Discussion:
On PBS: Sanditon, based on Jane Austen's unfinished last novel
(too old to reply)
Dingbat
2020-02-21 15:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Copy of email exchange, in case these videos might be of interest
to someone.


This series is currently being shown.

https://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/2020/01/20/miss-lambe-and-the-black-experience-in-georgian-england-episode-3-sanditon-review/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanditon_(TV_series)


I respond: Thanks. Once all episodes are out, I'll watch them via
a free trial of PBS Masterpiece.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/offers/signup/?ie=UTF8&benefitID=masterpiece
Dingbat
2020-03-29 20:19:09 UTC
Permalink
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?

He writes:
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-08-23/sanditon-black-heiress-miss-lambe/

Re: On PBS: Sanditon, based on Jane Austen's unfinished last novel
Post by Dingbat
Copy of email exchange, in case these videos might be of interest
to someone.
This series is currently being shown.
https://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/2020/01/20/miss-lambe-and-the-black-experience-in-georgian-england-episode-3-sanditon-review/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanditon_(TV_series)
I respond: Thanks. Once all episodes are out, I'll watch them via
a free trial of PBS Masterpiece.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/offers/signup/?ie=UTF8&benefitID=masterpiece
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-03-29 20:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2020-03-29 20:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
Are you incapable of insulting someone else without also throwing in
an insult about me?

It's how the BBT crew treat Stuart.
Tony Cooper
2020-03-29 21:40:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
Are you incapable of insulting someone else without also throwing in
an insult about me?
It's how the BBT crew treat Stuart.
You got me. I don't know if this a rare instance of humor in a PTD
post or further proof that everything relates to some favorite
television program of yours.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2020-03-30 14:16:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
Are you incapable of insulting someone else without also throwing in
an insult about me?
It's how the BBT crew treat Stuart.
You got me. I don't know if this a rare instance of humor in a PTD
post or further proof that everything relates to some favorite
television program of yours.
Jesus H. Fucking Christ. You think "winding up" is a legitimate pursuit.

But when I "wind you up," by reacting in your fashion to an unwarranted
insult, you are unable to grasp the fact?

And that you think "instances of humor" are "rare" in my posts, you are
even stupider than I had ever imagined.

The question that no one has addressed is whether Austen introduced the
character as "Jamaican," or whether that was an attempt at "relevance"
by the modern filmmakers. Probably some here have actually read the
quasi-book.
Janet
2020-03-30 18:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
The question that no one has addressed is whether Austen introduced the
character as "Jamaican," or whether that was an attempt at "relevance"
by the modern filmmakers. Probably some here have actually read the
quasi-book.
I have.

Austen describes Miss Lambe twice. She's a sickly heiress from the West
Indies who has been brought to England for her health and placed in the
care of Mrs Griffiths.

"Mrs. Griffiths was a very well-behaved, genteel kind of woman, who
supported herself by receiving such great girls and young ladies as
wanted either masters for finishing their education or a home for
beginning their displays. She had several more under her care than the
three who were now come to Sanditon, but the others all happened to be
absent.

Of these three, and indeed of all, Miss Lambe was beyond comparison the
most important and precious, as she paid in proportion to her fortune.
She was about seventeen, half mulatto, chilly and tender, had a maid of
her own, was to have the best room in the lodgings, and was always of
the first consequence in every plan of Mrs. Griffiths."

"Mrs. Griffiths' chief solicitude would be for the accommodation and
comfort of one of the young ladies under her care, a Miss Lambe, a young
West Indian of large fortune in delicate health."


That's as far as Miss Lambe's character and story had developed
before Austen died.


Janet
Peter T. Daniels
2020-03-30 18:59:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
The question that no one has addressed is whether Austen introduced the
character as "Jamaican," or whether that was an attempt at "relevance"
by the modern filmmakers. Probably some here have actually read the
quasi-book.
I have.
Austen describes Miss Lambe twice. She's a sickly heiress from the West
Indies who has been brought to England for her health and placed in the
care of Mrs Griffiths.
"Mrs. Griffiths was a very well-behaved, genteel kind of woman, who
supported herself by receiving such great girls and young ladies as
wanted either masters for finishing their education or a home for
beginning their displays. She had several more under her care than the
three who were now come to Sanditon, but the others all happened to be
absent.
Of these three, and indeed of all, Miss Lambe was beyond comparison the
most important and precious, as she paid in proportion to her fortune.
She was about seventeen, half mulatto, chilly and tender, had a maid of
her own, was to have the best room in the lodgings, and was always of
the first consequence in every plan of Mrs. Griffiths."
"Mrs. Griffiths' chief solicitude would be for the accommodation and
comfort of one of the young ladies under her care, a Miss Lambe, a young
West Indian of large fortune in delicate health."
That's as far as Miss Lambe's character and story had developed
before Austen died.
Above, the two descriptions "Antiguan" and "quadroon" (lit. "half
mulatto") were mentioned by two different people. I can see a 21st-
century writer thinking no one has heard of Antigua (maybe there
are far fewer Antiguans than Jamaicans in England), but "half mulatto"
certainly makes incomprehensible the casting of a very dark skinned
actor in the role, as was also mentioned above; so any relevance to
American racism is eisegesis, grafted on by the modern producers.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-03-30 20:40:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Janet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
The question that no one has addressed is whether Austen introduced the
character as "Jamaican," or whether that was an attempt at "relevance"
by the modern filmmakers. Probably some here have actually read the
quasi-book.
I have.
Austen describes Miss Lambe twice. She's a sickly heiress from the West
Indies who has been brought to England for her health and placed in the
care of Mrs Griffiths.
"Mrs. Griffiths was a very well-behaved, genteel kind of woman, who
supported herself by receiving such great girls and young ladies as
wanted either masters for finishing their education or a home for
beginning their displays. She had several more under her care than the
three who were now come to Sanditon, but the others all happened to be
absent.
Of these three, and indeed of all, Miss Lambe was beyond comparison the
most important and precious, as she paid in proportion to her fortune.
She was about seventeen, half mulatto, chilly and tender, had a maid of
her own, was to have the best room in the lodgings, and was always of
the first consequence in every plan of Mrs. Griffiths."
"Mrs. Griffiths' chief solicitude would be for the accommodation and
comfort of one of the young ladies under her care, a Miss Lambe, a young
West Indian of large fortune in delicate health."
That's as far as Miss Lambe's character and story had developed
before Austen died.
Above, the two descriptions "Antiguan" and "quadroon" (lit. "half
mulatto") were mentioned by two different people. I can see a 21st-
century writer thinking no one has heard of Antigua
stamp collectors have
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(maybe there
are far fewer Antiguans than Jamaicans in England)
there are far fewer Antiguans than Jamaicans tout court
Post by Peter T. Daniels
, but "half mulatto"
certainly makes incomprehensible the casting of a very dark skinned
actor in the role, as was also mentioned above; so any relevance to
American racism is eisegesis, grafted on by the modern producers.
Jane Austen opposed slavery and supported its abolition, and leading
abolitionists in Britain. Her previous books contain anti-slavery
references. Titles like "Pride and Prejudice" and "Mansfield Park" are
anti-slavery references that would be picked up by readers in her own
time. Her brother, a naval officer, was a;so an abolitionist.
The house in Mansfield Park, was owned and built by a sugar baron who
made his fortune from Britains involvement in the slave triangle). His
plantations are in Antigua. IRL, lord Mansfield was a famous judge who
opposed slavery . The term "Pride and Prejudice" was an anti-slavery
meme in JA#s time.
More about her personal connections
https://consideringausten.wordpress.com/austen-and-antigua-slavery-in-
her-time/
Thanks, interesting.
--
athel
musika
2020-03-30 23:05:46 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 30 Mar 2020 22:40:23 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In article
-snip -
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Above, the two descriptions "Antiguan" and "quadroon" (lit. "half
mulatto") were mentioned by two different people. I can see a
21st-
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
century writer thinking no one has heard of Antigua
stamp collectors have
People who follow cricket have, as well - some big names in the Windies
teams cane from there. (Curtly Ambrose, Viv Richards, Richie Richardson
come to mind.)
And it's a popular holiday destination.
--
Ray
UK
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-03-31 12:00:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by musika
On Mon, 30 Mar 2020 22:40:23 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In article
-snip -
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Above, the two descriptions "Antiguan" and "quadroon" (lit. "half
mulatto") were mentioned by two different people. I can see a
21st-
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
century writer thinking no one has heard of Antigua
stamp collectors have
People who follow cricket have, as well - some big names in the Windies
teams cane from there. (Curtly Ambrose, Viv Richards, Richie Richardson
come to mind.)
And it's a popular holiday destination.
Also a popular place for people with money to have homes.
According to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigua#Notable_residents

