A placebo post

Post by occam
The question of placebos has been bouncing around my brain during the
- objects as placebos (pills, talisman)
- ideas as placebos (a deity, the soul, the afterlife...)
- words as placebos (a mantra, a poem, inspirational quotes...)
Then, I stumbled across this cartoon. It is an interesting idea.
https://dilbert.com/strip/2010-08-10
Is the root of placebo the same as 'to placate'?

Sort of. "I will please".

I didn't realise it was from the Vespers for the Office of the Dead
(quoting a Psalm): "I will please the Lord in the land of the living".

https://www.etymonline.com/word/placebo

Post by occam
I propose the verb 'to placebo' as an act deliberately carried out in
order to conjure up a positive effect out of thin air.

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2020-01-02 14:40:09 UTC

Sort of. "I will please".
I didn't realise it was from the Vespers for the Office of the Dead
(quoting a Psalm): "I will please the Lord in the land of the living".
https://www.etymonline.com/word/placebo

Post by occam
I propose the verb 'to placebo' as an act deliberately carried out in
order to conjure up a positive effect out of thin air.

I question whether the medical use came from Vespers for the Office of
the Dead. In the late-18th/early-19th centuries educated people knew
Latin and Latin was, and is, widely used in medical and other scientific
terminology. The medical sense is certainly some centuries later than
the religious but I'd etill guess that the medical usage came directly
from Latin.

This has a long list of "medical roots, suffixes and prefixes".
The vast majority are from Latin and Greek.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_roots,_suffixes_and_prefixes

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-02 14:56:51 UTC

Sort of. "I will please".
I didn't realise it was from the Vespers for the Office of the Dead
(quoting a Psalm): "I will please the Lord in the land of the living".
https://www.etymonline.com/word/placebo

Post by occam
I propose the verb 'to placebo' as an act deliberately carried out in
order to conjure up a positive effect out of thin air.

But why would someone have hit on the word "I shall please" for a phony
pill? The first person to use the term probably explained why they chose
it, and a history of medicine would be where to look.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
This has a long list of "medical roots, suffixes and prefixes".
The vast majority are from Latin and Greek.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_roots,_suffixes_and_prefixes

CDB

2020-01-02 16:05:44 UTC

Post by occam
The question of placebos has been bouncing around my brain during
- objects as placebos (pills, talisman) - ideas as placebos (a
deity, the soul, the afterlife...) - words as placebos (a mantra,
a poem, inspirational quotes...)
Then, I stumbled across this cartoon. It is an interesting idea.
https://dilbert.com/strip/2010-08-10
Is the root of placebo the same as 'to placate'?

Sort of. "I will please".
I didn't realise it was from the Vespers for the Office of the
Dead (quoting a Psalm): "I will please the Lord in the land of the
living".
https://www.etymonline.com/word/placebo

Post by occam
I propose the verb 'to placebo' as an act deliberately carried
out in order to conjure up a positive effect out of thin air.

I agree that it came from a Latin source. I thought the rite (or the
Psalm it quotes) deserved consideration for "in the land of the living",
but mostly because the word is the
first-person-singular-present-indicative form of the verb, the first
word in the Bible verse.

It seems to me that, if the coiners had been working from the idea only,
they would have used a more noun-like form, perhaps "placitum" or
placitor". Or something snazzier, of course.

THe Latin verse, Ps 114 v 9, is "Placebo Domino in regione vivorum" in
the Vulgate. It does not appear in the KJV, which stops at verse 8. I
didn't check farther back; sorry.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
This has a long list of "medical roots, suffixes and prefixes". The
vast majority are from Latin and Greek.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_roots,_suffixes_and_prefixes

pensive hamster

2020-01-02 16:49:04 UTC

Sort of. "I will please".
I didn't realise it was from the Vespers for the Office of the
Dead (quoting a Psalm): "I will please the Lord in the land of the
living".
https://www.etymonline.com/word/placebo

Post by occam
I propose the verb 'to placebo' as an act deliberately carried
out in order to conjure up a positive effect out of thin air.

I agree that it came from a Latin source. I thought the rite (or the
Psalm it quotes) deserved consideration for "in the land of the living",
but mostly because the word is the
first-person-singular-present-indicative form of the verb, the first
word in the Bible verse.
It seems to me that, if the coiners had been working from the idea only,
they would have used a more noun-like form, perhaps "placitum" or
placitor". Or something snazzier, of course.
THe Latin verse, Ps 114 v 9, is "Placebo Domino in regione vivorum" in
the Vulgate. It does not appear in the KJV, which stops at verse 8. I
didn't check farther back; sorry.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
This has a long list of "medical roots, suffixes and prefixes". The
vast majority are from Latin and Greek.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_roots,_suffixes_and_prefixes

Wikipedia says:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo#Etymology

'Placebo is Latin for I shall be pleasing. It was used as a name for
the Vespers in the Office of the Dead, taken from a phrase used
in it, a quote from the Vulgate's Psalm 114:9.[17][18] From that, a
singer of placebo became associated with someone who falsely
claimed a connection to the deceased to get a share of the funeral
meal, and hence a flatterer, and so a deceptive act to please.[19]'

Note [19] goes to
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01564309
Psychiatric Quarterly December 1968, Volume 42, Issue 4, pp 653–695
Semantics of the placebo

CDB

2020-01-03 12:07:16 UTC

Post by CDB
I agree that it came from a Latin source. I thought the rite (or
the Psalm it quotes) deserved consideration for "in the land of the
living", but mostly because the word is the
first-person-singular-present

Or "future" as it is sometimes called.

Nothing to do with "futuere". Move along.

Post by CDB
-indicative form of the verb, the first word in the Bible verse.

occam

2020-01-03 18:15:10 UTC

Post by CDB
THe Latin verse, Ps 114 v 9, is "Placebo Domino in regione vivorum" in
the Vulgate. It does not appear in the KJV, which stops at verse 8. I
didn't check farther back; sorry.

[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did they
just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2020-01-03 18:29:01 UTC

Post by CDB
THe Latin verse, Ps 114 v 9, is "Placebo Domino in regione vivorum" in
the Vulgate. It does not appear in the KJV, which stops at verse 8. I
didn't check farther back; sorry.

[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did they
just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

Apparently his father was also called Plácido Domingo. Presumably the
famous one could go by José if he wanted, as that is his first name.

--
athel

RH Draney

2020-01-04 06:25:34 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did they
just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

(Jury's still out on whether Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt considered the
possibility of spoonerism when they named their daughter Shiloh Pitt)....r

b***@shaw.ca

2020-01-04 21:17:11 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did they
just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....
(Jury's still out on whether Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt considered the
possibility of spoonerism when they named their daughter Shiloh Pitt)....r

A Vancouver TV station has a news reporter named Anita Bath.
She has the usual NA English bad habit of pronouncing her "t"s as "d"s,
and she signs off every story: "I need a bath, Vancouver".

bill

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-04 21:24:52 UTC

Post by b***@shaw.ca
A Vancouver TV station has a news reporter named Anita Bath.
She has the usual NA English bad habit of pronouncing her "t"s as "d"s,
and she signs off every story: "I need a bath, Vancouver".

