The power of prayer

[jdyoung]

https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.

One leading researcher, Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School,
holds that prayer and general stress management can reduce doctor
visits by up to 50 percent. Most patients would agree. In a national
survey, it was revealed that 35 percent of respondents used prayer for
health concerns; 75 percent of these prayed for wellness, and 22
percent prayed for specific medical conditions. Perhaps most
important, 69 percent of those who prayed for specific medical
conditions found prayer very helpful. With data like this, it makes
moot the convictions of skeptics: what matters is that “Hail Marys”
work.

Many of the skeptics, of course, eschew any evidence that does not
comport with their view of reality. Dr. Jeff Levin, an epidemiologist
and former medical school professor, contends that the “resistance and
hostility that some scientists and physicians show to this topic stem,
I believe, from an unwillingness to consider explanations that
undermine a strictly materialistic worldview.”

Perhaps the most controversial aspect of prayer and better well-being
is whether praying for others actually has beneficial consequences. As
it turns out, what is called “absent prayer,” or “intercessory
prayer,” does yield positive outcomes. When people are asked to pray
for a specific person, whom they do not know, but who is suffering
from an illness, and the recipient of prayer has no knowledge that
this is happening, most of these “double blind” studies show that
patients who are prayed for improve better than those patients with
the same condition but who did not have anyone pray for them.

One of the earliest and most prominent studies ever done on the health
effects of intercessory prayer was conducted by Dr. Randolph C. Byrd
in 1988. In a study of 393 people admitted to the coronary care unit
at San Francisco General Hospital, the patients were divided into two
groups.

Half the group was selected for intercessory prayer by devout
Christians, and the other half received no such treatment; the
patients were randomly assigned and neither the patients nor the
health staff had a clue which was the experiential group and which was
the control group. The former fared significantly better than the
latter.

Two explanations are possible: praying for others works, or the
results were due to chance. However, the odds that this was due to
chance were one in 10,000. Those who did the praying were all devout
Catholics and Protestants. Dr. Byrd concluded that these findings
“suggest intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God had a
beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU [coronary
care unit].”

In a similar study done in 1999 of nearly 1,000 patients in the CCU at
St. Luke’s Hospital in Kansas City, it was found that those who were
unwittingly prayed for fared better than those who got conventional
care alone. In 1998, similar conclusions were reached with AIDS
patients in a study published in the Western Journal of Medicine:
those who were prayed for did better than their non-prayed for
counterparts.

Numerous scientific studies have found that prayer lowers depression
and suicide rates. It even lowers blood pressure.

There was a big study published in 2006 of 1,800 patients that did not
confirm what these other studies found. It was led by Dr. Benson so it
cannot be dismissed. The patients were broken up into three groups:
two were prayed for and the third was not. Half the patients were told
they were being prayed for, and half were told they might receive
prayers. This time the researchers found no difference between the
various groups.

In 2007, however, a new study published by a professor from Arizona
State University found the prayer had positive effects. It is an
important study because it was a comprehensive analysis of 17 major
studies on the effects of intercessory prayer.

The author, David R. Hodge, explained its significance. “This study
enables us to look at the big picture. When the effects of prayer are
averaged across all 17 studies, controlling for differences in sample
size, a net positive effect for the prayer group is produced.”

In other words, most studies done on the efficacy of intercessory
prayer show the power of prayer—it works.

We should expect scientists to rigorously assess the data from all
studies, regardless of what the subject is. That is their job. But we
should also expect them to be open-minded enough to say that some
findings cannot be easily explained. With a little prayer, maybe they
can figure it out.



J Young
***@ymail.com

[JWS]

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.
One leading researcher, Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School,
holds that prayer and general stress management can reduce doctor
visits by up to 50 percent. Most patients would agree. In a national
survey, it was revealed that 35 percent of respondents used prayer for
health concerns; 75 percent of these prayed for wellness, and 22
percent prayed for specific medical conditions. Perhaps most
important, 69 percent of those who prayed for specific medical
conditions found prayer very helpful. With data like this, it makes
moot the convictions of skeptics: what matters is that “Hail Marys”
work.
Many of the skeptics, of course, eschew any evidence that does not
comport with their view of reality. Dr. Jeff Levin, an epidemiologist
and former medical school professor, contends that the “resistance and
hostility that some scientists and physicians show to this topic stem,
I believe, from an unwillingness to consider explanations that
undermine a strictly materialistic worldview.”
Perhaps the most controversial aspect of prayer and better well-being
is whether praying for others actually has beneficial consequences. As
it turns out, what is called “absent prayer,” or “intercessory
prayer,” does yield positive outcomes. When people are asked to pray
for a specific person, whom they do not know, but who is suffering
from an illness, and the recipient of prayer has no knowledge that
this is happening, most of these “double blind” studies show that
patients who are prayed for improve better than those patients with
the same condition but who did not have anyone pray for them.
One of the earliest and most prominent studies ever done on the health
effects of intercessory prayer was conducted by Dr. Randolph C. Byrd
in 1988. In a study of 393 people admitted to the coronary care unit
at San Francisco General Hospital, the patients were divided into two
groups.
Half the group was selected for intercessory prayer by devout
Christians, and the other half received no such treatment; the
patients were randomly assigned and neither the patients nor the
health staff had a clue which was the experiential group and which was
the control group. The former fared significantly better than the
latter.
Two explanations are possible: praying for others works, or the
results were due to chance. However, the odds that this was due to
chance were one in 10,000. Those who did the praying were all devout
Catholics and Protestants. Dr. Byrd concluded that these findings
“suggest intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God had a
beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU [coronary
care unit].”
In a similar study done in 1999 of nearly 1,000 patients in the CCU at
St. Luke’s Hospital in Kansas City, it was found that those who were
unwittingly prayed for fared better than those who got conventional
care alone. In 1998, similar conclusions were reached with AIDS
those who were prayed for did better than their non-prayed for
counterparts.
Numerous scientific studies have found that prayer lowers depression
and suicide rates. It even lowers blood pressure.
There was a big study published in 2006 of 1,800 patients that did not
confirm what these other studies found. It was led by Dr. Benson so it
two were prayed for and the third was not. Half the patients were told
they were being prayed for, and half were told they might receive
prayers. This time the researchers found no difference between the
various groups.
In 2007, however, a new study published by a professor from Arizona
State University found the prayer had positive effects. It is an
important study because it was a comprehensive analysis of 17 major
studies on the effects of intercessory prayer.
The author, David R. Hodge, explained its significance. “This study
enables us to look at the big picture. When the effects of prayer are
averaged across all 17 studies, controlling for differences in sample
size, a net positive effect for the prayer group is produced.”
In other words, most studies done on the efficacy of intercessory
prayer show the power of prayer—it works.
We should expect scientists to rigorously assess the data from all
studies, regardless of what the subject is. That is their job. But we
should also expect them to be open-minded enough to say that some
findings cannot be easily explained. With a little prayer, maybe they
can figure it out.
J Young

Mathew 18:19
“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven."

I guess no two people have ever asked for COVID-19
to be removed from the earth. It's always easy to
show that your babble is wrong, using the babble itself.

You're just pissing into the wind.

[Oko tillo]

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.
One leading researcher, Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School,
holds that prayer and general stress management can reduce doctor
visits by up to 50 percent. Most patients would agree. In a national
survey, it was revealed that 35 percent of respondents used prayer for
health concerns; 75 percent of these prayed for wellness, and 22
percent prayed for specific medical conditions. Perhaps most
important, 69 percent of those who prayed for specific medical
conditions found prayer very helpful. With data like this, it makes
moot the convictions of skeptics: what matters is that “Hail Marys”
work.
Many of the skeptics, of course, eschew any evidence that does not
comport with their view of reality. Dr. Jeff Levin, an epidemiologist
and former medical school professor, contends that the “resistance and
hostility that some scientists and physicians show to this topic stem,
I believe, from an unwillingness to consider explanations that
undermine a strictly materialistic worldview.”
Perhaps the most controversial aspect of prayer and better well-being
is whether praying for others actually has beneficial consequences. As
it turns out, what is called “absent prayer,” or “intercessory
prayer,” does yield positive outcomes. When people are asked to pray
for a specific person, whom they do not know, but who is suffering
from an illness, and the recipient of prayer has no knowledge that
this is happening, most of these “double blind” studies show that
patients who are prayed for improve better than those patients with
the same condition but who did not have anyone pray for them.
One of the earliest and most prominent studies ever done on the health
effects of intercessory prayer was conducted by Dr. Randolph C. Byrd
in 1988. In a study of 393 people admitted to the coronary care unit
at San Francisco General Hospital, the patients were divided into two
groups.
Half the group was selected for intercessory prayer by devout
Christians, and the other half received no such treatment; the
patients were randomly assigned and neither the patients nor the
health staff had a clue which was the experiential group and which was
the control group. The former fared significantly better than the
latter.
Two explanations are possible: praying for others works, or the
results were due to chance. However, the odds that this was due to
chance were one in 10,000. Those who did the praying were all devout
Catholics and Protestants. Dr. Byrd concluded that these findings
“suggest intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God had a
beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU [coronary
care unit].”

Byrd viewed P < 0.05 as being significant -- one chance in twenty of a
result's having been due to chance -- but given that more than 20 different
variables were examined, probability alone suggests that one or more
will by pure chance alone to appear have been significant.

But even if we accept each of those as meaningful, consider: God helped out
in only 6 of the 26 categories. Picky God. And even when He allegedly did, He only
helped a few, five to seven percent of patients. Why did God decide to help only
one in 14 to one in 20 of those prayed for?

"And what can be said about the evidence for God's omnipotence? It
is true, assuming that Byrd's data are valid, that in the IP
group, 5 percent fewer patients needed diuretics, 7 percent fewer
needed antibiotics, 6 percent fewer needed respiratory intubation
and/or ventilation, 6 percent fewer developed congestive heart
failure, 5 percent fewer developed pneumonia, and 5 percent fewer
suffered cardiopulmonary arrest. But no significant differences
were found among the other twenty categories, including mortality,
despite explicit prayers "for prevention of . . . death." And,
reports Byrd, "Even though for [the six seemingly significant]
variables the P values were less than .05, they could not be
considered statistically significant because of the large number
of variables examined. I used two methods to overcome this
statistical limitation . . . [the] severity score, and
multivariant [sic] analysis" (emphasis added)".

And further, Byrd's the variables were not independent:

"But was this lack of significance truly "overcome"? One must note
the interrelationships among these six categories: for instance,
the development of congestive heart failure automatically leads to
the need for diuretics; the development of pneumonia automatically
requires the use of antibiotics; and the development of either
would likely increase the risk of developing the other, of
requiring intubation or ventilation, and of suffering
cardiopulmonary arrest. Thus, the development of any single
complication may automatically lead to a cascade of other
complications and therapeutic interventions that cannot be
considered independent events, rendering the significance of
Byrd's data highly doubtful".

Nor did those prayed for get out of the ICU faster, get out of the hospital faster,
nor require less medication following their release:

"In addition to the twenty-six categories previously described,
three further variables were tracked during the study and tested
for significance: "Days in CCU after entry," "Days in hospital
after entry," and "Number of discharge medications." No
significant differences between the prayer and control groups were
found, despite explicit prayers for "a rapid recovery." Are we
thus to conclude from all of the data derived in this study that
although God may reflexively respond to the will of the majority,
his manifestations are so marginal as to approach insignificance?"

-- https://www.gpposner.com/Byrd_study.html

I have not looked at the rest of this yet.

Oko

Post by jdyoung
In a similar study done in 1999 of nearly 1,000 patients in the CCU at
St. Luke’s Hospital in Kansas City, it was found that those who were
unwittingly prayed for fared better than those who got conventional
care alone. In 1998, similar conclusions were reached with AIDS
those who were prayed for did better than their non-prayed for
counterparts.
Numerous scientific studies have found that prayer lowers depression
and suicide rates. It even lowers blood pressure.
There was a big study published in 2006 of 1,800 patients that did not
confirm what these other studies found. It was led by Dr. Benson so it
two were prayed for and the third was not. Half the patients were told
they were being prayed for, and half were told they might receive
prayers. This time the researchers found no difference between the
various groups.
In 2007, however, a new study published by a professor from Arizona
State University found the prayer had positive effects. It is an
important study because it was a comprehensive analysis of 17 major
studies on the effects of intercessory prayer.
The author, David R. Hodge, explained its significance. “This study
enables us to look at the big picture. When the effects of prayer are
averaged across all 17 studies, controlling for differences in sample
size, a net positive effect for the prayer group is produced.”
In other words, most studies done on the efficacy of intercessory
prayer show the power of prayer—it works.
We should expect scientists to rigorously assess the data from all
studies, regardless of what the subject is. That is their job. But we
should also expect them to be open-minded enough to say that some
findings cannot be easily explained. With a little prayer, maybe they
can figure it out.
J Young

[Andrew]

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

[Oko tillo]

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

I'd prefer instead that you not snip out each of my points.

Next, I'd prefer you to attempt to critique each of them, point by point.

And yes, I do understand that that happening would be exactly as unlikely
as the success of intercessory prayer.


Oko

[Andrew]

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

I'd prefer instead that you not snip out each of my points.

But that's what I do!

Post by Oko tillo
Next, I'd prefer you to attempt to critique each of them, point by point.

Oh sure! Next thing you'll also want a chest of Krugerrands.

Post by Oko tillo
And yes, I do understand that that happening would be exactly as unlikely
as the success of intercessory prayer.

I take it you are _not_ a believer.

Jesus said regarding this. . . . . .

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not
believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the
name of the only begotten Son of God.

