Foreclosures up 2 times, 3 times, do I hear four times. Why, yes, I do.

[Winston_Smith]

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_15_08.htm>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.

The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.

Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.

"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."

Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip

<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county

San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.

The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.

Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 – 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.

The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

[k***@yahoo.com]

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.
The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.
Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.
"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."
Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.
The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

$430,000
-107,500 = 25% down
= 322,500 Loan
@ 6$ interest, if you can get it.
= $1612.25
times for .33% Gross income coverage of "housing" debt.
=$4836.75 Gross income/mo. to qualify for the house loan.
Times 12 = $58,041/ year.
Or:
$4836 / 40hrs = $120/ hour
Who makes that besides Attorneys and Doctors?
Good luck.
Those guys are already selling their "second" homes that they bought
to try to catch the "housing boom" wave and make money.

Bye the way.
Nevada will be getting hammered more and more soon.
40% of the jobs in the Las Vegas area are construction related.

[beebs]

Post by k***@yahoo.com
$4836 / 40hrs = $120/ hour
Who makes that besides Attorneys and Doctors?

There are, on average, 166 hours in a month.

$4863/month divided by 166 hours/month
is about $29/hour, still pretty high.

beebs

[k***@yahoo.com]

Post by beebs

Post by k***@yahoo.com
$4836 / 40hrs = $120/ hour
Who makes that besides Attorneys and Doctors?

There are, on average, 166 hours in a month.
$4863/month divided by 166 hours/month
is about $29/hour, still pretty high.
beebs

Ooops,
And I even was double checking my calc.
Shit.
Yup.
29/ hr is not "middle class."

[Tim May]

In article

Post by beebs

Post by k***@yahoo.com
$4836 / 40hrs = $120/ hour
Who makes that besides Attorneys and Doctors?

There are, on average, 166 hours in a month.
$4863/month divided by 166 hours/month
is about $29/hour, still pretty high.

Even divided by 40 hours a month, I make a lot more than $120 an hour.

Investements, high tech, competence....it all adds up.


--Tim May

[k***@yahoo.com]

Post by Tim May
In article

Post by beebs

Post by k***@yahoo.com
$4836 / 40hrs = $120/ hour
Who makes that besides Attorneys and Doctors?

There are, on average, 166 hours in a month.
$4863/month divided by 166 hours/month
is about $29/hour, still pretty high.

Even divided by 40 hours a month, I make a lot more than $120 an hour.
Investements, high tech, competence....it all adds up.
--Tim May

You make that 160 hours a month?
Or you make 20K / month somehow?

I guess you are above "middle class."

[Curly Surmudgeon]

Post by Winston_Smith

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.
The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.
Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.
"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."
Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.
The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

$430,000
-107,500 = 25% down
= 322,500 Loan
@ 6$ interest, if you can get it.
= $1612.25
times for .33% Gross income coverage of "housing" debt.
=$4836.75 Gross income/mo. to qualify for the house loan.
Times 12 = $58,041/ year.
$4836 / 40hrs = $120/ hour

You've amortized a monthly payment over one week. Realistically one can
dedicate 50% of such an income to mortgage which would bring the income
down to $60/hr. Still stiff but doable for many however today, to own a
home, requires two wage earners which adds still more buyers.

But those earning a median income won't qualify.

Post by Winston_Smith
Who makes that besides Attorneys and Doctors? Good luck.
Those guys are already selling their "second" homes that they bought to
try to catch the "housing boom" wave and make money.
Bye the way.
Nevada will be getting hammered more and more soon. 40% of the jobs in
the Las Vegas area are construction related.

Yes, Reno is hurting too as is Phoenix with some 50% of new industrial
builds sitting vacant and huge numbers of foreclosures on single family
homes. According to my buddy in the trades Phoenix is about the only
region hiring this week in the West.

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Robert Sturgeon]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:45:37 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
But those earning a median income won't qualify.

Well, first, even at the max in home ownership, only about
66% of households owned their own homes. So we shouldn't
expect the median income to be able to afford the median
house. But if the affordability index gets too far out of
line, we should expect house prices to fall -- even though
real estate "professionals" have always assured us that
doesn't happen. The affordability index got WAY out of
line, and so house prices are falling. I won't be surprised
if they fall quite a bit more.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

[E***@spamblock.panix.com]

Post by Robert Sturgeon
But if the affordability index gets too far out of
line, we should expect house prices to fall

That has been my analysis as well. For many years, around here, crappy
little ranch houses have been priced such that one would need to earn a
couple of hundred thousand a year to afford them comfortably.

I was extremely sceptical that high-income people would want to live like
Al Bundy. Prices are now falling.

Post by Robert Sturgeon
I won't be surprised
if they fall quite a bit more.