Native-speakers, though, interpret the short i as marking a following
voiceless stop, so homonymy isn't perceived (and doesn't actually exist).

Ross

2020-01-04 21:34:14 UTC

Native-speakers, though, interpret the short i as marking a following
voiceless stop, so homonymy isn't perceived (and doesn't actually exist).

Therefore, if native speakers get the joke (as I did), they
are making a mistake?

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-04 22:02:52 UTC

Native-speakers, though, interpret the short i as marking a following
voiceless stop, so homonymy isn't perceived (and doesn't actually exist).

Therefore, if native speakers get the joke (as I did), they
are making a mistake?

_Jokes_ do not need great fidelity. They are not hearing "Ah need a,"
they're hearing "Anita," and bill simply repeats the canard that AmE
doesn't distinguish t and d (in that environment).

Ross

2020-01-04 22:42:24 UTC

Native-speakers, though, interpret the short i as marking a following
voiceless stop, so homonymy isn't perceived (and doesn't actually exist).

Therefore, if native speakers get the joke (as I did), they
are making a mistake?

_Jokes_ do not need great fidelity.

So what was the point of your intervention?

They are not hearing "Ah need a,"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
they're hearing "Anita," and bill simply repeats the canard that AmE doesn't distinguish t and d (in that environment).

Bill said non-distinction was "usual" in "NA English".
Your oft-expressed view is that AmE _never_ fails
to distinguish t/d, even in the flapping environment.
Yet here you seem to be suggesting that only the
preceding vowel gives evidence for the distinction.
Your reference to "short i" is seriously misleading
-- you mean, not the vowel in "knit", but an allophonically slightly shorter version ("neat" vs "need") which
persists even when the consonant is voiced. I wonder
if you know of any studies that have shown this to
be universal in AmE?
This article and its references may give some idea
of the complexity of the matter. I doubt that either
your view or the "canard" (its negation) is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-05 14:17:18 UTC

Native-speakers, though, interpret the short i as marking a following
voiceless stop, so homonymy isn't perceived (and doesn't actually exist).

Therefore, if native speakers get the joke (as I did), they
are making a mistake?

_Jokes_ do not need great fidelity.

So what was the point of your intervention?

To correct the perpetual canard that AmE "doesn't distinguish" t from d
in that environment. It seems to be taught by incompetent dialog coaches
in English theater training programs, for instance (when they're not
busy failing to get them not to use the LOT vowel. Anyone who makes the
claim is simply unaware/unobservant of vowel phonetics.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
They are not hearing "Ah need a,"
they're hearing "Anita," and bill simply repeats the canard
that AmE doesn't distinguish t and d (in that environment).

Bill said non-distinction was "usual" in "NA English".

That is, of course, wrong. There's the added complication that his first
language was Netherlandish [a sop to JJ there], and it's possible that
he retains a slight accent, as even some who immigrated at an early age do.

Post by Ross
Your oft-expressed view is that AmE _never_ fails
to distinguish t/d, even in the flapping environment.
Yet here you seem to be suggesting that only the
preceding vowel gives evidence for the distinction.

I've never said anything different. Are you suggesting
there is some other evidence for the distinction in that
environment?

Post by Ross
Your reference to "short i" is seriously misleading
-- you mean, not the vowel in "knit", but an allophonically

Golly, you managed to figure that out on the basis of umpteen
previous posts and published descriptions of English allophony,
all by yourself?

Post by Ross
slightly shorter version ("neat" vs "need") which
persists even when the consonant is voiced. I wonder
if you know of any studies that have shown this to
be universal in AmE?

You mean, spectrograms of 325,000,000 people? No.

Post by Ross
This article and its references may give some idea
of the complexity of the matter. I doubt that either
your view or the "canard" (its negation) is true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping

Ross

2020-01-05 21:21:47 UTC

Native-speakers, though, interpret the short i as marking a following
voiceless stop, so homonymy isn't perceived (and doesn't actually exist).

Therefore, if native speakers get the joke (as I did), they
are making a mistake?

_Jokes_ do not need great fidelity.

So what was the point of your intervention?

To correct the perpetual canard that AmE "doesn't distinguish" t from d
in that environment.

Which, as I pointed out, is not what Bill said.

It seems to be taught by incompetent dialog coaches

Post by Peter T. Daniels
in English theater training programs, for instance (when they're not
busy failing to get them not to use the LOT vowel. Anyone who makes the
claim is simply unaware/unobservant of vowel phonetics.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
They are not hearing "Ah need a,"
they're hearing "Anita," and bill simply repeats the canard
that AmE doesn't distinguish t and d (in that environment).

Bill said non-distinction was "usual" in "NA English".

That is, of course, wrong.

So what is the correct statement of the case?

There's the added complication that his first

Post by Peter T. Daniels
language was Netherlandish [a sop to JJ there], and it's possible that
he retains a slight accent, as even some who immigrated at an early age do.

His accent (speaking) would have nothing to do with
the present question. But you are suggesting that
his first language might make him unable to hear
the difference between t/d in flapping environment.
(But then you admitted that whether he heard it or
not would make no difference to getting the joke.)

I've never said anything different. Are you suggesting
there is some other evidence for the distinction in that
environment?

I've heard you negate the so-called "canard" many times,
but I don't recall you saying this before.
So you're saying:
that the realizations of /t/ and /d/ may, in fact, be phonetically identical in certain environments in AmE.
(And the so-called "canard" is merely an over-generalization of this.)
BUT that flapping does not create homophones,
because there is an allophonic difference in vowel
length which makes it possible to distinguish them.

So what I want to know next is: Is this true for all
vowels and diphthongs? (bitter vs bidder etc.?)
And for all speakers?

My Canadian-raising, for example, makes writer/rider
and pouter/powder quite distinct, but I don't think
it works for other vowels. And I seem to recall, from
discussions of it back in the 60s, that some speakers
who have both CR and flapping nevertheless have the
above pairs as homophones. (It was explained by
rule-ordering at that time.)

Post by Ross
Your reference to "short i" is seriously misleading
-- you mean, not the vowel in "knit", but an allophonically

Golly, you managed to figure that out on the basis of umpteen previous posts and published descriptions of English allophony, all by yourself?

Your sarcasm is getting clumsy. You must be upset.
I know what readers of this newsgroup are likely to
understand by "short i".

Post by Ross
slightly shorter version ("neat" vs "need") which
persists even when the consonant is voiced. I wonder
if you know of any studies that have shown this to
be universal in AmE?

You mean, spectrograms of 325,000,000 people? No.

Well, that's disappointing, but I'd settle for any
study showing that some speaker(s) of AmE other than
yourself can reliably hear this distinction. Perhaps
the references in the Wiki article will have something.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-06 18:11:46 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
To correct the perpetual canard that AmE "doesn't distinguish" t from d
in that environment.

