Discussion:
11-string recuerdos- where on the bell curve?
(too old to reply)
JonLorPro
2008-04-30 16:55:54 UTC
Permalink
I was both reticent to exhibit the temerity of posting this in the
Wang Yameng tremolo discussion, and loath to submit it to the recent
"worst recuerdos" thread. I'll let the group decide in which company
it belongs. The original (non- HiFi) VHS has a lot of hiss on it
which I tried to mollify, but someone with real expertise in this area
could probably do better. Actual hiss removal programs I've tried made
it sound weird; any engineering suggestions would be welcome.


l***@deack.net
2008-04-30 17:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
I was both reticent to exhibit the temerity of posting this in the
Wang Yameng tremolo discussion, and loath to submit it to the recent
"worst recuerdos" thread.  I'll let the group decide in which company
it belongs.  The original (non- HiFi) VHS has a lot of hiss on it
which I tried to mollify, but someone with real expertise in this area
could probably do better. Actual hiss removal programs I've tried made
it sound weird; any engineering suggestions would be welcome.
http://youtu.be/O0PCn13xCug
Ha ha, I was jsut litening to this after you last post. First one I
picked! How weird is that.

Excellent, maestro!
steve ganz
2008-05-01 03:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
I was both reticent to exhibit the temerity of posting this in the
Wang Yameng tremolo discussion, and loath to submit it to the recent
"worst recuerdos" thread. I'll let the group decide in which company
it belongs. The original (non- HiFi) VHS has a lot of hiss on it
which I tried to mollify, but someone with real expertise in this area
could probably do better. Actual hiss removal programs I've tried made
it sound weird; any engineering suggestions would be welcome.
http://youtu.be/O0PCn13xCug
It's a nice rendition.
I particularly liked the last note.
--
Steve G
h***@verizon.net
2008-05-01 03:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
I was both reticent to exhibit the temerity of posting this in the
Wang Yameng tremolo discussion, and loath to submit it to the recent
"worst recuerdos" thread.  I'll let the group decide in which company
it belongs.  The original (non- HiFi) VHS has a lot of hiss on it
which I tried to mollify, but someone with real expertise in this area
could probably do better. Actual hiss removal programs I've tried made
it sound weird; any engineering suggestions would be welcome.
http://youtu.be/O0PCn13xCug
Nice! I like the way you used the low notes to fill out the texture!
And great stability in the right hand to reach up there and grab those
low basses while maintaining a smooth, solid tremolo.

I enjoyed this video and for youtube standards, not that noisy.

Seth
Tashi
2008-05-01 06:56:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
I was both reticent to exhibit the temerity of posting this in the
Wang Yameng tremolo discussion, and loath to submit it to the recent
"worst recuerdos" thread.  I'll let the group decide in which company
it belongs.  The original (non- HiFi) VHS has a lot of hiss on it
which I tried to mollify, but someone with real expertise in this area
could probably do better. Actual hiss removal programs I've tried made
it sound weird; any engineering suggestions would be welcome.
http://youtu.be/O0PCn13xCug
Who is that playing?
MT
h***@verizon.net
2008-05-01 15:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by JonLorPro
I was both reticent to exhibit the temerity of posting this in the
Wang Yameng tremolo discussion, and loath to submit it to the recent
"worst recuerdos" thread. I'll let the group decide in which company
it belongs. The original (non- HiFi) VHS has a lot of hiss on it
which I tried to mollify, but someone with real expertise in this area
could probably do better. Actual hiss removal programs I've tried made
it sound weird; any engineering suggestions would be welcome.
http://youtu.be/O0PCn13xCug
Who is that playing?
MT
The guitarist is Mr. JonLorPro himself, John Marsh Bigelow.

Check out his website:

www.communityartsadvocates.org/ApolloWeb Site/index.htm

Seth
Tashi
2008-05-01 16:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by Tashi
Post by JonLorPro
I was both reticent to exhibit the temerity of posting this in the
Wang Yameng tremolo discussion, and loath to submit it to the recent
"worst recuerdos" thread.  I'll let the group decide in which company
it belongs.  The original (non- HiFi) VHS has a lot of hiss on it
which I tried to mollify, but someone with real expertise in this area
could probably do better. Actual hiss removal programs I've tried made
it sound weird; any engineering suggestions would be welcome.
http://youtu.be/O0PCn13xCug
Who is that playing?
MT
The guitarist is Mr. JonLorPro himself, John Marsh Bigelow.
www.communityartsadvocates.org/ApolloWebSite/index.htm
Seth
I that case, let me congradulate John, your quite a good player!
Excellent! and very nice guitar! I have a soft spot for guitars with
lots of strings.
MT
JonLorPro
2008-05-02 17:46:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by Tashi
Post by JonLorPro
I was both reticent to exhibit the temerity of posting this in the
Wang Yameng tremolo discussion, and loath to submit it to the recent
"worst recuerdos" thread. �I'll let the group decide in which company
it belongs. �The original (non- HiFi) VHS has a lot of hiss on it
which I tried to mollify, but someone with real expertise in this area
could probably do better. Actual hiss removal programs I've tried made
it sound weird; any engineering suggestions would be welcome.
http://youtu.be/O0PCn13xCug
Who is that playing?
MT
The guitarist is Mr. JonLorPro himself, John Marsh Bigelow.
www.communityartsadvocates.org/ApolloWebSite/index.htm
Seth
I that case, let me congradulate John, your quite a good player!
Excellent! and very nice guitar! �I have a soft spot for guitars with
lots of strings.
MT
Yes, indeedy, 'tis I- nails and all. ;- D
This was taped long enough ago so that its now becoming a bit of self-
delusion that this is how I imagine myself to look.
The website is a project that has been languishing- in a raw state,
needs lots of editing- but please do check it out. The link that Seth
kindly provided doesn't include the "index.htm" at the end when you
click on it, which is becessary. There is also a peculiar protocol
whereby the "A", ""W" and "S" in "ApolloWebSite" all must be
capitalized. I am most grateful to the guy whose website this
actually is, who is helping us out with the design and is hosting the
page for us for now (Stephen Baird, be sure to check the rest of his
site if you are at all interested in or concerned about street
performance and first amendment issues- and also if you like wild bird
photography, another one of his interests!) but I am anxious to get
around to getting the site ready for prime time and putting it up for
easier accessibility at BigSalt.com.
I thank you for your comments! and everyone else's, too, Larry,
Seth, the Steves Perry and Ganz, Andresito, and others.
The eleven-string I used in that video is one of two that I have,
this one is a Stanul. He had contrived a system whereby when making a
guitar he was able very easily to put a top on temporarily and take it
off again, so that in between fiddlings around with bracing,
scrapings, etc.it could be strung up and played in order to appreciate
quickly the results of such experimentation. The top we settled on is
actually the third one we tried, and it has very little bracing
inside.
I'd love to try one of yours someday; they sound excellent in your
videos (and well played, too!), but this will have to wait until my
high risk- high yield investment portfolio ( i.e., the state lottery)
pays off.
Re: the sound on videos- I mentioned having tried hiss removal
programs doing weird things; I recall in some of your first videos on
YouTube hearing a few odd high-end artifacts of the sort that I was
getting a lot of when I tried to clean this one and others up, but
your later YouTubes don't have this problem- were you trying some
similar program which you changed or tweaked somehow for better
results? How are you doing your recordings?
-J
Tashi
2008-05-03 03:00:23 UTC
Permalink
  I thank you for your comments! and everyone else's, too, Larry,
Seth, the Steves Perry and Ganz, Andresito, and others.
  The eleven-string I used in that video is one of two that I have,
this one is a Stanul. He had contrived a system whereby when making a
guitar he was able very easily to put a top on temporarily and take it
off again, so that in between fiddlings around with bracing,
scrapings, etc.it could be strung up and played in order to appreciate
quickly the results of such experimentation.  The top we settled on is
actually the third one we tried, and it has very little bracing
inside.
Again John excellent playing! Interesting to hear about the minimal
bracing on your 11 string. I'm also convenced this is the way to go
myself. If you look at ren lutes that were converted over to 13
string Baroque lutes they didn't add anymore bracing inside. I think
just the additional width of the bridge is enough to compensate for
the extra tension.

Are those tuners real friction pegs or are they those "Pegheds"?
  I'd love to try one of yours someday; they sound excellent in your
videos (and well played, too!), but this will have to wait until my
high risk- high yield investment portfolio ( i.e., the state lottery)
pays off.
Thanks but why don't you make a 13 string?
  Re: the sound on videos- I mentioned having tried hiss removal
programs doing weird things; I recall in some of your first videos on
YouTube hearing a few odd high-end artifacts of the sort that I was
getting a lot of when I tried to clean this one and others up, but
your later YouTubes don't have this problem- were you trying some
similar program which you changed or tweaked somehow for better
results?   How are you doing your recordings?
  -J
On the first recordings of the Weiss and Pachelbel I really didn't
understand the audio settings. I had two preamps feeding into the
camera. My recording freind said it condensed the signal too much.
The other ones I just used the on borad mic and didn't add any thing
to it.

I now have Final Cut pro II to edited the video as well as the
audio. The audio as Soundtrack Pro which can edited the audio with
reverb, hiss removel and all that stuff. I'm anxiuos to do another
video using this.

On my website on the home page the Weiss was recorded direct to disc
through a blue tube preamp on an Akai DR4 with 20 dollar mics.

