LCS OS/390

The messages and codes manuals are fairly specific on this error.

What interests me is your licensing for OS/390 on this platform.

To my knowledge, Linux is the only OS that supports LCS that
I've seen that can be run on Hercules. Please correct me
if I'm wrong. I would (and many others on this list) would love
to hear your account of how you licensed OS/390 for use on this
platform.

Please enlighten us.....

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: jr_garrett [mailto:sm57-xkudpzXs/***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 1:15 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

Has anyone successfully established a working connection via LCS
between OS/390 and a parent Windows network? If so, I'd appreciate a
peek at your configuration.

I've got probably 30 hours invested in trying, so far unsuccessfully.
Win XP, Herc 3.00, cygwin 1.5.5-1, latest tuntap, fishpack, and
WinPCap. test.exe pings both ways but TCPIP device refuses to
activate, failing with repeated EZZ4310I 80100044's.

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Paul Raulerson

2003-12-07 17:13:51 UTC

Well, sooner or later someone is going to write a VM or z/OS compatible OS and release it for fee.
After the inevitable legal hassles that will result, the community will have a nice free Operating
system to move forward with. Pretty much the same as happened with Linux I expect.

Now if IBM were smart, they would head that off right away by opening up low cost or hobbyist licenses
for people running Hercules (and by the way, for Flex-ES and UMX and whatever else is around.)

-Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Pierson (Hercules)
To: 'hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org'
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 3:55 AM
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

The messages and codes manuals are fairly specific on this error.

What interests me is your licensing for OS/390 on this platform.

To my knowledge, Linux is the only OS that supports LCS that
I've seen that can be run on Hercules. Please correct me
if I'm wrong. I would (and many others on this list) would love
to hear your account of how you licensed OS/390 for use on this
platform.

Please enlighten us.....

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: jr_garrett [mailto:sm57-xkudpzXs/***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 1:15 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

Has anyone successfully established a working connection via LCS
between OS/390 and a parent Windows network? If so, I'd appreciate a
peek at your configuration.

I've got probably 30 hours invested in trying, so far unsuccessfully.
Win XP, Herc 3.00, cygwin 1.5.5-1, latest tuntap, fishpack, and
WinPCap. test.exe pings both ways but TCPIP device refuses to
activate, failing with repeated EZZ4310I 80100044's.

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Wesley Parish

2003-12-12 10:43:35 UTC

As far as I can see, this community will wind up doing a Berkeley CSRG on the
sources that have been released (rewriting them to handle conditions that the
retired/laid-off sysadmins, etc, regard as elementary and common to todays'
systems), and IBM will find itself a bemused onlooker instead of a
participant.

All of which could be sidestepped by the simple expedient of applying the
ancient "salvage" laws to the concept of "Intellectual Property" - whatever
isn't in present revenue-earning use, is fair game to hobbyists, tinkerers,
etc, who want to learn it ... But unfortunately "Intellectual Property" as
has been "developed" in this last half-century, appears to be a reversion to
Robber-Baron-hood ... when will people ever learn?

Post by Paul Raulerson
Well, sooner or later someone is going to write a VM or z/OS compatible OS
and release it for fee. After the inevitable legal hassles that will
result, the community will have a nice free Operating system to move
forward with. Pretty much the same as happened with Linux I expect.
Now if IBM were smart, they would head that off right away by opening up
low cost or hobbyist licenses for people running Hercules (and by the way,
for Flex-ES and UMX and whatever else is around.)
-Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Pierson (Hercules)
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 3:55 AM
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390
The messages and codes manuals are fairly specific on this error.
What interests me is your licensing for OS/390 on this platform.
To my knowledge, Linux is the only OS that supports LCS that
I've seen that can be run on Hercules. Please correct me
if I'm wrong. I would (and many others on this list) would love
to hear your account of how you licensed OS/390 for use on this
platform.
Please enlighten us.....
Jim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 1:15 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390
Has anyone successfully established a working connection via LCS
between OS/390 and a parent Windows network? If so, I'd appreciate a
peek at your configuration.
I've got probably 30 hours invested in trying, so far unsuccessfully.
Win XP, Herc 3.00, cygwin 1.5.5-1, latest tuntap, fishpack, and
WinPCap. test.exe pings both ways but TCPIP device refuses to
activate, failing with repeated EZZ4310I 80100044's.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love.
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

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Paul Raulerson

2003-12-12 11:05:29 UTC

I'm not so sure it is "robber-baron-hood" thinking that is the problem, or if it is just a matter of image,
or if it is just real deep seated fear of some kind of an impact on profits. You can do real work, today,
under Hercules, even with ancient MVS.

You can do up to date work, today, under Linux/390 running under Hercules, including writing Assembler
programs that operate very efficiently. If it were legal, OS/390 under Hercules would be an acceptable
development or non-mission critical system. I make that distinction NOT because Hercules would be
liable to crash and cause an issue, but because PC hardware, even "server class" PC hardware is
utterly unreliable. (I've NEVER been able to get Hercules compiled and fully running under AIX on a
series machine. That would eliminate the nasty hardware issues though. :)

All of that is scary in a lot of ways. Think of what the normal CEO would think and do if they realized
they might be able to replace their million dollars S/390s with a rank of "cheap" PCs. The really smart ones
would dismiss the possibility, but a few of them would move over to Hercules on PCs running OS/390 and
save MAJOR bucks. They would appear to be a hero, make massive bonus', and be the king of the
little empire - until something went wrong. Then they would blame IBM software or the programmers
or *anything* else they can find to move blame onto. :) I can see why IBM would want to avoid that kind
of situation!

-Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: Wesley Parish
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

As far as I can see, this community will wind up doing a Berkeley CSRG on the
sources that have been released (rewriting them to handle conditions that the
retired/laid-off sysadmins, etc, regard as elementary and common to todays'
systems), and IBM will find itself a bemused onlooker instead of a
participant.

All of which could be sidestepped by the simple expedient of applying the
ancient "salvage" laws to the concept of "Intellectual Property" - whatever
isn't in present revenue-earning use, is fair game to hobbyists, tinkerers,
etc, who want to learn it ... But unfortunately "Intellectual Property" as
has been "developed" in this last half-century, appears to be a reversion to
Robber-Baron-hood ... when will people ever learn?

--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love.
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Community email addresses:
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Binyamin Dissen

2003-12-07 17:38:12 UTC

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 04:55:05 -0500 "Jim Pierson (Hercules)"
<Hercules-Discussion-OMII5yUa2jB0+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

:>The messages and codes manuals are fairly specific on this error.

:>What interests me is your licensing for OS/390 on this platform.

It was annoying enough when Phil replied like this to many posts.

:>To my knowledge, Linux is the only OS that supports LCS that
:>I've seen that can be run on Hercules. Please correct me
:>if I'm wrong. I would (and many others on this list) would love
:>to hear your account of how you licensed OS/390 for use on this
:>platform.

So there is a legal platform where the question is applicable.

:>Please enlighten us.....

--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen-***@public.gmane.org>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel

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jr_garrett

2003-12-07 21:58:39 UTC

Post by Jim Pierson (Hercules)
The messages and codes manuals are fairly specific on this error.
What interests me is your licensing for OS/390 on this platform.
To my knowledge, Linux is the only OS that supports LCS that
I've seen that can be run on Hercules. Please correct me
if I'm wrong. I would (and many others on this list) would love
to hear your account of how you licensed OS/390 for use on this
platform.
Please enlighten us.....

While I'm tempted to respond to your question with the same attitude
and complete lack of helfulness with which you responded to mine, I
won't.

Instead, I'll just simply say.

No.

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Greg Smith

2003-12-08 01:33:14 UTC

Post by jr_garrett
While I'm tempted to respond to your question with the same attitude
and complete lack of helfulness with which you responded to mine, I
won't.

While it's against my better judgment to jump into here, I guess I will.

The types of replies you have received are due to the results of a
years long flame war that has thankfully somewhat subsided.

Bottom line is that it is probably unlikely for anyone to run a
proprietary IBM licensed operating system on hercules legally.
There is reason to believe that some of the subscribers here are
actually looking for these type of license violations.

Therefore, it is bad form to ask questions here about licensed
operating systems. I, and I'm sure other developers, won't touch
these types of questions with a 10 foot pole.

Now, many may think it's common-sense for IBM to offer a hobbyist
or similar type license to enable people that actually care about
the platform and/or want to learn about the platform to do just that
at reasonable cost. In fact, many of us are the choir here.

Problem is, a business case has to be presented to IBM. Next
problem is that IBM is not going to listen to this type of case
until after the SCO debacle is concluded.

Greg

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tonym

2003-12-07 18:27:48 UTC

You know, I've been pondering this ever since I first found out about Herc in one of the Linux mags a few years ago.

Some questions/points I have:

1) Is it not true, that the number capable mainframe System
Programmers and Operators is declining?
2) Because of the nature of the hardware/software, this "pool"
is NOT increaing by new people learning the systems?
3) Then, in effect, is it not REALLY BAD for IBM, because there
will not be enough qualified people around to run / support /
maintain the current systems?
4) Won't this also affect future upgrades / migrations for
companies using these technologies?

Personally, If I was in charge of a company, based on the current
IBM mainframe structure, I'd be looking at migrating over a few years time. It has to be harder and harder every year to maintain staff! Pretty much every viable platform has a method for access by hobbyists / self learners, to acquire the necessary components to learn platforms. From Linux, to Solaris, to Compaq Tru64 Unix and VMS/OpenVMS. Even Silicon Graphics has been trying, albeit slowly. They finally released the IDF/IDO software, so software could be developed with Open Source compilers.

IBM? Wake up. You're obsoleting yourself.

Tony

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Paul Raulerson" <paul-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:13:51 -0600

Post by Paul Raulerson
Well, sooner or later someone is going to write a VM or z/OS compatible OS and release it for fee.
After the inevitable legal hassles that will result, the community will have a nice free Operating
system to move forward with. Pretty much the same as happened with Linux I expect.
Now if IBM were smart, they would head that off right away by opening up low cost or hobbyist licenses
for people running Hercules (and by the way, for Flex-ES and UMX and whatever else is around.)
-Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Pierson (Hercules)
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 3:55 AM
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390
The messages and codes manuals are fairly specific on this error.
What interests me is your licensing for OS/390 on this platform.
To my knowledge, Linux is the only OS that supports LCS that
I've seen that can be run on Hercules. Please correct me
if I'm wrong. I would (and many others on this list) would love
to hear your account of how you licensed OS/390 for use on this
platform.
Please enlighten us.....
Jim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 1:15 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390
Has anyone successfully established a working connection via LCS
between OS/390 and a parent Windows network? If so, I'd appreciate a
peek at your configuration.
I've got probably 30 hours invested in trying, so far unsuccessfully.
Win XP, Herc 3.00, cygwin 1.5.5-1, latest tuntap, fishpack, and
WinPCap. test.exe pings both ways but TCPIP device refuses to
activate, failing with repeated EZZ4310I 80100044's.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
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______________ ______________ ______________ ______________
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Harold Grovesteen

2003-12-07 18:44:39 UTC

Does anyone really think that IBM wants for the long haul to stay in the
proprietary OS business? By making it harder to learn and unavailable, it
just encourages the process. Don't think today. Think 10, 20 years down the
road.

