Discussion:
Over 40 mansions form Castro's Residence
(demasiado antiguo para responder)
Rolf R
2007-11-21 01:27:22 UTC
Permalink
IMPORTANT INFORMATION IS NOW BEING OFFERED TO THE PUBLIC BY EXILED CUBAN
INTELLIGENCE MAYOR ROBERTO HERNÁNDEZ DEL LLANO.

Mega TV on direct TV, Channel 22, on Comcast.

SEE THE OVER 4O MANSIONS THAT FORM THE RESIDENCE OF DICTATOR FOR LIFE
FIDEL CASTRO.
MasterChief
2007-11-21 02:17:15 UTC
Permalink
Y que Dalia la vieja le pega los tarros al Kaga con el
chofer:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Post by Rolf R
IMPORTANT INFORMATION IS NOW BEING OFFERED TO THE PUBLIC BY EXILED CUBAN
INTELLIGENCE MAYOR ROBERTO HERNÁNDEZ DEL LLANO.
Mega TV on direct TV, Channel 22, on Comcast.
SEE THE OVER 4O MANSIONS THAT FORM THE RESIDENCE OF DICTATOR FOR LIFE
FIDEL CASTRO.
Dan Christensen
2007-11-22 04:46:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolf R
IMPORTANT INFORMATION IS NOW BEING OFFERED TO THE PUBLIC BY EXILED CUBAN
INTELLIGENCE MAYOR ROBERTO HERNÁNDEZ DEL LLANO.
How odd then that even Forbes Magazine must resort to the use of
rumours and speculation ("assumptions") to support their outrageous
claims about Fidel's supposed fortune. Try as they may for years now,
they obviously still have absolutey nothing on him! (See recent
posting at SCC.) I guess they will be watching your show with baited
breath! (Ha, ha, ha!)

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
Rolf R
2007-11-22 14:06:43 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Rolf R
IMPORTANT INFORMATION IS NOW BEING OFFERED TO THE PUBLIC BY EXILED CUBAN
INTELLIGENCE MAYOR ROBERTO HERNÁNDEZ DEL LLANO.
How odd then that even Forbes Magazine must resort to the use of
rumours and speculation ("assumptions") to support their outrageous
claims about Fidel's supposed fortune. Try as they may for years now,
they obviously still have absolutey nothing on him! (See recent
posting at SCC.) I guess they will be watching your show with baited
breath! (Ha, ha, ha!)
Are you blind or stupid. You speak on propaganda sticks, but you are
incapable of watching real reels. Good washed head you are!
Post by Dan Christensen
Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-22 21:33:37 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message news:0c052d54-6d83-4cd0-a7d7-***@r60g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
(snip)
How odd then that even Forbes Magazine must resort to the use of rumours
and speculation
Castro has a "residence" in lots of Cuban towns Dan.
Ask any Cuban.

Pl
Dan Christensen
2007-11-23 04:31:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
(snip)
How odd then that even Forbes Magazine must resort to the use of rumours
and speculation
Castro has a "residence" in lots of Cuban towns Dan.
Ask any Cuban.
You will have to do better than this. Get back to us when you have
evidence to support your outrageous claims.

Even Forbes seems to have given up, having been reduced to posting
what they admit are mere speculation and rumour on the matter of
Fidel's supposed personal fortune. (See recent postings at SCC.) I
wonder why they feel compelled to embarrass themselves like this every
year.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-23 09:46:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
(snip)
How odd then that even Forbes Magazine must resort to the use of rumours
and speculation
Castro has a "residence" in lots of Cuban towns Dan.
Ask any Cuban.
You will have to do better than this
some pictures maybe?

Just Havana, Cojimar, Varadero,
http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-castro-f3/casas-de-fidel-castro-en-cuba-t3076.htm
http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-castro-f3/casas-de-fidel-castro-en-la-habana-t3.htm
http://llamado32.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html
http://llamado32.blogspot.com/2007/06/casas-de-visitas-en-varadero-ii-cupula.html
http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=cubanosenmiami&message.id=799
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=EarthPeople&Number=536344&Searchpage=1&Main=530977&Words=+luisdo&topic=&Search=true
http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-castro-f3/casas-del-laguito-la-habana-t2684.htm

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-23 13:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
(snip)
How odd then that even Forbes Magazine must resort to the use of rumours
and speculation
Castro has a "residence" in lots of Cuban towns Dan.
Ask any Cuban.
You will have to do better than this
some pictures maybe?
Just Havana, Cojimar, Varadero,http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas...http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas...http://llamado32.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.htmlhttp://llamado32.blogspot.com/2007/06/casas-de-visitas-en-varadero-ii...http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=cubanosenm...http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=EarthPeople&Numbe...http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas...
A bunch of random pictures at various anti-Cuban forums? Sorry, still
not good enough. Even the self-styled "capitalists' tool" Forbes
Magazine, with all their journalistic resources, isn't buying into
your bullshit. Again, even they have been reduced to speculation and
rumour to support their outrageous claims (recent postings at SCC).
But at least they are honest enough to admit it. Perhaps you should
learn from their example.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

Visit my
Bufozzo
2007-11-23 14:55:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
(snip)
How odd then that even Forbes Magazine must resort to the use of rumours
and speculation
Castro has a "residence" in lots of Cuban towns Dan.
Ask any Cuban.
You will have to do better than this
some pictures maybe?
Just Havana, Cojimar,
Varadero,http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas...http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas...http://llamado32.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.htmlhttp://llamado32.blogspot.com/2007/06/casas-de-visitas-en-varadero-ii...http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=cubanosenm...http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=EarthPeople&Numbe...http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas...
A bunch of random pictures at various anti-Cuban forums? Sorry, still
not good enough. Even the self-styled "capitalists' tool" Forbes
Magazine, with all their journalistic resources, isn't buying into
your bullshit. Again, even they have been reduced to speculation and
rumour to support their outrageous claims (recent postings at SCC).
But at least they are honest enough to admit it. Perhaps you should
learn from their example.
Just perhaps.

Sr Bufozzo
Pearson
2007-11-23 17:17:41 UTC
Permalink
Mister Christensen,

I love this part mention on your website about Democracy and Elections
in Cuba:

"While the Communist Party of Cuba is the only legally sanctioned
party there, it plays no role in the electoral process. By law, it can
neither nominate nor, in any way, endorse any individual candidates"
That is so telling and tipical... Obviosly you don't understand what
Democracy means.

The cuban disidents in prision or executed tell a different story.
Dan Christensen
2007-11-23 21:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pearson
Mister Christensen,
I love this part mention on your website about Democracy and Elections
"While the Communist Party of Cuba is the only legally sanctioned
party there, it plays no role in the electoral process. By law, it can
neither nominate nor, in any way, endorse any individual candidates"
That is so telling and tipical... Obviosly you don't understand what
Democracy means.
It means the majority rules. In particular, it means you cannot buy an
election as you can in the US. What is now, a billion to obtain the US
presidency?

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-25 09:11:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Pearson
Mister Christensen,
I love this part mention on your website about Democracy and Elections
"While the Communist Party of Cuba is the only legally sanctioned
party there, it plays no role in the electoral process. By law, it can
neither nominate nor, in any way, endorse any individual candidates"
That is so telling and tipical... Obviosly you don't understand what
Democracy means.
It means the majority rules.
Nope.
It means the regime rules as it denies freedom of speech and uses repressive
laws control the population.
"Candidates" are "selected" in public "votes" with agents of the Cuban
regime present to record and punish dissent.
No dissent is allowed. "Candidates" are imposed at the local level and for
the higher levels (national) subject to approval by the regime's "mass
organizations" that have a veto.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/elections_in_cuba.htm
Post by Dan Christensen
In particular, it means you cannot buy an
election as you can in the US.
as it is "owned" by Castro and he won't sell it you mean?

Castro's system:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/totalitarian_system.htm

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-25 20:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Pearson
Mister Christensen,
I love this part mention on your website about Democracy and Elections
"While the Communist Party of Cuba is the only legally sanctioned
party there, it plays no role in the electoral process. By law, it can
neither nominate nor, in any way, endorse any individual candidates"
That is so telling and tipical... Obviosly you don't understand what
Democracy means.
It means the majority rules.
Nope.
It means the regime rules as it denies freedom of speech and uses repressive
laws control the population.
Cuba is more democratic than the US ever was. Unlike the US, every
Cuban has the equal right AND OPPORTUNITY -- despite their economic
circumstances -- to nominate candidates, run for and win any public
office. And all candidates, including Fidel, must obtain the support
of the majority of his/her constituents. I understand less than a
quarter of the electorate originally supported your man, Dubya. Even
his opponent Nobel Laureate, Al Gore, got more votes!
Post by PL
"Candidates" are "selected" in public "votes" with agents of the Cuban
regime present to record and punish dissent.
Typically, the only people present are those living in the
neigbourhood. And without the support of your neighbours, you aren't
going to get anywhere in the Cuban system. The fact that paid agents
of the US regime are getting nowhere in no way undermines the
legitimacy of the electoral system -- quite the contrary.
Post by PL
No dissent is allowed.
You mean no traitors are likely to be nominated by their neighbours.
Post by PL
"Candidates" are imposed at the local level and for
the higher levels (national) subject to approval by the regime's "mass
organizations" that have a veto.
You would much prefer that United Fruit, AT&T or the CIA to have the
veto -- like the "good old days," eh, Mr. Lobbyist? -- but in Cuba,
the people themselves, or their democratically elected local
representatives do all the nominating. Too much democracy for you? I
guess that's why you keep promoting genocidal trade sanctions against
them, --to force a US-dominated system on them.
Post by PL
http://www.cubaverdad.net/elections_in_cuba.htm
But this is just your lying website, Mr. Lobbyist. I see you are still
passing off that report rejected by the UNHRC as a "UN assessment."
When can we expect you to remove this and other lies?

For the truth about elections in Cuba, see "Democracy in Cuba" at my
website.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
Rolf R
2007-11-25 21:22:39 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Cuba is more democratic than the US ever was.
I lived among Communists. I know well how the express in private. Not
even the raunchiest microcephallic jerk among them would say that stupid
statement. This is only created for external consumption of the useful
fools, like you. You are a parrot.
PL
2007-11-25 22:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Cuba is more democratic than the US ever was.
I lived among Communists. I know well how the express in private. Not
even the raunchiest microcephallic jerk among them would say that stupid
statement. This is only created for external consumption of the useful
fools, like you. You are a parrot.
Dan Christensen is a Canadian Stalinist hypocrite that loves in Canada,
bitches about the smallest imagined problem (once falsely claiming he was
censored in SCC) while supporting human rights abuses in Cuba.
He is a Stalinist that wants to live anywhere but in a place where he isn't
in control.
He rejects freedom of speech and has violated privacy laws on two
continents.

PL
µ
Rolf R
2007-11-26 04:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Dan Christensen is a Canadian Stalinist hypocrite
It figures. But on top of that he is a jerk -- as a whole -- a peabrain!
f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
2007-11-26 15:03:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolf R
Post by PL
Dan Christensen is a Canadian Stalinist hypocrite
It figures. But on top of that he is a jerk -- as a whole -- a
peabrain!
When the facts aren't in your favour you hurl meaningless abuse, but it
doesn't change the facts.

--
Regards, Fred
<http://www.fredwilliams.ca/thesecretofmoney.html>
f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
2007-11-26 15:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Cuba is more democratic than the US ever was.
I lived among Communists. I know well how the express in private. Not
even the raunchiest microcephallic jerk among them would say that
stupid statement. This is only created for external consumption of the
useful fools, like you. You are a parrot.
The reality matches Dan's report. The meetings of mass organizations
take place at least weekly and more often prior to am election. They
invovled people even from the poorest neighbourhoods and everybody gets
a say. It's a great experession of democracy like nothing we have here
on the mainland.

--
Regards, Fred
<http://www.fredwilliams.ca/thesecretofmoney.html>
PL
2007-11-26 21:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Cuba is more democratic than the US ever was.
I lived among Communists. I know well how the express in private. Not
even the raunchiest microcephallic jerk among them would say that
stupid statement. This is only created for external consumption of the
useful fools, like you. You are a parrot.
The reality matches Dan's report.
Nope.
It disproves Dan's lies.
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The meetings of mass organizations
take place at least weekly and more often prior to am election.
and the "mass organizations" and al meetings are controlled by the regime.

For more information see:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/elections_in_cuba.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/totalitarian_system.htm

PL
f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
2007-11-27 03:00:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Cuba is more democratic than the US ever was.
I lived among Communists. I know well how the express in private.
Not even the raunchiest microcephallic jerk among them would say
that stupid statement. This is only created for external consumption
of the useful fools, like you. You are a parrot.
The reality matches Dan's report.
Nope.
It disproves Dan's lies.
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The meetings of mass organizations
take place at least weekly and more often prior to am election.
and the "mass organizations" and al meetings are controlled by the regime.
But it doesn't even make sense. There have been many dictatorships in
the world and they don't set up thousands and thousands of public
meetings all over their countries. If it were controlled by the
committee to defend the revolution they'd have a tremendously hard job
of it with so many people meeting and talking to each other. No one
can keep a lid on that sort of activity. Dictators don't attempt it.
Only in a democracy can you allow that sort of continual, grassroots
political activity.
Again, I point out that if Castro is a dictator, he seems very unclear
on the concept.

--
Regards, Fred
<http://www.fredwilliams.ca/thesecretofmoney.html>
Dan Christensen
2007-11-27 03:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Cuba is more democratic than the US ever was.
I lived among Communists. I know well how the express in private.
Not even the raunchiest microcephallic jerk among them would say
that stupid statement. This is only created for external consumption
of the useful fools, like you. You are a parrot.
The reality matches Dan's report.
Nope.
It disproves Dan's lies.
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The meetings of mass organizations
take place at least weekly and more often prior to am election.
and the "mass organizations" and al meetings are controlled by the regime.
But it doesn't even make sense. There have been many dictatorships in
the world and they don't set up thousands and thousands of public
meetings all over their countries. If it were controlled by the
committee to defend the revolution they'd have a tremendously hard job
of it with so many people meeting and talking to each other. No one
can keep a lid on that sort of activity. Dictators don't attempt it.
Only in a democracy can you allow that sort of continual, grassroots
political activity.
Again, I point out that if Castro is a dictator, he seems very unclear
on the concept.
Excellent points, Fred! I will have to incorporate this argument into
my "Democracy in Cuba." Keep up the good work!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-27 11:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Cuba is more democratic than the US ever was.
I lived among Communists. I know well how the express in private.
Not even the raunchiest microcephallic jerk among them would say
that stupid statement. This is only created for external consumption
of the useful fools, like you. You are a parrot.
The reality matches Dan's report.
Nope.
It disproves Dan's lies.
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The meetings of mass organizations
take place at least weekly and more often prior to am election.
and the "mass organizations" and al meetings are controlled by the regime.
But it doesn't even make sense. There have been many dictatorships in
the world and they don't set up thousands and thousands of public
meetings all over their countries. If it were controlled by the
committee to defend the revolution they'd have a tremendously hard job
of it with so many people meeting and talking to each other. No one
can keep a lid on that sort of activity. Dictators don't attempt it.
Only in a democracy can you allow that sort of continual, grassroots
political activity.
Again, I point out that if Castro is a dictator, he seems very unclear
on the concept.
Excellent points, Fred! I
actually mute points that show how the system of social control
operates.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/totalitarian_system.htm

PL
PL
2007-11-27 11:00:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Cuba is more democratic than the US ever was.
I lived among Communists. I know well how the express in private.
Not even the raunchiest microcephallic jerk among them would say
that stupid statement. This is only created for external consumption
of the useful fools, like you. You are a parrot.
The reality matches Dan's report.
Nope.
It disproves Dan's lies.
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The meetings of mass organizations
take place at least weekly and more often prior to am election.
and the "mass organizations" and al meetings are controlled by the regime.
But it doesn't even make sense. There have been many dictatorships in
the world and they don't set up thousands and thousands of public
meetings all over their countries. If it were controlled by the
committee to defend the revolution they'd have a tremendously hard job
of it with so many people meeting and talking to each other.
(snip)
the meetings are part of the control system.
People are pressed in to showing up and can't express themselves
anyway.
So attendance is enforced to reinforce social control.

PL
f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
2007-11-27 13:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Cuba is more democratic than the US ever was.
I lived among Communists. I know well how the express in private.
Not even the raunchiest microcephallic jerk among them would say
that stupid statement. This is only created for external
consumption of the useful fools, like you. You are a parrot.
The reality matches Dan's report.
Nope.
It disproves Dan's lies.
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The meetings of mass organizations
take place at least weekly and more often prior to am election.
and the "mass organizations" and al meetings are controlled by the regime.
But it doesn't even make sense. There have been many
dictatorships in
the world and they don't set up thousands and thousands of public
meetings all over their countries. If it were controlled by the
committee to defend the revolution they'd have a tremendously hard
job of it with so many people meeting and talking to each other.
(snip)
the meetings are part of the control system.
People are pressed in to showing up and can't express themselves
anyway.
So attendance is enforced to reinforce social control.
But it would be much siompler for a dictator simply not to do that.
The last thing a dictator wants is having his, (it's usually a him),
subjects meeting and talking to each other. When you have so many,
literally thousands of meetings at the community level all across the
country with no exceptions, it would be impossible to control. The
only answer is that this is a grassroots, partticipatory democracy.
--
--
Regards, Fred
<http://www.fredwilliams.ca/thesecretofmoney.html>
PL
2007-11-27 20:00:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Cuba is more democratic than the US ever was.
I lived among Communists. I know well how the express in private.
Not even the raunchiest microcephallic jerk among them would say
that stupid statement. This is only created for external
consumption of the useful fools, like you. You are a parrot.
The reality matches Dan's report.
Nope.
It disproves Dan's lies.
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The meetings of mass organizations
take place at least weekly and more often prior to am election.
and the "mass organizations" and al meetings are controlled by the regime.
But it doesn't even make sense. There have been many dictatorships in
the world and they don't set up thousands and thousands of public
meetings all over their countries. If it were controlled by the
committee to defend the revolution they'd have a tremendously hard
job of it with so many people meeting and talking to each other.
(snip)
the meetings are part of the control system.
People are pressed in to showing up and can't express themselves
anyway.
So attendance is enforced to reinforce social control.
But it would be much siompler for a dictator simply not to do that.
actually, it makes a lot of sense to do that to reinforce control.
In the camps of Pol Pot people were always dragged of to "meetings" to
ensure "cohesion".
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The last thing a dictator wants is having his, (it's usually a him),
subjects meeting and talking to each other.
but then the "subjects" are allowed to freely express themselves and his
"chivatos" (informers) have an opportunity to look for dissent
(non-attendance or talking back)
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
When you have so many,
literally thousands of meetings at the community level all across the
country with no exceptions, it would be impossible to control.
Thank the Stasi for the good training they gave to the Cubans CDR.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/cdr.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/totalitarian_system.htm
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The
only answer is that this is a grassroots, partticipatory democracy.
Nope.
that is the answer that is completely excluded as Cuba has no freedom of
speech.
A pre-requisite for democracy.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/democracy.htm

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-30 05:26:00 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 27, 3:00 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snip]
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
But it doesn't even make sense. There have been many
dictatorships in
the world and they don't set up thousands and thousands of public
meetings all over their countries. If it were controlled by the
committee to defend the revolution they'd have a tremendously hard
job of it with so many people meeting and talking to each other.
(snip)
the meetings are part of the control system.
People are pressed in to showing up and can't express themselves
anyway.
So attendance is enforced to reinforce social control.
But it would be much siompler for a dictator simply not to do that.
actually, it makes a lot of sense to do that to reinforce control.
In the camps of Pol Pot
You mean the regime that the US allied itself with in its war against
Viet Nam? You must love them!
Post by PL
people were always dragged of to "meetings" to
ensure "cohesion".
Contrary to your propaganda, Cuba is not some concentration camp.
People are not "dragged" to meetings there.
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The last thing a dictator wants is having his, (it's usually a him),
subjects meeting and talking to each other.
but then the "subjects" are allowed to freely express themselves and his
"chivatos" (informers) have an opportunity to look for dissent
(non-attendance or talking back)
Let us see even one documented case of anyone being punished for
"talking back" at a public meeting (credible sources only, please).

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-30 11:12:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
But it doesn't even make sense. There have been many
dictatorships in
the world and they don't set up thousands and thousands of public
meetings all over their countries. If it were controlled by the
committee to defend the revolution they'd have a tremendously hard
job of it with so many people meeting and talking to each other.
(snip)
the meetings are part of the control system.
People are pressed in to showing up and can't express themselves
anyway.
So attendance is enforced to reinforce social control.
But it would be much siompler for a dictator simply not to do that.
actually, it makes a lot of sense to do that to reinforce control.
In the camps of Pol Pot
You mean the regime that the US allied itself with in its war against
Viet Nam? You must love them!
Nope.
Unlike you I hate dictatorships.
The Pol Pot regime was created by the communist block, was inspired by
communist ideology and used communist tactics.
That is what led to the disaster Mr. Hypocrite.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
people were always dragged of to "meetings" to
ensure "cohesion".
Contrary to your propaganda, Cuba is not some concentration camp.
People are not "dragged" to meetings there.
they just are sanctioned like threatened with losing a house, job or
education you mean.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The last thing a dictator wants is having his, (it's usually a him),
subjects meeting and talking to each other.
but then the "subjects" are allowed to freely express themselves and his
"chivatos" (informers) have an opportunity to look for dissent
(non-attendance or talking back)
Let us see even one documented case of anyone being punished for
"talking back" at a public meeting (credible sources only, please).
Poor desperate Dan already prepares himself to call ANY source that I
post as "not credible".
Get real Dan.
Even not attending can get in trouble.
You don't even have to talk back: not showing up is enough.

On February 1, officials held a public meeting in which they
criticized Yero for not voting for Communist candidates and for not
participating in the
local CDR; according to press reports, she received an eviction notice
the following day.
http://pcmlp.socleg.ox.ac.uk/transition/issue07/cuba.htm

No comunismo, no trabajo
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/19917

Niegan teléfono a trabajador por no participar en actividades del CDR
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/14746

PL
M***@hotmail.com
2007-11-30 20:06:27 UTC
Permalink
PL,

Excellent summary. Let's see what Nazi Dan says.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
But it doesn't even make sense. There have been many
dictatorships in
the world and they don't set up thousands and thousands of public
meetings all over their countries. If it were controlled by the
committee to defend the revolution they'd have a tremendously hard
job of it with so many people meeting and talking to each other.
(snip)
the meetings are part of the control system.
People are pressed in to showing up and can't express themselves
anyway.
So attendance is enforced to reinforce social control.
But it would be much siompler for a dictator simply not to do that.
actually, it makes a lot of sense to do that to reinforce control.
In the camps of Pol Pot
You mean the regime that the US allied itself with in its war against
Viet Nam? You must love them!
Nope.
Unlike you I hate dictatorships.
The Pol Pot regime was created by the communist block, was inspired by
communist ideology and used communist tactics.
That is what led to the disaster Mr. Hypocrite.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
people were always dragged of to "meetings" to
ensure "cohesion".
Contrary to your propaganda, Cuba is not some concentration camp.
People are not "dragged" to meetings there.
they just are sanctioned like threatened with losing a house, job or
education you mean.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The last thing a dictator wants is having his, (it's usually a him),
subjects meeting and talking to each other.
but then the "subjects" are allowed to freely express themselves and his
"chivatos" (informers) have an opportunity to look for dissent
(non-attendance or talking back)
Let us see even one documented case of anyone being punished for
"talking back" at a public meeting (credible sources only, please).
Poor desperate Dan already prepares himself to call ANY source that I
post as "not credible".
Get real Dan.
Even not attending can get in trouble.
You don't even have to talk back: not showing up is enough.
On February 1, officials held a public meeting in which they
criticized Yero for not voting for Communist candidates and for not
participating in the
local CDR; according to press reports, she received an eviction notice
the following day.http://pcmlp.socleg.ox.ac.uk/transition/issue07/cuba.htm
No comunismo, no trabajohttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/19917
Niegan teléfono a trabajador por no participar en actividades del CDRhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/14746
PL- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Dan Christensen
2007-12-01 06:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
But it doesn't even make sense. There have been many
dictatorships in
the world and they don't set up thousands and thousands of public
meetings all over their countries. If it were controlled by the
committee to defend the revolution they'd have a tremendously hard
job of it with so many people meeting and talking to each other.
(snip)
the meetings are part of the control system.
People are pressed in to showing up and can't express themselves
anyway.
So attendance is enforced to reinforce social control.
But it would be much siompler for a dictator simply not to do that.
actually, it makes a lot of sense to do that to reinforce control.
In the camps of Pol Pot
You mean the regime that the US allied itself with in its war against
Viet Nam? You must love them!
Nope.
Unlike you I hate dictatorships.
You will support anyone and anything that will advance the interests
of your political masters, be it dictatorships, torture, murder or
genocide.
Post by PL
The Pol Pot regime was created by the communist block, was inspired by
communist ideology and used communist tactics.
They were US allies in the Vietnam War. Like Osama Bin Ladin in other
wars against communism. Whatever it takes, right, Mr. Lobbyist?
Post by PL
That is what led to the disaster Mr. Hypocrite.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
people were always dragged of to "meetings" to
ensure "cohesion".
Contrary to your propaganda, Cuba is not some concentration camp.
People are not "dragged" to meetings there.
they just are sanctioned like threatened with losing a house, job or
education you mean.
STILL waiting for your proof.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The last thing a dictator wants is having his, (it's usually a him),
subjects meeting and talking to each other.
but then the "subjects" are allowed to freely express themselves and his
"chivatos" (informers) have an opportunity to look for dissent
(non-attendance or talking back)
Let us see even one documented case of anyone being punished for
"talking back" at a public meeting (credible sources only, please).
Poor desperate Dan already prepares himself to call ANY source that I
post as "not credible".
Get real Dan.
Even not attending can get in trouble.
You don't even have to talk back: not showing up is enough.
On February 1, officials held a public meeting in which they
criticized Yero for not voting for Communist candidates and for not
participating in the
local CDR; according to press reports, she received an eviction notice
the following day.http://pcmlp.socleg.ox.ac.uk/transition/issue07/cuba.htm
Not this one again. You must really enjoy getting your butt kicked!

