Discussion:
Coronavirus: TfL reveals 20 busiest Tube and train stations 'to avoid'
(too old to reply)
Roland Perry
2020-05-18 14:34:18 UTC
Permalink
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52708757

Some rather surprising inclusions and omissions:

Full list of London's busiest stations: [nb no "to avoid"]

Barking
Brixton
Canada Water
Canary Wharf
Canning Town
Clapham Junction
East Croydon
East Ham
Lewisham
Leyton
Liverpool Street
London Bridge
North Acton
Seven Sisters
Stratford
Walthamstow Central
West Croydon
West Ham
Wood Green
Woolwich Arsenal

eg Wood Green, but not
Oxford-Circus/Bank/Hloborn/Victoria/Waterloo/Paddington/Euston/KGX-STP/et
c/etc.
--
Roland Perry
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-18 15:42:12 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 May 2020 15:34:18 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52708757
I wondering if this country has lost its collective sanity. If you need to get
to work you need to get to work - telling people to avoid stations is absurd.
As for "social" distancing on public transport, give me a break. Adults should
be able to decide for themselves if they want to risk it, not have some nanny
state nonsense make everyones life difficult.
MissRiaElaine
2020-05-18 22:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Mon, 18 May 2020 15:34:18 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52708757
I wondering if this country has lost its collective sanity. If you need to get
to work you need to get to work - telling people to avoid stations is absurd.
As for "social" distancing on public transport, give me a break. Adults should
be able to decide for themselves if they want to risk it, not have some nanny
state nonsense make everyones life difficult.
Precisely. It's like this insane business of telling people they should
wear face masks on public transport and in shops. My other half's sister
is an operating theatre manager and she says they're a waste of time for
the general public. You have to know how to put them on and take them
off, and *not* to touch or fiddle with them while they're on. Unlike the
numpty we saw behind the deli counter at one of the local stupid markets
the other day.

I'd rather believe her than some fool government spokesman, I don't
always agree with her on everything, but in medical matters I like to
think that she knows what she's talking about.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

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Recliner
2020-05-18 22:48:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Mon, 18 May 2020 15:34:18 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52708757
I wondering if this country has lost its collective sanity. If you need to get
to work you need to get to work - telling people to avoid stations is absurd.
As for "social" distancing on public transport, give me a break. Adults should
be able to decide for themselves if they want to risk it, not have some nanny
state nonsense make everyones life difficult.
Precisely. It's like this insane business of telling people they should
wear face masks on public transport and in shops. My other half's sister
is an operating theatre manager and she says they're a waste of time for
the general public. You have to know how to put them on and take them
off, and *not* to touch or fiddle with them while they're on. Unlike the
numpty we saw behind the deli counter at one of the local stupid markets
the other day.
I'd rather believe her than some fool government spokesman, I don't
always agree with her on everything, but in medical matters I like to
think that she knows what she's talking about.
Masks worn by the public are NOT meant to protect the wearer. They're not
PPE, and they don't perform the same function as the gear that operating
theatre staff wear to protect themselves from infection. So your ohs's
comments are irrelevant in this context.

The masks that the public may choose to wear on the bus, train, plane or
shop sole purpose is to protect *other* people from the wearer's saliva,
should they be infected. So it doesn't matter in the slightest if they don
or remove them properly, and they don't need to wash them at 60°C. The
masks don't need to fit perfectly, just well enough to stop droplets of the
wearer's saliva from being sprayed around. Without a mask, a sneeze,loud
conversation or cough can spray droplets for several metres, and they'll
linger in the air; with a mask, even a home-made, two-layer, crude one, the
droplets won't get very far. And that's the only reason to wear one.

Just remember, when you wear a mask, you're saving other people from
contamination by *you*, not protecting yourself.
MissRiaElaine
2020-05-18 23:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Mon, 18 May 2020 15:34:18 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52708757
I wondering if this country has lost its collective sanity. If you need to get
to work you need to get to work - telling people to avoid stations is absurd.
As for "social" distancing on public transport, give me a break. Adults should
be able to decide for themselves if they want to risk it, not have some nanny
state nonsense make everyones life difficult.
Precisely. It's like this insane business of telling people they should
wear face masks on public transport and in shops. My other half's sister
is an operating theatre manager and she says they're a waste of time for
the general public. You have to know how to put them on and take them
off, and *not* to touch or fiddle with them while they're on. Unlike the
numpty we saw behind the deli counter at one of the local stupid markets
the other day.
I'd rather believe her than some fool government spokesman, I don't
always agree with her on everything, but in medical matters I like to
think that she knows what she's talking about.
Masks worn by the public are NOT meant to protect the wearer. They're not
PPE, and they don't perform the same function as the gear that operating
theatre staff wear to protect themselves from infection. So your ohs's
comments are irrelevant in this context.
The masks that the public may choose to wear on the bus, train, plane or
shop sole purpose is to protect *other* people from the wearer's saliva,
should they be infected. So it doesn't matter in the slightest if they don
or remove them properly, and they don't need to wash them at 60°C. The
masks don't need to fit perfectly, just well enough to stop droplets of the
wearer's saliva from being sprayed around. Without a mask, a sneeze,loud
conversation or cough can spray droplets for several metres, and they'll
linger in the air; with a mask, even a home-made, two-layer, crude one, the
droplets won't get very far. And that's the only reason to wear one.
Just remember, when you wear a mask, you're saving other people from
contamination by *you*, not protecting yourself.
I'd still rather believe her than you.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

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Recliner
2020-05-18 23:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Mon, 18 May 2020 15:34:18 +0100
Post by Roland Perry
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52708757
I wondering if this country has lost its collective sanity. If you need to get
to work you need to get to work - telling people to avoid stations is absurd.
As for "social" distancing on public transport, give me a break. Adults should
be able to decide for themselves if they want to risk it, not have some nanny
state nonsense make everyones life difficult.
Precisely. It's like this insane business of telling people they should
wear face masks on public transport and in shops. My other half's sister
is an operating theatre manager and she says they're a waste of time for
the general public. You have to know how to put them on and take them
off, and *not* to touch or fiddle with them while they're on. Unlike the
numpty we saw behind the deli counter at one of the local stupid markets
the other day.
I'd rather believe her than some fool government spokesman, I don't
always agree with her on everything, but in medical matters I like to
think that she knows what she's talking about.
Masks worn by the public are NOT meant to protect the wearer. They're not
PPE, and they don't perform the same function as the gear that operating
theatre staff wear to protect themselves from infection. So your ohs's
comments are irrelevant in this context.
The masks that the public may choose to wear on the bus, train, plane or
shop sole purpose is to protect *other* people from the wearer's saliva,
should they be infected. So it doesn't matter in the slightest if they don
or remove them properly, and they don't need to wash them at 60°C. The
masks don't need to fit perfectly, just well enough to stop droplets of the
wearer's saliva from being sprayed around. Without a mask, a sneeze,loud
conversation or cough can spray droplets for several metres, and they'll
linger in the air; with a mask, even a home-made, two-layer, crude one, the
droplets won't get very far. And that's the only reason to wear one.
Just remember, when you wear a mask, you're saving other people from
contamination by *you*, not protecting yourself.
I'd still rather believe her than you.
Of course you should believe her about PPE, and follow her advice when you
start your job as a surgeon or operating theatre sister.

I'm obviously not disagreeing with her — she's talking about PPE, I'm not.
Bus passengers don't wear PPE, but perhaps some drivers would like to. Why
don't you ask her the right question?

The government doesn't want tens of millions of members of the public
buying up medical-grade PPE, which they don't need, at the expense of
medical and care home staff, who do. But please free to leave a care home
worker unprotected while you selfishly grab the PPE they needed and you
don't.
Roland Perry
2020-05-19 09:24:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Masks worn by the public are NOT meant to protect the wearer.
They're not PPE, and they don't perform the same function as the gear
that operating theatre staff wear to protect themselves from
infection. So your ohs's comments are irrelevant in this context.
The masks that the public may choose to wear on the bus, train,
plane or shop sole purpose is to protect *other* people from the
wearer's saliva, should they be infected. So it doesn't matter in the
slightest if they don or remove them properly, and they don't need to
wash them at 60°C. The masks don't need to fit perfectly, just well
enough to stop droplets of the wearer's saliva from being sprayed
around. Without a mask, a sneeze,loud conversation or cough can spray
droplets for several metres, and they'll linger in the air; with a
mask, even a home-made, two-layer, crude one, the droplets won't get
very far. And that's the only reason to wear one.
Just remember, when you wear a mask, you're saving other people from
contamination by *you*, not protecting yourself.
I'd still rather believe her than you.
She's got the wrong end of the stick. You should tell her they are to
protect the rest of the world from the wearer, not the other way round.
Then it becomes clear.
--
Roland Perry
MissRiaElaine
2020-05-19 13:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
She's got the wrong end of the stick. You should tell her they are to
protect the rest of the world from the wearer, not the other way round.
Then it becomes clear.
But they don't do that either. Touching and fiddling with them
contaminates your hands, you then touch stuff, they are a waste of time
and she has not got the wrong end of the stick at all.

I have seen people wearing the exact same type of paper masks worn by
surgeons, they are, and I repeat, useless for any task in the public arena.