Which, as I pointed out, is not what Bill said.

Does that make it not a perpetual canard?

I've never said anything different. Are you suggesting
there is some other evidence for the distinction in that
environment?

I've heard you negate the so-called "canard" many times,
but I don't recall you saying this before.
that the realizations of /t/ and /d/ may, in fact, be phonetically identical in certain environments in AmE.

Ça, as they say, va sans dire. Did you not know it?

Post by Ross
So what I want to know next is: Is this true for all
vowels and diphthongs? (bitter vs bidder etc.?)

Any reason to think otherwise?

Post by Ross
And for all speakers?

Any reason to think otherwise?

Post by Ross
My Canadian-raising, for example, makes writer/rider
and pouter/powder quite distinct, but I don't think
it works for other vowels. And I seem to recall, from
discussions of it back in the 60s, that some speakers
who have both CR and flapping nevertheless have the
above pairs as homophones. (It was explained by
rule-ordering at that time.)

Post by Ross
slightly shorter version ("neat" vs "need") which
persists even when the consonant is voiced. I wonder
if you know of any studies that have shown this to
be universal in AmE?

You mean, spectrograms of 325,000,000 people? No.

The point of phonemics is that they _can't_ hear this distinction. What
they hear is /d/ vs. /t/.

Ross

2020-01-07 01:12:00 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
To correct the perpetual canard that AmE "doesn't distinguish" t from d
in that environment.

Which, as I pointed out, is not what Bill said.

Does that make it not a perpetual canard?

I don't consider either a canard ("unfounded rumour or story").

I've never said anything different. Are you suggesting
there is some other evidence for the distinction in that
environment?

Ça, as they say, va sans dire. Did you not know it?

It's the first time I've heard you admit it.

Post by Ross
So what I want to know next is: Is this true for all
vowels and diphthongs? (bitter vs bidder etc.?)

Any reason to think otherwise?

So you don't know.

Post by Ross
And for all speakers?

Any reason to think otherwise?

So you don't know.

Post by Ross
slightly shorter version ("neat" vs "need") which
persists even when the consonant is voiced. I wonder
if you know of any studies that have shown this to
be universal in AmE?

You mean, spectrograms of 325,000,000 people? No.

The point of phonemics is that they _can't_ hear this distinction. What they hear is /d/ vs. /t/.

I said "hear this distinction", meaning distinguish
between potentially-homophonous words. I don't care
where they localize the difference.

So you don't know of any such studies.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-07 13:14:37 UTC

Post by Ross
that the realizations of /t/ and /d/ may, in fact, be phonetically identical in certain environments in AmE.

Ça, as they say, va sans dire. Did you not know it?

It's the first time I've heard you admit it.

"admit"?

Post by Ross
Well, that's disappointing, but I'd settle for any
study showing that some speaker(s) of AmE other than
yourself can reliably hear this distinction. Perhaps
the references in the Wiki article will have something.

The point of phonemics is that they _can't_ hear this distinction. What they hear is /d/ vs. /t/.

I said "hear this distinction", meaning distinguish
between potentially-homophonous words. I don't care
where they localize the difference.

Of course they distinguish between them. They communicate, don't they?

Post by Ross
So you don't know of any such studies.

So you don't know how phonemic vs. phonetic works?

Ross

2020-01-07 20:13:25 UTC

Post by Ross
that the realizations of /t/ and /d/ may, in fact, be phonetically identical in certain environments in AmE.

Ça, as they say, va sans dire. Did you not know it?

It's the first time I've heard you admit it.

"admit"?

The point of phonemics is that they _can't_ hear this distinction. What they hear is /d/ vs. /t/.

I said "hear this distinction", meaning distinguish
between potentially-homophonous words. I don't care
where they localize the difference.

Of course they distinguish between them. They communicate, don't they?

I can't believe you don't understand this.
People "communicate" all the time using _actual_
homophones, which, as you must be aware, only rarely
cause problems in understanding.

The question here is whether the pairs involving
flapping (latter/ladder, bitter/bidder etc.) are
actual homophones or are phonetically distinguishable.
This could be tested in the same way people used to
test uncertain phonemic contrasts: give people a
recorded random sequence of pronunciations of the
two words, and ask them to tell which is which.

Post by Ross
So you don't know of any such studies.

So you don't know how phonemic vs. phonetic works?

I'll take the irrelevant question as a "No".

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-07 21:10:27 UTC

Post by Ross
that the realizations of /t/ and /d/ may, in fact, be phonetically identical in certain environments in AmE.

Ça, as they say, va sans dire. Did you not know it?

It's the first time I've heard you admit it.

"admit"?

The point of phonemics is that they _can't_ hear this distinction. What they hear is /d/ vs. /t/.

I said "hear this distinction", meaning distinguish
between potentially-homophonous words. I don't care
where they localize the difference.

Of course they distinguish between them. They communicate, don't they?

Do you have any reason whatsoever to suppose they are not distinguishable?

Post by Ross
This could be tested in the same way people used to
test uncertain phonemic contrasts: give people a
recorded random sequence of pronunciations of the
two words, and ask them to tell which is which.

It seems like that's the sort of experiment that's probably done as a term
paper in dozens of Phonetics classes around the country every year.

Post by Ross
So you don't know of any such studies.

So you don't know how phonemic vs. phonetic works?

I'll take the irrelevant question as a "No".

Ditto. Jim Gair must be spinning in his grave. (We didn't have Phonetics
in my time. It was listed as offered by J no period M. Cowan but he was
supposedly too busy administrating to actually teach a class.)

Ross

2020-01-07 23:59:27 UTC

Post by Ross
that the realizations of /t/ and /d/ may, in fact, be phonetically identical in certain environments in AmE.

Ça, as they say, va sans dire. Did you not know it?

It's the first time I've heard you admit it.

"admit"?

The point of phonemics is that they _can't_ hear this distinction. What they hear is /d/ vs. /t/.

I said "hear this distinction", meaning distinguish
between potentially-homophonous words. I don't care
where they localize the difference.

Of course they distinguish between them. They communicate, don't they?

Do you have any reason whatsoever to suppose they are not distinguishable?

Let's see...
(1) Apart from the Canadian Raising diphthongs, my own
pronunciations sound the same to me.

(2) Many linguists say so:
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=8697
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American_English
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping

It seems like that's the sort of experiment that's probably done as a term
paper in dozens of Phonetics classes around the country every year.

As I said, it's a well-known type of experiment. I just
haven't found a published account of it applied to
this particular question.
It may be out there, but I haven't got any more time
to spend looking. Vaux has a very extensive summary
of literature on the subject:

https://web.archive.org/web/20010615151824if_/http://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu:80/~ling80/assignments/flap.pdf

Post by Ross
So you don't know of any such studies.

So you don't know how phonemic vs. phonetic works?

I'll take the irrelevant question as a "No".

Ditto. Jim Gair must be spinning in his grave.

