Discussion:
Question: Best way to produce B&W images from color
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BD
2005-08-29 20:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Hi, all.

I have some color photos I want to convert to B&W.

My first attempt would be to change to Greyscale mode, but I've been
told that this is an extremely 'brutal' way to do it, and is very
lossy.

I also tried the Saturation slider, in hopes of retaining more detail.

Are there any strong opinions as to the best way to convert to B&W and
still retain all the image fidelity possible?

One fellow I spoke to mentioned something about adjusting each color
channel separately, but I've not seen any specifics on this process.

Thanks!!
Johan W. Elzenga
2005-08-29 20:53:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by BD
I have some color photos I want to convert to B&W.
My first attempt would be to change to Greyscale mode, but I've been
told that this is an extremely 'brutal' way to do it, and is very
lossy.
There is nothing 'lossy' about it, except of course that you loose all
color. However, it is a method without any manual control.
Post by BD
I also tried the Saturation slider, in hopes of retaining more detail.
Same thing. It works, but no control whatsoever.
Post by BD
Are there any strong opinions as to the best way to convert to B&W and
still retain all the image fidelity possible?
One fellow I spoke to mentioned something about adjusting each color
channel separately, but I've not seen any specifics on this process.
He means using the Channel Mixer, and set the output to grayscale. Now
you can make any mix of channels, so you can control very well how the
conversion from color to B&W is done.
--
Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl
Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/
BD
2005-08-29 20:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Interesting. I hadn't thought of it before, but I guess the different
channels can have different effects on the output images that could not
be 'duplicated' when making adjustments to a one-channel greyscale
image.

So it sounds to me as if the issue is not so much one of retaining
fidelity, but with allowing more flexibility in the 'flavor' of the
output image. Is that a fair way to put it?
Johan W. Elzenga
2005-08-29 21:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by BD
Interesting. I hadn't thought of it before, but I guess the different
channels can have different effects on the output images that could not
be 'duplicated' when making adjustments to a one-channel greyscale
image.
So it sounds to me as if the issue is not so much one of retaining
fidelity, but with allowing more flexibility in the 'flavor' of the
output image. Is that a fair way to put it?
Yes. You can compare it to using an B&W film and then trying different
color filters. In all cases you get a B&W image, but different colors
are translated differently to greyscale for each filter.
--
Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl
Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/
Lorem Ipsum
2005-08-29 21:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by BD
Interesting. I hadn't thought of it before, but I guess the different
channels can have different effects on the output images that could not
be 'duplicated' when making adjustments to a one-channel greyscale
image.
Consider it the same as using color contrast filters with B&W film.
BD
2005-08-29 21:39:25 UTC
Permalink
Yup, makes sense. Looking forward to mucking with some portrait shots
to get different nuances...

Thanks!
Bill Hilton
2005-08-29 21:52:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by BD
Looking forward to mucking with some portrait shots
to get different nuances...
For portraits it's often the case that using just the Green channel
works best ... so before mucking with Channel Mixer open Channels and
look at just the G ...
BD
2005-08-29 22:29:12 UTC
Permalink
Will do...
Bill Hilton
2005-08-29 21:50:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by BD
So it sounds to me as if the issue is not so much one of retaining
fidelity, but with allowing more flexibility in the 'flavor' of the
output image. Is that a fair way to put it?
"Grayscale" conversion uses a fixed percent of each channel, I think
59% G, 30% R, 11% B, something like that (don't quote me). This is
usually OK but rarely optimal. Using Channel Mixer in Monochrome mode
lets you mix the percents any way you wish, so it's more flexible.
Hecate
2005-08-30 21:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Hilton
Post by BD
So it sounds to me as if the issue is not so much one of retaining
fidelity, but with allowing more flexibility in the 'flavor' of the
output image. Is that a fair way to put it?
"Grayscale" conversion uses a fixed percent of each channel, I think
59% G, 30% R, 11% B, something like that (don't quote me). This is
usually OK but rarely optimal. Using Channel Mixer in Monochrome mode
lets you mix the percents any way you wish, so it's more flexible.
It's 3:6:1 R:G:B.

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Bart van der Wolf
2005-08-31 13:41:14 UTC
Permalink
SNIP
Post by Hecate
Post by Bill Hilton
"Grayscale" conversion uses a fixed percent of each channel, I
think 59% G, 30% R, 11% B, something like that (don't quote
me). This is usually OK but rarely optimal. Using Channel
Mixer in Monochrome mode lets you mix the percents any way
you wish, so it's more flexible.
It's 3:6:1 R:G:B.
I would expect Adobe to use an RGB to YUV conversion:
y = ((76*r) + (150*g) + (29*b)) / 256 , (= approx. R=30% G=59% B=11%),
but Gamma may play a role in the actual conversion.

If you have an Adobe reference to 3:6:1, I'd be interested.