Giorgio Armani, Italian fashion designer; owns a home near Deep
Bay[44]
Calvin Ayre, billionaire founder of internet gambling company Bodog
Entertainment Group[45]
Silvio Berlusconi, former Italian Prime Minister[46]
Richard Branson, Virgin Atlantic mogul[47]
Mehul Choksi, alleged scamster, diamond merchant and owner of
Gitanjali Jewelers
Eric Clapton, established an Antiguan drug treatment centre; has a
home on the south of the island[48]
Melvin Claxton, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist[49]
Timothy Dalton, actor of James Bond fame[50]
Ken Follett, the author of Eye of the Needle, owns a house on Jumby
Bay[50]
SD Jones, professional wrestler known as "Special Delivery Jones" in
the WWE in the 1970s and 1980s[citation needed]
Archibald MacLeish, poet and (U.S.) Librarian of Congress.[citation
needed]
Rachel Lambert Mellon, horticulturist and philanthropist, has owned
a compound in Antigua's Half Moon Bay since the 1950s.[citation
needed]
Fred Olsen (1891–1986), inventor of the ball propellant
manufacturing process[53]
Andriy Mykolayovych Shevchenko, Former Ukrainian footballer and
politician.[citation needed]
Peter Stringfellow, British nightclub owner[citation needed]
Thomas J. Watson Jr., CEO of IBM[citation needed]
Oprah Winfrey, talk-show host[57]
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2020-03-31 15:20:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Above, the two descriptions "Antiguan" and "quadroon" (lit. "half
mulatto") were mentioned by two different people. I can see a 21st-
century writer thinking no one has heard of Antigua
stamp collectors have
There are far fewer stamp collectors than there used to be. Every month,
*American Philatelist* carries suggestions for attracting young persons
to the hobby, and there's currently a drive to get 2,020 new members of
the American Philatelic Society in 2020. Ergo, they are not a population
high in the consciousness of scriptwriters.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(maybe there
are far fewer Antiguans than Jamaicans in England)
there are far fewer Antiguans than Jamaicans tout court
Gee, ya think?
Dingbat
2020-04-02 10:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Janet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
The question that no one has addressed is whether Austen introduced the
character as "Jamaican," or whether that was an attempt at "relevance"
by the modern filmmakers. Probably some here have actually read the
quasi-book.
I have.
Austen describes Miss Lambe twice. She's a sickly heiress from the West
Indies who has been brought to England for her health and placed in the
care of Mrs Griffiths.
"Mrs. Griffiths was a very well-behaved, genteel kind of woman, who
supported herself by receiving such great girls and young ladies as
wanted either masters for finishing their education or a home for
beginning their displays. She had several more under her care than the
three who were now come to Sanditon, but the others all happened to be
absent.
Of these three, and indeed of all, Miss Lambe was beyond comparison the
most important and precious, as she paid in proportion to her fortune.
She was about seventeen, half mulatto, chilly and tender, had a maid of
her own, was to have the best room in the lodgings, and was always of
the first consequence in every plan of Mrs. Griffiths."
"Mrs. Griffiths' chief solicitude would be for the accommodation and
comfort of one of the young ladies under her care, a Miss Lambe, a young
West Indian of large fortune in delicate health."
That's as far as Miss Lambe's character and story had developed
before Austen died.
Above, the two descriptions "Antiguan" and "quadroon" (lit. "half
mulatto") were mentioned by two different people. I can see a 21st-
century writer thinking no one has heard of Antigua (maybe there
are far fewer Antiguans than Jamaicans in England), but
"half mulatto" certainly makes incomprehensible the casting of
a very dark skinned actor in the role,
The same reviewer points out that Sanditon isn't the only production
which casts a black actor in discord with the book:

'Howards End': How a 1910 Novel Became a Progressive Miniseries  
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/howards-end-how-a-1910-novel-became-a-progressive-miniseries-1102801 
I have had the opportunity to view some of this British series, in this
adaptation several characters are portrayed by black actors unlike in
the original novel.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
as was also mentioned above; so any relevance to
American racism is eisegesis, grafted on by the modern producers.
Tony Cooper
2020-03-30 19:57:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
The question that no one has addressed is whether Austen introduced the
character as "Jamaican," or whether that was an attempt at "relevance"
by the modern filmmakers. Probably some here have actually read the
quasi-book.
I have.
Austen describes Miss Lambe twice. She's a sickly heiress from the West
Indies who has been brought to England for her health and placed in the
care of Mrs Griffiths.
In the Masterpiece production she was not at all sickly, but she was
an heiress. She was the ward of one of the Parker brothers who had
lived in Antigua (not Jamaica) and knew her father. There were two
ladies assigned to her as chaperones (watchers) because of her age.
Post by Janet
Of these three, and indeed of all, Miss Lambe was beyond comparison the
most important and precious, as she paid in proportion to her fortune.
She was about seventeen,
I think she was 19 in the Masterpiece production.
Post by Janet
half mulatto, chilly and tender, had a maid of
her own, was to have the best room in the lodgings, and was always of
the first consequence in every plan of Mrs. Griffiths."
I don't remember her racial mix being mentioned in the Masterpiece
production. She was visibly black because the actress who portrayed
her is visibly black.
Post by Janet
"Mrs. Griffiths' chief solicitude would be for the accommodation and
comfort of one of the young ladies under her care, a Miss Lambe, a young
West Indian of large fortune in delicate health."
The large fortune was stated several times as being 100,000 pounds.
Post by Janet
That's as far as Miss Lambe's character and story had developed
before Austen died.
The Masterpiece production was an adaptation penned by Andrew Davies,
and there were many characters and sub-plots. In an adaptation, I
don't think there's a need to follow all of the original author's
characterizations.

It was an 8-part series so some adjustments to the author's writing
had to be set to make each of the 8 episodes a neat little arc.

And, Austen never finished the book so Davies had to improvise some of
the plot lines.

Because I have *not* read the book, it was easier for me to watch it
than it might be for you. I was not distracted by Miss Lambe being
healthy because I didn't know she was supposed to be sickly. Any
other major differences would also be unknown to me.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Horace LaBadie
2020-03-30 22:09:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
The Masterpiece production was an adaptation penned by Andrew Davies,
and there were many characters and sub-plots. In an adaptation, I
don't think there's a need to follow all of the original author's
characterizations.
It was an 8-part series so some adjustments to the author's writing
had to be set to make each of the 8 episodes a neat little arc.
And, Austen never finished the book so Davies had to improvise some of
the plot lines.
A vast understatement.

Austen's manuscript was barely 24,000 words in length, and hardly more
than a fleshed-out outline of a story. There are only 12 chapters.
Janet
2020-03-31 12:01:16 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@invalid.com says...
Post by Tony Cooper
Because I have *not* read the book, it was easier for me to watch it
than it might be for you. I was not distracted by Miss Lambe being
healthy because I didn't know she was supposed to be sickly. Any
other major differences would also be unknown to me.
I have seen the TV production.

One of the joys of Austen's books is her subtlety; not a single word
is wasted,or accidental. Very often, even the names of characters, and
titles of the books, are a sly pointer to current social topics or
public figures recognisable to her more astute readers (in her own
day).

One of her recurring themes is about inheritance, and its effect on
womens' marriageability and social status. Lady Denham, top of the
social ladder in Sanditon, married money and wants her inheritors to do
the same. At that time in England, everything a woman owned became
the permanent property of her husband on marriage.Miss Lambe is not only
hugely wealthy but also sickly.

Her potential short lifespan, not even likely to produce a mixed race
heir, can be seen as making her fortune even more attractive to a
grasping suitor.

Her very name,Lambe, carries the association with "sacrificial", and
" a lamb as white as snow" from an English nursery rhyme. The latter is
a hint that her skin tone is pale, reinforced by "half-mulatto". No
doubt Jane was purposely setting up a whole future story line about
social views of Miss Lambe in regard to mixed race, mixed marriage and
future parentage, etc. Will a lighter skin tone, vast fortune and
sickliness combine to sweep aside any prejudice? Or is the vulnerable
girl a sacrificial lamb being led to the slaughter in English society?
We'll never know. IMO the Makers of Sanditon missed Austen's intention,
racially miscast the actor and it was unfrgiveable to make her
character fit and robust.

Particularly as fitness, sickliness and hypochondria, were among the
major themes already laid down in the fisrt chapters, by the sickly
Austen, already dying of an undiagnosed illness.