According to Amnesty International, she was being evicted because it
was believed to have abandoned her apartment. Her eviction was
successfully appealed when it was proven otherwise. The eviction did
not go through. But you knew this, didn't you, Mr. Lobbyist? Just
thought you would keep that essential fact from readers, didn't you?
Post by PL
No comunismo, no trabajohttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/19917
Niegan teléfono a trabajador por no participar en actividades del CDRhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/14746
Both from CubaNet, a US government-funded propaganda organ operating
out of Miami. Remember, I requested credible sources only. If this is
really the best you can do, you might as well concede the point.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-12-01 18:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
But it doesn't even make sense. There have been many
dictatorships in
the world and they don't set up thousands and thousands of public
meetings all over their countries. If it were controlled by the
committee to defend the revolution they'd have a tremendously hard
job of it with so many people meeting and talking to each other.
(snip)
the meetings are part of the control system.
People are pressed in to showing up and can't express themselves
anyway.
So attendance is enforced to reinforce social control.
But it would be much siompler for a dictator simply not to do that.
actually, it makes a lot of sense to do that to reinforce control.
In the camps of Pol Pot
You mean the regime that the US allied itself with in its war against
Viet Nam? You must love them!
Nope.
Unlike you I hate dictatorships.
You will support anyone and anything that will advance the interests
of your political masters,
unlike you I have no "masters" Dn.
Post by Dan Christensen
be it dictatorships, torture, murder or
genocide.
actually you are describing yourself here Mr. Hypocrite Propagandist and
unlike you I can prove it with quotes.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
The Pol Pot regime was created by the communist block, was inspired by
communist ideology and used communist tactics.
They were US allies in the Vietnam War.
Get real Dan.
The abuses were committed way before the Vietnamese invaded them.
The abuses were inspired by their communist ideology.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
That is what led to the disaster Mr. Hypocrite.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
people were always dragged of to "meetings" to
ensure "cohesion".
Contrary to your propaganda, Cuba is not some concentration camp.
People are not "dragged" to meetings there.
they just are sanctioned like threatened with losing a house, job or
education you mean.
STILL waiting for your proof.
Posted and snipped by you as usual
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The last thing a dictator wants is having his, (it's usually a him),
subjects meeting and talking to each other.
but then the "subjects" are allowed to freely express themselves and his
"chivatos" (informers) have an opportunity to look for dissent
(non-attendance or talking back)
Let us see even one documented case of anyone being punished for
"talking back" at a public meeting (credible sources only, please).
Poor desperate Dan already prepares himself to call ANY source that I
post as "not credible".
Get real Dan.
Even not attending can get in trouble.
You don't even have to talk back: not showing up is enough.
On February 1, officials held a public meeting in which they
criticized Yero for not voting for Communist candidates and for not
participating in the
local CDR; according to press reports, she received an eviction notice
the following day.http://pcmlp.socleg.ox.ac.uk/transition/issue07/cuba.htm
Not this one again. You must really enjoy getting your butt kicked!
Nope.
your but is kicked as it confirms exactly what I said
Post by Dan Christensen
According to Amnesty International, she was being evicted because it
was believed to have abandoned her apartment. (snip)
That was the excuse used and people from her neighborhood had to support
her showing that the excuse was a lie.
But thanks for confirming that sanctions are applied even for merely not
attending.

The link Hypocrite Propagandist Dan Christensen never gave as he wanted
to hide the full facts.

On February 1, officials held a public meeting in which they criticized
Yero for not voting for Communist candidates and for not participating
in the local CDR; according to press reports, she received an eviction
notice the following day.

http://pcmlp.socleg.ox.ac.uk/transition/issue07/cuba.htm

On February 1, 1999, the police and housing officials called her
neighbors to a public meeting, where it appears, they declared that Mrs.
Sara Yero had not voted for Communist Party candidates and did not
belong to the local Committee for the Defense of the Revolution. The
next day, Margarita Sara Yero received a written eviction notice.

Human Rights Watch/Americas, op. cit., World Report 2000, p. 28.
http://www.cidh.oas.org/annualrep/99eng/Chapter4.htm


In a few cases, the government used housing regulations to harass
independent reporters.
In January 1999, housing authorities in Santiago notified Margarita Sara
Yero, the director of the Turquino Correspondence of the Independent
Press Agency of Cuba (Agencia de Prensa Independiente de Cuba), that she
would be evicted from her home, where she had resided for thirty-five
years. The officials claimed that she had abandoned her home, but
several neighbors confirmed her residency.

On February 1, 1999, police and housing officials called her neighbors
to a public meeting, where they reportedly stated that Yero had not cast
votes for Communist Party candidates and did not belong to the local
Committee for the Defense of the Revolution (Comité para la Defensa de
la Revolución).

The next day, according to press reports, Yero received a written
eviction notice.
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k/americas-04.htm

Eviction

Eviction is another less common method of repression used by the
authorities to suppress dissidence.
Victims are ordered to leave their homes and reportedly sometimes
transferred to crowded shelters for the homeless. Amnesty International
is concerned that incidents in which eviction is threatened or carried
out allegedly for political motives or as a means of suppressing freedom
of expression, association and assembly undermine respect for the
principles articulated in article 12 of the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights.

This article states that ''no one shall be subjected to arbitrary
interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to
attacks upon his honour and reputation,'' and other related rights.

For example, in August 1999, as well as being temporarily detained,
opposition activist Ramón Humberto Colás Castillo, was evicted from his
home in Las Tunas province, along with his wife, Berta Mexidor Vázquez,
and their two children.

Ramón Colás and Berta Mexidor, who were both founders of the first
independent library in Cuba, had lived in their home for 13 years before
being told they were illegal occupants. According to Berta Mexidor,the
authorities removed all their belongings into lorries in spite of their
protests and told them they were

been moved to another area, some 60 kilometres from their home. They
were later taken to a military camp where some 300 people were
reportedly housed.

According to reports, the family are currently staying with relatives.

In January 1999 Margarita Sara Yero, an independent journalist working
for Cuba Press in Santiago de Cuba province, was reportedly informed
that she had to vacate the home where she had lived for some 35 years.

The reason given by the authorities was reportedly that she ''had
abandoned her home and was the owner of another''. Margarita Yero's
lawyer then wrote to the Dirección Municipal de Vivienda, Municipal
Housing Office, with signatures from neighbours confirming that she had
never abandoned her home.

However, on 2 February 1999 she reportedly received a reply to the
letter stating that she would be evicted on 4 February 1999. Due to help
from various local organizations and a statement by an old friend who
confirmed that she had been living in that place since 1963, the
eviction was not carried out.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250042000?open&of=ENG-CUB

For more see www.cubaverdad.net
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
No comunismo, no trabajo http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/19917
Niegan teléfono a trabajador por no participar en actividades del CDR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/14746
Both from CubaNet,
(snip)

A source that escape the regime's information blockade, indeed.
As usual when you can't refute the facts you try to slander the source.
You should know by now that that backfires.

No comunismo, no trabajo
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/19917

Niegan teléfono a trabajador por no participar en actividades del CDR
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/14746

Confirmed by other sources from Cuba:

ELECCIONES CUBANAS OBLIGADAS
2007-10-31.
Julio Beltrán Iglesias, Periodista Independiente, Agencia Jóvenes Sin
Censura

Al parecer en la falsa electoral que el Gobierno mantiene en Cuba,
obligan a los ciudadanos a participar pues en varios lugares de La
Habana los presidentes de los Comités de Defensa de la Revolución, CDR,
les han tocado las puertas a personas para exigirles que vayan a votar,
cosa esta que debe ser voluntaria.

Podemos mencionar, por ejemplo, el caso de Alejandro José Botello. El
presidente del CDR, Alexeis, del reparto Ponce, Municipio Arroyo
Naranjo, lo visitó varias veces exigiéndole que fuera a votar, que eso
no era voluntario, que era más bien obligado, o sino tendría problemas.

Alejandro José Botello le manifestó que él no cooperaba con la dictadura
y no creía en la falsa electoral que el Gobierno cubano se encaprichaba
en mantener por más de cuarenta años.

Esto le trajo como consecuencia la visita inesperada a su domicilio del
oficial de la Seguridad del Estado Leonardo, quien amenazara y ofendiera
al señor Botello, dejándole muy claro que su actitud le podía costar
unos cuantos años de la limitada libertad que disfrutan los cubanos,
informó el señor Botello.

http://www.miscelaneasdecuba.net/web/article.asp?artID=12438
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/34466

Imponen decenas de obligaciones a familias matanceras
Por Oscar Sánchez Madan

Bitácora Cubana, 3 de abril de 2006 - Matanzas

La organización oficialista, Comité de Defensa de la Revolución (CDR),
está entregando a cada familia matancera un documento en el que se
establecen decenas de obligaciones y proyecciones que afectan
sensiblemente a la ciudadanía.

En dicho documento titulado "Mensajes de compromiso de la familia
cederista", las autoridades gubernamentales le imponen a los ciudadanos
mayores de edad obligaciones tales como: entregar materias primas
generadas por las viviendas, pagar la cotización mensual de la
organización, participar en la limpieza y el embellecimiento del barrio,
participar en los trabajos voluntarios y en las actividades
político-ideológicas que se convoquen, donar sangre en las instituciones
del estado e inscribir a los jóvenes nacido en el 1990 en el Servicio
Militar Obligatorio.

Asimismo, se les prohíbe a las familias, entre otras cosas, participar
en juegos de azar, usar en las viviendas antenas satelitales, vender o
comprar viviendas, o, alquilar las propias al margen del control
estatal; usar incorrectamente los medios electrodomésticos vendidos por
el gobierno.

De momento esas imposiciones, las cuales forman parte de la legislación
oficial vigente, se chequearán, según el documento, públicamente en
asambleas de afiliados durante los meses de abril, julio y septiembre
del año en curso.

Los CDR son una organización creada por Fidel Castro en el año 1960 para
defender la llamada dictadura del proletariado mediante la vigilancia
revolucionaria, conocer qué hace y a que se dedica la gente es su
principal misión, así lo expresan sus estatutos.

http://www.bitacoracubana.com/desdecuba/portada2.php?id=1741
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/21682

Chivatería, Denuncia, Represión a lo cubano
Por Eduardo Cancio González


El pasado 28 de Septiembre cumplió 44 años una de las organizaciones de más
oscuro proceder en la triste historia de la revolución cubana: Los Comités
de Defensa de la Revolución. Cuando en igual fecha de 1961, Fidel Castro
llamaba a su fundación, no sabía el pueblo cubano, en su embriaguez de verde
olivo y barbas, que asistía al nacimiento de un diabólico mecanismo de
persecución y vigilancia que con el pasar de los años se convertiría en el
pilar fundamental del régimen.

A la temprana edad de 14 años, es invitado al convite. Negarse a participar,
es cuando menos, invalidar por siempre la maldita casilla de las
organizaciones de masas, que cual pesadilla, valora su escalafón de entrega
al sistema, para cualquier formulario o planilla que usted procure, en la
búsqueda de estudio o trabajo. Ser miembro garantiza además el beneficio de
la integración revolucionaria o la legitimidad de la máscara. La filosofía
de la organización es simple: conjugar el verbo vigilar en cada persona (más
eficientes las del plural) para despojarlo de su dignidad e intimidad. De
hecho, uno termina espiándose a sí mismo y reprochándose día a día, al
amparo de un miedo bien fundado, el no asistir a una reunión, no ir a un
trabajo voluntario o haber faltado a una guardia cederista.

Los CDR esconden, bajo una fachada humanista y supuestamente solidaria, de
donaciones de sangre, recogida de materia prima y campañas de vacunación, un
proceder al servicio de la policía política, que pone su futuro o su suerte
en manos de incontables verificaciones y chequeos para mantener actualizado
el archivo de los traidores. El presidente de la cuadra decide incluso si
usted esta apto o no para salir del país, amén de que se convierte en
guardián de sus miserias para poder arrebatárselas una vez se apropian de su
domicilio. No por gusto el mal llamado Alcalde de La Habana de hoy fue por
varios años Coordinador Nacional de la organización.

Habría que reconocer, en aras de la objetividad, lo efectivo del invento,
copiado muy bien de las prácticas hitlerianas. Miles de cubanos han pagado
cárcel, recibido humillaciones, actos de repudio y golpizas por parte de las
turbas enardecidas. Lo verdaderamente condenable es haberse aprovechado del
sentimiento solidario de nuestro pueblo para convertir en chivatos al
viejito jubilado, el ama de casa o el bodeguero de la esquina. No por gusto
cada 27 en la noche se espera un aniversario más de la gloriosa efeméride.
Curiosamente el festejo es una muestra palpable del desastre. Al son de dos
botellas de ron barato y una olla común, donde se cocina el pobre aporte de
cada uno y la contribución del gobierno (curiosamente se reparte un hueso
pelado de ternilla de res para cada CDR, que supone la matanza y la duda por
la falta de la fibra) se reúne la pobre gente a celebrar o quizás, dar
gracias al padre por permitir llevar una vasija del mejunje para el almuerzo
familiar de mañana. Y entre la pálida concurrencia al festín se escurre el
desagradable olor de la leña quemada en pleno centro de la calle, preludio
del discurso clausura del 28, donde se nos recordará a todos cuan estúpidos
fuimos 44 años atrás.

Mucho habrá que hacer por la Cuba de mañana. Entre lo primero, desbaratar
esta organización represiva, para devolverle al cubano la noble mirada del
vecino sin el doblez moral que representa el veneno de unos ojos y oídos que
le puede cercenar el mañana.



http://www.elveraz.com/articulo156.htm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/14789

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Thanks for again admitting defeat by resorting to your personal insults.
Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.

We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:

"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth
fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In
this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.

.......

These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this
time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to send
death
squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and

Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified
under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca


Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.

That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.



As I said comrade Dan: every time you post that lie about me I post
the
truth about you.



Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that time
prove).

This was your false claim: "Taking a little break from arm-twisting
in
Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"

Link:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8



Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your
lies.



Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones
below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith

"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he
does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting of your
beloved embargo."

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en


HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith
said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United
States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.

''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm

You can enter after a free registration.



Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823



YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.

Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.



Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted
below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same report
that:



"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html



Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in
to it)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report, are they?

Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED)?

"in 1.

"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International
considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of conscience(2) and calls
for
their immediate and unconditional release."

In 8.1

" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously
named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.

" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or
imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their rights to
freedom of
expression, association and assembly."



and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
lying website:



" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on
Cuba in
humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"



that sentence:

1. isn't in the report

2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report



You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.



What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:



"Amnesty International calls on the United States government

- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the
embargo.

- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.

- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of
its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.

The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that
places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the forefront
of its
concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident
Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Chuck
2007-12-01 14:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Que payaso este pobre hombre!

Se ha convertido en un pelotudo global (el hazmerreir del mundo)

Chuck

==

En un encendido discurso ante miles de seguidores en Caracas, el presidente
Hugo Chávez amenazó ayer con suspender el envío de petróleo a Estados Unidos
si la oposición denuncia un fraude y sale a las calles tras el referéndum de
mañana, y dijo que quienes voten por el no estarán votando por su par
norteamericano, George W. Bush.

También advirtió que podría nacionalizar los bancos españoles en Venezuela
si el rey Juan Carlos no le pide disculpas por su ya famoso "¿Por qué no te
callas?".

....
Como una estrella de rock

Había llegado al lugar como una verdadera estrella de rock. Subido a un
camión y con los brazos en alto, cruzó la desbordada avenida Bolívar en
medio de los gritos de miles de personas que lo habían esperado por más de
ocho horas con sus pancartas y sus chavecitos (muñecos de Chávez) en alto.

Después empezó el show: Chávez bailó, tocó la batería y cantó una canción de
cuna con uno de sus nietos en brazos, antes de lanzar sus amenazas contra
los "enemigos de la revolución".

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/EdicionImpresa/exterior/nota.asp?nota_id=967228&pid=3589430&toi=5257
Fortinbras
2007-12-01 21:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck
Que payaso este pobre hombre!
Se ha convertido en un pelotudo global (el hazmerreir del mundo)
Chuck
Ese es solo un punto de vista tuyo. Pero es coherente que se preparen
los venezolanos para una reaccion desesperada de los cipayos DESPUES
DEL TRIUNFO CHAVEZ.

Saludos cordiales

Fortinbras

La alternativa es clara QUIEN NO VOTA POR CHAVEZ, ELIGE A BUSH!
Chuck
2007-12-01 22:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fortinbras
Post by Chuck
Que payaso este pobre hombre!
Se ha convertido en un pelotudo global (el hazmerreir del mundo)
Chuck
Chavez ya ni a los negros convence.

Desde que lo hizo callar el Rey los venezolanos no lo quieren escuchar mas.

Se vote lo que se vote tiene el tiempo contado.

saludos cordiales,

Chuck
Post by Fortinbras
Ese es solo un punto de vista tuyo. Pero es coherente que se preparen
los venezolanos para una reaccion desesperada de los cipayos DESPUES
DEL TRIUNFO CHAVEZ.
Saludos cordiales
Fortinbras
La alternativa es clara QUIEN NO VOTA POR CHAVEZ, ELIGE A BUSH!
PL
2007-11-25 22:26:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Pearson
Mister Christensen,
I love this part mention on your website about Democracy and Elections
"While the Communist Party of Cuba is the only legally sanctioned
party there, it plays no role in the electoral process. By law, it can
neither nominate nor, in any way, endorse any individual candidates"
That is so telling and tipical... Obviosly you don't understand what
Democracy means.
It means the majority rules.
Nope.
It means the regime rules as it denies freedom of speech and uses repressive
laws control the population.
Cuba is more democratic than the US ever was.
(snip)

Cuba isn't "democratic" as it has no freedom of speech.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"Candidates" are "selected" in public "votes" with agents of the Cuban
regime present to record and punish dissent.
Typically, the only people present are those living in the
neigbourhood.
(snip)

They "represent" those that are imposed on the people as there is no freedom
of expression and as snitches are present in all meetings
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
No dissent is allowed.
You mean no traitors are likely to be nominated by their neighbors.
what you call "traitors" are those that disagree with the system.
Thanks for confirming I was right.
there is no freedom of expression in Cuba.
No democracy.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"Candidates" are imposed at the local level and for
the higher levels (national) subject to approval by the regime's "mass
organizations" that have a veto.
You would much prefer that United Fruit, AT&T or the CIA to have the
veto
Nope.
I want Cubans to be able to express themselves freely voting in anonymous
elections (all can stand and all can vote freely) for candidates that can
put themselves forward freely
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
http://www.cubaverdad.net/elections_in_cuba.htm
But this is just your lying website,
(snip)

as anyone can see: facts.


Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:



Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.

We both know you can't.



Try something like this:



Quote:

"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well worth
fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures. In
this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.

.......

These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At this
time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to send death
squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and

Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally justified
under the circumstances."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



Unquote.



You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty International,
Genocide Watch, ..........



Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.

That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.



As I said comrade Dan: every time you post that lie about me I post the
truth about you.



Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that time prove).

This was your false claim: "Taking a little break from arm-twisting in
Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"

Link:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8



Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.



Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the ones
below:



YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith

"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online) that he
does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting of your
beloved embargo."

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en



HIS own words:



'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.

''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm

You can enter after a free registration.



Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823



YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.

Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.



Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report quoted
below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same report that:



"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html



Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the trade
sanctions in that report, are they?

Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from these
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED)?



"in 1.

"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty International
considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of conscience(2) and calls for
their immediate and unconditional release."



In 8.1

" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners previously
named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.



" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is detained or
imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their rights to freedom of
expression, association and assembly."



and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on your
lying website:



" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba in
humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"



that sentence:

1. isn't in the report

2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report



You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT LIE.



What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:



"Amnesty International calls on the United States government

- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen the
embargo.

- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.

- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the forefront of
its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."



Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.

The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy that
places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the forefront of its
concerns".



See:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.



PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-30 05:01:44 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 25, 5:26 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"Candidates" are "selected" in public "votes" with agents of the Cuban
regime present to record and punish dissent.
Typically, the only people present are those living in the
neigbourhood.
(snip)
They "represent" those that are imposed on the people as there is no freedom
of expression and as snitches are present in all meetings
Unlike the US system, in Cuba it is no one's interest to impose
candidates on anyone as voters in national elections have the right to
reject ALL candidates on the ballot, voting for "none of the above,"
thereby calling for a new slate of candidates and another vote. Only
those supported by the majority can be elected. US voters can only
dream of such freedom of expression!
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
No dissent is allowed.
You mean no traitors are likely to be nominated by their neighbors.
what you call "traitors" are those that disagree with the system.
[snip]

I mean those in league with a hostile foreign power -- your political
masters -- that for decades have imposed genocidal trade sanctions on
their fellow Cubans. Understandably, being associated in any way with
this bloodthirsty regime amounts to political suicide in Cuba.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"Candidates" are imposed at the local level and for
the higher levels (national) subject to approval by the regime's "mass
organizations" that have a veto.
You would much prefer that United Fruit, AT&T or the CIA to have the
veto
Nope.
I want Cubans to be able to express themselves freely voting in anonymous
elections (all can stand and all can vote freely) for candidates that can
put themselves forward freely
[snip]

Bullshit. Under Section 206 of your beloved Helms-Burton Act, it won't
matter what kind elections they hold, not even US-style money-based
elections would do, if the outcome was not to the liking of extremists
in Miami and Washington. Under HB, the genocide is to continue until
such time as socialism is outlawed and a capitalist regime is
installed in Havana. The Cuban people are to have no choice in the
matter, even though their socialist system, despite all your best
efforts, continues to provide the best health care and education
systems in the region. So much for your supposed commitment to
democracy, eh, Mr. Lobbyist? I guess this is what you call democracy
mafia-style! (See featured article, "What is the real purpose of the
US embargo?" at my website.)

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-30 10:27:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"Candidates" are "selected" in public "votes" with agents of the Cuban
regime present to record and punish dissent.
Typically, the only people present are those living in the
neigbourhood.
(snip)
They "represent" those that are imposed on the people as there is no freedom
of expression and as snitches are present in all meetings
Unlike the US system, in Cuba it is no one's interest to impose
candidates on anyone as voters in national elections have the right to
reject ALL candidates on the ballot,
(snip)

which won't change anything as the new "candidates" will be "selected
in the same way.
There is no way to escape the complete control.
Cubans know that.
Only a secret ballot with candidates that can freely put themselves
forward can overcome that.

http://www.cubaverdad.net/elections_in_cuba.htm
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
No dissent is allowed.
You mean no traitors are likely to be nominated by their neighbors.
what you call "traitors" are those that disagree with the system.
[snip]
I mean those in league with a hostile foreign power --
(snip)

Nope.
demanding respect of human rights.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"Candidates" are imposed at the local level and for
the higher levels (national) subject to approval by the regime's "mass
organizations" that have a veto.
You would much prefer that United Fruit, AT&T or the CIA to have the
veto
Nope.
I want Cubans to be able to express themselves freely voting in anonymous
elections (all can stand and all can vote freely) for candidates that can
put themselves forward freely
[snip]
Bullshit. Under Section 206 of your beloved Helms-Burton Act, it won't
matter what kind elections
False.
That law demands free and fair democratic elections.
It goes against no socio-economic and political system except the
abusive current Stalinist system.
Anyway: it only asks for substantive moves, not complete achievement.


Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:



Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.

We both know you can't.



Try something like this:



Quote:

"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth
fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In
this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.

.......

These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this
time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to send
death
squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and

Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified
under the circumstances."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



Unquote.



You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........



Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.

That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.



As I said comrade Dan: every time you post that lie about me I post
the
truth about you.



Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that time
prove).

This was your false claim: "Taking a little break from arm-twisting
in
Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"

Link:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8



Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your
lies.



Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones
below:



YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith

"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he
does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting of your
beloved embargo."

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en



HIS own words:



'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith
said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United
States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.

''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm

You can enter after a free registration.



Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823



YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.

Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.



Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted
below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same report
that:



"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html



Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in
to it)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report, are they?

Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED)?



"in 1.

"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International
considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of conscience(2) and calls
for
their immediate and unconditional release."



In 8.1

" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously
named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.



" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or
imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their rights to
freedom of
expression, association and assembly."



and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
lying website:



" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on
Cuba in
humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"



that sentence:

1. isn't in the report

2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report



You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.



What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:



"Amnesty International calls on the United States government

- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the
embargo.

- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.

- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of
its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."



Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.

The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that
places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the forefront
of its
concerns".



See:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident
Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.