Sorry you mis-took. I know perfectly well how
phonemic vs phonetic works. But your question was
simply an evasion of the immediate point.

(We didn't have Phonetics

Post by Peter T. Daniels
in my time. It was listed as offered by J no period M. Cowan but he was
supposedly too busy administrating to actually teach a class.)

Ross

2020-01-05 00:28:52 UTC

A Vancouver TV station has a news reporter named Anita Bath. She
has the usual NA English bad habit of pronouncing her "t"s as
"d"s, and she signs off every story: "I need a bath, Vancouver".

Native-speakers, though, interpret the short i as marking a
following voiceless stop, so homonymy isn't perceived (and doesn't
actually exist).

Therefore, if native speakers get the joke (as I did), they are
making a mistake?

Perhaps you've been exposed to too many varieties of English. Speakers
of NZE, for example, are not conscious of using vowel length to make the
d/t distinction, so they see nothing wrong with a short i before a d.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

The length distinction PTD is talking about, as I
pointed out in my reply to him, is that between
the vowels of "neat" and "need". It is probably
found in all varieties of English. But it is
sub-phonemic, and speakers are not normally aware
of it.
I don't know what your statement about NZE speakers
is based on, or in fact what your response has to do
with my question. I'm a native speaker of Vancouver
English; why would exposure to other varieties make me
more able to understand the joke?

Ross

2020-01-05 01:45:30 UTC

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 10:24:55 AM UTC+13, Peter T.

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 4:17:14 PM UTC-5,

Post by b***@shaw.ca
A Vancouver TV station has a news reporter named Anita Bath.
She has the usual NA English bad habit of pronouncing her
"t"s as "d"s, and she signs off every story: "I need a bath,
Vancouver".

Native-speakers, though, interpret the short i as marking a
following voiceless stop, so homonymy isn't perceived (and
doesn't actually exist).

Therefore, if native speakers get the joke (as I did), they are
making a mistake?

Perhaps you've been exposed to too many varieties of English.
Speakers of NZE, for example, are not conscious of using vowel
length to make the d/t distinction, so they see nothing wrong with
a short i before a d.

But how consistent is it? In those versions of English where the d/t
distinction is very obvious, I suspect that the preceding vowel length
varies more because it's not needed for comprehension.

I'm not aware of any varieties of English in which the
distinction between /d/ and /t/ _in general_ is less
than "very obvious" -- where, consequently, there would
be an increased need for the vowel variation. What we're
talking about here is reduction (and possible disappearance)
of the phonetic difference in a very specific (though
hard to define precisely, see Wiki) environment.

We use a shorter

vowel in "need" when in a hurry, for example, and we lengthen "neat" for
emphasis.

Yes. The vowel length variation I'm talking about is
independent of tempo or emphasis. People will
produce it even when reading lists of unrelated words.

I don't know what your statement about NZE speakers is based on, or
in fact what your response has to do with my question. I'm a native
speaker of Vancouver English; why would exposure to other varieties
make me more able to understand the joke?

I thought you'd had a lot of exposure to NZE.

I have, and I don't know what you're talking about here.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-05 14:25:45 UTC

A Vancouver TV station has a news reporter named Anita Bath. She
has the usual NA English bad habit of pronouncing her "t"s as
"d"s, and she signs off every story: "I need a bath, Vancouver".

Native-speakers, though, interpret the short i as marking a
following voiceless stop, so homonymy isn't perceived (and doesn't
actually exist).

Therefore, if native speakers get the joke (as I did), they are
making a mistake?

Of course. No one (without phonetics training) is _conscious_ of
allophonic distinctions.

A few years ago I was at a talk by William Baxter, whose reconstruction
of Middle Chinese pronunciation had just been published, when the topic
of allophony in modern Chinese ("Mandarin") came up. An American linguist
of Chinese, David Prager Branner, rattled off the large variety of
different vowels (different-sounding to an English-speaker, that is)
that are transliterated with <i> in pinyin, and a Chinese professor of
early Chinese civilization asserted that the vowels all sounded identical
to him (they are of course conditioned by the preceding consonant, the
reverse of the AmE situation but the same phenomenon).

What's that joke about Australian vs. NZ English? I think it involves
"six" and "sex"? This week Colbert's week of features about his visit
to NZ was rerun, and once again I could observe how NZ English seems
to have picked up where the Great English Vowel Shift left off and
rotated the vowel diagram about two clicks further clockwise.

Lewis

2020-01-05 16:36:36 UTC

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did they
just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....
(Jury's still out on whether Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt considered the
possibility of spoonerism when they named their daughter Shiloh Pitt)....r

A Vancouver TV station has a news reporter named Anita Bath.
She has the usual NA English bad habit of pronouncing her "t"s as "d"s,
and she signs off every story: "I need a bath, Vancouver".

Letterkenny has an occasional character named Anita Dyck née Snatch.

--
If women wear a pair of pants, a pair of glasses, and a pair of
earrings, why don't they wear a pair of bras?

Jerry Friedman

2020-01-05 17:13:46 UTC

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did they
just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....
(Jury's still out on whether Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt considered the
possibility of spoonerism when they named their daughter Shiloh Pitt)....r

A Vancouver TV station has a news reporter named Anita Bath.
She has the usual NA English bad habit of pronouncing her "t"s as "d"s,
and she signs off every story: "I need a bath, Vancouver".

Letterkenny has an occasional character named Anita Dyck née Snatch.

And knock-knock jokes with "Anita".

--
Jerry Friedman

Lewis

2020-01-06 00:33:26 UTC

Post by b***@shaw.ca

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did they
just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....
(Jury's still out on whether Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt considered the
possibility of spoonerism when they named their daughter Shiloh Pitt)....r

A Vancouver TV station has a news reporter named Anita Bath.
She has the usual NA English bad habit of pronouncing her "t"s as "d"s,
and she signs off every story: "I need a bath, Vancouver".

Letterkenny has an occasional character named Anita Dyck née Snatch.

And knock-knock jokes with "Anita".

Her sister got attacked bu a cock that must have been a foot long at the
framer's market, left a huge gash. In fact, it was a fist-size gash and
to prevent the bleeding she did put her fist in her gash. It's a sad day
when you see your sister with a fist in her gash.

--
When we woke up that morning we had no way of knowing that in a
matter of hours we'd changed the way we were going. Where would I
be now? Where would I be now if we'd never met? Would I be
singing this song to someone else instead?

Peter Moylan

2020-01-04 23:43:51 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?

It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

Post by RH Draney
(Jury's still out on whether Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt considered
the possibility of spoonerism when they named their daughter Shiloh
Pitt)....r

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-05 14:28:26 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

But, Shirley, you spell the names of Noel Coward and Noel Blanc the same
as you spell the French word for Christmas?

I guess it needs to be added that Mel Blanc was famously Jewish, like
just about everyone in Hollywood in those days.

Lewis

2020-01-05 16:37:49 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

That's how the man's name is pronounced AFAIK. When it is a woman, it is
two syllables.