You carry on believing what you want, and so will I. When you show me
your medical qualifications and your expertise in disease control, I
might, just might, take notice of you.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Sammi Gray-Jones
2020-05-19 14:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Roland Perry
She's got the wrong end of the stick. You should tell her they are to
protect the rest of the world from the wearer, not the other way
round. Then it becomes clear.
But they don't do that either. Touching and fiddling with them
contaminates your hands, you then touch stuff, they are a waste of time
and she has not got the wrong end of the stick at all.
I have seen people wearing the exact same type of paper masks worn by
surgeons, they are, and I repeat, useless for any task in the public arena.
You carry on believing what you want, and so will I. When you show me
your medical qualifications and your expertise in disease control, I
might, just might, take notice of you.
A further point that you may not be aware of the *majority* of masks
that you see people wearing become ineffective after a few minutes due
to the moisture expelled from the wearer, and microscopic droplets will
pass straight through as if it's not there.
Recliner
2020-05-19 14:13:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Roland Perry
She's got the wrong end of the stick. You should tell her they are to
protect the rest of the world from the wearer, not the other way round.
Then it becomes clear.
But they don't do that either. Touching and fiddling with them
contaminates your hands, you then touch stuff, they are a waste of time
and she has not got the wrong end of the stick at all.
I have seen people wearing the exact same type of paper masks worn by
surgeons, they are, and I repeat, useless for any task in the public arena.
You carry on believing what you want, and so will I. When you show me
your medical qualifications and your expertise in disease control, I
might, just might, take notice of you.
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
Sammi Gray-Jones
2020-05-19 14:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
They are a placebo, pure and simple, there to *make* the wearer think
that they are safer.
Basil Jet
2020-05-19 15:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sammi Gray-Jones
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
They are a placebo, pure and simple, there to *make* the wearer think
that they are safer.
Of course masks make you safer. A mask over your mouth and nose isn't
going to save you if you are a nurse with people coofing into your
eyeball all day long, but if I'm in a supermarket and a virus floats
along and lands on my mask instead of my lips, it saved me and my family
from dying.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Jon Hassell - 1999 - Fascinoma
MissRiaElaine
2020-05-19 20:09:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Sammi Gray-Jones
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
They are a placebo, pure and simple, there to *make* the wearer think
that they are safer.
Of course masks make you safer. A mask over your mouth and nose isn't
going to save you if you are a nurse with people coofing into your
eyeball all day long, but if I'm in a supermarket and a virus floats
along and lands on my mask instead of my lips, it saved me and my family
from dying.
We give up. You carry on believing that. We're following the advice
given to us by a medical professional who we know and trust. You follow
what the media says and may your God go with you.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Recliner
2020-05-19 20:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Sammi Gray-Jones
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
They are a placebo, pure and simple, there to *make* the wearer think
that they are safer.
Of course masks make you safer. A mask over your mouth and nose isn't
going to save you if you are a nurse with people coofing into your
eyeball all day long, but if I'm in a supermarket and a virus floats
along and lands on my mask instead of my lips, it saved me and my family
from dying.
We give up. You carry on believing that. We're following the advice
given to us by a medical professional who we know and trust. You follow
what the media says and may your God go with you.
That isn't what the media says. Nobody claims that flimsy masks for the
supermarket protect the wearers — they simply provide a modest degree of
protection to others, if the wearer is an asymptomatic carrier. If wearers
nevertheless choose to believe they're self-protecting, it's up to them.

One thing I don't know is how much of a dose you need to get before you're
at any risk of catching the virus. If you're healthy and breathe in a stray
droplet, that's not enough. Indeed, I wonder if getting such weak doses
isn't actually sensible, as it amounts to a vaccine. It's now being said
that having a cold is a protection, as the body develops antibodies to a
different coronavirus which trains it to combat SARS-CoV2.
MissRiaElaine
2020-05-19 21:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Sammi Gray-Jones
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
They are a placebo, pure and simple, there to *make* the wearer think
that they are safer.
Of course masks make you safer. A mask over your mouth and nose isn't
going to save you if you are a nurse with people coofing into your
eyeball all day long, but if I'm in a supermarket and a virus floats
along and lands on my mask instead of my lips, it saved me and my family
from dying.
We give up. You carry on believing that. We're following the advice
given to us by a medical professional who we know and trust. You follow
what the media says and may your God go with you.
That isn't what the media says. Nobody claims that flimsy masks for the
supermarket protect the wearers — they simply provide a modest degree of
protection to others, if the wearer is an asymptomatic carrier. If wearers
nevertheless choose to believe they're self-protecting, it's up to them.
One thing I don't know is how much of a dose you need to get before you're
at any risk of catching the virus. If you're healthy and breathe in a stray
droplet, that's not enough. Indeed, I wonder if getting such weak doses
isn't actually sensible, as it amounts to a vaccine. It's now being said
that having a cold is a protection, as the body develops antibodies to a
different coronavirus which trains it to combat SARS-CoV2.
I'd still like to see your medical qualifications. If you don't have
any, shut up, you're as bad as the idiots wandering around my local
Morrisons.

I'm out of here.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Recliner
2020-05-19 21:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Sammi Gray-Jones
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
They are a placebo, pure and simple, there to *make* the wearer think
that they are safer.
Of course masks make you safer. A mask over your mouth and nose isn't
going to save you if you are a nurse with people coofing into your
eyeball all day long, but if I'm in a supermarket and a virus floats
along and lands on my mask instead of my lips, it saved me and my family
from dying.
We give up. You carry on believing that. We're following the advice
given to us by a medical professional who we know and trust. You follow
what the media says and may your God go with you.
That isn't what the media says. Nobody claims that flimsy masks for the
supermarket protect the wearers — they simply provide a modest degree of
protection to others, if the wearer is an asymptomatic carrier. If wearers
nevertheless choose to believe they're self-protecting, it's up to them.
One thing I don't know is how much of a dose you need to get before you're
at any risk of catching the virus. If you're healthy and breathe in a stray
droplet, that's not enough. Indeed, I wonder if getting such weak doses
isn't actually sensible, as it amounts to a vaccine. It's now being said
that having a cold is a protection, as the body develops antibodies to a
different coronavirus which trains it to combat SARS-CoV2.
I'd still like to see your medical qualifications. If you don't have
any, shut up, you're as bad as the idiots wandering around my local
Morrisons.
How many medical qualifications did you need to be a bus driver? And which
of my remarks do you feel don't come up to your standards of scientific
rigour?
Post by MissRiaElaine
I'm out of here.
You've been out of London for a long time.
Roland Perry
2020-05-20 05:18:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
I'd still like to see your medical qualifications.
It's actually more of an engineering (& material) qualification that's
needed; also English Comprehension, to be able to understand the
official advice.
Post by MissRiaElaine
If you don't have any, shut up, you're as bad as the idiots wandering
around my local Morrisons.
Understanding how PPE (or even not-really-PPE) works is almost
completely disjoint from being able to dish out the correct amount of
medication.
--
Roland Perry
tim...
2020-05-20 09:23:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Sammi Gray-Jones
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
They are a placebo, pure and simple, there to *make* the wearer think
that they are safer.
Of course masks make you safer. A mask over your mouth and nose isn't
going to save you if you are a nurse with people coofing into your
eyeball all day long, but if I'm in a supermarket and a virus floats
along and lands on my mask instead of my lips, it saved me and my family
from dying.
We give up. You carry on believing that. We're following the advice given
to us by a medical professional who we know and trust. You follow what the
media says and may your God go with you.
what advice is that

to wear medical grade PPE

or a cloth mask that can be bought from Amazon (or wherever)

tim
--
Ria in Aberdeen
[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Basil Jet
2020-05-20 10:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Sammi Gray-Jones
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
They are a placebo, pure and simple, there to *make* the wearer think
that they are safer.
Of course masks make you safer. A mask over your mouth and nose isn't
going to save you if you are a nurse with people coofing into your
eyeball all day long, but if I'm in a supermarket and a virus floats
along and lands on my mask instead of my lips, it saved me and my
family from dying.
We give up. You carry on believing that. We're following the advice
given to us by a medical professional who we know and trust. You follow
what the media says and may your God go with you.
The medical profession wants to keep the cost of buying their own PPE
down by reducing the public competing for it and driving prices up, so
they are hardly unbiased. It is obvious that wearing a mask makes the
wearer safer.. it would defy the laws of physics if it didn't, so you
throwing your toys out of the pram is not enough to make me change my mind.
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
The Greg Foat Group - 2012 - Girl And Robot With Flowers
Clive D.W. Feather
2020-05-28 20:37:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
It is obvious that wearing a mask makes the
wearer safer.. it would defy the laws of physics if it didn't,
Rubbish.

Assuming it's the typical mask that the public buys, the virus sticks to
the outside of the mask and then has time to migrate in. But it doesn't
fly off after it's migrated out. Which is why it protects others but not
you.

(My source is a senior researcher on influenza and Covid-19 at the CDC
in Atlanta. I'll believe him any day.)
--
Clive D.W. Feather
Recliner
2020-05-28 21:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by Basil Jet
It is obvious that wearing a mask makes the
wearer safer.. it would defy the laws of physics if it didn't,
Rubbish.
Assuming it's the typical mask that the public buys, the virus sticks to
the outside of the mask and then has time to migrate in. But it doesn't
fly off after it's migrated out. Which is why it protects others but not
you.
(My source is a senior researcher on influenza and Covid-19 at the CDC
in Atlanta. I'll believe him any day.)
Yes, that makes sense. I think cheap masks also don't fit well enough to
protect the wearer.
Basil Jet
2020-05-29 16:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by Basil Jet
It is obvious that wearing a mask makes the
wearer safer.. it would defy the laws of physics if it didn't,
Rubbish.
Assuming it's the typical mask that the public buys, the virus sticks to
the outside of the mask and then has time to migrate in. But it doesn't
fly off after it's migrated out. Which is why it protects others but not
you.
(My source is a senior researcher on influenza and Covid-19 at the CDC
in Atlanta. I'll believe him any day.)
Do you really believe that a single virus landing on the outside of a
mask has a 100% chance of migrating in and infecting the wearer, so
there is 0% chance that the mask could save the wearer?
--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Blue Aeroplanes - Fruit (Live 1983-1995)
Clive D.W. Feather
2020-06-03 14:58:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Post by Basil Jet
It is obvious that wearing a mask makes the
wearer safer.. it would defy the laws of physics if it didn't,
Rubbish.
Assuming it's the typical mask that the public buys, the virus sticks to
the outside of the mask and then has time to migrate in. But it doesn't
fly off after it's migrated out. Which is why it protects others but not
you.
(My source is a senior researcher on influenza and Covid-19 at the CDC
in Atlanta. I'll believe him any day.)
Do you really believe that a single virus landing on the outside of a
mask has a 100% chance of migrating in and infecting the wearer, so
there is 0% chance that the mask could save the wearer?
I didn't say that. But it's almost certainly not a single virus
instance. Yes, a mask might reduce your risk by 0.001%, but that's not
what the person on the Croydon tram would call "safer".
--
Clive D.W. Feather
Roland Perry
2020-05-19 15:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sammi Gray-Jones
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
They are a placebo, pure and simple, there to *make* the wearer think
that they are safer.
Rinse and repeat. They don't make the *wearer* safer.
--
Roland Perry
MissRiaElaine
2020-05-19 20:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sammi Gray-Jones
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
They are a placebo, pure and simple, there to *make* the wearer think
that they are safer.
Rinse and repeat. They don't make the *wearer* safer.
But they make them *think* they're safer.
--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]
Recliner
2020-05-19 20:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sammi Gray-Jones
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
They are a placebo, pure and simple, there to *make* the wearer think
that they are safer.
Rinse and repeat. They don't make the *wearer* safer.
But they make them *think* they're safer.
The government and its experts have never claimed that, and nor does the
media. It's always been made clear that simple masks for the general public
are worn to protect others, not the wearer. If some people nevertheless
choose to believe it, they're deluding themselves.