PL
Dan Christensen
2007-12-01 06:11:29 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 30, 5:27 am, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Unlike the US system, in Cuba it is no one's interest to impose
candidates on anyone as voters in national elections have the right to
reject ALL candidates on the ballot, voting for "none of the above," thereby calling for a new slate of candidates and another vote. Only those supported by the majority can be elected. US voters can only dream of such freedom of expression!
(snip)
which won't change anything as the new "candidates" will be "selected
in the same way.
[snip]

It will keep changing the candidates until an electable slate of
candidates is put forward. (See "Democracy in Cuba" at my website.)
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
I want Cubans to be able to express themselves freely voting in anonymous
elections (all can stand and all can vote freely) for candidates that can
put themselves forward freely
[snip]
Bullshit. Under Section 206 of your beloved Helms-Burton Act, it won't
matter what kind elections they hold, not even US-style money-based elections would do, if the outcome was not to the liking of extremists in Miami and Washington. Under HB, the genocide is to continue until such time as socialism is outlawed and a capitalist regime is installed in Havana. The Cuban people are to have no choice in the matter, even though their socialist system, despite all your best efforts, continues to provide the best health care and education systems in the region.
False.
A blatant lie.
Post by PL
That law demands free and fair democratic elections.
It demands a capitalist regime in Havana and an end to socialism, or
the genocide will continue. The Cuban people would have NO CHOICE in
the matter. Can't have them making the same "mistake" twice, right,
Mr. Lobbyist. You are such a hypocrite!

See featured article, "What is the real purpose of the US embargo?" at
my website.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-12-01 16:40:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Unlike the US system, in Cuba it is no one's interest to impose
candidates on anyone as voters in national elections have the right to
reject ALL candidates on the ballot, voting for "none of the above,"
thereby calling for a new slate of candidates and another vote. Only
those supported by the majority can be elected. US voters can only
dream of such freedom of expression!
(snip)
which won't change anything as the new "candidates" will be "selected
in the same way.
[snip]
It will keep changing the candidates until an electable slate of
candidates is put forward.
Nope.
The system esnures that merely a new set of clones will be selected.
Free and fair elections are only possible with freedom of speech in a system
where a secret ballot selects candidates that can freely put themselves
forward without being vetted by any regime.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
I want Cubans to be able to express themselves freely voting in anonymous
elections (all can stand and all can vote freely) for candidates that can
put themselves forward freely
[snip]
Bullshit. Under Section 206 of your beloved Helms-Burton Act, it won't
matter what kind elections they hold, not even US-style money-based
elections would do, if the outcome was not to the liking of extremists
in Miami and Washington. Under HB, the genocide is to continue until
such time as socialism is outlawed and a capitalist regime is installed
in Havana. The Cuban people are to have no choice in the matter, even
though their socialist system, despite all your best efforts, continues
to provide the best health care and education systems in the region.
False.
A blatant lie.
Nope.
A fact.
First: there is no "genocide" and you are going to prove that by failing to
post even ONE quote from a reputable organization referring to the trade
sanctions as susch.
Secondly: socialims isn't outlawed at all. Stalinist communism is what needs
to be moved away from. A Swedish social democracy for example fits the bill.
Thirdly: the main issue is respect of rights.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
That law demands free and fair democratic elections.
It demands a capitalist regime
Nope.
It asks for free and fair election and a substantial move towards the
recognition of rights.
Any system beyond the dictatorial one will fit that bill.


Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:



Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.

We both know you can't.



Try something like this:



Quote:

"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well worth
fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures. In
this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.

.......

These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At this
time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to send death
squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and

Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally justified
under the circumstances."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



Unquote.



You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty International,
Genocide Watch, ..........



Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.

That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.



As I said comrade Dan: every time you post that lie about me I post the
truth about you.



Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that time prove).

This was your false claim: "Taking a little break from arm-twisting in
Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"

Link:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8



Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.



Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the ones
below:



YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith

"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online) that he
does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting of your
beloved embargo."

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en



HIS own words:



'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.

''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm

You can enter after a free registration.



Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823



YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.

Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.



Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report quoted
below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same report that:



"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html



Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the trade
sanctions in that report, are they?

Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from these
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED)?



"in 1.

"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty International
considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of conscience(2) and calls for
their immediate and unconditional release."



In 8.1

" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners previously
named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.



" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is detained or
imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their rights to freedom of
expression, association and assembly."



and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on your
lying website:



" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba in
humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"



that sentence:

1. isn't in the report

2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report



You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT LIE.



What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:



"Amnesty International calls on the United States government

- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen the
embargo.

- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.

- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the forefront of
its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."



Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.

The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy that
places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the forefront of its
concerns".



See:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.



PL
f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
2007-12-01 21:03:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Unlike the US system, in Cuba it is no one's interest to impose
candidates on anyone as voters in national elections have the
right to reject ALL candidates on the ballot, voting for "none of
the above," thereby calling for a new slate of candidates and
another vote. Only those supported by the majority can be elected.
US voters can only dream of such freedom of expression!
(snip)
which won't change anything as the new "candidates" will be
"selected in the same way.
[snip]
It will keep changing the candidates until an electable slate of
candidates is put forward.
Nope.
The system esnures that merely a new set of clones will be selected.
Free and fair elections are only possible with freedom of speech in a
system where a secret ballot selects candidates that can freely put
themselves forward without being vetted by any regime.
Freedom of speech is the rule in Cuba, except for those trying to
defeat the revolution, then it's not so much the "speech" that's
objected to, but the treason against the revolution. Free and fair
elections require that there is no foreign investement nor influence in
the process and that only public money be used in the campaign and used
in such a way as to support each candidate equally. That way they can
be elected on their merit and not on how much their money gets their
message out in front of propagandised voters. Cuba does this and it
makes their elections among the fairest and freeest in the world.

--
Regards, Fred
<http://www.fredwilliams.ca/thesecretofmoney.html>
PL
2007-12-03 09:14:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Unlike the US system, in Cuba it is no one's interest to impose
candidates on anyone as voters in national elections have the
right to reject ALL candidates on the ballot, voting for "none of
the above," thereby calling for a new slate of candidates and
another vote. Only those supported by the majority can be elected.
US voters can only dream of such freedom of expression!
(snip)
which won't change anything as the new "candidates" will be
"selected in the same way.
[snip]
It will keep changing the candidates until an electable slate of
candidates is put forward.
Nope.
The system esnures that merely a new set of clones will be selected.
Free and fair elections are only possible with freedom of speech in a
system where a secret ballot selects candidates that can freely put
themselves forward without being vetted by any regime.
Freedom of speech is the rule in Cuba,
Nope.
There is no freedom of speech in Cuba.
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
except for those trying to
defeat the revolution,
Thanks for exposing your own lies.

PL

Dan Christensen
2007-12-01 21:51:50 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 1, 11:40 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Unlike the US system, in Cuba it is no one's interest to impose
candidates on anyone as voters in national elections have the right to
reject ALL candidates on the ballot, voting for "none of the above,"
thereby calling for a new slate of candidates and another vote. Only
those supported by the majority can be elected. US voters can only
dream of such freedom of expression!
(snip)
which won't change anything as the new "candidates" will be "selected
in the same way.
[snip]
It will keep changing the candidates until an electable slate of
candidates is put forward.
Nope.
The system esnures that merely a new set of clones will be selected.
Free and fair elections are only possible with freedom of speech in a system
where a secret ballot selects candidates that can freely put themselves
forward without being vetted by any regime.
This already happens. Only the people themselves in open public
meetings or their democratically representatives can nominate
candidates. Unlike the US, no political parties, corporations or other
elite groups are involved in the process. Too much democracy for you,
eh, Mr. Lobbyist? As a final check on potential abuses, the electorate
has the final veto. Again, unlike the US they have the right to reject
all candidates on the ballot and call for a new slate of candidates
and another vote.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
I want Cubans to be able to express themselves freely voting in anonymous
elections (all can stand and all can vote freely) for candidates that can
put themselves forward freely
[snip]
Bullshit. Under Section 206 of your beloved Helms-Burton Act, it won't
matter what kind elections they hold, not even US-style money-based
elections would do, if the outcome was not to the liking of extremists
in Miami and Washington. Under HB, the genocide is to continue until
such time as socialism is outlawed and a capitalist regime is installed
in Havana. The Cuban people are to have no choice in the matter, even
though their socialist system, despite all your best efforts, continues
to provide the best health care and education systems in the region.
False.
A blatant lie.
Nope.
A fact.
First: there is no "genocide" and you are going to prove that by failing to
post even ONE quote from a reputable organization referring to the trade
sanctions as susch.
The facts in this case have been thoroughly documented by the likes of
Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and even the Catholic
Church. And while you may take some comfort in the fact that, for
murky political reasons, you and your man, Dubya, have yet to be
arrested for these crimes, under the UN Genocide Convention, your
beloved is indeed a form of genocide. (See featured article, "Is the
US embargo a form of genocide?" at my website.)
Post by PL
Secondly: socialims isn't outlawed at all.
Unless a system a based not on the collective ownership of the means
of production, but on private ownership, the genocide will continue.
It won't matter what kind of "elections" they hold.
Post by PL
Stalinist communism is what needs
to be moved away from.
Cuba is way more democratic than the USSR ever was. Or the USA for
that matter.
Post by PL
A Swedish social democracy for example fits the bill.
Sweden is capitalist country. It's economy is based primarily on
private property. But thanks for confirming that the genocide would
continue until such time a regime to your liking is installed in
Havana. So much for your supposed commitment to democracy and human
rights!
Post by PL
Thirdly: the main issue is respect of rights.
The main issue is to force a foreign political system on the Cuban
people, giving them no choice in the matter.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-25 09:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
(snip)
How odd then that even Forbes Magazine must resort to the use of rumours
and speculation
Castro has a "residence" in lots of Cuban towns Dan.
Ask any Cuban.
You will have to do better than this
some pictures maybe?
Just Havana, Cojimar,
Varadero,http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas...http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas...http://llamado32.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.htmlhttp://llamado32.blogspot.com/2007/06/casas-de-visitas-en-varadero-ii...http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=cubanosenm...http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=EarthPeople&Numbe...http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas...
A bunch of random pictures at various anti-Cuban forums?
Nope.
Not anti-Cuban, Dan.
Forums where Cubans post data about Cuba.

Do you deny that Castro has houses all over Cuba?

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-25 20:41:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
(snip)
How odd then that even Forbes Magazine must resort to the use of rumours
and speculation
Castro has a "residence" in lots of Cuban towns Dan.
Ask any Cuban.
You will have to do better than this
some pictures maybe?
Just Havana, Cojimar,
Varadero,http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas......
A bunch of random pictures at various anti-Cuban forums?
Nope.
Not anti-Cuban, Dan.
Forums where Cubans post data about Cuba.
Do you deny that Castro has houses all over Cuba?
There is nothing to deny. Until we see proof from credible sources to
support your outrageous claims, why should we take them seriously?
After all, your lies here are legendary.

Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere
speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal
fortune. But at least they are honest about it. No one, not even your
CIA colleagues, have taken him up on his challenge to resign if they
can prove he has even one dollar in a foreign bank.

Get back to us when you have all the facts. Until then, do not expect
a reply from me on this matter.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://
Rolf R
2007-11-25 21:20:28 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere
speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal
fortune.
You, idiot. The mere fact that he is a totalitarian dictator who can do
whatever, whenever with people and state properties would be enough for
even a man mentally handicap to understand he owns the whole island.
Dan Christensen
2007-11-26 05:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere
speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal
fortune.
You, idiot. The mere fact that he is a totalitarian dictator who can do
whatever, whenever with people and state properties
"Fact," Rolfie? That is your opinion. In my opinion, Cuba is more
democratic than the US ever was. (See "Democracy in Cuba" at my
website.)

By all credible accounts I have read, Fidel lives modestly. If you
have evidence to the contrary, please post it here.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-26 13:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere
speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal
fortune.
You, idiot. The mere fact that he is a totalitarian dictator who can do
whatever, whenever with people and state properties
"Fact," Rolfie? That is your opinion. In my opinion, Cuba is more
democratic than the US ever was.
(snip)

Cuba is no democracy.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/democracy.htm
A democracy needs freedom of speech to start with.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm
Cuba has a repressive totalitarian system:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/totalitarian_system.htm
Post by Dan Christensen
By all credible accounts I have read, Fidel lives modestly.
You mean by the lying propaganda.
Insiders of the Castro clan have disproved that lie though,

Have a look at the videos made by the ex-girlfriend of his son comrade
Dan.
He lives lavishly in a mansion with swimming pool, helipad, .....
He send his bodyguards to buy cured ham in Spain and dogs in Germany.

His family has access to over 300 cars for the household.

Videotapes show Castro living luxurious life
By Oliver Poole
LONDON DAILY TELEGRAPH


LOS ANGELES - Fidel Castro's luxurious lifestyle has been revealed in
home videotapes smuggled out of Cuba by a former girlfriend of one of
his
sons.
The videos, which show the communist leader preparing for a sumptuous
banquet and lounging on leather sofas in his villa in Havana, give the
first
peek into the residence that most Cubans have never seen.
State media are banned from reporting on his family or homes in the
family compound because of Mr. Castro's fear of assassination.
Only his eldest son, Fidel Jr., has appeared at his side and has a
government job. It is not even known how many children the leader has,
though it is believed there are seven, including two with his
mistresses.
The tapes, segments of which were broadcast for the first time on the
California Spanish-language channel Univision on Monday night, were
taken
from the island by Dashiell Torralba, who had a two-year relationship
with
Mr. Castro's son, Antonio, an orthopedic surgeon.
The 27-year-old woman, who is now in hiding in an undisclosed Latin
American country, told the channel she stole the videos as revenge on
the
76-year-old dictator's wife, Dalia.
Miss Torralba said that Mrs. Castro broke up the two-year romance
because she is the niece of Diocles Torralba, a former transport
minister
imprisoned in 1998 on corruption charges.
The tapes last a total of 40 minutes and are believed to have been
mainly shot by Mr. Castro's adult children. The series, titled "The
Secret
Life of Fidel Castro," depicts his main residential compound, Punto
Cero, or
Point Zero, in western Havana.
Monday's episode showed Mr. Castro dressed casually before a banquet,
inspecting the elaborate dinnerware on the dinner table, his
grandchildren
playing with relatives and Antonio zooming along the patio on an
electric
scooter.
It pictures the spacious compound and carefully landscaped garden and
reveals that many of the family are wearing designer clothes. The
house is
decorated with wooden chests and Cuban handicrafts. A large-screen
television monitors foreign news channels.
Sergio Gatria, of the Cuban Information Center, an anti-Castro
organization of exiles, said the tapes confirmed that the Cuban
dictator
lived the life of a millionaire despite the poverty of many of the
island's
citizens.
The Castro regime has not commented on the tapes but Univision is
convinced of their authenticity.
"It can't be a fake," said a spokesman for the Los Angeles-based
channel. "There are too many recognizable people."

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20021120-30515202.htm

25 March 2006 17:39

Why Fidel Castro burns his underpants, by aide who defected
By Rupert Cornwell in Washington
Published: 25 March 2006

When you've held uninterrupted power for almost half a century, a dash
of paranoia and self-indulgence is inevitable. Which is why,
presumably,
Fidel Castro has his underwear burnt after use, and sends aides across
the Atlantic to spend a small fortune on Spanish cured ham.

Such are the latest details on the world's longest surviving head of
state and government, as provided by one of his former personal
assistants, Delphin Fernandez. The picture that emerges is of a man
obsessed with his health, his security and with personal details of
foreign businessmen planning to invest in Cuba.

Mr Fernandez is perhaps a biased witness, who makes a living in Miami
from a TV show where he dishes the dirt on Fidel and his brother and
probable successor Raul. "Cuba has a death sentence against me for
high
treason," he told the Miami Herald this week.

But former specialists from the CIA - which for decades has been
vainly
trying to get rid of Castro, by means that include coups, poison and
exploding cigars - say his allegations are highly credible.

In his years at the Cuban leader's side, Mr Fernandez was employed by
Havana's counter intelligence service to look after the family and
keep
a close eye on their foreign investment contacts. Disillusioned, he
defected in 1999 during a trip to Europe where he had been sent to
pick
up a Rottweiler dog in Germany for Fidel. He now describes the regime
as
"a vast lie." Cuba's people "have been enslaved as cheap labour for
foreign businessmen."

But it is the details offered by Mr Fernandez, rather than his
political
denunciations, that are fascinating. He was told, for instance, by the
President's chief bodyguard, that Castro has his old underwear
incinerated so they cannot be laundered with deadly chemicals to
assassinate him. On another occasion, he was despatched across the
Atlantic to bring back a $2,500 consignment of 'pata negra' ham,
considered Spain's finest.

One way and another, President Castro seems somewhat quirkier and
harder
to please than one of his current erstwhile nemeses, US vice-President
Dick Cheney. As Mr Fernandez was recounting his experiences, a memo
leaked in Washington has described Mr Cheney's requirements for hotel
over-nights when travelling in the US.

They are in fact pretty modest: mineral water in the cooler, the room
thermostat set to a cosy 68 degrees fahrenheit, all lights on when he
arrives and the TV pre-set to the reliably sympathetic Fox News
channel.

There are some similarities. Like Mr Cheney here, the Cuban president
travels around Havana in an imposing, heavily protected motorcade, in
his case headed by three almost identical black Mercedes. But Fidel
and
his brother (and assumed successor) Raul, have no less than 300 cars
for
themselves, their families and bodyguards. Mr Cheney, as far as is
known, does not share this indulgence.

According to Mr Fernandez, Raul - five years Fidel's junior - is the
more businesslike of the two. "Raul likes the money -- he has a
transition plan. Fidel doesn't. I think Raúl would want to lead an
economic transformation, and ultimately find a way to retire
peacefully."

Meanwhile the veteran Communist is now the longest serving ruler of
any
country. Once a decent baseball pitcher, Mr Castro was narrowly
deprived
of his ambition of winning the sport's inaugural world championship
earlier this month, when Cuba lost in the final to Japan.

But he is still cocking a snook across the Florida Straits at the US
which has been trying to topple him ever since he took power in 1959,
and still defying reports of his imminent demise. In his more
ambitious
moments, he must be quietly savouring the prospect off seeing off a
10th
US Presidency when George W. Bush and Dick Cheney step down in January
2009.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article353454.ece

Fidel Castro, Inc.: A Global Conglomerate
By Maria C. Werlau

Introduction
Since 1997, Forbes magazine has featured Fidel Castro in its annual
Billionaires' edition as one of the richest rulers in the world.
Initially, Forbes assigned to Castro a share of Cuba's reported GDP
(gross domestic product) for the previous year, which yielded a
fortune
of approximately $150 million. Since 2003, however, it began using a
method similar to that used to estimate the fortunes of businesspeople
and other royals and rulers. Using academic sources, Forbes identified
several enterprises said to be controlled by Castro and determined
their
value by comparing them to similar publicly-traded companies. This has
resulted in the more recent estimate of $500 million for Castro's
fortune.
Aside from the difficulties inherent in estimating the value of
privately-held companies lacking financial disclosure, Forbes'
calculation of Fidel Castro's fortune is fraught with other obstacles.
Due to a severe lack of information, the number of enterprises it took
into account was very restricted in relation to the large number of
businesses said to be under Castro's control. In addition, Forbes'
calculation of Castro's net worth fails to take into account funds in
bank accounts all over the world, large inventories of assets inside
Cuba, and real estate holdings both in Cuba and overseas, all reported
to belong to Castro. Yet, given the serious methodological flaws of
Cuba's GDP statistics and Forbes' past practice of using only one year
as the basis for its calculation, the new approach provides a sounder
approximation to Castro's wealth. Although it probably falls well
short
of Castro's actual holdings, at least its foundation is the market
value
of clearly designated assets.
Not surprisingly, the Cuban government has long disputed Forbes'
inclusion of Castro in their list. It publicly responded for the first
time in 2004 by issuing a statement that "the revenues of Cuban state
companies are used exclusively for the benefit of the people, to whom
they belong." Fidel publicly rebuked Forbes' report and said he was
considering a lawsuit against the magazine for libel.
Because of the large, intricate, and secret nature of these business
activities, expectedly, all estimates of Castro's worth are imprecise.
Nonetheless, even the best attempts appear to be well shy of the vast
wealth under his command. The testimonies of former regime insiders
provide telling snapshots of the enormous assets that Fidel Castro and
his brother Raúl control. Arguably, they offer damning substantiation
of
their existence, regardless of their precise value at any given time
-which appears to fluctuate widely as substantial assets apparently
flow
in and out constantly.
What is striking about defectors' accounts is their consistency. This
is
more impressive because they originate from independent sources
unrelated to one another who have had dissimilar access to the
structure
of power and whose testimonies cover different events and stages and
have been collected over a long period. In fact, over the years, many
of
these accounts have appeared in low-profile media reports in different
countries or have been published as memoirs written almost exclusively
in Spanish -far from the best-seller circuits and widely ignored by
the
international mainstream media. By systematically compiling this
assortment of tales, a coherent story emerges of a vast international
conglomerate backed up by sophisticated financial dealings in world
capital markets. Fidel, Inc. consists of scores of enterprises,
sizeable hard currency holdings, and numerous real estate assets
inside
and outside Cuba, all under Fidel or Raúl Castro's personal control
and
concealed from official national statistics. It enjoys a rare
advantage
- the boundless exploitation and use of the resources -both capital
and
human- of an entire nation, all free of oversight and taxation.
Background
Cuba is a totalitarian state controlled by Fidel Castro, who is today
the longest serving head of state. In power since 1959, he is chief of
state with the titles of President, Head of Government, First
Secretary
of the Communist Party, and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. In
March of 2003, already after 44 years in power, he officially declared
his intent to remain in office for life. During his entire tenure, his
brother and designated successor, Raúl, has been Head of Cuba's Armed
Forces and his principal and loyal ally. The regime they command
denies
basic civil, political, and economic rights to its citizens. Those who
stand in its way are driven into exile or dealt with swiftly.
Arguably, Fidel Castro "owns" most of Cuba. As supreme ruler of one of
the world's most tightly-held and closed economies, the level of
usurpation of a country's resources by one person that he has managed
to
carry out seems comparable in modern times only to that of present
North
Korea under the Kim Jong Il and his father, the late Kim Il Sung,
before
him.
For over four decades, Fidel Castro has arbitrarily controlled and had
at his sole disposal practically all of Cuba's financial and economic
resources. According to countless first-hand reports by former regime
higher-ups, he alone and at his discretion has the last word on all
decisions affecting the political and economic destiny of the entire
Cuban nation. Most Cuba experts and scholars agree on this point.
Alcibíades Hidalgo, one of the highest-ranking defectors ever to flee
the island, explained: ``It is simply impossible to undertake any
political or economic initiative in Cuba. The only option one has is
to
surrender to the dictates of the regime and to the thinking of the one
and only maximum leader, who is above all the citizens." (...) "Fidel is
accountable to no one and is able to live his own reality."
Soon after Castro's takeover in 1959, the state began confiscating
bank
accounts -personal and commercial- land, businesses, and commercial
property, both foreign and national. In 1961, upon consolidating
power,
Castro declared Cuba a Communist state, an intention he had repeatedly
denied, reneging on the promise of democracy under a rule of law. By
the late 1960s, no private media was left and almost no property
remained in private hands -all commercial and productive enterprises,
financial institutions, schools, and even the smallest of businesses
had
been nationalized, their management taken over by government cadres.
Droves of Cubans fled Communism, forbidden from taking anything but a
small suitcase of authorized personal belongings and leaving behind
residences, works of art, jewelry, and all sorts of valuables, small
or
large. Their homes were assigned to the nomenklatura or leased by the
state to embassies and foreigners, while their belongings were
distributed to the ruling elite and valuables sold in world markets.
The
steady exodus is huge -between 1959 and 1999, 1,079,000 Cubans left
for
different countries.
The Cuban economy is technically under socialist central planning.
Since the early 1990s there have been limited elements of
state-controlled "capitalism," such as joint ventures operating with
foreign capital in sectors such as tourism, telecommunications, and
mining. Yet, in essence, the state controls nearly the entire formal
economy and is the sole employer and owner of nearly all resources.
Not
surprisingly, the Index of Economic Freedom lists Cuba as one of the
least free countries in the world, number 149 of 155 countries (only
North Korea, Burma, Libya, Zimbabwe, Turkmenistan, and Laos rank
lower).
Ordinary Cuban citizens are banned from engaging in most independent
economic activity -including owning businesses, engaging in private
commercial, manufacturing, import and export, financial transactions,
or
any sort of business enterprise, and investing in enterprises with
foreigners. The only private activity allowed ordinary Cubans is
limited to small-scale sales in farmers markets, a small number of
homes
licensed to rent rooms to tourists and/or operate family restaurants,
some land cultivation in small plots belonging to quasi-independent
farmers, and limited self-employment. Currently, less than 100,000
individuals are believed to be self-employed, representing around 2%
of
the workforce. Just 118 private occupations are authorized for
self-employment if allowed by two-year renewable licenses -bricklayer,
artisan, electrician, locksmith, gardener, hairdresser and the likes.
Citizens participating in the underground economy face steep fines or
prison and the routine confiscation of their goods. Yet, the informal
economy is huge, as the end of massive Soviet assistance after 1989,
thanks to the demise the end of Soviet Communism, provoked a severe
deterioration in the state's delivery of food, social services, and
consumer goods. Topping off the staggering level of individual
dispossession, ordinary Cuban citizens are prohibited from entering
hotels, beaches, resorts, and exclusive medical and other facilities
reserved for foreigners and the ruling elite.
The subordination of the common citizen to the state in all economic
(as well as political) aspects assures that no one other than
designated
top government officials can accumulate wealth. In fact, even those
within his inner circle are subject to constant monitoring by the
intelligence apparatus; despite their privileges, they must stay
within
certain bounds. Only Fidel Castro enjoys true economic independence -
as
he retains exclusive discretion over the nation's resources, his
personal and political prerogatives supersede economic rationality and
planning.
Fidel Castro's holdings
Former top government officials and insiders at the highest levels of
power who have defected or sought exile from Cuba uniformly describe
Fidel Castro's direct personal control over the country's finances and
the absence of separation between public property and de facto private
property under his command. His brother Raúl, head of the Armed Forces
and designated successor, is intimately linked to these practices.
A former member of the Castro brothers' inner circle and comrade from
the Sierra Maestra struggle, Dariel Alarcón Ramírez, defected in Paris
in 1996 after holding many high-ranking government posts with the
closest access to the Fidel and Raúl. Better known as "Benigno," his
autobiographical narration of his many years by Castro's side provides
an incisive look into the patterns of patronage, corruption, and
absolute control over state resources by Castro and the highest
members
of the ruling elite. His sobering account coincides with those of
many former higher ups of the Castro regime -some are cited throughout
this paper, others have been obtained anecdotally over the years.
The Comandante's Reserves
What insiders commonly refer to as "the Comandante's reserves,"
consists of an integrated system of overseas bank accounts as well as
the national reserve of fleets of automobiles and trucks, and stored
food and consumer and luxury goods for the elite. A large and complex
web of enterprises inside and outside Cuba funnels funds and goods to
these reserves and are commanded by high-ranking members of the
nomenklatura and the Armed Forces, both in active service and retired.