Bart
Hecate
2005-09-01 00:54:03 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:41:14 +0200, "Bart van der Wolf"
Post by Bart van der Wolf
SNIP
Post by Hecate
Post by Bill Hilton
"Grayscale" conversion uses a fixed percent of each channel, I
think 59% G, 30% R, 11% B, something like that (don't quote
me). This is usually OK but rarely optimal. Using Channel
Mixer in Monochrome mode lets you mix the percents any way
you wish, so it's more flexible.
It's 3:6:1 R:G:B.
y = ((76*r) + (150*g) + (29*b)) / 256 , (= approx. R=30% G=59% B=11%),
but Gamma may play a role in the actual conversion.
If you have an Adobe reference to 3:6:1, I'd be interested.
If I can find it, I will. But I read it in a book or article. I'm not
really keen on online sources :)

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
SJB
2005-08-29 23:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Why don't you look-up a tut on using "calculations". It's a very versatile
way to convert to B&W with endless control possibilities.

Another option is to use two adjustment layers. For a quick and dirty tut
on that technique checkout the podcast "2 minute photoshop tricks" episode
#2. (No I'm not a shill for them, I recently found out about this 'cast
myself and just started listening and your question sparked the reference).
I've seen this same technique before (possibly Photoshop User mag) ... I've
tried it and it gives you lots of control too.

Play and have fun.

SB
Post by BD
Hi, all.
I have some color photos I want to convert to B&W.
My first attempt would be to change to Greyscale mode, but I've been
told that this is an extremely 'brutal' way to do it, and is very
lossy.
I also tried the Saturation slider, in hopes of retaining more detail.
Are there any strong opinions as to the best way to convert to B&W and
still retain all the image fidelity possible?
One fellow I spoke to mentioned something about adjusting each color
channel separately, but I've not seen any specifics on this process.
Thanks!!
BD
2005-08-30 16:05:52 UTC
Permalink
Hey, thanks for the tip. I'll look for that cast and see if I can get
it.

Never heard of 'calculations' before, but I guess the more ammo I have
the better off I am. ;-)
SJB
2005-08-31 22:25:53 UTC
Permalink
You'll find it under the "Image" menu ... 4th item down. A lot of folks
avoid it b/c they believe it will be too difficult ... not so. If you're in
a mood to play you could spend lots of time with it exploring subtle and not
so subtle conversions. Don't forget to play with the blending modes too.
Post by BD
Hey, thanks for the tip. I'll look for that cast and see if I can get
it.
Never heard of 'calculations' before, but I guess the more ammo I have
the better off I am. ;-)
Clyde
2005-08-31 14:35:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by BD
Hi, all.
I have some color photos I want to convert to B&W.
My first attempt would be to change to Greyscale mode, but I've been
told that this is an extremely 'brutal' way to do it, and is very
lossy.
I also tried the Saturation slider, in hopes of retaining more detail.
Are there any strong opinions as to the best way to convert to B&W and
still retain all the image fidelity possible?
One fellow I spoke to mentioned something about adjusting each color
channel separately, but I've not seen any specifics on this process.
Thanks!!
I like the method described here:
http://www.russellbrown.com/tips_tech.html Scroll down to the "Seeing
in Black & White" in the Photoshop 7 area.

Clyde
John McWilliams
2005-08-31 15:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clyde
Post by BD
Hi, all.
I have some color photos I want to convert to B&W.
My first attempt would be to change to Greyscale mode, but I've been
told that this is an extremely 'brutal' way to do it, and is very
lossy.
I also tried the Saturation slider, in hopes of retaining more detail.
Are there any strong opinions as to the best way to convert to B&W and
still retain all the image fidelity possible?
One fellow I spoke to mentioned something about adjusting each color
channel separately, but I've not seen any specifics on this process.
Thanks!!
http://www.russellbrown.com/tips_tech.html Scroll down to the "Seeing
in Black & White" in the Photoshop 7 area.
I've been using and like that method, too, but I now need to see if
there's a way to do mass B+W conversions for a newspaper that publishes
only B+W. I made an action that sets up the filters, and for processing
a large number of similar files the same way, it's easy enough to set
all the parameters and have the action applied and then flattened.

But for a large number of disparate images from a wide variety of
sources, is there a preferred way to convert to B+W?
--
John McWilliams
Clyde
2005-09-01 15:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by John McWilliams
Post by Clyde
Post by BD
Hi, all.
I have some color photos I want to convert to B&W.
My first attempt would be to change to Greyscale mode, but I've been
told that this is an extremely 'brutal' way to do it, and is very
lossy.
I also tried the Saturation slider, in hopes of retaining more detail.
Are there any strong opinions as to the best way to convert to B&W and
still retain all the image fidelity possible?
One fellow I spoke to mentioned something about adjusting each color
channel separately, but I've not seen any specifics on this process.
Thanks!!
http://www.russellbrown.com/tips_tech.html Scroll down to the "Seeing
in Black & White" in the Photoshop 7 area.
I've been using and like that method, too, but I now need to see if
there's a way to do mass B+W conversions for a newspaper that publishes
only B+W. I made an action that sets up the filters, and for processing
a large number of similar files the same way, it's easy enough to set
all the parameters and have the action applied and then flattened.
But for a large number of disparate images from a wide variety of
sources, is there a preferred way to convert to B+W?
I DO use this method for a large number of pictures at a time. I'm a
part-time wedding photographer. I shoot all digital and give all final
pictures to the bride and groom in both color and B&W.