After all, plenty of people still take homeopathic 'medicines', which are
even less useful than a flimsy mask (but more expensive). Lots of people
take high dose vitamin tablets, which are of little or no benefit, and may
even be harmful.
tim...
2020-05-20 09:25:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Sammi Gray-Jones
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
They are a placebo, pure and simple, there to *make* the wearer think
that they are safer.
Rinse and repeat. They don't make the *wearer* safer.
But they make them *think* they're safer.
well that's worse then, isn't it!

Wearers take greater risks, they are more likely to catch the disease
because of the risks, they then place more other people at risk than
otherwise would have been the case

tim
Arthur Conan Doyle
2020-05-20 00:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
To reassure the lemmings that their government is "doing something."
Recliner
2020-05-20 01:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Conan Doyle
Post by Recliner
So what purpose do you think the masks worn by the public are meant to
serve?
To reassure the lemmings that their government is "doing something."
Hardly.

Unlike in most other countries, masks are neither supplied not mandatory
for the public in the UK. The government has always made clear that they
were of no benefit to the wearer, and of limited benefit to others. It's
always insisted that medical grade PPE was reserved for health care
professionals, not the public.

In this respect at least, the government has been unusually honest, clear
and right.
Roland Perry
2020-05-20 05:29:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Unlike in most other countries, masks are neither supplied not mandatory
for the public in the UK. The government has always made clear that they
were of no benefit to the wearer, and of limited benefit to others. It's
always insisted that medical grade PPE was reserved for health care
professionals, not the public.
I think they are issuing FFP3 masks to essential public sector workers,
who aren't strictly speaking "health care professionals".

And the funny thing is, those disposable 'surgical masks' we presume are
arriving on P2F's may not even be FFP2.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2020-05-19 14:49:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Roland Perry
She's got the wrong end of the stick. You should tell her they are to
protect the rest of the world from the wearer, not the other way
round. Then it becomes clear.
But they don't do that either. Touching and fiddling with them
contaminates your hands, you then touch stuff, they are a waste of time
and she has not got the wrong end of the stick at all.
It's to stop coughs and sneezes, spreading diseases.

[Now where's that a quote from?]

And frankly much more user-friendly than sneezing into your elbow (which
is the NHS's latest advice).
--
Roland Perry
Ian Jackson
2020-05-19 15:39:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by MissRiaElaine
Post by Recliner
Masks worn by the public are NOT meant to protect the wearer.
They're not PPE, and they don't perform the same function as the
gear that operating theatre staff wear to protect themselves from
infection. So your ohs's comments are irrelevant in this context.
The masks that the public may choose to wear on the bus, train,
plane or shop sole purpose is to protect *other* people from the
wearer's saliva, should they be infected. So it doesn't matter in
the slightest if they don or remove them properly, and they don't
need to wash them at 60°C. The masks don't need to fit perfectly,
just well enough to stop droplets of the wearer's saliva from being
sprayed around. Without a mask, a sneeze,loud conversation or cough
can spray droplets for several metres, and they'll linger in the
air; with a mask, even a home-made, two-layer, crude one, the
droplets won't get very far. And that's the only reason to wear one.
Just remember, when you wear a mask, you're saving other people from
contamination by *you*, not protecting yourself.
I'd still rather believe her than you.
She's got the wrong end of the stick. You should tell her they are to
protect the rest of the world from the wearer, not the other way round.
Then it becomes clear.
It's amazing how many people still don't 'get' this simple fact
(including some of the scientific 'experts' who are advising the
government).
--
Ian
Roland Perry
2020-05-19 15:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Roland Perry
She's got the wrong end of the stick. You should tell her they are to
protect the rest of the world from the wearer, not the other way
round. Then it becomes clear.
It's amazing how many people still don't 'get' this simple fact
(including some of the scientific 'experts' who are advising the
government).
Not a good precedent for people who claim the public have sufficient
common sense to decide whether it's sensible to drive 100 miles to take
the dog for a walk.
--
Roland Perry
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-19 08:02:22 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 May 2020 22:48:56 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Masks worn by the public are NOT meant to protect the wearer. They're not
Tell that to all the paranoids wearing them**. 9/10 probably don't have a clue
and 99/100 probably don't realise the virus can easily get into you through
the tear ducks in your eyes just like a common cold so unless they wear a full
face mask they're wasting their time.

** Usually the same morons who cross the street when they see someone coming
to maintain the fatuous 2m distance.
Recliner
2020-05-19 08:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Mon, 18 May 2020 22:48:56 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Masks worn by the public are NOT meant to protect the wearer. They're not
Tell that to all the paranoids wearing them**. 9/10 probably don't have a clue
and 99/100 probably don't realise the virus can easily get into you through
the tear ducks in your eyes just like a common cold so unless they wear a full
face mask they're wasting their time.
** Usually the same morons who cross the street when they see someone coming
to maintain the fatuous 2m distance.
Yes, I think you're right, most members of the public wearing masks
probably still think they're protecting themselves, rather than others. In
shops, I've only noticed staff wearing protective face shields in Waitrose,
and not all staff do.

The 2m thing is like a religious prohibition: vaguely based on a sensible
idea, but implemented thoughtlessly and inflexibly. In reality, people
facing each other and conversing indoors (eg, in a meeting or on a Tube
train) probably need nearer to 3m separation to get much protection, while
people queuing outdoors (face to back) and not chatting loudly need very
little separation for protection — 1m is probably enough.

In London, the chances of a susceptible person meeting an infectious one is
now very small, and the infection won't be passed if they just walk past
each other, or queue behind one another. It appears that most infections
were passed on at 'superspreader events', not casual outdoor encounters:

<https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/superspreader-events-may-responsible-80-percent-coronavirus/>

A small number of so-called “superspreading” events appear to be
responsible for the great majority of coronavirus cases, raising the
prospect of the virus being controlled if those events can be reliably
pinned down.

Many infectious diseases follow an “20/80” rule, whereby the majority of
cases are caused by a small number of infectious individuals. These include
pathogens such as HIV, measles and Ebola, as well as the coronaviruses Mers
and Sars.

As the journal Nature noted recently, “population estimates of R0 can
obscure considerable individual variation in infectiousness”.

This is now thought to be the case with Covid-19.

An analysis by researchers at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical
Medicine and the Alan Turing Institute strongly suggests there is a “high
degree of individual-level variation” in the transmission of Covid-19.

By applying a mathematical model to reported outbreaks of the disease
outside China, they estimated that 80 per cent of all secondary
transmissions were caused by a small fraction of infected individuals -
around 10 percent.

“Our finding of a highly-overdispersed offspring distribution highlights a
potential benefit to focusing intervention efforts on superspreading”, the
study concluded.

“As most infected individuals do not contribute to the expansion of an
epidemic, the effective reproduction number could be drastically reduced by
preventing relatively rare superspreading events”.

The race is now on to pinpoint and characterise these “superspreader”
events. If we know where the trouble lies we can let the rest of society
open up again.

Tempting though it may be, most experts say we should not look for
individuals. Superspreading events are determined by a complex mix of
behavioural and environmental factors.

Even sexually transmitted viruses like HIV tend to be “superspread” more by
things like needle sharing and prostitution than individuals. Funerals were
a major problem in the 2014-16 Ebola outbreak in West Africa.

With Sars-Cov-2, it seems likely any infected individual could become a
superspreader. Who we are is likely to be less important than where we go
and what we do when we are there.

Already, many superspreading venues are known. Hospitals, nursing homes,
large dormitories, food processing plans and food markets have all been
associated with major outbreaks of Covid-19.

Last week it was reported that four out of five traders (79 per cent) at
Lima’s wholesale fruit market in Peru have tested positive for coronavirus,
for example. In other large markets across the city at least half were
found to be carrying the virus.

Indoor gyms and exercise studios also appear to lend themselves to
superspreading events. A new South Korean study found that 112 people were
infected over 24 days after attending “dance classes set to Latin rhythms”
at 12 indoor sports facilities.

“Intense physical exercise in densely populated sports facilities could
increase risk for infection”, said the authors. “Vigorous exercise in
confined spaces should be minimised during outbreaks”.

Just over half of the cases were the result of transmission from
instructors to those attending the dance classes and the overall attack
rate was a high 26.3 percent.

Characteristics that may have led to the outbreak included “large class
sizes, small spaces, and the intensity of the workouts”, said the study.

“The moist, warm atmosphere in a sports facility coupled with turbulent air
flow generated by intense physical exercise can cause more dense
transmission of isolated droplets”, it noted.

The researchers did not find any cases where classes were limited to five
people or less. Also, pilates and yoga appeared to pose a lesser risk than
dance.

“We hypothesise that the lower intensity of pilates and yoga did not cause
the same transmission effects as those of the more intense fitness dance
classes,” said the authors.

But you don’t have to be dancing to be exhaling vigorously while in the
close contact of others.

In Washington State on the west coast of America, a church choir went ahead
with its weekly rehearsal in early March even as Covid-19 was sweeping
through Seattle, an hour to the south. Dozens of its members went on to
catch the virus and two died.

The Washington singers were not the only choristers to be hit. Fifty
members of the Berlin Cathedral Choir contracted the virus after a March
rehearsal, and in England many members of the Voices of Yorkshire choir
came down with a Covid-like disease earlier this year.

A choir in Amsterdam also fell victim to the virus, with 102 of its 130
members becoming infected after a performance. One died, as did three of
the chorister's partners.

Research suggests it is not the singing alone that causes the spread of the
virus but the close contact that goes with it.

“These outbreaks among choir members all occurred during the early days of
the Covid-19 pandemic, before lockdowns were imposed and before our minds
were concentrated on the importance of social distancing”, Professor
Christian Kähler of the Military University, Munich, told the Guardian
newspaper.