MT
JonLorPro
2008-05-12 22:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Are those tuners real friction pegs or are they those "Pegheds"?
I'm not sure what you mean by "those 'Pegheads' ". They're not regular
friction pegs, though- they are violin pegs that come in two parts-
the string wound portion and the seperate portion that you grab in
order to turn it, tighten together by means of a screw onto a bushing
that is mounted in the hole through the headstock. This means that I
at least don't have to fuss around with jamming them in tightly and
then defeating that jammed in-ness every time I want to tune, but it
is still a 1:1 tuning ratio. This denies me some niceties like the
ability to reach up quickly in mid-flight to adjust the pitch of a
string; perhaps you noticed that availment of that possibility could
have been useful to me in the Recuerdos. When I had the Velasquez
made, I had some straight through planetary pegs that I wanted put in
at least for the four highest strings that would have given me a 4:1
tuning ratio- but he made the headstock too thick to accomodate them.
Perhaps he didn't like it that they were made for banjo, and so maybe
nobbled implementation of my design ( I don't mean that seriously)- as
it was, he didn't even like the non-traditionality of the "bushing"
violin pegs- he thought I should have gone with the conventional
friction pegs- but he did put them in for me, and took the trouble to
make some necessary modifications to them, in spite of this.
Post by Tashi
Post by JonLorPro
I'd love to try one of yours someday; they sound excellent in your
videos (and well played, too!), but this will have to wait until my
high risk- high yield investment portfolio ( i.e., the state lottery)
pays off.
Thanks but why don't you make a 13 string?
If and when that aforementioned pay-off occurs, maybe I will, to
devote to the Weiss tuning you espouse. But, ultimately, though one
grows into whatever are the newly appended dimensions one may have
added, and always winds up bumping against the confines of what were
formerly the expanded parameters of a new found freedom at some
point, there are diminishing returns and greater consequences of
burden for the addition of yet still more. Where the line is between
enough and too much is hard to determine, so in the end one makes an
arbitrary decision and commits to it.
Post by Tashi
Post by JonLorPro
I recall in some of your first videos on
YouTube hearing a few odd high-end artifacts of the sort that I was
getting a lot of when I tried to clean this one and others up, but
your later YouTubes don't have this problem- were you trying some
similar program which you changed or tweaked somehow for better
results? How are you doing your recordings?
On the first recordings...I had two preamps feeding into the
camera. My recording freind said it condensed the signal too much.
Did you perhaps mean "compressed" rather than "condensed"? I'll have
to see if there was a compression algorithm in the hiss removal
program I tried that was doing this that could be adjusted.
Post by Tashi
I now have Final Cut pro II to edited the video as well as the
audio. The audio as Soundtrack Pro which can edited the audio with
reverb, hiss removel and all that stuff. I'm anxiuos to do another
video using this.
I look forward to hearing it. Maybe your hiss removal is higher end
than what I've got.
Post by Tashi
On my website on the home page the Weiss was recorded direct to disc
through a blue tube preamp on an Akai DR4 with 20 dollar mics.
I'll check 'em out.

-J
l***@deack.net
2008-05-12 22:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
I'm not sure what you mean by "those 'Pegheads' ". They're not regular
friction pegs, though- they are violin pegs that come in two parts-
the string wound portion and the seperate portion that you grab in
order to turn it, tighten together by means of a screw onto a bushing
that is mounted in the hole through the headstock.  This means that I
at least don't have to fuss around with jamming them in tightly and
then defeating that jammed in-ness every time I want to tune, but it
is still a 1:1 tuning ratio.
Like this?

http://www.pegheds.com/
JonLorPro
2008-05-12 23:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@deack.net
Post by JonLorPro
I'm not sure what you mean by "those 'Pegheads' ". They're not regular
friction pegs, though- they are violin pegs that come in two parts-
the string wound portion and the seperate portion that you grab in
order to turn it, tighten together by means of a screw onto a bushing
that is mounted in the hole through the headstock. �This means that I
at least don't have to fuss around with jamming them in tightly and
then defeating that jammed in-ness every time I want to tune, but it
is still a 1:1 tuning ratio.
Like this?
http://www.pegheds.com/
No, those are more sophisticated than what I've got- mine are a direct
shaft connection that only provides for a 1:1 turning ratio; the ones
at this link offer the 4:1 that the banjo pegs I never got to use
would have given me- and they look a lot better, too. I'm excited!
Maybe I can get these to put in-- Thanks!
John LaCroix
2008-05-01 18:52:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
I was both reticent to exhibit the temerity of posting this in the
Wang Yameng tremolo discussion, and loath to submit it to the recent
"worst recuerdos" thread.  I'll let the group decide in which company
it belongs.  The original (non- HiFi) VHS has a lot of hiss on it
which I tried to mollify, but someone with real expertise in this area
could probably do better. Actual hiss removal programs I've tried made
it sound weird; any engineering suggestions would be welcome.
http://youtu.be/O0PCn13xCug
Bigelow...that name is familiar. By any chance were you teaching
guitar to college kids in VT in 1979?

John L.
JonLorPro
2008-05-02 14:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John LaCroix
Bigelow...that name is familiar. By any chance were you teaching
guitar to college kids in VT in 1979?
John L.
Yes, I was. Did we meet? Would most likely have been at Middlebury,
UVM, or Johnson State.
John LaCroix
2008-05-02 17:48:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
Post by John LaCroix
Bigelow...that name is familiar. By any chance were you teaching
guitar to college kids in VT in 1979?
John L.
Yes, I was. Did we meet? Would most likely have been at Middlebury,
UVM, or Johnson State.
Johnson State, fall semester of 79 - I was the one who pestered you
into telling me how Van Halen played Spanish Fly :^)
JonLorPro
2008-05-02 18:30:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by John LaCroix
Johnson State, fall semester of 79 - I was the one who pestered you
into telling me how Van Halen played Spanish Fly :^)
Did I even know? I must have come up with some sort of bullshit,
because I don't know now. I'll have to see if I can find it on
YouTube.
JonLorPro
2008-05-02 22:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
Post by John LaCroix
Johnson State, fall semester of 79 - I was the one who pestered you
into telling me how Van Halen played Spanish Fly :^)
Did I even know? I must have come up with some sort of bullshit,
because I don't know now.  I'll have to see if I can find it on
YouTube.
On nylon:



track of Eddy playing it on acoustic:



its apparently buried somewhere in the midst of this extended electric
solo, after some uncredited allusions to Bach's D minor tocatta:




I do now remember having an inquiry stimulated discussion with
someone about combined right and left handed handed tapping on
electric in regard to some particular rock avatar - didn't recall that
it was Van Halen, but of course, it would make sense for the time that
it was. Flamenco guitarists had been already been doing that for quite
a while, which I may have mentioned back then, but then Van Halen
really made a thing of it.
So that was you? What are you doing for tunes these days? Classical,
electric, both?

And are you still in that area? If so, do you by any chance know a
guitar maker named Dennis Scannell?

-J
John LaCroix
2008-05-02 23:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
Post by JonLorPro
Post by John LaCroix
Johnson State, fall semester of 79 - I was the one who pestered you
into telling me how Van Halen played Spanish Fly :^)
Did I even know? I must have come up with some sort of bullshit,
because I don't know now. I'll have to see if I can find it on
YouTube.
http://youtu.be/0GjQlALrtjg
http://youtu.be/yVg2ZNF5_tc
its apparently buried somewhere in the midst of this extended electric
http://youtu.be/f0mvDFV1E60
I do now remember having an inquiry stimulated discussion with
someone about combined right and left handed handed tapping on
electric in regard to some particular rock avatar - didn't recall that
it was Van Halen, but of course, it would make sense for the time that
it was. Flamenco guitarists had been already been doing that for quite
a while, which I may have mentioned back then, but then Van Halen
really made a thing of it.
So that was you? What are you doing for tunes these days? Classical,
electric, both?
And are you still in that area? If so, do you by any chance know a
guitar maker named Dennis Scannell?
-J
Me and a friend figured it out - that was the days before youtube and
MTV videos. I dropped the guitar for some time, then picked it back up
in my late 30's and started taking lessons - a dedicated amateur when
not causing trouble here. About 6 years ago I started building
classicals, I make between 4 and 6 a year, depending on how much time
my 'real' job allows. Looking forward to becomming a CG hermit when I
retire. I don't recall hearing the name Scannell - I need to go down
to Woodstock tomorrow, I might pop over and visit Al Carruth I'll ask
him if he knows him.

Moved back to VT 8 years ago - born here and I guess thanks to my wife
I'm going to die here. Anyway, good to bump into you. I think the last
time I saw you was downtown Boston sometime around 1980 - you were
picking Bach on the street, maybe around Faneuil Hall.

John L.
l***@deack.net
2008-05-03 00:02:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by John LaCroix
born here and I guess thanks to my wife
I'm going to die here.
Nice choice of words :-)
JonLorPro
2008-05-03 01:18:44 UTC
Permalink
...I might pop over and visit Al Carruth I'll ask
him if he knows him.
He may or may not not know Dennis, but he knows me- I used to teach in
his shop in Dedham. He's a guy I sure wish was still around,
fascinating fellow. I've got to communicate with him about a guitar of
his I have- we also have a harp he made for us, on which I recorded
the only harp piece I ever learned.
Moved back to VT 8 years ago - born here...
So was I.

I allus think about making a trip back up there; I'd like to see your
shop if ever I do.
...I think the last
time I saw you was downtown Boston sometime around 1980 - you were
picking Bach on the street, maybe around Faneuil Hall.
Could of beed- that was a good place for us to play for quite a while.

-J
John LaCroix
2008-05-03 10:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
...I might pop over and visit Al Carruth I'll ask
him if he knows him.
He may or may not not know Dennis, but he knows me- I used to teach in
his shop in Dedham. He's a guy I sure wish was still around,
fascinating fellow. I've got to communicate with him about a guitar of
his I have- we also have a harp he made for us, on which I recorded
the only harp piece I ever learned.
Moved back to VT 8 years ago - born here...
So was I.
I allus think about making a trip back up there; I'd like to see your
shop if ever I do.
...I think the last
time I saw you was downtown Boston sometime around 1980 - you were
picking Bach on the street, maybe around Faneuil Hall.
Could of beed- that was a good place for us to play for quite a while.
-J
Sure, stop by - I don't get out much. Contact me here or through my
website (www.lacroixguitars.com).