The "Comandante's reserves" are reportedly replenished through schemes
that include: 1.) the assigned percentages from tourism, remittances
from abroad, the revenues of hard currency businesses operations
inside
and outside Cuba, 2.) the hard currency earnings of Cubans employed
overseas of doing business overseas but under the authority or control
of the Cuban state, 3.) the sale of Cuban state assets to foreigners,
4.) the sale abroad of Cuban art, artifacts, jewelry, antiques, and
other valuables taken when their owners leave the country, and 5.)
revenues from drug trafficking and criminal activities perpetrated by
subversive and terrorist groups with the help of Cuban agents or
coordinated by Cuba.

Cash resources are systematically diverted to bank accounts over which
Castro maintains sole discretion in Switzerland, Grand Cayman, London,
Lichtenstein, and Panama.

The Corporate Conglomerate

Corporations created both inside and outside of Cuba to do business
with and in the foreign sector are said to be a primary source of
revenues for Castro. Jesús Marzo Fernandez, who left Cuba in May 1996
after holding very high-level positions, explains: "Of unknown
ownership, these were enterprises created to generate funds outside
the
planning system, as if they were the private property of certain
government officials." Many of these businesses are involved in joint
venture arrangements or other business relationships with foreign
interests, which usually provide a front for Cuba. The companies are
not subject to audits or any type of disclosure, so it is impossible
to
assess the extent of their activities and revenues. Revenues from many
of these corporations are said to go directly, often fully, to the
Comandante's Reserves.
One can glean at the complexity of the business conglomerate from the
testimony of several defectors and former regime insiders. A civilian
holding company under Fidel's command and a military conglomerate
under
Raúl's command effectively assure that all strategic industries are
under the Castro brothers' control. The network includes:
I. CIMEX, / is the most powerful financial-commercial conglomerate of
the Cuban government -a huge holding company for a network of
enterprises -reported to range in number from 270 or more to just 80,
with revenues estimated at US$1 billion. CIMEX has commercial
representation in dozens of countries and operates joint ventures with
foreign enterprises. In Cuba, it owns several store chains that sell
only in hard currency, controlling 1,500 stores, gas stations,
cafeterias, video rental stores, and other venues for sales to the
public (including the Rapiditos fast food outlets and the Panamericana
chain, with sales of up to US$1 million a day). Other subsidiaries
include the airline that handles all international courier mail and
the
real estate enterprise Inmobiliaria CIMEX, Havanatur, Havanautos, the
recording studio Abdala and the fashion store La Maison. CIMEX also
controls many enterprises incorporated abroad. Two merchant marine
operations, Melfi Marine and Melbrige, both under Panamanian flag, are
purportedly held by the subsidiary Transcimex, which has foreigners
acting as fronts. (For a partial list of CIMEX-controlled firms
outside
of Cuba, see the Appendix.) Two of CIMEX subsidiaries are banks whose
operations are extremely secret and believed to be involved in
laundering drug monies:
o Banco Financiero Internacional (BFI), founded in 1984 as the first
Cuban entity operating in dollars and with total autonomy from the
formal state system. By 1999 it had sixteen branches in Cuba and an
unknown number abroad (including in the United Kingdom and Canada).
Its
initial objective was the removal from the National Bank of Cuba
transactions intended to leave no trace. Its main clients are the same
firms associated with the "Comandante's reserves," as described
herein.
Foreigners stand in for all its official business.
o Banco de Inversiones, S.A., which makes loans to the Cuban
government
at high interest rates and is allegedly run by or in conjunction with
an
Israeli citizen. The bank's capital is suspected to come from the
Banco
Financiero Internacional.
II. GAESA (Grupo de Administración Empresarial) is the holding company
for a number of corporations under military management and Raúl
Castro's
control. Headed by his son-in-law Major Luis Alberto Rodríguez
López-Callejas, the Chairman of the Board is Raúl's second-in-command
and confidant, Division General Julio Casas Regueiro. "Agent Otto," a
former intelligence officer directly involved in foreign operations,
reports that "Raúl Castro and his son-in-law have been especially
meticulous in endowing GAESA with the ability to generate and
manipulate
foreign-currency, especially U.S. dollars." GAESA is used as a vehicle
to stash away money overseas." He adds: "The funds never make it to
the
state Treasury; this operation runs parallel to the country's economy.
The group is enormous: it invoices close to one billion dollars
annually." The holding company owns firms dedicated to tourism and the
foreign sector such as:
o Aerogaviota, S.A., providing all air transportation to the tourism
industry and rentals to foreign businesspersons. It operates an
airplane and helicopter fleet from its headquarters at the Baracoa
Military Air Base, near Havana, and is staffed only with military
personnel.
o Almacenes Universal, S.A., operating several free trade zones.
o Almest S.A., which builds hotel facilities and other real estate for
the exclusive use of or sale to foreigners.
o Agrotex S.A., handling activities related to agriculture and cattle
-from animal breeding farms and candy factories to the manufacture of
honey and general food products.
o Antex, S.A., instrumental in setting up various types of offshore
and
holding companies, imports and exports (buys and sells timber, ships,
and the like), and serving as conduit for introducing spies trained by
Military Counterintelligence into other countries. With offices in
over
ten countries, including Panama, Angola, South Africa, and Namibia, it
hires foreign labor in Third World countries and lends itself to
infiltrating espionage and intelligence personnel. This company in
particular apparently moves lots of money and is said to be one of
Raúl
Castro's most important endeavors. Its staff is made up of highly
qualified and trained military personnel.
o Empresa de Servicios La Marina, which takes care of security and
maintenance for all of GAESA's support personnel.
o Habanos, S.A., tobacco and rum distributor.
o Gaviota, S.A. operating over 30 hotels all over the island, mostly
with foreign partners (including Sol Meliá and Club Mediterranné) and
involved in other activities in the tourist industry.
o Geocuba, S.A., dedicated to the cartography business and dealing
with
land concessions or leasing related to tourism and other sectors such
as
mining, agriculture, and real estate.
o Sasa S.A., with automobile repair shops and gas stations throughout
the country.
o Sermar S.A., operating shipyards for all naval repairs. Under the
direction of Captain Luis Fraga Artiles, the company was launched with
a
fleet of navy vessels and has its own diving team. Sermar is involved
in
a very lucrative business, the search for sunken treasures in an ocean
rich with capsized Spanish ships. According to Agent Otto: "This
company
is generating enormous amounts of money, for it alone has access to
the
wealth of treasures under that ocean. Raúl says 'This is mine' and
it's
final. One cannot begin to calculate what funds go where. Explorer
Jacques Cousteau once visited Cuba with the hope of exploring some of
these ships, but was not granted permission."
o Tecnotex S.A., importing and exporting every product needed by the
other companies in the holding. Allegedly, it serves as an ideal front
for introducing state-of-the-art, dual-purpose (civilian and military
application), technology into Cuba barred by the U.S. embargo.
o TRD Caribe, operating over 400 "Currency Recovery Stores" (Tiendas
de
Recuperación de Divisas) all throughout the island, selling products
only in hard currency. Reportedly, it generates more than one hundred
million dollars per year. Because it maintains high business volume
with China and Hong Kong, it buys cheap and makes a huge margin on
sales
by marking products up exorbitantly. This operation is under the
División Financiera, whose goal is to recycle and reinvest income
generated by the GAESA network.
o An enterprise of unknown name serving as a holding group to operate
all historic museums and monuments generating fees in high hard
currency. Palacio de Convenciones, which holds international events
-many of a political nature- is presumably part of this group. It has
earnings estimated at US$3 to $5 million a year, which allegedly go in
their entirety into the Comadante's accounts.
o Another network of privately-held enterprises, that operates inside
Cuba in the peso economy.
It is unclear if the following enterprises are independent entities
separate from the CIMEX or GAESA networks, but their standing and
revenues within the entire corporate system controlled by the Castro
brothers is very important:
o Cubalse, a holding company of the Council of State under the direct
supervision of Fidel Castro. Its net earnings are estimated at US$30
million a year and all said to go into Castro's reserve. Cubalse hires
out workers to foreign joint ventures operating in Cuba as well as to
diplomatic and other foreign representations. The proceeds of the
currency exchange from their salaries go directly into the
"Comandante's reserves." Part of the money generated by Cubalse is
deposited directly into Banco Financiero Internacional (BFI), the rest
is placed in Financiera de Cubalse, in Switzerland. Among Cubalse's
subsidiaries are a store chain originally engaged in hard currency
sales
for the diplomatic community -now open to anyone with hard currency,
Meridiano, S.A. and Automotriz, S.A.
o Cubanacán, a group of enterprises that lures foreign investment into
tourism and manages hotels, restaurants, and travel agencies. Like
CIMEX, it has several store chains that sell only in hard currency and
is said to control approximately US$600 million in foreign capital
-primarily in investments by Meliá, LTI International, TRIP, Delta
International, Golden Tulip International, Cosmo World, and Super
Club.
40% of Cubanacan's revenues, estimated at US$30 million, are
reportedly
funneled into the Comandante's reserves.
o Medicuba, which sells pharmaceutical products manufactured in the
country, especially vaccines, generates an unknown amount of revenue
estimated at several million dollars.
The enterprises mentioned above and in the Appendix have been
specifically named in reports by former regime insiders. Most are
classified by the Office of Foreign Assets Control (O.F.A.C.) of the
U.S. Treasury Department as blocked entities, or "designated
nationals,"
of the Cuban government. A large number of the overseas firms are
located in Panama and Spain, but others are based in many other
countries in Latin American and Europe, while some are located as far
as
Japan. Aside from this list, many more enterprises controlled by the
Castro brothers are said to exist inside and outside Cuba operating in
India, South Africa, Malta and Grand Cayman. Some have been designated
by O.F.A.C.; others are yet to be identified.

It may be assumed that the vast majority, if not all, of firms formed
inside Cuba to do business in or with the foreign sector is under
government control - which generally means under Fidel Castro's
control
and with the profits, or a designated percentage of them, for his
direct
account. The "sociedades anónimas" (S.A.) are Cuba's unique version of
a
capitalist firm -their business activities mirror those under private
ownership in free market societies. In Cuba, however, their listed
owners are unknown, their operations and financial statements are not
subject to scrutiny, and individuals designated by the government
manage
them. Many of the on-island corporations were formed in the 1990s to
take advantage of tourism, particularly looking to capture business
from
the U.S.. Reports vary regarding the percentage of revenues that go
into Fidel Castro's reserves. Aside from the fact that this matter is
kept within a small circle of high-level officials, it is hard to
imagine that any one person would come across that degree of detail
regarding the very large number of enterprises involved. Initially,
only
the Ministry of the Interior managed the corporate web, later other
Ministries, such as the Ministry of Trade and the Ministry of
Transportation, were included in the scheme.

It is more difficult to identify enterprises formed overseas under the
Castro brothers' control. Most have been incorporated under the names
of Cuban officials or foreign nationals in association with the Cuban
government. Manuel de Beunza, who ran -as its "owner"- a Cuban company
involved in all sorts of shipping activities in Montreal, reports
having
opened many such companies and eighteen bank accounts under his name.
Oftentimes, he asserts, the overseas corporations are established
under
the name of lawyers or other intermediaries in different countries who
receive payment for these services. For example, Havanatur, a company
with subsidiaries and offices in Cuba as well as Bahamas, Chile, and
Argentina, was run by a Chilean. The Cuban and foreign individuals who
appear as owners and typically serve as managers are allowed a
participation in the business by way of juicy compensation packages, a
lavish lifestyle if abroad, and other privileges. This happens as long
as Castro is guaranteed a certain share and the leakage remains within
certain bounds.

A 2003 El Nuevo Herald article features the accounts of Spanish
businessmen of their dealings with Cuban managers of companies such as
Cubatur, Caracol S.A. (which controls all hotel stores in Cuba),
Esicuba, and GMS Financial Group. Their business meetings took place
at
the Ministry of Foreign Relations. The Spaniards have documents
demonstrating that in September 1998 they created a front company in
Panama, the GFA Financial Group. This entity was to request loans from
the Credicorp Bank of Panama to channel funds to Caracol, S.A. in
violation of the U.S. embargo. Fintur, the Cuban financial entity for
all state tourism companies, would collateralize the loans. The
brainchild of the operation on the Cuban side was Humberto Pérez
González, the President of Fintur. The deal called for the Spaniards
to
receive monetary compensation while the Cuban managers were to obtain
material gain only "under the table." But, the operation was
unexpectedly called off on December 3, 1998, when Colombian
authorities
confiscated a huge shipment of 6,219 kilos of cocaine hidden in a
container destined for the crafts' manufacturing plant AEI Unión de
Plástico, a mixed enterprise between Cuba and the same two Spanish
businessmen. The Spaniards, accused of drug trafficking by Colombia,
blame the Cuban government for the drug shipment.

Spain appears to host a large number of Cuban enterprises. In fact, a
considerable number of sons and daughters of the highest-ranking
members
of the Cuban government and military are overseas, particularly in
Spain, running businesses and traveling back to the island regularly.
Some live in Cuba, but travel abroad frequently for business or
tourism.
This corroborates reports by former Cuban intelligence agent "Otto,"
who was stationed at the Cuban Embassy in Madrid, where he defected.
He
asserts that Spain is the nerve center of Cuba's European operations
for
obvious reasons- similar culture, language, and idiosyncrasy. Yet, he
says, this also responds to the friendly ties Cuban agents enjoy with
certain high ranking members of the Spanish military as well as to
their
successful infiltration of Spanish intelligence services. Agent Otto
explains that some of the one hundred Cuban intelligence and
counter-intelligence agents in Spain are not really diplomats, but
rather act as representatives of Cuban companies.

An important issue meriting further exploration emerges from reports
that Cuba uses overseas companies fronting for Castro as collateral
for
hard currency loans obtained overseas by different entities of the
Cuban
state. This would provide a plausible explanation to the seeming
foolishness of foreign creditors' huge short-term loans to Cuba in
recent years. Given Cuba's longstanding default and moratorium on
external debt repayments, its obvious lack of creditworthiness , and
the wretched state of its economy, the continued extension of credits
to
Cuba is otherwise perplexing.
Hard Currency Bank Accounts
Many former regime insiders claim having direct knowledge of overseas
bank accounts controlled by the Castro brothers. Agent Otto, for
example, confirms that Fidel Castro has his own foreign bank account
network and that million of dollars of Cubalse and CIMEX revenues are
regularly deposited into those accounts. Fidel Castro, he reports, has
his own special bank accounts with Banco Fiananciero Internacional
(BFI). The accounts belong to the Council of State, which is to say,
Fidel Castro. Otto claims that several million dollars of Cubalse's
income is always deposited in those accounts -the same goes for income
generated by the Cimex Corporation.
The matter of overseas bank accounts seems to go back a long time.
General Rafael del Pino describes a meeting in the late 1960's with
Raúl Castro, Cuba's Head of the Armed Forces, when del Pino was in
charge of Cubana de Aviación, Cuba's national airline. Raúl instructed
him to open a bank account in Zurich, Switzerland, to deposit all the
funds received from foreign airlines in fees for air passage over
Cuba.
The accounts were opened in the name of Vilma Espín, Raúl's wife, and
Rodolfo Fernández, the right hand man of Celia Sánchez, Fidel's
longtime
friend and confidant. Del Pino reproduced in his biography a hand
written note to him from Raúl Castro, dated May 9, 1968, referring to
"the Swiss matter."
To funnel monies to the foreign banks, complex evasion operations are
undertaken to deliver cash through courier routes that, at least in
the
past, went through Moscow. One route is reported to have ended in
accounts at Cantonal Bank in Geneva. Otto also reports that at the
time
of his defection a few years ago the Banco Financiero Internacional
(BFI), a subsidiary of Promotora S.A. of Panama, was a key part of
this
system. Reportedly, the Office of the Secretary of Cuba's Council of
State opened an office in Zurich under the name Financiera de Cubalse
(Cubalse's Financial Institution), an entity that works with an office
of Cantonal Bank in Geneva. In addition, large amounts of moneys are
"transferred" from BFI to Financiera de Cubalse.
Fidel's Hard Currency Fund. Since the 1990's Fidel Castro is said to
have a fund called "Fondo de Divisas del Comandante en Jefe," to which
15% of all hard currency revenues generated by Cubans overseas
-trainers, artists, professionals, technicians, etc.- is deposited via
a
state agency or corporation called CubaTécnica. Cubans sent on
internationalist missions abroad -doctors and other professionals sent
to Third World countries- for which Cuba charges the receiving country
in hard currency, are paid in local currency and guaranteed very
basic,
often substandard, living conditions. In 2003 Cuba's Foreign Minister
reported that nearly 3,000 doctors worked in rural areas in 21
countries
-13 in Africa and 8 in Latin America. Based on this data, just for
doctors, approximately US$8 million would be going into Castro's
reserves. The location of the accounts in which these funds are
deposited is unknown, but it appears they are part of the overall
network of "the Comandante's Reserves."
A story consistently repeated by several former high-ranking Cuban
government officials is that in the 1980s Fidel Castro received
suitcases full of hard currency as "gifts" for his birthday each
August
13th -a practice that may continue, but has not been corroborated in
recent years. The amounts varied from year to year. After his
defection
in 1987, Major Florentino Aspillaga Lombard, a former high-ranking
MININT (Ministry of the Interior) official, reported that each year,
MININT agents stationed abroad would bestow on Fidel for his birthday
with millions of dollars obtained from illicit businesses. The monies,
he said, were deposited in Swiss bank accounts and were used to
support
favored guerilla movements internationally or bribe world leaders. In
1985, he says, Castro received 3.7million Cuban pesos and in 1986, he
received US$4.2 million. Jesús Fernández reports that he witnessed at
a birthday party for Castro in the 1980s when a prominent government
official gave Castro a suitcase with US$10 million. Large amounts of
cash are delivered to Castro at other times. Manuel de Beunza, who
managed Cuban businesses in Canada, reports having on one occasion
personally delivered US$2 million to Fidel through his most trusted
Assistant, "Chomy," José Miyar Barruecos.
Castro allegedly makes loans from his overseas "reserves" to the
national economy to cover hard currency shortfalls at an interest of
ten
percent, regardless of the length of the loan. In the 1980's, Jesús
Marzo Fernández was aware of transactions to cover oil imports as well
as two specific transactions -for US$20 million and US$30 million
respectively- to import foodstuffs, mostly cereals. This, of course,
represents a steady source of income to replenish Fidel's reserves.
Real Estate

After 46 years in power many government insiders, foreign visitors,
and
average Cubans -former staff, acquaintances of children of the elite,
etc.- have reported of multiple residences and recreational facilities
in Cuba set aside for Fidel Castro and his family for their personal
use. Fidel's daughter, Alina, mentions several "Protocol Houses" used
for dignitaries and friends of Castro, information that is confirmed
in
accounts by other defectors. The long list includes several yachts and
anywhere from 25 to 37 homes all over the island -many are said to be
used only occasionally for short rest periods during travels
throughout
the island or to entertain guests. These include a number of
recreational residences at beaches and in the countryside, ranches,
hunting grounds, specialized fishing and cattle reserves, a shrimp
breeding facility, and luxurious underground bunkers outfitted with
the
latest technology. Some have their own electric generation and water
plants, sophisticated communications' command facilities, and enjoy
amenities such as pools, tennis courts, runways, marinas, and even
golf
courses.

Among the overseas properties Castro is said to own are a castle in
Austria, and large ranches in Galicia, Spain, Monterrey, Mexico, and
near New Delhi, India. According to a former insider who had access to
the information in the 1980s, those four properties were at the time
considered the preferred safe havens in case Castro had to leave Cuba,
as the leaders of those countries could be relied on to offer Castro
personal protection. Reportedly, properties have been also purchased
in
France, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Italy, Bahamas, Tanzania, and
Egypt, and properties in Ecuador are said to be under the control of
Raúl and his wife's family. Different mechanisms are used to disguise
the ownership -designating trustworthy people or foreign companies or
individuals receiving compensation. Because the sources for this
information have had access to the data at a given time period, it is
impossible to ascertain which properties might presently be held by
Castro.

Drug Trafficking, Criminal Activities and Money Laundering

The involvement of high-ranking Cuban government officials in
international drug trafficking under the orders or with the knowledge
and acquiescence of the Castro brothers has been long known.
Consistent
reports abound from former regime insiders, members of Colombian and
Mexican drug cartels, from intelligence officials of the former Soviet
Union and its satellites, and from journalists, governments, and even
world leaders -including the Presidents of the United States and
Colombia. In fact, four high-ranking Cuban officials have been
indicted
in the United States on drug charges. In addition, there are plentiful
reports of the links between Fidel Castro and Robert Vesco in money
laundering and drug trafficking activities. Vesco, a fugitive from
U.S.
justice, lived in luxury and with the protection of the Cuban leader
since 1980, but fell in disgrace in 1995 and was sentenced to thirteen
years in prison, which he is serving on the island.

Juan Antonio Rodríguez Mernier, a former Cuban Intelligence Mayor who
obtained political asylum in the United States in 1987, has written
about the drug trafficking and criminal activities with
terrorist-guerrilla networks of Cuba's intelligence apparatus. He
claims that in the 1970s the de la Guardia brothers, heavily into
international terrorist, subversive, and criminal activities,
convinced
then Interior Minister Abrahantes to persuade Fidel of the benefits of
cooperating with international drug traffickers. Fidel's approval was
won with the argument that it would not only weaken the United States,
but also bring in funds for international subversive activities and
hard
currency for Cuba. Rodríguez Mernier relates that drug trafficking
became a substantial source of hard currency revenue for Fidel Castro.
Major Florentino Aspillaga explains that millions of dollars in cash
delivered by Cuban intelligence agents to Castro were to be deposited
in
his Swiss bank accounts "in order to finance liberation movements."

Cuban Air Force Brigadier General Rafael del Pino, the highest-ranking
defector from Cuba's Armed Forces, describes how during his command
small planes carrying drugs were systematically and in large numbers
given free reign of Cuban airspace. Del Pino also provides details on
how Cuban radar and air-traffic control installations make it
impossible
for such missions to fly undetected. For his part, former Cuban
Intelligence Major Florentino Aspillaga also confirms the long-term
personal involvement of the Castro brothers in the drug trade. Just
like the others, he explains that it would be impossible for these
operations to be carried out without the personal approval of Fidel.

Cuba has been a sort of clearinghouse for international terrorist and
subversive activities, for which Castro seems to have considerable
funding discretion. Subversive groups from Latin America and the
Middle
East have routinely delivered funds for Castro's reserves with the
proceeds of bank robberies, kidnappings, robberies, contraband, and
other criminal activities that Cuba has planned, coordinated or in
which
Cuba had some participation. These, together with operations to
eliminate opponents overseas by way of assassination, were carried out
under the command of twins Antonio and Patricio de la Guardia, first
by
the MC Department and, subsequently, by the M-Z departments of the
latter CIMEX.

Norberto Fuentes, the Revolution's former author and a member of the
Castro brother's inner circle, has provided a wealth of information on
drug, money laundering, robberies perpetrated by Cuban agents or
coordinated by Cuba with full knowledge and direction from Fidel
Castro.
He gives ample detail on the criminal activities of terrorist groups
that have netted Cuba millions of dollars to sustain the Castro regime
and finance international terrorism, subversion, and "liberation
movements." According to Fuentes, an operation conducted with the
Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine resulted in a booty
of
one billion dollar from bank robberies in Lebanon during the 1975-76
civil war there. Cuban agents Alfredo Sugve del Rosario and Filiberto
Catiñeiras (known as "Felo") headed the small Cuban team that
transported the treasure to Cuba -gold bars, jewelry, gems, and museum
pieces. The fortune was dispatched in diplomatic pouches, each carried
by two Cuban agents during 28 successive days via air
Beirut-Moscow-Havana. Castro personally greeted Sugve and Catiñeiras
upon their arrival on the last flight of the transfer, declaring them
"heroes." Fuentes reports that the treasure was displayed in eleven
tables set up inside vaults, where Castro took members of the
Political
Bureau for viewings. The whereabouts of the treasure are unknown.