“Choir members probably greeted each other with hugs, and shared drinks
during breaks and talked closely with each other. That social behaviour was
the real cause of these outbreaks, I believe.”

One of the biggest superspreading events in Europe came in the February
half term holidays when thousands of people gathered in alpine ski resorts.


Hundreds of infections in Germany, Iceland, Norway, Denmark and Britain
have been traced back to the resort of Ischgl in the Tyrolean Alps. Many
had visited the Kitzloch, a bar known for its après-ski parties.

The bar is tightly packed and famous for "beer pong" – a drinking game in
which revellers take turns to spit the same ping-pong ball into a beer
glass.

Earlier this year The Telegraph obtained a video from inside the Kitzloch.
It may yet come to define the perfect superspreader event, with attendees
all singing along to AC/DC’s Highway to Hell:
<video>

In London, cases of coronavirus have dropped dramatically since the
lockdown. The superspreading events that were once spreading the virus so
widely have now stopped.

The challenge now facing investigators is to work out what they were in the
first place.
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-19 09:45:14 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 May 2020 08:25:34 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
The 2m thing is like a religious prohibition: vaguely based on a sensible
I hadn't thought of it like that, but it certainly matches peoples behaviour.
Wierdly - assuming my local supermarket is typical - that behaviour is
forgotten in the aisles. Presumably because its almost impossible to observe.
Post by Recliner
Tempting though it may be, most experts say we should not look for
individuals. Superspreading events are determined by a complex mix of
behavioural and environmental factors.
I wonder if its complex in reality. I imagine its the sort of people who wipe
their nose with their fingers then go and then go and touch a dozen items in
every shop they visit and hardly buy any of them just leaving them on the
shelves nicely infected. Ditto when they touch the handles in buses and trains.
Post by Recliner
In London, cases of coronavirus have dropped dramatically since the
lockdown. The superspreading events that were once spreading the virus so
widely have now stopped.
I doubt they've stopped , far more likely IMO is that a significant proportion
of the population have caught the virus without knowing it and are now immune.
Roland Perry
2020-05-19 10:54:25 UTC
Permalink
the sort of people who wipe their nose with their fingers then go and
then go and touch a dozen items in every shop they visit and hardly buy
any of them just leaving them on the shelves nicely infected.
Some stores have tried a "touch it, you buy it" policy. I don't know how
successfully. But it's what I've been voluntarily doing the last month
or two.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2020-05-19 12:00:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
the sort of people who wipe their nose with their fingers then go and
then go and touch a dozen items in every shop they visit and hardly buy
any of them just leaving them on the shelves nicely infected.
Some stores have tried a "touch it, you buy it" policy. I don't know how
successfully. But it's what I've been voluntarily doing the last month
or two.
I see that the clothes shops that are reopening elsewhere in Europe
don't put clothes straight back on the rack if they've been tried on,
but put them in a sanitisation room. It's not clear if they actually
do anything there, or just leave them for a few hours.
Recliner
2020-05-19 11:57:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Tue, 19 May 2020 08:25:34 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
The 2m thing is like a religious prohibition: vaguely based on a sensible
I hadn't thought of it like that, but it certainly matches peoples behaviour.
Wierdly - assuming my local supermarket is typical - that behaviour is
forgotten in the aisles. Presumably because its almost impossible to observe.
Post by Recliner
Tempting though it may be, most experts say we should not look for
individuals. Superspreading events are determined by a complex mix of
behavioural and environmental factors.
I wonder if its complex in reality. I imagine its the sort of people who wipe
their nose with their fingers then go and then go and touch a dozen items in
every shop they visit and hardly buy any of them just leaving them on the
shelves nicely infected. Ditto when they touch the handles in buses and trains.
Post by Recliner
In London, cases of coronavirus have dropped dramatically since the
lockdown. The superspreading events that were once spreading the virus so
widely have now stopped.
I doubt they've stopped , far more likely IMO is that a significant proportion
of the population have caught the virus without knowing it and are now immune.
I think it's true that in London, most of the mobile population is now
either immune of not susceptible to the disease. I was in Waitrose
today, and everyone seemed more relaxed. Few of the staff were
bothering to wear the face shields they're supplied with, there was no
special sanitising of the trolley handles, and people got quite close
to each other in the aisles. There was also almost no queue to get in.

The few people with or susceptible to the disease in London are in
care homes or hospitals, and the task now is to stop it getting back
into the wider population.
tim...
2020-05-19 16:27:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Tue, 19 May 2020 08:25:34 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
The 2m thing is like a religious prohibition: vaguely based on a sensible
I hadn't thought of it like that, but it certainly matches peoples behaviour.
Wierdly - assuming my local supermarket is typical - that behaviour is
forgotten in the aisles. Presumably because its almost impossible to observe.
Post by Recliner
Tempting though it may be, most experts say we should not look for
individuals. Superspreading events are determined by a complex mix of
behavioural and environmental factors.
I wonder if its complex in reality. I imagine its the sort of people who wipe
their nose with their fingers then go and then go and touch a dozen items in
every shop they visit and hardly buy any of them just leaving them on the
shelves nicely infected. Ditto when they touch the handles in buses and trains.
Post by Recliner
In London, cases of coronavirus have dropped dramatically since the
lockdown. The superspreading events that were once spreading the virus so
widely have now stopped.
I doubt they've stopped , far more likely IMO is that a significant proportion
of the population have caught the virus without knowing it and are now immune.
I think it's true that in London, most of the mobile population is now
either immune of not susceptible to the disease. I was in Waitrose
today, and everyone seemed more relaxed. Few of the staff were
bothering to wear the face shields they're supplied with, there was no
special sanitising of the trolley handles, and people got quite close
to each other in the aisles. There was also almost no queue to get in.
The few people with or susceptible to the disease in London are in
care homes or hospitals, and the task now is to stop it getting back
into the wider population.
though we are still getting 3,500 new cases every day

rather a lot, now that those infect before lockdown have long entered the
count

We really ought to be on much lower numbers than this

like Spain an Italy (with similar total cases) are
Recliner
2020-05-19 19:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Tue, 19 May 2020 08:25:34 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
The 2m thing is like a religious prohibition: vaguely based on a sensible
I hadn't thought of it like that, but it certainly matches peoples behaviour.
Wierdly - assuming my local supermarket is typical - that behaviour is
forgotten in the aisles. Presumably because its almost impossible to observe.
Post by Recliner
Tempting though it may be, most experts say we should not look for
individuals. Superspreading events are determined by a complex mix of
behavioural and environmental factors.
I wonder if its complex in reality. I imagine its the sort of people who wipe
their nose with their fingers then go and then go and touch a dozen items in
every shop they visit and hardly buy any of them just leaving them on the
shelves nicely infected. Ditto when they touch the handles in buses and trains.
Post by Recliner
In London, cases of coronavirus have dropped dramatically since the
lockdown. The superspreading events that were once spreading the virus so
widely have now stopped.
I doubt they've stopped , far more likely IMO is that a significant proportion
of the population have caught the virus without knowing it and are now immune.
I think it's true that in London, most of the mobile population is now
either immune of not susceptible to the disease. I was in Waitrose
today, and everyone seemed more relaxed. Few of the staff were
bothering to wear the face shields they're supplied with, there was no
special sanitising of the trolley handles, and people got quite close
to each other in the aisles. There was also almost no queue to get in.
The few people with or susceptible to the disease in London are in
care homes or hospitals, and the task now is to stop it getting back
into the wider population.
though we are still getting 3,500 new cases every day
You're out by three orders of magnitude. The number of new cases a day in
London is probably now in single figures:

<https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/14/london-has-just-24-new-coronavirus-cases-day/>

This is from five days ago, so the rate of new cases in London now is
likely below 10. The virus has burned out in London.

The northeast and Scotland are some weeks behind.
tim...
2020-05-20 09:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Tue, 19 May 2020 08:25:34 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
The 2m thing is like a religious prohibition: vaguely based on a sensible
I hadn't thought of it like that, but it certainly matches peoples behaviour.
Wierdly - assuming my local supermarket is typical - that behaviour is
forgotten in the aisles. Presumably because its almost impossible to observe.
Post by Recliner
Tempting though it may be, most experts say we should not look for
individuals. Superspreading events are determined by a complex mix of
behavioural and environmental factors.
I wonder if its complex in reality. I imagine its the sort of people
who
wipe
their nose with their fingers then go and then go and touch a dozen
items
in
every shop they visit and hardly buy any of them just leaving them on the
shelves nicely infected. Ditto when they touch the handles in buses and trains.
Post by Recliner
In London, cases of coronavirus have dropped dramatically since the
lockdown. The superspreading events that were once spreading the virus so
widely have now stopped.
I doubt they've stopped , far more likely IMO is that a significant proportion
of the population have caught the virus without knowing it and are now immune.
I think it's true that in London, most of the mobile population is now
either immune of not susceptible to the disease. I was in Waitrose
today, and everyone seemed more relaxed. Few of the staff were
bothering to wear the face shields they're supplied with, there was no
special sanitising of the trolley handles, and people got quite close
to each other in the aisles. There was also almost no queue to get in.
The few people with or susceptible to the disease in London are in
care homes or hospitals, and the task now is to stop it getting back
into the wider population.
though we are still getting 3,500 new cases every day
You're out by three orders of magnitude. The number of new cases a day in
I mean in the whole country, and it's not the quantum that's the problem,
it's the fact that it has barely moved downwards from the peak, after 6
weeks of Lockdown (AIH it did yesterday)

I've argued before that a regional change in the rules is unfair and
unworkable, so the London number alone is IMHO not relevant

tim
Recliner
2020-05-20 09:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Tue, 19 May 2020 08:25:34 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
The 2m thing is like a religious prohibition: vaguely based on a sensible
I hadn't thought of it like that, but it certainly matches peoples behaviour.
Wierdly - assuming my local supermarket is typical - that behaviour is
forgotten in the aisles. Presumably because its almost impossible to observe.
Post by Recliner
Tempting though it may be, most experts say we should not look for
individuals. Superspreading events are determined by a complex mix of
behavioural and environmental factors.
I wonder if its complex in reality. I imagine its the sort of people
who
wipe
their nose with their fingers then go and then go and touch a dozen
items
in
every shop they visit and hardly buy any of them just leaving them on the
shelves nicely infected. Ditto when they touch the handles in buses and trains.
Post by Recliner
In London, cases of coronavirus have dropped dramatically since the
lockdown. The superspreading events that were once spreading the virus so
widely have now stopped.
I doubt they've stopped , far more likely IMO is that a significant proportion
of the population have caught the virus without knowing it and are now immune.
I think it's true that in London, most of the mobile population is now
either immune of not susceptible to the disease. I was in Waitrose
today, and everyone seemed more relaxed. Few of the staff were
bothering to wear the face shields they're supplied with, there was no
special sanitising of the trolley handles, and people got quite close
to each other in the aisles. There was also almost no queue to get in.
The few people with or susceptible to the disease in London are in
care homes or hospitals, and the task now is to stop it getting back
into the wider population.
though we are still getting 3,500 new cases every day
You're out by three orders of magnitude. The number of new cases a day in
I mean in the whole country, and it's not the quantum that's the problem,
it's the fact that it has barely moved downwards from the peak, after 6
weeks of Lockdown (AIH it did yesterday)
I've argued before that a regional change in the rules is unfair and
unworkable, so the London number alone is IMHO not relevant
We already have regional variations in the rules, and will see more as
schools start going back. It's not only fair and workable, but is
inevitable.