John L.
John LaCroix
2008-05-02 17:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
Post by John LaCroix
Bigelow...that name is familiar. By any chance were you teaching
guitar to college kids in VT in 1979?
John L.
Yes, I was. Did we meet? Would most likely have been at Middlebury,
UVM, or Johnson State.
Oh, and superb playing!
Steve Perry
2008-05-01 20:51:34 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by JonLorPro
http://youtu.be/O0PCn13xCug
You, sir, have nothing to worry about regarding your ability to play.
Very nicely done.
--
Steve

http://themanwhonevermissed.blogspot.com/
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-01 21:03:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
I was both reticent to exhibit the temerity of posting this in the
Wang Yameng tremolo discussion, and loath to submit it to the recent
"worst recuerdos" thread.  I'll let the group decide in which company
it belongs.  The original (non- HiFi) VHS has a lot of hiss on it
which I tried to mollify, but someone with real expertise in this area
could probably do better. Actual hiss removal programs I've tried made
it sound weird; any engineering suggestions would be welcome.
http://youtu.be/O0PCn13xCug
You rock, JonLorPro!

Andresito
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-05-04 13:21:37 UTC
Permalink
I was both reticent to exhibit the temerity of posting this in the Wang
Yameng tremolo discussion, and loath to submit it to the recent "worst
recuerdos" thread. I'll let the group decide in which company it
belongs. The original (non- HiFi) VHS has a lot of hiss on it which I
tried to mollify, but someone with real expertise in this area could
probably do better. Actual hiss removal programs I've tried made it
sound weird; any engineering suggestions would be welcome.
http://youtu.be/O0PCn13xCug
He's got a big problem with slurs. Probably stupid practice.
(Unlike my 'power slurs':) Reaching for low notes with his
thumb caused a little hesitation, and he wasn't always clean
down there. Why would anyone think that Tarrega required such
a heavier bass? It was heavy already with six strings.

Did you also hear the thing where he capoed up to accompany
his wife? Beautiful.

IAC it opens another can. The thing I don't like about guitars
of more than 7 strings (7th a low D) is lack of balance. Extending the
bass range without extending the treble range makes no sense to me. IMO
the best idea would be to add a high A string and/or tune down a whole
step and add a G, and just admit that it's a renaissance tuned lute and
not a guitar.

I expect a torrent of abuse, but I wonder whether anyone agrees with me.
daveA
--
email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The very best technical exercises for all guitarists:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-04 16:46:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
IAC it opens another can. The thing I don't like about guitars
of more than 7 strings (7th a low D) is lack of balance. Extending the
bass range without extending the treble range makes no sense to me.  IMO
the best idea would be to add a high A string and/or tune down a whole
step and add a G, and just admit that it's a renaissance tuned lute and
not a guitar.
I expect a torrent of abuse, but I wonder whether anyone agrees with me.  
daveA
This is something Ché had previously mentioned. As someone who has
had twenty five 8-string guitars made over 29 years I can say that
what you and he describe has been the main problem (though not the
only problem). One of the reasons I have liked doing several guitars,
or more than several, with one luthier at a time is the chance to
solve problems.

Darren Hippner has been able to solve this problem, by voicing the top
and braces. It took a few to get it, but he got it. The balance on
what I currently own and play is very good.

By the way, I don't like what I've heard to date of the extended
treble guitars. Sound too twangy for my taste. Perhaps someone has,
or will, work that out too. In the meantime, what I have always been
interested in has been more bass range, so the low 'D' and 'A' work
best for me musically, whether for Bach, Joplin, tunes, and especially
in ensemble contexts.

Finally, a lot of what we choose has to do with timbre and degree of
clarity. I have listened to and played 6, 7, 9, 10, and arch/Dresden
type guitars. In the end, I prefer my 8-string, not because I think
it's better, but because the mix of variables suits me the most.

Andrew
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-05-04 17:21:16 UTC
Permalink
IAC it opens another can. The thing I don't like about guitars of more
than 7 strings (7th a low D) is lack of balance. Extending the bass
range without extending the treble range makes no sense to me.  IMO the
best idea would be to add a high A string and/or tune down a whole step
and add a G, and just admit that it's a renaissance tuned lute and not
a guitar.
I expect a torrent of abuse, but I wonder whether anyone agrees with
me. daveA
This is something Ché had previously mentioned. As someone who has had
twenty five 8-string guitars made over 29 years I can say that what you
and he describe has been the main problem (though not the only problem).
One of the reasons I have liked doing several guitars, or more than
several, with one luthier at a time is the chance to solve problems.
Darren Hippner has been able to solve this problem, by voicing the top
and braces. It took a few to get it, but he got it. The balance on
what I currently own and play is very good.
By the way, I don't like what I've heard to date of the extended treble
guitars. Sound too twangy for my taste. Perhaps someone has, or will,
work that out too. In the meantime, what I have always been interested
in has been more bass range, so the low 'D' and 'A' work best for me
musically, whether for Bach, Joplin, tunes, and especially in ensemble
contexts.
Finally, a lot of what we choose has to do with timbre and degree of
clarity. I have listened to and played 6, 7, 9, 10, and arch/Dresden
type guitars. In the end, I prefer my 8-string, not because I think
it's better, but because the mix of variables suits me the most.
Andrew
I appreciate your rational answer. The balance of weight or timbre is
not that adjustable IMO if you want to sound like a guitar and not a
lute. My bitching is about the balance of high and low. My favorite
example is "Mood Indigo". When I tried to play it back in the day,
starting at III with 13x255, the way Charlie Byrd did, it sounded like
crap. It wasn't my playing and it wasn't my guitar, it was just too
damn low. Now I start it at VII with x43111, and the arr. is really
nice, I played it for years at the restaurant gig I had at the time. If
I had raised the key, the high notes would sound like Donald Duck, so
since I wanted a low bridge, I had to raise the river. Close harmony
IMO is the best answer to too heavy a bass, at least for playing
Ellington. IMO. daveA
--
email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The very best technical exercises for all guitarists:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-04 18:14:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I appreciate your rational answer.
I slept late and hadn't had any coffee yet, which is usually the only
time I'm rational, but thanks for noticing!
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
My bitching  is about the balance of high and low.
Yes, I know, and that was what I was referring to. Very tricky to get
right.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
My favorite example is "Mood  Indigo".
Great evocative tune, and with Ellington's woodwinds - so dreamy. The
original is in Ab, you and Byrd are doing it in G, I agree that on
this tune lower is better, I'd suggest doing it in E.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Close harmony IMO is the best answer to too heavy a bass, at least for playing
Ellington.
Ellington, like Bach and Villa-Lobos to new a few, never shied away
from a good strong bass line!

Andrew
Carlos Barrientos
2008-05-04 20:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I appreciate your rational answer.
I slept late and hadn't had any coffee yet, which is usually the only
time I'm rational, but thanks for noticing!
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
My bitching is about the balance of high and low.
Yes, I know, and that was what I was referring to. Very tricky to get
right.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
My favorite example is "Mood Indigo".
Great evocative tune, and with Ellington's woodwinds - so dreamy. The
original is in Ab, you and Byrd are doing it in G, I agree that on
this tune lower is better, I'd suggest doing it in E.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Close harmony IMO is the best answer to too heavy a bass, at least for playing
Ellington.
Ellington, like Bach and Villa-Lobos to new a few, never shied away
from a good strong bass line!
Andrew
No, transcribe ANY of the Bass Players that played in his groups and
learn a bunch!
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-04 21:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
No, transcribe ANY of the Bass Players that played in his groups and
learn a bunch!
Especially Jimmy Blanton!

Andrew
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-05-05 00:49:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I appreciate your rational answer.
I slept late and hadn't had any coffee yet, which is usually the only
time I'm rational, but thanks for noticing!
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
My bitching  is about the balance of high and low.
Yes, I know, and that was what I was referring to. Very tricky to get
right.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
My favorite example is "Mood  Indigo".
Great evocative tune, and with Ellington's woodwinds - so dreamy. The
original is in Ab, you and Byrd are doing it in G, I agree that on this
tune lower is better, I'd suggest doing it in E.
Terrible idea. His arrangement was awful, mine is great. His was the
one with the low bass. So moving it lower is a good idea? What are
you thinking? Why not move Recuerdos down to E?
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Close harmony IMO is the best answer to too heavy a bass, at least for
playing Ellington.
Ellington, like Bach and Villa-Lobos to new a few, never shied away from
a good strong bass line!
It's got nothing to do with line, and everything to do with sound. daveA
--
email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The very best technical exercises for all guitarists:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-05 00:56:44 UTC
Permalink
Terrible idea.  His arrangement was awful, mine is great.
Yes, I'm sure yours was much better than his, to you.
His was the one with the low bass.  So moving it lower is a good idea?
Yes.
 What are you thinking?  Why not move Recuerdos down to E?  
That's a bad idea.
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Close harmony IMO is the best answer to too heavy a bass, at least for
playing Ellington.
Ellington, like Bach and Villa-Lobos to new a few, never shied away from
a good strong bass line!
It's got nothing to do with line, and everything to do with sound.  
Um, David, the bass line has a lot to do with the sound!