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the
world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their
deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and
does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who
does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of
God abides on him."
(John 3)

[Oko tillo]

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew
Would you like us to pray for you?

I'd prefer instead that you not snip out each of my points.

But that's what I do!

Post by Oko tillo
Next, I'd prefer you to attempt to critique each of them, point by point.

Oh sure! Next thing you'll also want a chest of Krugerrands.

A chest of Krugerrands is significantly more likely than your being able
to discuss actual science with me, as we have far too often learned.

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
And yes, I do understand that that happening would be exactly as unlikely
as the success of intercessory prayer.

I take it you are _not_ a believer.

Wow! You *did* figure it out!

Post by Andrew
Jesus said regarding this. . . . . .
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not
believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the
name of the only begotten Son of God.
"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the
world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their
deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and
does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who
does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of
God abides on him."
(John 3)

Why are you so gullible to believe
that, since it is only a story that you have been told?

Oko

[Andrew]

"Oko tillo" wrote in message news:eb769c39-cd2d-40dd-bdc6-***@googlegroups.com...
<>

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew
I take it you are _not_ a believer.

Wow! You *did* figure it out!

Post by Andrew
Jesus said....
"He who..does not believe the Son
shall not see life, but the wrath of
God abides on him." (John 3)

[Andrew]

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

I'd prefer instead that you not snip out
each of my points.

But that's what I do!

And that shows you can't respond to his points,

Oko's points and questions are motivated by
his agenda, and his agenda is _not_the truth.

You and anyone else are free to address him
and his points.

[Oko tillo]

Post by Andrew

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I'd prefer instead that you not snip out
each of my points.

But that's what I do!

And that shows you can't respond to his points,

Oko's points and questions are motivated by
his agenda, and his agenda is _not_the truth.

Claiming that someone has an "agenda" is an ad hominem
employed by those foolishly fighting against ----> the truth.

Post by Andrew
You and anyone else are free to address him
and his points.

As are you. And yet somehow you cannot.

Would you like a little list of those times you could not?
It's WAY out of date, so there are only 16 links in it,
but hey: it's a start.

Deal?


Oko

[Andrew]

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I'd prefer instead that you not snip out
each of my points.

But that's what I do!

And that shows you can't respond to his points,

Oko's points and questions are motivated by
his agenda, and his agenda is _not_the truth.

Claiming that someone has an "agenda" is an ad hominem

It would be construed to be only if you were guilty.

Post by Oko tillo
employed by those foolishly fighting against ----> the truth.

Post by Andrew
You and anyone else are free to address him
and his points.

As are you. And yet somehow you cannot.

What is your question (sans agenda no links) ?

[Oko tillo]

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I'd prefer instead that you not snip out
each of my points.

But that's what I do!

And that shows you can't respond to his points,

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew
Oko's points and questions are motivated by
his agenda, and his agenda is _not_the truth.

Claiming that someone has an "agenda" is an ad hominem

It would be construed to be only if you were guilty.

As Andrew continues foolishly fighting against ** the truth **

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
employed by those foolishly fighting against ----> the truth.

Post by Andrew
You and anyone else are free to address him
and his points.

As are you. And yet somehow you cannot.

What is your question (sans agenda no links) ?

Well, my first question would be why did you at this point rush to snip out:

+ Would you like a little list of those times you could not?
+ It's WAY out of date, so there are only 16 links in it,
+ but hey: it's a start.

+ Deal?

And my second question is why you foolishly think you get to forbid such as these:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/oycmsGOoE3A/khJwneIOBgAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/2pnPei5aUP4/KIrN0_nEBwAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/2pnPei5aUP4/eCJ9HyIlCAAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/4QMp_P-M2_I/pUxI-KoYHQAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/WQ38VylNMWU/V_9WsijKBAAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/9mALlb_X5hk/VpgJRNBPAwAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/XWOjlzxJJxI/kjKH0Kp_EAAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/SrURkhyQ24E/yOw3YiW1CwAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/UrLU4J8h-zY/vYKbwR3jAwAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/PRFl2_vkDaE/6AvfaGgsAAAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/UrLU4J8h-zY/9XMSBCu6HQAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/9vjQIFXYmRs/jHkiuDkmBAAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/1P75Xssdxew/wEmpEM_4HQAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/4QMp_P-M2_I/CVM5pWYYHQAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/yh6Qd8N8OfU/y2la6ukGAwAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/hx1k0UMdu2E/-1aRrJN2EAAJ


Oko

[Andrew]

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I'd prefer instead that you not snip out
each of my points.

But that's what I do!

And that shows you can't respond to his points,

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew
Oko's points and questions are motivated by
his agenda, and his agenda is _not_the truth.

Claiming that someone has an "agenda" is an ad hominem

It would be construed to be only if you were guilty.

As Andrew continues foolishly fighting against ** the truth **

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
employed by those foolishly fighting against ----> the truth.

Post by Andrew
You and anyone else are free to address him
and his points.

As are you. And yet somehow you cannot.

What is your question (sans agenda no links) ?

+ Would you like a little list of those times you could not?
+ It's WAY out of date, so there are only 16 links in it,
+ but hey: it's a start.
+ Deal?

I said (above) no links, and no agenda. But you cannot do so,
thus revealing your mendacity and your aversion to the truth.

Post by Oko tillo
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/oycmsGOoE3A/khJwneIOBgAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/2pnPei5aUP4/KIrN0_nEBwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/2pnPei5aUP4/eCJ9HyIlCAAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/4QMp_P-M2_I/pUxI-KoYHQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/WQ38VylNMWU/V_9WsijKBAAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/9mALlb_X5hk/VpgJRNBPAwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/XWOjlzxJJxI/kjKH0Kp_EAAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/SrURkhyQ24E/yOw3YiW1CwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/UrLU4J8h-zY/vYKbwR3jAwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/PRFl2_vkDaE/6AvfaGgsAAAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/UrLU4J8h-zY/9XMSBCu6HQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/9vjQIFXYmRs/jHkiuDkmBAAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/1P75Xssdxew/wEmpEM_4HQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/4QMp_P-M2_I/CVM5pWYYHQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/yh6Qd8N8OfU/y2la6ukGAwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/hx1k0UMdu2E/-1aRrJN2EAAJ
Oko

[Oko tillo]

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I'd prefer instead that you not snip out
each of my points.

But that's what I do!

And that shows you can't respond to his points,

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew
Oko's points and questions are motivated by
his agenda, and his agenda is _not_the truth.

Claiming that someone has an "agenda" is an ad hominem

It would be construed to be only if you were guilty.

As Andrew continues foolishly fighting against ** the truth **

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
employed by those foolishly fighting against ----> the truth.

Post by Andrew
You and anyone else are free to address him
and his points.

As are you. And yet somehow you cannot.

What is your question (sans agenda no links) ?

+ Would you like a little list of those times you could not?
+ It's WAY out of date, so there are only 16 links in it,
+ but hey: it's a start.
+ Deal?

I said (above) no links, and no agenda.

And I said (below) And my second question is why you foolishly think you get to forbid such as these:

BRAAAP! TIme's up. The correct answer is: you don't.

Post by Andrew
But you cannot do so,
thus revealing your mendacity and your aversion to the truth.

I believe you mean you revealing that you cannot deal with even one single one of these.

Run away, run away, little Andrew. That's what you're adept at.

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/oycmsGOoE3A/khJwneIOBgAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/2pnPei5aUP4/KIrN0_nEBwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/2pnPei5aUP4/eCJ9HyIlCAAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/4QMp_P-M2_I/pUxI-KoYHQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/WQ38VylNMWU/V_9WsijKBAAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/9mALlb_X5hk/VpgJRNBPAwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/XWOjlzxJJxI/kjKH0Kp_EAAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/SrURkhyQ24E/yOw3YiW1CwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/UrLU4J8h-zY/vYKbwR3jAwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/PRFl2_vkDaE/6AvfaGgsAAAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/UrLU4J8h-zY/9XMSBCu6HQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/9vjQIFXYmRs/jHkiuDkmBAAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/1P75Xssdxew/wEmpEM_4HQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/4QMp_P-M2_I/CVM5pWYYHQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/yh6Qd8N8OfU/y2la6ukGAwAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.atheism/hx1k0UMdu2E/-1aRrJN2EAAJ

Oko

[Ivan The Terrible]

Post by Oko tillo
==

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

I'd prefer instead that you not snip out each of my points.
Next, I'd prefer you to attempt to critique each of them, point by point.
And yes, I do understand that that happening would be exactly as unlikely
as the success of intercessory prayer.
Oko

Prayer is not a commercial transaction, STUPID.It is an appeal to god, who does not always give you what you request in return.

[Oko tillo]

Post by Ivan The Terrible

Post by Oko tillo
==

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

I'd prefer instead that you not snip out each of my points.
Next, I'd prefer you to attempt to critique each of them, point by point.
And yes, I do understand that that happening would be exactly as unlikely
as the success of intercessory prayer.
Oko

Prayer is not a commercial transaction, STUPID.It is an appeal to god, who does not always give you what you request in return.

As predictable as ever, Artie pops up in the middle of a years-long running conversation
that he knows nothing about purely because he has spotted someone on his sad
little mental enemies list and just has to snarl off some non-sequitur worthy of Earl,
complete with drearily predictable gratuitous insult.

Really, Artie, you're turning into a crude parody of yourself.


Oko

[Ivan The Terrible]

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Ivan The Terrible

Post by Oko tillo
==

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

I'd prefer instead that you not snip out each of my points.
Next, I'd prefer you to attempt to critique each of them, point by point.
And yes, I do understand that that happening would be exactly as unlikely
as the success of intercessory prayer.
Oko

Prayer is not a commercial transaction, STUPID.It is an appeal to god, who does not always give you what you request in return.

As predictable as ever, Artie pops up in the middle of a years-long running conversation
that he knows nothing about purely because he has spotted someone on his sad
little mental enemies list and just has to snarl off some non-sequitur worthy of Earl,
complete with drearily predictable gratuitous insult.
Really, Artie, you're turning into a crude parody of yourself.
Oko

You got caught saying something ignorant.

[Oko tillo]

Post by Ivan The Terrible

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Ivan The Terrible

Post by Oko tillo
==

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

I'd prefer instead that you not snip out each of my points.
Next, I'd prefer you to attempt to critique each of them, point by point.
And yes, I do understand that that happening would be exactly as unlikely
as the success of intercessory prayer.
Oko

Prayer is not a commercial transaction, STUPID.It is an appeal to god, who does not always give you what you request in return.

As predictable as ever, Artie pops up in the middle of a years-long running conversation
that he knows nothing about purely because he has spotted someone on his sad
little mental enemies list and just has to snarl off some non-sequitur worthy of Earl,
complete with drearily predictable gratuitous insult.
Really, Artie, you're turning into a crude parody of yourself.
Oko

You got caught saying something ignorant.

Not to anyone capable of reading.

But I suppose it could seem so to someone who did not read my response to the original post,
which demonstrated that your"not always" appears to be "seldom-if-ever", and thus blurted out
something totally out of the full context.


Oko

[Ivan The Terrible]

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Ivan The Terrible

Post by Oko tillo
==

Post by Andrew

Post by Oko tillo
I have not looked at the rest of this yet.
Oko

Would you like us to pray for you?

I'd prefer instead that you not snip out each of my points.
Next, I'd prefer you to attempt to critique each of them, point by point.
And yes, I do understand that that happening would be exactly as unlikely
as the success of intercessory prayer.
Oko

Prayer is not a commercial transaction, STUPID.It is an appeal to god, who does not always give you what you request in return.

As predictable as ever, Artie pops up in the middle of a years-long running conversation
that he knows nothing about purely because he has spotted someone on his sad
little mental enemies list and just has to snarl off some non-sequitur worthy of Earl,
complete with drearily predictable gratuitous insult.
Really, Artie, you're turning into a crude parody of yourself.
Oko

You don't predict anything, fucking dumbass.