The virus arrived first in London, which you might regard as unsporting
behaviour on its part, but nobody told it your rules. It had longer to
spread in London before the lockdown started, so London got hit harder and
earlier than anywhere else. It had a higher peak of excess deaths, and then
an earlier decline in new cases. The virus has now almost burned out in
London, but not in the north of England or Scotland, which are a few weeks
behind on the curve.

In fact, their curve was more squashed than London's, so they may need a
significantly longer total period of lockdown before the virus runs its
course. Remember, the lockdown isn't a cure; it's just a way of prolonging
the agony, and only justified to avoid overloading the NHS, which it did
very successfully, even in London.
Arthur Conan Doyle
2020-05-20 12:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Remember, the lockdown isn't a cure; it's just a way of prolonging
the agony, and only justified to avoid overloading the NHS, which it did
very successfully, even in London.
Exactly. Squeezing the balloon does not deflate the balloon.
Recliner
2020-05-20 16:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Tue, 19 May 2020 08:25:34 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
The 2m thing is like a religious prohibition: vaguely based on a sensible
I hadn't thought of it like that, but it certainly matches peoples behaviour.
Wierdly - assuming my local supermarket is typical - that behaviour is
forgotten in the aisles. Presumably because its almost impossible to observe.
Post by Recliner
Tempting though it may be, most experts say we should not look for
individuals. Superspreading events are determined by a complex mix of
behavioural and environmental factors.
I wonder if its complex in reality. I imagine its the sort of people
who
wipe
their nose with their fingers then go and then go and touch a dozen
items
in
every shop they visit and hardly buy any of them just leaving them on the
shelves nicely infected. Ditto when they touch the handles in buses and trains.
Post by Recliner
In London, cases of coronavirus have dropped dramatically since the
lockdown. The superspreading events that were once spreading the virus so
widely have now stopped.
I doubt they've stopped , far more likely IMO is that a significant proportion
of the population have caught the virus without knowing it and are now immune.
I think it's true that in London, most of the mobile population is now
either immune of not susceptible to the disease. I was in Waitrose
today, and everyone seemed more relaxed. Few of the staff were
bothering to wear the face shields they're supplied with, there was no
special sanitising of the trolley handles, and people got quite close
to each other in the aisles. There was also almost no queue to get in.
The few people with or susceptible to the disease in London are in
care homes or hospitals, and the task now is to stop it getting back
into the wider population.
though we are still getting 3,500 new cases every day
You're out by three orders of magnitude. The number of new cases a day in
I mean in the whole country, and it's not the quantum that's the problem,
it's the fact that it has barely moved downwards from the peak, after 6
weeks of Lockdown (AIH it did yesterday)
I've argued before that a regional change in the rules is unfair and
unworkable, so the London number alone is IMHO not relevant
We already have regional variations in the rules, and will see more as
schools start going back. It's not only fair and workable, but is
inevitable.
The virus arrived first in London, which you might regard as unsporting
behaviour on its part, but nobody told it your rules. It had longer to
spread in London before the lockdown started, so London got hit harder and
earlier than anywhere else. It had a higher peak of excess deaths, and then
an earlier decline in new cases. The virus has now almost burned out in
London, but not in the north of England or Scotland, which are a few weeks
behind on the curve.
In fact, their curve was more squashed than London's, so they may need a
significantly longer total period of lockdown before the virus runs its
course. Remember, the lockdown isn't a cure; it's just a way of prolonging
the agony, and only justified to avoid overloading the NHS, which it did
very successfully, even in London.
Follow-up:

The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
period:

<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-phe-a4446336.html>
tim...
2020-05-21 08:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Tue, 19 May 2020 08:25:34 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
The 2m thing is like a religious prohibition: vaguely based on a sensible
I hadn't thought of it like that, but it certainly matches peoples behaviour.
Wierdly - assuming my local supermarket is typical - that behaviour is
forgotten in the aisles. Presumably because its almost impossible to observe.
Post by Recliner
Tempting though it may be, most experts say we should not look for
individuals. Superspreading events are determined by a complex mix of
behavioural and environmental factors.
I wonder if its complex in reality. I imagine its the sort of people
who
wipe
their nose with their fingers then go and then go and touch a dozen
items
in
every shop they visit and hardly buy any of them just leaving them
on
the
shelves nicely infected. Ditto when they touch the handles in buses
and
trains.
Post by Recliner
In London, cases of coronavirus have dropped dramatically since the
lockdown. The superspreading events that were once spreading the
virus
so
widely have now stopped.
I doubt they've stopped , far more likely IMO is that a significant proportion
of the population have caught the virus without knowing it and are
now
immune.
I think it's true that in London, most of the mobile population is now
either immune of not susceptible to the disease. I was in Waitrose
today, and everyone seemed more relaxed. Few of the staff were
bothering to wear the face shields they're supplied with, there was no
special sanitising of the trolley handles, and people got quite close
to each other in the aisles. There was also almost no queue to get in.
The few people with or susceptible to the disease in London are in
care homes or hospitals, and the task now is to stop it getting back
into the wider population.
though we are still getting 3,500 new cases every day
You're out by three orders of magnitude. The number of new cases a day in
I mean in the whole country, and it's not the quantum that's the problem,
it's the fact that it has barely moved downwards from the peak, after 6
weeks of Lockdown (AIH it did yesterday)
I've argued before that a regional change in the rules is unfair and
unworkable, so the London number alone is IMHO not relevant
We already have regional variations in the rules, and will see more as
schools start going back. It's not only fair and workable, but is
inevitable.
The virus arrived first in London, which you might regard as unsporting
behaviour on its part, but nobody told it your rules. It had longer to
spread in London before the lockdown started, so London got hit harder and
earlier than anywhere else. It had a higher peak of excess deaths, and then
an earlier decline in new cases. The virus has now almost burned out in
London, but not in the north of England or Scotland, which are a few weeks
behind on the curve.
In fact, their curve was more squashed than London's, so they may need a
significantly longer total period of lockdown before the virus runs its
course. Remember, the lockdown isn't a cure; it's just a way of prolonging
the agony, and only justified to avoid overloading the NHS, which it did
very successfully, even in London.
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-phe-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-variation-easing-lockdown-covid/


tim
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-21 09:01:20 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
Recliner
2020-05-21 09:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
He's changed a lot since his near-death experience. He was previously a
gung-ho risk-taker, but is now a timid, cautious character, at least in
this respect. Being a new father (yet again) probably also makes him a lot
more cautious.
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-22 08:42:07 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:55:52 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
He's changed a lot since his near-death experience. He was previously a
gung-ho risk-taker, but is now a timid, cautious character, at least in
this respect. Being a new father (yet again) probably also makes him a lot
more cautious.
Thats probably true, but he needs to snap out of it and realise the policies
are now doing far more damage than the virus. There was some (probably
exaggerated) figure of 7 million doctor and hospital appointments backlog.
Even if its only 1 million thats a lot of people with potentially serious
problems not having them sorted. And god knows how many cancer patients are
or will soon be dead due to the NHS focusing on covid.
Graeme Wall
2020-05-22 10:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:55:52 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
He's changed a lot since his near-death experience. He was previously a
gung-ho risk-taker, but is now a timid, cautious character, at least in
this respect. Being a new father (yet again) probably also makes him a lot
more cautious.
Thats probably true, but he needs to snap out of it and realise the policies
are now doing far more damage than the virus. There was some (probably
exaggerated) figure of 7 million doctor and hospital appointments backlog.
Even if its only 1 million thats a lot of people with potentially serious
problems not having them sorted. And god knows how many cancer patients are
or will soon be dead due to the NHS focusing on covid.
Interestingly I've just had three reinstated appointments this week.
Mind you they are for November!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
tim...
2020-05-22 17:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:55:52 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
He's changed a lot since his near-death experience. He was previously a
gung-ho risk-taker, but is now a timid, cautious character, at least in
this respect. Being a new father (yet again) probably also makes him a lot
more cautious.
Thats probably true, but he needs to snap out of it and realise the policies
are now doing far more damage than the virus. There was some (probably
exaggerated) figure of 7 million doctor and hospital appointments backlog.
Even if its only 1 million thats a lot of people with potentially serious
problems not having them sorted. And god knows how many cancer patients are
or will soon be dead due to the NHS focusing on covid.
but what can he do if the unions (and apparently loads of parents) are
against this plan

people can't go back to work unless they can send their kids to school and
commute on the train

