail address
Town & Country
Comments



Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4555000.stm

Published: 2005/12/23 17:01:30 GMT

> The only other plausible explanation that has been set forth is that
> Saddam wasn't even involved in that attack.

Get real.
And "chemical Ali" is a Saint?

Profile: 'Chemical Ali'
Known as "Chemical Ali" for his role in gas attacks on northern Iraq during
the offensive against the Kurds in 1987, Ali Hassan al-Majid was an
important powerbroker in Saddam Hussein's Iraq.
As the Iraqi president's paternal cousin, he sat astride two pillars of the
Iraqi regime - Saddam Hussein's extended family and the Baath Party.

Before the fall of the regime, Arab press reports cast him in the part of a
family kingmaker, playing a significant role in the simmering rivalry for
succession between Saddam Hussein's sons, Qusay and Uday.

After several years without a ministerial position, al-Majid left his
behind-the-scenes role in the upper strata of the Baath Party as Saddam
Hussein placed Iraq on a war footing.

In March 2003, he was appointed to head the southern region - one of four
senior commanders reporting directly to the president.

A month later, British officials said they believed he had been killed in a
coalition air strike in the southern city of Basra.

But in June, US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld conceded that he did
not know whether he was dead or alive.

Two months later, US military officials announced that they had captured
him.

Kurdish offensive

Al-Majid was appointed governor of northern Iraq in March 1987, marking the
beginning of a sustained offensive, known as the "Anfal Campaign", by Iraqi
troops against the Kurdish population.

Kurdish organisations describe the events which followed as genocide.

A decree signed by al-Majid, dated 3 June 1987, stated: "Within their
jurisdiction, the armed forces must kill any human being or animal present
in these areas."

Human rights campaigners say the Iraqi army then proceeded to kill tens of
thousands of Kurdish civilians in gas attacks and by summary execution.

'Governor of Kuwait'

Iraq's invasion of Kuwait ended al-Majid's career in the north.

Following the annexation of the Gulf state in August 1990 he became
effectively "governor" of what Baghdad called "Iraq's 19th governorate".

Although he was replaced in that position in November 1990, in March 1991
al-Majid was promoted to minister of the interior.

The British pressure group Indict accuses him of crimes against humanity for
his role in suppressing the Kurdish and Shia-led uprising which broke out as
Iraqi troops fled Kuwait.

After a period as defence minister from 1991 to 1995, he was relieved of his
ministerial duties.

However, he continued to hold important Baath Party posts, as a member of
the ruling Revolution Command Council and leader of the Baath Party in
Salah-al-Din governorate, which included Saddam Hussein's home town of
Tikrit.

Family defectors

Al-Majid's position was threatened in 1995, when two of his nephews, Saddam
Hussein's sons-in-law, Hussein Kamil al-Majid and Saddam Kamil al-Majid,
defected to Jordan with their families.

He then personally led the so-called "jihadi offensive", which resulted in
the murder of the two brothers, their father (his own brother) and several
others for treason.

Family feuds during peace time did not prevent Saddam Hussein from turning
to trusted relatives for support in times of war.

Renewed US and British bombing raids on Iraq in December 1998 saw al-Majid
return to Iraq's sensitive border with Kuwait. He was appointed as commander
of a newly-formed southern region - a role he would take up again in 2003,
as Iraq once again prepared for war.

BBC Monitoring , based in Caversham in southern England, selects and
translates information from radio, television, press, news agencies and the
Internet from 150 countries in more than 70 languages.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/2855349.stm

Published: 2003/08/21 12:28:10 GMT


>> Facts:
>> - delivered on the orders of Saddam and "chemical Ali"
>
> Educate yourself.
>
> http://www.polyconomics.com/searchbase/11-18-98.html
> http://www.unknownnews.net/0301-1.html

Nothing credible there.
From "Physicians for Human rights"
Medical Team Finds Evidence of Iraqi Use of Chemical Weapons on Kurds
http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical_weapons/chemkurd.html

"Repeatedly used CW against Iraqi Kurds in 1988 and against Iran in
1983-1988 during the Iran-Iraq war."
http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/iraq.htm

HRW:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1991/IRAQ913.htm#6

and lots more with a lot more credibility.

>> So "kiddo": read up on the facts before you make a bigger fool of
>> yourself.
>
> That's cute, sonny. Ever wonder if it might do you some good to take your
> own advice?

Comparing sources you are the one with a major problem, "boy".
Not me.

PL

[Juan Jimenez]

"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:r6Wig.476615$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> No links I see.
> here is the information on the Dutch source:
> - Dutch businessman:
>
> Killing of Iraq Kurds 'genocide'
> A court in The Hague has ruled that the killing of thousands of Kurds in
> Iraq in the 1980s was an act of genocide.

There are plenty of reports that found otherwise.

> The ruling came in the case of Dutch trader Frans van Anraat, who was
> given
> a 15-year sentence for selling chemicals to Saddam Hussein's regime.

Unfortunately, the chemicals used had signatures that did not match the ones
used against the Kurds.

>>
>> Educate yourself.
>>
>> http://www.polyconomics.com/searchbase/11-18-98.html
>> http://www.unknownnews.net/0301-1.html
>
> Nothing credible there.

You have just described your own muddling of facts to serve your own
personal agenda. Congratulations. :)

> "Repeatedly used CW against Iraqi Kurds in 1988 and against Iran in
> 1983-1988 during the Iran-Iraq war."
> http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/iraq.htm

And guess where the CW came from. :)

> Comparing sources you are the one with a major problem, "boy".
> Not me.

That's what Bush keeps telling himself too. Deja vu. You have those big
"what, me worry" ears? LOL!

Next!



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[PL]

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:448c2f89$0$32633$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:r6Wig.476615$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> No links I see.
>> here is the information on the Dutch source:
>> - Dutch businessman:
>>
>> Killing of Iraq Kurds 'genocide'
>> A court in The Hague has ruled that the killing of thousands of Kurds in
>> Iraq in the 1980s was an act of genocide.
>
> There are plenty of reports that found otherwise.

None credible enough.
None posted by you.

- Dutch businessman:

Killing of Iraq Kurds 'genocide'
A court in The Hague has ruled that the killing of thousands of Kurds in
Iraq in the 1980s was an act of genocide.
The ruling came in the case of Dutch trader Frans van Anraat, who was given
a 15-year sentence for selling chemicals to Saddam Hussein's regime.

He was found guilty of complicity in war crimes over a 1988 chemical attack
that killed more than 5,000 people, but acquitted of genocide charges.

It is the first trial to deal with war crimes against Kurds in Iraq and
Iran.



'Intent to destroy'

Dozens of ethnic Kurds gathered in the packed courtroom to hear the verdict.


The court has no other conclusion than that these attacks were
committed with the intent to destroy the Kurdish population of Iraq
Court ruling

Before van Anraat could be convicted, the judges had to decide whether the
1988 attack on Iraqi Kurds in Halabja amounted to genocide.

According to the 1948 Geneva Convention, genocide is defined as "acts
committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,
ethnic, racial or religious group".

The Dutch court said it considered "legally and convincingly proven that the
Kurdish population meets requirement under Genocide Conventions as an ethnic
group".

"The court has no other conclusion than that these attacks were committed
with the intent to destroy the Kurdish population of Iraq," the ruling said.

However, observers say the Dutch court's decision may not have much
influence on the Iraqi tribunal, which is hearing the trial of Saddam
Hussein.

The court is believed to be preparing a case against him for the use of
chemical weapons in Halabja in northern Iraq.

'Contribution'

Van Anraat was not in court to hear the verdict.


He was charged with supplying thousands of tons of raw materials for
chemical weapons used in the 1980-1988 war against Iran, and against Iraqi
Kurds.
The court found him guilty of aiding war crimes, as "his deliveries
facilitated the attacks".

"He cannot counter with the argument that this would have happened even
without his contribution," the presiding judge said.

However, the judges ruled that van Anraat was not aware of the genocidal
intentions of the Iraqi regime when he sold the ingredients for poison gas.

Victims' relatives clapped when the sentence was read out, while dozens
danced in a circle to drums outside the court.

Defence lawyers said they would appeal against the sentence, which was the
maximum that could be imposed for the charge.

The 63-year-old was arrested in 1989 in Italy at the request of the US
Government.

He was later released and fled to Iraq, where he remained until 2003.

He was arrested in December 2004 at his Amsterdam home.


Send us your comments using the form below.