Harold Grovesteen

----- Original Message -----
From: tonym
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

<snip>

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John Cassidy

2003-12-07 18:54:32 UTC

Shooting themselves in the foot?, suicide?. Perhaps it is a strategic
decision by the powers that be. It makes you think. Who want "fit" systems
programmers anymore.. Maybe soon, Big Blue will be producing Hardware
/Software that even people with MCSE's can engineer.

John Cassidy Dipl.-Ing (Informatique)

S390 & zSeries Systems Engineering

Schleswigstr. 7

D-51065 Cologne

EU

Tel: +49 (0) 221 61 60 777 . GSM: +49 (0) 177 799 58 56

E-Mail: Sean-***@public.gmane.org

HTTP : www.jdcassidy.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Harold Grovesteen [mailto:h.grovsteen-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 07 December 2003 19:45
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

Does anyone really think that IBM wants for the long haul to stay in the
proprietary OS business? By making it harder to learn and unavailable, it
just encourages the process. Don't think today. Think 10, 20 years down the
road.

Harold Grovesteen

----- Original Message -----
From: tonym
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

<snip>

Volker Bandke

2003-12-07 20:18:33 UTC

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ever heard of "autonomous computing" ?

--
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

Stealing a rhinoceros should not be taken lightly. -- Alan
Perlis

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)

- -----Original Message-----
From: John Cassidy [mailto:Sean-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 7:55 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

Shooting themselves in the foot?, suicide?. Perhaps it is a strategic
decision by the powers that be. It makes you think. Who want "fit"
systems
programmers anymore.. Maybe soon, Big Blue will be producing Hardware
/Software that even people with MCSE's can engineer.

John Cassidy Dipl.-Ing (Informatique)

S390 & zSeries Systems Engineering

Schleswigstr. 7

D-51065 Cologne

EU

Tel: +49 (0) 221 61 60 777 . GSM: +49 (0) 177 799 58 56

E-Mail: Sean-***@public.gmane.org

HTTP : www.jdcassidy.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: Harold Grovesteen [mailto:h.grovsteen-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 07 December 2003 19:45
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

Does anyone really think that IBM wants for the long haul to stay in
the
proprietary OS business? By making it harder to learn and
unavailable, it
just encourages the process. Don't think today. Think 10, 20 years
down the
road.

Harold Grovesteen

- ----- Original Message -----
From: tonym
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

<snip>

Paul Raulerson

2003-12-07 21:42:31 UTC

Rephrase that question; does IBM NOT want to keep revenue streams inbound from the
operating systems that the vast majority of the world's business data resides upon?

Yes yes I know, there are probably a billion PC's out there. They make great single user
workstations and terminals.

-Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: Harold Grovesteen
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

Does anyone really think that IBM wants for the long haul to stay in the
proprietary OS business? By making it harder to learn and unavailable, it
just encourages the process. Don't think today. Think 10, 20 years down the
road.

Harold Grovesteen

----- Original Message -----
From: tonym
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

<snip>

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Dave Juraschek

2003-12-08 16:56:30 UTC

--- In hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org, "Harold Grovesteen"
<h.grovsteen-kYwkPH9/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Maybe soon, Big Blue will be producing Hardware
/Software that even people with MCSE's can engineer.

IBM did do that a long time ago in the 80's.
MUSIC/SP was such a well designed, advanced and customizable SCP, it
boasted that an office assistant could maintain it - and certainly
one could. The hardest thing would have been doing the requisite I/O
DEF to the hardware itself.

To be fair, though, IBM didn't write MUSIC/SP. They just shabbily
marketed it. So, maybe Harolds comment still stands.

-Dave

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tonym

2003-12-07 21:56:57 UTC

I guess the point I was trying to make, is, if you are CIO of XYZ Corp, and you rely heavily on IBM Mainframes, if you cannot maintain / acquire staff that has the required LEVEL of knowledge, would you not look to migrate elsewhere? I mean, how safe is your data / platform, if you can't find the staff to run it??

Tony

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Paul Raulerson" <paul-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:42:31 -0600

Post by Paul Raulerson
Rephrase that question; does IBM NOT want to keep revenue streams inbound from the
operating systems that the vast majority of the world's business data resides upon?
Yes yes I know, there are probably a billion PC's out there. They make great single user
workstations and terminals.
-Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: Harold Grovesteen
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390
Does anyone really think that IBM wants for the long haul to stay in the
proprietary OS business? By making it harder to learn and unavailable, it
just encourages the process. Don't think today. Think 10, 20 years down the
road.
Harold Grovesteen
----- Original Message -----
From: tonym
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390
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Jeffrey R. Broido

2003-12-08 12:30:34 UTC

Tony,

Ah, but I think you're missing one little bit of information: what
IBM is telling the CIOs and other top executives, most of whom are
interested first in their own net worth, second in the short-term
health of their outfits (the typical top exec. doesn't care these
days about the long-term, clearly) and third in... Um, the typical
top exec. doesn't appear to have any other interests, certainly not
in the likes of us, (I excell at run-on sentences and it's very
early in the morning) is that the direction they are going is to
keep MVS alive, but without the need of a staff of Systems
Programmers. For this reason, IBM as well couldn't care less about
us than they do. They don't care if there are no more Systems
Programmers, hence they don't care to offer hobbyist licenses.

Bomber

Post by tonym
I guess the point I was trying to make, is, if you are CIO
of XYZ Corp, and you rely heavily on IBM Mainframes, if you
cannot maintain / acquire staff that has the required LEVEL
of knowledge, would you not look to migrate elsewhere? I mean,
how safe is your data / platform, if you can't find the staff
to run it??

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tonym

2003-12-08 17:13:27 UTC

That's not going to happen anytime soon.

If someone approached me, with a supposed "self-sustaining" O/S,
I'd personally escort them out of the building myself.

These are machines. These machines follow human instructions.
Humans are extremely fallible.

No Ops needed?

I think not. Please drug-test down the hall.
As to IBM, F'em. They'll be sitting in the slow lane, while everyone zooms by.

Heh - then, when they're gone, we can use the OS's by default <g>

Tony

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Jeffrey R. Broido" <broidoj-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:30:34 -0000

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
Tony,
Ah, but I think you're missing one little bit of information: what
IBM is telling the CIOs and other top executives, most of whom are
interested first in their own net worth, second in the short-term
health of their outfits (the typical top exec. doesn't care these
days about the long-term, clearly) and third in... Um, the typical
top exec. doesn't appear to have any other interests, certainly not
in the likes of us, (I excell at run-on sentences and it's very
early in the morning) is that the direction they are going is to
keep MVS alive, but without the need of a staff of Systems
Programmers. For this reason, IBM as well couldn't care less about
us than they do. They don't care if there are no more Systems
Programmers, hence they don't care to offer hobbyist licenses.
Bomber

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cassidy

2003-12-08 17:20:19 UTC

Hello all,

as you can see using a different subject (thread) than LAN Channel
Station...

In Europe (old and new ...) at the moment, there is a BIG problem to find
sites that even "know" what a sysprog is. As regards finding a job on one of
the platforms (VM, VSE, MVS) - it's a BIG sea-change.

I would appreciate your views.

PS I appreciate that the Hercules forum is not completely appropriate, but I
think the air needs to cleared on this one.

John Cassidy Dipl.-Ing (Informatique)

HTTP : www.jdcassidy.net

-----Original Message-----
From: tonym [mailto:tonym-UYSliD9GJ6IrhUH1/E1g/***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: 08 December 2003 18:13
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: LCS OS/390

That's not going to happen anytime soon.

If someone approached me, with a supposed "self-sustaining" O/S,
I'd personally escort them out of the building myself.

These are machines. These machines follow human instructions.
Humans are extremely fallible.

No Ops needed?

I think not. Please drug-test down the hall.
As to IBM, F'em. They'll be sitting in the slow lane, while everyone zooms
by.

Heh - then, when they're gone, we can use the OS's by default <g>

Tony

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Jeffrey R. Broido" <broidoj-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:30:34 -0000

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
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David Wade

2003-12-08 17:59:59 UTC

Post by John Cassidy
Hello all,
as you can see using a different subject (thread) than LAN Channel
Station...
In Europe (old and new ...) at the moment, there is a BIG problem to find
sites that even "know" what a sysprog is. As regards finding a job on one of
the platforms (VM, VSE, MVS) - it's a BIG sea-change.
I would appreciate your views.

If you browse the archives you will know that there are many
unemployed folks with Mainframe Skills. Its not even limited to
mainframe. In the PC market in the UK people are being displaced as
jobs move to cheaper coutnries. I know IBM(UK) has told about 200
staff to look for other work, internally or externally just this week.

Post by John Cassidy
PS I appreciate that the Hercules forum is not completely
appropriate, but I
think the air needs to cleared on this one.

Just check the archives. I think its been covered often enough
before......

Post by John Cassidy
John Cassidy Dipl.-Ing (Informatique)
HTTP : www.jdcassidy.net
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 08 December 2003 18:13
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: LCS OS/390
That's not going to happen anytime soon.
If someone approached me, with a supposed "self-sustaining" O/S,
I'd personally escort them out of the building myself.

callmebobfx

2003-12-08 19:52:41 UTC

Personally, it hurts to see that the industry in general and IBM in
particular has apparently decided that mainframes will not be a long-
term computing solution. I started in mainframes and know that the
foundational knowledge I gained by studying mainframe technology has
served me well. I think there are many things that today's
programmers could learn if they had some way of accessing mainframe
technology.

Of course, anyone can get on and download Hercules (thanks all for
the fine software!), HercGUI (Fish!Fish!Fish! .. or in COBOL: WRITE
FISH-CHEERS * 3 TO MOUTH-OUTPUT-UNIT.) or the vast array of OS's,
utilities, and applications made available by mainframe aficionados
(or should that be aFISHionados ;-) contributing here.

However, had I not used mainframes, not been a systems programmer,
what would I do? If I were just a 'doze programmer or Nix-Nux
programmer, I might download everything, run through the cookbooks
or HOWTOs, gotten everyting running and then ... well ... be lost.
What do I do next? How do I run a program? How do I write a program?
What the he77 is a JFCB?

From time to time, I regale my 14 year old with stories from old,

telling him how I would gird my loins with OS/MVT Messages and
Codes, place the helm inscribed "System Control Blocks" upon my head
and unsheath my double-edged Principles of Operations to slay
whatever monster would rear it's ugly head. (Hey .. he loves "Dark
Age of Camelot"... gotta keep his attention somehow.) But while he's
interested, I realize that he'll never really catch the vision...
never walk into the machine room, never see the disks spinning,
never watch the heads seeking, never observe the tapes turning,
never know the joy of writing a program that jumps to channel 8
causing the operator to run across the room to press the stop button
before the paper ends up in a pile on the other side of the printer.