--
For a very few, the sky's the limit. And, sometimes, not even that.

Katy Jennison

2020-01-05 17:44:26 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

That's how the man's name is pronounced AFAIK. When it is a woman, it is
two syllables.

Writing as someone whose father's name was Noel, it usually worked out
at a syllable and a half. NO-@l, never No-ell or Nowell or No-ELLE.
This was BrE, natch.

Gnoll would be more like Knole (a Stately Home, m'Lud).

--
Katy Jennison

Jerry Friedman

2020-01-05 19:44:24 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

That's how the man's name is pronounced AFAIK. When it is a woman, it is
two syllables.

Writing as someone whose father's name was Noel, it usually worked out
This was BrE, natch.

When I've heard it in AmE, it's been 1 to 1.5 syllables.

Post by Katy Jennison
Gnoll would be more like Knole (a Stately Home, m'Lud).

Or "knoll", sometimes grassy.

(In Dungeons and Dragons, a gnoll is a kind of monster, possibly
intended to be between a gnome and a troll. They might be found
on the Internet too.)

--
Jerry Friedman

Ken Blake

2020-01-05 21:36:31 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

That's how the man's name is pronounced AFAIK. When it is a woman, it is
two syllables.

Writing as someone whose father's name was Noel, it usually worked out
This was BrE, natch.

When I've heard it in AmE, it's been 1 to 1.5 syllables.

I don't remember ever knowing someone with the name, so I've heard it
very seldom. The only Noel I can think of is Noel Coward, and as far as
I know, his name was pronounced like Katy's fathers' - a syllable and a
half, NO-@l.

So if I wanted to someone wearing a name badge that said "Noel," I would
say NO-@l.

--
Ken

Tony Cooper

2020-01-05 22:43:47 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

That's how the man's name is pronounced AFAIK. When it is a woman, it is
two syllables.

Writing as someone whose father's name was Noel, it usually worked out
This was BrE, natch.

When I've heard it in AmE, it's been 1 to 1.5 syllables.

I don't remember ever knowing someone with the name, so I've heard it
very seldom. The only Noel I can think of is Noel Coward, and as far as
I know, his name was pronounced like Katy's fathers' - a syllable and a
So if I wanted to someone wearing a name badge that said "Noel," I would

One of my wife's nephews is a Noel. (pronounced "knoll") He's not a
Christmas baby, though. He was supposed to be a "Joel", but the
hospital screwed up the spelling. The parents decided to stay with
"Noel".

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Lewis

2020-01-06 00:45:38 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

That's how the man's name is pronounced AFAIK. When it is a woman, it is
two syllables.

Writing as someone whose father's name was Noel, it usually worked out
This was BrE, natch.

When I've heard it in AmE, it's been 1 to 1.5 syllables.

I don't remember ever knowing someone with the name, so I've heard it
very seldom. The only Noel I can think of is Noel Coward, and as far as
I know, his name was pronounced like Katy's fathers' - a syllable and a
So if I wanted to someone wearing a name badge that said "Noel," I would

If there person was a woman she would correct you to the two syllable
form, No El though it might be spelt Noele or Noelle, but I did go to
school with a girl named Noel who absolutely hated December.

There is a new (terrible) movie with Bill Hader and Anna Kendrick
(both of whom I normally like) named _Noelle_🤷‍♀️ on Disney+.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-06 18:13:32 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
I don't remember ever knowing someone with the name, so I've heard it
very seldom. The only Noel I can think of is Noel Coward, and as far as
I know, his name was pronounced like Katy's fathers' - a syllable and a
So if I wanted to someone wearing a name badge that said "Noel," I would

Noel Harrison (son of Rex) was a moderately well known actor for a while.

Noel Neill played Lois Lane on the Steve Reeves *Superman* series.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-06 18:42:20 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Noel Neill played Lois Lane on the Steve Reeves *Superman* series.

Sorry, George Reeves. Steve Reeves was a muscleman who played Hercules
in that sort of movie.

George Reeves, OTOH, was in *Gone with the Wind*, as one of the Tarleton
Twins in the opening lawn party scene.

Lewis

2020-01-06 00:40:24 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
(In Dungeons and Dragons, a gnoll is a kind of monster, possibly
intended to be between a gnome and a troll. They might be found
on the Internet too.)

They predate D&D, but not in any meaningful way. In D&D they are neither
like trolls nor gnomes, but more like humanoid hyenas, though larger
than humans.

--
It was a fifty-four with a mashed up door and a cheesy little amp
with a sign on the front said "Fender Champ" and a second-hand
guitar it was a Stratocaster with a whammy bar

Jerry Friedman

2020-01-06 05:06:29 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
(In Dungeons and Dragons, a gnoll is a kind of monster, possibly
intended to be between a gnome and a troll. They might be found
on the Internet too.)

They predate D&D, but not in any meaningful way.

After sheer seconds of Wikipedia research, I think you may be referring
to gnoles in a story each by Lord Dunsany and Margaret St. Clair. If
not, what are you referring to?

Post by Lewis
In D&D they are neither
like trolls nor gnomes, but more like humanoid hyenas, though larger
than humans.

That sounds familiar, but they're between gnomes and trolls in size
and scariness (meaning generic gnomes, not 18th-level gnome
illusionists), and I could never think of any other reason for the
name.

--
Jerry Friedman

Lewis

2020-01-06 07:21:24 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
(In Dungeons and Dragons, a gnoll is a kind of monster, possibly
intended to be between a gnome and a troll. They might be found
on the Internet too.)

They predate D&D, but not in any meaningful way.

After sheer seconds of Wikipedia research, I think you may be referring
to gnoles in a story each by Lord Dunsany and Margaret St. Clair. If
not, what are you referring to?

My recollections from around 1979 and trying to look them up (since most
of the monsters in D&D were pulled straight from European
mythology,including many that most people thought TSR make up (kobols,
for one).

I didn't remember any specifics, just that they sort of existed before
D&D but they were not really similar and not mythological.

Looking at Wikipedia it seems likely that's what I found (or one of
them, at least) in my crawls through the stack of the main library. My
father might have had some input as well..

Post by Lewis
In D&D they are neither
like trolls nor gnomes, but more like humanoid hyenas, though larger
than humans.

That sounds familiar, but they're between gnomes and trolls in size
and scariness

Definitely not as scary as trolls, though that is mostly do to trolls
ability to regenerate hp.

Post by Jerry Friedman
(meaning generic gnomes, not 18th-level gnome illusionists), and I
could never think of any other reason for the name.

Most names weren't a combination of other names, so it's not a connection
I ever remember making.

I do remember arguing about the color of ocher jellies because the
person I was arguing with didn't own a dictionary.

--
'I'm just going to kick some arse dear' 'Oh, good. Just be sure you
wrap up well, then.'

Jerry Friedman

2020-01-06 16:57:46 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
(In Dungeons and Dragons, a gnoll is a kind of monster, possibly
intended to be between a gnome and a troll. They might be found
on the Internet too.)