[Michael Cole]

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.
One leading researcher, Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School,
holds that prayer and general stress management can reduce doctor
visits by up to 50 percent. Most patients would agree. In a national
survey, it was revealed that 35 percent of respondents used prayer for
health concerns; 75 percent of these prayed for wellness, and 22
percent prayed for specific medical conditions. Perhaps most
important, 69 percent of those who prayed for specific medical
conditions found prayer very helpful. With data like this, it makes
moot the convictions of skeptics: what matters is that “Hail Marys”
work.
Many of the skeptics, of course, eschew any evidence that does not
comport with their view of reality. Dr. Jeff Levin, an epidemiologist
and former medical school professor, contends that the “resistance and
hostility that some scientists and physicians show to this topic stem,
I believe, from an unwillingness to consider explanations that
undermine a strictly materialistic worldview.”
Perhaps the most controversial aspect of prayer and better well-being
is whether praying for others actually has beneficial consequences. As
it turns out, what is called “absent prayer,” or “intercessory
prayer,” does yield positive outcomes. When people are asked to pray
for a specific person, whom they do not know, but who is suffering
from an illness, and the recipient of prayer has no knowledge that
this is happening, most of these “double blind” studies show that
patients who are prayed for improve better than those patients with
the same condition but who did not have anyone pray for them.
One of the earliest and most prominent studies ever done on the health
effects of intercessory prayer was conducted by Dr. Randolph C. Byrd
in 1988. In a study of 393 people admitted to the coronary care unit
at San Francisco General Hospital, the patients were divided into two
groups.
Half the group was selected for intercessory prayer by devout
Christians, and the other half received no such treatment; the
patients were randomly assigned and neither the patients nor the
health staff had a clue which was the experiential group and which was
the control group. The former fared significantly better than the
latter.
Two explanations are possible: praying for others works, or the
results were due to chance. However, the odds that this was due to
chance were one in 10,000. Those who did the praying were all devout
Catholics and Protestants. Dr. Byrd concluded that these findings
“suggest intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God had a
beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU [coronary
care unit].”
In a similar study done in 1999 of nearly 1,000 patients in the CCU at
St. Luke’s Hospital in Kansas City, it was found that those who were
unwittingly prayed for fared better than those who got conventional
care alone. In 1998, similar conclusions were reached with AIDS
those who were prayed for did better than their non-prayed for
counterparts.
Numerous scientific studies have found that prayer lowers depression
and suicide rates. It even lowers blood pressure.
There was a big study published in 2006 of 1,800 patients that did not
confirm what these other studies found. It was led by Dr. Benson so it
two were prayed for and the third was not. Half the patients were told
they were being prayed for, and half were told they might receive
prayers. This time the researchers found no difference between the
various groups.
In 2007, however, a new study published by a professor from Arizona
State University found the prayer had positive effects. It is an
important study because it was a comprehensive analysis of 17 major
studies on the effects of intercessory prayer.
The author, David R. Hodge, explained its significance. “This study
enables us to look at the big picture. When the effects of prayer are
averaged across all 17 studies, controlling for differences in sample
size, a net positive effect for the prayer group is produced.”
In other words, most studies done on the efficacy of intercessory
prayer show the power of prayer—it works.
We should expect scientists to rigorously assess the data from all
studies, regardless of what the subject is. That is their job. But we
should also expect them to be open-minded enough to say that some
findings cannot be easily explained. With a little prayer, maybe they
can figure it out.
J Young

Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods. Our ancestors knew what they were doing.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Sat, 16 May 2020 00:28:02 -0700 (PDT), Michael Cole

Post by Michael Cole

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.

Don't be so deliberately and nastily, in-your-face, fucking stupid.

Post by Michael Cole
Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human
sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods. Our ancestors knew what they
were doing.

At best, it's a panacea - if the person being prayed-for believes it.

But at worst, it's counter-effective when the recipient is of a
different religion or none.

When I was close to death in 2006 due to a critical lung condition, I
was already stressed out, and praying for me would have done the
opposite of helping - although I suspect Stella probably prayed for me
and had her friends do the same. But she's a sensible woman, and if
she did that, she never said.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Sat, 16 May 2020 09:04:52 -0500, Christopher A. Lee

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 16 May 2020 00:28:02 -0700 (PDT), Michael Cole

Post by Michael Cole

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.

Don't be so deliberately and nastily, in-your-face, fucking stupid.

I should have added that it's this kind of "thinking" by the
terminally ignorant, deluded morons which just makes things worse.

The people for whom these lies are intended, are stupid enough to
believe them.

Post by Christopher A. Lee

Post by Michael Cole
Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human
sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods. Our ancestors knew what they
were doing.

At best, it's a panacea - if the person being prayed-for believes it.
But at worst, it's counter-effective when the recipient is of a
different religion or none.
When I was close to death in 2006 due to a critical lung condition, I
was already stressed out, and praying for me would have done the
opposite of helping - although I suspect Stella probably prayed for me
and had her friends do the same. But she's a sensible woman, and if
she did that, she never said.

[Ivan The Terrible]

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 16 May 2020 09:04:52 -0500, Christopher A. Lee

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 16 May 2020 00:28:02 -0700 (PDT), Michael Cole

Post by Michael Cole

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.

Don't be so deliberately and nastily, in-your-face, fucking stupid.

I should have added that it's this kind of "thinking" by the
terminally ignorant, deluded morons which just makes things worse.
The people for whom these lies are intended, are stupid enough to
believe them.

Post by Christopher A. Lee

Post by Michael Cole
Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human
sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods. Our ancestors knew what they
were doing.

At best, it's a panacea - if the person being prayed-for believes it.
But at worst, it's counter-effective when the recipient is of a
different religion or none.
When I was close to death in 2006 due to a critical lung condition, I
was already stressed out, and praying for me would have done the
opposite of helping - although I suspect Stella probably prayed for me
and had her friends do the same. But she's a sensible woman, and if
she did that, she never said.

Really? Someone praying for the health of another makes him sicker?
How does that work?

[Oko tillo]

Post by Ivan The Terrible

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 16 May 2020 09:04:52 -0500, Christopher A. Lee

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 16 May 2020 00:28:02 -0700 (PDT), Michael Cole

Post by Michael Cole

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.

Don't be so deliberately and nastily, in-your-face, fucking stupid.

I should have added that it's this kind of "thinking" by the
terminally ignorant, deluded morons which just makes things worse.
The people for whom these lies are intended, are stupid enough to
believe them.

Post by Christopher A. Lee

Post by Michael Cole
Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human
sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods. Our ancestors knew what they
were doing.

At best, it's a panacea - if the person being prayed-for believes it.
But at worst, it's counter-effective when the recipient is of a
different religion or none.

==

Post by Ivan The Terrible

Post by Christopher A. Lee

Post by Christopher A. Lee
When I was close to death in 2006 due to a critical lung condition, I
was already stressed out, and praying for me would have done the
opposite of helping - although I suspect Stella probably prayed for me
and had her friends do the same. But she's a sensible woman, and if
she did that, she never said.

Really? Someone praying for the health of another makes him sicker?
How does that work?

Seriously?

It's kind of obvious.

Christopher. Ferociously anti-religion. Critical condition, "close to death".
Rubbing it in his face anyhow by praying for him in his presence? Further increasing
already extreme levels of stress?

And he clearly says that he expects she and her friends did pray for him anyhow,
but carefully did not subject him to it in his presence. And he does not claim
that this harmed him.


Oko

[Ivan The Terrible]

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 16 May 2020 00:28:02 -0700 (PDT), Michael Cole

Post by Michael Cole

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.

Don't be so deliberately and nastily, in-your-face, fucking stupid.

Post by Michael Cole
Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human
sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods. Our ancestors knew what they
were doing.

At best, it's a panacea - if the person being prayed-for believes it.
But at worst, it's counter-effective when the recipient is of a
different religion or none.
When I was close to death in 2006 due to a critical lung condition, I
was already stressed out, and praying for me would have done the
opposite of helping - although I suspect Stella probably prayed for me
and had her friends do the same. But she's a sensible woman, and if
she did that, she never said.

I doubt that any woman would give a shit about you.(That's what you said to me, isn't it, asshole?)

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by Michael Cole

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.
One leading researcher, Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School,
holds that prayer and general stress management can reduce doctor
visits by up to 50 percent. Most patients would agree. In a national
survey, it was revealed that 35 percent of respondents used prayer for
health concerns; 75 percent of these prayed for wellness, and 22
percent prayed for specific medical conditions. Perhaps most
important, 69 percent of those who prayed for specific medical
conditions found prayer very helpful. With data like this, it makes
moot the convictions of skeptics: what matters is that “Hail Marys”
work.
Many of the skeptics, of course, eschew any evidence that does not
comport with their view of reality. Dr. Jeff Levin, an epidemiologist
and former medical school professor, contends that the “resistance and
hostility that some scientists and physicians show to this topic stem,
I believe, from an unwillingness to consider explanations that
undermine a strictly materialistic worldview.”
Perhaps the most controversial aspect of prayer and better well-being
is whether praying for others actually has beneficial consequences. As
it turns out, what is called “absent prayer,” or “intercessory
prayer,” does yield positive outcomes. When people are asked to pray
for a specific person, whom they do not know, but who is suffering
from an illness, and the recipient of prayer has no knowledge that
this is happening, most of these “double blind” studies show that
patients who are prayed for improve better than those patients with
the same condition but who did not have anyone pray for them.
One of the earliest and most prominent studies ever done on the health
effects of intercessory prayer was conducted by Dr. Randolph C. Byrd
in 1988. In a study of 393 people admitted to the coronary care unit
at San Francisco General Hospital, the patients were divided into two
groups.
Half the group was selected for intercessory prayer by devout
Christians, and the other half received no such treatment; the
patients were randomly assigned and neither the patients nor the
health staff had a clue which was the experiential group and which was
the control group. The former fared significantly better than the
latter.
Two explanations are possible: praying for others works, or the
results were due to chance. However, the odds that this was due to
chance were one in 10,000. Those who did the praying were all devout
Catholics and Protestants. Dr. Byrd concluded that these findings
“suggest intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God had a
beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU [coronary
care unit].”
In a similar study done in 1999 of nearly 1,000 patients in the CCU at
St. Luke’s Hospital in Kansas City, it was found that those who were
unwittingly prayed for fared better than those who got conventional
care alone. In 1998, similar conclusions were reached with AIDS
those who were prayed for did better than their non-prayed for
counterparts.
Numerous scientific studies have found that prayer lowers depression
and suicide rates. It even lowers blood pressure.
There was a big study published in 2006 of 1,800 patients that did not
confirm what these other studies found. It was led by Dr. Benson so it
two were prayed for and the third was not. Half the patients were told
they were being prayed for, and half were told they might receive
prayers. This time the researchers found no difference between the
various groups.
In 2007, however, a new study published by a professor from Arizona
State University found the prayer had positive effects. It is an
important study because it was a comprehensive analysis of 17 major
studies on the effects of intercessory prayer.
The author, David R. Hodge, explained its significance. “This study
enables us to look at the big picture. When the effects of prayer are
averaged across all 17 studies, controlling for differences in sample
size, a net positive effect for the prayer group is produced.”
In other words, most studies done on the efficacy of intercessory
prayer show the power of prayer—it works.
We should expect scientists to rigorously assess the data from all
studies, regardless of what the subject is. That is their job. But we
should also expect them to be open-minded enough to say that some
findings cannot be easily explained. With a little prayer, maybe they
can figure it out.
J Young

Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods. Our ancestors knew what they were doing.

May I quote you to your employer?

----

"Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods."
---"Michael Cole" 5/16/20

"Have a nice day, and feel free to consume as much Zyklon B as you can."
---"Tim"(Beesley) 9/6/19

'Yeah, I'm an atheist! I'd like to gas all theists!!!'
--- "Malte Runz 5/17/19 who thinks it's funny to joke about threatening people he doesn't like.

"Yep, all theists are mass murderers."
---"Peter Pan" 5/9/20

"And trying jumping from a high rise, it is also an illusion!"
---"Yap Honghor" proving asian atheists also have death fantasies.

"I'm not interested in your faggot fantasies, faggot."
--- "Tim"(Beesley) 2/7/19

"Go suck on a can of Zyklon B, you ignorant fuck."
---"Tim"(Beesley) 8/13/17

" I'm the same Christian "killer" I've been for years and years"
---"Greywolf" (Lawrence 'Larry" Flowers) 7/16/19

IC | XC
-------
NI | KA

[Michael Cole]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Michael Cole

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.
One leading researcher, Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School,
holds that prayer and general stress management can reduce doctor
visits by up to 50 percent. Most patients would agree. In a national
survey, it was revealed that 35 percent of respondents used prayer for
health concerns; 75 percent of these prayed for wellness, and 22
percent prayed for specific medical conditions. Perhaps most
important, 69 percent of those who prayed for specific medical
conditions found prayer very helpful. With data like this, it makes
moot the convictions of skeptics: what matters is that “Hail Marys”
work.
Many of the skeptics, of course, eschew any evidence that does not
comport with their view of reality. Dr. Jeff Levin, an epidemiologist
and former medical school professor, contends that the “resistance and
hostility that some scientists and physicians show to this topic stem,
I believe, from an unwillingness to consider explanations that
undermine a strictly materialistic worldview.”
Perhaps the most controversial aspect of prayer and better well-being
is whether praying for others actually has beneficial consequences. As
it turns out, what is called “absent prayer,” or “intercessory
prayer,” does yield positive outcomes. When people are asked to pray
for a specific person, whom they do not know, but who is suffering
from an illness, and the recipient of prayer has no knowledge that
this is happening, most of these “double blind” studies show that
patients who are prayed for improve better than those patients with
the same condition but who did not have anyone pray for them.
One of the earliest and most prominent studies ever done on the health
effects of intercessory prayer was conducted by Dr. Randolph C. Byrd
in 1988. In a study of 393 people admitted to the coronary care unit
at San Francisco General Hospital, the patients were divided into two
groups.
Half the group was selected for intercessory prayer by devout
Christians, and the other half received no such treatment; the
patients were randomly assigned and neither the patients nor the
health staff had a clue which was the experiential group and which was
the control group. The former fared significantly better than the
latter.
Two explanations are possible: praying for others works, or the
results were due to chance. However, the odds that this was due to
chance were one in 10,000. Those who did the praying were all devout
Catholics and Protestants. Dr. Byrd concluded that these findings
“suggest intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God had a
beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU [coronary
care unit].”
In a similar study done in 1999 of nearly 1,000 patients in the CCU at
St. Luke’s Hospital in Kansas City, it was found that those who were
unwittingly prayed for fared better than those who got conventional
care alone. In 1998, similar conclusions were reached with AIDS
those who were prayed for did better than their non-prayed for
counterparts.
Numerous scientific studies have found that prayer lowers depression
and suicide rates. It even lowers blood pressure.
There was a big study published in 2006 of 1,800 patients that did not
confirm what these other studies found. It was led by Dr. Benson so it
two were prayed for and the third was not. Half the patients were told
they were being prayed for, and half were told they might receive
prayers. This time the researchers found no difference between the
various groups.
In 2007, however, a new study published by a professor from Arizona
State University found the prayer had positive effects. It is an
important study because it was a comprehensive analysis of 17 major
studies on the effects of intercessory prayer.
The author, David R. Hodge, explained its significance. “This study
enables us to look at the big picture. When the effects of prayer are
averaged across all 17 studies, controlling for differences in sample
size, a net positive effect for the prayer group is produced.”
In other words, most studies done on the efficacy of intercessory
prayer show the power of prayer—it works.
We should expect scientists to rigorously assess the data from all
studies, regardless of what the subject is. That is their job. But we
should also expect them to be open-minded enough to say that some
findings cannot be easily explained. With a little prayer, maybe they
can figure it out.
J Young

Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods. Our ancestors knew what they were doing.