Do I have a point? Yes... technical people are lazy today. They want
to slip in a CD, boot it, install the os, install the visual
whatever and program (or install the game and play).

Even if IBM were to come to its senses and provide a hobbyist
license, would anybody beyond the borders of hercules care? How
could we get non-former mainframers interested in plumbing the
depths of MVS/VM/DOS?

I was wondering.. does anybody here know anyone that did not have
previous mainframe interest, but has become a herc/mainframe
hobbyist as a result of having these resources available?

Regardless of the answer, I'm glad that this group exists... If we
ever met, I think I would find a wonderful group of friends.

-- Bob

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Will Collum

2003-12-08 21:50:56 UTC

I qualifiy for this one. I was a VAX/VMS systems person and wondered about the
MVS world for quite sometime, having only participated as a very slight end-user
in a couple jobs, and not very frequently at that. I think Hercules and the
pre-configured MVS 3.8 system fill a definite void, especially for people like
myself who always saw mainframe shops from the outside. There's a lot to be
learned to take forward into the new technology.

Will

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Lucien Fransman

2003-12-13 11:26:42 UTC

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:52:41 -0000
"callmebobfx" <bflanders-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

....

Post by callmebobfx
I was wondering.. does anybody here know anyone that did not have
previous mainframe interest, but has become a herc/mainframe
hobbyist as a result of having these resources available?
Regardless of the answer, I'm glad that this group exists... If we
ever met, I think I would find a wonderful group of friends.
-- Bob

Bob,

I am one of those.

Having limited experience on a IBM S/32 and some OS/400 experience, I was thrilled to dirty my hands on hercules and MVS et al.

Most people I know (after they ask the eternal "why would you want to do that?" question) are moderately interrested in seeing it run and asking what can be done with it. When I tell them the OS is 30 years old or older, they loose interrest. Wich is a BAD(tm) thing IMHO, because some expressed that if they could get some modern OS to run on hercules (and no, not linux, as that runs pretty well without an emulator) they would be tinkering with it.

One of the problems I have with hercules/MVS hercules/VM or hercules/DOS is that i dont have a clue where to begin. Ok, i can set up the system as discribed in the "manual", watch the hercules console, IPL the system and log in, browse trough the help, but after that im utterly lost. And the manuals I was able to salvage all talk about options that I don't seem to have. So yeah, I would be willing to pay a (reasonable) fee for a hobbyist license, as I know I would probably never work for real on one of those magnificent BigIrons.

---
Things to do while watching LOTR movies:
<MercyBeat> In The Two Towers when the Ents decide to march to war, stand up and shout "RUN FOREST, RUN!"

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Wesley Parish

2003-12-14 08:49:08 UTC

Seconded. Once I knew that the IBM mainframes were 24/7 with 5 9s reliability
and massive sustained IO throughput, they became objects of fascination. (PC
and Mac crashes are only fascinating for sooo long ... then you get PC-rage!)

Having Herc370/390 and several ancient IBM OSes available, means that I am
able to suit actions to words and actually do something about it. And hey,
that's the way IBM got its VM/370 in the first place - giving some people the
free opportunity to hack away at interesting problems, and not reining them
in.

Post by Lucien Fransman
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:52:41 -0000
....

Bob,
I am one of those.
Having limited experience on a IBM S/32 and some OS/400 experience, I was
thrilled to dirty my hands on hercules and MVS et al.
Most people I know (after they ask the eternal "why would you want to do
that?" question) are moderately interrested in seeing it run and asking
what can be done with it. When I tell them the OS is 30 years old or older,
they loose interrest. Wich is a BAD(tm) thing IMHO, because some expressed
that if they could get some modern OS to run on hercules (and no, not
linux, as that runs pretty well without an emulator) they would be
tinkering with it.
One of the problems I have with hercules/MVS hercules/VM or hercules/DOS is
that i dont have a clue where to begin. Ok, i can set up the system as
discribed in the "manual", watch the hercules console, IPL the system and
log in, browse trough the help, but after that im utterly lost. And the
manuals I was able to salvage all talk about options that I don't seem to
have. So yeah, I would be willing to pay a (reasonable) fee for a hobbyist
license, as I know I would probably never work for real on one of those
magnificent BigIrons.
---
<MercyBeat> In The Two Towers when the Ents decide to march to war, stand
up and shout "RUN FOREST, RUN!"

--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love.
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

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Bob Flanders (COX)

2003-12-14 10:08:06 UTC

Wesley,

Post by Wesley Parish
Seconded. Once I knew that the IBM mainframes were 24/7 with 5 9s reliability
and massive sustained IO throughput, they became objects of fascination.

(PC

Post by Wesley Parish
and Mac crashes are only fascinating for sooo long ... then you get PC-rage!)
Having Herc370/390 and several ancient IBM OSes available, means that I am
able to suit actions to words and actually do something about it. And hey,
that's the way IBM got its VM/370 in the first place - giving some people the
free opportunity to hack away at interesting problems, and not reining them
in.

I laughed when I read this. Have you ever read the book "Hackers" by Stephen
Levy? It's a retrospective on the early days of computing from the late
fifties to the early 80's. One of the key ideas that the early "hackers"
shared was that IBM hardware and those using it was unapproachable, and
therefore evil. The central tenet of hacking was that software should be
freely available as source and object code. One of the fellows the book
talks much about is Richard Matthew Stallman, Founder of GNU.

(
http://www.slais.ubc.ca/courses/libr500/02-03-wt1/www/J_Caldwell/GNU_Fnder.h
tm ).

As an aside, he describes hacker differently that we think of the word today
[Hacker defined per
<http://www.slais.ubc.ca/courses/libr500/02-03-wt1/www/J_Caldwell/GNU_Fnder.
htm> Richard M. Stallman:] "The use of 'hacker' to mean 'security breaker'
is a confusion on the part of the mass media. [Mal-intentioned security
breakers are known as "crackers" instead.] We hackers refuse to recognize
that meaning, and continue using the word to mean, 'Someone who loves to
program and enjoys being clever about it.'" Personally, I agree with
Stallman's definition and have long considered myself a hacker in this
tradition.

Anyway, the reason I found it amusing is because from the early hacker's
point of view, the PC would have been heaven . the everyman's machine where
each could do whatever was desired without constraint or control. The
360/370 was the penultimate evil, a computer hidden away from the users and
served by an anointed priesthood (the system programmers) and attended to by
their acolytes (the operators). Everything hackers did was a shake of their
collective fist in the general direction of White Plains, NY. Now, we (at
least we herc users) think of how PC's hold us back and long for the truly
open, free and reliable 370/390.

Best regards,

-- Bob

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Wesley Parish

2003-12-14 12:02:37 UTC

Actually, I'm reading it right now.

And yes, it is funny. :-)

And Deitel in one of his Operating Systems books _does_ make the point I
mentioned - that VM/370 was a mostly skunk-works project, an IBM hackers'
OS-hack. So I feel no dissociation in using Hercules (running on Linux) to
run VM/370 (and hopefully to run MVS and OS360 etc on VM/370) ...

Weird how things turn out, isn't it?!?

Post by Bob Flanders (COX)
Wesley,

Post by Wesley Parish
Seconded. Once I knew that the IBM mainframes were 24/7 with 5 9s

reliability

Post by Wesley Parish
and massive sustained IO throughput, they became objects of fascination.

(PC

Post by Wesley Parish
and Mac crashes are only fascinating for sooo long ... then you get

PC-rage!)

Post by Wesley Parish
Having Herc370/390 and several ancient IBM OSes available, means that I am
able to suit actions to words and actually do something about it. And

hey,

Post by Wesley Parish
that's the way IBM got its VM/370 in the first place - giving some people

the

Post by Wesley Parish
free opportunity to hack away at interesting problems, and not reining

them

Post by Wesley Parish
in.

I laughed when I read this. Have you ever read the book "Hackers" by
Stephen Levy? It's a retrospective on the early days of computing from the
late fifties to the early 80's. One of the key ideas that the early
"hackers" shared was that IBM hardware and those using it was
unapproachable, and therefore evil. The central tenet of hacking was that
software should be freely available as source and object code. One of the
fellows the book talks much about is Richard Matthew Stallman, Founder of
GNU.
(
http://www.slais.ubc.ca/courses/libr500/02-03-wt1/www/J_Caldwell/GNU_Fnder.
h tm ).
As an aside, he describes hacker differently that we think of the word
today [Hacker defined per
<http://www.slais.ubc.ca/courses/libr500/02-03-wt1/www/J_Caldwell/GNU_Fnder
. htm> Richard M. Stallman:] "The use of 'hacker' to mean 'security breaker'
is a confusion on the part of the mass media. [Mal-intentioned security
breakers are known as "crackers" instead.] We hackers refuse to recognize
that meaning, and continue using the word to mean, 'Someone who loves to
program and enjoys being clever about it.'" Personally, I agree with
Stallman's definition and have long considered myself a hacker in this
tradition.
Anyway, the reason I found it amusing is because from the early hacker's
point of view, the PC would have been heaven . the everyman's machine where
each could do whatever was desired without constraint or control. The
360/370 was the penultimate evil, a computer hidden away from the users and
served by an anointed priesthood (the system programmers) and attended to
by their acolytes (the operators). Everything hackers did was a shake of
their collective fist in the general direction of White Plains, NY. Now, we
(at least we herc users) think of how PC's hold us back and long for the
truly open, free and reliable 370/390.
Best regards,
-- Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love.
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

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David Wade

2003-12-14 17:00:05 UTC

Post by tonym
I am one of those.
Having limited experience on a IBM S/32 and some OS/400 experience,

I was thrilled to dirty my hands on hercules and MVS et al.

Post by tonym
Most people I know (after they ask the eternal "why would you want
to do that?" question) are moderately interrested in seeing it run
and asking what can be done with it. When I tell them the OS is 30
years old or older, they loose interrest. Wich is a BAD(tm) thing
IMHO, because some expressed that if they could get some modern OS
to run on hercules (and no, not linux, as that runs pretty well
without an emulator) they would be tinkering with it.
One of the problems I have with hercules/MVS hercules/VM or
hercules/DOS is that i dont have a clue where to begin. Ok, i can
set up the system as discribed in the "manual", watch the hercules
console, IPL the system and log in, browse trough the help, but
after that im utterly lost. And the manuals I was able to salvage
all talk about options that I don't seem to have. So yeah, I would

There is now a a pretty good introductory guide to VM at

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/GC20-1819-0_cmsUG_Feb76.pdf

It does not quite match VM/370 R6 but its getting near. There are
also reference manuals on that site that are for VM370 so you should
now be able to get reasonably appropriate help. If you download the 4-
pack system from

http://www.boglob.co.uk/vmdist.html

this has several language compilers installed. If you say which you
want then I am sure I can help you on compiling a program. Some of
the language manuals are also on the above site in the 360 directory.

Lastly work is under way to provide updated documentation for VM370
to make the help fit the system. As you say at present it does not
match.