I have Dr. Brown's method in an action that creates the two adjustment
layers. After all the color editing is done, I then go through a few of
the pictures to get a nice average on the Hue that works best. My keys
are to get the skin tones and the bride's dress looking their best in
B&W. That stays pretty consistent throughout a wedding. Actually it
stays pretty much at -100 for all weddings.

I have that action stop so I can manually adjust the layer if I want to.
I have a second action that flattens, converts to Grayscale, and then
converts to Duotone. Well, I have worked out a Tritone that I like with
my wedding pictures; brides seem to like it too.

When I'm happy with it. I make an action that I call Batch. It has
nothing in it but the references to the above two actions. Then I let
File Browser (now Bridge) run that action on the hundreds of pictures in
that wedding. Minutes later I have lovely B&W versions of all the
pictures. It's very simple, quick, and lovely.

I have been know to go back and manually redo a few of the pictures. I
still have the two actions that I can do with that pause for adjusting
the Hue in the middle and the Duotone at the end. It's still fast and easy.

If all your pictures have complete different lighting, colors, and
contrast this might be a bit difficult. However, I doubt that really is
the case. Look for the key items for your conversion. If skin and
clothes are the key, forget everything else. If the green of the trees
and the sky are the keys, pay no attention to the result of the flowers.

You could also break your workflow up into groups. This group is all the
inside shots of the story with another batch for all the outside shots
of the story. Then you would only have a single adjustment of the Hue in
your action between batch runs.

The big difference between an amateur photographer using Photoshop and a
professional photographer using Photoshop is the workflow. As a pro you
HAVE to automate and make it all go as fast as you can and still get the
top quality. Of course, it is a quality that is needed for the customer
not the theoretical "top" quality. I did a few weddings where I adjusted
the Hue and Duotone nicely fit the mood of small groups of pictures. The
brides didn't notice and it took a lot of work. I do the whole wedding
the same now and the brides love it.

I can't imagine that large groups of pictures for a newspaper couldn't
use my workflow. The final output demands much less "quality" that
wedding photos. I'm sure you could find a Hue that would work good
enough for large batches and no one would notice a thing in the paper
itself. i.e. Don't spend time adjusting the fine gradations of B&W if it
won't show on the newsprint.

Clyde
John McWilliams
2005-09-01 21:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Clyde wrote:

<< Snipped very helpful bits out >>

Thanks so much, Clyde. I have come to a maxum for the way I shoot:
Everytime I shoot in RAW, I find the exposure and color balance is spot
on. The converse is true too many times.

Now I have a bunch of overexposed digitals - head shots of HS boys on
the football team that I want to prepare for a program that'll be made
up. The program will be B+W, and the initial adjustments via levels
seemed to leave the B+Ws a bit short on contrast. The exposures are all
close enough so that when I get the right adjustments and conversion to
grey scale, I can run an action. This is not for a newspaper, but I'd be
dealing possibly with a local Kinko's and wonder what instructions can
be given, etc. when if and as I get some decent output.
--
John McWilliams
Clyde
2005-09-02 13:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John McWilliams
<< Snipped very helpful bits out >>
Everytime I shoot in RAW, I find the exposure and color balance is spot
on. The converse is true too many times.
Now I have a bunch of overexposed digitals - head shots of HS boys on
the football team that I want to prepare for a program that'll be made
up. The program will be B+W, and the initial adjustments via levels
seemed to leave the B+Ws a bit short on contrast. The exposures are all
close enough so that when I get the right adjustments and conversion to
grey scale, I can run an action. This is not for a newspaper, but I'd be
dealing possibly with a local Kinko's and wonder what instructions can
be given, etc. when if and as I get some decent output.
Oh boy! Instructing Kinkos would be a very iffy process. The level of
expertise in a single Kinkos would vary from nil to pretty good with the
bet being toward the bottom.

I think I would convert the final output to sRGB to get to the lowest
common denominator. Then I would save everything in 300 dpi PDF files.
They are less likely to screw up the printing of Acrobat files than just
about anything. That way any ignored instructions will still give you
pretty good prints.

Clyde

KatWoman
2005-09-01 01:22:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by BD
Hi, all.
I have some color photos I want to convert to B&W.
My first attempt would be to change to Greyscale mode, but I've been
told that this is an extremely 'brutal' way to do it, and is very
lossy.
I also tried the Saturation slider, in hopes of retaining more detail.
Are there any strong opinions as to the best way to convert to B&W and
still retain all the image fidelity possible?
One fellow I spoke to mentioned something about adjusting each color
channel separately, but I've not seen any specifics on this process.
Thanks!!
from Adobe tutorial at their website:

make a hue saturation layer and leave the slider alone for now
make a second Hue/sat layer and use the saturate slider all the way left
put this layer on blending mode called HUE
now go back to first hue sat layer and move the top slider around till you
are happy

cheap fast way
one hue sat layer to desat
one layer above that to fix levels or curves
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