I imagine Austen was describing someone who might pass as white in
Austens England; a Meghan Markle skin shade. It would have been
interesting to see if Lambe's suitor or any future offspring were fore-
runners for the same stigma and speculation aimed at Harry, Meghan and
Arthur.

Janet
Peter T. Daniels
2020-03-31 15:28:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
@invalid.com says...
Post by Tony Cooper
Because I have *not* read the book, it was easier for me to watch it
than it might be for you. I was not distracted by Miss Lambe being
healthy because I didn't know she was supposed to be sickly. Any
other major differences would also be unknown to me.
I have seen the TV production.
One of the joys of Austen's books is her subtlety; not a single word
is wasted,or accidental. Very often, even the names of characters, and
titles of the books, are a sly pointer to current social topics or
public figures recognisable to her more astute readers (in her own
day).
One of her recurring themes is about inheritance, and its effect on
womens' marriageability and social status. Lady Denham, top of the
social ladder in Sanditon, married money and wants her inheritors to do
the same. At that time in England, everything a woman owned became
the permanent property of her husband on marriage.Miss Lambe is not only
hugely wealthy but also sickly.
Her potential short lifespan, not even likely to produce a mixed race
heir, can be seen as making her fortune even more attractive to a
grasping suitor.
Her very name,Lambe, carries the association with "sacrificial", and
" a lamb as white as snow" from an English nursery rhyme. The latter is
a hint that her skin tone is pale, reinforced by "half-mulatto". No
doubt Jane was purposely setting up a whole future story line about
social views of Miss Lambe in regard to mixed race, mixed marriage and
future parentage, etc. Will a lighter skin tone, vast fortune and
sickliness combine to sweep aside any prejudice? Or is the vulnerable
girl a sacrificial lamb being led to the slaughter in English society?
We'll never know. IMO the Makers of Sanditon missed Austen's intention,
racially miscast the actor and it was unfrgiveable to make her
character fit and robust.
Particularly as fitness, sickliness and hypochondria, were among the
major themes already laid down in the fisrt chapters, by the sickly
Austen, already dying of an undiagnosed illness.
I imagine Austen was describing someone who might pass as white in
Austens England; a Meghan Markle skin shade. It would have been
interesting to see if Lambe's suitor or any future offspring were fore-
runners for the same stigma and speculation aimed at Harry, Meghan and
Arthur.
Have any of the published completions proceeded along those lines? (Seems
like there's much less to work with than for *Edwin Drood*, so much greater
scope for imagination.) Care to try your hand at it?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-03-30 06:48:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
Are you incapable of insulting someone else without also throwing in
an insult about me?
I don't see any insult. What's insulting about making a reference to a
characteristic of your posts that anyone will immediately recognize as
factual? If you're not clear about what an insult is you may like to
look at the current thread about insults.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's how the BBT crew treat Stuart.
As good an example as any. You're assuming that I know what BBT is (I
don't) and who Stuart is (I don't). That's the sort of thing I was
suggesting that Dingbat not emulate.
--
athel
Katy Jennison
2020-03-30 10:36:34 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's how the BBT crew treat Stuart.
As good an example as any. You're assuming that I know what BBT is (I
don't) and who Stuart is (I don't). That's the sort of thing I was
suggesting that Dingbat not emulate.
It's more usually abbreviated TBBT.

The Big Bang Theory. "A comedy series on American TV, m'Lud." "Ah,
thank you, Counsel. I believe that is what is called 'a sitcom' in
popular parlance."
--
Katy Jennison
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-03-30 11:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's how the BBT crew treat Stuart.
As good an example as any. You're assuming that I know what BBT is (I
don't) and who Stuart is (I don't). That's the sort of thing I was
suggesting that Dingbat not emulate.
It's more usually abbreviated TBBT.
The Big Bang Theory. "A comedy series on American TV, m'Lud." "Ah,
thank you, Counsel. I believe that is what is called 'a sitcom' in
popular parlance."
Golly. Even more lowbrow than I would have guessed.
--
athel
Katy Jennison
2020-03-30 12:49:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's how the BBT crew treat Stuart.
As good an example as any. You're assuming that I know what BBT is (I
don't) and who Stuart is (I don't). That's the sort of thing I was
suggesting that Dingbat not emulate.
It's more usually abbreviated TBBT.
The Big Bang Theory.  "A comedy series on American TV, m'Lud."  "Ah,
thank you, Counsel.  I believe that is what is called 'a sitcom' in
popular parlance."
Golly. Even more lowbrow than I would have guessed.
To be absolutely fair, it's actually rather good in parts.
--
Katy Jennison
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-03-31 12:12:06 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:21:17 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
On Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:49:03 GMT, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's how the BBT crew treat Stuart.
As good an example as any. You're assuming that I know what BBT is
(I
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
don't) and who Stuart is (I don't). That's the sort of thing I was
suggesting that Dingbat not emulate.
It's more usually abbreviated TBBT.
The Big Bang Theory.  "A comedy series on American TV, m'Lud." 
"Ah,
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
thank you, Counsel.  I believe that is what is called 'a sitcom' in
popular parlance."
Golly. Even more lowbrow than I would have guessed.
To be absolutely fair, it's actually rather good in parts.
And can be seen for the 9th time on E4
https://www.tvguide.co.uk/search.asp?title=The+Big+Bang+Theory&submit.x=
25&submit.y=13
[Note to viewers in other countries: this applies to the UK only]
Viewers in the Republic of Ireland can receive E4 on (UK) Freesat. A
minority of them can receive it via Freeview [1] transmitters in
Northern Ireland.

[1] Digital Terrestrial TV.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
CDB
2020-03-30 15:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's how the BBT crew treat Stuart.
As good an example as any. You're assuming that I know what BBT is
(I don't) and who Stuart is (I don't). That's the sort of thing I
was suggesting that Dingbat not emulate.
It's more usually abbreviated TBBT.
The Big Bang Theory. "A comedy series on American TV, m'Lud." "Ah,
thank you, Counsel. I believe that is what is called 'a sitcom' in
popular parlance."
Last time I watched it (years ago, before it became a "gang" series and
started recycling jokes), Stuart owned a comic-book store. A hanger-on.

He will never win a physics prize and is treated accordingly.
Peter T. Daniels
2020-03-30 14:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
Are you incapable of insulting someone else without also throwing in
an insult about me?
I don't see any insult. What's insulting about making a reference to a
characteristic of your posts that anyone will immediately recognize as
factual? If you're not clear about what an insult is you may like to
look at the current thread about insults.
Asserting a lie, "assuming we've all seen the same television programmes."
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's how the BBT crew treat Stuart.
As good an example as any. You're assuming that I know what BBT is (I
don't) and who Stuart is (I don't). That's the sort of thing I was
suggesting that Dingbat not emulate.
I WAS RESPONDING TO THE INSULT WITH AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT IT IMAGINED --
INVENTED -- THAT I DO.

It was established years ago that many, if not all, of the readers here
are familiar with the series referenced there.

Why have you never called out the resident Anglomaniac who prattles
on about characters and situations in all his favorite costume dramas
from the BBC etc. as if everyone is familiar with _those_ things?
Dingbat
2020-03-29 21:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
Sanditon on PBS, based on Jane Austen's unfinished last novel
has a black (Jamaican) character who this reviewer says encounters
little racism from the British, or less racism than she would
encounter in America.

I was asking whether Jane Austen introduced this character in order
to advise white America to be less racist.
Tony Cooper
2020-03-29 21:58:01 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 14:18:11 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
Sanditon on PBS, based on Jane Austen's unfinished last novel
has a black (Jamaican) character who this reviewer says encounters
little racism from the British, or less racism than she would
encounter in America.
The character was only briefly around anyone British who was not part
of the Sanditon group, and they treat her as they would anyone else
who is extremely wealthy.

To make the comparison you are making, she would have to be the
houseguest of a very wealthy American family, be a ward of a member of
the family, and have limited exposure to those outside of that
household.

Lambe was from Antigua, not Jamaica.
Post by Dingbat
I was asking whether Jane Austen introduced this character in order
to advise white America to be less racist.
The book was never finished, so we don't know what Austen intended to
develop. Racism was not part of the Masterpiece production.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-03-29 22:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
Sanditon on PBS, based on Jane Austen's unfinished last novel
has a black (Jamaican) character who this reviewer says encounters
little racism from the British, or less racism than she would
encounter in America.
I was asking whether Jane Austen introduced this character in order
to advise white America to be less racist.
And how come you didn't say all that in your first message?

You still haven't revealed who "He" is.