Hope this is usefull,
Dave

Post by tonym
be willing to pay a (reasonable) fee for a hobbyist license, as I
know I would probably never work for real on one of those
magnificent BigIrons.
---
<MercyBeat> In The Two Towers when the Ents decide to march to war,

stand up and shout "RUN FOREST, RUN!"

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Lucien Fransman

2003-12-15 10:41:49 UTC

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:00:05 -0000

Post by tonym
I am one of those.

There is now a a pretty good introductory guide to VM at
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/GC20-1819-0_cmsUG_Feb76.pdf

Thank you, downloading it now :)

Post by David Wade
It does not quite match VM/370 R6 but its getting near. There are
also reference manuals on that site that are for VM370 so you should
now be able to get reasonably appropriate help. If you download the 4-
pack system from

Yeah, i have that and managed to buy a VM/CMS user reference guide on ebay. That and some assembly references I dont think will be much use to me in the beginning

Post by David Wade
this has several language compilers installed. If you say which you
want then I am sure I can help you on compiling a program. Some of
the language manuals are also on the above site in the 360 directory.

Well, i was trying to get the OSBASIC environment to work, but after loggin, i can't IPL (dasd 190 required for cms, dasd 191 isnt ipl-able and the only (virtual) disk accessable afaik). And I have no idea what to do next ;) At least the OSBASIC environment is a bit more familiar to me, as the S/32 has something similar (i think) called the Basic library. It has been a long time.

Post by David Wade
Lastly work is under way to provide updated documentation for VM370
to make the help fit the system. As you say at present it does not
match.
Hope this is usefull,
Dave

It is :)

With kind regards,

Lucien fransman

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David Wade

2003-12-15 20:56:17 UTC

Post by Lucien Fransman
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:00:05 -0000

Post by tonym
I am one of those.

There is now a a pretty good introductory guide to VM at
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/GC20-1819-0_cmsUG_Feb76.pdf

Thank you, downloading it now :)

Yeah, i have that and managed to buy a VM/CMS user reference guide
on ebay. That and some assembly references I dont think will be
much use to me in the beginning

directory.

Post by Lucien Fransman
Well, i was trying to get the OSBASIC environment to work, but
after loggin, i can't IPL (dasd 190 required for cms, dasd 191 isnt
ipl-able and the only (virtual) disk accessable afaik). And I have
no idea what to do next ;) At least the OSBASIC environment is a
bit more familiar to me, as the S/32 has something similar (i
think) called the Basic library. It has been a long time.

You don't say which username you log in as. If you are logged in as
operator then that is usual. If you are logged in as MAINT then CMS
should IPL as you log in (hit enter once). If you have the 4-pack
then system then BASIC is installed, just do "BASIC filename".

HELP BASIC produces some info. Not sure if its usefull....

So you still need to use the CMS editor to build the file....

Post by Lucien Fransman

Post by David Wade
Lastly work is under way to provide updated documentation for VM370
to make the help fit the system. As you say at present it does not
match.
Hope this is usefull,
Dave

It is :)
With kind regards,
Lucien fransman

Lucien Fransman

2003-12-18 10:28:57 UTC

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:56:17 -0000
"David Wade" <dave-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

snip snip (saving e-trees)

Sorry for the late reply, but work is very hectic at the moment. :(

Post by David Wade
You don't say which username you log in as. If you are logged in as
operator then that is usual. If you are logged in as MAINT then CMS
should IPL as you log in (hit enter once). If you have the 4-pack
then system then BASIC is installed, just do "BASIC filename".

I login using the OSBASIC account. For your convienence ill include the output of what I get:
(after logging on as osbasic passwd osbasic, i do the following)

QUERY DASD
DASD 191 3350 VM50-2 R/W 014 CYL
IPL 191
CP ENTERED; DISABLED WAIT PSW '00020000 00000000'

Post by David Wade
HELP BASIC produces some info. Not sure if its usefull....

Well, no help seems available in the environment.
I get the following error on all accounts
help
UNKNOWN CP/CMS COMMAND

Post by David Wade
So you still need to use the CMS editor to build the file....

Im familiar with edit. the edit editor is I think one of the products IBM made that sneaked its way into all environments. The S/32 has something very similar. :) Its sort of horrible, but you get used to it after a while. I probably can get my hands on a fullscreen editor (sort of) written in basic, with the look and feel of wordstar. (plus a lot of features that come in handy when you work on a mainframe/mini). As far as I know, the program is in the public domain, and I still have the box with the printout. So I think i'll be using Edit a lot :)

---
Things to do while watching LOTR movies:
<MercyBeat> In The Two Towers when the Ents decide to march to war, stand up and shout "RUN FOREST, RUN!"

David Wade

2003-12-18 18:42:23 UTC

Post by Lucien Fransman
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:56:17 -0000
snip snip (saving e-trees)
Sorry for the late reply, but work is very hectic at the moment. :(

Try using MAINT. I think OSBASIC is just a place holder to kep the
minidisks in one place.

Post by Lucien Fransman
(after logging on as osbasic passwd osbasic, i do the following)
QUERY DASD
DASD 191 3350 VM50-2 R/W 014 CYL
IPL 191
CP ENTERED; DISABLED WAIT PSW '00020000 00000000'

Post by David Wade
HELP BASIC produces some info. Not sure if its usefull....

Well, no help seems available in the environment.
I get the following error on all accounts
help
UNKNOWN CP/CMS COMMAND

Post by David Wade
So you still need to use the CMS editor to build the file....

Im familiar with edit. the edit editor is I think one of the

products IBM made that sneaked its way into all environments. The
S/32 has something very similar. :) Its sort of horrible, but you get
used to it after a while. I probably can get my hands on a fullscreen
editor (sort of) written in basic, with the look and feel of
wordstar. (plus a lot of features that come in handy when you work on
a mainframe/mini). As far as I know, the program is in the public
domain, and I still have the box with the printout. So I think i'll
be using Edit a lot :)

Post by Lucien Fransman
---
<MercyBeat> In The Two Towers when the Ents decide to march to war,

stand up and shout "RUN FOREST, RUN!"

Lucien Fransman

2003-12-21 09:30:30 UTC

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:42:23 -0000

Post by Lucien Fransman
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:56:17 -0000
snip snip (saving e-trees)

Try using MAINT. I think OSBASIC is just a place holder to kep the
minidisks in one place.

Thanks, all work now :)

now to get my hands on a callos basic manual :)
But now my basic programs that are a bit more complex than the 10 PRINT 'HELLO WORLD' refuse to work (syntax errors) so I am in desperate need for that manual.

But it works fine, and in the most unexpected places I run into similarities with the S/32 i was used to.

The IBM manuals are, however, as I remember them. Horrible to read but crammed with info I would probably never use :)

It is really weird, but except for a few things (flat filesystem, a line-editor, no "full screen" programs it (vm/370 running cms) feels quite modern.

I might enjoy running hercules running VM/370 running cms ;).

Post by Lucien Fransman

Post by David Wade
HELP BASIC produces some info. Not sure if its usefull....

Well, no help seems available in the environment.
I get the following error on all accounts
help
UNKNOWN CP/CMS COMMAND

Oh, btw, this was fixed when I used the MAINT account.
Ill have to see how I go about adding users and asssiging (virtual) dasd devices to them.

BTW, when I have a bit more time, ill try to make a "turnkey" cdrom for the vm 5-pack. One that "transforms" a PC into a S/370 ;)

Ill have to think on it a bit, but it isnt very difficult IMHO (made cd's like that before)

Is there a way to use real dasd partitions?

(for non linux/unix users that wouldnt make sense I think, but what I mean is, can I create a /dev/dasd1 or whatever so the disk-sets are real partitions and not files on a filesystem pretending to be disks? )

--
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---
Things to do while watching LOTR movies:
<MercyBeat> In The Two Towers when the Ents decide to march to war, stand up and shout "RUN FOREST, RUN!"

Fish

2003-12-21 12:00:00 UTC

Lucien Fransman wrote:

<snip>

Post by Lucien Fransman
Is there a way to use real dasd partitions?
(for non linux/unix users that wouldnt make sense I think,
but what I mean is, can I create a /dev/dasd1 or whatever
so the disk-sets are real partitions and not files on a
filesystem pretending to be disks? )

I believe Ivan added code in version 3.0 to support block special
devices for regular FBA dasd only[*], but only for non-Win32
non-Apple platforms.

I suspect the same support *might* be able to be added for Windows
too (I'm pretty sure Windows *does* support that ability), but I
haven't had a chance to look into it yet to see how much actual
effort it would take to do so.

- --
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
fish-6N/dkqvhA+***@public.gmane.org

Fight Spam! Join CAUCE!
http://www.cauce.org/

[*] AFAIK compressed FBA is not supported, nor is CKD of any kind.
Just regular FBA only.

Lucien Fransman

2003-12-21 15:18:11 UTC

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 04:00:00 -0800

Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
<snip>

I believe Ivan added code in version 3.0 to support block special
devices for regular FBA dasd only[*], but only for non-Win32
non-Apple platforms.

Oh, that would be enough for my purpose then :)

I'm thinking about creating a mini-distro with hercules and one "operator console" running as the only userland applications (creating a Hercules vm/mvs only turnkey system)

I'll see if I can find anything in the changelog or source

Thank you :)

Post by Volker Bandke
I suspect the same support *might* be able to be added for Windows
too (I'm pretty sure Windows *does* support that ability), but I
haven't had a chance to look into it yet to see how much actual
effort it would take to do so.

It does, sort of, but then again, i moved away from the windows world since the introduction of windows 98 ;)

Post by Volker Bandke
- --

snipsnip

Post by Volker Bandke
[*] AFAIK compressed FBA is not supported, nor is CKD of any kind.
Just regular FBA only.

I have no clue what that means. Guess I have some more reading to do ;)

somitcw

2003-12-21 16:04:53 UTC

--- In hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org, Lucien Fransman
<rlf-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
- - - snipped - - -

Post by Lucien Fransman
I'm thinking about creating a mini-distro with
hercules and one "operator console" running as
the only userland applications (creating a
Hercules vm/mvs only turnkey system)

MVS will not run on FBA disks without purchased
software to make FBA look like CKD. I believe
that Goal Systems sold a product at one time.

Why not use normal disk files and remove the
raw disk slice complications? MVS and all other
operating systems can run with normal disk files.

Lucien Fransman

2003-12-22 08:31:23 UTC

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:04:53 -0000
"somitcw" <somitcw-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Hi,

<snip>

Post by somitcw
Why not use normal disk files and remove the
raw disk slice complications? MVS and all other
operating systems can run with normal disk files.

Speed?
Added complexity ?
Say, for example, you have a diskfile on reiserfs (to pick one filesystem). to write data from vm to the file, the data will pass through (roughly) the OS (vm) to hercules to the OS (linux) to the filesystem. Reiser then will use all sort of mechanisms to buffer data, adding complexity.