This decision is historic because it recognizes at least one act of genocide
against Kurds perpetrated in Iraq by the regime of Saddam Hussein. There are
of course other genocidal campaigns in Iraq but this is justice for those
innocent victims and a legal recognition of an act of genocide against
Kurds. As a Kurd who has lost some dear relatives in the deadly attack of
Halabja in 1988, I'm grateful for the Dutch court for its unbiased and
conscientious verdict. The next step should be compensation of living
relatives of Halabja victims.
Dr Nazhad Khasraw Hawramany, Basel, Switzerland

Perhaps a timely reminder to those who like taking a swipe at the American
and British leaders. Maybe people should reflect on this when they start
comparing freely elected Western leaders with Saddam or when considering
whether he has a "fair" trial.
Peter, Provincia di Treviso, Italy

It's about time someone recognized at the world level that the Kurds have
been persecuted and harassed ever since the UK artificially drew country
lines in that region. I supported the Kurds during the first Iraq War to get
them safely back to their homes in Kirkuk among others.
Tony Carey, Edgewater, USA

Well done the Dutch! This is a momentous day indeed. As a lawyer, and more
particularly as a Kurd, the War Crimes' Court's finding of genocide today is
a watershed. Hopefully it will be the first of many cases to try those
"businessmen" suppliers of nefarious weaponry to Saddam's regime. This is
only the beginning of course.
Azad, UK, Edinburgh


Name
Your E-mail address
Town & Country
Comments


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4555000.stm

Published: 2005/12/23 17:01:30 GMT

>> The ruling came in the case of Dutch trader Frans van Anraat, who was
>> given
>> a 15-year sentence for selling chemicals to Saddam Hussein's regime.
>
> Unfortunately, the chemicals used had signatures that did not match the
> ones used against the Kurds.

False as the Dutch court proceedings have shown.
He was convicted based on the evidence (including forensic evidence).


What happend to "chemical Ali"?
Why snip all of this?


Profile: 'Chemical Ali'
Known as "Chemical Ali" for his role in gas attacks on northern Iraq during
the offensive against the Kurds in 1987, Ali Hassan al-Majid was an
important powerbroker in Saddam Hussein's Iraq.
As the Iraqi president's paternal cousin, he sat astride two pillars of the
Iraqi regime - Saddam Hussein's extended family and the Baath Party.

Before the fall of the regime, Arab press reports cast him in the part of a
family kingmaker, playing a significant role in the simmering rivalry for
succession between Saddam Hussein's sons, Qusay and Uday.

After several years without a ministerial position, al-Majid left his
behind-the-scenes role in the upper strata of the Baath Party as Saddam
Hussein placed Iraq on a war footing.

In March 2003, he was appointed to head the southern region - one of four
senior commanders reporting directly to the president.

A month later, British officials said they believed he had been killed in a
coalition air strike in the southern city of Basra.

But in June, US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld conceded that he did
not know whether he was dead or alive.

Two months later, US military officials announced that they had captured
him.

Kurdish offensive

Al-Majid was appointed governor of northern Iraq in March 1987, marking the
beginning of a sustained offensive, known as the "Anfal Campaign", by Iraqi
troops against the Kurdish population.

Kurdish organisations describe the events which followed as genocide.

A decree signed by al-Majid, dated 3 June 1987, stated: "Within their
jurisdiction, the armed forces must kill any human being or animal present
in these areas."

Human rights campaigners say the Iraqi army then proceeded to kill tens of
thousands of Kurdish civilians in gas attacks and by summary execution.

'Governor of Kuwait'

Iraq's invasion of Kuwait ended al-Majid's career in the north.

Following the annexation of the Gulf state in August 1990 he became
effectively "governor" of what Baghdad called "Iraq's 19th governorate".

Although he was replaced in that position in November 1990, in March 1991
al-Majid was promoted to minister of the interior.

The British pressure group Indict accuses him of crimes against humanity for
his role in suppressing the Kurdish and Shia-led uprising which broke out as
Iraqi troops fled Kuwait.

After a period as defence minister from 1991 to 1995, he was relieved of his
ministerial duties.

However, he continued to hold important Baath Party posts, as a member of
the ruling Revolution Command Council and leader of the Baath Party in
Salah-al-Din governorate, which included Saddam Hussein's home town of
Tikrit.

Family defectors

Al-Majid's position was threatened in 1995, when two of his nephews, Saddam
Hussein's sons-in-law, Hussein Kamil al-Majid and Saddam Kamil al-Majid,
defected to Jordan with their families.

He then personally led the so-called "jihadi offensive", which resulted in
the murder of the two brothers, their father (his own brother) and several
others for treason.

Family feuds during peace time did not prevent Saddam Hussein from turning
to trusted relatives for support in times of war.

Renewed US and British bombing raids on Iraq in December 1998 saw al-Majid
return to Iraq's sensitive border with Kuwait. He was appointed as commander
of a newly-formed southern region - a role he would take up again in 2003,
as Iraq once again prepared for war.

BBC Monitoring , based in Caversham in southern England, selects and
translates information from radio, television, press, news agencies and the
Internet from 150 countries in more than 70 languages.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/2855349.stm

Published: 2003/08/21 12:28:10 GMT

getting desperate?

>>>
>>> Educate yourself.
>>>
>>> http://www.polyconomics.com/searchbase/11-18-98.html
>>> http://www.unknownnews.net/0301-1.html
>>
>> Nothing credible there.
>
> You have just described your own muddling of facts to serve your own
> personal agenda. Congratulations. :)

Nope.
I have shown that the facts support what I stated.

>> "Repeatedly used CW against Iraqi Kurds in 1988 and against Iran in
>> 1983-1988 during the Iran-Iraq war."
>> http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/iraq.htm
>
> And guess where the CW came from. :)

Easy:

Killing of Iraq Kurds 'genocide'
A court in The Hague has ruled that the killing of thousands of Kurds in
Iraq in the 1980s was an act of genocide.
The ruling came in the case of Dutch trader Frans van Anraat, who was given
a 15-year sentence for selling chemicals to Saddam Hussein's regime.

He was found guilty of complicity in war crimes over a 1988 chemical attack
that killed more than 5,000 people, but acquitted of genocide charges.

It is the first trial to deal with war crimes against Kurds in Iraq and
Iran.



'Intent to destroy'

Dozens of ethnic Kurds gathered in the packed courtroom to hear the verdict.


The court has no other conclusion than that these attacks were
committed with the intent to destroy the Kurdish population of Iraq
Court ruling

Before van Anraat could be convicted, the judges had to decide whether the
1988 attack on Iraqi Kurds in Halabja amounted to genocide.

According to the 1948 Geneva Convention, genocide is defined as "acts
committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,
ethnic, racial or religious group".

The Dutch court said it considered "legally and convincingly proven that the
Kurdish population meets requirement under Genocide Conventions as an ethnic
group".

"The court has no other conclusion than that these attacks were committed
with the intent to destroy the Kurdish population of Iraq," the ruling said.

However, observers say the Dutch court's decision may not have much
influence on the Iraqi tribunal, which is hearing the trial of Saddam
Hussein.

The court is believed to be preparing a case against him for the use of
chemical weapons in Halabja in northern Iraq.

'Contribution'

Van Anraat was not in court to hear the verdict.


He was charged with supplying thousands of tons of raw materials for
chemical weapons used in the 1980-1988 war against Iran, and against Iraqi
Kurds.
The court found him guilty of aiding war crimes, as "his deliveries
facilitated the attacks".

"He cannot counter with the argument that this would have happened even
without his contribution," the presiding judge said.

However, the judges ruled that van Anraat was not aware of the genocidal
intentions of the Iraqi regime when he sold the ingredients for poison gas.

Victims' relatives clapped when the sentence was read out, while dozens
danced in a circle to drums outside the court.

Defence lawyers said they would appeal against the sentence, which was the
maximum that could be imposed for the charge.

The 63-year-old was arrested in 1989 in Italy at the request of the US
Government.

He was later released and fled to Iraq, where he remained until 2003.

He was arrested in December 2004 at his Amsterdam home.


Send us your comments using the form below.