and the unions are doing their best to block those two things
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-23 08:54:32 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 May 2020 18:27:02 +0100
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:55:52 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
He's changed a lot since his near-death experience. He was previously a
gung-ho risk-taker, but is now a timid, cautious character, at least in
this respect. Being a new father (yet again) probably also makes him a lot
more cautious.
Thats probably true, but he needs to snap out of it and realise the policies
are now doing far more damage than the virus. There was some (probably
exaggerated) figure of 7 million doctor and hospital appointments backlog.
Even if its only 1 million thats a lot of people with potentially serious
problems not having them sorted. And god knows how many cancer patients are
or will soon be dead due to the NHS focusing on covid.
but what can he do if the unions (and apparently loads of parents) are
against this plan
The unions are just sabre rattling and will soon settle down. And I'm a parent
and I have no problem with my child going back to school. If others do then
thats fine by me - smaller class sizes.
Post by tim...
people can't go back to work unless they can send their kids to school and
commute on the train
and the unions are doing their best to block those two things
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current one)
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
tim...
2020-05-23 09:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 22 May 2020 18:27:02 +0100
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:55:52 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
He's changed a lot since his near-death experience. He was previously a
gung-ho risk-taker, but is now a timid, cautious character, at least in
this respect. Being a new father (yet again) probably also makes him a lot
more cautious.
Thats probably true, but he needs to snap out of it and realise the policies
are now doing far more damage than the virus. There was some (probably
exaggerated) figure of 7 million doctor and hospital appointments backlog.
Even if its only 1 million thats a lot of people with potentially serious
problems not having them sorted. And god knows how many cancer patients are
or will soon be dead due to the NHS focusing on covid.
but what can he do if the unions (and apparently loads of parents) are
against this plan
The unions are just sabre rattling and will soon settle down. And I'm a parent
and I have no problem with my child going back to school. If others do then
thats fine by me - smaller class sizes.
Post by tim...
people can't go back to work unless they can send their kids to school and
commute on the train
and the unions are doing their best to block those two things
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current one)
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
refusing to go to work because your workplace is "unsafe" under H&S regs, is
not legally "a strike"
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-23 09:44:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 May 2020 10:13:16 +0100
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 22 May 2020 18:27:02 +0100
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:55:52 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
He's changed a lot since his near-death experience. He was previously a
gung-ho risk-taker, but is now a timid, cautious character, at least in
this respect. Being a new father (yet again) probably also makes him a lot
more cautious.
Thats probably true, but he needs to snap out of it and realise the policies
are now doing far more damage than the virus. There was some (probably
exaggerated) figure of 7 million doctor and hospital appointments backlog.
Even if its only 1 million thats a lot of people with potentially serious
problems not having them sorted. And god knows how many cancer patients are
or will soon be dead due to the NHS focusing on covid.
but what can he do if the unions (and apparently loads of parents) are
against this plan
The unions are just sabre rattling and will soon settle down. And I'm a parent
and I have no problem with my child going back to school. If others do then
thats fine by me - smaller class sizes.
Post by tim...
people can't go back to work unless they can send their kids to school and
commute on the train
and the unions are doing their best to block those two things
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current one)
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
refusing to go to work because your workplace is "unsafe" under H&S regs, is
not legally "a strike"
Except its not unsafe if you believe the scientists. The unions were more
than happy to believe them when they said we needed a lockdown, yet for some
strange reason I can't quite fathom they decide not to believe them when it
means their members may have to go back to actually doing some work.
Recliner
2020-05-23 09:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 23 May 2020 10:13:16 +0100
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 22 May 2020 18:27:02 +0100
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:55:52 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
He's changed a lot since his near-death experience. He was previously a
gung-ho risk-taker, but is now a timid, cautious character, at least in
this respect. Being a new father (yet again) probably also makes him a lot
more cautious.
Thats probably true, but he needs to snap out of it and realise the policies
are now doing far more damage than the virus. There was some (probably
exaggerated) figure of 7 million doctor and hospital appointments backlog.
Even if its only 1 million thats a lot of people with potentially serious
problems not having them sorted. And god knows how many cancer patients are
or will soon be dead due to the NHS focusing on covid.
but what can he do if the unions (and apparently loads of parents) are
against this plan
The unions are just sabre rattling and will soon settle down. And I'm a parent
and I have no problem with my child going back to school. If others do then
thats fine by me - smaller class sizes.
Post by tim...
people can't go back to work unless they can send their kids to school and
commute on the train
and the unions are doing their best to block those two things
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current one)
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
refusing to go to work because your workplace is "unsafe" under H&S regs, is
not legally "a strike"
Except its not unsafe if you believe the scientists. The unions were more
than happy to believe them when they said we needed a lockdown, yet for some
strange reason I can't quite fathom they decide not to believe them when it
means their members may have to go back to actually doing some work.
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Roland Perry
2020-05-23 10:54:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Which in my experience is, for teachers, overwhelmingly not on public
transport. Apart from anything else it's not reliable enough to
guarantee to get you for 8.30am, not a minute later.

Also, many bus routes avoid schools before 9am, because they don't want
the hassle of kids on stage buses (yes, I've discussed this specific
issue with a bus company when writing a school's transport policy).
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2020-05-23 12:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Which in my experience is, for teachers, overwhelmingly not on public
transport. Apart from anything else it's not reliable enough to
guarantee to get you for 8.30am, not a minute later.
Also, many bus routes avoid schools before 9am, because they don't want
the hassle of kids on stage buses (yes, I've discussed this specific
issue with a bus company when writing a school's transport policy).
Yes, I was thinking of the dangers of the drive to work.
Roland Perry
2020-05-23 12:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Which in my experience is, for teachers, overwhelmingly not on public
transport. Apart from anything else it's not reliable enough to
guarantee to get you for 8.30am, not a minute later.
Also, many bus routes avoid schools before 9am, because they don't want
the hassle of kids on stage buses (yes, I've discussed this specific
issue with a bus company when writing a school's transport policy).
Yes, I was thinking of the dangers of the drive to work.
Apart from the fact lots of people are driving with their eyes shut
because they apparently expect exclusive use of deserted roads, what's
the risk you allude to?
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2020-05-23 12:58:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Which in my experience is, for teachers, overwhelmingly not on public
transport. Apart from anything else it's not reliable enough to
guarantee to get you for 8.30am, not a minute later.
Also, many bus routes avoid schools before 9am, because they don't want
the hassle of kids on stage buses (yes, I've discussed this specific
issue with a bus company when writing a school's transport policy).
Yes, I was thinking of the dangers of the drive to work.
Apart from the fact lots of people are driving with their eyes shut
because they apparently expect exclusive use of deserted roads, what's
the risk you allude to?
Just the normal risks of the road, nothing special. In other words,
their risks of catching covid-19 are no worse than the risks of
everyday life.
Roland Perry
2020-05-23 14:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Which in my experience is, for teachers, overwhelmingly not on public
transport. Apart from anything else it's not reliable enough to
guarantee to get you for 8.30am, not a minute later.
Also, many bus routes avoid schools before 9am, because they don't want
the hassle of kids on stage buses (yes, I've discussed this specific
issue with a bus company when writing a school's transport policy).
Yes, I was thinking of the dangers of the drive to work.
Apart from the fact lots of people are driving with their eyes shut
because they apparently expect exclusive use of deserted roads, what's
the risk you allude to?
Just the normal risks of the road, nothing special. In other words,
their risks of catching covid-19 are no worse than the risks of
everyday life.
On the commute, I agree. The risks arise when they get to work.
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2020-05-23 14:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Which in my experience is, for teachers, overwhelmingly not on public
transport. Apart from anything else it's not reliable enough to
guarantee to get you for 8.30am, not a minute later.
Also, many bus routes avoid schools before 9am, because they don't want
the hassle of kids on stage buses (yes, I've discussed this specific
issue with a bus company when writing a school's transport policy).
Yes, I was thinking of the dangers of the drive to work.
Apart from the fact lots of people are driving with their eyes shut
because they apparently expect exclusive use of deserted roads, what's
the risk you allude to?
Just the normal risks of the road, nothing special. In other words,
their risks of catching covid-19 are no worse than the risks of
everyday life.
On the commute, I agree. The risks arise when they get to work.
What risks? Playground or gym accidents? Explosions in the science
lab?
Roland Perry
2020-05-23 17:08:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Which in my experience is, for teachers, overwhelmingly not on public
transport. Apart from anything else it's not reliable enough to
guarantee to get you for 8.30am, not a minute later.
Also, many bus routes avoid schools before 9am, because they don't want
the hassle of kids on stage buses (yes, I've discussed this specific
issue with a bus company when writing a school's transport policy).
Yes, I was thinking of the dangers of the drive to work.
Apart from the fact lots of people are driving with their eyes shut
because they apparently expect exclusive use of deserted roads, what's
the risk you allude to?
Just the normal risks of the road, nothing special. In other words,
their risks of catching covid-19 are no worse than the risks of
everyday life.
On the commute, I agree. The risks arise when they get to work.
What risks? Playground or gym accidents? Explosions in the science
lab?
Contact with infected [but possibly asymptotic] pupils (or colleagues,
or non-teaching staff).
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2020-05-23 20:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Which in my experience is, for teachers, overwhelmingly not on public
transport. Apart from anything else it's not reliable enough to
guarantee to get you for 8.30am, not a minute later.
Also, many bus routes avoid schools before 9am, because they don't want
the hassle of kids on stage buses (yes, I've discussed this specific
issue with a bus company when writing a school's transport policy).
Yes, I was thinking of the dangers of the drive to work.
Apart from the fact lots of people are driving with their eyes shut
because they apparently expect exclusive use of deserted roads, what's
the risk you allude to?
Just the normal risks of the road, nothing special. In other words,
their risks of catching covid-19 are no worse than the risks of
everyday life.
On the commute, I agree. The risks arise when they get to work.
What risks? Playground or gym accidents? Explosions in the science
lab?
Contact with infected [but possibly asymptotic] pupils (or colleagues,
or non-teaching staff).
As I've already pointed out in this thread, teachers have a much lower risk
of contracting Covid than the general public. That's why I said that the
greatest risk to teachers is the commute.
Roland Perry
2020-05-24 07:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Which in my experience is, for teachers, overwhelmingly not on public
transport. Apart from anything else it's not reliable enough to
guarantee to get you for 8.30am, not a minute later.
Also, many bus routes avoid schools before 9am, because they don't want
the hassle of kids on stage buses (yes, I've discussed this specific
issue with a bus company when writing a school's transport policy).
Yes, I was thinking of the dangers of the drive to work.
Apart from the fact lots of people are driving with their eyes shut
because they apparently expect exclusive use of deserted roads, what's
the risk you allude to?
Just the normal risks of the road, nothing special. In other words,
their risks of catching covid-19 are no worse than the risks of
everyday life.
On the commute, I agree. The risks arise when they get to work.
What risks? Playground or gym accidents? Explosions in the science
lab?
Contact with infected [but possibly asymptotic] pupils (or colleagues,
or non-teaching staff).
As I've already pointed out in this thread, teachers have a much lower risk
of contracting Covid than the general public.
We need a new meme: Ask two different statisticians, get three answers;