What happens when the OS(linux) crashes and some data is still in the buffer?
On startup (as reiserfs is a journaling filesystem) reiserfs will try to salvage the datastructure(!) via reiserfsck and the dasd volume will be in good shape according to the OS. Data might have been lost, but the file is still there. (mind you, this doesnt say anything about the data integrity inside the file). If the OS running within hercules uses buffering at write-caches itself, the damage could be disasterous.

For an example fo this, look at vmware, which does (in theory) do the same thing Hercules does. Emulate the machine, so you can run an OS on it. They added the diskfiles for speed and integrity.
---
Things to do while watching LOTR movies:
<MercyBeat> In The Two Towers when the Ents decide to march to war, stand up and shout "RUN FOREST, RUN!"

zenith89

2003-12-18 21:37:38 UTC

(snip)
Im familiar with edit. the edit editor is I think one of the

products IBM made that sneaked its way into all environments. The S/32
has something very similar. :) Its sort of horrible ...
Hmmmmm, I like EDIT, but yeah, its no XEDIT. The main problem of
course with EDIT is that its difficult to determine the current line.
We found some little tricks that help ...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/H390-VM/message/2203
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/H390-VM/message/2204
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/H390-VM/message/2282

...CPV

Bill Turner, WB4ALM

2003-12-08 17:38:04 UTC

Post by tonym
That's not going to happen anytime soon.
If someone approached me, with a supposed "self-sustaining" O/S,
I'd personally escort them out of the building myself.
These are machines. These machines follow human instructions.
Humans are extremely fallible.
No Ops needed?
I think not. Please drug-test down the hall.
As to IBM, F'em. They'll be sitting in the slow lane, while everyone zooms by.
Heh - then, when they're gone, we can use the OS's by default <g>

Uh, wait a minute.
If IBM went away, then one of two other venders would probably buy the
IP...
and I'm sure that none of us would like the results:
1) CA
2) Micro$oft
Of course, SCO could always try claiming that they own the patents....

/s/ Bill Turner, WB4ALM

Post by tonym
Tony
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:30:34 -0000

tonycrossuk

2003-12-08 17:55:57 UTC

Sorry Tony but Bomber is absolutely right. If you look closely at
the way MVS-OS/390-z/OS has evolved over the years one of the most
rapid developments you see is how much easier z/OS is to support
than traditional MVS. One of IBM's major efforts has been to reduce
the level of technical knowldege required to support OS/390 and now
z/OS. It's typical these days to see the whole tech support
department managed by three or four sysprogs, when in years gone by
it would have been three or four TEAMS. It really is evolving into
a "point and click" OS. I've been involved in MVS and related
sysprog type education for the last 15 years (and as a sysprog for
10 years before that) and the relative ease with which z/OS can be
supported compared with good old MVS is one of the major reasons why
I'm going to retire early next year!

Sad but true.......Tony Cross

everyone zooms by.

Post by tonym
Heh - then, when they're gone, we can use the OS's by default <g>
Tony
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:30:34 -0000

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
Tony,

what

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
IBM is telling the CIOs and other top executives, most of whom are
interested first in their own net worth, second in the short-term
health of their outfits (the typical top exec. doesn't care these
days about the long-term, clearly) and third in... Um, the

typical

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
top exec. doesn't appear to have any other interests, certainly not
in the likes of us, (I excell at run-on sentences and it's very
early in the morning) is that the direction they are going is to
keep MVS alive, but without the need of a staff of Systems
Programmers. For this reason, IBM as well couldn't care less

about

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
us than they do. They don't care if there are no more Systems
Programmers, hence they don't care to offer hobbyist licenses.
Bomber

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Post by tonym
______________ ______________ ______________ ______________
Sent via the KillerWebMail system at mail.compusource.net

Jeffrey R. Broido

2003-12-08 19:18:45 UTC

Tony,

Oh, yes, I agree that it won't happen. I'm just saying that this is
what IBM salespersons are telling their customers' top executives.
In the meantime, I haven't worked as a SysProg since June, 2001 and
am unlikely ever to work in my field again.

Bomber

zapzap50

2003-12-08 19:30:32 UTC

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
In the meantime, I haven't worked as a SysProg since June, 2001 and
am unlikely ever to work in my field again.

Bomber
There was a job opportunity on IBM MAIN forum some minutes ago
Bruno
zapzap0(at)wanadoo(dot)fr

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Tony Mori

2003-12-09 01:52:49 UTC

Say...what are some good online mainframe news/magazine/article sites?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey R. Broido" <broidoj-***@public.gmane.org>
To: <hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 2:18 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: LCS OS/390

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
Tony,
Oh, yes, I agree that it won't happen. I'm just saying that this is
what IBM salespersons are telling their customers' top executives.
In the meantime, I haven't worked as a SysProg since June, 2001 and
am unlikely ever to work in my field again.
Bomber

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Adam Thornton

2003-12-09 04:09:52 UTC

Post by Tony Mori
Say...what are some good online mainframe news/magazine/article sites?

DISCLAIMER: I write articles for z/Journal, but I think they're pretty
good. http://www.zjournal.com.

Adam

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---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Klein, Kenneth E

2003-12-08 18:02:44 UTC

I tried to resist but I have to add my 2 cents worth:

In 20 years I have seen a lot of things get a whole heck of lot easier
and faster to do - but I have also seen lots of new complications being
added: OMVS, TCP/IP, SMS/HSM, Tape robots, RAID DASD. I think in a few
years when the good sysprogs start to retire, there will be a HUGE
demand for one with any skills.

Kenneth Klein

-----Original Message-----
From: tonycrossuk [mailto:tonycrossuk-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 12:56 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: LCS OS/390

Sorry Tony but Bomber is absolutely right. If you look closely at
the way MVS-OS/390-z/OS has evolved over the years one of the most
rapid developments you see is how much easier z/OS is to support
than traditional MVS. One of IBM's major efforts has been to reduce
the level of technical knowldege required to support OS/390 and now
z/OS. It's typical these days to see the whole tech support
department managed by three or four sysprogs, when in years gone by
it would have been three or four TEAMS. It really is evolving into
a "point and click" OS. I've been involved in MVS and related
sysprog type education for the last 15 years (and as a sysprog for
10 years before that) and the relative ease with which z/OS can be
supported compared with good old MVS is one of the major reasons why
I'm going to retire early next year!

Sad but true.......Tony Cross

everyone zooms by.

Post by tonym
Heh - then, when they're gone, we can use the OS's by default <g>
Tony
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:30:34 -0000

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
Tony,

what

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
IBM is telling the CIOs and other top executives, most of whom

are

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
interested first in their own net worth, second in the short-term
health of their outfits (the typical top exec. doesn't care these
days about the long-term, clearly) and third in... Um, the

typical

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
top exec. doesn't appear to have any other interests, certainly

not

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
in the likes of us, (I excell at run-on sentences and it's very
early in the morning) is that the direction they are going is to
keep MVS alive, but without the need of a staff of Systems
Programmers. For this reason, IBM as well couldn't care less

about

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
us than they do. They don't care if there are no more Systems
Programmers, hence they don't care to offer hobbyist licenses.
Bomber

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Post by tonym
______________ ______________ ______________ ______________
Sent via the KillerWebMail system at mail.compusource.net

Per Jessen

2003-12-08 22:55:06 UTC

I've done sysprog'ing (among other things) for the last 17 years - USS,
TCPIP, SMS/HSM, tape robots, RAID - been there, done that. Even spent a
couple of years writing some of that tape robot software for STK.
And more too. I did 5 years of TPF, been spending quite some time with
Linux/390 - even Java and J2EE most recently. I'm just short of 40, but
getting a job just isn't happening ...

/Per Jessen, Zurich

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tonym

2003-12-09 01:03:25 UTC

No real reason to resist - this isn't a Herc<->OS/390
licensing discussion. It may be slightly OT, but is it
really? We're discussing our (in)ability to use OS's
that are less than 3 decades old.

Personally? If I were IBM, I'd be looking to do some kind of hobbyist/educational/non-commercial license.
After all, who better to promote a platform, than those who use/live/breathe it?

Even though I know next to nothing about mainframes, except what I've learned here (Thanks Herc Dev Team!), I would pay a (reasonable) yearly fee. Same thing we're trying to get SGI to do with Irix.

At least Irix can be bought on eBay!

Tony

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Klein, Kenneth E" <KKlein9-XkNU/***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:02:44 -0500

Post by Klein, Kenneth E
In 20 years I have seen a lot of things get a whole heck of lot easier
and faster to do - but I have also seen lots of new complications being
added: OMVS, TCP/IP, SMS/HSM, Tape robots, RAID DASD. I think in a few
years when the good sysprogs start to retire, there will be a HUGE
demand for one with any skills.
Kenneth Klein
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 12:56 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: LCS OS/390
Sorry Tony but Bomber is absolutely right. If you look closely at
the way MVS-OS/390-z/OS has evolved over the years one of the most
rapid developments you see is how much easier z/OS is to support
than traditional MVS. One of IBM's major efforts has been to reduce
the level of technical knowldege required to support OS/390 and now
z/OS. It's typical these days to see the whole tech support
department managed by three or four sysprogs, when in years gone by
it would have been three or four TEAMS. It really is evolving into
a "point and click" OS. I've been involved in MVS and related
sysprog type education for the last 15 years (and as a sysprog for
10 years before that) and the relative ease with which z/OS can be
supported compared with good old MVS is one of the major reasons why
I'm going to retire early next year!
Sad but true.......Tony Cross

everyone zooms by.

Post by tonym
Heh - then, when they're gone, we can use the OS's by default <g>
Tony
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:30:34 -0000

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
Tony,

what

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
IBM is telling the CIOs and other top executives, most of whom

are

typical

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
top exec. doesn't appear to have any other interests, certainly

not

about

Post by Jeffrey R. Broido
us than they do. They don't care if there are no more Systems
Programmers, hence they don't care to offer hobbyist licenses.
Bomber

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Post by tonym
______________ ______________ ______________ ______________
Sent via the KillerWebMail system at mail.compusource.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

tonym

2003-12-09 01:13:07 UTC

I am one of those. I'm a PC Networking/Routing/Servers guy.
My mainstay is Cisco/Windows/Unix/Linux.

I've always been intrigued - after Hurricane Andrew hit, I used my van to distribute food/water/supplies in South Dade County. I passed a completely demolished shopping center - and the ONLY thing standing was an IBM 9371-110 MicroChannel/370.

I threw it in the van, had it for a few years. During that time, I found out that it had been owned by State Farm, and was one os the systems they used in the agencies. When I notified them of the condition (someone had already taken the HD's, tape drive,etcc..) the woman said to keep it - the re-license cost would be prohibitive.

I drug that thing aroung until 1998, when I finally just threw it away - I never found the OS to run on it (obviously!)

Then, a few years ago, one of the Linux mags ran an article on Hercules, and I've been dabbling ever since!