This decision is historic because it recognizes at least one act of genocide
against Kurds perpetrated in Iraq by the regime of Saddam Hussein. There are
of course other genocidal campaigns in Iraq but this is justice for those
innocent victims and a legal recognition of an act of genocide against
Kurds. As a Kurd who has lost some dear relatives in the deadly attack of
Halabja in 1988, I'm grateful for the Dutch court for its unbiased and
conscientious verdict. The next step should be compensation of living
relatives of Halabja victims.
Dr Nazhad Khasraw Hawramany, Basel, Switzerland

Perhaps a timely reminder to those who like taking a swipe at the American
and British leaders. Maybe people should reflect on this when they start
comparing freely elected Western leaders with Saddam or when considering
whether he has a "fair" trial.
Peter, Provincia di Treviso, Italy

It's about time someone recognized at the world level that the Kurds have
been persecuted and harassed ever since the UK artificially drew country
lines in that region. I supported the Kurds during the first Iraq War to get
them safely back to their homes in Kirkuk among others.
Tony Carey, Edgewater, USA

Well done the Dutch! This is a momentous day indeed. As a lawyer, and more
particularly as a Kurd, the War Crimes' Court's finding of genocide today is
a watershed. Hopefully it will be the first of many cases to try those
"businessmen" suppliers of nefarious weaponry to Saddam's regime. This is
only the beginning of course.
Azad, UK, Edinburgh


Name
Your E-mail address
Town & Country
Comments


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4555000.stm

Published: 2005/12/23 17:01:30 GMT

>> Comparing sources you are the one with a major problem, "boy".
>> Not me.
>
> That's what Bush keeps telling himself too.

I don't care about Bush.
I care about the truth.
You don't it seems.
Iguess that that is why you snipped these links in despair.

Nothing credible there.
From "Physicians for Human rights"
Medical Team Finds Evidence of Iraqi Use of Chemical Weapons on Kurds
http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical_weapons/chemkurd.html

"Repeatedly used CW against Iraqi Kurds in 1988 and against Iran in
1983-1988 during the Iran-Iraq war."
http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/iraq.htm

HRW:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1991/IRAQ913.htm#6

and lots more with a lot more credibility.

PL

[Pedro]

Being under US protection is hazardous to your health if you happen to be
a Muslim.

Three Guantánamo Detainees Committed Suicide, Military Says
Reuters

Saturday 10 June 2006

Miami - Three foreign prisoners being held at the US navy base at
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, died on Saturday in apparent suicides, the US
military said.

"Two Saudis and one Yemeni, each located in Camp 1, were found
unresponsive and not breathing in their cells by guards," US Southern
Command said in a statement.

The military said attempts to resuscitate the detainees failed and
they were pronounced dead by a physician at Guantanamo, which holds just
under 500 foreigners captured mainly in the US war against the Taliban in
Afghanistan.

Facing indefinite detention with none of the rights afforded formal
prisoners of war, or criminal suspects in the US justice system, dozens of
the detainees have undertaken hunger strikes.

Several have also attempted suicide while at least one fake suicide
attempt was staged recently to trick prison guards into going into a cell
where detainees intended to ambush them.

The names of the deceased - the first deaths at Guantanamo since it
started being used as a prison camp in 2002 - were not released.

The US military said the bodies were being treated "with the utmost
respect." An investigation had begun, it said.

The United States has faced criticism from human rights groups and
some of its allies for indefinitely holding prisoners at Guantanamo.
President George W. Bush has said he would like to close the detention
center.

-------




On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:43:21 -0700, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:

>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:4489fd16$0$26892$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>> news:j6kig.473562$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>
>>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4489afc8$0$26872$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>>> news:EHiig.473439$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>>
>>>>> there will lways be "nutty geeks".
>>>>> Games don't kill.
>>>>> Castro does.
>>>>
>>>> Must be something like Saddam being accused of killing people and then
>>>> having a prosecution witness say the people are not dead,
>>>
>>> You mean like the Kurdish people of and the gas Attacks?
>>
>> You mean the attack with gas provided by the US from US chemical stores
>
> Nope.
> Made with chemicals bought from a Dutch businessman and "delived" upon
> the
> orders of "chemical Ali" and Saddam.
>
>> As I said, you can prove anything if you make up and pick and choose
>> your
>> facts.
>
> Facts:
> - delivered on the orders of Saddam and "chemical Ali"
> Profile: 'Chemical Ali'
> Known as "Chemical Ali" for his role in gas attacks on northern Iraq
> during
> the offensive against the Kurds in 1987, Ali Hassan al-Majid was an
> important powerbroker in Saddam Hussein's Iraq.
> As the Iraqi president's paternal cousin, he sat astride two pillars of
> the
> Iraqi regime - Saddam Hussein's extended family and the Baath Party.
>
> Before the fall of the regime, Arab press reports cast him in the part
> of a
> family kingmaker, playing a significant role in the simmering rivalry for
> succession between Saddam Hussein's sons, Qusay and Uday.
>
> After several years without a ministerial position, al-Majid left his
> behind-the-scenes role in the upper strata of the Baath Party as Saddam
> Hussein placed Iraq on a war footing.
>
> In March 2003, he was appointed to head the southern region - one of four
> senior commanders reporting directly to the president.
>
> A month later, British officials said they believed he had been killed
> in a
> coalition air strike in the southern city of Basra.
>
> But in June, US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld conceded that he did
> not know whether he was dead or alive.
>
> Two months later, US military officials announced that they had captured
> him.
>
> Kurdish offensive
>
> Al-Majid was appointed governor of northern Iraq in March 1987, marking
> the
> beginning of a sustained offensive, known as the "Anfal Campaign", by
> Iraqi
> troops against the Kurdish population.
>
> Kurdish organisations describe the events which followed as genocide.
>
> A decree signed by al-Majid, dated 3 June 1987, stated: "Within their
> jurisdiction, the armed forces must kill any human being or animal
> present
> in these areas."
>
> Human rights campaigners say the Iraqi army then proceeded to kill tens
> of
> thousands of Kurdish civilians in gas attacks and by summary execution.
>
> 'Governor of Kuwait'
>
> Iraq's invasion of Kuwait ended al-Majid's career in the north.
>
> Following the annexation of the Gulf state in August 1990 he became
> effectively "governor" of what Baghdad called "Iraq's 19th governorate".
>
> Although he was replaced in that position in November 1990, in March 1991
> al-Majid was promoted to minister of the interior.
>
> The British pressure group Indict accuses him of crimes against humanity
> for
> his role in suppressing the Kurdish and Shia-led uprising which broke
> out as
> Iraqi troops fled Kuwait.
>
> After a period as defence minister from 1991 to 1995, he was relieved of
> his
> ministerial duties.
>
> However, he continued to hold important Baath Party posts, as a member of
> the ruling Revolution Command Council and leader of the Baath Party in
> Salah-al-Din governorate, which included Saddam Hussein's home town of
> Tikrit.
>
> Family defectors
>
> Al-Majid's position was threatened in 1995, when two of his nephews,
> Saddam
> Hussein's sons-in-law, Hussein Kamil al-Majid and Saddam Kamil al-Majid,
> defected to Jordan with their families.
>
> He then personally led the so-called "jihadi offensive", which resulted
> in
> the murder of the two brothers, their father (his own brother) and
> several
> others for treason.
>
> Family feuds during peace time did not prevent Saddam Hussein from
> turning
> to trusted relatives for support in times of war.
>
> Renewed US and British bombing raids on Iraq in December 1998 saw
> al-Majid
> return to Iraq's sensitive border with Kuwait. He was appointed as
> commander
> of a newly-formed southern region - a role he would take up again in
> 2003,
> as Iraq once again prepared for war.
>
> BBC Monitoring , based in Caversham in southern England, selects and
> translates information from radio, television, press, news agencies and
> the
> Internet from 150 countries in more than 70 languages.
>
> Story from BBC NEWS:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/2855349.stm
>
> Published: 2003/08/21 12:28:10 GMT
>
> - Dutch busonessman:
>
> Killing of Iraq Kurds 'genocide'
> A court in The Hague has ruled that the killing of thousands of Kurds in
> Iraq in the 1980s was an act of genocide.
> The ruling came in the case of Dutch trader Frans van Anraat, who was
> given
> a 15-year sentence for selling chemicals to Saddam Hussein's regime.
>
> He was found guilty of complicity in war crimes over a 1988 chemical
> attack
> that killed more than 5,000 people, but acquitted of genocide charges.
>
> It is the first trial to deal with war crimes against Kurds in Iraq and
> Iran.
>
>
>
> 'Intent to destroy'
>
> Dozens of ethnic Kurds gathered in the packed courtroom to hear the
> verdict.
>
>
> The court has no other conclusion than that these attacks were
> committed with the intent to destroy the Kurdish population of Iraq
> Court ruling
>
> Before van Anraat could be convicted, the judges had to decide whether
> the
> 1988 attack on Iraqi Kurds in Halabja amounted to genocide.
>
> According to the 1948 Geneva Convention, genocide is defined as "acts
> committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,
> ethnic, racial or religious group".
>
> The Dutch court said it considered "legally and convincingly proven that
> the
> Kurdish population meets requirement under Genocide Conventions as an
> ethnic
> group".
>
> "The court has no other conclusion than that these attacks were committed
> with the intent to destroy the Kurdish population of Iraq," the ruling
> said.
>
> However, observers say the Dutch court's decision may not have much
> influence on the Iraqi tribunal, which is hearing the trial of Saddam
> Hussein.
>
> The court is believed to be preparing a case against him for the use of
> chemical weapons in Halabja in northern Iraq.
>
> 'Contribution'
>
> Van Anraat was not in court to hear the verdict.
>
>
> He was charged with supplying thousands of tons of raw materials for
> chemical weapons used in the 1980-1988 war against Iran, and against
> Iraqi
> Kurds.
> The court found him guilty of aiding war crimes, as "his deliveries
> facilitated the attacks".
>
> "He cannot counter with the argument that this would have happened even
> without his contribution," the presiding judge said.
>
> However, the judges ruled that van Anraat was not aware of the genocidal
> intentions of the Iraqi regime when he sold the ingredients for poison
> gas.
>
> Victims' relatives clapped when the sentence was read out, while dozens
> danced in a circle to drums outside the court.
>
> Defence lawyers said they would appeal against the sentence, which was
> the
> maximum that could be imposed for the charge.
>
> The 63-year-old was arrested in 1989 in Italy at the request of the US
> Government.
>
> He was later released and fled to Iraq, where he remained until 2003.
>
> He was arrested in December 2004 at his Amsterdam home.
>
>
> Send us your comments using the form below.
>
> This decision is historic because it recognizes at least one act of
> genocide
> against Kurds perpetrated in Iraq by the regime of Saddam Hussein. There
> are
> of course other genocidal campaigns in Iraq but this is justice for those
> innocent victims and a legal recognition of an act of genocide against
> Kurds. As a Kurd who has lost some dear relatives in the deadly attack of
> Halabja in 1988, I'm grateful for the Dutch court for its unbiased and
> conscientious verdict. The next step should be compensation of living
> relatives of Halabja victims.
> Dr Nazhad Khasraw Hawramany, Basel, Switzerland
>
> Perhaps a timely reminder to those who like taking a swipe at the
> American
> and British leaders. Maybe people should reflect on this when they start
> comparing freely elected Western leaders with Saddam or when considering
> whether he has a "fair" trial.
> Peter, Provincia di Treviso, Italy
>
> It's about time someone recognized at the world level that the Kurds have
> been persecuted and harassed ever since the UK artificially drew country
> lines in that region. I supported the Kurds during the first Iraq War to
> get
> them safely back to their homes in Kirkuk among others.
> Tony Carey, Edgewater, USA
>
> Well done the Dutch! This is a momentous day indeed. As a lawyer, and
> more
> particularly as a Kurd, the War Crimes' Court's finding of genocide
> today is
> a watershed. Hopefully it will be the first of many cases to try those
> "businessmen" suppliers of nefarious weaponry to Saddam's regime. This is
> only the beginning of course.
> Azad, UK, Edinburgh
>
>
>
>
>
> Name
> Your E-mail address
> Town & Country
> Comments
>
>
>
> Story from BBC NEWS:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4555000.stm
>
> Published: 2005/12/23 17:01:30 GMT
>
> So "kiddo": read up on the facts before you make a bigger fool of
> yourself.
>
> PL
>
>