Do you seriously imagine Jane Austen was involved in the making of a
television programme?
--
athel
Dingbat
2020-03-29 23:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
Sanditon on PBS, based on Jane Austen's unfinished last novel
has a black (Jamaican) character who this reviewer says encounters
little racism from the British, or less racism than she would
encounter in America.
I was asking whether Jane Austen introduced this character in order
to advise white America to be less racist.
And how come you didn't say all that in your first message?
I haven't introduced any new content; I've just reworded it a little.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You still haven't revealed who "He" is.
My interlocutor who watched Sanditon and commented on it.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Do you seriously imagine Jane Austen was involved in the making of a
television programme?
As I understand, the plot is an elaboration of her work.
Horace LaBadie
2020-03-30 00:10:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
Sanditon on PBS, based on Jane Austen's unfinished last novel
has a black (Jamaican) character who this reviewer says encounters
little racism from the British, or less racism than she would
encounter in America.
I was asking whether Jane Austen introduced this character in order
to advise white America to be less racist.
And how come you didn't say all that in your first message?
I haven't introduced any new content; I've just reworded it a little.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You still haven't revealed who "He" is.
My interlocutor who watched Sanditon and commented on it.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Do you seriously imagine Jane Austen was involved in the making of a
television programme?
As I understand, the plot is an elaboration of her work.
The surviving manuscript as left by Austen is online. Miss Lambe is not
even given a first name, and the few times that she is mentioned, her
enormous wealth and delicate health are her outstanding character traits.

I am not sure what the size of Austen's American readership might have
been at the time of her death, but I don't imagine that it was anything
like DIckens would later enjoy. America was rather small and sparsely
populated at the time of her death, and the recent unpleasantness of the
burning of the White House by the British was still fresh on our minds.

Why anyone would imagine that Austen had an American reader in mind is
truly baffling.

Sanditon.
<http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks/fr008641.html>
Lewis
2020-03-30 13:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Why anyone would imagine that Austen had an American reader in mind is
truly baffling.
I am sure she had American readers. Emma was published in the US
while Austen was still alive, and people did travel to England and
Scotland, and from England and Scotland all through the late 18th
century; I'm certain some of them brought back copies of Austen. But
yes, I agree that there is very little chance that she was considering
American readers in anyway in what she wrote.
Post by Horace LaBadie
Sanditon.
<http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks/fr008641.html>
I should probably read that sometime.
--
There's nothing to do, so you just stay in bed [ah, poor thing] Why
live in the world when you can live in your head?
Tony Cooper
2020-03-29 21:29:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 22:29:33 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
I can't figure out where Dingbat's coming from. There is a character
- Georgina Lambe - in "Sanditon" who is a young and very rich West
Indian heiress. She is the ward of Sidney Parker who spent time in
the West Indies and knew Miss Lambe's father.

I watched the entire series, and don't remember any scenes in which
there was any racist aspect at all. She was accepted because she was
an heiress. There was conflict, but it had to do with her wanting
more freedom that Sidney Parker thought proper for a person of her
age. She had a (black) boyfriend she wanted to be with, but he was
not an acceptable sort because of his lack of appropriate wealth.
Also, Sidney Parker thought her too young to have a boyfriend.

In the few scenes in which Miss Lambe was around the common folk - not
the wealthy group at Sanditon - I don't recall any race-related
incidents that hinted at racism or racial tolerance.

Why Dingbat feels there some comparison between British and American
racism is beyond me. There are no American characters in the program
that I remember.

"Sanditon" was based on an unfinished novel, so Jane Austen *may* have
intended to add some racist aspect, but it isn't in the Masterpiece
production.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Dingbat
2020-03-29 23:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 22:29:33 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
I can't figure out where Dingbat's coming from. There is a character
- Georgina Lambe - in "Sanditon" who is a young and very rich West
Indian heiress. She is the ward of Sidney Parker who spent time in
the West Indies and knew Miss Lambe's father.
I watched the entire series, and don't remember any scenes in which
there was any racist aspect at all. She was accepted because she was
an heiress. There was conflict, but it had to do with her wanting
more freedom that Sidney Parker thought proper for a person of her
age. She had a (black) boyfriend she wanted to be with, but he was
not an acceptable sort because of his lack of appropriate wealth.
Also, Sidney Parker thought her too young to have a boyfriend.
In the few scenes in which Miss Lambe was around the common folk - not
the wealthy group at Sanditon - I don't recall any race-related
incidents that hinted at racism or racial tolerance.
Why Dingbat feels there some comparison between British and American
racism is beyond me. There are no American characters in the program
that I remember.
The reviewer who's American, opines that this lack of racism was peculiar
to a British setting. Is it likely that Jane Austen had this opinion too
and wanted her American readership to marvel at it? That was my question.
Post by Tony Cooper
"Sanditon" was based on an unfinished novel, so Jane Austen *may* have
intended to add some racist aspect, but it isn't in the Masterpiece
production.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Tony Cooper
2020-03-29 23:58:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 16:28:04 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
Post by Dingbat
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 22:29:33 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
I can't figure out where Dingbat's coming from. There is a character
- Georgina Lambe - in "Sanditon" who is a young and very rich West
Indian heiress. She is the ward of Sidney Parker who spent time in
the West Indies and knew Miss Lambe's father.
I watched the entire series, and don't remember any scenes in which
there was any racist aspect at all. She was accepted because she was
an heiress. There was conflict, but it had to do with her wanting
more freedom that Sidney Parker thought proper for a person of her
age. She had a (black) boyfriend she wanted to be with, but he was
not an acceptable sort because of his lack of appropriate wealth.
Also, Sidney Parker thought her too young to have a boyfriend.
In the few scenes in which Miss Lambe was around the common folk - not
the wealthy group at Sanditon - I don't recall any race-related
incidents that hinted at racism or racial tolerance.
Why Dingbat feels there some comparison between British and American
racism is beyond me. There are no American characters in the program
that I remember.
The reviewer who's American, opines that this lack of racism was peculiar
to a British setting. Is it likely that Jane Austen had this opinion too
and wanted her American readership to marvel at it? That was my question.
He has his opinion, I have mine. Mine is that no comparison was
intended or made.
Post by Dingbat
Post by Tony Cooper
"Sanditon" was based on an unfinished novel, so Jane Austen *may* have
intended to add some racist aspect, but it isn't in the Masterpiece
production.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Cheryl
2020-03-30 09:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 22:29:33 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
I can't figure out where Dingbat's coming from. There is a character
- Georgina Lambe - in "Sanditon" who is a young and very rich West
Indian heiress. She is the ward of Sidney Parker who spent time in
the West Indies and knew Miss Lambe's father.
I watched the entire series, and don't remember any scenes in which
there was any racist aspect at all. She was accepted because she was
an heiress. There was conflict, but it had to do with her wanting
more freedom that Sidney Parker thought proper for a person of her
age. She had a (black) boyfriend she wanted to be with, but he was
not an acceptable sort because of his lack of appropriate wealth.
Also, Sidney Parker thought her too young to have a boyfriend.
In the few scenes in which Miss Lambe was around the common folk - not
the wealthy group at Sanditon - I don't recall any race-related
incidents that hinted at racism or racial tolerance.
Why Dingbat feels there some comparison between British and American
racism is beyond me. There are no American characters in the program
that I remember.
The reviewer who's American, opines that this lack of racism was peculiar
to a British setting. Is it likely that Jane Austen had this opinion too
and wanted her American readership to marvel at it? That was my question.
I doubt it very much. As others have mentioned, Jane Austen did not
complete the work and probably had a relatively small American
readership at the time her other work was published. I would expect any
racial issues in the TV show to be more reflective of what the makers of
the TV show wanted to portray, and means nothing at all about Jane
Austen or her times. In addition, the portrayal of historic time periods
on TV shows is often (I'm tempted to say "always") inaccurate.
--
Cheryl
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-03-30 10:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by Dingbat
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 22:29:33 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British
society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
Maybe not as obscurantist (much more than just obscure) than Stefan's
post, but still close to being unintelligible. Who is "He"? What on
earth is it all about? Are you making the same error as PTD and
assuming we've all seen the same television programmes as you?
I can't figure out where Dingbat's coming from. There is a character
- Georgina Lambe - in "Sanditon" who is a young and very rich West
Indian heiress. She is the ward of Sidney Parker who spent time in
the West Indies and knew Miss Lambe's father.
I watched the entire series, and don't remember any scenes in which
there was any racist aspect at all. She was accepted because she was
an heiress. There was conflict, but it had to do with her wanting
more freedom that Sidney Parker thought proper for a person of her
age. She had a (black) boyfriend she wanted to be with, but he was
not an acceptable sort because of his lack of appropriate wealth.
Also, Sidney Parker thought her too young to have a boyfriend.
In the few scenes in which Miss Lambe was around the common folk - not
the wealthy group at Sanditon - I don't recall any race-related
incidents that hinted at racism or racial tolerance.
Why Dingbat feels there some comparison between British and American
racism is beyond me. There are no American characters in the program
that I remember.
The reviewer who's American, opines that this lack of racism was peculiar
to a British setting. Is it likely that Jane Austen had this opinion too
and wanted her American readership to marvel at it? That was my question.
I doubt it very much. As others have mentioned, Jane Austen did not
complete the work and probably had a relatively small American
readership at the time her other work was published. I would expect any
racial issues in the TV show to be more reflective of what the makers
of the TV show wanted to portray, and means nothing at all about Jane
Austen or her times. In addition, the portrayal of historic time
periods on TV shows is often (I'm tempted to say "always") inaccurate.
Jane Austen described Miss Lambe as "half mulatto", in other words
quadroon, so one shouldn't think of her as being very black.
--
athel
Sam Plusnet
2020-03-30 19:48:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
I doubt it very much. As others have mentioned, Jane Austen did not
complete the work and probably had a relatively small American
readership at the time her other work was published. I would expect any
racial issues in the TV show to be more reflective of what the makers of
the TV show wanted to portray, and means nothing at all about Jane
Austen or her times. In addition, the portrayal of historic time periods
on TV shows is often (I'm tempted to say "always") inaccurate.
Would Austin have received any payment from American sales of her works?
If sales there were of pirated editions, that might make her either less
able or less inclined to consider the views of her transpondian readership.
--
Sam Plusnet
Horace LaBadie
2020-03-30 22:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Cheryl
I doubt it very much. As others have mentioned, Jane Austen did not
complete the work and probably had a relatively small American
readership at the time her other work was published. I would expect any
racial issues in the TV show to be more reflective of what the makers of
the TV show wanted to portray, and means nothing at all about Jane
Austen or her times. In addition, the portrayal of historic time periods
on TV shows is often (I'm tempted to say "always") inaccurate.
Would Austin have received any payment from American sales of her works?
If sales there were of pirated editions, that might make her either less
able or less inclined to consider the views of her transpondian readership.
There was no international copyright law. Pirating works was a two-way
street, exploited by both British and American publishers. Mark Twain
complained about copyright laws all the time, even those in the United
States, which he thought should be perpetual.
Sam Plusnet
2020-03-30 23:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Cheryl
I doubt it very much. As others have mentioned, Jane Austen did not
complete the work and probably had a relatively small American
readership at the time her other work was published. I would expect any
racial issues in the TV show to be more reflective of what the makers of
the TV show wanted to portray, and means nothing at all about Jane
Austen or her times. In addition, the portrayal of historic time periods
on TV shows is often (I'm tempted to say "always") inaccurate.
Would Austin have received any payment from American sales of her works?
If sales there were of pirated editions, that might make her either less
able or less inclined to consider the views of her transpondian readership.
There was no international copyright law. Pirating works was a two-way
street, exploited by both British and American publishers. Mark Twain
complained about copyright laws all the time, even those in the United
States, which he thought should be perpetual.
If they were pirated editions, she would most probably know nothing
about them - and hence those readers.
--
Sam Plusnet
J. J. Lodder
2020-03-31 10:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Cheryl
I doubt it very much. As others have mentioned, Jane Austen did not
complete the work and probably had a relatively small American
readership at the time her other work was published. I would expect any
racial issues in the TV show to be more reflective of what the makers of
the TV show wanted to portray, and means nothing at all about Jane
Austen or her times. In addition, the portrayal of historic time periods
on TV shows is often (I'm tempted to say "always") inaccurate.
Would Austin have received any payment from American sales of her works?
If sales there were of pirated editions, that might make her either less
able or less inclined to consider the views of her transpondian readership.
There was no international copyright law. Pirating works was a two-way
street, exploited by both British and American publishers. Mark Twain
complained about copyright laws all the time, even those in the United
States, which he thought should be perpetual.
If they were pirated editions, she would most probably know nothing
about them - and hence those readers.
She may have received some fan mail,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2020-03-31 15:23:46 UTC
Permalink
[Jane Austen published in America]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
If they were pirated editions, she would most probably know nothing
about them - and hence those readers.
She may have received some fan mail,
Was it done to send "fan mail" to novelists in the early 19th century?