May I quote you to your employer?

Sure Kurt. My employer is well aware that I am a wiseass.

[Vincent Maycock]

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.

But notice this:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/

"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.
One leading researcher, Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School,
holds that prayer and general stress management can reduce doctor
visits by up to 50 percent. Most patients would agree. In a national
survey, it was revealed that 35 percent of respondents used prayer for
health concerns; 75 percent of these prayed for wellness, and 22
percent prayed for specific medical conditions. Perhaps most
important, 69 percent of those who prayed for specific medical
conditions found prayer very helpful. With data like this, it makes
moot the convictions of skeptics: what matters is that “Hail Marys”
work.
Many of the skeptics, of course, eschew any evidence that does not
comport with their view of reality. Dr. Jeff Levin, an epidemiologist
and former medical school professor, contends that the “resistance and
hostility that some scientists and physicians show to this topic stem,
I believe, from an unwillingness to consider explanations that
undermine a strictly materialistic worldview.”
Perhaps the most controversial aspect of prayer and better well-being
is whether praying for others actually has beneficial consequences. As
it turns out, what is called “absent prayer,” or “intercessory
prayer,” does yield positive outcomes. When people are asked to pray
for a specific person, whom they do not know, but who is suffering
from an illness, and the recipient of prayer has no knowledge that
this is happening, most of these “double blind” studies show that
patients who are prayed for improve better than those patients with
the same condition but who did not have anyone pray for them.
One of the earliest and most prominent studies ever done on the health
effects of intercessory prayer was conducted by Dr. Randolph C. Byrd
in 1988. In a study of 393 people admitted to the coronary care unit
at San Francisco General Hospital, the patients were divided into two
groups.
Half the group was selected for intercessory prayer by devout
Christians, and the other half received no such treatment; the
patients were randomly assigned and neither the patients nor the
health staff had a clue which was the experiential group and which was
the control group. The former fared significantly better than the
latter.
Two explanations are possible: praying for others works, or the
results were due to chance. However, the odds that this was due to
chance were one in 10,000. Those who did the praying were all devout
Catholics and Protestants. Dr. Byrd concluded that these findings
“suggest intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God had a
beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU [coronary
care unit].”
In a similar study done in 1999 of nearly 1,000 patients in the CCU at
St. Luke’s Hospital in Kansas City, it was found that those who were
unwittingly prayed for fared better than those who got conventional
care alone. In 1998, similar conclusions were reached with AIDS
those who were prayed for did better than their non-prayed for
counterparts.
Numerous scientific studies have found that prayer lowers depression
and suicide rates. It even lowers blood pressure.
There was a big study published in 2006 of 1,800 patients that did not
confirm what these other studies found. It was led by Dr. Benson so it
two were prayed for and the third was not. Half the patients were told
they were being prayed for, and half were told they might receive
prayers. This time the researchers found no difference between the
various groups.
In 2007, however, a new study published by a professor from Arizona
State University found the prayer had positive effects. It is an
important study because it was a comprehensive analysis of 17 major
studies on the effects of intercessory prayer.
The author, David R. Hodge, explained its significance. “This study
enables us to look at the big picture. When the effects of prayer are
averaged across all 17 studies, controlling for differences in sample
size, a net positive effect for the prayer group is produced.”
In other words, most studies done on the efficacy of intercessory
prayer show the power of prayer—it works.
We should expect scientists to rigorously assess the data from all
studies, regardless of what the subject is. That is their job. But we
should also expect them to be open-minded enough to say that some
findings cannot be easily explained. With a little prayer, maybe they
can figure it out.
J Young

[SkyEyes]

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.

Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
***@cox.net

[jdyoung]

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

[JWS]

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?

I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

[JWS]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."
If you have other data, let's have it.

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.

That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.

You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.

When will you start?

[JWS]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

There would be no data for that, would there?
It's necessary to provide data for the opposite conclusion.

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

There would be no data for that, would there?

Correct, so why would you make a claim without evidence to support the claim?

You're a very silly person.

[JWS]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

There would be no data for that, would there?

Correct, so why would you make a claim without evidence to support the claim?
You're a very silly person.

The claim is the something DID NOT happen.
You seem to believe that something DID happen without
any supporting evidence. THAT is the position of the
silly person.

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

There would be no data for that, would there?

Correct, so why would you make a claim without evidence to support the claim?
You're a very silly person.

The claim is the something DID NOT happen.
You seem to believe that something DID happen without
any supporting evidence.

I don't claim it did or it didn't. I'm simply saying you have no way to prove that such a thing has never happened in 'all human history'. It's really not complicated
for a normal person.

The burden is on you and the other silly person.

[JWS]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

There would be no data for that, would there?

Correct, so why would you make a claim without evidence to support the claim?
You're a very silly person.

The claim is the something DID NOT happen.
You seem to believe that something DID happen without
any supporting evidence.

I don't claim it did or it didn't. I'm simply saying you have no way to prove that such a thing has never happened in 'all human history'. It's really not complicated
for a normal person.
The burden is on you and the other silly person.

The default is that it never happened if it has
1) never been seen and documented
2) every bit of evidence we DO have says that it can not happen.
I don't claim I can prove it didn't happen. It's the only rational
conclusion from 1 & 2 above.
I you don't claim either way, you just have no opinion. Which is OK.

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

There would be no data for that, would there?

Correct, so why would you make a claim without evidence to support the claim?
You're a very silly person.

The claim is the something DID NOT happen.
You seem to believe that something DID happen without
any supporting evidence.

I don't claim it did or it didn't. I'm simply saying you have no way to prove that such a thing has never happened in 'all human history'. It's really not complicated
for a normal person.
The burden is on you and the other silly person.

The default is that it never happened if it has

You don't take "the default". You make a positive claim.
The burden of proof is on you.

[Peter Pan]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Is it necessary to ask everyone in the world if they have
covid-19 in order to count the number of cases? That
seems like the long way around, like driving from
california to NY via India.

I think the CDC already keeps statistics on miraculously
regrown limbs too. I bet I can tell you the exact number
without even looking.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS
Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence. I don't think
CH is going out on a very thin limb to say it's not
there.

It's like claiming not one single cow has jumped over the
moon in all of bovine history. I'd feel equally safe
making that claim too. Find one, then ridicule me
without mercy.

So God never regrew amputated limbs. Believe it or go to
your grave pouting.

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Is it necessary to ask everyone in the world if they have
covid-19 in order to count the number of cases? That
seems like the long way around, like driving from
california to NY via India.
I think the CDC already keeps statistics on miraculously
regrown limbs too. I bet I can tell you the exact number
without even looking.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS
Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence.

Where is your evidence that it requires 'extraordinary evidence'?

I don't think

Post by Peter Pan
CH is going out on a very thin limb to say it's not
there.
It's like claiming not one single cow has jumped over the
moon in all of bovine history.

Of course, no one has ever claimed such a thing.

Post by Peter Pan
I'd feel equally safe
making that claim too.

Equally? So you don't believe in cows either?!

Post by Peter Pan
Find one, then ridicule me
without mercy.

You haven't thought this through.

Post by Peter Pan
So God never regrew amputated limbs.
Believe it or go to your grave pouting.

You'll go to yours knowing you can never be sure.

----

"Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods."
---"Michael Cole" 5/16/20

"Have a nice day, and feel free to consume as much Zyklon B as you can."
---"Tim"(Beesley) 9/6/19

'Yeah, I'm an atheist! I'd like to gas all theists!!!'
--- "Malte Runz 5/17/19 who thinks it's funny to joke about threatening people he doesn't like.

"Yep, all theists are mass murderers."
---"Peter Pan" 5/9/20

"Go suck on a can of Zyklon B, you ignorant fuck."
---"Tim"(Beesley) 8/13/17

" I'm the same Christian "killer" I've been for years and years"
---"Greywolf" (Lawrence 'Larry" Flowers) 7/16/19

IC | XC
-------
NI | KA

[Peter Pan]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Is it necessary to ask everyone in the world if they have
covid-19 in order to count the number of cases? That
seems like the long way around, like driving from
california to NY via India.
I think the CDC already keeps statistics on miraculously
regrown limbs too. I bet I can tell you the exact number
without even looking.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS
Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence.

Where is your evidence that it requires 'extraordinary evidence'?

Carl Sagan.

Of course, you beleive nuttier things by faith alone, so
don't let sanity get in your way.

Post by Kurt Nicklas
I don't think

Post by Peter Pan
CH is going out on a very thin limb to say it's not
there.
It's like claiming not one single cow has jumped over the
moon in all of bovine history.

Of course, no one has ever claimed such a thing.

The claim has been made... I read it in a book once.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
I'd feel equally safe
making that claim too.

Equally? So you don't believe in cows either?!

You believe in spooky supernatural shit but you don't
believe in cows?

We're heading off into the weeds here.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
Find one, then ridicule me
without mercy.

You haven't thought this through.

Post by Peter Pan
So God never regrew amputated limbs.
Believe it or go to your grave pouting.

You'll go to yours knowing you can never be sure.

Have you repented of your mass murders yet?

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Is it necessary to ask everyone in the world if they have
covid-19 in order to count the number of cases? That
seems like the long way around, like driving from
california to NY via India.
I think the CDC already keeps statistics on miraculously
regrown limbs too. I bet I can tell you the exact number
without even looking.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS
Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence.

Where is your evidence that it requires 'extraordinary evidence'?

Carl Sagan.
Of course, you beleive nuttier things by faith alone, so
don't let sanity get in your way.

Post by Kurt Nicklas
I don't think

Post by Peter Pan
CH is going out on a very thin limb to say it's not
there.
It's like claiming not one single cow has jumped over the
moon in all of bovine history.

Of course, no one has ever claimed such a thing.

The claim has been made... I read it in a book once.

Suuuure you did.

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
I'd feel equally safe
making that claim too.

Equally? So you don't believe in cows either?!

You believe in spooky supernatural shit but you don't
believe in cows?

The question was addressed to you but it went right over your head.

Post by Peter Pan
We're heading off into the weeds here.

You've been there for quite some time.

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
Find one, then ridicule me
without mercy.

You haven't thought this through.

Post by Peter Pan
So God never regrew amputated limbs.
Believe it or go to your grave pouting.

You'll go to yours knowing you can never be sure.

Have you repented of your mass murders yet?

Oh, did my last sentence cut a little too close?

Poor you.

----

"Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods."
---"Michael Cole" 5/16/20

"Have a nice day, and feel free to consume as much Zyklon B as you can."
---"Tim"(Beesley) 9/6/19

'Yeah, I'm an atheist! I'd like to gas all theists!!!'
--- "Malte Runz 5/17/19 who thinks it's funny to joke about threatening people he doesn't like.

"Yep, all theists are mass murderers."
---"Peter Pan" 5/9/20

"Go suck on a can of Zyklon B, you ignorant fuck."
---"Tim"(Beesley) 8/13/17

" I'm the same Christian "killer" I've been for years and years"
---"Greywolf" (Lawrence 'Larry" Flowers) 7/16/19

IC | XC
-------
NI | KA

[Peter Pan]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Is it necessary to ask everyone in the world if they have
covid-19 in order to count the number of cases? That
seems like the long way around, like driving from
california to NY via India.
I think the CDC already keeps statistics on miraculously
regrown limbs too. I bet I can tell you the exact number
without even looking.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS
Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence.

Where is your evidence that it requires 'extraordinary evidence'?

Carl Sagan.
Of course, you beleive nuttier things by faith alone, so
don't let sanity get in your way.

You're done discussing whether limb regrowth is an
extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence?

That was quick.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas
I don't think

Post by Peter Pan
CH is going out on a very thin limb to say it's not
there.

Sorry -- SkyEyes, not CH.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
It's like claiming not one single cow has jumped over the
moon in all of bovine history.

Of course, no one has ever claimed such a thing.

The claim has been made... I read it in a book once.

Suuuure you did.

It was written for 3 year olds. That may have been
beyond your years.

So have we established that you think a cow jumping over
the moon could be plausible on its face?

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
I'd feel equally safe
making that claim too.

Equally? So you don't believe in cows either?!

You believe in spooky supernatural shit but you don't
believe in cows?

The question was addressed to you but it went right over your head.

You brought up the topic of disbelief in cows, not me.
Can I help it if you don't comprehend before replying? It
wouldn't be the first time.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
Have you repented of your mass murders yet?

Oh, did my last sentence cut a little too close?
Poor you.

Uh oh... Kurt is on the rampage! Take cover!

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Is it necessary to ask everyone in the world if they have
covid-19 in order to count the number of cases? That
seems like the long way around, like driving from
california to NY via India.
I think the CDC already keeps statistics on miraculously
regrown limbs too. I bet I can tell you the exact number
without even looking.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS
Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence.

Where is your evidence that it requires 'extraordinary evidence'?

Carl Sagan.
Of course, you beleive nuttier things by faith alone, so
don't let sanity get in your way.

You're done discussing whether limb regrowth is an
extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence?
That was quick.

Given your content in the balance of this post I think it's
obvious it's you who's run up the rhetorical flag here, "Peter".