--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Observador]

Thats a shame, ONLY three!

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:45:39 -0700, Pedro
<***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org> wrote:

>
>Being under US protection is hazardous to your health if you happen to be
>a Muslim.
>
>Three Guantánamo Detainees Committed Suicide, Military Says
> Reuters
>
> Saturday 10 June 2006
>
> Miami - Three foreign prisoners being held at the US navy base at
>Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, died on Saturday in apparent suicides, the US
>military said.
>
> "Two Saudis and one Yemeni, each located in Camp 1, were found
>unresponsive and not breathing in their cells by guards," US Southern
>Command said in a statement.
>
> The military said attempts to resuscitate the detainees failed and
>they were pronounced dead by a physician at Guantanamo, which holds just
>under 500 foreigners captured mainly in the US war against the Taliban in
>Afghanistan.
>
> Facing indefinite detention with none of the rights afforded formal
>prisoners of war, or criminal suspects in the US justice system, dozens of
>the detainees have undertaken hunger strikes.
>
> Several have also attempted suicide while at least one fake suicide
>attempt was staged recently to trick prison guards into going into a cell
>where detainees intended to ambush them.
>
> The names of the deceased - the first deaths at Guantanamo since it
>started being used as a prison camp in 2002 - were not released.
>
> The US military said the bodies were being treated "with the utmost
>respect." An investigation had begun, it said.
>
> The United States has faced criticism from human rights groups and
>some of its allies for indefinitely holding prisoners at Guantanamo.
>President George W. Bush has said he would like to close the detention
>center.
>
> -------
>
>
>
>
>On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 03:43:21 -0700, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:4489fd16$0$26892$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>> news:j6kig.473562$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>
>>>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:4489afc8$0$26872$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
>>>>> news:EHiig.473439$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> there will lways be "nutty geeks".
>>>>>> Games don't kill.
>>>>>> Castro does.
>>>>>
>>>>> Must be something like Saddam being accused of killing people and then
>>>>> having a prosecution witness say the people are not dead,
>>>>
>>>> You mean like the Kurdish people of and the gas Attacks?
>>>
>>> You mean the attack with gas provided by the US from US chemical stores
>>
>> Nope.
>> Made with chemicals bought from a Dutch businessman and "delived" upon
>> the
>> orders of "chemical Ali" and Saddam.
>>
>>> As I said, you can prove anything if you make up and pick and choose
>>> your
>>> facts.
>>
>> Facts:
>> - delivered on the orders of Saddam and "chemical Ali"
>> Profile: 'Chemical Ali'
>> Known as "Chemical Ali" for his role in gas attacks on northern Iraq
>> during
>> the offensive against the Kurds in 1987, Ali Hassan al-Majid was an
>> important powerbroker in Saddam Hussein's Iraq.
>> As the Iraqi president's paternal cousin, he sat astride two pillars of
>> the
>> Iraqi regime - Saddam Hussein's extended family and the Baath Party.
>>
>> Before the fall of the regime, Arab press reports cast him in the part
>> of a
>> family kingmaker, playing a significant role in the simmering rivalry for
>> succession between Saddam Hussein's sons, Qusay and Uday.
>>
>> After several years without a ministerial position, al-Majid left his
>> behind-the-scenes role in the upper strata of the Baath Party as Saddam
>> Hussein placed Iraq on a war footing.
>>
>> In March 2003, he was appointed to head the southern region - one of four
>> senior commanders reporting directly to the president.
>>
>> A month later, British officials said they believed he had been killed
>> in a
>> coalition air strike in the southern city of Basra.
>>
>> But in June, US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld conceded that he did
>> not know whether he was dead or alive.
>>
>> Two months later, US military officials announced that they had captured
>> him.
>>
>> Kurdish offensive
>>
>> Al-Majid was appointed governor of northern Iraq in March 1987, marking
>> the
>> beginning of a sustained offensive, known as the "Anfal Campaign", by
>> Iraqi
>> troops against the Kurdish population.
>>
>> Kurdish organisations describe the events which followed as genocide.
>>
>> A decree signed by al-Majid, dated 3 June 1987, stated: "Within their
>> jurisdiction, the armed forces must kill any human being or animal
>> present
>> in these areas."
>>
>> Human rights campaigners say the Iraqi army then proceeded to kill tens
>> of
>> thousands of Kurdish civilians in gas attacks and by summary execution.
>>
>> 'Governor of Kuwait'
>>
>> Iraq's invasion of Kuwait ended al-Majid's career in the north.
>>
>> Following the annexation of the Gulf state in August 1990 he became
>> effectively "governor" of what Baghdad called "Iraq's 19th governorate".
>>
>> Although he was replaced in that position in November 1990, in March 1991
>> al-Majid was promoted to minister of the interior.
>>
>> The British pressure group Indict accuses him of crimes against humanity
>> for
>> his role in suppressing the Kurdish and Shia-led uprising which broke
>> out as
>> Iraqi troops fled Kuwait.
>>
>> After a period as defence minister from 1991 to 1995, he was relieved of
>> his
>> ministerial duties.
>>
>> However, he continued to hold important Baath Party posts, as a member of
>> the ruling Revolution Command Council and leader of the Baath Party in
>> Salah-al-Din governorate, which included Saddam Hussein's home town of
>> Tikrit.
>>
>> Family defectors
>>
>> Al-Majid's position was threatened in 1995, when two of his nephews,
>> Saddam
>> Hussein's sons-in-law, Hussein Kamil al-Majid and Saddam Kamil al-Majid,
>> defected to Jordan with their families.
>>
>> He then personally led the so-called "jihadi offensive", which resulted
>> in
>> the murder of the two brothers, their father (his own brother) and
>> several
>> others for treason.
>>
>> Family feuds during peace time did not prevent Saddam Hussein from
>> turning
>> to trusted relatives for support in times of war.
>>
>> Renewed US and British bombing raids on Iraq in December 1998 saw
>> al-Majid
>> return to Iraq's sensitive border with Kuwait. He was appointed as
>> commander
>> of a newly-formed southern region - a role he would take up again in
>> 2003,
>> as Iraq once again prepared for war.
>>
>> BBC Monitoring , based in Caversham in southern England, selects and
>> translates information from radio, television, press, news agencies and
>> the
>> Internet from 150 countries in more than 70 languages.
>>
>> Story from BBC NEWS:
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/2855349.stm
>>
>> Published: 2003/08/21 12:28:10 GMT
>>
>> - Dutch busonessman:
>>