They predate D&D, but not in any meaningful way.

After sheer seconds of Wikipedia research, I think you may be referring
to gnoles in a story each by Lord Dunsany and Margaret St. Clair. If
not, what are you referring to?

My recollections from around 1979 and trying to look them up (since most
of the monsters in D&D were pulled straight from European
mythology,including many that most people thought TSR make up (kobols,
for one).
I didn't remember any specifics, just that they sort of existed before
D&D but they were not really similar and not mythological.
Looking at Wikipedia it seems likely that's what I found (or one of
them, at least) in my crawls through the stack of the main library. My
father might have had some input as well..

Information in libararies? In dead-tree books? I sort of remember
that.

Post by Lewis
In D&D they are neither
like trolls nor gnomes, but more like humanoid hyenas, though larger
than humans.

That sounds familiar, but they're between gnomes and trolls in size
and scariness

Definitely not as scary as trolls, though that is mostly do to trolls
ability to regenerate hp.

Which the D&D people stole from Poul Anderson's /Three Hearts and
Three Lions/. (Those who like that sort of book will find it to be
just the sort of book they like. I did.) For all I know, Anderson
may have invented it.

Post by Jerry Friedman
(meaning generic gnomes, not 18th-level gnome illusionists), and I
could never think of any other reason for the name.

Most names weren't a combination of other names, so it's not a connection
I ever remember making.

But most names had obvious origins or looked as if they might, like
"ki-rin" (which did indeed turn out to be from Japanese folklore),
whereas "gnoll" didn't, to me.

Post by Lewis
I do remember arguing about the color of ocher jellies because the
person I was arguing with didn't own a dictionary.

And had never owned a 64-crayon Crayola set.

--
Jerry Friedman

Lewis

2020-01-07 01:48:23 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
(In Dungeons and Dragons, a gnoll is a kind of monster, possibly
intended to be between a gnome and a troll. They might be found
on the Internet too.)

They predate D&D, but not in any meaningful way.

After sheer seconds of Wikipedia research, I think you may be referring
to gnoles in a story each by Lord Dunsany and Margaret St. Clair. If
not, what are you referring to?

My recollections from around 1979 and trying to look them up (since most
of the monsters in D&D were pulled straight from European
mythology,including many that most people thought TSR make up (kobols,
for one).
I didn't remember any specifics, just that they sort of existed before
D&D but they were not really similar and not mythological.
Looking at Wikipedia it seems likely that's what I found (or one of
them, at least) in my crawls through the stack of the main library. My
father might have had some input as well..

Information in libararies? In dead-tree books? I sort of remember
that.

It was the late 70s, that was the only place information existed!

Post by Lewis
In D&D they are neither
like trolls nor gnomes, but more like humanoid hyenas, though larger
than humans.

That sounds familiar, but they're between gnomes and trolls in size
and scariness

Definitely not as scary as trolls, though that is mostly do to trolls
ability to regenerate hp.

Seems that in the Norse mythology trolls were restored fully after some
period of time, but were turned to stone if they allowed the sun to
touch them. But it's been a long time since I read those (as in, before
D&D).

Post by Lewis
Most names weren't a combination of other names, so it's not a connection
I ever remember making.

But most names had obvious origins or looked as if they might, like
"ki-rin" (which did indeed turn out to be from Japanese folklore),
whereas "gnoll" didn't, to me.

Many of the names and words in D&D were unfamiliar to most players, so
many players thought they were all (or practically) the inventions of
TSR. There was no reason to pick out one unfamiliar word and decide it
was a combination of two other words. Beholder>? Bugbear? Kobol? Efreet?
They all sounded invented.

Kirin is a good example, as no one I knew in 1979 had any knowledge at
all about Japanese myths and that looked entirely like a made-up unicorn
variation.

Post by Lewis
I do remember arguing about the color of ocher jellies because the
person I was arguing with didn't own a dictionary.

And had never owned a 64-crayon Crayola set.

Or more likely never read the names of the individual crayons.

--
Q: how do you titillate an ocelot? A: you oscillate its tit a lot.

Jerry Friedman

2020-01-07 16:07:49 UTC

[gnolls]

Post by Lewis
In D&D they are neither
like trolls nor gnomes, but more like humanoid hyenas, though larger
than humans.

That sounds familiar, but they're between gnomes and trolls in size
and scariness

Definitely not as scary as trolls, though that is mostly do to trolls
ability to regenerate hp.

Hm.

Post by Lewis
Most names weren't a combination of other names, so it's not a connection
I ever remember making.

But most names had obvious origins or looked as if they might, like
"ki-rin" (which did indeed turn out to be from Japanese folklore),
whereas "gnoll" didn't, to me.

Sad state of American education. (And "beholder" should have
been obvious if you looked at the picture.)

Post by Lewis
They all sounded invented.
Kirin is a good example, as no one I knew in 1979 had any knowledge at
all about Japanese myths

Hm again. I certainly didn't know it from Japanese myths, and I don't
remember what I thought. Maybe I had no idea it would have anything
to do with anyone's folklore. I'm pretty sure, though, that unlike most
of the monster names, "gnoll" stood out to me as a made-up word and
possibly a blend.

Post by Lewis
and that looked entirely like a made-up unicorn
variation.

ObScure reference: Is that the one with the pelicans going extinct?

Post by Lewis
I do remember arguing about the color of ocher jellies because the
person I was arguing with didn't own a dictionary.

And had never owned a 64-crayon Crayola set.

Or more likely never read the names of the individual crayons.

Well, I guess that's /possible/…

--
Jerry Friedman

Lewis

2020-01-07 21:40:30 UTC

Post by Lewis
and that looked entirely like a made-up unicorn
variation.

ObScure reference: Is that the one with the pelicans going extinct?

I don't remember. I think it involves chess. And a actual unicorn?

--
These budget numbers are not just estimates, these are the actual
results for the fiscal year that ended February the 30th. - GWB

Jerry Friedman

2020-01-08 02:37:19 UTC

Post by Lewis
and that looked entirely like a made-up unicorn
variation.

ObScure reference: Is that the one with the pelicans going extinct?

I don't remember. I think it involves chess. And a actual unicorn?

Yes to both, it seems. Mythical species appear when natural ones
go extinct. For some reason I thought the Brown Pelican (once
decreasing fast in the U.S., now recovered) was one of the ones
mentioned, but it's not.

https://lost-contact.mit.edu/afs/adrake.org/usr/rkh/Books/books/zelazny/Zelazny,%20Roger%20(54%20ebooks%20txt)/tex/Unicorn%20Variation.pdf

--
Jerry Friedman

Kerr-Mudd,John

2020-01-05 21:17:48 UTC

On Sun, 05 Jan 2020 17:44:26 GMT, Katy Jennison

[OT] Were the parents of PlÃ¡cido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have
a two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just
like gnoll.

That's how the man's name is pronounced AFAIK. When it is a woman, it
is two syllables.