Andrew
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-05-05 01:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Terrible idea.  His arrangement was awful, mine is great.
Yes, I'm sure yours was much better than his, to you.
He didn't play his for very long. AFAIK he never got back to it
to figure out what the problem was. When I say I have a much better
arrangement, it's because I have a much better arrangement.
Post by Andrew Schulman
His was the one with the low bass.  So moving it lower is a good idea?
Yes.
No, it's a terrible idea.
Post by Andrew Schulman
 What are you thinking?  Why not move Recuerdos down to E?
That's a bad idea.
And for exactly the same reason.
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Close harmony IMO is the best answer to too heavy a bass, at least
for playing Ellington.
Ellington, like Bach and Villa-Lobos to new a few, never shied away
from a good strong bass line!
It's got nothing to do with line, and everything to do with sound.
Um, David, the bass line has a lot to do with the sound!
Not really. A line is a line regardless of which octave it is in,
but heavy is heavy and too low is too low. daveA
--
email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The very best technical exercises for all guitarists:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-05 05:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Andrew Schulman
His was the one with the low bass.  So moving it lower is a good idea?
Yes.
No, it's a terrible idea.
We disagree.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Andrew Schulman
 What are you thinking?  Why not move Recuerdos down to E?
That's a bad idea.
And for exactly the same reason.
No, you are comparing apples and oranges.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Andrew Schulman
It's got nothing to do with line, and everything to do with sound.
Um, David, the bass line has a lot to do with the sound!
Not really.  A line is a line regardless of which octave it is in,
but heavy is heavy and too low is too low.  daveA
I don't think E is too low for this piece.

Andrew
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-05-05 11:13:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Andrew Schulman
His was the one with the low bass.  So moving it lower is a good idea?
Yes.
No, it's a terrible idea.
We disagree.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Andrew Schulman
 What are you thinking?  Why not move Recuerdos down to E?
That's a bad idea.
And for exactly the same reason.
No, you are comparing apples and oranges.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Andrew Schulman
It's got nothing to do with line, and everything to do with sound.
Um, David, the bass line has a lot to do with the sound!
Not really.  A line is a line regardless of which octave it is in, but
heavy is heavy and too low is too low.  daveA
I don't think E is too low for this piece.
Andrew
I do, for guitar. Try it in both keys. daveA
--
email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The very best technical exercises for all guitarists:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-05 16:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
I don't think E is too low for this piece.
Andrew
I do, for guitar.  Try it in both keys.  daveA
OK, I will have time later today or tomorrow.

Andrew
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-06 20:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Andrew Schulman
Andrew
I do, for guitar.  Try it in both keys.  daveA
OK, I will have time later today or tomorrow.
Andrew
I tried it in several keys, and listened to Ellington, Bechet,
Sinatra, Bennet, Byrd, Robeson, and several others.

Byrd does indeed do it in G, and of course using the whole range of
the guitar, alla low 'G' etc., is advisable.

Published in Ab, Ellington and most of the Jazz groups play it in Bb.
Tony Bennett sings it in Ab, Joe Pass plays it also in Ab. For six-
string I recommend 'E', 'D' sounds great on 8-string, which is the key
Paul Robeson sings it in.

Keep in mind the title, Mood Indigo; indigo is a very dark color, so
whatever key, the deep bass helps provide the mood.

Andrew
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-05-06 23:12:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
don't think E is too low for this piece.
Post by Andrew Schulman
Andrew
I do, for guitar.  Try it in both keys.  daveA
OK, I will have time later today or tomorrow.
Andrew
I tried it in several keys, and listened to Ellington, Bechet, Sinatra,
Bennet, Byrd, Robeson, and several others.
Byrd does indeed do it in G, and of course using the whole range of the
guitar, alla low 'G' etc., is advisable.
Published in Ab, Ellington and most of the Jazz groups play it in Bb.
Tony Bennett sings it in Ab, Joe Pass plays it also in Ab. For six-
string I recommend 'E', 'D' sounds great on 8-string, which is the key
Paul Robeson sings it in.
Keep in mind the title, Mood Indigo; indigo is a very dark color, so
whatever key, the deep bass helps provide the mood.
I disagree. A million times better in G. Be well. daveA
--
email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The very best technical exercises for all guitarists:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-07 03:13:28 UTC
Permalink
I disagree. A million times better in G.  Be well.
You too!

Andrew
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-04 18:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I appreciate your rational answer.
I slept late and hadn't had any coffee yet, which is usually the only
time I'm rational, but thanks for noticing!
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
My bitching is about the balance of high and low.
Yes, I know, and that was what I was referring to. Very tricky to
get
right.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
My favorite example is "Mood Indigo".
Great evocative tune, and with Ellington's woodwinds - so dreamy. The
original is in Ab, you and Byrd are doing it in G, I agree that on
this tune lower is better, I'd suggest doing it in E for solo guitar.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Close harmony IMO is the best answer to too heavy a bass, at least for playing Ellington.
Ellington, like Bach and Villa-Lobos to name a few, never shied away
from a good strong bass line!

Andrew
Tashi
2008-05-04 19:52:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
By the way, I don't like what I've heard to date of the extended
treble guitars.  Sound too twangy for my taste.  Perhaps someone has,
or will, work that out too.  
Andrew
Yes, Schramm and I have covered the topic of extended trebles in
the crash and burn section of the RNCG. The extended treble
otherwise known as the high A string needs to be the same diameter as
the treble on a normal 6 string guitar to get anything out of it.

MT
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-04 21:12:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
By the way, I don't like what I've heard to date of the extended
treble guitars.  Sound too twangy for my taste.  Perhaps someone has,
or will, work that out too.  
Andrew
   Yes, Schramm and I have covered the topic of extended trebles in
the crash and burn section of the RNCG.  The extended treble
otherwise known as the high A string needs to be the same diameter as
the treble on a normal 6 string guitar to get anything out of it.
Can you take that diameter up to 'a' without breaking it?

I'd try it but my dogs are scared of loud popping noises.

Andrew
JonLorPro
2008-05-05 19:46:11 UTC
Permalink
You do raise some interesting questions which will get to, but first,
in your characteristic fashion, you grossly and speciously exaggerate
for self-serving purpose.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
He's got a big problem with slurs. Probably stupid practice.
(Unlike my 'power slurs')
Yes, a couple of the ornaments in the first section did not come out
with clarity. There are different factors as to why that may occur in
any one performance, but basically, I am not a flawless technician.
I am forced to admit to being less than John Williams in that regard.
But by focusing on those instances and ignoring the others you are
making much out of little. There is no aspect of my technique in
which there is not room for improvement, slurs included, but I do not
have a "hig problem" with them. My practice of them has been much
more intelligent than would be afforded by your power slurs.
Not that there's anything inherently wrong with your slur routine,
the closest you have come to a pure technical exercise in your
technical set. It could do anybody some good, yet of the entire lot
of all exercizes you have come up with it is the one most woefully
inadequate in measuring up to the claim you inexorably make for
everything you do, of attaining to singularly complete and eclipsing
sufficiency to address the intended purpose- and its up against some
pretty stiff competition from your site for that distinction. You have
confined the entirety of your attention to the simple aspect of
strength for "pow" in slurs isolated from any technical context other
that of an entirely free hand, and only as executed by adjacent
fingers, and by sounding the first note of upward slurs with the right
hand only as an exercise for the upper finger of adjacent pairs. This
is ok for an extremely narrow purpose, and the energy aspect is
important to include in any actually adequate slur exercise, but your
recommendation of this only, as sufficient preparation for repertoire
contexts is like recommending weight training as sole preparation for
olympic gymnastics. Anyone who has relied upon this recommendation of
yours will quickly discover that it is quite a different proposition
from your exercise to execute a slur at one lateral extreme of the
fingerboard while the other fingers are holding a position at the
other, or while barring, or in the context of a reach out of
position. Anyone inculcated only in your slow, deliberate, string-
breaking fingerboard crushing half-step only routine will risk finding
themselves fingertied at any passage calling for a quick, light
negotiation through several succesive re-ordered fingerings in
different pairings for slurred and non-slurred notes within a context
including any variety of configurative combination. There is great
meaning in the preparation for such situations afforded by the left
hand combination exercises, that can be developed from the
formulations of your predecessors and betters, that you have so often
and erroneously decried in lieu of positive promulgation of your
ideas. .

Listen to the rest of the Recuerdos- or try this one:

http://boomp3.com/listen/aj04m27/recuerdos-de-la-alhambra

This is my recording of Recuerdos done on six string several years
earlier, done in one take unedited except for the very last chord
(recorded by an engineer who only had delay, not reverb, to work
with). You can slow it down and listen through every one of the
slurred ornaments in this performance and hear distinctly the three
note triplets.
More to the point, listen to the video of the Courante. There are
slurs in there executed within contexts for which your page alone
would provide hopelessly insufficient preparation- and this was
recorded at the end of the third day of playing nearly constantly from
morning to late afternoon. The reason I am able to do this is because
I deliberately inculcate relaxation into my technique, which is
another area in which absolutely nothing you have had to say has been
right.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Reaching for low notes with his
thumb caused a little hesitation,
This you simply made up. Not once did this reach interrupt the
forward flow.
I have no problem admitting to actual deficiencies. There is plenty of
genuine opportunity in this performance for nitpicking and carping
which I'm surprised you didn't mention. You must not have noticed, I
don't think you practiced forbearance out of kindness. But, there is
more chance for this in the other Recuerdos, and in the Courante, if
you don't wish to address pacing, phrasing, overall arc of
performance, etc.