>> Killing of Iraq Kurds 'genocide'
>> A court in The Hague has ruled that the killing of thousands of Kurds in
>> Iraq in the 1980s was an act of genocide.
>> The ruling came in the case of Dutch trader Frans van Anraat, who was
>> given
>> a 15-year sentence for selling chemicals to Saddam Hussein's regime.
>>
>> He was found guilty of complicity in war crimes over a 1988 chemical
>> attack
>> that killed more than 5,000 people, but acquitted of genocide charges.
>>
>> It is the first trial to deal with war crimes against Kurds in Iraq and
>> Iran.
>>
>>
>>
>> 'Intent to destroy'
>>
>> Dozens of ethnic Kurds gathered in the packed courtroom to hear the
>> verdict.
>>
>>
>> The court has no other conclusion than that these attacks were
>> committed with the intent to destroy the Kurdish population of Iraq
>> Court ruling
>>
>> Before van Anraat could be convicted, the judges had to decide whether
>> the
>> 1988 attack on Iraqi Kurds in Halabja amounted to genocide.
>>
>> According to the 1948 Geneva Convention, genocide is defined as "acts
>> committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,
>> ethnic, racial or religious group".
>>
>> The Dutch court said it considered "legally and convincingly proven that
>> the
>> Kurdish population meets requirement under Genocide Conventions as an
>> ethnic
>> group".
>>
>> "The court has no other conclusion than that these attacks were committed
>> with the intent to destroy the Kurdish population of Iraq," the ruling
>> said.
>>
>> However, observers say the Dutch court's decision may not have much
>> influence on the Iraqi tribunal, which is hearing the trial of Saddam
>> Hussein.
>>
>> The court is believed to be preparing a case against him for the use of
>> chemical weapons in Halabja in northern Iraq.
>>
>> 'Contribution'
>>
>> Van Anraat was not in court to hear the verdict.
>>
>>
>> He was charged with supplying thousands of tons of raw materials for
>> chemical weapons used in the 1980-1988 war against Iran, and against
>> Iraqi
>> Kurds.
>> The court found him guilty of aiding war crimes, as "his deliveries
>> facilitated the attacks".
>>
>> "He cannot counter with the argument that this would have happened even
>> without his contribution," the presiding judge said.
>>
>> However, the judges ruled that van Anraat was not aware of the genocidal
>> intentions of the Iraqi regime when he sold the ingredients for poison
>> gas.
>>
>> Victims' relatives clapped when the sentence was read out, while dozens
>> danced in a circle to drums outside the court.
>>
>> Defence lawyers said they would appeal against the sentence, which was
>> the
>> maximum that could be imposed for the charge.
>>
>> The 63-year-old was arrested in 1989 in Italy at the request of the US
>> Government.
>>
>> He was later released and fled to Iraq, where he remained until 2003.
>>
>> He was arrested in December 2004 at his Amsterdam home.
>>
>>
>> Send us your comments using the form below.
>>
>> This decision is historic because it recognizes at least one act of
>> genocide
>> against Kurds perpetrated in Iraq by the regime of Saddam Hussein. There
>> are
>> of course other genocidal campaigns in Iraq but this is justice for those
>> innocent victims and a legal recognition of an act of genocide against
>> Kurds. As a Kurd who has lost some dear relatives in the deadly attack of
>> Halabja in 1988, I'm grateful for the Dutch court for its unbiased and
>> conscientious verdict. The next step should be compensation of living
>> relatives of Halabja victims.
>> Dr Nazhad Khasraw Hawramany, Basel, Switzerland
>>
>> Perhaps a timely reminder to those who like taking a swipe at the
>> American
>> and British leaders. Maybe people should reflect on this when they start
>> comparing freely elected Western leaders with Saddam or when considering
>> whether he has a "fair" trial.
>> Peter, Provincia di Treviso, Italy
>>
>> It's about time someone recognized at the world level that the Kurds have
>> been persecuted and harassed ever since the UK artificially drew country
>> lines in that region. I supported the Kurds during the first Iraq War to
>> get
>> them safely back to their homes in Kirkuk among others.
>> Tony Carey, Edgewater, USA
>>
>> Well done the Dutch! This is a momentous day indeed. As a lawyer, and
>> more
>> particularly as a Kurd, the War Crimes' Court's finding of genocide
>> today is
>> a watershed. Hopefully it will be the first of many cases to try those
>> "businessmen" suppliers of nefarious weaponry to Saddam's regime. This is
>> only the beginning of course.
>> Azad, UK, Edinburgh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Name
>> Your E-mail address
>> Town & Country
>> Comments
>>
>>
>>
>> Story from BBC NEWS:
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4555000.stm
>>
>> Published: 2005/12/23 17:01:30 GMT
>>
>> So "kiddo": read up on the facts before you make a bigger fool of
>> yourself.
>>
>> PL
>>
>>
>
>
>
>--
>¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[krp]

"Observador" <***@obsi.net> wrote in message
news:***@news.verizon.net...
>
> Thats a shame, ONLY three!

Yeah too bad isn't it?

[Pedro]

You just confirmed the kind of low class scumbag I thought you were.

Thanks for confirming my worst prejudices.


On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:48:41 -0700, krp <***@verizon.net> wrote:

>
> "Observador" <***@obsi.net> wrote in message
> news:***@news.verizon.net...
>>
>> Thats a shame, ONLY three!
>
> Yeah too bad isn't it?
>
>



--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[krp]

"Pedro" <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org> wrote in message
news:***@cx214697-a...
>
> Being under US protection is hazardous to your health if you happen to be
> a Muslim.
>
> Three Guantánamo Detainees Committed Suicide, Military Says
> Reuters
>
> Saturday 10 June 2006
>
> Miami - Three foreign prisoners being held at the US navy base at
> Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, died on Saturday in apparent suicides, the US
> military said.
>
> "Two Saudis and one Yemeni, each located in Camp 1, were found
> unresponsive and not breathing in their cells by guards," US Southern
> Command said in a statement.

Awwww. But you should be happy they each got 72 VIRGINS didn't they?

[Pedro]

God you're lazy . . . .here some quick snippets . . . you gotta love this
country!


Anti Defamation League.

http://www.adl.org/main_Extremism/immigration_extremists.htm?Multi_page_sections=sHeading_6




Human Rights advocates have been talking about this for decades . . .

Hunting of Mexicans along US/Mexico Border Escalates - Two Dead



Los Angeles, Alta California - October 18, 2002 - (ACN) La Voz de Aztlan
has just been informed by the Mexican Consulate in Tucson, Arizona that a
group of Mexican migrants came under a "sniper" attack near the town of
Red Rock, Arizona killing two and injuring an unknown number of others.
The consulate spokeswoman Dulce Mascareño said that the group was about 6
kilometers from Interstate Highway 10 in Pinal County yesterday when a
vehicle approached them and fired a number of shots from a distance.