Jorge Masetti's compelling autobiography describes his participation
in
drug trafficking, counterfeiting, kidnappings, bank robberies, and
other
criminal and terrorist operations in Latin America on Cuba's behalf
under Manuel Piñeiro and the Americas Department. Among many accounts,
Masetti describes Cuba's role in a Puerto Rican terrorist group's bank
robbery in Connecticut and the delivery of the booty to Cuba.
Likewise, former Interior Ministry Colonel Filiberto Catiñeiras,
"Felo,"
was involved in the transfer to Cuba of US$46 million of ransom
obtained
by the Argentine terrorist group Montoneros for the release of two
brothers of a very wealthy family, Juan and Jorge Born. He reports
that
Cuban agents were ordereded to launder the ransom, which was later
deposited in banks of the former Czechoslovakia. He also tells of
having taken "Pepe" (Mario) Firmenich, leader of the Montoneros, to
meet
Yasser Arafat in Lebanon.

Castro's efforts to diffuse mounting evidence of his involvement in
drug trafficking is said to be behind what is known as "the Ochoa
affair." By many accounts, the 1989 internal purge was unleashed by
the
Castro brothers on high-ranking members of the regime to conveniently
use them as scapegoats at a time when the U.S. had irrefutable
evidence
of Cuba's role in the drug trade. Decorated Cuban General Arnaldo
Ochoa,
the de la Guardia brothers, Interior Minister Abrahantes, and many top
government officials at the Interior Ministry and Armed Forces where
executed or imprisoned for alleged drug trafficking and embezzlement
of
state funds. Reportedly, Castro had found an expedient way to deflect
responsibility because Ochoa, who was very popular, and the others had
become too cocky and empowered and were grumbling for perestroika and
glasnost following the reforms in the former Soviet Union. Yet,
defectors consistently report that Fidel and Raul were the ones
directing the drug trade. Ileana de la Guardia testified before the
U.S. Congress in 1999 that her father -Tony de la Guardia, who was
executed- had told her that Fidel Castro had several bank accounts to
which proceeds of drug trafficking operations were sent.

Money-laundering comes up repeatedly in the accounts of former regime
insiders. Jesús Marzo Fernández sustains that the business enterprises
under Castro's control, aside from providing him revenues, also serve
to
launder drug money. Rodríguez Mernier relates how former Panamanian
strongman, Manuel Noriega, would meet with Castro to discuss
money-laundering solutions for drug monies. Manuel de Beunza claims
that monies obtained by Cuba from drug trafficking were laundered
through Swiss banks by way of delivering old U.S. dollar bills in
exchange for credits to bank accounts held by Cuba. Former agent Otto
claims that there were people in the Intelligence Department of the
Interior Ministry specifically responsible for delivering money in
cash
overseas. Cuban Intelligence, he asserts, "uses its own diplomatic
currier system for this and other deliveries. The curriers don't even
know what is in the suitcases -they are sealed."
The money-laundering question was recently fueled by a May 2004 US
$100
million fine imposed on UBS -Union of Banques Suisses Investment Bank-
of Switzerland by the New York Federal Reserve. The fine was announced
in conjunction with the Swiss Federal Banking Commission and was
imposed
for violating the terms of an agreement to act as repository of U.S.
banknotes, as per the Extended Custodial Inventory Program (ECIP)).
This program allowed foreign and U.S.-owned banks that contracted with
the New York Federal Reserve Bank to be repositories of large
inventories of new U.S. bank notes in order to remove old bills in
circulation. UBS had been caught buying and selling U.S. dollars to
countries under U.S. sanctions - Iran, Libya, Yugoslavia, and Cuba-
and
filing fraudulent reports to conceal this activity. The transactions
with Cuba, totaling US$3.9 billion over a period of seven years, were
by
the largest by far. In essence, UBS had knowingly been accepting old
dollar bills from Cuba and, instead of exchanging them for new bills,
as
required, had been crediting accounts held by Cuba or unnamed sources
from Cuba and filing phony reports. Importantly, UBS has refused to
publicly reveal in whose name where the accounts controlled by Cuba,
alleging "client confidentiality." This is strange, as the obvious
holders of such accounts would be official entities of the Cuban
government -the Cuban Central Bank the most logical one.
A respected economist and expert in Cuban affairs, Ernesto Betancourt,
states that "Cuba cannot justify 600 or 700 million dollars annually
in
cash through tourism income. The tourists - Canadians, Europeans and
Latin Americans- buy their travel packages with credit cards at travel
agencies." As a result, the largest portion of this income cannot be
cash. Remittances from abroad would also be insufficient to explain
the
large volume of cash. That money is usually sent via wire transfers,
not paper money, and only a portion of remittances are carried into
Cuba
as cash in violation of U.S. embargo limits. In addition, total
remittances are estimated between US$450 million and $800 million
annually and are mostly absorbed into the economy by way of the
Tiendas
de Recuperación de Divisas, state-owned stores that sell goods only in
dollars. A large percentage of the recovered dollars would be used to
purchase imports and would be reflected in official Balance of Payment
accounts.
In October 2004 the Financial Action Task Force, an intergovernmental,
policy-making body whose purpose is to combat money laundering and
financing of terrorism, passed a new measure, Special Recommendation
IX,
that further tightened already important and binding regulations to
stop
cross-border movements of currency and monetary instruments related to
terrorist financing and money laundering and to confiscate such funds.
The Resolution also called for enhanced information sharing between
countries on the movement of illicit cash. Just one day later, Cuba's
Central Bank issued Resolution No. 80 to end the free circulation of
dollars on the island. As of November 8, 2004, the convertible Cuban
peso, the Cuban currency that circulates internally and trades at par
with the dollar, was to be used for domestic operations and euros and
other hard currency were to replace the dollar in foreign exchange
operations. All entities in Cuba accepting payment in dollars would
only
accept the convertible peso and a ten percent surcharge would be
levied
on the purchase of convertible pesos using U.S. dollars (surcharge
that
would not be imposed on the purchase of convertible pesos with other
currencies).
As per the Cuban government resolution, the move came in response to
new measures dictated by the U.S. government "directed at
systematically
hindering the flow of Cuba's external finances, which would provoke
grave damage and serious risks for our country. As part of this
policy,
the Bush administration has intensified pressure and threats on
foreign
banks to prevent the island from making deposits abroad..." The Cuban
regime's reaction seemed extreme. Both Castro and Cuba's Central Bank
President denied accusations of money laundering as "colossal lies"
that
are "part of the U.S. imperialist campaign against Cuba." Castro
declared that the measures were the response to the "acts of banditry
of
the empire" and vented with particular anger in long public ratings on
Cuban TV.

What does the Comandante do with his reserves?

Fidel rules over one of the poorest countries in the world, yet he
could well be, as a Cuba scholar suggests, the most powerful world
leader in terms of the discretion and lack of oversight over his
financial decisions. He can do what not even the political leaders of
wealthy and powerful countries or the CEO's of the world's richest
companies are able to. On his sole command, he can give away houses,
cars, and luxury goods to the Cuban ruling elite, donate hospitals,
airports, manufacturing plants, sugar mills, vaccines, and
humanitarian
assistance to other countries, provide scholarships to thousands of
students from around the world to study in Cuba, or offer medical
treatment -all expenses paid- to people from all over the world. He is
able to do all this without audits or accountability, regardless of
any
budgetary or fiscal considerations, beyond the constraints of any
laws,
and mostly outside the realm of national accounts.

Historical examples abound of Cuba's financing and support of
international terrorism, subversion, and liberation movements.
Propaganda and public relations, including bribing world leaders, has
long been a priority for Castro -one that helps explain the regime's
disproportionate international influence. Historically, a huge amount
of resources has been spent on swaying international public opinion to
further Castro's political goals and cultivating the support of
influential international figures in all fields.

Huge sums are also involved in Castro's personal security and travels
inside Cuba, although specifics regarding how this is funded are
lacking
from defectors and remain unclear by looking at Cuba's financial
statistics. The cost of his foreign travels is enormous. Castro's
former bodyguard reported that 200 bodyguards and a medical team
accompany Castro on his trips abroad. / Likewise, there seems to be
no limit to the resources available to Fidel Castro, whether for his
pet
projects or his personal security and enjoyment. Although top members
of the nomenklatura enjoy privileges unavailable to the population,
the
lifestyle of Fidel and Raul's families and their access to all sorts
of
goods and services inaccessible to the Cuban population is unrivaled.
Yet, they together with the highest members of the government elite
have
strict orders to avoid appearing ostentatious and to stay out of the
limelight. Rampant excess by former insiders such as former Minister
of the Interior Jose Abrahantes and the de la Guardia brothers, was
widely reported in the seventies and eighties, and was tied to
activities at the MC Department and the initial CIMEX. But, after they
were purged, the most outlandish practices at the top of the power
ladder have apparently been greatly curtailed.

Keeping things under control
The business conglomerates are all managed by the Castro brothers,
within their family or by their most trusted people. CIMEX's
President,
for example, is Eduardo Bencomo Zurdos, a doctor who took care of
Fidel
Castro for years and is considered a very loyal personal friend.
Generally, only high-ranking military and intelligence officers are
put
in charge of business operations. CIMEX officers are recruited from
the
Armed Forces or the Ministry of the Interior and the Communist Youth
Union and must be recommended by at least three individuals considered
by the government as deserving of the highest degree of trust. This
not only bolsters the Castro brothers discretion over operation and
funds, but also guarantees regime survival by providing its most
dependable soldiers access to the lucrative aspects of it capitalistic
forays and alleviating problems of morale and conflict within the
military and cementing loyalty. It also guarantees a source of funding
for its Armed Forces after the end of Soviet assistance. In words of
one
analyst, "the regime has assured their loyalty, institutional economic
self-sufficiency and a direct link between their economic wellbeing
and
the survival of the Revolution."
Closing the circle, to guarantee Fidel Castro's personal command over
all decisions in the country, is the "Equipo de Coordinación y Apoyo
al
Comandande en Jefe," designated by the C.I.A. as the "Coordination and
Support Staff", or "GCA." The GCA is a parallel structure of
government
composed of six carefully chosen individuals charged with implementing
and executing Fidel Castro's wishes and directives. It skirts the
institutional structures of government and overrides all other
decisions, including those of government ministers. According to
Carlos
Cajaraville, a former intelligence officer: "The group was the direct
thread between the different economic sectors and the Comandante."
To keep things in check, Cuba has a gigantic internal repressive
apparatus that is said to cost hundreds of millions of dollars. The
police state at Castro's command has perfected a highly sophisticated
and effective machinery of repression to monitor and control all
citizens, foreign visitors, and businesspeople, as well as even the
highest members of the ruling elite. This has been amply described by
former regime higher ups, including General Rafael del Pino. Raúl
Castro's son-in-law Major Luis Alberto Rodriguez Lopez Callejas, who
is
head of GAESA, also heads the MINFAR's (Armed Forces Ministry) Section
V, the unit in charge of the Armed Forces' economic activity, as well
as
Department VI, located on the fourth floor of the Armed Forces
Ministry.
This division monitors and controls all GAESA operations, including
policing, spying, taping and recording all GAESA personnel activities.
Cubans posing as business owners and managers for the Cuban
enterprises
abroad are kept under close surveillance by intelligence officers
deployed as diplomats or in other capacities. Manuel Beunza, for
example, describes a lingering fear of overstepping boundaries that
would affect his family with him in Canada or those left behind in
Cuba.
Although a degree of personal enrichment and bleeding from state
enterprises seems to be part of the arrangement for those at the
highest
levels of power, purges for corruption are common when government
officials become "too greedy" or keep large transactions under wraps.
Some coincide with reports of disaffection or criticism of the regime
or
of Castro synchronized with an urgent need to cover up drug
trafficking
operations when international authorities uncover unimpeachable Cuban
involvement. The 1989 purge of the Ministry of the Interior and Armed
Forces under the command of General Ochoa is the better known
incident.
Nevertheless, there have been many others. In 1982, Chilean Max
Marambio, until then heading some of CIMEX's illegal businesses such
as
drug trafficking, was removed for corruption. Antonio de la Guardia
and
Jose Luis Padrón were fired from their high-level CIMEX jobs in 1985
when they were discovered to have used US$60 million that was to be in
deposit in a Swiss bank for other unauthorized business transactions.
In 2003, several senior officials of the tourism enterprise Cubanacán,
including its President Juan Jose Vega, were demoted, accused of
corruption, and placed under house arrest. Millions of dollars were
said
to be missing. A dozen CIMEX executives, including the head of foreign
business management of MINCEX and the Cuban manager of the Spanish
firm
Provimar S.A., were also reportedly demoted and prosecuted during the
purge. A source within CIMEX leaked details of the scandal and stated:
"Now they are after the scapegoats to protect the fat cats of the
nomenklatura and the foreign businessmen. The purge in the tourism and
foreign sector continued during 2004, with 26 individuals arrested in
Camagüey alone for corruption, including the general managers of the
Gran Antillana and La Vajilla stores and the warehouse manager of the
latter.
Conclusion
To keep Fidel, Inc. running efficiently, profitably, and successfully
it
is critical -as in all capitalist ventures- to have a clear vision, to
implement a coherent strategy, to offer products that sell thanks to
winning marketing techniques, and to maintain effective operational
systems and management controls. Fidel Inc. is gigantic enterprise
posed to remain extraordinarily successful as long as those
fundamentals
remain in place.

http://lanic.utexas.edu/project/asce/pdfs/volume15/pdfs/werlau.pdf

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-26 23:03:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere
speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal
fortune.
You, idiot. The mere fact that he is a totalitarian dictator who can do
whatever, whenever with people and state properties
"Fact," Rolfie? That is your opinion. In my opinion, Cuba is more
democratic than the US ever was.
(snip)
Cuba is no democracy.http://www.cubaverdad.net/democracy.htm
A democracy needs freedom of speech to start with.http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm
Cuba has a repressive totalitarian system:http://www.cubaverdad.net/totalitarian_system.htm
Post by Dan Christensen
By all credible accounts I have read, Fidel lives modestly.
You mean by the lying propaganda.
Insiders of the Castro clan have disproved that lie though,
Have a look at the videos made by the ex-girlfriend of his son comrade
Dan.
He lives lavishly in a mansion with swimming pool, helipad, .....
He send his bodyguards to buy cured ham in Spain and dogs in Germany.
His family has access to over 300 cars for the household.
Videotapes show Castro living luxurious life
By Oliver Poole
LONDON DAILY TELEGRAPH
LOS ANGELES - Fidel Castro's luxurious lifestyle has been revealed in
home videotapes smuggled out of Cuba by a former girlfriend of one of
his
sons.
The videos, which show the communist leader preparing for a sumptuous
banquet and lounging on leather sofas in his villa in Havana, give the
first
peek into the residence that most Cubans have never seen.
Ooooooooo... leather chairs!!! Get real, Mr. Lobbyist!

Much to your chagrin, Cuba's head of state does host many banquets for
visiting dignitaries. At these banquets, I recall reports saying he
eats only grapefruit and yogurt. And yes, they actually serve food of
a passable standard for guests!
Post by PL
State media are banned from reporting on his family or homes in the
family compound because of Mr. Castro's fear of assassination.
Only his eldest son, Fidel Jr., has appeared at his side and has a
government job. It is not even known how many children the leader has,
though it is believed there are seven, including two with his
mistresses.
The tapes, segments of which were broadcast for the first time on the
California Spanish-language channel Univision on Monday night, were
taken
from the island by Dashiell Torralba, who had a two-year relationship
with
Mr. Castro's son, Antonio, an orthopedic surgeon.
The 27-year-old woman, who is now in hiding in an undisclosed Latin
American country, told the channel she stole the videos as revenge on
the
76-year-old dictator's wife, Dalia.
Miss Torralba said that Mrs. Castro broke up the two-year romance
because she is the niece of Diocles Torralba, a former transport
minister
imprisoned in 1998 on corruption charges.
The tapes last a total of 40 minutes and are believed to have been
mainly shot by Mr. Castro's adult children. The series, titled "The
Secret
Life of Fidel Castro," depicts his main residential compound, Punto
Cero, or
Point Zero, in western Havana.
Monday's episode showed Mr. Castro dressed casually before a banquet,
inspecting the elaborate dinnerware on the dinner table, his
grandchildren
playing with relatives and Antonio zooming along the patio on an
electric
scooter.
It pictures the spacious compound and carefully landscaped garden and
reveals that many of the family are wearing designer clothes.
[snip]

Apart from living in an official residence as any president or prime-
minister would, there is no indication of lavish personal spending --
certainly not as the term is understood in North America or Europe.
Post by PL
Why Fidel Castro burns his underpants, by aide who defected
By Rupert Cornwell in Washington
Published: 25 March 2006
When you've held uninterrupted power for almost half a century, a dash
of paranoia and self-indulgence is inevitable. Which is why,
presumably,
Fidel Castro has his underwear burnt after use, and sends aides across
the Atlantic to spend a small fortune on Spanish cured ham.
Such are the latest details on the world's longest surviving head of
state and government, as provided by one of his former personal
assistants, Delphin Fernandez. The picture that emerges is of a man
obsessed with his health, his security and with personal details of
foreign businessmen planning to invest in Cuba.
Mr Fernandez is perhaps a biased witness, who makes a living in Miami
from a TV show where he dishes the dirt on Fidel and his brother and
probable successor Raul.
[snip]

Only perhaps???? Get real!
Post by PL
Fidel Castro, Inc.: A Global Conglomerate
By Maria C. Werlau
Introduction
Since 1997, Forbes magazine has featured Fidel Castro in its annual
Billionaires' edition as one of the richest rulers in the world.
Initially, Forbes assigned to Castro a share of Cuba's reported GDP
(gross domestic product) for the previous year, which yielded a
fortune
of approximately $150 million.
[snip]

And as we saw last week, Forbes STILL has nothing but speculation and
rumour to support their outrageous claims. Unlike your other sources
here, however, at least Forbes is honest enough to admit it.

And I see you STILL have no proof, despite the best efforts of you,
your CIA colleagues and others to find any evidence that Fidel has
even ONE DOLLAR in any foreign bank account. He has publicly offered
to resign if they could. And strangely, no takers so far. What's the
story on that, Mr. Lobbyist?

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-26 23:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere
speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal
fortune.
You, idiot. The mere fact that he is a totalitarian dictator who can do
whatever, whenever with people and state properties
"Fact," Rolfie? That is your opinion. In my opinion, Cuba is more
democratic than the US ever was.
(snip)
Cuba is no democracy.http://www.cubaverdad.net/democracy.htm
A democracy needs freedom of speech to start with.http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm
Cuba has a repressive totalitarian system:http://www.cubaverdad.net/totalitarian_system.htm
Post by Dan Christensen
By all credible accounts I have read, Fidel lives modestly.
You mean by the lying propaganda.
Insiders of the Castro clan have disproved that lie though,
Have a look at the videos made by the ex-girlfriend of his son comrade
Dan.
He lives lavishly in a mansion with swimming pool, helipad, .....
He send his bodyguards to buy cured ham in Spain and dogs in Germany.
His family has access to over 300 cars for the household.
Videotapes show Castro living luxurious life
By Oliver Poole
LONDON DAILY TELEGRAPH
LOS ANGELES - Fidel Castro's luxurious lifestyle has been revealed in
home videotapes smuggled out of Cuba by a former girlfriend of one of
his
sons.
The videos, which show the communist leader preparing for a sumptuous
banquet and lounging on leather sofas in his villa in Havana, give the
first
peek into the residence that most Cubans have never seen.
Ooooooooo... leather chairs!!! (snip)
the lie is exposed Dan.
castro get delicacies from all over the world while 7% of the Cuban
people need WFP food aid.
Post by PL
State media are banned from reporting on his family or homes in the
family compound because of Mr. Castro's fear of assassination.
Only his eldest son, Fidel Jr., has appeared at his side and has a
government job. It is not even known how many children the leader has,
though it is believed there are seven, including two with his
mistresses.
The tapes, segments of which were broadcast for the first time on the
California Spanish-language channel Univision on Monday night, were
taken
from the island by Dashiell Torralba, who had a two-year relationship
with
Mr. Castro's son, Antonio, an orthopedic surgeon.
The 27-year-old woman, who is now in hiding in an undisclosed Latin
American country, told the channel she stole the videos as revenge on
the
76-year-old dictator's wife, Dalia.
Miss Torralba said that Mrs. Castro broke up the two-year romance
because she is the niece of Diocles Torralba, a former transport
minister
imprisoned in 1998 on corruption charges.
The tapes last a total of 40 minutes and are believed to have been
mainly shot by Mr. Castro's adult children. The series, titled "The
Secret
Life of Fidel Castro," depicts his main residential compound, Punto
Cero, or
Point Zero, in western Havana.
Monday's episode showed Mr. Castro dressed casually before a banquet,
inspecting the elaborate dinnerware on the dinner table, his
grandchildren
playing with relatives and Antonio zooming along the patio on an
electric
scooter.
It pictures the spacious compound and carefully landscaped garden and
reveals that many of the family are wearing designer clothes.
[snip]
Apart from living in an official residence as any president or prime-
minister would, there is no indication of lavish personal spending --
except for the Spanish ham, the German dogs, the 300 cars, ... you mean?
Post by PL
Why Fidel Castro burns his underpants, by aide who defected
By Rupert Cornwell in Washington
Published: 25 March 2006
When you've held uninterrupted power for almost half a century, a dash
of paranoia and self-indulgence is inevitable. Which is why,
presumably,
Fidel Castro has his underwear burnt after use, and sends aides across
the Atlantic to spend a small fortune on Spanish cured ham.
Such are the latest details on the world's longest surviving head of
state and government, as provided by one of his former personal
assistants, Delphin Fernandez. The picture that emerges is of a man
obsessed with his health, his security and with personal details of
foreign businessmen planning to invest in Cuba.
Mr Fernandez is perhaps a biased witness, who makes a living in Miami
from a TV show where he dishes the dirt on Fidel and his brother and
probable successor Raul.
[snip]
Only perhaps???? Get real!
the facts are confirmed by the ex girlfriend of Castro's son
Post by PL
Fidel Castro, Inc.: A Global Conglomerate
By Maria C. Werlau
Introduction
Since 1997, Forbes magazine has featured Fidel Castro in its annual
Billionaires' edition as one of the richest rulers in the world.
Initially, Forbes assigned to Castro a share of Cuba's reported GDP
(gross domestic product) for the previous year, which yielded a
fortune
of approximately $150 million.
[snip]
And as we saw last week, Forbes STILL has nothing but speculation
actually: they have corroborated proof from Castro insiders.
On video with facts on Castro's son's corruption:



http://www.youtube.com/user/BF26A4F468341A4F
http://www.youtube.com/user/BF26A4F468341A4F

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:


Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.

We both know you can't.



Try something like this:



Quote:

"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.

.......

These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and

Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



Unquote.



You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty International,
Genocide Watch, ..........



Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.

That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.



As I said comrade Dan: every time you post that lie about me I post the
truth about you.



Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).

This was your false claim: "Taking a little break from arm-twisting in
Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"

Link:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8



Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.



Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:



YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith

"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting of
your beloved embargo."

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en



HIS own words:



'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,''
Smith said during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the
United States: Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and
Solutions.

''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm

You can enter after a free registration.



Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823



YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.

Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.



Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report that:



"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html



Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?

Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED)?



"in 1.

"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional release."



In 8.1

" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners previously
named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.



" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is detained
or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their rights to
freedom of expression, association and assembly."



and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:



" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"



that sentence:

1. isn't in the report

2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report



You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro regime
and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.



What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:



"Amnesty International calls on the United States government

- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.

- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.

- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the forefront
of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."



Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.

The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".



See:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.



PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-27 04:30:45 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 26, 6:19 pm, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother]
Post by PL
Post by PL
The videos, which show the communist leader preparing for a sumptuous
banquet and lounging on leather sofas in his villa in Havana, give the
first
peek into the residence that most Cubans have never seen.
Ooooooooo... leather chairs!!! (snip)
the lie is exposed Dan.
castro get delicacies from all over the world while 7% of the Cuban
people need WFP food aid.
[snip]

Sorry, Mr. Lobbyist, you are still lacking any credible sources to
support your outrageous claims. Some Miami TV personality, I'm afraid,
just doesn't cut it.
Post by PL
Apart from living in an official residence as any president or prime-
minister would, there is no indication of lavish personal spending --
except for the Spanish ham, the German dogs, the 300 cars, ... you mean?
Those sources again, Mr. Lobbyist....
Post by PL
Post by PL
Why Fidel Castro burns his underpants, by aide who defected
By Rupert Cornwell in Washington
Published: 25 March 2006
When you've held uninterrupted power for almost half a century, a dash
of paranoia and self-indulgence is inevitable. Which is why,
presumably,
Fidel Castro has his underwear burnt after use, and sends aides across
the Atlantic to spend a small fortune on Spanish cured ham.
Such are the latest details on the world's longest surviving head of
state and government, as provided by one of his former personal
assistants, Delphin Fernandez. The picture that emerges is of a man
obsessed with his health, his security and with personal details of
foreign businessmen planning to invest in Cuba.
Mr Fernandez is perhaps a biased witness, who makes a living in Miami
from a TV show where he dishes the dirt on Fidel and his brother and
probable successor Raul.
[snip]
Only perhaps???? Get real!
the facts are confirmed by the ex girlfriend of Castro's son
Your "facts" have never been confirmed by any reliable sources, Mr.
Lobbyist.
Post by PL
Post by PL
Fidel Castro, Inc.: A Global Conglomerate
By Maria C. Werlau
Introduction
Since 1997, Forbes magazine has featured Fidel Castro in its annual
Billionaires' edition as one of the richest rulers in the world.
Initially, Forbes assigned to Castro a share of Cuba's reported GDP
(gross domestic product) for the previous year, which yielded a
fortune
of approximately $150 million.
[snip]
And as we saw last week, Forbes STILL has nothing but speculation
actually: they have corroborated proof from Castro insiders.
They have "corroborated" nothing. To their credit, even they admit
their outrageous claims based on nothing more than speculation and
rumour. (See PL's recent postings from Forbes at SCC.) Your should
learn from the example. It would a long way to you establishing some
credibility here.
Post by PL
On video with facts on Castro's son's http://youtu.be/V7oK3zj1vd4
Nothing very convincing here, Mr. Lobbyist. The video doesn't prove
anything -- certainly not that Fidel lives lavishly by international
standards. Apart from being set in an official residence for a head of
state, you could produce the same video in most middle-class homes in
North America. I recall some Miami commentators at the time dismissing
this video as Cuban "propaganda" meant to portray Fidel as just a
"regular guy." As for the commenatators -- your so-called "Castro
insiders" -- from what I can tell, they all seem to some kind of
political axe to grind. You really will have to do better than this.
It really is no wonder Forbes has been reduced to citing mere
speculation and rumour in their annual reviews when it comes to Fidel.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-27 09:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother]
Post by PL
Post by PL
The videos, which show the communist leader preparing for a sumptuous
banquet and lounging on leather sofas in his villa in Havana, give the
first
peek into the residence that most Cubans have never seen.
Ooooooooo... leather chairs!!! (snip)
the lie is exposed Dan.
castro get delicacies from all over the world while 7% of the Cuban
people need WFP food aid.
[snip]
Sorry, Mr. Lobbyist, you are still lacking any credible sources to
support your outrageous claims.
for the fact that 7% of the Cuban people need WFP food aid: see www.wfp.org
The proof of the lavish lifestyle has been given by the articles
quoting insiders and the videos showing the Castro family.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Apart from living in an official residence as any president or prime-
minister would, there is no indication of lavish personal spending --
except for the Spanish ham, the German dogs, the 300 cars, ... you mean?
Those sources again, Mr. Lobbyist....
insiders of the Castro family, Dan
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by PL
Why Fidel Castro burns his underpants, by aide who defected
By Rupert Cornwell in Washington
Published: 25 March 2006
When you've held uninterrupted power for almost half a century, a dash
of paranoia and self-indulgence is inevitable. Which is why,
presumably,
Fidel Castro has his underwear burnt after use, and sends aides across
the Atlantic to spend a small fortune on Spanish cured ham.
Such are the latest details on the world's longest surviving head of
state and government, as provided by one of his former personal
assistants, Delphin Fernandez. The picture that emerges is of a man
obsessed with his health, his security and with personal details of
foreign businessmen planning to invest in Cuba.
Mr Fernandez is perhaps a biased witness, who makes a living in Miami
from a TV show where he dishes the dirt on Fidel and his brother and
probable successor Raul.
[snip]
Only perhaps???? Get real!
the facts are confirmed by the ex girlfriend of Castro's son
Your "facts" have never been confirmed by any reliable sources, Mr.
Lobbyist.
False.
I have even posted videos made by the girlfriend,
Are you claiming the video is a fraud?
Get real Dan.
You see the guy living in style.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by PL
Fidel Castro, Inc.: A Global Conglomerate
By Maria C. Werlau
Introduction
Since 1997, Forbes magazine has featured Fidel Castro in its annual
Billionaires' edition as one of the richest rulers in the world.
Initially, Forbes assigned to Castro a share of Cuba's reported GDP
(gross domestic product) for the previous year, which yielded a
fortune
of approximately $150 million.
[snip]
And as we saw last week, Forbes STILL has nothing but speculation
actually: they have corroborated proof from Castro insiders.
They have "corroborated" nothing. T
(snip)

false.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
On video with facts on Castro's son's http://youtu.be/V7oK3zj1vd4
Nothing very convincing here, M
Very convincing Dan.
Anyone can see it.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar: (now
with
the addtion of the latest website lie)

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary
measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your
lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith
said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United
States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in
to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on
Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate
and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause:
a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

In his last "round of lies" he added a picture of a plane to his nsite
trying to make people think it illustrates the military nature of the
BTTR
planes.
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ220.html
The plane shows and its paint job are from a plane owned by a private
person
with no links to the group.
On the date menstioned in 1996 he was already the owner and the
picture
shown is from 1998 when he was the owner.
The date of purchase and subsequent registration can be found on this
website under the header: Certificate Issue: 8/24/1995
http://www.planedesire.com/aircraft/desire/N2432S/details.html

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-28 05:02:57 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 27, 4:28 am, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
On video with facts on Castro's son's http://youtu.be/V7oK3zj1vd4
Nothing very convincing here, M
Very convincing Dan.
Anyone can see it.
Only the dogmatically impaired like you and your mafia pals.

Again, apart from being set in an official residence of a head of
state, a similar video could be made in just about any middle-class
home in North America. Some guy riding around on a scooter you can buy
at Wal-Mart??? Get real! If this is really the best you can do, you
might as well concede the point, Mr. Lobbyist. It is no wonder Forbes
has been reduced to mere speculation and rumour on this matter! Like
you, they have no real proof, but a least they are honest about it.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-28 13:20:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
On video with facts on Castro's son's http://youtu.be/V7oK3zj1vd4
Nothing very convincing here, M
Very convincing Dan.
Anyone can see it.
Only the dogmatically impaired like you and your mafia pals.
Unlike you I don't suffer from that infliction.
But thanks for "aping" my choice of words.
Imitation is indeed the highest form of flattery.
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, apart from being set in an official residence of a head of
state, a similar video could be made in just about any middle-class
home in North America.
but ity was made in the opulent villa of the communist leader of a
country that claims to live "modestly" and "like the people" in a
country where 7% of the people get WFP assistance and where tghere is
a housing shortgae of 500,000 units.
The lie is exposed.
the man lives in a splendid mansion, has access to various others and
his table is filled with luxury items.
Not "living the Cuban way" at all.
Note that his son who was in the visa selling business also never went
to jail.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-28 19:34:03 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 28, 8:20 am, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, apart from being set in an official residence of a head of
state, a similar video could be made in just about any middle-class
home in North America.
but ity was made in the opulent villa of the communist leader of a
country that claims to live "modestly" and "like the people" in a
country where 7% of the people get WFP assistance and where tghere is
a housing shortgae of 500,000 units.
Again, there is no indication of a lavish lifestyle. Fidel lives in an
official residence because, much to your chagrin, he is the head of
state in Cuba. Get over it! You have no credible proof to back your
outrageous claims. Your "home video" was a bust. Even today, Forbes
concedes they STILL have nothing on Fidel but politically motivated
speculation and rumours. But at least they are honest about it. If you
are simply going to keep repeating your failed arguments here, and
have nothing new to add, do not expect a reply from me on this matter.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-28 21:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, apart from being set in an official residence of a head of
state, a similar video could be made in just about any middle-class
home in North America.
but ity was made in the opulent villa of the communist leader of a
country that claims to live "modestly" and "like the people" in a
country where 7% of the people get WFP assistance and where tghere is
a housing shortgae of 500,000 units.
Again, there is no indication of a lavish lifestyle.
except the fact that he sends people to buy cured ham in Spain and dogs in
Germany you mean?
What about the 300 cars?
How about the finr wines and full table in a mansion with swimming pool with
kids having all the toys they want in a country like Cuba?
The videos and testimonies expose your lies desperate dan.
You can't "snip and run", but it doesn't change the facts.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-29 03:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, apart from being set in an official residence of a head of
state, a similar video could be made in just about any middle-class
home in North America.
but ity was made in the opulent villa of the communist leader of a
country that claims to live "modestly" and "like the people" in a
country where 7% of the people get WFP assistance and where tghere is
a housing shortgae of 500,000 units.
Again, there is no indication of a lavish lifestyle. Fidel lives in an official residence because, much to your chagrin, he is the head of state in Cuba. Get over it! You have no credible proof to back your outrageous claims. Your "home video" was a bust.
except the fact that he sends people to buy cured ham in Spain and dogs in
Germany you mean?
What about the 300 cars?
How about the finr wines and full table in a mansion with swimming pool with
kids having all the toys they want in a country like Cuba?
All from questionable sources -- people with obvious political axes to
grind. Not even conservative, US-based Forbes Magazine, the self-
styled "capitalists' tool," seems to take them seriously. Much as they
would like to believe it, they are (as of last week) STILL relying on
nothing more than speculation and rumours, which, to their credit,
they freely admit. (See PL's recent posting on their latest non-report
on Fidel.)

Anyway, it seems you have been reduced once again to mindlessly
repeating your failed arguments here, desperately hoping that no one
has noticed. If you have nothing new and relevant to add, do not
expect a reply from me on this matter.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-29 10:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, apart from being set in an official residence of a head of
state, a similar video could be made in just about any middle-class
home in North America.
but ity was made in the opulent villa of the communist leader of a
country that claims to live "modestly" and "like the people" in a
country where 7% of the people get WFP assistance and where tghere is
a housing shortgae of 500,000 units.
Again, there is no indication of a lavish lifestyle. Fidel lives in an official residence because, much to your chagrin, he is the head of state in Cuba. Get over it! You have no credible proof to back your outrageous claims. Your "home video" was a bust.
except the fact that he sends people to buy cured ham in Spain and dogs in
Germany you mean?
What about the 300 cars?
How about the fine wines and full table in a mansion with swimming pool with
kids having all the toys they want in a country like Cuba?
All from questionable sources -
(snip)

all from sources very close to Fidel Castro and with video to back it
up.
The only "questionable" thing here is your denial of reality.

PL
Rolf R
2007-11-26 14:24:47 UTC
Permalink
In article
<6e732527-b62c-417d-9065-***@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
Dan Christensen <***@netcom.ca> wrote:
It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of logic, but you do not
use it.

Check this out at UTUBE






Rolf R
2007-11-26 14:30:49 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
By all credible accounts I have read, Fidel lives modestly. If you
have evidence to the contrary, please post it here.
Check this out, if you have a tiny bit of honesty.

http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-castro-
f3/
Bufozzo
2007-11-26 14:35:00 UTC
Permalink
Bastaaaaaaaaa ! ! ! ! !

No crosposteees mas a SCA , la reconcha de tu madre ! ! !

Me tienen lo huevos llenos estos operadores de mierda.
Al filtro con el imbécil este.
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
By all credible accounts I have read, Fidel lives modestly. If you
have evidence to the contrary, please post it here.
Check this out, if you have a tiny bit of honesty.
http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-castro-
f3/
f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
2007-11-26 15:09:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere
speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal
fortune.
You, idiot. The mere fact that he is a totalitarian dictator who can
do whatever, whenever with people and state properties would be enough
for even a man mentally handicap to understand he owns the whole
island.
The facts disprove what you're saying. After the fall of the Soviet
Union, Cuba was faced with difficult economic challanges. The
government gave the expected, 'We'll all have to tighten out belts."
speech, but the Cuban people, through their democratic process
said, "No." and told the government to go back and figure out another
way. The Cuban government did what the people told them and cut the
size of the Cuban armed forces to one third of it's previous size and
preserved the quality of life. That's Cuban democracy in action.
By the way, nothing like that could ever happen in the U.S.

--
Regards, Fred
<http://www.fredwilliams.ca/thesecretofmoney.html>
PL
2007-11-26 17:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere
speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal
fortune.
You, idiot. The mere fact that he is a totalitarian dictator who can
do whatever, whenever with people and state properties would be enough
for even a man mentally handicap to understand he owns the whole
island.
The facts disprove what you're saying. After the fall of the Soviet
Union, Cuba was faced with difficult economic challanges.
you mean the subsidies that maintained the ineffective system (25% of
GDP) and with which the regime paid it's "achievements" fell away.
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The
government gave the expected, 'We'll all have to tighten out belts."
speech, but the Cuban people, through their democratic process
said, "No." and told the government to go back and figure out another
way.
actually: the regime imposed the "special period" on the people and
started scrambling for money to survive.
It even imposed an apartheid system on the people,
Caloric intake fell far even further below pre-Castro times

PL
f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
2007-11-27 03:04:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere
speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal
fortune.
You, idiot. The mere fact that he is a totalitarian dictator who
can do whatever, whenever with people and state properties would be
enough for even a man mentally handicap to understand he owns the
whole island.
The facts disprove what you're saying. After the fall of the Soviet
Union, Cuba was faced with difficult economic challanges.
you mean the subsidies that maintained the ineffective system (25% of
GDP) and with which the regime paid it's "achievements" fell away.
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The
government gave the expected, 'We'll all have to tighten out belts."
speech, but the Cuban people, through their democratic process
said, "No." and told the government to go back and figure out
another way.
actually: the regime imposed the "special period" on the people and
started scrambling for money to survive.
It even imposed an apartheid system on the people,
Caloric intake fell far even further below pre-Castro times
It was called the "Special Period" because it was a period where they
lost a lot of their trade income and supplies that are not made in
Cuba. It amplified the effect of the genocidal embargo placed on them
by the U.S.A. There was no apartheid in Cuba at this time nor has
there bee since the revolution began.
--
--
Regards, Fred
<http://www.fredwilliams.ca/thesecretofmoney.html>
PL
2007-11-27 11:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by Rolf R
In article
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere
speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal
fortune.
You, idiot. The mere fact that he is a totalitarian dictator who
can do whatever, whenever with people and state properties would be
enough for even a man mentally handicap to understand he owns the
whole island.
The facts disprove what you're saying. After the fall of the Soviet
Union, Cuba was faced with difficult economic challanges.
you mean the subsidies that maintained the ineffective system (25% of
GDP) and with which the regime paid it's "achievements" fell away.
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The
government gave the expected, 'We'll all have to tighten out belts."
speech, but the Cuban people, through their democratic process
said, "No." and told the government to go back and figure out
another way.
actually: the regime imposed the "special period" on the people and
started scrambling for money to survive.
It even imposed an apartheid system on the people,
Caloric intake fell far even further below pre-Castro times
It was called the "Special Period" because it was a period where they
lost a lot of their trade income and supplies that are not made in
Cuba.
actually they only lost the direct and hidden subsidies
The "special period" is actually the "normal period" in which Cuba
fell back on it's highly inefficient economy.
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
It amplified the effect of the genocidal embargo placed on them
by the U.S.A.
There is no "genocidal embargo".
Castro is the one on genocide watch's list.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
There was no apartheid in Cuba at this time nor has
there bee since the revolution began.
False:
see the facts and links at:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/apartheid_in_cuba.htm

PL
f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
2007-11-27 13:24:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
It was called the "Special Period" because it was a period where they
lost a lot of their trade income and supplies that are not made in
Cuba.
actually they only lost the direct and hidden subsidies
The "special period" is actually the "normal period" in which Cuba
fell back on it's highly inefficient economy.
"Actually" this is a fantasy made up in the propaganda mills of the
CIA. The Cuban econmy is extremely efficient in order to keep all the
cuban people alive and in homes in the face of the genocidal embargo
placed on it by the most powerful nation on earth. (Well, maybe not the
most powerful anymore: The times they are a changin!)

Suggested reading:
<http://www.plenglish.com/>

--
Regards, Fred
<http://www.fredwilliams.ca/thesecretofmoney.html>
PL
2007-11-27 16:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
Post by PL
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
It was called the "Special Period" because it was a period where they
lost a lot of their trade income and supplies that are not made in
Cuba.
actually they only lost the direct and hidden subsidies
The "special period" is actually the "normal period" in which Cuba
fell back on it's highly inefficient economy.
"Actually" this is a fantasy made up in the propaganda mills of the
CIA.
That is just a figment of your dogmatic paranoia.
The Soviet subsidies of 25% of GDP and the large loans granted
maintained a system that in economic terms didn't create the
"wealth" (as an economic concept) to pay for it's consumption.
The 25% of subsidies actually correspond about to all spending on
health and education at the time.
So no "achievements" of the revolution, just spending other people's
money.
When the subsidized trade and grants from the SU fell away the economy
lay "naked" which resulted in an immediate decline of the standard of
living.
Only the start of tourism and massive remittances from those you guys
call "gusanos" kept the country alive.

Table 4: Prevalence of undernourishment

Latin America and the Caribbean

Country Number of undernourished

(million) (%)

1979-81 1990-92 1995-97 1979-81 1990-92 1995-97

Cuba 0.3 0.3 2.1 3 3 19

http://www.fao.org/Regional/Lamerica/LARC/PDFing/006e.pdf

Year Cal,

1959 2682 - 2700
1961 2171
1970 2640
1980 2931
1990 3076
1991 2938
1992 2615
1993 2280
1994 2099
1995 2158
1996 2319
1997 2418
1998 2450
1999 2490

See: www.fao.org
http://apps.fao.org/lim500/wrap.pl?FoodBalanceSheet&Domain=FoodBalanceSheet&
and
http://www.cidh.oas.org/countryrep/Cuba83eng/chap.12.htm
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
The Cuban econmy is extremely efficient
the Cuban economy is a disaster
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
in order to keep all the
cuban people alive
as shown above: in hunger
The FAO data shows the even with Soviet subsidies 300,000 Cubans were
undernourished.

At least 13 percent of the population is clinically undernourished, as
the
state's food rationing system now provides for only a week to 10 days
of
basic nutritional needs each month. Rations began to shrink with the
start
of Cuba's so-called ``special period'' in the early '90s."
http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/6296592.htm

Today: 7% of the Cuban population still receives food aid. All located
in Oriente: that is over 20% of the population there.
http://www.wfp.org/country_brief/indexcountry.asp?country=192

What "efficiency"?

"The Government subsidized ration is a food basket distributed to the
general population monthly through special outlets. This ration
provides
1,378 Kcals and 45.8 grams of protein. The assessment mission observed
during the visit to the affected provinces that this food basket is
not
always available, with the most common missing items being meat, eggs,
oil
and chicken. The actual Government food basket distributed supplies
only 550
Kcals and 23 grams of protein. This is a reflection of the decline in
production [due to the drought in eastern Cuba] and the lack of hard
currency for food imports. This emergency operation is meant to
guarantee a
certain level of Kcal and proteins (see Annex III) to the most
vulnerable
groups in the affected provinces who have few coping mechanisms to
deal with
the shortfalls in the government rationing system."
Original location:
http://www.wfp.org/OP/Countries/cuba/emop6037.html
Now at:
http://www.reliefweb.int/library/appeals/cuba.pdf
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
and in homes
and without homes by it's own admission: Cuba lacks 500,000 houses.

At the same time, an official report said 43 per cent of Cuban homes
needed repair and the country of 11 million people had a deficit of
500,000 houses. In June, authorities said 1,7 million Cubans had no
running water due to a severe drought in eastern Cuba.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,16064115-23109,00.html

Despite guarantees, homelessness creeps into Cuba
Homeless family
A couple prepares to spend a night on a park bench with their toddler
in Havana
June 6, 2000
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/06/06/cuba.housing/
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
in the face of the genocidal embargo
No genocidal embargo Fred.
Only the Castro regime and it's apologists
Castro is the only genocidal one.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm

PL
Rolf R
2007-11-26 17:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
That's Cuban democracy in action.
That is what well "bullshit."
f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
2007-11-27 03:01:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolf R
Post by f***@fredwilliamsFFFf.ca
That's Cuban democracy in action.
That is what well "bullshit."
Now if you had a good Cuban education your grammer would be better too.

--
Regards, Fred
<http://www.fredwilliams.ca/thesecretofmoney.html>
PL
2007-11-25 22:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Dan Christensen
How odd then that even Forbes Magazine must resort to the use of
rumours
and speculation
Castro has a "residence" in lots of Cuban towns Dan.
Ask any Cuban.
You will have to do better than this
some pictures maybe?
Just Havana, Cojimar,
Varadero,http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas......
A bunch of random pictures at various anti-Cuban forums?
Nope.
Not anti-Cuban, Dan.
Forums where Cubans post data about Cuba.
Do you deny that Castro has houses all over Cuba?
There is nothing to deny. Until we see proof from credible sources to
support your outrageous claims, why should we take them seriously?
After all, your lies here are legendary.
Nope.
you are.
I exposed you years ago and even had pages of your website removed.
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine,
answer the question Mr. Hypocrite liar.
Do you deny that Castro has houses all over Cuba?

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-26 04:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Dan Christensen
How odd then that even Forbes Magazine must resort to the use of
rumours
and speculation
Castro has a "residence" in lots of Cuban towns Dan.
Ask any Cuban.
You will have to do better than this
some pictures maybe?
Just Havana, Cojimar,
Varadero,http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas......
A bunch of random pictures at various anti-Cuban forums?
Nope.
Not anti-Cuban, Dan.
Forums where Cubans post data about Cuba.
Do you deny that Castro has houses all over Cuba?
There is nothing to deny. Until we see proof from credible sources to
support your outrageous claims, why should we take them seriously?
After all, your lies here are legendary.
Nope.
you are.
I see you are still passing off that report rejected by the UNHRC as a
"UN assessment" at your lying website. When can we expect this and
other lies to be removed, Mr. Lobbyist?
Post by PL
I exposed you years ago and even had pages of your website removed.
In your genocidal wet dreams, Mr. Lobbyist! More than once, your lies
have even been personally exposed by your own sources. When will you
learn?
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal fortune. But at least they are honest about it. No one, not even your CIA colleagues, have taken him up on his challenge to resign if they can prove he has even one dollar in a foreign bank.
answer the question Mr. Hypocrite liar.
Do you deny that Castro has houses all over Cuba?
Taking a page out of Kenny's book? Never a good idea. Just give us the
proof! It seems you actually have no proof to support your outrageous
claims. Forget your silly little games here and get back to us when
you have all the facts -- from credible sources, that is. Don't bother
with Forbes. They have nothing but speculation and rumour, but at
least they are honest about it.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-26 12:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Dan Christensen
How odd then that even Forbes Magazine must resort to the use of
rumours
and speculation
Castro has a "residence" in lots of Cuban towns Dan.
Ask any Cuban.
You will have to do better than this
some pictures maybe?
Just Havana, Cojimar,
Varadero,http://secretoscuba.cultureforum.net/casas-y-propiedades-de-fidel-cas......
A bunch of random pictures at various anti-Cuban forums?
Nope.
Not anti-Cuban, Dan.
Forums where Cubans post data about Cuba.
Do you deny that Castro has houses all over Cuba?
There is nothing to deny. Until we see proof from credible sources to
support your outrageous claims, why should we take them seriously?
After all, your lies here are legendary.
Nope.
you are.
I see you are still passing off that report rejected by the UNHRC as a
"UN assessment"
which it is: it is the assessment of th UN rapporteur and his report
can be duly found on the UN website.
The fact that the recommendations of the report and other sanctions
were never implemented doesn't change anything to the facts he as UN
representative reported.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
I exposed you years ago and even had pages of your website removed.
In your genocidal wet dreams,
Nope.
You were forced by your ISP at OUR request to remove part of your
website because it violated the law and was a falsification.
That has been shown over and over again.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal fortune. But at least they are honest about it. No one, not even your CIA colleagues, have taken him up on his challenge to resign if they can prove he has even one dollar in a foreign bank.
answer the question Mr. Hypocrite liar.
Do you deny that Castro has houses all over Cuba?
Taking a page out of Kenny's book? Ne
No answer I see.
Try addressing issues for a change comrade Dan.
Castro has a series of houses at his disposal all over Cuba.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:



Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.

We both know you can't.



Try something like this:



Quote:

"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth
fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In
this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.

.......

These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this
time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to send
death
squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and

Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified
under the circumstances."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



Unquote.



You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........



Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.

That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.



As I said comrade Dan: every time you post that lie about me I post
the
truth about you.



Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that time
prove).

This was your false claim: "Taking a little break from arm-twisting
in
Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"

Link:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8



Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your
lies.



Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones
below:



YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith

"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he
does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting of your
beloved embargo."

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en



HIS own words:



'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith
said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United
States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.

''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm

You can enter after a free registration.



Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823



YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.

Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.



Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted
below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same report
that:



"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html



Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in
to it)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report, are they?

Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED)?



"in 1.

"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International
considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of conscience(2) and calls
for
their immediate and unconditional release."



In 8.1

" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously
named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.



" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or
imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their rights to
freedom of
expression, association and assembly."



and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
lying website:



" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on
Cuba in
humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"



that sentence:

1. isn't in the report

2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report



You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.



What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:



"Amnesty International calls on the United States government

- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the
embargo.

- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.

- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of
its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."



Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.

The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that
places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the forefront
of its
concerns".



See:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident
Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.



PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-26 23:28:12 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 26, 7:48 am, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
I see you are still passing off that report rejected by the UNHRC as a
"UN assessment"
which it is: it is the assessment of th UN rapporteur and his report
can be duly found on the UN website.
[snip]

It is NOT as you continue to say at your lying website, a "UN
assessment." Your own link exposes your lie. The report was rejected,
and the mandate of the rapporteur was immediately terminated.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
I exposed you years ago and even had pages of your website removed.
In your genocidal wet dreams,
Nope.
You were forced by your ISP at OUR request to remove part of your
website because it violated the law and was a falsification.
The only falsifcation was yours, Mr. Lobbyist. As with the case of Dr.
Thiede, you were spreading lies about a certain US medical expert --
who has asked to remain nameless -- deliberately taking his words out
of context, claiming he said Cuban health stats were falsified. He
wrote back to you (copy to me) exposing you for the desperate liar
that you are. (Just as Dr. Thiede personally exposed your lies about
him.) I posted this letter at my website. It was almost worth it to
see you squirm! At his request, however, I removed it, deciding it
wasn't worth giving you a platform for your lies. You are, after all,
a very small fish in a very large pond, Mr. Lobbyist. You have no
credibility as an commentator on Cuban matters, so there was no point
really.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal fortune. But at least they are honest about it. No one, not even your CIA colleagues, have taken him up on his challenge to resign if they can prove he has even one dollar in a foreign bank.
answer the question Mr. Hypocrite liar.
Do you deny that Castro has houses all over Cuba?
Taking a page out of Kenny's book? Ne
No answer I see.
[snip]

No proof, I see. As usual.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-27 10:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
I see you are still passing off that report rejected by the UNHRC as a
"UN assessment"
which it is: it is the assessment of th UN rapporteur and his report
can be duly found on the UN website.
[snip]
It is NOT as you continue to say at your lying website, a "UN
assessment." Your own link exposes your lie. The report was rejected,
Nope.
the report was duly presented to the UN bodies and NEVER rejected.
The fact that no sanctions were imposed for political reasons doesn't
mean the report was rejected Dan.
That is your lying spin on it.
Unlike most of Mr. Ziegler's reports this one is on the UN website.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
I exposed you years ago and even had pages of your website removed.
In your genocidal wet dreams,
Nope.
You were forced by your ISP at OUR request to remove part of your
website because it violated the law and was a falsification.
The only falsifcation was yours,
Nope.
I quoted his public record statement with a link.
Post by Dan Christensen
As with the case of Dr.
Thiede, you were spreading lies about a certain US medical expert --
Nope.
In both cases I posted the public record with links.
Their exact words.
As far as Dr. Thiede goes you claim to have "private information" that
contradicts his public statement but of course nobody but you has ever
seen it and given that you have in the past been caught making false
claims (see Genocide Watch) nobody can take your word for anything.
The American doctor joined me to force you to remove the lying page
you created after misleading him about being a journalist.
He accused you of violating his privacy, misrepresenting what he said
and referred to your website as "doing no good at all" and
"offensive",
That is why your ISP provider forced you to remove part of the
website,
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal fortune. But at
least they are honest about it. No one, not even your CIA colleagues,
(snip)

Slandering people with such lies only shows you have no facts to post
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
answer the question Mr. Hypocrite liar.
Do you deny that Castro has houses all over Cuba?
Taking a page out of Kenny's book? Ne
No answer I see.
[snip]
No proof, I see. As usual.
Already posted Dan.
Snipped by you as usual.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar: (now
with
the addtion of the latest website lie)

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary
measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your
lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith
said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United
States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in
to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on
Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate
and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause:
a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

In his last "round of lies" he added a picture of a plane to his nsite
trying to make people think it illustrates the military nature of the
BTTR
planes.
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ220.html
The plane shows and its paint job are from a plane owned by a private
person
with no links to the group.
On the date menstioned in 1996 he was already the owner and the
picture
shown is from 1998 when he was the owner.
The date of purchase and subsequent registration can be found on this
website under the header: Certificate Issue: 8/24/1995
http://www.planedesire.com/aircraft/desire/N2432S/details.html

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-28 04:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
I see you are still passing off that report rejected by the UNHRC as a
"UN assessment"
which it is: it is the assessment of th UN rapporteur and his report
can be duly found on the UN website.
[snip]
It is NOT as you continue to say at your lying website, a "UN
assessment." Your own link exposes your lie. The report was rejected,
Nope.
the report was duly presented to the UN bodies and NEVER rejected.
Your own link proves you are lying, Mr. Lobbyist. It shows that a
resolution commending the report and calling on the Cuban government
to implement its recommendations was defeated, and that the mandate of
the rapporteur (the author of the report) was terminated.
Post by PL
The fact that no sanctions were imposed for political reasons doesn't
mean the report was rejected Dan.
As they say, when the only tool in your chest is a hammer (genocidal
trade sanctions in your case), every problem looks like a nail. There
was no mention of sanctions in the resolution, idiot!
Post by PL
That is your lying spin on it.
Unlike most of Mr. Ziegler's reports this one is on the UN website.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
I exposed you years ago and even had pages of your website removed.
In your genocidal wet dreams,
Nope.
You were forced by your ISP at OUR request to remove part of your
website because it violated the law and was a falsification.
The only falsifcation was yours,
Nope.
I quoted his public record statement with a link.
You mean you misquoted and distorted his public statements, saying he
believed Cuban health stats to be falsified. His letter exposed you
for the desperate liar that you are.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
As with the case of Dr.
Thiede, you were spreading lies about a certain US medical expert --
Nope.
In both cases I posted the public record with links.
In both cases, you got your lying ass kicked big-time!
Post by PL
Their exact words.
As far as Dr. Thiede goes you claim to have "private information"
Information that anyone -- even you, Mr. Lobbyist -- can confirm by
writing to him. Yes, I know, you would rather not. Once bitten, twice
shy, eh, "Miss" Lobbyist? (Hee, hee!)
Post by PL
that
contradicts his public statement
His public statement, as you well know, was taken out of context. His
problems were with financial data in the health sector, not with
mortality stats and health indicators, which he said were actually
"quite rigorous." And as his online CV shows, his specialty is in fact
health economics. So, naturally he is concerned with financial data.
Yet another of your lies exposed!
Post by PL
but of course nobody but you has ever
seen it and given that you have in the past been caught making false
claims (see Genocide Watch) nobody can take your word for anything.
Poor, pathetic lobbyist...

Some time ago, I wrote to GW president, Gregory Stanton, pointing out
to him that no mainstream human rights group like Amnesty
International or Human Rights Watch will support the outrageous claims
at his website of some 75,000 deaths in Cuba. Readers can confirm this
for themselves at the AI website. He could not explain this, and
simply referred me to their only source on Cuba -- a book by US-based
academic, Rudy Rummell. Apparently GW has never actually investigated
anything at all to do with Cuba! There wasn't a single article devoted
to Cuba at their website -- only a large table listing dozens of
countries, perhaps for the purpose of impressing potential donors,
with a one-liner about Cuba. Readers can also confirm that this is
still the case at the GW website.

Anyway, some time late in 2005, they withdrew their outrageous claim.
I won't claim responsibility, but now they wisely decline to give any
specific figure at all -- progress of a sort, I guess.

Similarly the same year, the London-based International Centre for
Prison Studies, year also backed down on their outrageous claims about
Cuba. Now, they list the USA as having the highest incarceration rate
in the world, with Cuba a distant 8th. Must be frustrating as hell,
eh, Mr. Lobbyist?

Here is what HRW, as long ago as 1989, had to say about the
exaggerated claims of your political masters in Miami and Washington:

"...[T]he Commission's initial decision to review human rights in Cuba
was due in large part to exaggerated U.S. charges of ongoing political
executions, disappearances and torture... [T]he U.N. delegation to
Cuba found no evidence to support those allegations."
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1989/WR89/Cuba.htm
Post by PL
The American doctor joined me to force you to remove the lying page
you created after misleading him about being a journalist.
I misled no one. The lies were yours, Mr. Lobbyist. With the exception
of your lies about him, everything I posted about him, he himself had
already posted at other online forums.
Post by PL
He accused you of violating his privacy, misrepresenting what he said
and referred to your website as "doing no good at all" and
"offensive",
Referring again to your lies that he believed Cuban health stats to be
falsified -- just like your lies about Dr. Thiede.
Post by PL
That is why your ISP provider forced you to remove part of the
website,
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal fortune. But at
least they are honest about it. No one, not even your CIA colleagues,
(snip)
Slandering people with such lies only shows you have no facts to post
[snip]

Denying the facts won't make them go away, Mr. Lobbyist. And the fact
is you and your CIA colleagues have come up empty-handed again, are
are forced to rely on speculation and rumour on the matter of Fidel's
supposed personal fortune. You have been unable to prove that he has
even a single dollar in a foreign bank. He has even promised to resign
if you could do so.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-28 13:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
I see you are still passing off that report rejected by the UNHRC as a
"UN assessment"
which it is: it is the assessment of th UN rapporteur and his report
can be duly found on the UN website.
[snip]
It is NOT as you continue to say at your lying website, a "UN
assessment." Your own link exposes your lie. The report was rejected,
Nope.
the report was duly presented to the UN bodies and NEVER rejected.
Your own link proves you are lying,
Nope.
It shows that it is a valid UN report to which for political reasons
no following was given.
The UN rapporteur was thanked and a while later a new one was
appointed.
In no way his work was rejected.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
The fact that no sanctions were imposed for political reasons doesn't
mean the report was rejected Dan.
As they say, when the only tool in your chest is a hammer (genocidal
trade sanctions in your case),
(snip)

There are no genocidal trade sanctions and the UN duly appointed a new
rapporteur later.
In no way any of the report was refuted.
It was and is a valid UN report.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
That is your lying spin on it.
Unlike most of Mr. Ziegler's reports this one is on the UN website.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
I exposed you years ago and even had pages of your website removed.
In your genocidal wet dreams,
Nope.
You were forced by your ISP at OUR request to remove part of your
website because it violated the law and was a falsification.
The only falsifcation was yours,
Nope.
I quoted his public record statement with a link.
You mean you misquoted and distorted his public statements,
Nope.
As anyone can see I quoted them with a link.
You misquoted him on your website.
that is what pissed him off to such an extend he wanted your website
removed.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
As with the case of Dr.
Thiede, you were spreading lies about a certain US medical expert --
Nope.
In both cases I posted the public record with links.
In both cases, you got your lying ass kicked big-time!
Nope.
In the case of Dr. Thiede "your lying ass" provided nothing.
Smart as in the case of Genocide Watch what you "provided" as so
called "quotes" was exposed as a lie.
You couldn't even get the numbers right.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Their exact words.
As far as Dr. Thiede goes you claim to have "private information"
Information that anyone -- even you, Mr. Lobbyist -- can confirm by
writing to him.
and that he never has confirmed to anyone you mean.
get real Dan.
You can't refute the public record with private lies.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
that
contradicts his public statement
His public statement, as you well know, was taken out of context.
(snip)

Nope.
It was taken in context, verbally with a link to the source.
Something you never do.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
but of course nobody but you has ever
seen it and given that you have in the past been caught making false
claims (see Genocide Watch) nobody can take your word for anything.
Poor, pathetic lobbyist...
Some time ago, I wrote to GW president, Gregory Stanton, (snip)
Dan Christensen's exposed lie about Genocide Watch.

Dan falsely claimed the organization had copied (mindlessly) a number
from a
book by Rummel. Another case of false claims of "private
information".
Upon verification it became clear that Rummel quoted a figure of
73,000
deaths attributable to the Castro regime. Genocide Watch showed a
figure of
75,000 which comrade Dan promptly attributed to "sloppiness" in
copying.

Dan Christensen fails to understand that his private lies can't
refute the
public record.
He tried this one on a couple of times and always failed.

Do you deny Dan Christensen that you got the numbers wrong in your
lie and
that the "exclusive" source you falsely claimed was used by Genocide
Watch
(another "private" message) actually gave a LOWER figure than
Genocide
Watch?

I have clearly shown that your claim that Mr. Rummel is the one and
only
source Genocide Watch uses is false by proving that Mr. Rummel (whose
credibility you attack without proof) gives a different figure than
Genocide
Watch (73,000 versus 75,0000). Genocide Watch correctly lists Castro
as a
genocidal dictator because of his responsibility for the death of
thousands
of people.

When confronted with your lie you turned insult in to injury by
claiming the
"made an error in copying", didn't you?

As always: the links that expose Dan Christensen's lies:

Dan's lie:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/ff0ab4c53757e8a0?dmode=source&hl=en

My exposure of his lie:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/a44230458e76b3c7?dmode=source&hl=en

Dan's pathetic claim Genocide Watch made a mistake:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/8eeb4ad61f1463d4?dmode=source&hl=en
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
The American doctor joined me to force you to remove the lying page
you created after misleading him about being a journalist.
I misled no one.
Yes you did.
The man was furious when he saw your misreprentatitions.
He said you page server no purpose at all and had to be removed.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
He accused you of violating his privacy, misrepresenting what he said
and referred to your website as "doing no good at all" and
"offensive",
Referring again to your lies that he believed Cuban health stats to be
falsified -- just like your lies about Dr. Thiede.
Nope
He actually confirmed what he had said in public in his mails.
remember the "throw" remeak?
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
That is why your ISP provider forced you to remove part of the
website,
something you don't deny I see
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Again, even Forbes Magazine, in its despair, is reduced to mere speculation and rumour when it comes to Fidel's supposed personal fortune. But at
least they are honest about it. No one, not even your CIA colleagues,
(snip)
Slandering people with such lies only shows you have no facts to post
[snip]
Denying the facts won't make them go away,
that is something you should mearn Mr. Cyber Liar
Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist. And the fact
is you and your CIA colleagues
(snip)

Post your proof of the "CIA colleagues" Mr. Serial Liar.
We both know you can't and thanks for destroying your own credibility
all over again.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:



Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.

We both know you can't.



Try something like this:



Quote:

"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth
fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In
this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.

.......

These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this
time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to send
death
squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and

Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified
under the circumstances."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



Unquote.



You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........



Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.

That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.



As I said comrade Dan: every time you post that lie about me I post
the
truth about you.



Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that time
prove).

This was your false claim: "Taking a little break from arm-twisting
in
Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"

Link:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8



Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your
lies.



Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones
below:



YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith

"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he
does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting of your
beloved embargo."

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en



HIS own words:



'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith
said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United
States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.

''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm

You can enter after a free registration.



Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823



YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.

Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.



Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted
below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same report
that:



"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html



Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in
to it)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report, are they?

Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED)?



"in 1.

"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International
considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of conscience(2) and calls
for
their immediate and unconditional release."



In 8.1

" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously
named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.



" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or
imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their rights to
freedom of
expression, association and assembly."



and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
lying website:



" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on
Cuba in
humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"



that sentence:

1. isn't in the report

2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report



You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.



What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:



"Amnesty International calls on the United States government

- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the
embargo.

- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.

- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of
its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."



Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.

The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that
places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the forefront
of its
concerns".



See:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident
Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.



PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-28 19:07:03 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 28, 8:10 am, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
I see you are still passing off that report rejected by the UNHRC as a
"UN assessment"
which it is: it is the assessment of th UN rapporteur and his report
can be duly found on the UN website.
[snip]
It is NOT as you continue to say at your lying website, a "UN
assessment." Your own link exposes your lie. The report was rejected,
Nope.
the report was duly presented to the UN bodies and NEVER rejected.
Your own link proves you are lying,
Nope.
It shows that it is a valid UN report to which for political reasons
no following was given.
[snip]

It is not a UN report if it was rejected by the UN body (the UNHRC)
that commissioned it. Your own link proves that it was. And it was
never passed on to any other UN body. So, it is a lie to say, as you
do at your lying website, that it is "UN assessment."
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Poor, pathetic lobbyist...
Some time ago, I wrote to GW president, Gregory Stanton, (snip)
Dan Christensen's exposed lie about Genocide Watch.
Dan falsely claimed the organization had copied (mindlessly) a number
from a
book by Rummel. Another case of false claims of "private
information".
Upon verification it became clear that Rummel quoted a figure of
73,000
deaths attributable to the Castro regime. Genocide Watch showed a
figure of
75,000 which comrade Dan promptly attributed to "sloppiness" in
copying.
[snip]

Poor, pathetic little "Miss" Lobbyist... Just the thought of
confirming another source makes here poop her little pink panties! She
would much rather play it safe with her silly little girlish games
here, than risk getting her fat butt kicked again. Once bitten, twice
shy, eh, "Miss" Lobbyist??? (Hee, hee!)

Anyway, if you still have not found those long-lost balls of yours,
and are still not man enough to write to Mr. Stanton
(***@aol.com), to confirm his sources for these outrageous
claims, do not expect a reply from me on this matter. Not that if
really matters at this at this point, since as you yourself have
confirmed, these outrageous claims were quietly yanked from the GW
website some time ago.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist. And the fact
is you and your CIA colleagues have come up empty-handed again, are are forced to rely on speculation and rumour on the matter of Fidel's supposed personal fortune. You have been unable to prove that he has even a single dollar in a foreign bank. He has even promised to resign if you could do so.
(snip)
Post your proof of the "CIA colleagues" Mr. Serial Liar.
[snip]

Post your proof that you and your CIA colleagues have found that Fidel
has even one dollar in any foreign bank. We know you can't. So, quit
trying to divert readers' attention with your silly games here.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-28 21:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
I see you are still passing off that report rejected by the
UNHRC as a
"UN assessment"
which it is: it is the assessment of th UN rapporteur and his report
can be duly found on the UN website.
[snip]
It is NOT as you continue to say at your lying website, a "UN
assessment." Your own link exposes your lie. The report was rejected,
Nope.
the report was duly presented to the UN bodies and NEVER rejected.
Your own link proves you are lying,
Nope.
It shows that it is a valid UN report to which for political reasons
no following was given.
[snip]
It is not a UN report if it was rejected by the UN body
(snip)

which it wasn't.
They just didn't apply sanctions.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Poor, pathetic lobbyist...
Some time ago, I wrote to GW president, Gregory Stanton, (snip)
Dan Christensen's exposed lie about Genocide Watch.
Dan falsely claimed the organization had copied (mindlessly) a number
from a
book by Rummel. Another case of false claims of "private
information".
Upon verification it became clear that Rummel quoted a figure of
73,000
deaths attributable to the Castro regime. Genocide Watch showed a
figure of
75,000 which comrade Dan promptly attributed to "sloppiness" in
copying.
[snip]
Poor, pathetic little
(snip)

Moronic insults and snipping links doesn't change facts desperate Dan

Dan Christensen's exposed lie about Genocide Watch.

Dan falsely claimed the organization had copied (mindlessly) a number
from a
book by Rummel. Another case of false claims of "private
information".
Upon verification it became clear that Rummel quoted a figure of
73,000
deaths attributable to the Castro regime. Genocide Watch showed a
figure of
75,000 which comrade Dan promptly attributed to "sloppiness" in
copying.

Dan Christensen fails to understand that his private lies can't
refute the
public record.
He tried this one on a couple of times and always failed.

Do you deny Dan Christensen that you got the numbers wrong in your
lie and
that the "exclusive" source you falsely claimed was used by Genocide
Watch
(another "private" message) actually gave a LOWER figure than
Genocide
Watch?

I have clearly shown that your claim that Mr. Rummel is the one and
only
source Genocide Watch uses is false by proving that Mr. Rummel (whose
credibility you attack without proof) gives a different figure than
Genocide
Watch (73,000 versus 75,0000). Genocide Watch correctly lists Castro
as a
genocidal dictator because of his responsibility for the death of
thousands
of people.

When confronted with your lie you turned insult in to injury by
claiming the
"made an error in copying", didn't you?

As always: the links that expose Dan Christensen's lies:

Dan's lie:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/ff0ab4c53757e8a0?dmode=source&hl=en

My exposure of his lie:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/a44230458e76b3c7?dmode=source&hl=en

Dan's pathetic claim Genocide Watch made a mistake:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/8eeb4ad61f1463d4?dmode=source&hl=en
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Mr. Lobbyist. And the fact
is you and your CIA colleagues have come up empty-handed again, are are
forced to rely on speculation and rumour on the matter of Fidel's
supposed personal fortune. You have been unable to prove that he has
even a single dollar in a foreign bank. He has even promised to resign
if you could do so.
(snip)
Post your proof of the "CIA colleagues" Mr. Serial Liar.
[snip]
Post your proof that you and your CIA colleagues
(snip)

No proof whatsoever I see.
thanks again for exposing yourself as a pathetic liar Dan Christensen.


Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:



Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.

We both know you can't.



Try something like this:



Quote:

"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well worth
fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures. In
this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.

.......

These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At this
time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to send death
squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and

Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally justified
under the circumstances."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



Unquote.



You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty International,
Genocide Watch, ..........



Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.

That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.



As I said comrade Dan: every time you post that lie about me I post the
truth about you.



Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that time prove).

This was your false claim: "Taking a little break from arm-twisting in
Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"

Link:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8



Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.



Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the ones
below:



YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith

"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online) that he
does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting of your
beloved embargo."

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en



HIS own words:



'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.

''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm

You can enter after a free registration.



Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823



YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.

Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.



Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report quoted
below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same report that:



"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html



Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the trade
sanctions in that report, are they?

Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from these
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED)?



"in 1.

"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty International
considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of conscience(2) and calls for
their immediate and unconditional release."



In 8.1

" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners previously
named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.



" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is detained or
imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their rights to freedom of
expression, association and assembly."



and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on your
lying website:



" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba in
humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"



that sentence:

1. isn't in the report

2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report



You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT LIE.



What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:



"Amnesty International calls on the United States government

- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen the
embargo.

- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.

- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the forefront of
its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."



Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.

The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy that
places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the forefront of its
concerns".



See:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.



PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-29 03:31:25 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 28, 4:59 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
I see you are still passing off that report rejected by the
UNHRC as a
"UN assessment"
which it is: it is the assessment of th UN rapporteur and his report
can be duly found on the UN website.
[snip]
It is NOT as you continue to say at your lying website, a "UN
assessment." Your own link exposes your lie. The report was rejected,
Nope.
the report was duly presented to the UN bodies and NEVER rejected.
Your own link proves you are lying,
Nope.
It shows that it is a valid UN report to which for political reasons
no following was given.
[snip]
It is not a UN report if it was rejected by the UN body (the UNHRC) that commissioned it. Your own link proves that it was. And it was never passed on to any other UN body. So, it is a lie to say, as you do at your lying website, that it is "UN assessment."
(snip)
which it wasn't.
They just didn't apply sanctions.
No "sanctions" were called for in the resolution. Not everyone is a
hate-addled genocide junkie like you, Mr. Lobbyist! Again, the
resolution commended the report and called on the Cuban government to
implement its recommendations. That is all. The report was rejected in
a vote by the UNHRC (see your own link). And the mandate of rapporteur
(the author of the report) was terminated.

Anyway, it seems you have been reduced once again to mindlessly
repeating your failed arguments here, desperately hoping that no has
noticed. If you have nothing new and relevant to add, do not expect a
reply from me on this matter.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-29 10:50:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
I see you are still passing off that report rejected by the
UNHRC as a
"UN assessment"
which it is: it is the assessment of th UN rapporteur and his
report
can be duly found on the UN website.
[snip]
It is NOT as you continue to say at your lying website, a "UN
assessment." Your own link exposes your lie. The report was rejected,
Nope.
the report was duly presented to the UN bodies and NEVER rejected.
Your own link proves you are lying,
Nope.
It shows that it is a valid UN report to which for political reasons
no following was given.
[snip]
It is not a UN report if it was rejected by the UN body (the UNHRC) that commissioned it. Your own link proves that it was. And it was never passed on to any other UN body. So, it is a lie to say, as you do at your lying website, that it is "UN assessment."
(snip)
which it wasn't.
They just didn't apply sanctions.
No "sanctions" were called for in the resolution.
Indeed.
No sanctions were applied.
The report was not rejected.
None of the facts were disputed in the final decision on sanctions.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:



Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.

We both know you can't.



Try something like this:



Quote:

"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth
fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In
this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.

.......

These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this
time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to send
death
squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and

Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified
under the circumstances."



http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca



Unquote.



You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........



Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.

That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.



As I said comrade Dan: every time you post that lie about me I post
the
truth about you.



Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation
in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that time
prove).

This was your false claim: "Taking a little break from arm-twisting
in
Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"

Link:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8



Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your
lies.



Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones
below:



YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith

"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he
does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting of your
beloved embargo."

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en



HIS own words:



'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith
said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United
States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.

''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm

You can enter after a free registration.



Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823



YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.

Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.



Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted
below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same report
that:



"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced
the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear its
support for
the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html



Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in
to it)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade
sanctions in that report, are they?

Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these
sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED)?



"in 1.

"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International
considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of conscience(2) and calls
for
their immediate and unconditional release."



In 8.1

" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously
named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.



" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or
imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their rights to
freedom of
expression, association and assembly."



and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your
lying website:



" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on
Cuba in
humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"



that sentence:

1. isn't in the report

2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report



You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and
abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a BLATANT
LIE.



What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:



"Amnesty International calls on the United States government

- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the
embargo.

- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.

- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of
its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."



Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.

The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that
places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the forefront
of its
concerns".



See:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB



Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident
Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.



PL
Dan Christensen
2007-11-26 23:29:20 UTC
Permalink
On Nov 26, 7:48 am, PL <***@pandora.be> wrote:
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Quote me
[snip]

You would like us to forget all about your little indiscretion here
some years ago -- you actually boasting about your lobbying exploits,
the schmoozing, the golf games, etc. Too bad! It is now a matter of
public record. In addition to your own words here, we have your
prodigious production stats here and at other forums.

For all the quotes and details, see the thread "Top Official: US Wants
Cuba 'Liberation'" where our Mr. Lobbyist here obligingly runs through
almost his entire repertoire of desperate lies, distortions and
evasions, including those here, each debunked by yours truly at:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_frm/thread/1ae3dea90e537555/da566b8afe2111a2?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#da566b8afe2111a2

Really, isn't it time for you to come clean on this matter, Mr.
Lobbyist? Your continued denials only serve to undermine what little
credibility you have left. Until you can do so, and if you are simply
going to keep repeating your tired old lies and evasions, do not
expect a reply from me on this matter.
Post by PL
Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html
[snip]

That was 4 years ago. As AI reiterated earlier this year:

"Amnesty International has called for the US embargo against Cuba to
be lifted, as it is highly detrimental to Cubans' enjoyment of a range
of economic, social and cultural rights, such as the right to food,
health and sanitation - particularly affecting the weakest and most
vulnerable members of the population. According to UNICEF, the
availability of medicines and basic medical materials has decreased in
Cuba as a consequence of the US embargo against the island." (AI
website)

Also see featured article, "Is the US embargo a form of genocide?" at
my website.