Tony

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "callmebobfx" <bflanders-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:52:41 -0000

Post by callmebobfx
Personally, it hurts to see that the industry in general and IBM in
particular has apparently decided that mainframes will not be a long-
term computing solution. I started in mainframes and know that the
foundational knowledge I gained by studying mainframe technology has
served me well. I think there are many things that today's
programmers could learn if they had some way of accessing mainframe
technology.
Of course, anyone can get on and download Hercules (thanks all for
the fine software!), HercGUI (Fish!Fish!Fish! .. or in COBOL: WRITE
FISH-CHEERS * 3 TO MOUTH-OUTPUT-UNIT.) or the vast array of OS's,
utilities, and applications made available by mainframe aficionados
(or should that be aFISHionados ;-) contributing here.
However, had I not used mainframes, not been a systems programmer,
what would I do? If I were just a 'doze programmer or Nix-Nux
programmer, I might download everything, run through the cookbooks
or HOWTOs, gotten everyting running and then ... well ... be lost.
What do I do next? How do I run a program? How do I write a program?
What the he77 is a JFCB?

From time to time, I regale my 14 year old with stories from old,

telling him how I would gird my loins with OS/MVT Messages and
Codes, place the helm inscribed "System Control Blocks" upon my head
and unsheath my double-edged Principles of Operations to slay
whatever monster would rear it's ugly head. (Hey .. he loves "Dark
Age of Camelot"... gotta keep his attention somehow.) But while he's
interested, I realize that he'll never really catch the vision...
never walk into the machine room, never see the disks spinning,
never watch the heads seeking, never observe the tapes turning,
never know the joy of writing a program that jumps to channel 8
causing the operator to run across the room to press the stop button
before the paper ends up in a pile on the other side of the printer.
Do I have a point? Yes... technical people are lazy today. They want
to slip in a CD, boot it, install the os, install the visual
whatever and program (or install the game and play).
Even if IBM were to come to its senses and provide a hobbyist
license, would anybody beyond the borders of hercules care? How
could we get non-former mainframers interested in plumbing the
depths of MVS/VM/DOS?
I was wondering.. does anybody here know anyone that did not have
previous mainframe interest, but has become a herc/mainframe
hobbyist as a result of having these resources available?
Regardless of the answer, I'm glad that this group exists... If we
ever met, I think I would find a wonderful group of friends.
-- Bob
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Klein, Kenneth E

2003-12-09 14:00:42 UTC

/www.world-of-os390.de/

Start on this "ring" and you will find dozens of os/390 sites.

Kenneth Klein

-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Thornton [mailto:adam-l+/***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:10 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: LCS OS/390

Post by Tony Mori
Say...what are some good online mainframe news/magazine/article sites?

DISCLAIMER: I write articles for z/Journal, but I think they're pretty
good. http://www.zjournal.com.

Adam

Klein, Kenneth E

2003-12-12 16:31:47 UTC

Not a valid scenario. The power required to run and cool an equal amount
of workload on intell or even PowerPC chips would cost more than the
mainframe system.

Kenneth Klein
Computing Center Technical Services
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Raulerson [mailto:paul-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 6:05 AM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

I'm not so sure it is "robber-baron-hood" thinking that is the problem,
or if it is just a matter of image,
or if it is just real deep seated fear of some kind of an impact on
profits. You can do real work, today,
under Hercules, even with ancient MVS.

You can do up to date work, today, under Linux/390 running under
Hercules, including writing Assembler
programs that operate very efficiently. If it were legal, OS/390 under
Hercules would be an acceptable
development or non-mission critical system. I make that distinction NOT
because Hercules would be
liable to crash and cause an issue, but because PC hardware, even
"server class" PC hardware is
utterly unreliable. (I've NEVER been able to get Hercules compiled and
fully running under AIX on a
series machine. That would eliminate the nasty hardware issues though.
:)

All of that is scary in a lot of ways. Think of what the normal CEO
would think and do if they realized
they might be able to replace their million dollars S/390s with a rank
of "cheap" PCs. The really smart ones
would dismiss the possibility, but a few of them would move over to
Hercules on PCs running OS/390 and
save MAJOR bucks. They would appear to be a hero, make massive bonus',
and be the king of the
little empire - until something went wrong. Then they would blame IBM
software or the programmers
or *anything* else they can find to move blame onto. :) I can see why
IBM would want to avoid that kind
of situation!

-Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: Wesley Parish
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

As far as I can see, this community will wind up doing a Berkeley CSRG
on the
sources that have been released (rewriting them to handle conditions
that the
retired/laid-off sysadmins, etc, regard as elementary and common to
todays'
systems), and IBM will find itself a bemused onlooker instead of a
participant.

All of which could be sidestepped by the simple expedient of applying
the
ancient "salvage" laws to the concept of "Intellectual Property" -
whatever
isn't in present revenue-earning use, is fair game to hobbyists,
tinkerers,
etc, who want to learn it ... But unfortunately "Intellectual
Property" as
has been "developed" in this last half-century, appears to be a
reversion to
Robber-Baron-hood ... when will people ever learn?

Post by Paul Raulerson
Well, sooner or later someone is going to write a VM or z/OS

compatible OS

Post by Paul Raulerson
and release it for fee. After the inevitable legal hassles that will
result, the community will have a nice free Operating system to move
forward with. Pretty much the same as happened with Linux I expect.
Now if IBM were smart, they would head that off right away by

opening up

Post by Paul Raulerson
low cost or hobbyist licenses for people running Hercules (and by

the way,

Post by Paul Raulerson
for Flex-ES and UMX and whatever else is around.)
-Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Pierson (Hercules)
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 3:55 AM
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390
The messages and codes manuals are fairly specific on this error.
What interests me is your licensing for OS/390 on this platform.
To my knowledge, Linux is the only OS that supports LCS that
I've seen that can be run on Hercules. Please correct me
if I'm wrong. I would (and many others on this list) would love
to hear your account of how you licensed OS/390 for use on this
platform.
Please enlighten us.....
Jim
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 1:15 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390
Has anyone successfully established a working connection via LCS
between OS/390 and a parent Windows network? If so, I'd appreciate

Post by Paul Raulerson
peek at your configuration.
I've got probably 30 hours invested in trying, so far

unsuccessfully.

Post by Paul Raulerson
Win XP, Herc 3.00, cygwin 1.5.5-1, latest tuntap, fishpack, and
WinPCap. test.exe pings both ways but TCPIP device refuses to
activate, failing with repeated EZZ4310I 80100044's.
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Post by Paul Raulerson
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--
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love.
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

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halfmeg

2003-12-13 03:16:14 UTC

Post by Klein, Kenneth E
Not a valid scenario. The power required to run and cool an equal
amount of workload on intell or even PowerPC chips would cost more
than the mainframe system.

Not sure what you are implying is not valid. The 'equal amount of
workload' or the cost of license for the software usage? Paul's
statement below mentions development or non-mission critical. In the
shops I have worked in we carved out partitions for sysprogs to lay
down a new system before installation. This partition stayed up
almost all the time as ISV products were installed there first as
well & PTFs, etc.. . We also had a small mip partition for
application development. All of those things take away from full use
of the production system for production. More below on power and
cool.

Post by Klein, Kenneth E
<snip>

You can do real work, today, under Hercules, even with ancient
MVS.
You can do up to date work, today, under Linux/390 running under
Hercules, including writing Assembler programs that operate very
efficiently. If it were legal, OS/390 under Hercules would be an
acceptable development or non-mission critical system. I make
that distinction NOT because Hercules would be liable to crash
and cause an issue, but because PC hardware, even "server class"
PC hardware is utterly unreliable.

<snip>

IBM doesn't seem to mind PC hardware running OS/390 for some of their
customers. The large majority are probably Partner World for
Development members. There do seem to be some end-user customers of
little-iron if for no other reason than IBM doesn't seem to make a
sub 80 MIP big-iron system anymore. One of the PC hardware resellers
in fact claims they are the place for 120 MIPs and below. This would
seem to imply that there isn't enough profit for someone to produce
and market a 100 MIP big-iron system. This of course doesn't include
software costs at all. The software costs whether IBM OS and sundry
additional products or ISV products far outweigh the expense of the
hardware equipment, unless we're talking LINUX. Oh yeah, ambient
room temperature should suffice. A normal wall plug outlet, not some
tri-twist 220v 400Hz 3Phase, should also work.

Post by Klein, Kenneth E
<snip>

Post by Wesley Parish
All of which could be sidestepped by the simple expedient of
applying the ancient "salvage" laws to the concept of
"Intellectual Property" - whatever isn't in present
revenue-earning use, is fair game to hobbyists, tinkerers,
etc, who want to learn it ...

<snip>

Hmm, the salvage folks came along after someone had lost something
valuable. In this case, someone has discarded something without
giving up their claim to ownership. This amuses me a little as I
have looked at several of the IBM comment form letters. They state:
"IBM shall have the nonexclusive right, in its discretion, to use and
distribute all submitted information, in any form, for any and all
purposes, without obligation of any kind to the submitter." Another
states: "All comments and suggestions become the property of IBM."

These are not the statements of a company who wishes to share
anything IMHO, much less permit something they see as a possible
encroachment on their revenue stream, think software license fees.

Phil - wrap it up, I'll take it, wrap it up, put it under the tree :-)

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tonym

2003-12-13 04:04:24 UTC

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Paul Raulerson" <paul-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 05:05:29 -0600

Post by Paul Raulerson
I'm not so sure it is "robber-baron-hood" thinking that is the problem, or if it is just a matter of image,
or if it is just real deep seated fear of some kind of an impact on profits. You can do real work, today,
under Hercules, even with ancient MVS.
You can do up to date work, today, under Linux/390 running under Hercules, including writing Assembler
programs that operate very efficiently. If it were legal, OS/390 under Hercules would be an acceptable
development or non-mission critical system. I make that distinction NOT because Hercules would be
liable to crash and cause an issue, but because PC hardware, even "server class" PC hardware is
utterly unreliable.

STOP! I would SERIOUSLY disagree here. There are MANY
corporations running extremely mission-critical/important systems
based on PC/COTS machines.

I personally have a few servers that have been up and running since
1996, without a SINGLE piece of hardware being touched. Nothing.
Not a single minute of downtime, not a single minute of component
switch-out, not a single minute of repair. They're still running a 2.x
release of FreeBSD!

How many mainframes ya got that has had not ONE SINGLE MINUTE
of repair time of ANY SORT since 1996? If they're anything like
AS/400's in any way, I doubt you have any, from what I've seen!

Intel x86 equipment has morphed quite a bit in the last few years. If
you get equipment from a solid vendor, such as HP/Compaq or IBM,
you will not see failures. They have an excellent track record, and the
manufacturers have paid much attention to detail, and have been listening
to customers.

Post by Paul Raulerson
(I've NEVER been able to get Hercules compiled and fully running under AIX on a
series machine. That would eliminate the nasty hardware issues though. :)

RS/6000's are not PC Class machines, and Hercules probably needs some porting
time for AIX, because it is a different beast. They diverged from Unix in the
family tree a LONG time ago.