Have you looked into the price of trans-Atlantic postage in those days?
Sam Plusnet
2020-03-31 19:55:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Cheryl
I doubt it very much. As others have mentioned, Jane Austen did not
complete the work and probably had a relatively small American
readership at the time her other work was published. I would expect any
racial issues in the TV show to be more reflective of what the makers of
the TV show wanted to portray, and means nothing at all about Jane
Austen or her times. In addition, the portrayal of historic time periods
on TV shows is often (I'm tempted to say "always") inaccurate.
Would Austin have received any payment from American sales of her works?
If sales there were of pirated editions, that might make her either less
able or less inclined to consider the views of her transpondian readership.
There was no international copyright law. Pirating works was a two-way
street, exploited by both British and American publishers. Mark Twain
complained about copyright laws all the time, even those in the United
States, which he thought should be perpetual.
If they were pirated editions, she would most probably know nothing
about them - and hence those readers.
She may have received some fan mail,
I believe her works were published anonymously during her lifetime.

If someone read a pirated edition in the US, their only point of contact
would have been the publisher - who would not have any reason to forward
them to the UK publisher.
--
Sam Plusnet
Jerry Friedman
2020-04-01 21:15:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Cheryl
I doubt it very much. As others have mentioned, Jane Austen did not
complete the work and probably had a relatively small American
readership at the time her other work was published. I would expect any
racial issues in the TV show to be more reflective of what the makers of
the TV show wanted to portray, and means nothing at all about Jane
Austen or her times. In addition, the portrayal of historic time periods
on TV shows is often (I'm tempted to say "always") inaccurate.
Would Austin have received any payment from American sales of her works?
If sales there were of pirated editions, that might make her either less
able or less inclined to consider the views of her transpondian readership.
There was no international copyright law. Pirating works was a two-way
street, exploited by both British and American publishers. Mark Twain
complained about copyright laws all the time, even those in the United
States, which he thought should be perpetual.
If they were pirated editions, she would most probably know nothing
about them - and hence those readers.
She may have received some fan mail,
I believe her works were published anonymously during her lifetime.
If someone read a pirated edition in the US, their only point of contact
would have been the publisher - who would not have any reason to forward
them to the UK publisher.
It could have been done. There was contact between the two
countries--well, maybe not the right kind of contact from 1812 to 1815,
but there were a couple of years when an American reader, if there were
any, could have gotten the publisher's address from a British friend or
relative, or sent a letter to such a person to be forwarded to Austen's
publisher.

I agree with the main point, which is that there doesn't seem to be any
reason to think Austen had American readers in mind.
--
Jerry Friedman
Eric Walker
2020-03-29 21:02:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 13:19:09 -0700, Dingbat wrote:

[...]
Re: On PBS: Sanditon, based on Jane Austen's unfinished last novel...
I have been told by an ardent Austen fan that the production is a hideous
travesty.

Austen never completed the original novel, and numerous Other Hands have
produced their own completions of her work. This one is said to be
particularly awful. I don't know from personal experience, but have had
it suggested that I Google reviews.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Tony Cooper
2020-03-29 22:23:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 21:02:05 -0000 (UTC), Eric Walker
Post by Eric Walker
[...]
Re: On PBS: Sanditon, based on Jane Austen's unfinished last novel...
I have been told by an ardent Austen fan that the production is a hideous
travesty.
Well, I am not an ardent fan of - or even passingly interested in -
Austen's body of work. Without the bias going in of expecting
something of a production based on an Austen novel, I was able to be
entertained by watching the series. It was hardly the best or the
most memorable Masterpiece production, but it was entertaining. Better
than anything else aired on those Sunday nights in that time slot.
Post by Eric Walker
Austen never completed the original novel, and numerous Other Hands have
produced their own completions of her work. This one is said to be
particularly awful. I don't know from personal experience, but have had
it suggested that I Google reviews.
Usually, the people who deem a production of this sort "particularly
awful" or a "travesty" are people who have not just read the book, but
rate the book as a classic. Any adaptation is not likely to measure
up.