I expected better of you. I really did.

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas
I don't think

Post by Peter Pan
CH is going out on a very thin limb to say it's not
there.

Sorry -- SkyEyes, not CH.

Who cares?

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
It's like claiming not one single cow has jumped over the
moon in all of bovine history.

Of course, no one has ever claimed such a thing.

The claim has been made... I read it in a book once.

Suuuure you did.

It was written for 3 year olds. That may have been
beyond your years.

Yet you used it for evidence of something. Poor you.

Post by Peter Pan
So have we established that you think a cow jumping over
the moon could be plausible on its face?

We established that when an atheist can't win an argument it's best
for him to change the subject.

Right, "Peter"?

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
I'd feel equally safe
making that claim too.

Equally? So you don't believe in cows either?!

You believe in spooky supernatural shit but you don't
believe in cows?

The question was addressed to you but it went right over your head.

You brought up the topic of disbelief in cows, not me.

Nah, I brought up your irrational, unprovable claim and how
you'd need a time machine to confirm the claim.

Then you started throwing straw.

Remember?

Post by Peter Pan
Can I help it if you don't comprehend before replying? It
wouldn't be the first time.

But you don't want to discuss your unprovable claim, do you?

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
Have you repented of your mass murders yet?

Oh, did my last sentence cut a little too close?
Poor you.

Uh oh... Kurt is on the rampage! Take cover!

You love me. You really do.

Now,throw that straw, "Peter"!

----

"Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods."
---"Michael Cole" 5/16/20

"Have a nice day, and feel free to consume as much Zyklon B as you can."
---"Tim"(Beesley) 9/6/19

'Yeah, I'm an atheist! I'd like to gas all theists!!!'
--- "Malte Runz 5/17/19 who thinks it's funny to joke about threatening people he doesn't like.

"Yep, all theists are mass murderers."
---"Peter Pan" 5/9/20

"Go suck on a can of Zyklon B, you ignorant fuck."
---"Tim"(Beesley) 8/13/17

" I'm the same Christian "killer" I've been for years and years"
---"Greywolf" (Lawrence 'Larry" Flowers) 7/16/19

IC | XC
-------
NI | KA

[Peter Pan]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Is it necessary to ask everyone in the world if they have
covid-19 in order to count the number of cases? That
seems like the long way around, like driving from
california to NY via India.
I think the CDC already keeps statistics on miraculously
regrown limbs too. I bet I can tell you the exact number
without even looking.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS
Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence.

Where is your evidence that it requires 'extraordinary evidence'?

Carl Sagan.
Of course, you beleive nuttier things by faith alone, so
don't let sanity get in your way.

You're done discussing whether limb regrowth is an
extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence?
That was quick.

Given your content in the balance of this post I think it's
obvious it's you who's run up the rhetorical flag here, "Peter".
I expected better of you. I really did.

I'll take that as a yes.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas
I don't think

Post by Peter Pan
CH is going out on a very thin limb to say it's not
there.

Sorry -- SkyEyes, not CH.

Who cares?

A matter of accuracy. You wouldn't get it.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
It's like claiming not one single cow has jumped over the
moon in all of bovine history.

Of course, no one has ever claimed such a thing.

The claim has been made... I read it in a book once.

Suuuure you did.

It was written for 3 year olds. That may have been
beyond your years.

Yet you used it for evidence of something. Poor you.

Post by Peter Pan
So have we established that you think a cow jumping over
the moon could be plausible on its face?

We established that when an atheist can't win an argument it's best
for him to change the subject.
Right, "Peter"?

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
I'd feel equally safe
making that claim too.

Equally? So you don't believe in cows either?!

You believe in spooky supernatural shit but you don't
believe in cows?

The question was addressed to you but it went right over your head.

You brought up the topic of disbelief in cows, not me.

Nah, I brought up your irrational, unprovable claim and how
you'd need a time machine to confirm the claim.
Then you started throwing straw.
Remember?

I drew an analogy between believing prayer caused
magically regrown limbs, and believing a cow jumped over
the moon. You tried to twist that into whether or not
cows exist.

What did you say about throwing straws? I can't hear you.

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Is it necessary to ask everyone in the world if they have
covid-19 in order to count the number of cases? That
seems like the long way around, like driving from
california to NY via India.
I think the CDC already keeps statistics on miraculously
regrown limbs too. I bet I can tell you the exact number
without even looking.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS
Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence.

Where is your evidence that it requires 'extraordinary evidence'?

Carl Sagan.
Of course, you beleive nuttier things by faith alone, so
don't let sanity get in your way.

You're done discussing whether limb regrowth is an
extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence?
That was quick.

Given your content in the balance of this post I think it's
obvious it's you who's run up the rhetorical flag here, "Peter".
I expected better of you. I really did.

I'll take that as a yes.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas
I don't think

Post by Peter Pan
CH is going out on a very thin limb to say it's not
there.

Sorry -- SkyEyes, not CH.

Who cares?

A matter of accuracy. You wouldn't get it.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
It's like claiming not one single cow has jumped over the
moon in all of bovine history.

Of course, no one has ever claimed such a thing.

The claim has been made... I read it in a book once.

Suuuure you did.

It was written for 3 year olds. That may have been
beyond your years.

Yet you used it for evidence of something. Poor you.

Post by Peter Pan
So have we established that you think a cow jumping over
the moon could be plausible on its face?

We established that when an atheist can't win an argument it's best
for him to change the subject.
Right, "Peter"?

I'll take your silence as a 'Yes'.

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
I'd feel equally safe
making that claim too.

Equally? So you don't believe in cows either?!

You believe in spooky supernatural shit but you don't
believe in cows?

The question was addressed to you but it went right over your head.

You brought up the topic of disbelief in cows, not me.

Nah, I brought up your irrational, unprovable claim and how
you'd need a time machine to confirm the claim.
Then you started throwing straw.
Remember?

I drew an analogy between believing prayer caused
magically regrown limbs,
and believing a cow jumped over
the moon.

No, you took an unprovable claim and started throwing
straw because you couldn't prove it...

Post by Peter Pan
You tried to twist that into whether or not
cows exist.

...then you morphed a flying cow into a smelly red herring packed inside
a big bale of straw, and now you're zig-zagging away from the original claim
at warp speed.

Post by Peter Pan
What did you say about throwing straws? I can't hear you.

Yes, you can, even as you run away, "Peter".

[Peter Pan]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?

You don't think they would know if they'd been healed?
I think jdyoung's question is spot on.

Is it necessary to ask everyone in the world if they have
covid-19 in order to count the number of cases? That
seems like the long way around, like driving from
california to NY via India.
I think the CDC already keeps statistics on miraculously
regrown limbs too. I bet I can tell you the exact number
without even looking.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by JWS
Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

The claim was that there was no one "in all of human history" who had been healed.
That's a preposterous, unprovable claim unless you have a time machine.
You can make the claim that you know of no healing but that's not going to prove the silly 'in all of human history' claim.

Post by JWS
If you have other data, let's have it.

You make the claim...you provide the data.
When will you start?

An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence.

Where is your evidence that it requires 'extraordinary evidence'?

Carl Sagan.
Of course, you beleive nuttier things by faith alone, so
don't let sanity get in your way.

You're done discussing whether limb regrowth is an
extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence?
That was quick.

Given your content in the balance of this post I think it's
obvious it's you who's run up the rhetorical flag here, "Peter".
I expected better of you. I really did.

I'll take that as a yes.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas
I don't think

Post by Peter Pan
CH is going out on a very thin limb to say it's not
there.

Sorry -- SkyEyes, not CH.

Who cares?

A matter of accuracy. You wouldn't get it.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
It's like claiming not one single cow has jumped over the
moon in all of bovine history.

Of course, no one has ever claimed such a thing.

The claim has been made... I read it in a book once.

Suuuure you did.

It was written for 3 year olds. That may have been
beyond your years.

Yet you used it for evidence of something. Poor you.

Post by Peter Pan
So have we established that you think a cow jumping over
the moon could be plausible on its face?

We established that when an atheist can't win an argument it's best
for him to change the subject.
Right, "Peter"?

I'll take your silence as a 'Yes'.

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
I'd feel equally safe
making that claim too.

Equally? So you don't believe in cows either?!

You believe in spooky supernatural shit but you don't
believe in cows?

The question was addressed to you but it went right over your head.

You brought up the topic of disbelief in cows, not me.

Nah, I brought up your irrational, unprovable claim and how
you'd need a time machine to confirm the claim.
Then you started throwing straw.
Remember?

I drew an analogy between believing prayer caused
magically regrown limbs,
and believing a cow jumped over
the moon.

No, you took an unprovable claim and started throwing
straw because you couldn't prove it...

Post by Peter Pan
You tried to twist that into whether or not
cows exist.

...then you morphed a flying cow into a smelly red herring packed inside
a big bale of straw, and now you're zig-zagging away from the original claim
at warp speed.

Post by Peter Pan
What did you say about throwing straws? I can't hear you.

Yes, you can, even as you run away, "Peter".

Running away by claiming I ran away isn't a very
effective strategy.

Nobody has to disprove something that's absurd on its
face. Once you start invoking miracles and magic, all
rational thought flies out the window. If you want to
assert religious claims about miraculous limb regrowth
and cows jumping over the moon, go for it. Pardon me
while i laugh at you.

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence.

Where is your evidence that it requires 'extraordinary evidenc

Carl Sagan.

So just because Carl Sagan lived you consider that as evidence for something?

Or because Carl Sagan lived *and* said something you agree with, then *that* is evidence for something?

Or because Carl Sagan is God for you then *that* is evidence?

Carl Sagan never presented evidence as to *why* some things are "extraordinary" and some not.

I suppose his evidence was the same as yours, i.e.

Carl Sagan.

Post by Peter Pan
Of course, you beleive nuttier things by faith alone, so
don't let sanity get in your way.

You've got the corner on believing nutty things in this thread, "Peter".

Run with it.

[Peter Pan]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence.

Where is your evidence that it requires 'extraordinary evidenc

Carl Sagan.

So just because Carl Sagan lived you consider that as evidence for something?
Or because Carl Sagan lived *and* said something you agree with, then *that* is evidence for something?
Or because Carl Sagan is God for you then *that* is evidence?
Carl Sagan never presented evidence as to *why* some things are "extraordinary" and some not.
I suppose his evidence was the same as yours, i.e.
Carl Sagan.

Post by Peter Pan
Of course, you beleive nuttier things by faith alone, so
don't let sanity get in your way.

You've got the corner on believing nutty things in this thread, "Peter".
Run with it.

If the bible quoted God as saying regrown limbs are no
big whoop, you'd believe it. Yet we have oodles of
evidence that Sagan existed, and only the fuzziest faith
statements about God.

Anyhow it sounds like you're claiming magically regrown
limbs are a common & plausible occurence, and there's no
reason to think it didn't happen. Is that your POV?

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence.

Where is your evidence that it requires 'extraordinary evidenc

Carl Sagan.

So just because Carl Sagan lived you consider that as evidence for something?
Or because Carl Sagan lived *and* said something you agree with, then *that* is evidence for something?
Or because Carl Sagan is God for you then *that* is evidence?
Carl Sagan never presented evidence as to *why* some things are "extraordinary" and some not.
I suppose his evidence was the same as yours, i.e.
Carl Sagan.

Post by Peter Pan
Of course, you beleive nuttier things by faith alone, so
don't let sanity get in your way.

You've got the corner on believing nutty things in this thread, "Peter".
Run with it.

If the bible quoted God as saying regrown limbs are no
big whoop, you'd believe it. Yet we have oodles of
evidence that Sagan existed

LOL So for you the fact that Carl Sagan merely *existed* implies that anything he said is true and can be used by you and/or any other atheist to "prove" anything you want to "prove".

You should pass this on, at least, to the other atheists in this group. They need to understand that all they should have to do to settle any dispute is to chant the magic name 'Carl Sagan' and the opposition will vanish like smoke into the air.

Thanks for starting off my Monday with a laugh, "Peter"!

[Peter Pan]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan
An amputated limb being regrown would be a supernatural
event, requiring extraordinary evidence.

Where is your evidence that it requires 'extraordinary evidenc

Carl Sagan.

So just because Carl Sagan lived you consider that as evidence for something?
Or because Carl Sagan lived *and* said something you agree with, then *that* is evidence for something?
Or because Carl Sagan is God for you then *that* is evidence?
Carl Sagan never presented evidence as to *why* some things are "extraordinary" and some not.
I suppose his evidence was the same as yours, i.e.
Carl Sagan.

Post by Peter Pan
Of course, you beleive nuttier things by faith alone, so
don't let sanity get in your way.

You've got the corner on believing nutty things in this thread, "Peter".
Run with it.

If the bible quoted God as saying regrown limbs are no
big whoop, you'd believe it. Yet we have oodles of
evidence that Sagan existed

LOL So for you the fact that Carl Sagan merely *existed* implies that anything he said is true and can be used by you and/or any other atheist to "prove" anything you want to "prove".
You should pass this on, at least, to the other atheists in this group. They need to understand that all they should have to do to settle any dispute is to chant the magic name 'Carl Sagan' and the opposition will vanish like smoke into the air.
Thanks for starting off my Monday with a laugh, "Peter"!

Post by Peter Pan
Anyhow it sounds like you're claiming magically regrown
limbs are a common & plausible occurence, and there's no
reason to think it didn't happen. Is that your POV?

A lot of talk, but no reply.

[Andrew]

Post by JWS
Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

And 'god' never will because ----> there is no 'god'.