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Paul Raulerson

2003-12-13 04:31:56 UTC

----- Original Message -----
From: tonym
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Paul Raulerson" <paul-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 05:05:29 -0600

STOP! I would SERIOUSLY disagree here. There are MANY
corporations running extremely mission-critical/important systems
based on PC/COTS machines.

Not on a single machine I bet. And in fact, in many of those cases, those applications would be far better served on the mainframe than on the PC running Windows.

I personally have a few servers that have been up and running since
1996, without a SINGLE piece of hardware being touched. Nothing.
Not a single minute of downtime, not a single minute of component
switch-out, not a single minute of repair. They're still running a 2.x
release of FreeBSD!

You have me there - I don't have any machines that have ran continuously without at least rebooting for 7 years.
And about a 1/10th of our PC's have experienced power supply or disk failures over the past 5 years.

How many mainframes ya got that has had not ONE SINGLE MINUTE
of repair time of ANY SORT since 1996? If they're anything like
AS/400's in any way, I doubt you have any, from what I've seen!

Depends upon what you mean by repair time I suppose; if for instance, a processor fails on our
mainframe, it will certainly call home and get fixed, but that would not involve any down time. In
fact, users would not even know the processor had failed. Same is true for memory and
network and so forth.

Intel x86 equipment has morphed quite a bit in the last few years. If
you get equipment from a solid vendor, such as HP/Compaq or IBM,
you will not see failures. They have an excellent track record, and the
manufacturers have paid much attention to detail, and have been listening
to customers.
'
OH yeah- we have 8 Compaq servers (DL380 and DL360's.) The DL380's are pretty reliable, but
conk out about once a year. New riser, new mothboard, new power supply, new HBA, something.
The DL360's are fast and work well, and work as our Citrix servers. They also have crashed (BSOD)
about a half dozen times related to either hardware or WIndows problems in the past year.

And along those same lines, something like an IBM bladeserver is not cheap. It is not difficult at all
to hit the $100K mark.

Post by Paul Raulerson
(I've NEVER been able to get Hercules compiled and fully running under AIX on a
series machine. That would eliminate the nasty hardware issues though. :)

RS/6000's are not PC Class machines, and Hercules probably needs some porting
time for AIX, because it is a different beast. They diverged from Unix in the
family tree a LONG time ago.

It is not that different; the problem has to do with threads.
-Paul

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Jay Maynard

2003-12-13 23:46:24 UTC

Post by tonym
How many mainframes ya got that has had not ONE SINGLE MINUTE
of repair time of ANY SORT since 1996? If they're anything like
AS/400's in any way, I doubt you have any, from what I've seen!

How many PCs have you seen that can be repaired without taking the system
down? Aside from hot-swap power supplies and disk drives, you pretty much
have to drop the whole box to fix something.

Post by Paul Raulerson
(I've NEVER been able to get Hercules compiled and fully running under
AIX on a series machine. That would eliminate the nasty hardware issues
though. :)

RS/6000's are not PC Class machines, and Hercules probably needs some
porting time for AIX, because it is a different beast. They diverged from
Unix in the family tree a LONG time ago.

Hercules would probably port to AIX, HP-UX, etcetera with some work, mainly
in discovering which bits of the POSIX standard the indiviual vendors didn't
implement, coding around them, and teching its configuration stuff to deal
with them. The one sine qua non is that it pretty much has to be compiled
with gcc, as there are a lot of gcc-isms in the code.

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Fish

2003-12-14 00:12:24 UTC

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jay Maynard wrote:

<snip>

Post by Jay Maynard
The one sine qua non is that it pretty much has to be compiled
with gcc, as there are a lot of gcc-isms in the code.

And that is the ONE thing that I personally would like to see fixed!
IMO Herc *should* be written such that it should be able to be
compiled with any ansi/iso compliant c/c++ compiler. That it should
require gcc like it does is not right IMO.

A loooong time ago (several years in fact when I first cam across
Herc) I tried compiling it with M$'s VC++ compiler (which has a
'strict ansi' compile option) and it choked big time. I spent several
hours/days trying to make the needed changes in order to get it to
compile cleanly but finally gave up in total frustration.

Maybe it's time someone looked into this issue again??

- --
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
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halfmeg

2003-12-14 14:11:05 UTC

Post by Harold Grovesteen
<snip>
And that is the ONE thing that I personally would like to see fixed!
IMO Herc *should* be written such that it should be able to be
compiled with any ansi/iso compliant c/c++ compiler. That it should
require gcc like it does is not right IMO.
<snip>

Funny you should mention C++. Is this now a requirement for Hercules
3.01? Reason I ask is recent attempt to build Hercules 3.01 didn't
make it through configure. Error was on preprocessor for C++ I
think, something about /lib/cpp not sane. The configure for 2.16.5
ran just fine.

Phil - if so mention it to Volker as his build page doesn't have C++

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Jay Maynard

2003-12-14 14:21:25 UTC

Post by halfmeg
Funny you should mention C++. Is this now a requirement for Hercules
3.01?

No, and it will never require C++ if I have anything to say about it.
There's nothing there that C++ would help, and adding it introduces a BUNCH
of overhead.

Post by halfmeg
Reason I ask is recent attempt to build Hercules 3.01 didn't
make it through configure. Error was on preprocessor for C++ I
think, something about /lib/cpp not sane. The configure for 2.16.5
ran just fine.

This is strange. What OS are you trying to build it on?

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Ivan Warren

2003-12-14 15:17:19 UTC

Post by Jay Maynard
This is strange. What OS are you trying to build it on?

Jay,

I can confirm the issue. The problem lies in the libtool/configure.ac
combo. For some (odd) reason, libtool tries to make some c++ tests and
barfs if g++ is not part of the gcc package.

I'll look into it next week.

--Ivan

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halfmeg

2003-12-14 16:02:19 UTC

Post by Harold Grovesteen
<snip>

This is strange. What OS are you trying to build it on?

See Ivan has encountered the same thing while I was collecting data:

CYGWIN on Windows

checking dlfcn.h usability... yes
checking dlfcn.h presence... yes
checking for dlfcn.h... yes
checking for g++... no
checking for c++... no
checking for gpp... no
checking for aCC... no
checking for CC... CC
checking whether we are using the GNU C++ compiler... no
checking whether CC accepts -g... no
checking dependency style of CC... gcc3
checking how to run the C++ preprocessor... /lib/cpp
configure: error: C++ preprocessor "/lib/cpp" fails sanity check
See `config.log' for more details.

Phil - config.log says failures in several areas - will send offline

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Volker Bandke

2003-12-14 16:23:57 UTC

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Phil,

you probably upgraded to a newer version of gcc. When I did this
yesterday on one of my systems, the same thing happened. Not
wanting to go on a wild goose chase, also knowing that Cygwin is a
moving target, I just added the other gcc compiler facilities from
the Cygwin setup. That helped, and the error went away. I will just
upgrade the "prerequisites" to say "everything called gcc something"

--
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

Bank error in your favour. collect $200.

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)

- -----Original Message-----
From: halfmeg [mailto:opplr-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 5:02 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: LCS OS/390

Post by Harold Grovesteen
<snip>

This is strange. What OS are you trying to build it on?

See Ivan has encountered the same thing while I was collecting data:

CYGWIN on Windows

checking dlfcn.h usability... yes
checking dlfcn.h presence... yes
checking for dlfcn.h... yes
checking for g++... no
checking for c++... no
checking for gpp... no
checking for aCC... no
checking for CC... CC
checking whether we are using the GNU C++ compiler... no
checking whether CC accepts -g... no
checking dependency style of CC... gcc3
checking how to run the C++ preprocessor... /lib/cpp
configure: error: C++ preprocessor "/lib/cpp" fails sanity check
See `config.log' for more details.

Phil - config.log says failures in several areas - will send offline

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halfmeg

2003-12-15 12:01:45 UTC

Post by Volker Bandke
Phil,
you probably upgraded to a newer version of gcc.

True, I have downloaded a few of the CYGWIN packages to a local
directory for install of various things.

Post by Volker Bandke
When I did this
yesterday on one of my systems, the same thing happened. Not
wanting to go on a wild goose chase, also knowing that Cygwin is a
moving target, I just added the other gcc compiler facilities from
the Cygwin setup. That helped, and the error went away. I will
just upgrade the "prerequisites" to say "everything called gcc
something"
<snip>

Adding GCC-C++ and GCC-MINGW-C++ allowed configure for 3.01 to run to
completion.

Phil - the last time I checked make was on hdt3270 or so

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Gunnar Opheim

2003-12-15 17:10:23 UTC

Volker,

I have experienced the same thing lately. It depends on which site you
download from.

This is the gcc lines you choose among at ftp://ftp.mirror.ac.uk :

gcc: GCC C compiler
gcc-ada: GCC Ada compiler
gcc-core: GCC C compilere source
gcc-g++: GCC C++ compiler
gcc-g77: GCC Fortran compiler
gcc-gpc: GNU Pascal compiler
gcc-java: GCC Java compiler
gcc-mingw: Mingw32 support headers and libraries for GCC
gcc-mingw-ada: Mingw32 support headers and libraries for GCC Ada
gcc-mingw-core: Mingw32 support headers and libraries for GCC
gcc-mingw-g++: Mingw32 support headers and libraries for GCC C++
gcc-mingw-g77: Mingw32 support headers and libraries for GCC Fortran
gcc-mingw-gpc: Mingw32 support headers and libraries for GCC Pascal
gcc-mingw-java: Mingw32 support headers and libraries for GCC Java
gcc-mingw-objc: Mingw32 support headers and libraries for GCC Objc
gcc-objc: GCC ObjC compiler
gcc-testsuite: GCC testsuite

As you can see, C and C++ compilers are two different entries. On the other
hand, if you download from
ftp://cygwin.mirrors.pair.com the choice is just:

gcc: C, C++, Fortran compilers
gcc-mingw: Mingw32 support headers and libraries for GCC

which gives you both compilers in the same entry.

Gunnar Opheim.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Volker Bandke" <vbandke-YBl2UDX+LVZWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org>
To: <hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] Re: LCS OS/390

Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Phil,
you probably upgraded to a newer version of gcc. When I did this
yesterday on one of my systems, the same thing happened. Not
wanting to go on a wild goose chase, also knowing that Cygwin is a
moving target, I just added the other gcc compiler facilities from
the Cygwin setup. That helped, and the error went away. I will just
upgrade the "prerequisites" to say "everything called gcc something"
--
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
Bank error in your favour. collect $200.
(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)
- -----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: LCS OS/390

Post by Harold Grovesteen
<snip>

This is strange. What OS are you trying to build it on?