Now that fictional compalints have been disposed of,
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
and he wasn't always clean
down there.
That may be, but I don't think it was any lack of cleanness to which
you were responding. I've since refingered some of those spots. But
now we are getting to matter for more meritorious discussion, inherent
worthiness of concept apart from my execution of it.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Why would anyone think that Tarrega required such
a heavier bass? It was heavy already with six strings.
I'm not surprised that _you_ responded in this fashion, but I am
that no one else has. I am gratified at the favorable commentary thus
far, but I also expected that more people would suggest that it was
superfluous, that Recuerdos is complete in its original state, etc.
You raise a legitimate question, and present a point of view which
should be considered.
In a way, to offer up something like this is to ask that question. The
"multi-string" field is increasing, and variegating, which I think is
in a phase of positive evolution at present, but I am also cognizant
of the precedent of development to extreme of the Baroque lute. I'm
not seeking validation as a determinant to whether or not I will
continue in this vein, but I am interested in how it is received.
Consider it a poll, if you will.
My answer to the way you put it in regard to this specific piece is
that Recuerdos "requires" it no more than any of us is "required" to
play original Recuerdos, or to play guitar at all. Its not that the
original composition overtly suffers for lack of having been written
without the low basses, but the addition of them does enhance the
profundity of gesture by allowing the bass some separation and
independence to define the tonal space- otherwise the whole tessitura
simply moves in parallel. One can denote on paper a quick sketch of a
bird in flight by drawing two horizontally conjoined shallow upward
curving arcs, resulting in a minimalist representative icon we all
recognize. But the sense of height and space is immediately made
more palpable when given the reference of some opposing arcs
underneath, overlapping so as to give the impression of the horizon of
a rolling landscape far below. This is what adding the basses in
Recuerdos does, I don't think the result is heaviness. If Recuerdos is
"heavy already with six strings" when you play it, then perhaps its
simply because you are playing it too heavily.
I am aware, though, of the potential pitfall of adding basses
everywhere in everything simply because they are available. The
merits and rational to doing so are different for each piece; often
there is no benefit to be derived, but it sometimes seems that in
making ones judgment a fine line must be discerned on the other side
of which is gratuitous indulgence. Recuerdos perhaps approaches this
line, but for reasons alluded to above I am comfortable with what I
have done and I don't think it crosses over. I've expanded a couple
of Milan pavans this way, but not others and have generally left his
fantasias alone; the bass line in the Scarlatti A maj. K. 322
definitely can be animated throughout in this way by relieving too
frequent repetition of notes at the same octave- rendered in notes
inegales style it becomes almost jazzy, with a walking bass - but the
Allemande and Bouree from Bachs first lute suite (even doing them up a
fourth in A) are fine left the way they are with only a couple of
additions. Certain of Sor's and Carcassi's etudes sound very nice
with low basses, and others don't There are are cadences in Legnani
and Giuliani which cry out for continuation to a low final tonic which
could not be written in, but would have had they been composed for
piano. Some Villa-Lobos and arrangements of Ravel sound wonderfuly
expansive with the availment of this resource, but the choros #1 is
best left as it is except for a couple of low B's.

Try listening to these, both arrangements of Bach pieces, but which
raise very different questions as to transcriptive philosophy:

http://www.boomp3.com/listen/f6c9ean/jesu

http://www.boomp3.com/listen/c4rhngf/gavottes-sixth-cello-suite
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
IAC it opens another can. The thing I don't like about guitars
of more than 7 strings (7th a low D) is lack of balance. Extending the
bass range without extending the treble range makes no sense to me.
To some extent I agree with you. But the reason for a multiplicty of
additions in the bass is that if any interval of increase downwards is
to be sufficiently available for use, then the notes within that range
also somehow have to be available when they can't be reached for
because of whatever else may be going on. I think Andrew can back me
up on how frequently at least that one string is needed within the
additional fourth. On the other hand, it can be like moving into a
larger apartment, or a woman getting a bigger purse. At first it
seems spacious, but before long it gets just as crowded with
essentials as before, and one wishes one had even more room for having
encountered constraint in what one wishes to do. Everyone has to set
their own design limits. .
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
..the best idea would be to add a high A string and/or tune down a whole
step and add a G, and just admit that it's a renaissance tuned lute and
not a guitar.
Didn't you notice? Not very discerning of you- or perhaps you already
knew that one of the definitions of IAC in the online Internet Lingo
acronym dictionary is "I am confused". Thats exactly what I did. My
first string is an A. If you couldn't tell this from the ninth
measure when it goes into C, surely the mid neck location of the
penultimate chord should have clued you in. I do enjoy playing lute
music in the appropriate tuning afforded thereby, but your suggestion
that this somehow enforces an admittance as if in consequent removal
thereby from the focus of valid discussion as "lute and not a guitar"
is as completely nonsensical as those who insisted Bream played guitar
shaped like a lute. You're looking for stupidity? There it is.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I expect a torrent of abuse...
I think you crave abuse- thats why you yourself have so readily been
abusive in the past; its a milieu in which you seem comfortable and
seem to want to foster, and its more credible that you are simply
trying to elicit like response than that you actually believe some of
the things you say.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
but I wonder whether anyone agrees with me.
So would I- about issues such as the place for such instruments and
their use in the repertoire, and what meaning such endeovor can have
from various points of view..
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Did you also hear the thing where he capoed up to accompany
his wife? Beautiful.
Thank you- sincerely. I'm glad you do find place for the expanded
resource. Assuming you are referring to "The Sally Gardens", I tried
to come up with an accompaniment that supported the vocal line without
simply replicating it, had some variety, but was unpretentious. The
same for "The Blue Handkerchief", though that arrangement owes a bit
more to what I heard Mary O'Hara playing on harp as she accompanied
herself on one of her records.
starbuc2
2008-05-06 00:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
You do raise some interesting questions which will get to, but first,
in your characteristic fashion,  you grossly and speciously exaggerate
for self-serving purpose.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
He's got a big problem with slurs. Probably stupid practice.
(Unlike my 'power slurs')
  Yes, a couple of the ornaments in the first section did not come out
with clarity. There are different factors as to why that may occur in
any one performance, but basically,  I am not a flawless technician.
I am forced to admit to being less than John Williams in that regard.
But by focusing on those instances and ignoring the others you are
making much out of little.  There is no aspect of my technique in
which there is not room for improvement, slurs included, but I do not
have a "hig problem" with them.  My practice of them has been much
more intelligent than would be afforded by your power slurs.
  Not that there's anything inherently wrong with your slur routine,
the closest you have come to a pure technical exercise in your
technical set.  It could do anybody some good, yet of the entire lot
of all exercizes you have come up with it is the one most woefully
inadequate in measuring up to the claim you inexorably make for
everything you do, of attaining to singularly complete and eclipsing
sufficiency to address the intended purpose- and its up against some
pretty stiff competition from your site for that distinction. You have
confined the entirety of your attention to the simple aspect of
strength for "pow" in slurs isolated from any technical context other
that of an entirely free hand, and only as executed by adjacent
fingers, and by sounding the first note of upward slurs with the right
hand only as an exercise for the upper finger of adjacent pairs.  This
is ok for an extremely narrow purpose, and the energy aspect is
important to include in any actually adequate slur exercise, but your
recommendation of this only, as sufficient preparation for repertoire
contexts is like recommending weight training as sole preparation for
olympic gymnastics.  Anyone who has relied upon this recommendation of
yours will quickly discover that it is quite a different proposition
from your exercise to execute a slur at one lateral extreme of the
fingerboard while the other fingers are holding a position at the
other, or while barring, or in the context of a reach out of
position.  Anyone inculcated only in your slow, deliberate, string-
breaking fingerboard crushing half-step only routine will risk finding
themselves fingertied at any passage calling for a quick, light
negotiation through several succesive re-ordered fingerings in
different pairings for slurred and non-slurred notes within a context
including any variety of configurative combination.  There is great
meaning in the preparation for such situations afforded by the left
hand combination exercises, that can be developed from the
formulations of your predecessors and betters, that you have so often
and erroneously decried in lieu of positive promulgation of your
ideas.  .
http://boomp3.com/listen/aj04m27/recuerdos-de-la-alhambra
This is my recording of Recuerdos done on six string several years
earlier, done in one take unedited except for the very last chord
(recorded by an engineer who only had delay, not reverb, to work
with).  You can slow it down and listen through every one of the
slurred ornaments in this performance and hear distinctly the three
note triplets.
  More to the point, listen to the video of the Courante.  There are
slurs in there executed within contexts for which your page alone
would provide hopelessly insufficient preparation- and this was
recorded at the end of the third day of playing nearly constantly from
morning to late afternoon.  The reason I am able to do this is because
I deliberately inculcate relaxation into my technique, which is
another area in which absolutely nothing you have had to say has been
right.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Reaching for low notes with his
thumb caused a little hesitation,
This you simply made up.  Not once did this reach interrupt the
forward flow.
I have no problem admitting to actual deficiencies. There is plenty of
genuine opportunity in this performance for nitpicking and carping
which I'm surprised you didn't mention.  You must not have noticed, I
don't think you practiced forbearance out of kindness. But, there is
more chance for this in the other Recuerdos,  and in the Courante, if
you don't wish to address pacing, phrasing, overall arc of
performance, etc.
Now that fictional compalints have been disposed of,
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
and he wasn't always clean
down there.
That may be, but I don't think it was any lack of cleanness to which
you were responding. I've since refingered some of those spots. But
now we are getting to matter for more meritorious discussion, inherent
worthiness of concept apart from my execution of it.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Why would anyone think that Tarrega required such
a heavier bass? It was heavy already with six strings.
  I'm not surprised that _you_ responded in this fashion, but I am
that no one else has.  I am gratified at the favorable commentary thus
far, but I also expected that more people would suggest that it was
superfluous, that Recuerdos is complete in its original state, etc.
You raise a legitimate question, and present a point of view which
should be considered.
In a way, to offer up something like this is to ask that question. The
"multi-string" field is increasing, and variegating,  which I think is
in a phase of positive evolution at present, but I am also cognizant
of the precedent of development to extreme of the Baroque lute.  I'm
not seeking validation as a determinant to whether or not I will
continue in this vein, but I am interested in how it is received.
Consider it a poll, if you will.
My answer to the way you put it in regard to this specific piece is
that Recuerdos "requires" it no more than any of us is "required" to
play original Recuerdos, or to play guitar at all.  Its not that the
original composition overtly suffers for lack of having been written
without the low basses, but the addition of them does enhance the
profundity of gesture by allowing the bass some separation and
independence to define the tonal space- otherwise the whole tessitura
simply moves in parallel.  One can denote on paper a quick sketch of a
bird in flight by drawing two horizontally conjoined shallow upward
curving arcs, resulting in a minimalist representative  icon we all
recognize.  But the sense of height and space is immediately  made
more palpable when given the reference of some opposing arcs
underneath, overlapping so as to give the impression of the horizon of
a rolling landscape far below.  This is what adding the basses in
Recuerdos does, I don't think the result is heaviness. If Recuerdos is
"heavy already with six strings" when you play it, then perhaps its
simply because you are playing it too heavily.
 I am aware, though, of the potential pitfall of adding basses
everywhere in everything simply because they are available.  The
merits and rational to doing so are different for each piece; often
there is no benefit to be derived, but it sometimes seems that in
making ones judgment a fine line must be discerned on the other side
of which is gratuitous indulgence.  Recuerdos perhaps approaches this
line, but for reasons alluded to above I am comfortable with what I
have done and I don't think it crosses over.  I've expanded a couple
of Milan pavans this way, but not others and have generally left his
fantasias alone; the bass line in the Scarlatti A maj. K. 322
definitely  can be animated throughout in this way by relieving too
frequent repetition of notes at the same octave- rendered in notes
inegales style it becomes almost jazzy, with a walking bass - but the
Allemande and Bouree from Bachs first lute suite (even doing them up a
fourth in A) are fine left the way they are with only a couple of
additions.  Certain of Sor's and Carcassi's etudes sound very nice
with low basses, and others don't   There are are cadences in Legnani
and Giuliani which cry out for continuation to a low final tonic which
could not be written in, but would have had they been composed for
piano. Some Villa-Lobos and arrangements of Ravel sound wonderfuly
expansive with the availment of this resource, but the choros #1 is
best left as it is except for a couple of low B's.
Try listening to these, both arrangements of Bach pieces, but which
http://www.boomp3.com/listen/f6c9ean/jesu
http://www.boomp3.com/listen/c4rhngf/gavottes-sixth-cello-suite
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
IAC it opens another can. The thing I don't like about guitars
of more than 7 strings (7th a low D) is lack of balance. Extending the
bass range without extending the treble range makes no sense to me.
To some extent I agree with you. But the reason for a multiplicty of
additions in the bass is that if any interval of increase downwards is
to be sufficiently available for use, then the notes within that range
also somehow have to be available when they can't be reached for
because of whatever else may be going on.  I think Andrew can back me
up on how frequently at least that one string is needed within the
additional fourth.  On the other hand, it can be like moving into a
larger apartment, or a woman getting a bigger purse.  At first it
seems spacious, but before long it gets just as crowded with
essentials as before, and one wishes one had even more room for having
encountered constraint in what one wishes to do. Everyone has to set
their own design limits. .
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
..the best idea would be to add a high A string and/or tune down a whole
step and add a G, and just admit that it's a renaissance tuned lute and
not a guitar.
Didn't you notice? Not very discerning of you- or perhaps you already
knew that one of the definitions of IAC in the online Internet Lingo
acronym dictionary is "I am confused".  Thats exactly what I did. My
first string is an A.  If you couldn't tell this from the ninth
measure when it goes into C, surely the mid neck location of the
penultimate chord should have clued you in.  I do enjoy playing lute
music in the appropriate tuning afforded thereby, but your suggestion
that this somehow  enforces an admittance as if in consequent removal
thereby from the focus of valid discussion as "lute and not a guitar"
is as completely nonsensical as those who insisted Bream played guitar
shaped like a lute.  You're looking for stupidity? There it is.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I expect a torrent of abuse...
I think you crave abuse-  thats why you yourself have so readily been
abusive in the past; its a milieu in which you seem comfortable and
seem to want to foster, and its more credible that you are simply
trying to elicit like response than that you actually believe some of
the things you say.
 >but I wonder whether anyone agrees with me.
So would I- about issues such as the place for such instruments and
their use in the repertoire, and what meaning such endeovor can have
from various points of view..
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Did you also hear the thing where he capoed up to accompany
his wife? Beautiful.
Thank you- sincerely.  I'm glad you do find place for the expanded
resource.  Assuming you are referring to "The Sally Gardens", I tried
to come up with an accompaniment that supported the vocal line without
simply replicating it, had some variety, but was unpretentious.  The
same for "The Blue Handkerchief", though that arrangement owes a bit
more to what I heard Mary O'Hara playing on harp as she accompanied
herself on one of her records.
A few comments from a fellow multi-string player:

1. Nice to see a multi-string player fight back in a reasonable way
when attacked. We take a lot of s**t sometimes. Even from other multi-
string players.
2. I really enjoyed all your You-tube videos and liked the tremelo you
got on this recording, very smooth and clear.
3. I play a 10 string, used to use Yepes tuning for about 20 yrs, but
switched mainly over to Janet Marlow's tuning a few years back. It
seemed to make sense to be able to use the lower strings for something
other than just open notes or resonance. I still keep one of my five
10 strings in Yepes tuning (just so I'm not considered a total
heretic), another in the old baroque/romantic and the other 3 in
various variations of the Marlow tuning.
4. I too, like to drop a few bass notes just to see/hear the effect.
Sometimes it works (makes things better), sometimes it doesn't (pisses
off 6 string players who can't do it). I like keeping bass lines
intact the way they were originally composed.
5. It is nice to have a few pieces that use most or all of the lower
strings. I always get someone asking for me to play something that
uses the lower strings, so I have a few pieces that were written to
actually use them.
6. Think about going to the 10 string festival in October (Torrington,
CT) if you can. Meet like-minded multi-string players. We get 7 to 17
string guitarists in the group. We always have a good time. Andrew can
come, too.

-Dave
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-07 00:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by starbuc2
5. It is nice to have a few pieces that use most or all of the lower
strings. I always get someone asking for me to play something that
uses the lower strings, so I have a few pieces that were written to
actually use them.
Of the many choices, there is the enormous repertoire of Weiss, of
which there is a current thread, I would guess you play lot's of
that. And then there's the piano repertoire... :-)

Andrew
starbuc2
2008-05-07 16:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by starbuc2
strings. I always get someone asking for me to play something that
uses the lower strings, so I have a few pieces that were written to
actually use them.
Of the many choices, there is the enormous repertoire of Weiss, of
which there is a current thread, I would guess you play lot's of
that.  And then there's the piano repertoire... :-)
Andrew
Quite familiar with Weiss as I played a lot of it on baroque lute many
years ago. It spoiled me rotten. I really miss my lutes, but have a 13
course on order. Weiss on the guitar (no matter how many strings) just
isn't the same. I have worked on a few Weiss pieces over the last 24
yrs or so on 10 string. London Suites 2 and 6 and the Tombeau pour
Logy. Some suites work better than others. I met with Narciso Yepes a
few times between 1984 and 1987 and we had some good discussions about
playing Weiss, Bach and Scarlatti. I tried his tuning then tried the
"Baroque/Romantic" DCBA tuning and then went back to his. For the
London 2 (orig in D) and 6 (orig in E-flat), I played them both in E
major and they worked well without having to redo any voicing. For
both, I did as he did on No. 2, just tuned the 7th to a B. He recorded
No. 2 and the Fantasie. During my short excursion into the DCBA tuning
when I was playing the Tombeau and some of the Sor Harpolyre pieces I
found I didn't like the resonance as much when playing other pieces
(it got a bit bas heavy), so went back to the Yepes tuning until a few
years ago when I switched my main instruments over to the Marlow
tuning which is a nice compromise (resonance wise) between the other
two.

-Dave
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-07 18:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by starbuc2
Quite familiar with Weiss as I played a lot of it on baroque lute many
years ago. It spoiled me rotten. I really miss my lutes, but have a 13
course on order. Weiss on the guitar (no matter how many strings) just
isn't the same.
Of course not, but sometimes it can be quite good. I've been
concentrating a lot of effort on the Weiss repertoire for the past few
months and some translate wonderfully to 8-string, specifically - the
Pastoral in A, the Passacaille (with some pitch changes in the bass
line, but I think they work well), the Presto in Bb, the Capriccio in
D, the Logy Tombeau (of course), the Cm Fantasie, the Siciliana just
discussed recently, etc.


Andrew
starbuc2
2008-05-07 18:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by starbuc2
years ago. It spoiled me rotten. I really miss my lutes, but have a 13
course on order. Weiss on the guitar (no matter how many strings) just
isn't the same.
Of course not, but sometimes it can be quite good.  I've been
concentrating a lot of effort on the Weiss repertoire for the past few
months and some translate wonderfully to 8-string, specifically -  the
Pastoral in A, the Passacaille (with some pitch changes in the bass
line, but I think they work well), the Presto in Bb, the Capriccio in
D, the Logy Tombeau (of course), the Cm Fantasie, the Siciliana just
discussed recently, etc.
Andrew
Andrew,

I agree, it can be quite good. The Tombeau and the Passcaille (from
one of the London suites in D) are some of the pieces that work really
well on guitar. I'll even have to admit a bit of a preference for the
Tombeau on an 8 or 10 string. It's a dark piece and I think the
heavier tone of the guitar can enhance that. One of my frustrations
was not being able to do ornamentation on the guitar as easily as I
could on the lute. I like to find a middle ground here as I don't
think enough guitarists pay attention to the ornamentation markings
and sometimes the lute players get a bit carried away with it. I also
miss the octaves in the basses on the lute. There was something
magical to me about those. It is a goldmine of beautiful music. I've
also looked a bit at the Straube, Weichenberger, Hagen and Falkenhagen
pieces. Thought about transcribing a few Hagen sonatas when I can find
the time. There is some nice music in the post-Weiss lute music. Have
you looked at any of that?