Mr. Lobbyist would actually have you believe that, despite their
obvious condemnation of his beloved embargo here, AI would actually
support these cruel sanctions of his for as long as it takes for
certain of his "preconditions" to be met! Yes, he really is that
desperate, that stupid and that cruel! Whatever it takes, right, Mr.
Lobbyist?

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-11-27 10:38:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Quote me
[snip]
You would like us to forget all about your little indiscretion here
some years ago -- you actually boasting about your lobbying exploits,
the schmoozing, the golf games, etc.
(snip)

Then post a llink comrade Dan.
For example the one about "playing golf".
If you don't - and we both know you can't - you are exposed as a the
liar
you are.

In fact: we all know about your "long running lie" here.
For those few who don't:

There is no "indescretion" comrade Dan Christensen and your constant
inablility to post direct quotes with links shows that you know you
are
lying Mr. Cyber-Liar and Cyber-Stalker.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_frm/thread/1ae3dea90e537555/da566b8afe2111a2?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#da566b8afe2111a2
Nothing there comrade Dan. No links and quotes. Just you repeating
your
lies.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar: (now
with
the addtion of the latest website lie)

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary
measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your
lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith
said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United
States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in
to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on
Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate
and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause:
a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

In his last "round of lies" he added a picture of a plane to his nsite
trying to make people think it illustrates the military nature of the
BTTR
planes.
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ220.html
The plane shows and its paint job are from a plane owned by a private
person
with no links to the group.
On the date menstioned in 1996 he was already the owner and the
picture
shown is from 1998 when he was the owner.
The date of purchase and subsequent registration can be found on this
website under the header: Certificate Issue: 8/24/1995
http://www.planedesire.com/aircraft/desire/N2432S/details.html

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
ljsprojects
2007-11-27 10:57:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Quote me
[snip]
You would like us to forget all about your little indiscretion here
some years ago -- you actually boasting about your lobbying exploits,
the schmoozing, the golf games, etc.
(snip)
Then post a llink comrade Dan.
For example the one about "playing golf".
If you don't - and we both know you can't - you are exposed as a the
liar
you are.
In fact: we all know about your "long running lie" here.
There is no "indescretion" comrade Dan Christensen and your constant
inablility to post direct quotes with links shows that you know you
are
lying Mr. Cyber-Liar and Cyber-Stalker.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_frm/thread/1ae...
Nothing there comrade Dan. No links and quotes. Just you repeating
your
lies.
Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar: (now
with
the addtion of the latest website lie)
Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary
measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%...
"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%...
Unquote.
You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........
Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.
As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.
Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?...
Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your
lies.
Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?...
'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith
said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.
Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823
YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.
Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html
Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in
to it)http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB
They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."
In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.
" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."
and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on
Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate
and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report
You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
a
BLATANT LIE.
"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."
Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".
See:http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB
In his last "round of lies" he added a picture of a plane to his nsite
trying to make people think it illustrates the military nature of the
BTTR
planes.http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ220.html
The plane shows and its paint job are from a plane owned by a private
person
with no links to the group.
On the date menstioned in 1996 he was already the owner and the
picture
shown is from 1998 when he was the owner.
The date of purchase and subsequent registration can be found on this
website under the header: Certificate Issue: 8/24/1995http://www.planedesire.com/aircraft/desire/N2432S/details.html
Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.
PL
After reading so many psotings I have not changed my opinion. You are
not a "bona fide" member of the Human race. You belong in a Zoo.

T.Schmidt
PL
2007-11-27 14:16:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by ljsprojects
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Quote me
[snip]
You would like us to forget all about your little indiscretion here
some years ago -- you actually boasting about your lobbying exploits,
the schmoozing, the golf games, etc.
(snip)
Then post a llink comrade Dan.
For example the one about "playing golf".
If you don't - and we both know you can't - you are exposed as a the
liar
you are.
In fact: we all know about your "long running lie" here.
There is no "indescretion" comrade Dan Christensen and your constant
inablility to post direct quotes with links shows that you know you
are
lying Mr. Cyber-Liar and Cyber-Stalker.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_frm/thread/1ae...
Nothing there comrade Dan. No links and quotes. Just you repeating
your
lies.
Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar: (now
with
the addtion of the latest website lie)
Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary
measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping
less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%...
"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining
these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%...
Unquote.
You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........
Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.
As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.
Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?...
Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your
lies.
Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?...
'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the
Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith
said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.
Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823
YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.
Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html
Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in
to it)http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB
They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."
In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.
" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."
and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on
Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate
and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report
You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
a
BLATANT LIE.
"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."
Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".
See:http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB
In his last "round of lies" he added a picture of a plane to his nsite
trying to make people think it illustrates the military nature of the
BTTR
planes.http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ220.html
The plane shows and its paint job are from a plane owned by a private
person
with no links to the group.
On the date menstioned in 1996 he was already the owner and the
picture
shown is from 1998 when he was the owner.
The date of purchase and subsequent registration can be found on this
website under the header: Certificate Issue: 8/24/1995http://www.planedesire.com/aircraft/desire/N2432S/details.html
Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.
PL
After reading so many psotings I have not changed my opinion. You are
not a "bona fide" member of the Human race. You belong in a Zoo.
T.Schmidt
Again all you can contribute are insults Herr SSchmidt.

PL
Petry
2007-11-26 15:31:50 UTC
Permalink
Hay muchas clases de socialismo, a saber:
Está el socialismo Científico, el Corporativo, el Cristiano, el
Catedrático, el de Estado, el Ético, el Guildista, el Libertario, el
Verdadero, el Comunista y el Democrático.

Yo prefiero el democrático que es el que practican Chile, Argentina,
Uruguay, Brasil y los paises Europeos, paises que sí saben
pensar....no asi el loco venezolano que práctica un socialismo
comunista, dictatorial...

EL SOCIALISMO DEMOCRÁTICO ES:
Ideología oficial del reformismo moderno, proclamada en el Congreso de
Francfort (1951) de la Internacional Socialista
Objetivos y tareas del socialismo democrático" es contrapuesta a la
Ideología del marxismo – leninismo, Las raíces teóricas del
"socialismo democrático" arrancan del neokantismo, con su
preconización del socialismo ético. Según esta ideología, el
socialismo no constituye el producto de un desarrollo histórico –
natural, sujeto a ley; es un ideal moral, accesible por igual a los
representantes de todas las capas de la sociedad. Por consiguiente, el
problema de la transformación socialista de la sociedad es, ante todo,
un problema moral, un problema de reeducación y formación de los
hombres en el espíritu del socialismo. Se rechaza la lucha de clases,
la revolución socialista, la dictadura del proletariado. El socialismo
surge tan sólo "democráticamente", es decir, como resultado de una
suma de medidas sociales y, en particular, de tipo cultural y educativo,
llevadas a cabo en el marco de la sociedad burguesa por gobiernos
burgueses. El socialismo existe como "democracia", o sea, como unidad
armónica de todas las capas y de todos los grupos sociales, incluidos
los capitalistas. Por su sentido objetivo, el "socialismo democrático"
tiende a perpetuar los soportes básicos de la sociedad burguesa.  
 

Entiendo que es ideal porque no se va a los extremos, no divide ni aisla
a los pueblos y es más acorde con el Siglo XXI

~*~Petry~*~
Petry
2007-11-26 15:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Hay muchas clases de socialismo, a saber:
Está el socialismo Científico, el Corporativo, el Cristiano, el
Catedrático, el de Estado, el Ético, el Guildista, el Libertario, el
Verdadero, el Comunista y el Democrático.

Yo prefiero el democrático que es el que practican Chile, Argentina,
Uruguay, Brasil y los paises Europeos, paises que sí saben
pensar....no asi el loco venezolano que práctica un socialismo
comunista, dictatorial...

EL SOCIALISMO DEMOCRÁTICO ES:
Ideología oficial del reformismo moderno, proclamada en el Congreso de
Francfort (1951) de la Internacional Socialista
Objetivos y tareas del socialismo democrático" es contrapuesta a la
Ideología del marxismo – leninismo, Las raíces teóricas del
"socialismo democrático" arrancan del neokantismo, con su
preconización del socialismo ético. Según esta ideología, el
socialismo no constituye el producto de un desarrollo histórico –
natural, sujeto a ley; es un ideal moral, accesible por igual a los
representantes de todas las capas de la sociedad. Por consiguiente, el
problema de la transformación socialista de la sociedad es, ante todo,
un problema moral, un problema de reeducación y formación de los
hombres en el espíritu del socialismo. Se rechaza la lucha de clases,
la revolución socialista, la dictadura del proletariado. El socialismo
surge tan sólo "democráticamente", es decir, como resultado de una
suma de medidas sociales y, en particular, de tipo cultural y educativo,
llevadas a cabo en el marco de la sociedad burguesa por gobiernos
burgueses. El socialismo existe como "democracia", o sea, como unidad
armónica de todas las capas y de todos los grupos sociales, incluidos
los capitalistas. Por su sentido objetivo, el "socialismo democrático"
tiende a perpetuar los soportes básicos de la sociedad burguesa.  
 

Entiendo que es ideal porque no se va a los extremos, no divide ni aisla
a los pueblos y es más acorde con el Siglo XXI

~*~Petry~*~
Petry
2007-11-26 15:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Hay muchas clases de socialismo, a saber:
Está el socialismo Científico, el Corporativo, el Cristiano, el
Catedrático, el de Estado, el Ético, el Guildista, el Libertario, el
Verdadero, el Comunista y el Democrático.

Yo prefiero el democrático que es el que practican Chile, Argentina,
Uruguay, Brasil y los paises Europeos, paises que sí saben
pensar....no asi el loco venezolano que práctica un socialismo
comunista, dictatorial...

EL SOCIALISMO DEMOCRÁTICO ES:
Ideología oficial del reformismo moderno, proclamada en el Congreso de
Francfort (1951) de la Internacional Socialista
Objetivos y tareas del socialismo democrático" es contrapuesta a la
Ideología del marxismo – leninismo, Las raíces teóricas del
"socialismo democrático" arrancan del neokantismo, con su
preconización del socialismo ético. Según esta ideología, el
socialismo no constituye el producto de un desarrollo histórico –
natural, sujeto a ley; es un ideal moral, accesible por igual a los
representantes de todas las capas de la sociedad. Por consiguiente, el
problema de la transformación socialista de la sociedad es, ante todo,
un problema moral, un problema de reeducación y formación de los
hombres en el espíritu del socialismo. Se rechaza la lucha de clases,
la revolución socialista, la dictadura del proletariado. El socialismo
surge tan sólo "democráticamente", es decir, como resultado de una
suma de medidas sociales y, en particular, de tipo cultural y educativo,
llevadas a cabo en el marco de la sociedad burguesa por gobiernos
burgueses. El socialismo existe como "democracia", o sea, como unidad
armónica de todas las capas y de todos los grupos sociales, incluidos
los capitalistas. Por su sentido objetivo, el "socialismo democrático"
tiende a perpetuar los soportes básicos de la sociedad burguesa.  
 

Entiendo que es ideal porque no se va a los extremos, no divide ni aisla
a los pueblos y es más acorde con el Siglo XXI

~*~Petry~*~
Petry
2007-11-26 15:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Hay muchas clases de socialismo, a saber:
Está el socialismo Científico, el Corporativo, el Cristiano, el
Catedrático, el de Estado, el Ético, el Guildista, el Libertario, el
Verdadero, el Comunista y el Democrático.

Yo prefiero el democrático que es el que practican Chile, Argentina,
Uruguay, Brasil y los paises Europeos, paises que sí saben
pensar....no asi el loco venezolano que práctica un socialismo
comunista, dictatorial...

EL SOCIALISMO DEMOCRÁTICO ES:
Ideología oficial del reformismo moderno, proclamada en el Congreso de
Francfort (1951) de la Internacional Socialista
Objetivos y tareas del socialismo democrático" es contrapuesta a la
Ideología del marxismo – leninismo, Las raíces teóricas del
"socialismo democrático" arrancan del neokantismo, con su
preconización del socialismo ético. Según esta ideología, el
socialismo no constituye el producto de un desarrollo histórico –
natural, sujeto a ley; es un ideal moral, accesible por igual a los
representantes de todas las capas de la sociedad. Por consiguiente, el
problema de la transformación socialista de la sociedad es, ante todo,
un problema moral, un problema de reeducación y formación de los
hombres en el espíritu del socialismo. Se rechaza la lucha de clases,
la revolución socialista, la dictadura del proletariado. El socialismo
surge tan sólo "democráticamente", es decir, como resultado de una
suma de medidas sociales y, en particular, de tipo cultural y educativo,
llevadas a cabo en el marco de la sociedad burguesa por gobiernos
burgueses. El socialismo existe como "democracia", o sea, como unidad
armónica de todas las capas y de todos los grupos sociales, incluidos
los capitalistas. Por su sentido objetivo, el "socialismo democrático"
tiende a perpetuar los soportes básicos de la sociedad burguesa.  
 

Entiendo que es ideal porque no se va a los extremos, no divide ni aisla
a los pueblos y es más acorde con el Siglo XXI

~*~Petry~*~
Petry
2007-11-26 15:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Hay muchas clases de socialismo, a saber:
Está el socialismo Científico, el Corporativo, el Cristiano, el
Catedrático, el de Estado, el Ético, el Guildista, el Libertario, el
Verdadero, el Comunista y el Democrático.

Yo prefiero el democrático que es el que practican Chile, Argentina,
Uruguay, Brasil y los paises Europeos, paises que sí saben
pensar....no asi el loco venezolano que práctica un socialismo
comunista, dictatorial...

EL SOCIALISMO DEMOCRÁTICO ES:
Ideología oficial del reformismo moderno, proclamada en el Congreso de
Francfort (1951) de la Internacional Socialista
Objetivos y tareas del socialismo democrático" es contrapuesta a la
Ideología del marxismo – leninismo, Las raíces teóricas del
"socialismo democrático" arrancan del neokantismo, con su
preconización del socialismo ético. Según esta ideología, el
socialismo no constituye el producto de un desarrollo histórico –
natural, sujeto a ley; es un ideal moral, accesible por igual a los
representantes de todas las capas de la sociedad. Por consiguiente, el
problema de la transformación socialista de la sociedad es, ante todo,
un problema moral, un problema de reeducación y formación de los
hombres en el espíritu del socialismo. Se rechaza la lucha de clases,
la revolución socialista, la dictadura del proletariado. El socialismo
surge tan sólo "democráticamente", es decir, como resultado de una
suma de medidas sociales y, en particular, de tipo cultural y educativo,
llevadas a cabo en el marco de la sociedad burguesa por gobiernos
burgueses. El socialismo existe como "democracia", o sea, como unidad
armónica de todas las capas y de todos los grupos sociales, incluidos
los capitalistas. Por su sentido objetivo, el "socialismo democrático"
tiende a perpetuar los soportes básicos de la sociedad burguesa.  
 

Entiendo que es ideal porque no se va a los extremos, no divide ni aisla
a los pueblos y es más acorde con el Siglo XXI

~*~Petry~*~
Petry
2007-11-26 15:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Hay muchas clases de socialismo, a saber:
Está el socialismo Científico, el Corporativo, el Cristiano, el
Catedrático, el de Estado, el Ético, el Guildista, el Libertario, el
Verdadero, el Comunista y el Democrático.

Yo prefiero el democrático que es el que practican Chile, Argentina,
Uruguay, Brasil y los paises Europeos, paises que sí saben
pensar....no asi el loco venezolano que práctica un socialismo
comunista, dictatorial...

EL SOCIALISMO DEMOCRÁTICO ES:
Ideología oficial del reformismo moderno, proclamada en el Congreso de
Francfort (1951) de la Internacional Socialista
Objetivos y tareas del socialismo democrático" es contrapuesta a la
Ideología del marxismo – leninismo, Las raíces teóricas del
"socialismo democrático" arrancan del neokantismo, con su
preconización del socialismo ético. Según esta ideología, el
socialismo no constituye el producto de un desarrollo histórico –
natural, sujeto a ley; es un ideal moral, accesible por igual a los
representantes de todas las capas de la sociedad. Por consiguiente, el
problema de la transformación socialista de la sociedad es, ante todo,
un problema moral, un problema de reeducación y formación de los
hombres en el espíritu del socialismo. Se rechaza la lucha de clases,
la revolución socialista, la dictadura del proletariado. El socialismo
surge tan sólo "democráticamente", es decir, como resultado de una
suma de medidas sociales y, en particular, de tipo cultural y educativo,
llevadas a cabo en el marco de la sociedad burguesa por gobiernos
burgueses. El socialismo existe como "democracia", o sea, como unidad
armónica de todas las capas y de todos los grupos sociales, incluidos
los capitalistas. Por su sentido objetivo, el "socialismo democrático"
tiende a perpetuar los soportes básicos de la sociedad burguesa.  
 

Entiendo que es ideal porque no se va a los extremos, no divide ni aisla
a los pueblos y es más acorde con el Siglo XXI

~*~Petry~*~
Petry
2007-11-26 15:31:58 UTC
Permalink
Hay muchas clases de socialismo, a saber:
Está el socialismo Científico, el Corporativo, el Cristiano, el
Catedrático, el de Estado, el Ético, el Guildista, el Libertario, el
Verdadero, el Comunista y el Democrático.

Yo prefiero el democrático que es el que practican Chile, Argentina,
Uruguay, Brasil y los paises Europeos, paises que sí saben
pensar....no asi el loco venezolano que práctica un socialismo
comunista, dictatorial...

EL SOCIALISMO DEMOCRÁTICO ES:
Ideología oficial del reformismo moderno, proclamada en el Congreso de
Francfort (1951) de la Internacional Socialista
Objetivos y tareas del socialismo democrático" es contrapuesta a la
Ideología del marxismo – leninismo, Las raíces teóricas del
"socialismo democrático" arrancan del neokantismo, con su
preconización del socialismo ético. Según esta ideología, el
socialismo no constituye el producto de un desarrollo histórico –
natural, sujeto a ley; es un ideal moral, accesible por igual a los
representantes de todas las capas de la sociedad. Por consiguiente, el
problema de la transformación socialista de la sociedad es, ante todo,
un problema moral, un problema de reeducación y formación de los
hombres en el espíritu del socialismo. Se rechaza la lucha de clases,
la revolución socialista, la dictadura del proletariado. El socialismo
surge tan sólo "democráticamente", es decir, como resultado de una
suma de medidas sociales y, en particular, de tipo cultural y educativo,
llevadas a cabo en el marco de la sociedad burguesa por gobiernos
burgueses. El socialismo existe como "democracia", o sea, como unidad
armónica de todas las capas y de todos los grupos sociales, incluidos
los capitalistas. Por su sentido objetivo, el "socialismo democrático"
tiende a perpetuar los soportes básicos de la sociedad burguesa.  
 

Entiendo que es ideal porque no se va a los extremos, no divide ni aisla
a los pueblos y es más acorde con el Siglo XXI

~*~Petry~*~
Petry
2007-11-26 15:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Hay muchas clases de socialismo, a saber:
Está el socialismo Científico, el Corporativo, el Cristiano, el
Catedrático, el de Estado, el Ético, el Guildista, el Libertario, el
Verdadero, el Comunista y el Democrático.

Yo prefiero el democrático que es el que practican Chile, Argentina,
Uruguay, Brasil y los paises Europeos, paises que sí saben
pensar....no asi el loco venezolano que práctica un socialismo
comunista, dictatorial...

EL SOCIALISMO DEMOCRÁTICO ES:
Ideología oficial del reformismo moderno, proclamada en el Congreso de
Francfort (1951) de la Internacional Socialista
Objetivos y tareas del socialismo democrático" es contrapuesta a la
Ideología del marxismo – leninismo, Las raíces teóricas del
"socialismo democrático" arrancan del neokantismo, con su
preconización del socialismo ético. Según esta ideología, el
socialismo no constituye el producto de un desarrollo histórico –
natural, sujeto a ley; es un ideal moral, accesible por igual a los
representantes de todas las capas de la sociedad. Por consiguiente, el
problema de la transformación socialista de la sociedad es, ante todo,
un problema moral, un problema de reeducación y formación de los
hombres en el espíritu del socialismo. Se rechaza la lucha de clases,
la revolución socialista, la dictadura del proletariado. El socialismo
surge tan sólo "democráticamente", es decir, como resultado de una
suma de medidas sociales y, en particular, de tipo cultural y educativo,
llevadas a cabo en el marco de la sociedad burguesa por gobiernos
burgueses. El socialismo existe como "democracia", o sea, como unidad
armónica de todas las capas y de todos los grupos sociales, incluidos
los capitalistas. Por su sentido objetivo, el "socialismo democrático"
tiende a perpetuar los soportes básicos de la sociedad burguesa.  
 

Entiendo que es ideal porque no se va a los extremos, no divide ni aisla
a los pueblos y es más acorde con el Siglo XXI

~*~Petry~*~
M***@hotmail.com
2007-11-30 21:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolf R
IMPORTANT INFORMATION IS NOW BEING OFFERED TO THE PUBLIC BY EXILED CUBAN
INTELLIGENCE MAYOR ROBERTO HERNÁNDEZ DEL LLANO.
Mega TV on direct TV, Channel 22, on Comcast.
SEE THE OVER 4O MANSIONS THAT FORM THE RESIDENCE OF DICTATOR FOR LIFE
FIDEL CASTRO.
Sumamente interesante todos los programas de Maria Elvira. Es
increible la pudredumbre dentro de la cupula del castro-fascismo.

Este ex-agente de la seguridad que acaba de llegar al exilio demuestra
la corrupcion que existe bajo ese nefasto regimen.

Aqui les envio el enlace. Les recomiendo vean y aprendan para que no
caigan en esa Gran Estafa que se llama el comunismo.


Adrey S
2007-12-01 17:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Si el rey Juan Carlos no le pide disculpas, nacionalizar=E1 los bancos
espa=F1oles dijo:)
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=3D10088
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Si los gringo mueven un dedo, les cortar=E1 el petroleo, demandar=E1
CNN, amenaza a Uribe etc.... huy qu=E9 miedo !!!
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=3D10075
=3D=3D=3D=3D
Adrey S
2007-12-01 17:09:11 UTC
Permalink
Si el rey Juan Carlos no le pide disculpas, nacionalizar=E1 los bancos
espa=F1oles dijo:)
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=3D10088
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Si los gringo mueven un dedo, les cortar=E1 el petroleo, demandar=E1
CNN, amenaza a Uribe etc.... huy qu=E9 miedo !!!
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=3D10075
=3D=3D=3D=3D
rilke
2007-12-01 18:39:05 UTC
Permalink
Si el rey Juan Carlos no le pide disculpas, nacionalizará los bancos
españoles dijo:)
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=10088
=======Si los gringo mueven un dedo, les cortará el petroleo, demandará
CNN, amenaza a Uribe etc.... huy qué miedo !!!
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=10075
===
A la Divina Pastora rogando y con el palo dando.
Ahora si, socialismo!

Viva Chavez!
r.
Chuck
2007-12-01 18:50:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by rilke
Si el rey Juan Carlos no le pide disculpas, nacionalizará los bancos
españoles dijo:)
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=10088
=======Si los gringo mueven un dedo, les cortará el petroleo, demandará
CNN, amenaza a Uribe etc.... huy qué miedo !!!
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=10075
===
Llamar socialismo a la payasada de Chavez seria ofender a los suecos.

Saludos cordiales,

Chuck

P.S: Preparense para el colosal fraude. Posiblemente esto sea el principio
del final. Enbuenahora!
Post by rilke
A la Divina Pastora rogando y con el palo dando.
Ahora si, socialismo!
Viva Chavez!
r.
Chuck
2007-12-01 18:52:14 UTC
Permalink
Si se sintiera ganador no necesitaria amenazas.

Ya esta preparanda la huida.

Chuck
Adrey S
2007-12-02 03:29:40 UTC
Permalink
Re: ANTE EL MIEDO, AMENAZA Y RUEGA A JES=DAS :) UN SATAN=C1S COMO =C9L
JA JA JA.
Group: soc.culture.argentina Date: Sat, Dec 1, 2007, 6:52pm (EST+5)
From: ***@pinko.com (Chuck)

Si se sintiera ganador no necesitaria amenazas.
Ya esta preparanda la huida.
Chuck
~~~~~~~
Dios te oiga, pero lo que=A0si est=E1 preparado es el fraude,,,,

Adrey
Adrey S
2007-12-01 17:09:08 UTC
Permalink
Si el rey Juan Carlos no le pide disculpas, nacionalizar=E1 los bancos
espa=F1oles dijo:)
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=3D10088
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Si los gringo mueven un dedo, les cortar=E1 el petroleo, demandar=E1
CNN, amenaza a Uribe etc.... huy qu=E9 miedo !!!
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=3D10075
=3D=3D=3D=3D
Adrey S
2007-12-01 17:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Si el rey Juan Carlos no le pide disculpas, nacionalizar=E1 los bancos
espa=F1oles dijo:)
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=3D10088
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Si los gringo mueven un dedo, les cortar=E1 el petroleo, demandar=E1
CNN, amenaza a Uribe etc.... huy qu=E9 miedo !!!
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=3D10075
=3D=3D=3D=3D
Adrey S
2007-12-01 17:09:26 UTC
Permalink
Si el rey Juan Carlos no le pide disculpas, nacionalizar=E1 los bancos
espa=F1oles dijo:)
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=3D10088
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Si los gringo mueven un dedo, les cortar=E1 el petroleo, demandar=E1
CNN, amenaza a Uribe etc.... huy qu=E9 miedo !!!
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=3D10075
=3D=3D=3D=3D
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