However the living God, who is the real God, is to not
only restore any missing appendage but to give those of
the resurrection an incorruptible body that will not die.

[Lucifer]

On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:04:57 -0700, "Andrew"

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS
Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

And 'god' never will because ----> there is no 'god'.
However the living God, who is the real God, is to not
only restore any missing appendage but to give those of
the resurrection an incorruptible body that will not die.

What makes you think God will change for the better?

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Mon, 18 May 2020 20:41:05 +1000, Lucifer

Post by Lucifer
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:04:57 -0700, "Andrew"

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS
Yeah, that's the point. How many have been healed?
They ALL say "No, god has not restored my appendage."

And 'god' never will because ----> there is no 'god'.
However the living God, who is the real God, is to not
only restore any missing appendage but to give those of
the resurrection an incorruptible body that will not die.

WHAT FUCKING "LIVING GOD", "REAL GOD", ETC. outside the in-your-face,
mentally ill obsessive's religious delusions?

Post by Lucifer
What makes you think God will change for the better?

Anne 'Drool? Think?

[Andrew]

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.

Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

He healed the crippled, the lame, the blind. And he raised
the dead, as in the case of Lazarus who was dead for four
days.

At the time of the resurrection (or at His coming) his
people are to receive new bodies having the perfection
of eternal youth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but
we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the
dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this
mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible
shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have
put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

~ 1 Corinthians 15:51-55

Those who are accounted worthy of the resurrection will
experience the perfection of eternal youth with enhanced
powers of sight, hearing and perception of truth, wisdom
and love.

[Vincent Maycock]

On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

Post by Andrew
He healed the crippled, the lame, the blind. And he raised
the dead, as in the case of Lazarus who was dead for four
days.

Why didn't anyone besides the characters in your Big Book of Bible
Stories notice that this was happening in the first century CE?

<snip Bible verses>

[LinuxGal]

Post by Vincent Maycock
Why didn't anyone besides the characters in your Big Book of Bible
Stories notice that this was happening in the first century CE?

Matthew noticed that the graves were opened and many of the
dead stumbled out and appeared to many of the living in
Jerusalem, but Mark, Luke, and John didn't see that, despite
it being a miracle far greater than just one crucified
fellow later appearing to five hundred people. Josephus
wrote a whole history of Jerusalem and he didn't even
comment on all the empty graves.

[Andrew]

We want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees *today*!

Perhaps because there is no 'god'.

You should have come to the --> real God.

AND you must also renounce atheism.

"And without faith it is impossible to please
God, because anyone who comes to him must
believe that he exists and that he rewards those
who earnestly seek him." ~ Hebrews 11:6

So do you believe that He exists, or not?

And you must pray in faith.

"But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for
he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven
and tossed by the wind. For let not that man
suppose that he will receive anything from the
Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in
all his ways."

[Vincent Maycock]

On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:58:42 -0700, "Andrew"

Post by Andrew

We want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees *today*!

Perhaps because there is no 'god'.

Do you or do you not believe the guy you call God is a "god" as well
as being named God?

Post by Andrew
You should have come to the --> real God.
AND you must also renounce atheism.
"And without faith it is impossible to please
God, because anyone who comes to him must
believe that he exists and that he rewards those
who earnestly seek him." ~ Hebrews 11:6
So do you believe that He exists, or not?
And you must pray in faith.
"But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for
he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven
and tossed by the wind. For let not that man
suppose that he will receive anything from the
Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in
all his ways."

You're not an atheist. Are you saying you don't have enough faith to
regrow limbs of amputees by praying for them?

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.

I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

[Vincent Maycock]

On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing. Your statement is just above. I suggest you go back and read what you wrote.

But then, you don't really want to know. Based on your past performance, I expect it would seem just like 'word games' to you.

[Cloud Hobbit]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing. Your statement is just above. I suggest you go back and read what you wrote.

It has to do with Jesus that anyone praying for something in his name would have that prayer granted, which if he existed and did in fact say that, was an obvious lie. Or is it your belief that no Christians ever prayed for a regrown limb?

Post by Kurt Nicklas
But then, you don't really want to know. Based on your past performance, I expect it would seem just like 'word games' to you.

[Vincent Maycock]

On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Your statement is just above. I suggest you go back and read what you wrote.
But then, you don't really want to know.

That's just an excuse that you throw out there when you can't back up
your claim to know what the answer to my question is.

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Based on your past performance, I expect it would seem just like 'word games' to you.

No, of course I won't let you slip down any rabbit holes of
philosophical jargon in this discussion.

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

I laugh at atheists like you who deny the existence of God but are
so adamant about what "he should be doing" if he existed.

Haha.

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Your statement is just above. I suggest you go back and read what you wrote.
But then, you don't really want to know.

That's just an excuse that you throw out there when you can't back up
your claim to know what the answer to my question is.

Nah. It comes from experience. I've given you the opportunity to
read about answers but you're not interested.

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Based on your past performance, I expect it would seem just like 'word games' to you.

No, of course I won't let you slip down any rabbit holes of
philosophical jargon in this discussion.

Vince, to have the discussion you *claim* to want *requires* running down such rabbit holes. But you're not willing to do it?

Poor you.

[Ivan The Terrible]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

I laugh at atheists like you who deny the existence of God but are
so adamant about what "he should be doing" if he existed.
Haha.

Idiot Hobbit does it, too. They don't even realize that they are contradicting themselves.

[Andrew]

Post by Ivan The Terrible

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your
view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

I laugh at atheists like you who deny the existence of God but are
so adamant about what "he should be doing" if he existed.
Haha.

Idiot Hobbit does it, too. They don't even realize
that they are contradicting themselves.

Atheists have an obsession with, "God".

They can not stop thinking or talking
about -------> God.

[Oko tillo]

Post by Andrew

Post by Ivan The Terrible

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your
view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

I laugh at atheists like you who deny the existence of God but are
so adamant about what "he should be doing" if he existed.
Haha.

Idiot Hobbit does it, too. They don't even realize
that they are contradicting themselves.

==

Post by Andrew
Atheists have an obsession with, "God".
They can not stop thinking or talking
about -------> God.

Sort of like you cannot stop talking about -------> atheism.

What is your secret fascination with the idea that there is no God?
Maybe it's a thought you can't push away at three a.m. in the morning?


Oko

[Peter Pan]

Post by Andrew

Post by Ivan The Terrible

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your
view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

I laugh at atheists like you who deny the existence of God but are
so adamant about what "he should be doing" if he existed.
Haha.

Idiot Hobbit does it, too. They don't even realize
that they are contradicting themselves.

Atheists have an obsession with, "God".
They can not stop thinking or talking
about -------> God.

Andynoids have an obsession with, "Atheists".

They can not stop thinking or talking
about -------> Atheists.

Maybe it's because *we know*, and Andynoids don't.

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Andrew

Post by Ivan The Terrible

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your
view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

I laugh at atheists like you who deny the existence of God but are
so adamant about what "he should be doing" if he existed.
Haha.

Idiot Hobbit does it, too. They don't even realize
that they are contradicting themselves.

Atheists have an obsession with, "God".
They can not stop thinking or talking
about -------> God.

Andynoids have an obsession with, "Atheists".

Just say your magic words "Carl Sagan" and he'll disappear, "Peter".

<snicker>

----

"Prayer alone is ineffective. Personally I have been performing human sacrifices to propitiate the angry gods."
---"Michael Cole" 5/16/20

"Have a nice day, and feel free to consume as much Zyklon B as you can."
---"Tim"(Beesley) 9/6/19

'Yeah, I'm an atheist! I'd like to gas all theists!!!'
--- "Malte Runz 5/17/19 who thinks it's funny to joke about threatening people he doesn't like.

"Yep, all theists are mass murderers."
---"Peter Pan" 5/9/20

"Go suck on a can of Zyklon B, you ignorant fuck."
---"Tim"(Beesley) 8/13/17

" I'm the same Christian "killer" I've been for years and years"
---"Greywolf" (Lawrence 'Larry" Flowers) 7/16/19

IC | XC
-------
NI | KA

[Tim]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Andrew

Post by Ivan The Terrible

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your
view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

I laugh at atheists like you who deny the existence of God but are
so adamant about what "he should be doing" if he existed.
Haha.

Idiot Hobbit does it, too. They don't even realize
that they are contradicting themselves.

Atheists have an obsession with, "God".
They can not stop thinking or talking
about -------> God.

Andynoids have an obsession with, "Atheists".

Just say your magic words "Carl Sagan" and he'll disappear, "Peter".
<snicker>

Ask kuntles to evidence his god and you'll see him disappear into the horizon.

<snicker>

"I guess proper punctuation isn't of much use in Toronto. Nothing there but tears and queers." May 15, 2019 - Kuntsy applies hate speech to an entire city over a punctuation error.

"Tim the Dim is canadian, Lo Mein." July 8, 2019 - Kuntsy demonstrates his marginal literacy and bigotry toward Chinese people.

"I didn't ask what it is, Lo Mein. Where is your pixie?" July 9, 2019 - Again kuntsy demonstrates his racist attitudes toward Chinese people.

"I can say the same thing about God, Lo Mein." July 10, 2019 - Kuntsy shows how grown up he is by believing in a sky daddy and using racist remarks.

"Playing dumb comes easy for you, Lo Mein." July 10, 2019 - More of kuntsy's racism.

"Really, Lo Mein? You still haven't told me where this pixie you call 'Nature' is located." July 10, 2019 - Kuntsy's moral high ground on display again.

"If you don't like to hear that, either apologize or stop reading my posts. That's simple, even for a canadian." July 15, 2019 - Kuntles shows off his grammar skills and hatred of the North.

"Forget Any Rand. She had no grasp of the real world." July 11, 2019 - Kuntsy demonstrates his grasp on spelling names.

"! The end of yet another leftwing dream" July 18, 2019 - Kuntsy thinks that subject titles should start with an exclamation mark and don't need periods!

"I looked high and low for you the same warning when the epithet belowed appeared on a.a." - Kuntsy perfects the bastardization of the English language, LOL!

"Hadn't you heard? Timmykins blames his empty head on the nature of the Universe so, of course, it's not his fault. After all, he didn't actually ask to born!" - Kuntsy emptied his head and poured religion in, LOL!

"No one who knows the history of the 20th century can have such a polyanna view of human 'empathy'." Oct, 28, 2019 - Kuntsy consults his "Any Rand" name dictionary, LOL!

"I don't know who you're talking abo" Nov 10, 2019 - Kuntsy proves, once again, that he doesn't know what he's talking about, LOL!

"I slogged all the way through the Quran. I've been in 4 or 5 mosques. Pass one almost ever day but I'm not convinced to convert, no." Nov 10, 2019. For kuntles The days last for "ever" in Plovdiv, LOL!

"Timmee just can't untangle those fingers sometimes!" Nov 21, 2019 - Kuntsy just can't figure out how to use commas, LOL!

"You can find an atheist who will tell you what you want to hear and you'll buy his books. Richard Dawson et al thank you for your support." - Kuntsy's favorite game show atheist, LOL!

"Like little children, they expect to have their cookies but not be punished for stealing them." May 21, 2020 - Kuntles shows how children have better grammar than he does, LOL!

[Tim]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

I laugh at atheists like you who deny the existence of God but are
so adamant about what "he should be doing" if he existed.
Haha.

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Your statement is just above. I suggest you go back and read what you wrote.
But then, you don't really want to know.

That's just an excuse that you throw out there when you can't back up
your claim to know what the answer to my question is.

Nah. It comes from experience. I've given you the opportunity to
read about answers but you're not interested.

You've been given plenty of opportunities to evidence your god, but like commas, you keep missing them.

Run kuntsy run.

"I guess proper punctuation isn't of much use in Toronto. Nothing there but tears and queers." May 15, 2019 - Kuntsy applies hate speech to an entire city over a punctuation error.

"Tim the Dim is canadian, Lo Mein." July 8, 2019 - Kuntsy demonstrates his marginal literacy and bigotry toward Chinese people.

"I didn't ask what it is, Lo Mein. Where is your pixie?" July 9, 2019 - Again kuntsy demonstrates his racist attitudes toward Chinese people.

"I can say the same thing about God, Lo Mein." July 10, 2019 - Kuntsy shows how grown up he is by believing in a sky daddy and using racist remarks.

"Playing dumb comes easy for you, Lo Mein." July 10, 2019 - More of kuntsy's racism.

"Really, Lo Mein? You still haven't told me where this pixie you call 'Nature' is located." July 10, 2019 - Kuntsy's moral high ground on display again.

"If you don't like to hear that, either apologize or stop reading my posts. That's simple, even for a canadian." July 15, 2019 - Kuntles shows off his grammar skills and hatred of the North.

"Forget Any Rand. She had no grasp of the real world." July 11, 2019 - Kuntsy demonstrates his grasp on spelling names.

"! The end of yet another leftwing dream" July 18, 2019 - Kuntsy thinks that subject titles should start with an exclamation mark and don't need periods!

"I looked high and low for you the same warning when the epithet belowed appeared on a.a." - Kuntsy perfects the bastardization of the English language, LOL!

"Hadn't you heard? Timmykins blames his empty head on the nature of the Universe so, of course, it's not his fault. After all, he didn't actually ask to born!" - Kuntsy emptied his head and poured religion in, LOL!

"No one who knows the history of the 20th century can have such a polyanna view of human 'empathy'." Oct, 28, 2019 - Kuntsy consults his "Any Rand" name dictionary, LOL!

"I don't know who you're talking abo" Nov 10, 2019 - Kuntsy proves, once again, that he doesn't know what he's talking about, LOL!