-Dave
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-07 19:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by starbuc2
I agree, it can be quite good. The Tombeau and the Passcaille (from
one of the London suites in D) are some of the pieces that work really
well on guitar. I'll even have to admit a bit of a preference for the
Tombeau on an 8 or 10 string. It's a dark piece and I think the
heavier tone of the guitar can enhance that.
Yes!
Post by starbuc2
One of my frustrations was not being able to do ornamentation on the guitar as easily as I
could on the lute. I like to find a middle ground here as I don't
think enough guitarists pay attention to the ornamentation markings
and sometimes the lute players get a bit carried away with it.
Yes, a lute player just pointed this out to me!
Post by starbuc2
Thought about transcribing a few Hagen sonatas when I can find
the time. There is some nice music in the post-Weiss lute music. Have
you looked at any of that?
Just listened to Barto play Hagen, very nice, will look for scores.

Andrew
starbuc2
2008-05-07 19:20:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by starbuc2
I agree, it can be quite good. The Tombeau and the Passcaille (from
one of the London suites in D) are some of the pieces that work really
well on guitar. I'll even have to admit a bit of a preference for the
Tombeau on an 8 or 10 string. It's a dark piece and I think the
heavier tone of the guitar can enhance that.
Yes!
Post by starbuc2
 One of my frustrations was not being able to do ornamentation on the guitar as easily as I
could on the lute. I like to find a middle ground here as I don't
think enough guitarists pay attention to the ornamentation markings
and sometimes the lute players get a bit carried away with it.
Yes, a lute player just pointed this out to me!
Post by starbuc2
 Thought about transcribing a few Hagen sonatas when I can find
the time. There is some nice music in the post-Weiss lute music. Have
you looked at any of that?
Just listened to Barto play Hagen, very nice, will look for scores.
Andrew
Falkenhagen fairly easy to find online. A few Weichenberger available
online, but not the best stuff. There was a great book of
Weichenberger in the Ohio State University Music Library that I copied
a few pages out of years ago. I'd like to get the whole book, but
haven't found a source yet. Never could find Hagen online except for
one sonata in Bb and the duo (which is really nice). I have a
facsimile book that seems to have most of the Hagen that Barto
recorded on the two CDs. Looks difficult even on the lute. Took
forever to get it. I think the Locatelli variations might be fun.

Also, a nice recording of two Weiss pieces, Perf de Castro recorded
the Cm Fantasie (in D minor) and also a d minor allegro from the
Moscow mss on his CD. There's other nice stuff on the CD. He was using
a 10 string Ramirez on that CD. You can get it from him on his website
www.perfdecastro.com .

-Dave
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-07 20:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Falkenhagen fairly easy to find online...
Dave -

Thanks for all the info.

Andrew
starbuc2
2008-05-08 18:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Dave -
Thanks for all the info.
Andrew
Andrew, et al.

You may already be familiar with some of these sources, but for those
who don't:

go to www dot slweiss dot com
go under the literature link. Michel Cardin's analysis of the London
Mss. I think you can still order his CDs where he has recorded the
entire London on 12 CDs.

There is a French site that has Weiss London, Dresden, Moscow, Vienna,
etc. along with Falkenhagen, Baron, Kuhnel, Lauffensteiner,
Weichenberger. You can get the lute tab or notation. I can't get the
link in here, but I could email it to you if you don't already know
it.

Which Barto CD of Hagen did you listen to, the Naxos or the other?

-Dave
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-08 20:11:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by starbuc2
Which Barto CD of Hagen did you listen to, the Naxos or the other?
Symphonia

Andrew
starbuc2
2008-05-08 20:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Symphonia
Andrew
I have that one, too. The Naxos CD is equally good. I don't think
there are any duplicate pieces.

-Dave
Robert Crim
2008-05-07 17:59:41 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 6 May 2008 17:22:00 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Schulman
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by starbuc2
5. It is nice to have a few pieces that use most or all of the lower
strings. I always get someone asking for me to play something that
uses the lower strings, so I have a few pieces that were written to
actually use them.
Of the many choices, there is the enormous repertoire of Weiss, of
which there is a current thread, I would guess you play lot's of
that. And then there's the piano repertoire... :-)
Andrew
There is also the ten course lute repertoire (Vallet, Ballard, etc.)

Robert
starbuc2
2008-05-07 18:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Tue, 6 May 2008 17:22:00 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Schulman
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by starbuc2
5. It is nice to have a few pieces that use most or all of the lower
strings. I always get someone asking for me to play something that
uses the lower strings, so I have a few pieces that were written to
actually use them.
Of the many choices, there is the enormous repertoire of Weiss, of
which there is a current thread, I would guess you play lot's of
that.  And then there's the piano repertoire... :-)
Andrew
There is also the ten course lute repertoire (Vallet, Ballard, etc.)
Robert
Robert,

Yes, this is very good music and a ton of it. A number of 10 stringers
play this repertoire.

-Dave
JonLorPro
2008-05-12 23:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by starbuc2
1. Nice to see a multi-string player fight back in a reasonable way
when attacked. We take a lot of s**t sometimes. Even from other multi-
string players.
Thanks for rallying 'round. I have not actually encountered a lot
of open hostility, just occasional comments made to the effect that
some one finds six strings to be "enough" to contend with, said as
though if its enough for him, it should be enough for anybody- the
connotation being that "more strings" is a tangential pursuit in which
is missed what the real point of playing guitar is supposed to be, and
therefore I am not to be taken seriously. Did you ever read Segovias
predictably jaundiced view on this in his article on the subject
printed in a Guitar Review many years ago?.
As an aside, around the time I obtained my first eleven-string from
Walter Stanul- he played a cut for me from a Mario Ecsudero record
during which at one point there were a couple of descending phrases in
succession, the last of which was half cadence on E, a low E in the
bass. Simply because of his manner of approach, the way he had
constructed the piece up until that point, the effect was as if he had
gone down to the bottom of the ocean. We had to laugh at ourselves-
Walter said, "Here we are going to all this trouble and expense of
building and learning to play these instruments, and this guy gets
what we're after just by the way he plays a six string!"
Post by starbuc2
I still keep one of my five
10 strings in Yepes tuning...
another in the old baroque/romantic and the other 3 in
various variations of the Marlow tuning.
I'm envious! Also about Andrew and his having been able to go through
having had 26 guitars made over the years to settle on one to suit his
preference. I've only got the two, and would only have one if it
weren't for the beneficence of a paron- a friend and colleague,
actually.
Post by starbuc2
I too, like to drop a few bass notes just to see/hear the effect....
Sometimes it works (makes things better), sometimes it doesn't...
I like keeping bass lines intact the way they were originally composed.
It is nice to have a few pieces that use most or all of the lower
strings. I always get someone asking for me to play something that
uses the lower strings...
Sometimes I get questions as to their usage and why I have them from
people who simply happened not to be looking when I used the the
basses (one place I play every week is at a restauraunt for Sunday
Brunch, people don't pay constant attention) often the way the
question is put is wheter they are just "drones"- which I am never
sure is supposed to mean "are they only played as open strings", or
"are they there for resonance only?" So I explain that most of the
time I have the note I need as an open string, but I do have occasion
to fret them all, but not all the time because I do play alot of six
string music, and yadda. Its occurred to me, but I've never put it to
anyone because it would seem slightly confrontational, that it
wouldn't occur to them to ask a pianist why he didn't use every key on
the keyboard.
I don't mind messing around with a bass line, especially if it seems
to me that there is a potential in piece unrealized because the
composer was operating within the standard parameter. An example is
Carcassi's third etude- the B section.begins with a few measures of a
dominant pedal that is reiterated in octave motion between the low and
middle E's. Later on there is a tonic pedal with the same rhythmic
profile, but it is confined to reiteration in the same register on the
open A. I like to play it as written the first time through, but on
the repeat I will drop the bass line starting with the second bass F#
in the sixth measure of the B section (in the F# minor chord) and stay
down an octave for the remainder, except that the secondary notes of
the tonic pedal can be played at the original octave, thus giving the
same treatment to this section as was given in the opening dominant
pedal. This adds a lot to the sense that the piece has developed
into its repeat.
Post by starbuc2
I have a few pieces that were written to actually use them.
Any available?
Post by starbuc2
Think about going to the 10 string festival in October (Torrington,
CT) if you can. Meet like-minded multi-string players. We get 7 to 17
string guitarists in the group. We always have a good time. Andrew can
come, too.
Sounds like a blast. I have a hard enough time figuring what I will be
doing the next day, or a week from now, though, and have no idea what
latitude I will have in October. If I can, I'd like to come, though.
-J
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-13 00:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
I'm envious! Also about Andrew and his having been able to go through
having had 26 guitars made over the years to settle on one to suit his
preference.  I've only got the two, and would only have one if it
weren't for the beneficence of a paron- a friend and colleague,
actually.
I have 4 now and use all of them, although one is "best". In a month,
when the 2 new ones are 6 months old, I will write a bit about them as
all the tonewoods are different, however, the bracing and overall
specs are the mostly the same.

Andrew
Robert Crim
2008-05-13 00:37:35 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 May 2008 17:09:15 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Schulman
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by JonLorPro
I'm envious! Also about Andrew and his having been able to go through
having had 26 guitars made over the years to settle on one to suit his
preference.  I've only got the two, and would only have one if it
weren't for the beneficence of a paron- a friend and colleague,
actually.
I have 4 now and use all of them, although one is "best". In a month,
when the 2 new ones are 6 months old, I will write a bit about them as
all the tonewoods are different, however, the bracing and overall
specs are the mostly the same.
Andrew
That's quite a different take than mine. My "newest" guitar is 4
years old. It is still getting settled. The oldest (that I actually
use) is a 1968 Van de Geest. Then there is the '71 Marcelino Lopez,
the '70 Bohlin 10 string and a few others of similar vintage. They
are all spruce tops so I guess they just need a little time.