I don't depend on reviews to determine what will be of interest. I
have been disappointed far too many times by a glowing review, and
pleasantly surprised by a movie/TV production that received bad
reviews.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Rich Ulrich
2020-03-30 00:53:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 18:23:45 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 21:02:05 -0000 (UTC), Eric Walker
Post by Eric Walker
[...]
Re: On PBS: Sanditon, based on Jane Austen's unfinished last novel...
I have been told by an ardent Austen fan that the production is a hideous
travesty.
Well, I am not an ardent fan of - or even passingly interested in -
Austen's body of work. Without the bias going in of expecting
something of a production based on an Austen novel, I was able to be
entertained by watching the series. It was hardly the best or the
most memorable Masterpiece production, but it was entertaining. Better
than anything else aired on those Sunday nights in that time slot.
Post by Eric Walker
Austen never completed the original novel, and numerous Other Hands have
produced their own completions of her work. This one is said to be
particularly awful. I don't know from personal experience, but have had
it suggested that I Google reviews.
Usually, the people who deem a production of this sort "particularly
awful" or a "travesty" are people who have not just read the book, but
rate the book as a classic. Any adaptation is not likely to measure
up.
Here's a variation on that theme. "Madonna: Rebel Heart Tour"
is the DVD movie made from that tour (2016). There are 14
viewer reviews at IMDb, 7 of which are "1" (worst). All 7 were
written by avid fans who wanted the theater experience, no
more and no less. Two more rated "2".

The other 5 reviewers gave 8, 9 or 10. The movie is a thoroughly
edited music-video experience, done pretty well. It draws from
multiple concerts while presenting a single song. It includes a
number of "visual effects" not possible on stage.
Post by Tony Cooper
I don't depend on reviews to determine what will be of interest. I
have been disappointed far too many times by a glowing review, and
pleasantly surprised by a movie/TV production that received bad
reviews.
What I can learn from a review is not limited to the reviewer's
recommendation of good/bad. I like some forms of craziness and
surrealism. I like gratuitous sex, I don't like gratuitous violence.

I rate movies 1-5 on Netflix. Their algorithms pre-rate movies
for me, based on viewers with voting profiles like mine. So,
contrasted to what they predict for me, they show the "average
vote" of all their viewers -- which is often about 50% of the average
at IMDb, which scores 1-10. (Most movies rate between 2.5 and
4 at Netflix, between 5 and 8 at IMDb.) The personalized rating
has been as much as a point higher or lower than the audience
average.
--
Rich Ulrich
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-03-30 06:59:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Walker
[...]
Re: On PBS: Sanditon, based on Jane Austen's unfinished last novel...
I have been told by an ardent Austen fan that the production is a hideous
travesty.
Unfortunately the urge to cash in on Jane Austen's popularity is one
that some writers cannot resist. I have read two sequels to Pride and
Prejudice. One, Pemberley, by Emma Tennant, is an obvious pastiche,
harmless enough but readily forgettable. The other, Death Comes to
Pemberley, by P. D. James, is spectacularly awful, and ought to be an
embarassment to an author capable of far better novels.
Post by Eric Walker
Austen never completed the original novel, and numerous Other Hands have
produced their own completions of her work. This one is said to be
particularly awful. I don't know from personal experience, but have had
it suggested that I Google reviews.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2020-03-30 18:38:37 UTC
Permalink
The situation in Britain at that time was very different. There were
very few black people living there.
Many posts ago I mentioned that there were very Jews in Australia.
Somebody chose to interpret that as an anti-semitic comment.
Hark! But soft! A very Jew! (an oy)
d***@aol.com
2020-04-01 20:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The situation in Britain at that time was very different. There were
very few black people living there.
Many posts ago I mentioned that there were very Jews in Australia.
Somebody chose to interpret that as an anti-semitic comment.
Hark! But soft! A very Jew! (an oy)
Rather an Australian Oi! to the Yiddish Oy! eh I still pish my pants when I hear it on AC/DC's TNT! eh
d***@aol.com
2020-04-01 18:25:32 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 13:19:09 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist
in order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
He writes: I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how
different British society was to American at that time. It does
seem to make the British much less racist.
The situation in Britain at that time was very different. There were
very few black people living there.
Many posts ago I mentioned that there were very Jews in Australia.
Somebody chose to interpret that as an anti-semitic comment.
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter, the above statement all depends on proper context. In terms of Australia's population, they comprise far and few. As of 2017 (Jewish Virtual Library), there are approx. 113K Australian-Jews in a population of 25M. Then again, Jews comprise 2% (6M) of the American population (325M). IOW, their small population numbers have never impeded their ability to excel throughout history. Case in point: In terms of Australian history and influence, Australia remains the only other country in the World besides Israel whose founders were Jewish. Melbourne is also home to one of the Top-rated Jewish day schools in the world, Mount Scopus. Onto Isaac Nathan who became Australia's first composer and "the father of Australian music." Barnett Levey was "the father of Australian theatre." Olivia Newton-John's Maternal Grandfather is Nobel Prize-winning scientist Max Born (German-Jew). Outside of NYC and Israel, Australia has one of the largest Orthodox-Jewish populations in the world. Do you remember Yankel Rosenbaum? He became an International symbol for the Hasidic community when he was murdered in NYC by African-Americans during The Crown Heights riots in Brooklyn. He was a University of Melbourne student conducting research in NYC for his Doctorate.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-04-02 18:16:23 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:38:20 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 13:19:09 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
Post by Dingbat
I ask: Was Jane Austen trying to show the British as less racist in
order to suggest that Americans be less racist?
I believe it may be of surprise to many regarding how different British society was to American at that time. It does seem to make the British
much less racist.
The situation in Britain at that time was very different. There were
very few black people living there.
Many black Africans who arrived in Britain did so as sailors who decided
to leave their ship and stay. Sailors being male there were no black
women for them to marry so they married local white women. They were
numbered in a few thousands in a population of millions. The skin colour
and facial features became less distinctive through the subsequent
generations.
After a few generations their descendants would almost all be seen as
White. [1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_African_presence_in_London#Post-war_period
In 1950, it was estimated there were no more than 20,000 non-White
residents in the United Kingdom, mainly in England; almost all born
overseas.
Just after the end of World War II, the first groups of post-war
Caribbean immigrants started to emigrate and settle in London. There
were an estimated 492 that were passengers on the HMT Empire
Windrush that arrived at Tilbury Docks on 22 June 1948. These
passengers settled in the area of Brixton which is now a prominently
Black district in Britain. From the 1950s into the 1960s, there was
a mass migration of workers from all over the English-speaking
Caribbean, particularly Jamaica; who settled in the UK. These
immigrants were invited to fill labour requirements in London’s
hospitals, transportation venues and railway development. There was
a continuous influx of African students, sportsmen, and businessmen
mixed within British society. They are widely viewed as having been
a major contributing factor to the rebuilding of the post-war urban
London economy.
[1] There are few people who show signs of possible black African
ancestry such as the Welsh singer Tom Jones. When he became known in the
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/tom-jones-reveals-he-is-taking-dna-test-to-determine-if-he-has-black-ancestors-after-claims-he-is-a6717546.html
Sir Tom Jones has announced he is going to have a DNA test to see if
he has black ancestry, claiming he is often mistaken for being black
due to the texture of his hair.
Speaking to the Times, Jones said some people thought he was “just
passing as white” when he moved to America, even though he was born
to Welsh and English parents.
“A lot of people still think I’m black. When I first came to
America, people who had heard me sing on the radio would be
surprised that I was white when they saw me. Because of my hair a
lot of black people still tell me I’m just passing as white.”
That statement that he "has announced he is going to have a DNA" was not
correct. It was a misunderstanding. He says in an interview that he had
said he would not be "opposed to" a DNA test.

Further to that there was a major increase in the number of black men in
Britain during World War Two in the form of 130,000 black GIs.

This reviews the book "Forgotten: The Untold Story of D-Day’s Black
Heroes, at Home and at War", by US journalist Linda Hervieux,
publ. 2015.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/12035018/Revealed-How-Britons-welcomed-black-soldiers-during-WWII-and-fought-alongside-them-against-racist-GIs.html

Review headed:

Revealed: How Britons welcomed black soldiers during WWII, and
fought alongside them against racist GIs

Black American GIs billeted in the UK during WWII found warm welcome
from British families, in contrast to vicious racist abuse meted out
by their fellow countrymen

One extract:

The presence of so many black troops on British soil had a lasting
legacy in a country that was soon to see an influx of Afro-Caribbean
migrants, starting with the arrival of the Windrush ship at Tilbury,
in 1948.

While most people have heard of the GI babies the US troops left
behind, few have considered that many of these children were of
mixed-race, the offspring of affairs between local white women and
the black soldiers they encountered.