The Pinal County Sheriff's Department has confirmed the killing of two
Mexicans that were part of a larger group traveling together. The vehicle
nor the shooters have been identified by the police. The Sheriffs estimate
that the two dead were part of a group of twelve.

Dulce Mascareño of the Mexican Consulate said that a 32 year old from the
State of Mexico, who survived the attack, was placed under the protection
of the consulate. She added that he will remain in the United States in
order to bring charges against the assailants when and if they are
captured.

Humanitarian organizations are presently searching the desert for at least
6 who, according to the survivor under the protection of the Mexican
Consulate, were injured by the fusillade of bullets. The total number of
dead may be greater after the incident is completely investigated.

This cowardly "hunting down" of Mexican workers crossing the border is
similar to another that occurred near the border town of Sasabe, Arizona
on May 12, 2000. In this case, two Anglos on horseback and hunting rifles
ambushed a group of Mexican migrant workers crossing the border. One of
the survivors, 20 year old Miguel Angel Palofox Aguerrin of Guasave,
Sinaloa managed to crawl back to Mexico with half of his face torn from
his skull. He informed Mexican authorities that four of his friends may
have been killed. No bodies were ever recovered from this arid part of the
Arizona desert.

The situation had been relatively calm along the US/Mexico border, but
recently anti-Mexican hate groups in the US have been escalating their
poisonous anti-immigrant rhetoric. Among these xenophobes are Congressman
Tom Tancredo of Colorado, Jewish Defense League member Glenn Spencer who
is the leader of a vehemently racist organization called American Patrol
and the vile Arizona vigilante rancher Roger "El Asesino" Barnett. All
three have ties. Spencer and Barnett meet regularly to plan actions
against Mexicans. By and large these terrorists are largely responsible
for inflaming the anti-Mexican hate of organized snipers and hunters of
Mexicans.

Due to the escalating "sniping" of Mexican, Latino and other immigrants in
the USA, it is advised that families take extra precautions while
outdoors. Also, preparations should be made in case the situation gets out
of hand. Male family members should be prepared in case a defense of the
community becomes necessary.



and

Border Crossing Reopens After Shooting

SAN DIEGO, Calif., May 19, 2006
(AP) The world's busiest border crossing reopened early Friday following a
nine-hour closure that occurred after federal authorities shot and killed
the driver of a car headed for Mexico, officials said.

The shooting took place on southbound Interstate 5 around 3:30 p.m.
Thursday about 50 feet north of the San Ysidro Port of Entry, which links
Tijuana, Mexico with San Diego. The crossing reopened around 12:40 a.m.
Friday, according to the California Highway Patrol.

The driver, who was not identified, was pronounced dead at the scene with
multiple gunshot wounds, said Maurice Luque, a spokesman for the San Diego
Fire-Rescue Department. No other injuries were reported.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents began following a black sport
utility vehicle after somebody reported seeing it pick up suspected
illegal immigrants near the U.S. side of the Otay Mesa border crossing,
said Lt. Kevin Rooney of San Diego Police Department.

As traffic backed up near the border, the vehicle stopped on the shoulder.
When agents approached, the suspect "began to drive off and he veered hard
to the left, trying to get back in traffic," Rooney said. Two agents then
opened fire, he said.

Five passengers in the vehicle, whose identities were not released, were
taken into custody and were being interrogated, Rooney said.

Anna Valderrama of Tijuana, Mexico, who was about four vehicles back when
the shooting occurred, said she was stuck in her car for more than two
hours.

"I was going to eat with my family," said Valderrama. "I feel desperate to
go home."



©MMVI, The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be
published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 11:01:08 -0700, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:

> Pedro wrote:
>> On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 05:14:03 -0700, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Pedro" <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org> wrote in message
>>> news:***@cx214697-a...
>>>
>>>> That is less than the "illegals" killed on the US border!
>>>
>>>
>>> Killed by whom?
>> Neo'nazi and other white supremacists,
>
> any links to data?
>
> > there is even a video game
>> called "getting your beaner." This is a great country!
>
> there will lways be "nutty geeks".
> Games don't kill.
> Castro does.
>
> For more on those that died trying to leave Cuba:
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/13_de_marzo.htm
>
> PL
>



--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Morpheus]

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:43:43 -0700, Pedro <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org>
wrote:

Victurd, is this the best that you can do? I guess that if I showed
you the reports about Chemo Soto hunting for the chupacabras in
Canovanas then that would be irrefutable proof that such a thing
exists, right? QUE CLASE DE MAMAO ERES, VICTURD?

>SAN DIEGO, Calif., May 19, 2006
>(AP) The world's busiest border crossing reopened early Friday following a
>nine-hour closure that occurred after federal authorities shot and killed
>the driver of a car headed for Mexico, officials said.

Wait a minute... a car headed FOR Mexico? Then this article defeats
your assertion, because it proves that we want the illegal immigrants
in our country so much that we shoot them when they try to leave!
Could you be a bigger idiot, Victurd?

[Pedro]

Guess who is responsible for the Iraqi insurgency . . . yep, you guessed
right, the mad neocons sorrounding the Bush presidency.



Unreported: The Zarqawi Invitation
By Greg Palast
t r u t h o u t | Report
1. Friday 09 June 2006
They got him - the big, bad, beheading berserker in Iraq. But, something's
gone unreported in all the glee over getting Zarqawi - who invited him
into Iraq in the first place?
If you prefer your fairy tales unsoiled by facts, read no further. If you
want the uncomfortable truth, begin with this: A phone call to Baghdad to
Saddam's Palace on the night of April 21, 2003. It was Secretary of
Defense Donald Rumsfeld on a secure line from Washington to General Jay
Garner.
The General had arrives in Baghdad just hours before to take charge of the
newly occupied nation. The message from Rumsfeld was not a heartwarming
welcome. Rummy told Garner, Don't unpack, Jack - you're fired.
What had Garner done? The many-starred general had been sent by the
President himself to take charge of a deeply dangerous mission. Iraq was
tense but relatively peaceful. Garner's job was to keep the peace and
bring democracy.
Unfortunately for the general, he took the President at his word. But the
general was wrong. "Peace" and "Democracy" were the slogans.
"My preference," Garner told me in his understated manner, "was to put the
Iraqis in charge as soon as we can and do it in some form of elections."
But elections were not in The Plan.
The Plan was a 101-page document to guide the long-term future of the land
we'd just conquered. There was nothing in it about democracy or elections
or safety. There was, rather, a detailed schedule for selling off "all
[Iraq's] state assets" - and Iraq, that's just about everything -
"especially," said The Plan, "the oil and supporting industries."
Especially the oil.
There was more than oil to sell off. The Plan included the sale of Iraq's
banks, and weirdly, changing it's copyright laws and other odd items that
made the plan look less like a program for Iraq to get on its feet than a
program for corporate looting of the nation's assets. (And indeed, we
discovered at BBC, behind many of the odder elements - copyright and tax
code changes - was the hand of lobbyist Jack Abramoff's associate Grover
Norquist.)
But Garner didn't think much of The Plan, he told me when we met a year
later in Washington. He had other things on his mind. "You prevent
epidemics, you start the food distribution program to prevent famine."
Seizing title and ownership of Iraq's oil fields was not on Garner's
must-do list. He let that be known to Washington. "I don't think [Iraqis]
need to go by the U.S. plan, I think that what we need to do is set an
Iraqi government that represents the freely elected will of the people."
He added, "It's their country, their oil."
Apparently, the Secretary of Defense disagreed. So did lobbyist Norquist.
And Garner incurred their fury by getting carried away with the
"democracy" idea: he called for quick elections - within 90 days of the
taking of Baghdad.
But Garner's 90-days-to-elections commitment ran straight into the oil
sell-off program. Annex D of the plan indicated that would take at least
270 days - at least 9 months.
Worse, Garner was brokering a truce between Sunnis, Shias and Kurds. They
were about to begin what Garner called a "Big Tent" meeting to hammer out
the details and set the election date. He figured he had 90 days to get it
done before the factions started slitting each other's throats.
But a quick election would mean the end of the state-asset sell-off plan:
An Iraqi-controlled government would never go along with what would
certainly amount to foreign corporations swallowing their entire economy.
Especially the oil. Garner had spent years in Iraq, in charge of the
Northern Kurdish zone and knew Iraqis well. He was certain that an
asset-and-oil grab, "privatizations," would cause a sensitive population
to take up the gun. "That's just one fight you don't want to take on right
now."
But that's just the fight the neo-cons at Defense wanted. And in
Rumsfeld's replacement for Garner, they had a man itching for the fight.
Paul Bremer III had no experience on the ground in Iraq, but he had one
unbeatable credential that Garner lacked: Bremer had served as Managing
Director of Kissinger and Associates.
In April 2003, Bremer instituted democracy Bush style: he canceled
elections and appointed the entire government himself. Two months later,
Bremer ordered a halt to all municipal elections including the crucial
vote to Shia seeking to select a mayor in the city of Najaf. The
front-runner, moderate Shia Asad Sultan Abu Gilal warned, "If they don't
give us freedom, what will we do? We have patience, but not for long."
Local Shias formed the "Mahdi Army," and within a year, provoked by
Bremer's shutting their paper, attacked and killed 21 U.S. soldiers.
The insurgency had begun. But Bremer's job was hardly over. There were
Sunnis to go after. He issued "Order Number One: De-Ba'athification." In
effect, this became "De-Sunni-fication."
Saddam's generals, mostly Sunnis, who had, we learned, secretly
collaborated with the US invasion and now expected their reward found
themselves hunted and arrested. Falah Aljibury, an Iraqi-born US resident
who helped with the pre-invasion brokering, told me, "U.S. forces
imprisoned all those we named as political leaders," who stopped Iraq's
army from firing on U.S. troops.
Aljibury's main concern was that busting Iraqi collaborators and Ba'athist
big shots was a gift "to the Wahabis," by which he meant the foreign
insurgents, who now gained experienced military commanders, Sunnis, who
now had no choice but to fight the US-installed regime or face arrest,
ruin or death. They would soon link up with the Sunni-defending Wahabi,
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who was committed to destroying "Shia snakes."
And the oil fields? It was, Aljibury noted, when word got out about the
plans to sell off the oil fields (thanks to loose lips of the US-appointed
oil minister) that pipelines began to blow. Although he had been at the
center of planning for invasion, Aljibury now saw the greed-crazed grab
for the oil fields as the fuel for a civil war that would rip his country
to pieces:
"Insurgents," he said, "and those who wanted to destabilize a new Iraq
have used this as means of saying, 'Look, you're losing your country.
You're losing your leadership. You're losing all of your resources to a
bunch of wealthy people. A bunch of billionaires in the world want to take
you over and make your life miserable.' And we saw an increase in the
bombing of oil facilities, pipelines, of course, built on - built on the
premise that privatization [of oil] is coming."
General Garner, watching the insurgency unfold from the occupation
authority's provocations, told me, in his understated manner, "I'm a
believer that you don't want to end the day with more enemies than you
started with."
But you can't have a war president without a war. And you can't have a war
without enemies. "Bring 'em on," our Commander-in-Chief said. And Zarqawi
answered the call.
--------
Greg Palast is the author of Armed Madhouse out this week from Penguin
Dutton, from which this is adapted. Armed Madhouse: Who's Afraid of Osama
Wolf?, China Floats Bush Sinks, the Scheme to Steal '08, No Child's Behind
Left and other Dispatches from the Front Lines of the Class War. Order it
now.