"I slogged all the way through the Quran. I've been in 4 or 5 mosques. Pass one almost ever day but I'm not convinced to convert, no." Nov 10, 2019. For kuntles The days last for "ever" in Plovdiv, LOL!

"Timmee just can't untangle those fingers sometimes!" Nov 21, 2019 - Kuntsy just can't figure out how to use commas, LOL!

"You can find an atheist who will tell you what you want to hear and you'll buy his books. Richard Dawson et al thank you for your support." - Kuntsy's favorite game show atheist, LOL!

"Like little children, they expect to have their cookies but not be punished for stealing them." May 21, 2020 - Kuntles shows how children have better grammar than he does, LOL!

[Andrew]

Post by Kurt Nicklas
I laugh at atheists like you who deny the existence of God but
are so adamant about what "he should be doing" if he existed.
Haha.

They are so funny. But the truth is, *they know*!

[Vincent Maycock]

On Sun, 17 May 2020 20:44:06 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

I laugh at atheists like you who deny the existence of God but are
so adamant about what "he should be doing" if he existed.
Haha.

How about: God is not doing what he would be doing if he existed;
therefore, he doesn't exist!

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Your statement is just above. I suggest you go back and read what you wrote.
But then, you don't really want to know.

That's just an excuse that you throw out there when you can't back up
your claim to know what the answer to my question is.

Nah. It comes from experience. I've given you the opportunity to
read about answers but you're not interested.

LOL! I bet you thought I'd never heard of theodicy before. As I said,
I've dealt with all of what you referenced before.

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Based on your past performance, I expect it would seem just like 'word games' to you.

No, of course I won't let you slip down any rabbit holes of
philosophical jargon in this discussion.

Vince, to have the discussion you *claim* to want *requires* running down such rabbit holes. But you're not willing to do it?
Poor you.

Well, head for your rabbit hole. It's not like it's difficult to
follow or anything; it's just kind of an affected way of talking.

[aaa]

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Your statement is just above. I suggest you go back and read what you wrote.
But then, you don't really want to know.

That's just an excuse that you throw out there when you can't back up
your claim to know what the answer to my question is.

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Based on your past performance, I expect it would seem just like 'word games' to you.

No, of course I won't let you slip down any rabbit holes of
philosophical jargon in this discussion.

You don't ask the spiritual God for physical reward. You pray to the
spiritual God for the spiritual reward instead, and the physical reward
will be given to you without you asking. There is a clear difference
between the spiritual reality and the physical illusion. When you focus
on the physical illusion, you will only deceive yourself.
--
God's spiritual evidence:

Truth, love, wisdom, compassion, knowledge, consciousness, intelligence,
happiness, faith, courage, justice, peace, freedom, and life itself.

God's spiritual evidence is evident in everyone.
Find it and treasure it because it's the covenant of God.
It's the reason why we are given this life on earth.
It's the foundation why we can have meaning in life.

Let's all honor our personal spiritual evidence of God for the sake of
Christ!

[Vincent Maycock]

Post by aaa

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Your statement is just above. I suggest you go back and read what you wrote.
But then, you don't really want to know.

That's just an excuse that you throw out there when you can't back up
your claim to know what the answer to my question is.

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Based on your past performance, I expect it would seem just like 'word games' to you.

No, of course I won't let you slip down any rabbit holes of
philosophical jargon in this discussion.

You don't ask the spiritual God for physical reward. You pray to the
spiritual God for the spiritual reward instead, and the physical reward
will be given to you without you asking. There is a clear difference
between the spiritual reality and the physical illusion. When you focus
on the physical illusion, you will only deceive yourself.

So if you pray for a"spiritual reward," you're going to stop innocent
children from suffering in the world as part of the physical reward?
If so, why are they still suffering?

And is your computer part of the "physical illusion"?

[aaa]

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by aaa

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 11:35:44 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by Vincent Maycock
On Sun, 17 May 2020 10:06:21 -0700, "Andrew"
[...]

Post by Andrew

Post by JWS

Post by jdyoung

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one
single amputee in all of human history.
Brenda Nelson, A.A. #34

How many amputees have you posed that question to?

Why would you expect an amputee to have the answer?
If god doesn't answer an amputee's prayer, is he
required give the reason why? I happen to know two
amputees. They don't know why.
But we don't have to ask any amputee. How many reports
of restored limbs (god induced or otherwise) are there?

Would it be logical to conclude that if amputees exist..that
means that God does not? No, that would be the reasoning
of a fool.
Now when Jesus walked among us, He healed the people.

No one cares about the stories in your Book of Myths and Legends. We
want to know why your god isn't healing the myriads of amputees
*today*!

No, Vincent, actually you don't.
I'm right, aren't I? Be honest.

No, you're wrong. If there's evidence for mass regeneration of
amputated limbs, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Of course your statement was that you want to know why, in your view, God isn't doing what you think he should be doing.

Or what any sane person would think he should be doing, if they
weren't blinded by religious bias.

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Your statement is just above. I suggest you go back and read what you wrote.
But then, you don't really want to know.

That's just an excuse that you throw out there when you can't back up
your claim to know what the answer to my question is.

Post by Kurt Nicklas
Based on your past performance, I expect it would seem just like 'word games' to you.

No, of course I won't let you slip down any rabbit holes of
philosophical jargon in this discussion.

You don't ask the spiritual God for physical reward. You pray to the
spiritual God for the spiritual reward instead, and the physical reward
will be given to you without you asking. There is a clear difference
between the spiritual reality and the physical illusion. When you focus
on the physical illusion, you will only deceive yourself.

So if you pray for a"spiritual reward," you're going to stop innocent
children from suffering in the world as part of the physical reward?

Suffering is a spiritual concept with physical consequence. The
spiritual and physical can't be separated.

Post by Vincent Maycock
If so, why are they still suffering?

Because the cause of human suffering, which is sin, has not been eliminated.

Post by Vincent Maycock
And is your computer part of the "physical illusion"?

That reflects the spiritual reality of God, yes.
--
God's spiritual evidence:

Truth, love, wisdom, compassion, knowledge, consciousness, intelligence,
happiness, faith, courage, justice, peace, freedom, and life itself.

God's spiritual evidence is evident in everyone.
Find it and treasure it because it's the covenant of God.
It's the reason why we are given this life on earth.
It's the foundation why we can have meaning in life.

Let's all honor our personal spiritual evidence of God for the sake of
Christ!

[Vincent Maycock]

[...]

Post by aaa

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by aaa
You don't ask the spiritual God for physical reward. You pray to the
spiritual God for the spiritual reward instead, and the physical reward
will be given to you without you asking. There is a clear difference
between the spiritual reality and the physical illusion. When you focus
on the physical illusion, you will only deceive yourself.

So if you pray for a"spiritual reward," you're going to stop innocent
children from suffering in the world as part of the physical reward?

Suffering is a spiritual concept with physical consequence. The
spiritual and physical can't be separated.

Why would that be?

Post by aaa

Post by Vincent Maycock
If so, why are they still suffering?

Because the cause of human suffering, which is sin, has not been eliminated.

Why hasn't it been?

Post by aaa

Post by Vincent Maycock
And is your computer part of the "physical illusion"?

That reflects the spiritual reality of God, yes.

Is there anything that isn't such a reflection?

[Peter Pan]

Post by Andrew
At the time of the resurrection (or at His coming) his
people are to receive new bodies having the perfection
of eternal youth.

Woohoo! Does that mean all women will get the firm,
perky tits they always wanted, instead of those flat AA's
and pendulous DD's they so hated in life?

Will all chicks get the same perfect butts, or will there
be assorted flavors of perfection?

Maybe this whole afterlife notion could bear some
re-examination.

[Andrew]

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Andrew
At the time of the resurrection (or at His coming) his
people are to receive new bodies having the perfection
of eternal youth.

Woohoo! Does that mean all women will get the firm,
perky tits they always wanted, instead of those flat AA's
and pendulous DD's they so hated in life?
Will all chicks get the same perfect butts, or will there
be assorted flavors of perfection?
Maybe this whole afterlife notion could bear some
re-examination.

"Ye are yet carnal."

~ 1 Cor 3:3

[Peter Pan]

Post by Andrew

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Andrew
At the time of the resurrection (or at His coming) his
people are to receive new bodies having the perfection
of eternal youth.

Woohoo! Does that mean all women will get the firm,
perky tits they always wanted, instead of those flat AA's
and pendulous DD's they so hated in life?
Will all chicks get the same perfect butts, or will there
be assorted flavors of perfection?
Maybe this whole afterlife notion could bear some
re-examination.

"Ye are yet carnal."
~ 1 Cor 3:3

Thanks. Your point being... ?

[Andrew]

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Andrew

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Andrew
At the time of the resurrection (or at His coming) his
people are to receive new bodies having the perfection
of eternal youth.

Woohoo! Does that mean all women will get the firm,
perky tits they always wanted, instead of those flat AA's
and pendulous DD's they so hated in life?
Will all chicks get the same perfect butts, or will there
be assorted flavors of perfection?
Maybe this whole afterlife notion could bear some
re-examination.

"Ye are yet carnal."
~ 1 Cor 3:3

Thanks. Your point being... ?

The point is that, "the carnal mind is enmity against God:
for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can
be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Thus it is unlikely for such to be with Him in the future
realm.

Furthermore Jesus told us that the bodies of those who
are resurrected are asexual - no more sex.

"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are
given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in
heaven." ~ Matthew 22:30

And contrary to what you may have heard,
angels do not have the capacity to have sex.

[Oko tillo]

Post by Andrew

Post by Peter Pan

Post by Andrew
At the time of the resurrection (or at His coming) his
people are to receive new bodies having the perfection
of eternal youth.

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Peter Pan
Woohoo! Does that mean all women will get the firm,
perky tits they always wanted, instead of those flat AA's
and pendulous DD's they so hated in life?
Will all chicks get the same perfect butts, or will there
be assorted flavors of perfection?
Maybe this whole afterlife notion could bear some
re-examination.

"Ye are yet carnal."
~ 1 Cor 3:3

Quote mine alert.

Actual context:

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal,
even as unto babes in Christ.

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it,
neither yet now are ye able.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife,
and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Not about sex at all.


Oko

[Cloud Hobbit]

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

As if any regrown limbs would not be international news.

Youse are a meathead.
Dead from the neck up.
Archie Bunker.

[Andrew]

Post by Cloud Hobbit

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

As if any regrown limbs would not be international news.

You would believe and worship one that had power to do
this. But the Bible tells us that the Devil has such miracle
working powers, and is going to deceive the whole world.

(Revelation 13)

Therefore you testify that you would readily fall down and
worship the Devil when he performs his tricks in your sight.

But you see, his destiny is going to be ---> the lake of fire.

And if you follow him now, you will also share his destiny.

[Oko tillo]

Post by Andrew

Post by Cloud Hobbit

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Cloud Hobbit
As if any regrown limbs would not be international news.

You would believe and worship one that had power to do
this. But the Bible tells us that the Devil has such miracle
working powers, and is going to deceive the whole world.
(Revelation 13)

Cop out.

Jesus didn't cop out, did he?

"Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe".

And then proceeded to perform one.

And of course Jesus promised you:

"And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do,
that the Father may be glorified in the Son".

Know what? He didn't add a codicil "Hey wait, on second thought no, strike that.
I'd like to grant you that, but look: the Devil could do it too, and I don't want
anyone getting the two of Us confused, know what I'm saying?"

And of course what you don't quote from the Revelation is that all the
apocalyptic disasters in Revelation 6 through 12 are going to happen
before your horn headed dragon voiced beastie gets his powers to deceive.

Haven't happened yet, have they?

Me, I haven't noticed a third of the sea turning to blood or a third of the
stars falling out of the sky or any of the dozens of other catastrophic events
that we're told are going to come before that.

Have you?

Hell, even the Hilina Slump hasn't slumped, let alone any "a great mountain 'burning with fire”
falling into the sea and sinking a third of all the world's ships.

Like I said: cop out.


Oko

Post by Andrew
Therefore you testify that you would readily fall down and
worship the Devil when he performs his tricks in your sight.
But you see, his destiny is going to be ---> the lake of fire.
And if you follow him now, you will also share his destiny.

[Lucifer]

On Mon, 18 May 2020 01:41:03 -0700 (PDT), Oko tillo

Post by Oko tillo

Post by Andrew

Post by Cloud Hobbit

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

==

Post by Andrew

Post by Cloud Hobbit
As if any regrown limbs would not be international news.

You would believe and worship one that had power to do
this. But the Bible tells us that the Devil has such miracle
working powers, and is going to deceive the whole world.
(Revelation 13)

Cop out.
Jesus didn't cop out, did he?
"Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe".
And then proceeded to perform one.
"And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do,
that the Father may be glorified in the Son".
Know what? He didn't add a codicil "Hey wait, on second thought no, strike that.
I'd like to grant you that, but look: the Devil could do it too, and I don't want
anyone getting the two of Us confused, know what I'm saying?"
And of course what you don't quote from the Revelation is that all the
apocalyptic disasters in Revelation 6 through 12 are going to happen
before your horn headed dragon voiced beastie gets his powers to deceive.
Haven't happened yet, have they?
Me, I haven't noticed a third of the sea turning to blood

When it does happen it will be O multiplication.

Post by Oko tillo
or a third of the
stars falling out of the sky or any of the dozens of other catastrophic events
that we're told are going to come before that.
Have you?
Hell, even the Hilina Slump hasn't slumped, let alone any "a great mountain 'burning with fire”
falling into the sea and sinking a third of all the world's ships.

That all happened in another dimension.