Robert
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-13 04:16:44 UTC
Permalink
That's quite a different take than mine.  My "newest" guitar is 4
years old.  It is still getting settled.  The oldest (that I actually
use) is a 1968 Van de Geest.  Then there is the '71 Marcelino Lopez,
the '70 Bohlin 10 string and a few others of similar vintage.  They
are all spruce tops so I guess they just need a little time.
That Van de Geest has one of the purtiest Braz rosewood backs I've
ever seen. You lucky dawg!

Andrew
Robert Crim
2008-05-13 19:38:12 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 May 2008 21:16:44 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Schulman
Post by Andrew Schulman
That's quite a different take than mine.  My "newest" guitar is 4
years old.  It is still getting settled.  The oldest (that I actually
use) is a 1968 Van de Geest.  Then there is the '71 Marcelino Lopez,
the '70 Bohlin 10 string and a few others of similar vintage.  They
are all spruce tops so I guess they just need a little time.
That Van de Geest has one of the purtiest Braz rosewood backs I've
ever seen. You lucky dawg!
Andrew
Indeed, who knew you could get wood like that in S. Africa 40 years
ago. Sounds nice too. It was quite a hit at the last lute camp since
Van de Geest was one of the pioneers of the "historical" lute revival.

Robert
starbuc2
2008-05-13 17:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Mon, 12 May 2008 17:09:15 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Schulman
Post by JonLorPro
I'm envious! Also about Andrew and his having been able to go through
having had 26 guitars made over the years to settle on one to suit his
preference.  I've only got the two, and would only have one if it
weren't for the beneficence of a paron- a friend and colleague,
actually.
I have 4 now and use all of them, although one is "best".  In a month,
when the 2 new ones are 6 months old, I will write a bit about them as
all the tonewoods are different, however, the bracing and overall
specs are the mostly the same.
Andrew
That's quite a different take than mine.  My "newest" guitar is 4
years old.  It is still getting settled.  The oldest (that I actually
use) is a 1968 Van de Geest.  Then there is the '71 Marcelino Lopez,
the '70 Bohlin 10 string and a few others of similar vintage.  They
are all spruce tops so I guess they just need a little time.
Robert
Seems like everyone has more than one. My newest ones are the Chavarry
10 strings that I got last June. If you are on the Yahoo 10 string
group there are pictures in the photos section. A friend of mine had a
Chavarry 10 string made and I liked it a lot and so got in contact
with him and had him build me two. One cedar and one spruce top. Back,
sides and neck look like they were all cut from the same logs. He used
Bolivian Jacaranda for the backs and sides and some kind of heavy
Peruvian mahogany for the necks. The necks are the only issue I've
had, they're just a bit too heavy. They have some interesting
contrasts in sound. I was interested to see if he could build two
instruments as close as possible except for the soundboard wood. Two
of the other three 10 strings are from the early 80s. One a cedar/
laminated Indian Matsuoka and the other a cedar/indian J. Thomas
Davis. The other is a Chinese made prototype instrument that I bought
from Perf de Castro a few years back. No label in it, so we don't know
who really made it. Body was based on a Fleta design but was poorly
built, the neck is a work of art. I have to figure there was more than
one builder involved on that one.

-Dave
Robert Crim
2008-05-13 19:21:53 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 May 2008 10:05:09 -0700 (PDT), starbuc2
Post by starbuc2
Seems like everyone has more than one.
Guitars are like potato chips......you have just one.

Robert
Robert Crim
2008-05-13 19:24:43 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 May 2008 15:21:53 -0400, Robert Crim
Post by Robert Crim
On Tue, 13 May 2008 10:05:09 -0700 (PDT), starbuc2
Post by starbuc2
Seems like everyone has more than one.
Guitars are like potato chips......you have just one.
Robert
Amend that:
Guitars are like potato chips......you can't have just one.

R.
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-13 19:38:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
Guitars are like potato chips......you can't have just one.
I guess like beer too, eh?

Andrew
Robert Crim
2008-05-13 19:42:52 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 May 2008 12:38:39 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Schulman
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Robert Crim
Guitars are like potato chips......you can't have just one.
I guess like beer too, eh?
Andrew
No, I can be quite happy with just one brewski, but just one chip?
Not possible.

Robert
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-13 20:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Tue, 13 May 2008 12:38:39 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Schulman
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Robert Crim
Guitars are like potato chips......you can't have just one.
I guess like beer too, eh?
Andrew
No, I can be quite happy with just one brewski, but just one chip?
Not possible.
Old saying: at least 2 beers, gazillion potato chips.

Andresito
starbuc2
2008-05-13 19:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
I guess like beer too, eh?
Andrew
My wife is much more accepting of "you can never have too many musical
instruments" than "you can never have too many antique cars".
Therefore the car hobby has been replaced by an ever growing number of
instruments. She has three accordians. Instruments seem to live better
in pairs or more. We have 2 violas, 2 mandolins, 2 cellos. I'm
temporarily down to just one lonely lute. We have a small house and
not much space to keep things, but I think I can squeeze in a few more
lutes and guitars.
-Dave
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-13 20:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by starbuc2
My wife is much more accepting of "you can never have too many musical
instruments" than "you can never have too many antique cars".
Therefore the car hobby has been replaced by an ever growing number of
instruments. She has three accordians. Instruments seem to live better
in pairs or more. We have 2 violas, 2 mandolins, 2 cellos. I'm
temporarily down to just one lonely lute. We have a small house and
not much space to keep things, but I think I can squeeze in a few more
lutes and guitars.
For us it's guitars and dogs (3rd puppy scheduled for next October or
so).

Andrew
Carlos Barrientos
2008-05-14 00:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by starbuc2
My wife is much more accepting of "you can never have too many musical
instruments" than "you can never have too many antique cars".
Therefore the car hobby has been replaced by an ever growing number of
instruments. She has three accordians. Instruments seem to live better
in pairs or more. We have 2 violas, 2 mandolins, 2 cellos. I'm
temporarily down to just one lonely lute. We have a small house and
not much space to keep things, but I think I can squeeze in a few more
lutes and guitars.
For us it's guitars and dogs (3rd puppy scheduled for next October or
so).
Andrew
Moving 18 guitars was fun!
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (713) 647-6018
Andrew Schulman
2008-05-14 00:40:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by Andrew Schulman
For us it's guitars and dogs (3rd puppy scheduled for next October or
so).
Andrew
Moving 18 guitars was fun!
Any strings attached?

Andresito
Carlos Barrientos
2008-05-14 00:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by Andrew Schulman
For us it's guitars and dogs (3rd puppy scheduled for next October or
so).
Andrew
Moving 18 guitars was fun!
Any strings attached?
Andresito
Mooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn....

hahahaha
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (713) 647-6018
JonLorPro
2008-05-13 22:26:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Tue, 13 May 2008 15:21:53 -0400, Robert Crim
Post by Robert Crim
On Tue, 13 May 2008 10:05:09 -0700 (PDT), starbuc2
Post by starbuc2
Seems like everyone has more than one.
Guitars are like potato chips......you have just one.
Robert
Guitars are like potato chips......you can't have just one.
R.
Maybe you were right the first time- any potato chip is a
manifestation of the one true platonic essence of potato chip, of
which there can only be one.
marika
2008-05-13 22:43:47 UTC
Permalink
"JonLorPro" <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:4c172883-aaee-4524-a7ee-***@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...


Maybe you were right the first time- any potato chip is a
manifestation of the one true platonic essence of potato chip, of
which there can only be one.

-------------

as long as they don't turn it into biofuel

mk5000

"You may recall in the April 5, 2007 issue, People’s Weekly World ran an
article by Fidel headlined “Millions face early death from hunger, thirst”
in which the Cuban leader sounded the alarm about the coming food crisis.
Condemning what he called “the sinister idea of converting food into fuel,”
Fidel correctly predicted that capitalism’s relentless quest for fuel would
take food out of the mouths of the
hungry."--http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/13049/1/266/
l***@deack.net
2008-05-13 22:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
Maybe you were right the first time- any potato chip is a
manifestation of the one true platonic essence of potato chip, of
which there can only be one.
The Platonic Quintessence!

http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath096.htm

There is only one.

:-)
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-05-07 10:19:40 UTC
Permalink
You do raise some interesting questions which will get to, but first, in
your characteristic fashion, you grossly and speciously exaggerate for
self-serving purpose.
He's got a big problem with slurs. Probably stupid practice. (Unlike my
'power slurs')
Yes, a couple of the ornaments in the first section did not come out
with clarity. There are different factors as to why that may occur in
any one performance, but basically, I am not a flawless technician.
After screwing up those slurs, you have the unmitigated gall to knock
"power slurs"? The exercises validate the ideas behind them. You are
in no position to badmouth them with your self serving rationalizations.
You have some rethinking to do. daveA
--
email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The very best technical exercises for all guitarists:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
h kiesel
2008-09-05 13:01:16 UTC
Permalink
Not on this topic..but are any CD's by JonLorPro available for purchase and
if so, where?

hk
Post by JonLorPro
I was both reticent to exhibit the temerity of posting this in the
Wang Yameng tremolo discussion, and loath to submit it to the recent
"worst recuerdos" thread. I'll let the group decide in which company
it belongs. The original (non- HiFi) VHS has a lot of hiss on it
which I tried to mollify, but someone with real expertise in this area
could probably do better. Actual hiss removal programs I've tried made
it sound weird; any engineering suggestions would be welcome.
http://youtu.be/O0PCn13xCug
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