On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 11:01:08 -0700, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:

> Pedro wrote:
>> On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 05:14:03 -0700, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Pedro" <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org> wrote in message
>>> news:***@cx214697-a...
>>>
>>>> That is less than the "illegals" killed on the US border!
>>>
>>>
>>> Killed by whom?
>> Neo'nazi and other white supremacists,
>
> any links to data?
>
> > there is even a video game
>> called "getting your beaner." This is a great country!
>
> there will lways be "nutty geeks".
> Games don't kill.
> Castro does.
>
> For more on those that died trying to leave Cuba:
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
> http://www.cubaverdad.net/13_de_marzo.htm
>
> PL
>



--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Morpheus]

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 10:57:30 -0700, Pedro <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org>
wrote:

>Neo'nazi and other white supremacists

Victurd, could you show us even ONE SINGLE link to a news article
about any illegal immigrant killed crossing the border by white
supremacists? I bet you won't.

> there is even a video game called
>"getting your beaner." This is a great country!

I have one called "Destroy All Humans" and yet I have not seen any
green aliens roaming the streets in Puerto Rico killing everybody. And
if this country is so bad, why are MILLIONS of people risking getting
"killed by neo nazis and white supremacists at the border" just to
come here? Furthermore, WHY HAVE YOU BEEN THERE FOR MORE THAN 3O
YEARS, VICTURD???????????

[Pedro]

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:07:37 -0700, Morpheus <red-or-***@matrix.com>
wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 10:57:30 -0700, Pedro <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Neo'nazi and other white supremacists
>
> Victurd, could you show us even ONE SINGLE link to a news article
> about any illegal immigrant killed crossing the border by white
> supremacists? I bet you won't.
>
>> there is even a video game called
>> "getting your beaner." This is a great country!
>
> I have one called "Destroy All Humans" and yet I have not seen any
> green aliens roaming the streets in Puerto Rico killing everybody. And
> if this country is so bad, why are MILLIONS of people risking getting
> "killed by neo nazis and white supremacists at the border" just to
> come here? Furthermore, WHY HAVE YOU BEEN THERE FOR MORE THAN 3O
> YEARS, VICTURD???????????


I also have one, destroy pedophiles, especially the PNP kind.



--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Morpheus]

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:41:53 -0700, Pedro <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org>
wrote:

>I also have one, destroy pedophiles, especially the PNP kind.

Something related to your childhood experiences with your father's
friends and relatives?

[Pedro]

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 10:18:12 -0700, Morpheus <red-or-***@matrix.com>
wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:41:53 -0700, Pedro <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I also have one, destroy pedophiles, especially the PNP kind.
>
> Something related to your childhood experiences with your father's
> friends and relatives?

Tu nunca fuiste mi padre.



--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Morpheus]

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:47:08 -0700, Pedro <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org>
wrote:

>Tu nunca fuiste mi padre.

Eso tiene que ser cierto, porque yo nunca chingue con MARRANAS!

[John Brown]

Morpheus wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:47:08 -0700, Pedro <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Tu nunca fuiste mi padre.
>
>
> Eso tiene que ser cierto, porque yo nunca chingue con MARRANAS!

Tu no chingas nada, a ti te chingan.

[Juan Jimenez]

"Morpheus" <red-or-***@matrix.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:41:53 -0700, Pedro <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org>
> wrote:
>
>>I also have one, destroy pedophiles, especially the PNP kind.
>
> Something related to your childhood experiences with your father's
> friends and relatives?

Probably more to do with the fact that Pedro Queseyó was a pediatrician, and
a lousy one at that. Not even his own staff could stand him when he worked
at san Jorge.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Morpheus]

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:43:12 -0400, "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net>
wrote:

>Probably more to do with the fact that Pedro Queseyó was a pediatrician, and
>a lousy one at that. Not even his own staff could stand him when he worked
>at san Jorge.

And yet, during his more than 20 years in that career, there isn't a
single complaint against him, including any malpractice lawsuit, and
he received hundreds of awards and recognitions for his outstanding
work, being regarded TO THIS DAY as one of the premier pedatric
surgeons on this Island. As for the staff, being a surgeon is NOT a
popularity contest, specially when you are highly skilled and
professional and demand the same high level of quality in the work of
people who work under you. If you can't stand the "heat" of an
operating room, maybe you should find a job teaching, where anybody
can cut the mustard!

[Pedro]

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:27:15 -0700, Morpheus <red-or-***@matrix.com>
wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:43:12 -0400, "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Probably more to do with the fact that Pedro Queseyó was a
>> pediatrician, and
>> a lousy one at that. Not even his own staff could stand him when he
>> worked
>> at san Jorge.
>
> And yet, during his more than 20 years in that career, there isn't a
> single complaint against him, including any malpractice lawsuit, and
> he received hundreds of awards and recognitions for his outstanding
> work, being regarded TO THIS DAY as one of the premier pedatric
> surgeons on this Island. As for the staff, being a surgeon is NOT a
> popularity contest, specially when you are highly skilled and
> professional and demand the same high level of quality in the work of
> people who work under you. If you can't stand the "heat" of an
> operating room, maybe you should find a job teaching, where anybody
> can cut the mustard!


Y quien nombro a este pendejo abogado de Pilleso? Ooooh!





--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Morpheus]

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:45:14 -0700, Pedro <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org>
wrote:

>Y quien nombro a este pendejo abogado de Pilleso? Ooooh!