<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/17/scientists-divided-over-co
ronavirus-risk-to-children-if-schools-reopen>
Post by Recliner
That's why I said that the greatest risk to teachers is the commute.
From RTAs?
--
Roland Perry
Recliner
2020-05-24 09:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Which in my experience is, for teachers, overwhelmingly not on public
transport. Apart from anything else it's not reliable enough to
guarantee to get you for 8.30am, not a minute later.
Also, many bus routes avoid schools before 9am, because they don't want
the hassle of kids on stage buses (yes, I've discussed this specific
issue with a bus company when writing a school's transport policy).
Yes, I was thinking of the dangers of the drive to work.
Apart from the fact lots of people are driving with their eyes shut
because they apparently expect exclusive use of deserted roads, what's
the risk you allude to?
Just the normal risks of the road, nothing special. In other words,
their risks of catching covid-19 are no worse than the risks of
everyday life.
On the commute, I agree. The risks arise when they get to work.
What risks? Playground or gym accidents? Explosions in the science
lab?
Contact with infected [but possibly asymptotic] pupils (or colleagues,
or non-teaching staff).
As I've already pointed out in this thread, teachers have a much lower risk
of contracting Covid than the general public.
We need a new meme: Ask two different statisticians, get three answers;
<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/17/scientists-divided-over-co
ronavirus-risk-to-children-if-schools-reopen>
Post by Recliner
That's why I said that the greatest risk to teachers is the commute.
From RTAs?
Yes
tim...
2020-05-24 08:43:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Which in my experience is, for teachers, overwhelmingly not on public
transport. Apart from anything else it's not reliable enough to
guarantee to get you for 8.30am, not a minute later.
Also, many bus routes avoid schools before 9am, because they don't want
the hassle of kids on stage buses (yes, I've discussed this specific
issue with a bus company when writing a school's transport policy).
Yes, I was thinking of the dangers of the drive to work.
Apart from the fact lots of people are driving with their eyes shut
because they apparently expect exclusive use of deserted roads, what's
the risk you allude to?
Just the normal risks of the road, nothing special. In other words,
their risks of catching covid-19 are no worse than the risks of
everyday life.
On the commute, I agree. The risks arise when they get to work.
What risks? Playground or gym accidents? Explosions in the science
lab?
Contact with infected [but possibly asymptotic] pupils (or colleagues,
or non-teaching staff).
As I've already pointed out in this thread, teachers have a much lower risk
of contracting Covid than the general public.
This would be teachers not doing their normal job? (Yes I know that schools
are still partially open)

How come they have less chance than the rest of the general public, of
catching the disease in their not-working part of the day

tim
Recliner
2020-05-24 09:36:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Recliner
Apparently teachers have had a significantly lower death rate from Covid
than the wider population, after correcting for age and gender. The
greatest risk of schools reopening is the journey to and from the school.
Which in my experience is, for teachers, overwhelmingly not on public
transport. Apart from anything else it's not reliable enough to
guarantee to get you for 8.30am, not a minute later.
Also, many bus routes avoid schools before 9am, because they don't want
the hassle of kids on stage buses (yes, I've discussed this specific
issue with a bus company when writing a school's transport policy).
Yes, I was thinking of the dangers of the drive to work.
Apart from the fact lots of people are driving with their eyes shut
because they apparently expect exclusive use of deserted roads, what's
the risk you allude to?
Just the normal risks of the road, nothing special. In other words,
their risks of catching covid-19 are no worse than the risks of
everyday life.
On the commute, I agree. The risks arise when they get to work.
What risks? Playground or gym accidents? Explosions in the science
lab?
Contact with infected [but possibly asymptotic] pupils (or colleagues,
or non-teaching staff).
As I've already pointed out in this thread, teachers have a much lower risk
of contracting Covid than the general public.
This would be teachers not doing their normal job? (Yes I know that schools
are still partially open)
How come they have less chance than the rest of the general public, of
catching the disease in their not-working part of the day
They were doing their normal jobs when the virus was spreading most
rapidly.
Arthur Figgis
2020-05-23 10:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current one)
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
Wouldn't that risk turning into more of a politician with one bollock
approach?
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-25 08:21:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 May 2020 11:33:54 +0100
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current
one)
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
Wouldn't that risk turning into more of a politician with one bollock
approach?
I don't follow.
Graeme Wall
2020-05-25 08:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 23 May 2020 11:33:54 +0100
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current
one)
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
Wouldn't that risk turning into more of a politician with one bollock
approach?
I don't follow.
Hitler has only got one ball
Goerings are rather small
Himmler's are rather sim'lar
And Goebbels has no balls at all.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-25 10:33:08 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 25 May 2020 09:26:27 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 23 May 2020 11:33:54 +0100
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current
one)
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
Wouldn't that risk turning into more of a politician with one bollock
approach?
I don't follow.
Hitler has only got one ball
Goerings are rather small
Himmler's are rather sim'lar
And Goebbels has no balls at all.
Another one for Godwin then.
tim...
2020-05-25 12:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 23 May 2020 11:33:54 +0100
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current
one)
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
Wouldn't that risk turning into more of a politician with one bollock
approach?
I don't follow.
Hitler has only got one ball
Goerings are rather small
Himmler's are rather sim'lar
And Goebbels has no balls at all.
damn, you replied whilst I was looking for a suitable link

I think my reply was better though

tim
Post by Graeme Wall
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
Graeme Wall
2020-05-25 13:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 23 May 2020 11:33:54 +0100
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current
one)
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
Wouldn't that risk turning into more of a politician with one bollock
approach?
I don't follow.
Hitler has only got one ball
Goerings are rather small
Himmler's are rather sim'lar
And Goebbels has no balls at all.
damn, you replied whilst I was looking for a suitable link
I think my reply was better though
<pokes tongue out>
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
tim...
2020-05-25 08:39:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 23 May 2020 11:33:54 +0100
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current
one)
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
Wouldn't that risk turning into more of a politician with one bollock
approach?
I don't follow.
all together now!


Graeme Wall
2020-05-23 11:38:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 22 May 2020 18:27:02 +0100
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:55:52 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
He's changed a lot since his near-death experience. He was previously a
gung-ho risk-taker, but is now a timid, cautious character, at least in
this respect. Being a new father (yet again) probably also makes him a lot
more cautious.
Thats probably true, but he needs to snap out of it and realise the policies
are now doing far more damage than the virus. There was some (probably
exaggerated) figure of 7 million doctor and hospital appointments backlog.
Even if its only 1 million thats a lot of people with potentially serious
problems not having them sorted. And god knows how many cancer patients are
or will soon be dead due to the NHS focusing on covid.
but what can he do if the unions (and apparently loads of parents) are
against this plan
The unions are just sabre rattling and will soon settle down. And I'm a parent
and I have no problem with my child going back to school. If others do then
thats fine by me - smaller class sizes.
Post by tim...
people can't go back to work unless they can send their kids to school and
commute on the train
and the unions are doing their best to block those two things
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current one)
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
The one thing that would guarantee Mr Cash's wet dream of a general strike.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-25 08:26:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 May 2020 12:38:37 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current
one)
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
The one thing that would guarantee Mr Cash's wet dream of a general strike.
Unfortunately for Mr Cash its not the 1970s any more. Only a minority of the
working population belong to a union and most of those unions are not militant
but more glorified HR mechanisms. So he could call a general strike but apart
from the usual suspects (rail workers, teachers, various council employees)
life would go on as normal. And the strike itself wouldn't last long since
the strikers would not be paid from union funds and would have no choice but
to go back to work.
David Cantrell
2020-05-27 12:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current one)
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
That would never get through parliament. There are a lot of Tory MPs who
are decent human beings and not caricatures. And then there's the Lords.
--
David Cantrell | semi-evolved ape-thing

Irregular English:
ladies glow; gentlemen perspire; brutes, oafs and athletes sweat
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-27 14:46:44 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 27 May 2020 13:42:24 +0100
Post by David Cantrell
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Any government with a working pair of bollocks (which rules out the current
one)
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
could enact emergency legislation at a time like this to put the unions
back in their box by making striking illegal for X months and shutting down
any union that proposes it.
That would never get through parliament. There are a lot of Tory MPs who
are decent human beings and not caricatures. And then there's the Lords.
I'm sure 3 months ago people would have said the exact same thing about putting
the entire country under effective house arrest. Believe me, it would get
through and the lords are irrelevant anyway as any legislation can eventually
be forced through. All the lords do is delay it.
Graeme Wall
2020-05-21 16:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
You voted for him.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-22 08:46:21 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 May 2020 17:35:57 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
You voted for him.
I suspect most people didn't vote for Boris, they voted against Corbyn. I had
no illusions about Boris being useless - he was mayor here for 8 years and
achieved bugger all in that time except some overpriced badly designed buses
and closing tube ticket offices against advice - but he was a lot less risky
proposition than the marxist or the arrogant Jo Swinson.
Recliner
2020-05-22 09:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 17:35:57 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
You voted for him.
I suspect most people didn't vote for Boris, they voted against Corbyn. I had
no illusions about Boris being useless - he was mayor here for 8 years and
achieved bugger all in that time except some overpriced badly designed buses
and closing tube ticket offices against advice - but he was a lot less risky
proposition than the marxist or the arrogant Jo Swinson.
You do our great leader a disservice: have you forgotten the magnificent
Garden Bridge that nestles beside Waterloo Bridge? Or the ultimate place
to practise social isolation even in normal times, the Thames cable cars
from nowhere to nowhere? Then there's the water cannons that have so
successfully improved policing in London, at so little cost. And I'm sure
even you would enjoy flying from our new Borisport bird sanctuary airport
in the Thames estuary?
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-22 09:52:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 May 2020 09:24:59 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
I suspect most people didn't vote for Boris, they voted against Corbyn. I
had
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
no illusions about Boris being useless - he was mayor here for 8 years and
achieved bugger all in that time except some overpriced badly designed buses
and closing tube ticket offices against advice - but he was a lot less risky
proposition than the marxist or the arrogant Jo Swinson.
You do our great leader a disservice: have you forgotten the magnificent
Garden Bridge that nestles beside Waterloo Bridge? Or the ultimate place
Ah yes, silly me. Still, a lot of planners and designers had a nice xmas
bonus that year on the money spent.
Post by Recliner
to practise social isolation even in normal times, the Thames cable cars
from nowhere to nowhere? Then there's the water cannons that have so
successfully improved policing in London, at so little cost. And I'm sure
The Dangleway is popular with Tourists! The ones who forgot to get off the
Thames Clipper at Greenwich and ended up at north greenwich by mistake anyway.