Writing as someone whose father's name was Noel, it usually worked out
This was BrE, natch.
Gnoll would be more like Knole (a Stately Home, m'Lud).

Maybe. Knowle West is certainly an Estate.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Peter Young

2020-01-05 20:32:31 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

That's how the man's name is pronounced AFAIK. When it is a woman, it is
two syllables.

In BrE they're both two syllables.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Lewis

2020-01-06 00:49:39 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

That's how the man's name is pronounced AFAIK. When it is a woman, it is
two syllables.

In BrE they're both two syllables.

I've never heard Noel Edmunds, Noel Fielding, nor Noel Callagher's name
said with two syllables.

--
Eyes the shady night has shut/Cannot see the record cut And silence
sounds no worse than cheers/After earth has stopped the ears.

Peter Young

2020-01-06 07:15:20 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

That's how the man's name is pronounced AFAIK. When it is a woman, it is
two syllables.

In BrE they're both two syllables.

I've never heard Noel Edmunds, Noel Fielding, nor Noel Callagher's name
said with two syllables.

I have.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Janet

2020-01-06 15:43:12 UTC

Subject: Re: [OT] Re: A placebo post
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

That's how the man's name is pronounced AFAIK. When it is a woman, it is
two syllables.

In BrE they're both two syllables.

I've never heard Noel Edmunds, Noel Fielding, nor Noel Callagher's name
said with two syllables.

I have.
Peter.

Me too. Locally I know two male Brit Noels IRL, both pronounce their
name with two syllables. They're both aged around 70, it used to be
quite a popular name in their day.

Janet

Lewis

2020-01-07 01:30:18 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

That's how the man's name is pronounced AFAIK. When it is a woman, it is
two syllables.

In BrE they're both two syllables.

I've never heard Noel Edmunds, Noel Fielding, nor Noel Callagher's name
said with two syllables.

I have.

We must have very different definitions of syllable then, or you have
never heard them say their own names.

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, Brain! But do I have what it take to be the 'Lord of the
Dance'?"

Ken Blake

2020-01-05 17:04:11 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

Interesting, thanks. I didn't know that. Is there anyone who wants his
name to be two syllables and spells it Noël?

--
Ken

Peter Young

2020-01-05 20:33:49 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

Interesting, thanks. I didn't know that. Is there anyone who wants his
name to be two syllables and spells it Noël?

The late Mr Coward, and many others in Rightpondia.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Ken Blake

2020-01-05 21:40:05 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc wasn't
thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have a
two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just like
gnoll.

Interesting, thanks. I didn't know that. Is there anyone who wants his
name to be two syllables and spells it Noël?

The late Mr Coward,

Yes, I know. I just mentioned him in another post in this thread. Sorry
if I wasn't clear enough, but I was asking about Australians.

Post by Peter Young
and many others in Rightpondia.

--
Ken

Peter Moylan

2020-01-06 00:39:26 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or
did they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc
wasn't thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't
have a two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it
just like gnoll.

Interesting, thanks. I didn't know that. Is there anyone who wants
his name to be two syllables and spells it Noël?

Not to my knowledge (in Australia), but I've met the feminine form
Noëlle, both with and without the dots.

I might have spoken too soon when comparing Noel with gnoll. Noel always
has a long 'o'. I've never met any gnolls, and it's possible that they
have a short 'o'.

(Long and short as in length, not vowel quality. That shouldn't need to
be said, but I see that someone brought up that silly "vowel that speaks
its name" definition of long in another discussion of vowel length.)

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Joy Beeson

2020-01-06 03:26:36 UTC

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:39:26 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
That shouldn't need to
be said, but I see that someone brought up that silly "vowel that speaks
its name" definition of long in another discussion of vowel length.

That *is* a silly name for it, but what is the right name? Without
that very useful distinction, we would have people writing "mic" when
they mean "mike".

--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.

Ross

2020-01-06 04:01:53 UTC

Post by Joy Beeson
On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:39:26 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
That shouldn't need to
be said, but I see that someone brought up that silly "vowel that speaks
its name" definition of long in another discussion of vowel length.

That *is* a silly name for it, but what is the right name? Without
that very useful distinction, we would have people writing "mic" when
they mean "mike".

I don't understand what's silly about it -- though
it's not really a name for them, or even exactly
a definition. It's more a mnemonic -- everybody can
say the alphabet, and the names of the five vowel
letters give you the long vowels commonly spelled
with each letter, as in tame, theme, time, tone, tune.
If you want to talk about English vowels without
getting into the technicalities of phonetics, or
remembering Wells-words, this system is fine. You
still won't have a name for some of the vowels --
as in half, sauce, house, book -- but it's a start.

Jerry Friedman

2020-01-06 04:58:43 UTC

Post by Joy Beeson
On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:39:26 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
That shouldn't need to
be said, but I see that someone brought up that silly "vowel that speaks
its name" definition of long in another discussion of vowel length.

That *is* a silly name for it, but what is the right name? Without
that very useful distinction, we would have people writing "mic" when
they mean "mike".

How do I get a ticket to your universe?

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter T. Daniels

2020-01-06 18:35:31 UTC

Post by Joy Beeson
On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:39:26 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
That shouldn't need to
be said, but I see that someone brought up that silly "vowel that speaks
its name" definition of long in another discussion of vowel length.

That *is* a silly name for it, but what is the right name? Without
that very useful distinction, we would have people writing "mic" when
they mean "mike".

Magic Mic would have been a movie about an Irish stripper with a special
talent.

CDB

2020-01-06 15:04:57 UTC

Post by occam
[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or
did they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

I have it on good authority that Jewish voice actor Mel Blanc
wasn't thinking things through when he named his son Noel....

White Christmas?
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't have
a two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it just
like gnoll.

Am I right in thinking that your pronunciation of "o" in that name is a
diphthong (which I might transcribe [Ew]) and your "l" a 'dark "l"'?
That would give the effect of two syllables for me.

I remember Tolkien in one of his appendices to LOTR saying that Elves
would transcribe [BrE] "bell, fill" as "beol, fiol".

Post by RH Draney
(Jury's still out on whether Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt
considered the possibility of spoonerism when they named their
daughter Shiloh Pitt)....r

She could change one of her names to "Voight".

Peter Moylan

2020-01-06 23:51:38 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't
have a two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it
just like gnoll.

Am I right in thinking that your pronunciation of "o" in that name is
a diphthong (which I might transcribe [Ew]) and your "l" a 'dark
"l"'? That would give the effect of two syllables for me.

My own pronunciation uses a long "cot" vowel, not a diphthong, so it
rhymes with "roll"; but I think some people here do have a [w], so
[nA.:wl]. I guess you could call the [w] the second vowel in a diphthong.

I don't seem to have a dark 'l' in the name, but probably some
Australians do.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Quinn C

2020-01-07 22:50:35 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
It took me a while to see your point, because Australians don't
have a two-syllable pronunciation of the name Noel. We pronounce it
just like gnoll.