Post by Oko tillo
Like I said: cop out.
Oko

Post by Andrew
Therefore you testify that you would readily fall down and
worship the Devil when he performs his tricks in your sight.
But you see, his destiny is going to be ---> the lake of fire.
And if you follow him now, you will also share his destiny.

[Lucifer]

On Mon, 18 May 2020 00:48:19 -0700, "Andrew"

Post by Andrew

Post by Cloud Hobbit

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

As if any regrown limbs would not be international news.

You would believe and worship one that had power to do
this.

Nothing is worthy of worship.

Post by Andrew
But the Bible tells us that the Devil has such miracle
working powers, and is going to deceive the whole world.

God is the deceiver. The devil is on our side.

Post by Andrew
Therefore you testify that you would readily fall down and
worship the Devil when he performs his tricks in your sight.

We don't worship.

Post by Andrew
But you see, his destiny is going to be ---> the lake of fire.

For helping us?

Post by Andrew
And if you follow him now, you will also share his destiny.

You have a seriously warped personality.

[jdyoung]

On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:19:53 -0700 (PDT), Asshole Cloud Hobbit

Post by Cloud Hobbit

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

As if any regrown limbs would not be international news.

As usual, reading comprehension is not your strong suit. My question
to Brenda was how many amputees ( that she implied prayed but did not
get the desired result ), did she ask? I'm willing to bet she didn't
ask a single one and just assumed.

J Young
***@live.com

"You can't cheat an honest man"
-- W.C. Fields

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by jdyoung
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:19:53 -0700 (PDT), Asshole Cloud Hobbit

Post by Cloud Hobbit

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

As if any regrown limbs would not be international news.

As usual, reading comprehension is not your strong suit. My question
to Brenda was how many amputees ( that she implied prayed but did not
get the desired result ), did she ask? I'm willing to bet she didn't
ask a single one and just assumed.

Of course not. The dodge goes something like this: If I'm an atheist I get to claim anything I want as the "default position" as long as I don't actually do any research to confirm my claim.

By and large, atheists, at least in this group, are intellectual cowards and lazy as well.

Post by jdyoung
J Young
"You can't cheat an honest man"
-- W.C. Fields

[Tim]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by jdyoung
On Sun, 17 May 2020 12:19:53 -0700 (PDT), Asshole Cloud Hobbit

Post by Cloud Hobbit

Post by jdyoung
How many amputees have you posed that question to?

As if any regrown limbs would not be international news.

As usual, reading comprehension is not your strong suit. My question
to Brenda was how many amputees ( that she implied prayed but did not
get the desired result ), did she ask? I'm willing to bet she didn't
ask a single one and just assumed.

Of course not. The dodge goes something like this: If I'm an atheist I get to claim anything I want as the "default position" as long as I don't actually do any research to confirm my claim.
By and large, atheists, at least in this group, are intellectual cowards and lazy as well.

Says kuntsy, the guy who runs away every time he has an opportunity to evidence his god. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Run kuntsy run.

"I guess proper punctuation isn't of much use in Toronto. Nothing there but tears and queers." May 15, 2019 - Kuntsy applies hate speech to an entire city over a punctuation error.

"Tim the Dim is canadian, Lo Mein." July 8, 2019 - Kuntsy demonstrates his marginal literacy and bigotry toward Chinese people.

"I didn't ask what it is, Lo Mein. Where is your pixie?" July 9, 2019 - Again kuntsy demonstrates his racist attitudes toward Chinese people.

"I can say the same thing about God, Lo Mein." July 10, 2019 - Kuntsy shows how grown up he is by believing in a sky daddy and using racist remarks.

"Playing dumb comes easy for you, Lo Mein." July 10, 2019 - More of kuntsy's racism.

"Really, Lo Mein? You still haven't told me where this pixie you call 'Nature' is located." July 10, 2019 - Kuntsy's moral high ground on display again.

"If you don't like to hear that, either apologize or stop reading my posts. That's simple, even for a canadian." July 15, 2019 - Kuntles shows off his grammar skills and hatred of the North.

"Forget Any Rand. She had no grasp of the real world." July 11, 2019 - Kuntsy demonstrates his grasp on spelling names.

"! The end of yet another leftwing dream" July 18, 2019 - Kuntsy thinks that subject titles should start with an exclamation mark and don't need periods!

"I looked high and low for you the same warning when the epithet belowed appeared on a.a." - Kuntsy perfects the bastardization of the English language, LOL!

"Hadn't you heard? Timmykins blames his empty head on the nature of the Universe so, of course, it's not his fault. After all, he didn't actually ask to born!" - Kuntsy emptied his head and poured religion in, LOL!

"No one who knows the history of the 20th century can have such a polyanna view of human 'empathy'." Oct, 28, 2019 - Kuntsy consults his "Any Rand" name dictionary, LOL!

"I don't know who you're talking abo" Nov 10, 2019 - Kuntsy proves, once again, that he doesn't know what he's talking about, LOL!

"I slogged all the way through the Quran. I've been in 4 or 5 mosques. Pass one almost ever day but I'm not convinced to convert, no." Nov 10, 2019. For kuntles The days last for "ever" in Plovdiv, LOL!

"Timmee just can't untangle those fingers sometimes!" Nov 21, 2019 - Kuntsy just can't figure out how to use commas, LOL!

"You can find an atheist who will tell you what you want to hear and you'll buy his books. Richard Dawson et al thank you for your support." - Kuntsy's favorite game show atheist, LOL!

"Like little children, they expect to have their cookies but not be punished for stealing them." May 21, 2020 - Kuntles shows how children have better grammar than he does, LOL!

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by SkyEyes

Post by Vincent Maycock

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/

One wonders why prayer would have such a slight effect if an
omnipotent God were behind it, or why God would cruelly neglect people
who haven't been prayed for.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-power-of-faith-and-prayer/
"These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of
individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory
prayer,the majority do not and the evidence does not support a
recommendation either in favor or against the use of intercessory
prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention
should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available
for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care."

Post by jdyoung
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?

I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.

Oh, and you've polled them all, right?

[LinuxGal]

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.

Oh, and you've polled them all, right?

She has the same standing to state that a miraculous
re-attachment of an amputated limb has never been
demonstrated that she does to state a small teapot has not
been demonstrated to exist between the orbits of Earth and
Mars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by LinuxGal

Post by Kurt Nicklas

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has never healed one single amputee in all of human history.

Oh, and you've polled them all, right?

She has the same standing to state that a miraculous
re-attachment of an amputated limb has never been
demonstrated that she does to state a small teapot has not
been demonstrated to exist between the orbits of Earth and
Mars.

Baloney. No one has ever seriously proposed that such a teapot has ever been seen nor have any such pots been observed anywhere in the solar system.

Once again, her claim is just as irrational as to claim 'no evidence of God exists'.
It can be claimed that she, or you, have never seen such evidence but not that such evidence exists.

Further, if you want to validate your 'claim' that a teapot exists orbiting inside the orbit of Mars, you have merely to go there and search. It's probably possible.
On the other hand, validating her 'claim' that something - anything - has 'never happened in all of human history' plainly *cannot* be validated.

Unless you atheists have a time machine.

[LinuxGal]

On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 8:52:07 PM UTC+3, LinuxGal

Post by LinuxGal

On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 3:08:01 PM UTC+3, SkyEyes

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has
never healed one single amputee in all of human
history.

Oh, and you've polled them all, right?

She has the same standing to state that a miraculous
re-attachment of an amputated limb has never been
demonstrated that she does to state a small teapot has
not been demonstrated to exist between the orbits of
Earth and Mars.

Baloney. No one has ever seriously proposed that such a
teapot has ever been seen nor have any such pots been
observed anywhere in the solar system.

Indeed, since no telescope is sufficiently powerful to scan
all of interplanetary space between Earth and Mars and rule
out the existence of a teapot. Yet Christians daily place a
similar burden of proof on atheists to demonstrate
supernatural entities do not exist anywhere in the universe,
entities which have far less tangibility than a teapot,
perhaps even zero tangibility.

[Kurt Nicklas]

Post by LinuxGal

On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 8:52:07 PM UTC+3, LinuxGal

Post by LinuxGal

On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 3:08:01 PM UTC+3, SkyEyes

Post by SkyEyes
I'm still wondering why (if prayer works), god has
never healed one single amputee in all of human
history.

Oh, and you've polled them all, right?

She has the same standing to state that a miraculous
re-attachment of an amputated limb has never been
demonstrated that she does to state a small teapot has
not been demonstrated to exist between the orbits of
Earth and Mars.

Baloney. No one has ever seriously proposed that such a
teapot has ever been seen nor have any such pots been
observed anywhere in the solar system.

Indeed, since no telescope is sufficiently powerful to scan
all of interplanetary space between Earth and Mars and rule
out the existence of a teapot. Yet Christians daily place a
similar burden of proof on atheists to demonstrate
supernatural entities do not exist anywhere in the universe,
entities which have far less tangibility than a teapot,
perhaps even zero tangibility.

The original poster made a ridiculous yet *positive* claim that would have required going back into the past in order to prove. I wasn't asking
her to prove God doesn't exist because she didn't directly make that claim.

[k***@gmail.com]

Post by jdyoung
https://www.catholicleague.org/the-power-of-prayer/
The coronavirus pandemic led to thousands of deaths, overrun
mortuaries, untold suffering, burnt-out hospital staff, economic
hardship, and psychological distress. It also gave millions a time to
renew their faith, or come back to it. But is prayer a reliable tonic?
Yes. Is there scientific data to back it up? Yes.
One leading researcher, Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School,
holds that prayer and general stress management can reduce doctor
visits by up to 50 percent. Most patients would agree. In a national
survey, it was revealed that 35 percent of respondents used prayer for
health concerns; 75 percent of these prayed for wellness, and 22
percent prayed for specific medical conditions. Perhaps most
important, 69 percent of those who prayed for specific medical
conditions found prayer very helpful. With data like this, it makes
moot the convictions of skeptics: what matters is that “Hail Marys”
work.
Many of the skeptics, of course, eschew any evidence that does not
comport with their view of reality. Dr. Jeff Levin, an epidemiologist
and former medical school professor, contends that the “resistance and
hostility that some scientists and physicians show to this topic stem,
I believe, from an unwillingness to consider explanations that
undermine a strictly materialistic worldview.”
Perhaps the most controversial aspect of prayer and better well-being
is whether praying for others actually has beneficial consequences. As
it turns out, what is called “absent prayer,” or “intercessory
prayer,” does yield positive outcomes. When people are asked to pray
for a specific person, whom they do not know, but who is suffering
from an illness, and the recipient of prayer has no knowledge that
this is happening, most of these “double blind” studies show that
patients who are prayed for improve better than those patients with
the same condition but who did not have anyone pray for them.
One of the earliest and most prominent studies ever done on the health
effects of intercessory prayer was conducted by Dr. Randolph C. Byrd
in 1988. In a study of 393 people admitted to the coronary care unit
at San Francisco General Hospital, the patients were divided into two
groups.
Half the group was selected for intercessory prayer by devout
Christians, and the other half received no such treatment; the
patients were randomly assigned and neither the patients nor the
health staff had a clue which was the experiential group and which was
the control group. The former fared significantly better than the
latter.
Two explanations are possible: praying for others works, or the
results were due to chance. However, the odds that this was due to
chance were one in 10,000. Those who did the praying were all devout
Catholics and Protestants. Dr. Byrd concluded that these findings
“suggest intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God had a
beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU [coronary
care unit].”
In a similar study done in 1999 of nearly 1,000 patients in the CCU at
St. Luke’s Hospital in Kansas City, it was found that those who were
unwittingly prayed for fared better than those who got conventional
care alone. In 1998, similar conclusions were reached with AIDS
those who were prayed for did better than their non-prayed for
counterparts.
Numerous scientific studies have found that prayer lowers depression
and suicide rates. It even lowers blood pressure.
There was a big study published in 2006 of 1,800 patients that did not
confirm what these other studies found. It was led by Dr. Benson so it
two were prayed for and the third was not. Half the patients were told
they were being prayed for, and half were told they might receive
prayers. This time the researchers found no difference between the
various groups.
In 2007, however, a new study published by a professor from Arizona
State University found the prayer had positive effects. It is an
important study because it was a comprehensive analysis of 17 major
studies on the effects of intercessory prayer.
The author, David R. Hodge, explained its significance. “This study
enables us to look at the big picture. When the effects of prayer are
averaged across all 17 studies, controlling for differences in sample
size, a net positive effect for the prayer group is produced.”
In other words, most studies done on the efficacy of intercessory
prayer show the power of prayer—it works.
We should expect scientists to rigorously assess the data from all
studies, regardless of what the subject is. That is their job. But we
should also expect them to be open-minded enough to say that some
findings cannot be easily explained. With a little prayer, maybe they
can figure it out.
J Young

On the other hand modern medicine is materialistic by nature,
It seeks for a physical causes for illness, and finds bacteria,
viruses, poisons, environmental pollution of air, water and soil,
and other physical causes.
Even Mental illness which are manifested the at the mental
level are rooted into the physical realm, or are treated with the help of
chemical medicines. Isn't it better than to attribute illness to sin? to gods
anger that needs to be appeased by a sacrifice?

People pray for themselves or for their loved ones. If this
encourages someone during difficult time, it is OK.
Wishing good for someone else is always a good practice, anyway,
it can make you feel better yourself. But you do not need to pray for that.

KRYOEL

[Harry Krishna]

On Fri, 15 May 2020 22:50:12 -0400, jdyoung <***@ymail.com>
wrote:

Wow! You managed to get through an entire post without falling into a
rant about homosexuality! It was no less idiotic than your usual
tripe, but hey, baby steps...