Many of those “brown babies” only came to know their fathers in
later years, with some of their descendants now embarking on a
search for their American grandfathers.

Miss Hervieux said: “Given the racial tensions that exist in Britain
today, as in other countries, it is hard to believe that the UK was
once a relative racial paradise for African Americans. Britons were
willing to open their hearts and minds to fellow human beings who
were there to help them.

She added: “Their efforts extended beyond mere hospitality. True and
deep friendships developed, some of which endured long after the
war. Although Britons suffered through vicious bombings that ravaged
the country and extreme privation, they never forgot basic human
kindness.”

The treatment the men received at the hands of ordinary British men
and women also had a significant impact on post-war America,
believes Mrs Hervieux.

“In Britain America’s black soldiers were welcomed and treated with
respect and kindness. Once they returned home, there was no going
back,” she said. “Equitable treatment abroad helped fuel the budding
civil rights movement that would rock America in the coming
decades.”

Another extract:

Another member of the 320th [Barrage Balloon Battalion with black
soldiers and white officers] was Wilson Monk , who was billeted in
the basement of the town’s Trinity Methodist church.

Here he met the organist Godfrey Prior, a milkman, who quickly
invited him to join the congregation.
<photo of Wilson Monk>
Mr Prior’s wife Jessie took it on herself to provide Monk with the
occasional home cooked meal and – with her 18-year-old boy Keith
away on active service - came to look on him as a surrogate son.

In February 1944 she wrote a touching letter from her home in the
village of Abersychan to Monk’s mother Rosita, in Atlantic City, New
Jersey, to reassure her about her son’s well-being.

** Mrs Prior, who like most Britons outside of the port cities of
** Liverpool, Cardiff, London and Bristol, has never seen a black
** person before, told her:

“Mrs Monk, you have a son to treasure and feel very proud of. We
have told him he can look upon our home as his home while in our
country. We shall take every care of him . . . we will look upon
him now as our own.”

Adjacent to that text is this quotation:

“The general consensus of
opinion seems to be that the
only American soldiers
with decent manners are the
Negroes.”
George Orwell

There is much more in that review.

I've read elsewhere that when black GIs arrived in Northern Ireland
during WWII at least one commented something like "This is the first
time I've been called an American".

{Northern Ireland was the landing place and initial "home" for GIs sent
to the UK.
https://wartimeni.com/forces-in-northern-ireland/united-states-army/

United States Army in Northern Ireland

The first troops of the United States Army to enter the European
Theatre of Operations landed at Dufferin Dock, Belfast, Co. Antrim
on 26th January 1942.

Between 1942 and the end of World War Two, around 300,000 American
service personnel passed through Ulster. At its peak, US military
personnel made up around 1/10th of Northern Ireland's population.

American troops were scattered across the country as they prepared
to enter battle in North Africa and Normandy. While training, they
opened Irish eyes to American culture. This included sports such as
American Football and Baseball. By the end of the Second World War,
American GIs had made a huge impression on the people of Northern
Ireland. In fact, almost 2,000 women from Ulster became GI brides
and left Irish shores to start a new life in the USA during
peacetime.

Without Northern Ireland, I do not see how the American forces
could have been concentrated to begin the invasion. The city of
Belfast, its facilities, people, and influences made possible
the beginning of that concentration.

General Dwight D Eisenhower, Speech at Belfast City Hall,
August 1945.
}
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Dingbat
2020-04-03 01:51:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
This reviews the book "Forgotten: The Untold Story of D-Day’s Black
Heroes, at Home and at War", by US journalist Linda Hervieux,
publ. 2015.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/12035018/Revealed-How-Britons-welcomed-black-soldiers-during-WWII-and-fought-alongside-them-against-racist-GIs.html
Revealed: How Britons welcomed black soldiers during WWII, and
fought alongside them against racist GIs
Black American GIs billeted in the UK during WWII found warm welcome
from British families, in contrast to vicious racist abuse meted out
by their fellow countrymen
“In Britain America’s black soldiers were welcomed and treated with
respect and kindness. Once they returned home, there was no going
back,” she said. “Equitable treatment abroad helped fuel the budding
civil rights movement that would rock America in the coming
decades.”
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black GIs. The
pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall I build
an outhouse for you white Americans?"
J. J. Lodder
2020-04-03 11:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
This reviews the book "Forgotten: The Untold Story of D-Day's Black
Heroes, at Home and at War", by US journalist Linda Hervieux,
publ. 2015.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/12035018/Revealed-How-Brit
ons-welcomed-black-soldiers-during-WWII-and-fought-alongside-them-agains
t-racist-GIs.html
Post by Dingbat
Revealed: How Britons welcomed black soldiers during WWII, and
fought alongside them against racist GIs
Black American GIs billeted in the UK during WWII found warm welcome
from British families, in contrast to vicious racist abuse meted out
by their fellow countrymen
"In Britain America's black soldiers were welcomed and treated with
respect and kindness. Once they returned home, there was no going
back," she said. "Equitable treatment abroad helped fuel the budding
civil rights movement that would rock America in the coming
decades."
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black GIs. The
pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall I build
an outhouse for you white Americans?"
I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.

Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
I guess Arthur Clarke's naming of his pub is a tribute,

Jan
Dingbat
2020-04-03 13:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Dingbat
This reviews the book "Forgotten: The Untold Story of D-Day's Black
Heroes, at Home and at War", by US journalist Linda Hervieux,
publ. 2015.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/12035018/Revealed-How-Brit
ons-welcomed-black-soldiers-during-WWII-and-fought-alongside-them-agains
t-racist-GIs.html
Post by Dingbat
Revealed: How Britons welcomed black soldiers during WWII, and
fought alongside them against racist GIs
Black American GIs billeted in the UK during WWII found warm welcome
from British families, in contrast to vicious racist abuse meted out
by their fellow countrymen
"In Britain America's black soldiers were welcomed and treated with
respect and kindness. Once they returned home, there was no going
back," she said. "Equitable treatment abroad helped fuel the budding
civil rights movement that would rock America in the coming
decades."
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black GIs. The
pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall I build
an outhouse for you white Americans?"
I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
I guess Arthur Clarke's naming of his pub is a tribute,
Perhaps racist whites thought the name of the pub meant that its
proprietor was of their ilk:->

You couldn't name a pub 'The Black Hart'
https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/black-heart/

It would have to be 'The Black Hind'.
charles
2020-04-03 13:54:50 UTC
Permalink
In article <e099dd02-5bc9-45d0-89b4-***@googlegroups.com>,
Dingbat <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Snip]
Post by Dingbat
Perhaps racist whites thought the name of the pub meant that its
proprietor was of their ilk:->
You couldn't name a pub 'The Black Hart'
https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/black-heart/
It would have to be 'The Black Hind'.
In Iraq, the US forces were very puzzled about "The Black Watch".
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Peter Moylan
2020-04-04 01:46:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
[Snip]
Post by Dingbat
Perhaps racist whites thought the name of the pub meant that its
proprietor was of their ilk:->
You couldn't name a pub 'The Black Hart'
https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/black-heart/
It would have to be 'The Black Hind'.
In Iraq, the US forces were very puzzled about "The Black Watch".
Isn't that the name of a beetle?

(Googles.) No, sorry, I was thinking of the deathwatch beetle. Nothing
Scottish about it.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-04-04 06:32:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by charles
[Snip]
Post by Dingbat
Perhaps racist whites thought the name of the pub meant that its
proprietor was of their ilk:->
You couldn't name a pub 'The Black Hart'
https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/black-heart/
It would have to be 'The Black Hind'.
In Iraq, the US forces were very puzzled about "The Black Watch".
Isn't that the name of a beetle?
You're thinking of the African-American widow.
Post by Peter Moylan
(Googles.) No, sorry, I was thinking of the deathwatch beetle. Nothing
Scottish about it.
--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-04-03 14:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Dingbat
This reviews the book "Forgotten: The Untold Story of D-Day's
Black Heroes, at Home and at War", by US journalist Linda
Hervieux, publ. 2015.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/12035018/Reveale
d-How-Brit
ons-welcomed-black-soldiers-during-WWII-and-fought-alongside-them-agai
ns t-racist-GIs.html
Post by Dingbat
Revealed: How Britons welcomed black soldiers during WWII,
and fought alongside them against racist GIs
Black American GIs billeted in the UK during WWII found warm
welcome from British families, in contrast to vicious racist
abuse meted out by their fellow countrymen
"In Britain America's black soldiers were welcomed and
treated with respect and kindness. Once they returned home,
there was no going back," she said. "Equitable treatment
abroad helped fuel the budding civil rights movement that
would rock America in the coming decades."
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black GIs.
The pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share
our facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall I
build an outhouse for you white Americans?"
I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white
officers. The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
I guess Arthur Clarke's naming of his pub is a tribute,
Perhaps racist whites thought the name of the pub meant that its
proprietor was of their ilk:->
You couldn't name a pub 'The Black Hart'
https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/black-heart/
It would have to be 'The Black Hind'.
Well there are/were pubs called the "Black Boy"

Seems there's still a lot:
https://whatpub.com/search?q=black+boy
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Dingbat
2020-04-03 14:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Dingbat
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black GIs. The
pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall I build
an outhouse for you white Americans?"
I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
Goodness knows why!
Post by J. J. Lodder
I guess Arthur Clarke's naming of his pub is a tribute,
Arthur Clark's fictional pub of that name is named after The White Horse
pub near Fleet St.