Am I right in thinking that your pronunciation of "o" in that name is
a diphthong (which I might transcribe [Ew]) and your "l" a 'dark
"l"'? That would give the effect of two syllables for me.

My own pronunciation uses a long "cot" vowel, not a diphthong, so it
rhymes with "roll";

Now I'm very curious how you say "roll", which normally has the
above-mentioned diphthong (Wells:GOAT.)

The closest, to me, to the "cot" vowel lengthened would be the one of
"caul"... (Wells:THOUGHT/NORTH)

Post by Peter Moylan
but I think some people here do have a [w], so
[nA.:wl].

Ah, now it's [A:]? So in you're non-rhotic speech, "Noel" sounds like
"gnarl"? (Wells:BATH/START)

(Overall, this just confirms what we all know - informal talk about
phonetics doesn't work.)

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

CDB

2020-01-04 13:22:36 UTC

Post by CDB
THe Latin verse, Ps 114 v 9, is "Placebo Domino in regione vivorum"
in the Vulgate. It does not appear in the KJV, which stops at
verse 8. I didn't check farther back; sorry.

[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

Perhaps it was an aspirational nickname used throughout the
neighbourhood. Por lo menos, Joselito.

Quinn C

2020-01-07 22:50:35 UTC

Post by CDB
THe Latin verse, Ps 114 v 9, is "Placebo Domino in regione vivorum"
in the Vulgate. It does not appear in the KJV, which stops at
verse 8. I didn't check farther back; sorry.

[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

Perhaps it was an aspirational nickname used throughout the
neighbourhood. Por lo menos, Joselito.

From a song featuring in our next concert:

| To snow on roofs
| and the peace of Sunday.
| To quiet and certitude,
| to breathing, to air.

<https://donmacdonaldmusic.com/product/winter-sun/>

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

CDB

2020-01-08 13:42:18 UTC

Post by CDB
THe Latin verse, Ps 114 v 9, is "Placebo Domino in regione
vivorum" in the Vulgate. It does not appear in the KJV, which
stops at verse 8. I didn't check farther back; sorry.

[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did
they just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

Perhaps it was an aspirational nickname used throughout the
neighbourhood. Por lo menos, Joselito.

| To snow on roofs | and the peace of Sunday. | To quiet and
certitude, | to breathing, to air.
<https://donmacdonaldmusic.com/product/winter-sun/>

Ah, the good old days. You and I are about to have a taste of
new-school winter, with temperatures ranging from above freezing to the
minus twenties and gale-force winds.

It may have quieted down by Sunday, but I don't know how much snow there
will be on the roof. I'm staying inside

Lewis

2020-01-04 20:23:54 UTC

Post by CDB
THe Latin verse, Ps 114 v 9, is "Placebo Domino in regione vivorum" in
the Vulgate. It does not appear in the KJV, which stops at verse 8. I
didn't check farther back; sorry.

[OT] Were the parents of Plácido Domingo plain mischievous or did they
just want a quiet Sunday when they named their son?

It is not an uncommon name:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placido>

I've heard of both Plácido Domingo and Placido Falconio, and it seems
that I might once have known who the furniture guy was, though not well
enough to stick.

--
Never trust a man who, when left alone in a room with a tea cosy,
doesn't try it on -- Billy Connolly

Ross

2020-01-02 20:01:45 UTC

Sort of. "I will please".
I didn't realise it was from the Vespers for the Office of the Dead
(quoting a Psalm): "I will please the Lord in the land of the living".
https://www.etymonline.com/word/placebo

Post by occam
I propose the verb 'to placebo' as an act deliberately carried out in
order to conjure up a positive effect out of thin air.

I question whether the medical use came from Vespers for the Office of
the Dead. In the late-18th/early-19th centuries educated people knew
Latin and Latin was, and is, widely used in medical and other scientific
terminology. The medical sense is certainly some centuries later than
the religious but I'd etill guess that the medical usage came directly
from Latin.
This has a long list of "medical roots, suffixes and prefixes".
The vast majority are from Latin and Greek.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_roots,_suffixes_and_prefixes
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

But the semantic connections between Latin/Greek and
your medical roots are usually pretty simple and
obvious. "Placebo" is different. OED offers a couple
of possible intermediate steps:

2. to sing (a) placebo, to play (with) placebo, to make placebo, to be at the school of placebo
all meaning "to play the sycophant or flatterer; to be servile" (1340-)

3. placebo "A flatterer, a sycophant, a parasite"
(c1385-)

Thus 4 (the medical use, 1785-) for a drug whose
false promise of therapeutic effect the patient believes.

Don P

2020-01-03 22:22:58 UTC

The question of placebos has been bouncing around my brain . . .
Is the root of placebo the same as 'to placate'?

Sort of. "I will please".
I didn't realise it was from the Vespers for the Office of the Dead
(quoting a Psalm): "I will please the Lord in the land of the living".

When universities documented their formal decisions in Latin (as Oxford
and Cambridge did for centuries) votes for and against a motion were
recorded as Placet and Non Placet.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

CDB

2020-01-04 13:23:09 UTC

Post by Don P

The question of placebos has been bouncing around my brain . . .
Is the root of placebo the same as 'to placate'?

Sort of. "I will please".
I didn't realise it was from the Vespers for the Office of the Dead
(quoting a Psalm): "I will please the Lord in the land of the living".

When universities documented their formal decisions in Latin (as
Oxford and Cambridge did for centuries) votes for and against a
motion were recorded as Placet and Non Placet.

I wasn't able, in a brief search, to find a clear statement about what
the Romans used, but some of the _Lewis & Short_ entry for "placeo"
seems to indicate that it was the same.

'1. In publicists' lang., to resolve, will, order, determine: “senatui
placere, ut C. Pansa, etc.,” Cic. Phil. 14, 14, 38: “senatui placere, C.
Cassium, etc.,” id. ib. 11, 12, 30: “deliberatur de Avarico in communi
concilio, incendi placeret an defendi,” Caes. B. G. 7, 15: “quamobrem
placitum est mihi, ut, etc.,” Cic. Att. 8, 12, A, § “4: edixit, mulieres
ante horam quintam venire in theatrum non placere,” Suet. Aug. 44 fin.;
cf.: “quid placeat, die,” your decision, Juv. 10, 338'

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Dplaceo

b***@aol.com

2020-01-07 00:16:40 UTC

Sort of. "I will please".

But "placate" is derived from "placare" (the two have the same
meaning), not from "placere". The idea seems to be that placebo
aims at pleasing patients rather than actually treating their
diseases.

Post by CDB
I didn't realise it was from the Vespers for the Office of the Dead
(quoting a Psalm): "I will please the Lord in the land of the living".
https://www.etymonline.com/word/placebo

Post by occam
I propose the verb 'to placebo' as an act deliberately carried out in
order to conjure up a positive effect out of thin air.

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2020-01-07 15:21:05 UTC

Post by b***@aol.com