CYGWIN on Windows
checking dlfcn.h usability... yes
checking dlfcn.h presence... yes
checking for dlfcn.h... yes
checking for g++... no
checking for c++... no
checking for gpp... no
checking for aCC... no
checking for CC... CC
checking whether we are using the GNU C++ compiler... no
checking whether CC accepts -g... no
checking dependency style of CC... gcc3
checking how to run the C++ preprocessor... /lib/cpp
configure: error: C++ preprocessor "/lib/cpp" fails sanity check
See `config.log' for more details.
Phil - config.log says failures in several areas - will send offline
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tonym

2003-12-13 04:46:04 UTC

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Paul Raulerson" <paul-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:31:56 -0600

Post by Paul Raulerson
----- Original Message -----
From: tonym
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 05:05:29 -0600
OH yeah- we have 8 Compaq servers (DL380 and DL360's.) The DL380's are pretty reliable, but
conk out about once a year. New riser, new mothboard, new power supply, new HBA, something.
The DL360's are fast and work well, and work as our Citrix servers. They also have crashed (BSOD)
about a half dozen times related to either hardware or WIndows problems in the past year.

Paul Raulerson

2003-12-13 04:56:07 UTC

Where were you when I needed you?!

How do you feel about the IBM blade servers? That is what I plan to replace them with,
partly for the space, but mostly looking for best possible reliability at reasonable cost.
We don't use PCs for much mission critical stuff at this point.

Advice welcome.

-Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: tonym
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Paul Raulerson" <paul-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:31:56 -0600

I DID say a decent machine. DL380's, are nothing more than slightly modified 1850R's, which
are NOTORIOUS for failure. I deployed well over 100+ combined 1850R/D380's between 1999-2001.
DL320/360/380(1850R) were entry-level servers, at any rate. IDE drives on the 320. Unreliable
PS's on the both 320/360. And I believe everyone knows the faults of the 1850R.
To begin with, that chassis couldn't keep my wristwatch cool.
The processor slots are WAY to close together for proper heat dissipation.
The Rage XL graphics suck.
The only good array card is the 3200, which was extremely expensive.
Insufficient cooling in the hot-swap drive cage.
And the list goes on....

Compare to a nice ML series servers, or mebbe at least a Q 6000R. IBM/SGI intel servers.

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Jay Maynard

2003-12-13 23:43:35 UTC

Post by tonym
I DID say a decent machine. DL380's, are nothing more than slightly
modified 1850R's, which are NOTORIOUS for failure. I deployed well over
100+ combined 1850R/D380's between 1999-2001. DL320/360/380(1850R) were
entry-level servers, at any rate. IDE drives on the 320. Unreliable PS's
on the both 320/360.

Smile when you say that, pardner...

During that era, I worked for Compaq in QA on array storage. We drove all of
the servers, from DL320s through 8500s, as hard (or maybe harder: they got
run long periods of time, interspersed with periods when they were powered
off and on 15-20 times a day) as any production server. I never had any of
these problems. I'm not saying you didn't, but your experience may be
atypical.

Post by tonym
And I believe everyone knows the faults of the 1850R.
To begin with, that chassis couldn't keep my wristwatch cool.
The processor slots are WAY to close together for proper heat dissipation.
The Rage XL graphics suck.
The only good array card is the 3200, which was extremely expensive.
Insufficient cooling in the hot-swap drive cage.
And the list goes on....

My Linux Hercules development system (which also has my tape drive
collection attached to it) is an 1850R with dual PIII-550s, 768 MB of RAM,
and a Smart Array 4200 with 4 18 GB drives attached. Yes, it runs hot...but
it also runs solidly.

Post by tonym
Compare to a nice ML series servers, or mebbe at least a Q 6000R. IBM/SGI intel servers.

The DL-series are designed for maximum density in a machine room installation
with adequate cooling available. This means racks with good airflow. The
ML-series are designed to sit on a shelf.

This is getting way off topic for hercules-390...

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tonym

2003-12-13 05:07:57 UTC

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Paul Raulerson" <paul-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:56:07 -0600

Post by Paul Raulerson
Where were you when I needed you?!

Busy trying avoid the 1850R's making me look bad!!!!

Post by Paul Raulerson
How do you feel about the IBM blade servers? That is what I plan to replace them with,
partly for the space, but mostly looking for best possible reliability at reasonable cost.
We don't use PCs for much mission critical stuff at this point.

I haven't much messed with IBM stuff that much yet. I do work with a S. American bank
here in Miami, who is all IBM. Unix server? RS/6000 + AIX. Banking system? AS/400.
Only recently have they started using Q Proliant's. DL380's, no less.
Why did I recommend them?
because I know them. They have matured, and are alot more stable than 3 years ago.
They have (2) Dl380's, (2) ML series, and an incorrecly ordered DL320. IDE server. Blecch!

I go by the old adage: noone ever got fired for buying IBM.
If they have proven reliable in the field, and cost/performance is acceptable, and you
can handle/manage them, why not?
I always recommend: make SURE you get an on-site service plan, 3 years minimum.
That is peace of mind, and is usually a SMALL percentage of system price.

Oh! I forgot the time in 1999-2000 we had to swap out over 200 9GB disks in the 1850R's over a
manufacturing defect! Boy, was THAT fun. IBM had a similar problem in about 2001 or so.

If I can find the pictures, I'll email you some of the racks after deployment on the ships.
They were fun times...until 9/11

Tony

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tonym

2003-12-14 00:48:16 UTC

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:43:35 -0600

Post by Jay Maynard

Smile when you say that, pardner...

I can't - it was a brutal period, and those 1850/DL380's cost me a lot of sleep, and peace and quiet. We usually had a stack of about 5-10 waiting for the weekly engineer visits for repair. Of course, we did have hundreds of these things, so it IS all relative....

Post by Jay Maynard
During that era, I worked for Compaq in QA on array storage. We drove all of
the servers, from DL320s through 8500s, as hard (or maybe harder: they got
run long periods of time, interspersed with periods when they were powered
off and on 15-20 times a day) as any production server. I never had any of
these problems. I'm not saying you didn't, but your experience may be
atypical.

Wasn't my experience - was at the company. We basically had a person, who swas in charge of logistics for Q spares. Most was the 320/360 power supplies (at least 5-10/week), and 9GB drives (1999-2001 we're talking about!). We literally began deploying a spare, not-turned-on server, simply because of the failure rate! Sure, they come with an onsite warrantly, but if you're 400 miles out in the caribbean, what good is that?

Post by Jay Maynard
My Linux Hercules development system (which also has my tape drive
collection attached to it) is an 1850R with dual PIII-550s, 768 MB of RAM,
and a Smart Array 4200 with 4 18 GB drives attached. Yes, it runs hot...but
it also runs solidly.

Post by tonym
Compare to a nice ML series servers, or mebbe at least a Q 6000R. IBM/SGI
intel servers.

The DL-series are designed for maximum density in a machine room installation
with adequate cooling available. This means racks with good airflow. The
ML-series are designed to sit on a shelf.

Hmm...the ML's my customer has are rack units.
http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/servers/proliantml530/index.html

Post by Jay Maynard
This is getting way off topic for hercules-390...

Agreed. But it makes for good conversation.

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tonym

2003-12-14 01:04:30 UTC

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Tzafrir Cohen <tzafrir-V9S867uoigt6auLlOhE+***@public.gmane.org>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 02:58:05 +0200

Post by Jay Maynard
This is getting way off topic for hercules-390...

Agreed. But it makes for good conversation.

That's what private mail is for...

And you had the irresistable urge to email me?
Well, I had the irresistable urge to killfile your domain in
my mail server.

--
Tzafrir Cohen +---------------------------+
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend|

tonym

2003-12-14 01:09:07 UTC

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:46:24 -0600

Post by Jay Maynard

How many PCs have you seen that can be repaired without taking the system
down? Aside from hot-swap power supplies and disk drives, you pretty much
have to drop the whole box to fix something.

Heh...counting on one hand? With 5 fingers cut off? ;)

Post by Jay Maynard
Hercules would probably port to AIX, HP-UX, etcetera with some work, mainly
in discovering which bits of the POSIX standard the indiviual vendors didn't
implement, coding around them, and teching its configuration stuff to deal
with them. The one sine qua non is that it pretty much has to be compiled
with gcc, as there are a lot of gcc-isms in the code.

This would probably be cool, as the machines are available affordably on eBay, and right now there's someone selling AIX 5.0 sealed packages for like $50

How do-able is something like this?
I know even their devices are wierd.

Tony

Still would love Herc running on my 2xR10K SGI Octane

Post by Jay Maynard
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http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
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Kelly F. Hickel

2003-12-14 02:23:57 UTC

To diverge even further, has anyone done any profiling of the herc code? I have an itch to run it through quantify (in my copious spare time (that$B!G(Bs a joke, ha-ha)), but if it$B!G(Bs been well profiled, there$B!G(Bs probably no point.

-Kelly

-----Original Message-----
From: Fish [mailto:fish-6N/dkqvhA+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 6:12 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jay Maynard wrote:

<snip>

Post by Jay Maynard
The one sine qua non is that it pretty much has to be compiled
with gcc, as there are a lot of gcc-isms in the code.

And that is the ONE thing that I personally would like to see fixed!
IMO Herc *should* be written such that it should be able to be
compiled with any ansi/iso compliant c/c++ compiler. That it should
require gcc like it does is not right IMO.

A loooong time ago (several years in fact when I first cam across
Herc) I tried compiling it with M$'s VC++ compiler (which has a
'strict ansi' compile option) and it choked big time. I spent several
hours/days trying to make the needed changes in order to get it to
compile cleanly but finally gave up in total frustration.

Maybe it's time someone looked into this issue again??

- --
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
fish-6N/dkqvhA+***@public.gmane.org

Fight Spam! Join CAUCE!
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Kelly F. Hickel

2003-12-14 02:31:52 UTC

Post by Jim Pierson (Hercules)
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] LCS OS/390
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:46:24 -0600

Post by Jay Maynard

How many PCs have you seen that can be repaired without taking the system
down? Aside from hot-swap power supplies and disk drives, you pretty much
have to drop the whole box to fix something.

Heh...counting on one hand? With 5 fingers cut off? ;)

Well, I've got a netfinity that I'm supposed to be able to replace any two (out of four) cpu's while it's running, and supposed to be able to pull a memory bank without rebooting, plus hot swap drives, and power supplies. Don't know if it would work, as in three years have had 0 minutes of hardware downtime. Now, it's running windows, so I do have to reboot for some things (not as many as some would like you to believe), but I could run various (l)unixes on it if I wished....

<snip>

-Kelly

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tonym

2003-12-14 02:32:09 UTC

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Kelly F. Hickel" <kfh-zEt/***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:31:52 -0600

Well, I've got a netfinity that I'm supposed to be able to >replace any two (out of four) cpu's while it's running, and >supposed to be able to pull a memory bank without rebooting, plus >hot swap drives, and power supplies. Don't know if it would >work, as in three years have had 0 minutes of hardware downtime. >Now, it's running windows, so I do have to reboot for some things >(not as many as some would like you to believe), but I could run >various (l)unixes on it if I wished....

Don't Netfinity's have hot-swap PCI slots as well? I remember seeing a server with hot-swap PCI slots....

<snip>
-Kelly
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
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Klein, Kenneth E

2003-12-15 15:25:33 UTC