There are several White Horse Bar-Restaurant establishments in India;
I don't know how they came to be so named.
charles
2020-04-03 15:30:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Dingbat
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white
American GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for
black GIs. The pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We
British share our facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so
share, shall I build an outhouse for you white Americans?"
I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
Goodness knows why!
Post by J. J. Lodder
I guess Arthur Clarke's naming of his pub is a tribute,
Arthur Clark's fictional pub of that name is named after The White Horse
pub near Fleet St.
There are several White Horse Bar-Restaurant establishments in India;
I don't know how they came to be so named.
perhaps by some of the Brits who were there. They did bring their own horses
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-04-03 15:43:45 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Apr 2020 07:48:49 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
Post by Dingbat
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Dingbat
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black GIs. The
pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall I build
an outhouse for you white Americans?"
I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
Goodness knows why!
"White Hart" is a common name for a pub in England. The only thing
special about it is that it is a distinctively English name for a pub.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hart

The White Hart ("hart" being an archaic word for a mature stag) was
the personal badge of Richard II, who probably derived it from the
arms of his mother, Joan "The Fair Maid of Kent", heiress of Edmund
of Woodstock. It may also have been a pun on his name, as in
"Rich-hart". In the Wilton Diptych (National Gallery, London), which
is the earliest authentic contemporary portrait of an English king,
Richard II wears a gold and enamelled white hart jewel, and even the
angels surrounding the Virgin Mary all wear white hart badges. In
English Folklore, the white hart is associated with Herne the
Hunter.
The White Hart pub sign

There are still many inns and pubs in England that sport a sign of
-> the white hart, the fifth most popular name for a pub.

Arthur C. Clarke wrote a collection of science fictional tall tales
under the title of Tales from the White Hart, which used as a
framing device the conceit that the tales were told during drinking
sessions in a pub named the White Hart that existed somewhere
between Fleet Street and the Embankment. This pub was fictional, but
was based on a real pub named the White Horse where the science
fiction community of London met in the 1940s and 1950s.
Post by Dingbat
Post by J. J. Lodder
I guess Arthur Clarke's naming of his pub is a tribute,
Arthur Clark's fictional pub of that name is named after The White Horse
pub near Fleet St.
There are several White Horse Bar-Restaurant establishments in India;
I don't know how they came to be so named.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Young
2020-04-03 16:04:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Dingbat
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black GIs. The
pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall I build
an outhouse for you white Americans?"
I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
The badge of King Richard II of England.

Many pub names reflect past Royal or political allegiances. Just a few

Royal Oak
Blue Boar
Royal William
Red Dragon
White Horse
Spread Eagle

And many more.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Dingbat
2020-04-03 18:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Dingbat
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black GIs. The
pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall I build
an outhouse for you white Americans?"
I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
The badge of King Richard II of England.
Ypu must mean Richard "Lionheart" I.

Richard "of Bordeaux" II, son of Edward the Black Prince, was deposed
without having served long, imprisoned and murdered in prison.
Post by Peter Young
Many pub names reflect past Royal or political allegiances. Just a few
Royal Oak
Blue Boar
Royal William
Red Dragon
White Horse
Spread Eagle
And many more.
Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-04-03 19:00:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Peter Young
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Dingbat
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black GIs. The
pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall I build
an outhouse for you white Americans?"
I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
The badge of King Richard II of England.
Ypu must mean Richard "Lionheart" I.
Richard "of Bordeaux" II, son of Edward the Black Prince, was deposed
without having served long, imprisoned and murdered in prison.
Yes. I was surprised that anyone would celebrate Richard II. II isn't a
very lucky number for Kings of England -- think William (shot with an
arrow by one of his own men), Richard (probably starved to death in
prison), Edward (murdered in a very nasty way in Berkeley Castle). On
the other hand Henry and Charles did OK. Can anyone remember anything
about George?
--
athel
Sam Plusnet
2020-04-03 19:23:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Peter Young
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Dingbat
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black GIs. The
pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall I build
an outhouse for you white Americans?"
I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
The badge of King Richard II of England.
Ypu must mean Richard "Lionheart" I.
Richard "of Bordeaux" II, son of Edward the Black Prince, was deposed
without having served long, imprisoned and murdered in prison.
Peter is correct, it was the MkII Richard.

Loading Image...
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Young
2020-04-03 21:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Dingbat
Post by Peter Young
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Dingbat
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black GIs. The
pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall I build
an outhouse for you white Americans?"
I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
The badge of King Richard II of England.
Ypu must mean Richard "Lionheart" I.
Richard "of Bordeaux" II, son of Edward the Black Prince, was deposed
without having served long, imprisoned and murdered in prison.
Peter is correct, it was the MkII Richard.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Wilton_diptych.jpg
Thanks, Sam, but I'm not sure of the relevance of the image.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Katy Jennison
2020-04-03 22:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Dingbat
Post by Peter Young
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Dingbat
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black GIs. The
pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall I build
an outhouse for you white Americans?"
I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
The badge of King Richard II of England.
Ypu must mean Richard "Lionheart" I.
Richard "of Bordeaux" II, son of Edward the Black Prince, was deposed
without having served long, imprisoned and murdered in prison.
Peter is correct, it was the MkII Richard.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Wilton_diptych.jpg
Thanks, Sam, but I'm not sure of the relevance of the image.
That's Richard kneeling, and the white hart badge is visible on his chest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilton_Diptych
--
Katy Jennison
Sam Plusnet
2020-04-04 01:06:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Young
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Dingbat
Post by Peter Young
Post by Dingbat
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
   GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black
GIs. The
   pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
   facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall
I build
   an outhouse for you white Americans?"
   I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is
right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
The badge of King Richard II of England.
Ypu must mean Richard "Lionheart" I.
Richard "of Bordeaux" II, son of Edward the Black Prince, was deposed
   without having served long, imprisoned and murdered in prison.
Peter is correct, it was the MkII Richard.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Wilton_diptych.jpg
Thanks, Sam, but I'm not sure of the relevance of the image.
That's Richard kneeling, and the white hart badge is visible on his chest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilton_Diptych
Also on the angelic host on the right half - as mentioned in the post by
Peter D.

It does seem rather boastful to suggest that the heavenly host choose to
wear your personal badge, but perhaps that's all part of the divine
right of kings.
I assume they swap to a different uniform for the next Monarch.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Young
2020-04-04 15:52:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Young
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Dingbat
Post by Peter Young
Post by Dingbat
In the 1947 book The Chequer Board by Nevil Shute, some white American
   GIs ask an English pub owner to provide an outhouse for black
GIs. The
   pub owner retorts (paraphrased/ abridged), "We British share our
   facilities with blacks. If you don't care to so share, shall
I build
   an outhouse for you white Americans?"
   I do not find 'outhouse' in the book, but your description is
right.
The book is about race relations among the Americans,
and about the Brits not accepting the open racism of the white officers.
The publican even writes a letter,
adressed to General Eisenhower in person,
asking him to put things right.
Trivia: the pub is called 'The White Hart'.
The badge of King Richard II of England.
Ypu must mean Richard "Lionheart" I.
Richard "of Bordeaux" II, son of Edward the Black Prince, was deposed
   without having served long, imprisoned and murdered in prison.
Peter is correct, it was the MkII Richard.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Wilton_diptych.jpg
Thanks, Sam, but I'm not sure of the relevance of the image.
That's Richard kneeling, and the white hart badge is visible on his chest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilton_Diptych
Also on the angelic host on the right half - as mentioned in the post by
Peter D.
I see it now, thanks.
Post by Sam Plusnet
It does seem rather boastful to suggest that the heavenly host choose to
wear your personal badge, but perhaps that's all part of the divine
right of kings.
I assume they swap to a different uniform for the next Monarch.
<grin>

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
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