Pues me nombro la misma persona que te nombro a ti representante y
abogado del CABRON Victor M. Rodriguez Dominguez, con la unica
diferencia que yo SI conozco al Dr. Rossello desde la epoca en que era
solamente cirujano pediatrico, y tu te matas jurando y perjurando que
no conoces al CABRON HIJO DE PUTA Victor M. Rodriguez Dominguez. O
sea, que yo si se de lo que hablo, y tu (supuestamente) no sabes NADA
sobre ese MAMALON de Victurd, verdad "Pedro"?

[Pedro]

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:59:25 -0700, Morpheus <Blue-or-***@matrix.com>
wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:45:14 -0700, Pedro <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Y quien nombro a este pendejo abogado de Pilleso? Ooooh!
>
> Pues me nombro la misma persona que te nombro a ti representante y
> abogado del CABRON Victor M. Rodriguez Dominguez, con la unica
> diferencia que yo SI conozco al Dr. Rossello desde la epoca en que era
> solamente cirujano pediatrico, y tu te matas jurando y perjurando que
> no conoces al CABRON HIJO DE PUTA Victor M. Rodriguez Dominguez. O
> sea, que yo si se de lo que hablo, y tu (supuestamente) no sabes NADA
> sobre ese MAMALON de Victurd, verdad "Pedro"?


Y sigue el patetico Jaime con sus sueños de grandeza, mira cabron, ni tu
puta marida ni tu conocen a el pillo.

Pero si el sabe de tus peripecias . . . y las d etu marida!



--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Morpheus]

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:03:00 -0700, Pedro <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org>
wrote:

>Y sigue el patetico Jaime con sus sueños de grandeza, mira cabron, ni tu
>puta marida ni tu conocen a el pillo.

Vaya, vaya, Victurd. me alegra que admitas que es una "grandeza" para
cualquier persona el conocer personalmente a Rossello! Distinto a ti,
Victurd, yo no tengo que soñar, ni tengo que estar mencionando a
personas que estuvieron en el mismo coliseo conmigo y 25 mil personas
mas como si fueran mis "amigos personales". Mi vida real y las
personas que conozco y con las que comparto a diario son bastante
interesantes, y no tengo ninguna necesidad de estar desfilandola aqui
para sentirme importante, porque eso son cosas que hacen las personas
que viven vidas pateticas y sin relevancia. Y me sospecho que con
toda la informacion que tu tienes sobre ese Jaime Sotomayor al que
tanto miedo le tienes, tu tienes que saber que ese si que tiene que
conocer gente, y mas importante aun, que esa gente lo conoce a el, y
eso te jode y te rejode tu miserable existencia, verdad Victurd?

[Juan Jimenez]

"Morpheus" <red-or-***@matrix.com> wrote in message
news:***@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 11:43:12 -0400, "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Probably more to do with the fact that Pedro Queseyó was a pediatrician,
>>and
>>a lousy one at that. Not even his own staff could stand him when he worked
>>at san Jorge.
>
> And yet, during his more than 20 years in that career, there isn't a
> single complaint against him...

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Only because you go through life wearing the Pedro Queseyó
Gringolas! No complaints? LMAO! HAHAHA!!!




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Ichi]

Wake up, imbecile,,,,,,,

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:44861f9c$0$26845$***@free.teranews.com...
>
> "Ichi" <***@killcommies.com> wrote in message
> news:jAphg.4319$***@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>> You are a lying piece of lefty scum.
>
> "Lefty scum"???? What kind of idiotic 1950's McCartwit crap is that? LOL!
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>

[Juan Jimenez]

Look in the mirror, you prepubescent twit. Better to follow your own advice.

"Ichi" <***@killcommies.com> wrote in message
news:n8Ghg.50255$***@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> Wake up, imbecile,,,,,,,
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:44861f9c$0$26845$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> "Ichi" <***@killcommies.com> wrote in message
>> news:jAphg.4319$***@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>> You are a lying piece of lefty scum.
>>
>> "Lefty scum"???? What kind of idiotic 1950's McCartwit crap is that? LOL!
>>
>>
>> --
>> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>>
>
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Ichi]

You are too low in the human scale commie scum,you should have been
aborted.I hope that someone like me open your brain.

"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:4487318a$0$26777$***@free.teranews.com...
> Look in the mirror, you prepubescent twit. Better to follow your own
> advice.
>
> "Ichi" <***@killcommies.com> wrote in message
> news:n8Ghg.50255$***@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>> Wake up, imbecile,,,,,,,
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:44861f9c$0$26845$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "Ichi" <***@killcommies.com> wrote in message
>>> news:jAphg.4319$***@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>>> You are a lying piece of lefty scum.
>>>
>>> "Lefty scum"???? What kind of idiotic 1950's McCartwit crap is that?
>>> LOL!
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>

[Juan Jimenez]

Your message board incompetence is an inspiration to botched lobotomy
patients everywhere. Clearly, you spend way too much time in darkened rooms
in front of your seven-year-old computer turning a whiter shade of pale. Go
outside once in a while and breathe, before your brain starts to rot from
all that festering stagnation and cognitive dysfunction.

I don't know what makes you such a worthless poster, but it really works!
Does your train of thought have a caboose? Have you ever noticed that
whenever you sit behind a keyboard, some idiot starts typing? You bring to
mind a quote from Josh Billing: "Doesn't know much, but leads the league in
nostril hair."

I'm busy trying to imagine you with a personality. Maybe you'd be less
boring once I got to know you, but I don't want to take that chance. Maybe
you wouldn't come across as such a jellyfish-sucking mental midget if you
didn't eat all those paint chips and lead pencils when you were a kid; if
your weren't so fat that your clothes come in three sizes: Extra Large,
Jumbo, and Oh-My-God-It's-Coming-Towards-Us!, or if you weren't uglier than
the north-facing end of a south-bound mule. Nah, of course you would.

Dullard, do yourself and everyone else who values bandwidth a favor - take a
fatal overdose of your medication.

<plonk!>

"Ichi" <***@killcommies.com> wrote in message
news:DKHhg.50329$***@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> You are too low in the human scale commie scum,you should have been
> aborted.I hope that someone like me open your brain.
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:4487318a$0$26777$***@free.teranews.com...
>> Look in the mirror, you prepubescent twit. Better to follow your own
>> advice.
>>
>> "Ichi" <***@killcommies.com> wrote in message
>> news:n8Ghg.50255$***@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>> Wake up, imbecile,,,,,,,
>>>
>>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>>> news:44861f9c$0$26845$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Ichi" <***@killcommies.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:jAphg.4319$***@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>>>> You are a lying piece of lefty scum.
>>>>
>>>> "Lefty scum"???? What kind of idiotic 1950's McCartwit crap is that?
>>>> LOL!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>>
>
>



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Crusader]

An enormous quantity of poorly written Shit,Who are you trying to impress
with your Marxist bullshit homo?You`ll end up in hell if you aren`t
careful,you know?
And please homo keep it short and concise..


"Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
news:44880bb2$0$26758$***@free.teranews.com...
>

[Pedro]

Cagate en tu puta madre, cabron.



On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:29:10 -0700, Crusader <***@xyz.com> wrote:

> An enormous quantity of poorly written Shit,Who are you trying to
> impress
> with your Marxist bullshit homo?You`ll end up in hell if you aren`t
> careful,you know?
> And please homo keep it short and concise..
>
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
> news:44880bb2$0$26758$***@free.teranews.com...
>>
>



--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Crusader]

I sorry fag, i was`t talking to you but if the shoe fits.........wear it up
your ass! :)

"Pedro" <***@xn--elpeon-zwa.org> wrote in message
news:***@cx214697-a...
> Cagate en tu puta madre, cabron.
>
>
>
> On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:29:10 -0700, Crusader <***@xyz.com> wrote:
>
>> An enormous quantity of poorly written Shit,Who are you trying to
>> impress
>> with your Marxist bullshit homo?You`ll end up in hell if you aren`t
>> careful,you know?
>> And please homo keep it short and concise..
>>
>>
>> "Juan Jimenez" <***@prtc.net> wrote in message
>> news:44880bb2$0$26758$***@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Pedro]

You are right, you are a sorry fag.


On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:28:29 -0700, Crusader <***@xyz.com> wrote:

> I sorry fag, i was`t talking to you but if the shoe fits.........wear it
> up
> your ass! :)

--
¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Juan Jimenez]

"Crusader" <***@xyz.com> wrote in message
news:mCmig.69702$***@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
>I sorry fag, i was`t talking to you...

We know you were talking to yourself. Take your medicine.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com