The water cannon I will give him a bit - Theresa May was just being a bloody
minded imbecile not allowing them as a last resort given they're already legal
in northern ireland (along with sidearms incidentaly which is never mentioned
when the arm-the-police argument rears its head once a year). But then she
is the perfect example of shit floating to the top.
tim...
2020-05-22 17:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 17:35:57 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
You voted for him.
I suspect most people didn't vote for Boris, they voted against Corbyn. I had
no illusions about Boris being useless - he was mayor here for 8 years and
achieved bugger all in that time except some overpriced badly designed buses
and closing tube ticket offices against advice
though that latter items doesn't appear to have been the disaster it was
predicted to be.
Recliner
2020-05-22 20:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 17:35:57 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
You voted for him.
I suspect most people didn't vote for Boris, they voted against Corbyn. I had
no illusions about Boris being useless - he was mayor here for 8 years and
achieved bugger all in that time except some overpriced badly designed buses
and closing tube ticket offices against advice
though that latter items doesn't appear to have been the disaster it was
predicted to be.
True. Both Ken and Boris initially wanted to keep them open, then changed
their minds, and as you say, it's worked out OK.
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-23 08:56:31 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 May 2020 20:30:06 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 17:35:57 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
You voted for him.
I suspect most people didn't vote for Boris, they voted against Corbyn. I had
no illusions about Boris being useless - he was mayor here for 8 years and
achieved bugger all in that time except some overpriced badly designed buses
and closing tube ticket offices against advice
though that latter items doesn't appear to have been the disaster it was
predicted to be.
True. Both Ken and Boris initially wanted to keep them open, then changed
their minds, and as you say, it's worked out OK.
Not a disaster, but go to somewhere like oxford street or victoria during
normal times and there'll be a queue of confused tourists waiting to speak
to whichever station worker drew the short straw that morning to be
Mr Information. There's still the same number of staff except now with some
unused office space. What has it achieved?
tim...
2020-05-23 09:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 22 May 2020 20:30:06 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 17:35:57 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no
variation
in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
You voted for him.
I suspect most people didn't vote for Boris, they voted against Corbyn.
I
had
no illusions about Boris being useless - he was mayor here for 8 years and
achieved bugger all in that time except some overpriced badly designed buses
and closing tube ticket offices against advice
though that latter items doesn't appear to have been the disaster it was
predicted to be.
True. Both Ken and Boris initially wanted to keep them open, then changed
their minds, and as you say, it's worked out OK.
Not a disaster, but go to somewhere like oxford street or victoria during
normal times and there'll be a queue of confused tourists waiting to speak
to whichever station worker drew the short straw that morning to be
Mr Information.
who would have previously been in the long queue for the counter staff

what's the difference here?
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
There's still the same number of staff except now with some
unused office space. What has it achieved?
the opportunity to make a different use of that office space in the future
b***@nowhere.co.uk
2020-05-23 09:45:54 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 May 2020 10:14:50 +0100
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 22 May 2020 20:30:06 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 17:35:57 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-
ph
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-
va
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no
variation
in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
You voted for him.
I suspect most people didn't vote for Boris, they voted against Corbyn.
I
had
no illusions about Boris being useless - he was mayor here for 8 years and
achieved bugger all in that time except some overpriced badly designed buses
and closing tube ticket offices against advice
though that latter items doesn't appear to have been the disaster it was
predicted to be.
True. Both Ken and Boris initially wanted to keep them open, then changed
their minds, and as you say, it's worked out OK.
Not a disaster, but go to somewhere like oxford street or victoria during
normal times and there'll be a queue of confused tourists waiting to speak
to whichever station worker drew the short straw that morning to be
Mr Information.
who would have previously been in the long queue for the counter staff
what's the difference here?
I don't know about you, but I tend to have more information available to me
in a more convenient manner when sitting at a desk than when walking around
trying to poke a tiny smartphone screen. Plus staff behind a window can't be
assaulted.
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
There's still the same number of staff except now with some
unused office space. What has it achieved?
the opportunity to make a different use of that office space in the future
Its been quite a few years and nothing has happened yet.
Recliner
2020-05-23 09:36:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 22 May 2020 20:30:06 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 17:35:57 +0100
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Thu, 21 May 2020 09:10:48 +0100
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-ph
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
e-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-va
Post by tim...
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Post by Recliner
riation-easing-lockdown-covid/
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
You voted for him.
I suspect most people didn't vote for Boris, they voted against Corbyn. I had
no illusions about Boris being useless - he was mayor here for 8 years and
achieved bugger all in that time except some overpriced badly designed buses
and closing tube ticket offices against advice
though that latter items doesn't appear to have been the disaster it was
predicted to be.
True. Both Ken and Boris initially wanted to keep them open, then changed
their minds, and as you say, it's worked out OK.
Not a disaster, but go to somewhere like oxford street or victoria during
normal times and there'll be a queue of confused tourists waiting to speak
to whichever station worker drew the short straw that morning to be
Mr Information. There's still the same number of staff except now with some
unused office space. What has it achieved?
I think they now have significantly fewer staff on duty, particularly away
from the dozen or so tourist and visitor hotspots.
Marland
2020-05-21 16:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Given the spinelessness evident at #10 there'll probably be no variation in
the rules for weeks even though other EU countries are now all easing
restrictions far more than us. What did we do to deserve an ineffectual
blustering muppet like Boris in charge at a time like this?
Voted for Brexit.


GH
Recliner
2020-05-21 09:55:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by tim...
Post by Recliner
Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Tue, 19 May 2020 08:25:34 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Recliner
The 2m thing is like a religious prohibition: vaguely based on a sensible
I hadn't thought of it like that, but it certainly matches peoples behaviour.
Wierdly - assuming my local supermarket is typical - that behaviour is
forgotten in the aisles. Presumably because its almost impossible to observe.
Post by Recliner
Tempting though it may be, most experts say we should not look for
individuals. Superspreading events are determined by a complex mix of
behavioural and environmental factors.
I wonder if its complex in reality. I imagine its the sort of people
who
wipe
their nose with their fingers then go and then go and touch a dozen
items
in
every shop they visit and hardly buy any of them just leaving them
on
the
shelves nicely infected. Ditto when they touch the handles in buses
and
trains.
Post by Recliner
In London, cases of coronavirus have dropped dramatically since the
lockdown. The superspreading events that were once spreading the
virus
so
widely have now stopped.
I doubt they've stopped , far more likely IMO is that a significant
proportion
of the population have caught the virus without knowing it and are
now
immune.
I think it's true that in London, most of the mobile population is now
either immune of not susceptible to the disease. I was in Waitrose
today, and everyone seemed more relaxed. Few of the staff were
bothering to wear the face shields they're supplied with, there was no
special sanitising of the trolley handles, and people got quite close
to each other in the aisles. There was also almost no queue to get in.
The few people with or susceptible to the disease in London are in
care homes or hospitals, and the task now is to stop it getting back
into the wider population.
though we are still getting 3,500 new cases every day
You're out by three orders of magnitude. The number of new cases a day in
I mean in the whole country, and it's not the quantum that's the problem,
it's the fact that it has barely moved downwards from the peak, after 6
weeks of Lockdown (AIH it did yesterday)
I've argued before that a regional change in the rules is unfair and
unworkable, so the London number alone is IMHO not relevant
We already have regional variations in the rules, and will see more as
schools start going back. It's not only fair and workable, but is
inevitable.
The virus arrived first in London, which you might regard as unsporting
behaviour on its part, but nobody told it your rules. It had longer to
spread in London before the lockdown started, so London got hit harder and
earlier than anywhere else. It had a higher peak of excess deaths, and then
an earlier decline in new cases. The virus has now almost burned out in
London, but not in the north of England or Scotland, which are a few weeks
behind on the curve.
In fact, their curve was more squashed than London's, so they may need a
significantly longer total period of lockdown before the virus runs its
course. Remember, the lockdown isn't a cure; it's just a way of prolonging
the agony, and only justified to avoid overloading the NHS, which it did
very successfully, even in London.
The number of new cases in London has now fallen to zero in a 24-hour
<https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-cases-london-figures-decline-phe-a4446336.html>
and yet, there will be no regional variation in the rules
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/20/culture-secretary-rules-regional-variation-easing-lockdown-covid/
What will probably happen is steady easing of the lockdown in England, but
with some areas imposing local restrictions. For examples wearing of masks
in public places and on transport may be mandatory in some places but not
others. Restaurants and pubs might start reopening next month in London,
but later in the north. Schools will make individual decisions.

But it's already clear that most people in London think the crisis is
almost over, and want to get back to normal asap. As realisation dawns that
there are almost no new cases in London, people won't tolerate being locked
indoors, unable to get back to many jobs, for no good reason.

Our government's slowness to act killed a lot of people early in the
crisis; now, that same slowness to act is killing a lot of businesses.
Robin9
2020-05-20 09:12:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52708757
Full list of London's busiest stations: [nb no "to avoid"]
Barking
Brixton
Canada Water
Canary Wharf
Canning Town
Clapham Junction
East Croydon
East Ham
Lewisham
Leyton
Liverpool Street
London Bridge
North Acton
Seven Sisters
Stratford
Walthamstow Central
West Croydon
West Ham
Wood Green
Woolwich Arsenal
eg Wood Green, but not
Oxford-Circus/Bank/Hloborn/Victoria/Waterloo/Paddington/Euston/KGX-STP/et
c/etc.
--
Roland Perry
The surprise is that stations like Oxford Circus and those others
you've cited are not in the most busy group. To me, living in Leyton,
it's not surprising to learn that Wood Green, North Acton and Leyton
are three of the busiest. (The others listed are all interchang
stations
which hugely increases the footfall).

Leyton Underground Station - and I have done the count several times -
has in the off-peak periods about 25 passengers every three minutes
coming onto the westbound platform with a similar number
alighting from trains in the opposite direction. In the peak periods
the numbers are much higher. (These figures are of course pre-Covid 19)

When I travel off-peak south of the river on National Rail services
I'm
always startled by how few people use the trains


--
Robin9
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