Yep. And I would not be surprised if houses start to go for less than
their replacement cost. Often, the pendulum swings way far out before it
starts to go the other way. It may come to pass that houses start to be
looked at as a way to get into financial trouble and lose your shirt.

That would take years, given folk's strong current prejudices about real
estate being a good way to preserve wealth, but none of us can reliably
predict the future.

Demographic trends impact this stuff greatly. And the number of "young
family" aged people is declining, while the number of "empty nester" aged
people is increasing.

I see little reason for optimism. The typical adage is "They are not
making more land". In the future, it may be "They are not ripping down
houses", as demographics cause demand to dwindle.

But residential real estate is a VERY local market. Some places will do
well, some will coast, and some will drop like a rock. Energy prices will
likely affect buying decisions as well. I have trouble believing that the
new-fangled "subdivision in the middle of nowhere" neighborhoods will be
in great demand.

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Robert Sturgeon
But if the affordability index gets too far out of
line, we should expect house prices to fall

That has been my analysis as well.  For many years, around here, crappy
little ranch houses have been priced such that one would need to earn a
couple of hundred thousand a year to afford them comfortably.
I was extremely sceptical that high-income people would want to live like
Al Bundy.  Prices are now falling.

Post by Robert Sturgeon
I won't be surprised
if they fall quite a bit more.

Yep.  And I would not be surprised if houses start to go for less than
their replacement cost.  Often, the pendulum swings way far out before it
starts to go the other way.  It may come to pass that houses start to be
looked at as a way to get into financial trouble and lose your shirt.  
That would take years, given folk's strong current prejudices about real
estate being a good way to preserve wealth, but none of us can reliably
predict the future.
Demographic trends impact this stuff greatly.  And the number of "young
family" aged people is declining, while the number of "empty nester" aged
people is increasing.
I see little reason for optimism.  The typical adage is "They are not
making more land".  In the future, it may be "They are not ripping down
houses", as demographics cause demand to dwindle.
But residential real estate is a VERY local market.  Some places will do
well, some will coast, and some will drop like a rock.  Energy prices will
likely affect buying decisions as well. I have trouble believing that the
new-fangled "subdivision in the middle of nowhere" neighborhoods will be
in great demand.
--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
        -- Bertrand Russel

I also agree...cheap oil allowed building where it made little sense.

Expensive oil will make these locations uninhabited.

TMT

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Robert Sturgeon
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:45:37 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
But those earning a median income won't qualify.

Well, first, even at the max in home ownership, only about
66% of households owned their own homes.  So we shouldn't
expect the median income to be able to afford the median
house.  But if the affordability index gets too far out of
line, we should expect house prices to fall -- even though
real estate "professionals" have always assured us that
doesn't happen.  The affordability index got WAY out of
line, and so house prices are falling.  I won't be surprised
if they fall quite a bit more.
--
Robert Sturgeon
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

I think they will fall more than a bit Robert.

I expect a devaluation of at least 40%.

TMT

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Robert Sturgeon
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:45:37 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
But those earning a median income won't qualify.

Well, first, even at the max in home ownership, only about
66% of households owned their own homes.  So we shouldn't
expect the median income to be able to afford the median
house.  But if the affordability index gets too far out of
line, we should expect house prices to fall -- even though
real estate "professionals" have always assured us that
doesn't happen.  The affordability index got WAY out of
line, and so house prices are falling.  I won't be surprised
if they fall quite a bit more.
--
Robert Sturgeon
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

I think they will fall more than a bit Robert.
I expect a devaluation of at least 40%.
TMT- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I should have said "at least 40% MORE" based on the information below.

TMT

Existing home sales fell 36 per cent in California and 30 per cent in
Florida in the year to November 2007, against a national decline of 20
per cent. Median sale prices fell 12 per cent in California and 10 per
cent in Florida, against only 3 per cent nationwide.

[E***@spamblock.panix.com]

Post by k***@yahoo.com
$4836 / 40hrs = $120/ hour
Who makes that besides Attorneys and Doctors?

Why just 40 hours?

What about 2 income families?

ANd BTW, salesmen, CEOs, CFOs, and many others make multiples of the
amount you cited.

Post by k***@yahoo.com
Good luck.
Those guys are already selling their "second" homes that they bought
to try to catch the "housing boom" wave and make money.
Bye the way.
Nevada will be getting hammered more and more soon.
40% of the jobs in the Las Vegas area are construction related.

[k***@yahoo.com]

Post by E***@spamblock.panix.com

Post by k***@yahoo.com
$4836 / 40hrs = $120/ hour
Who makes that besides Attorneys and Doctors?

Why just 40 hours?
What about 2 income families?

Sorry, for startes it should be 30/hour for a 160 hour month for one
person.
Still that's two people each making 15/hour or $2400/mo.
That is still more than most average people make.
What ever happened to "stay at home Mom's."
It's called slavery when everyone "must" work to pay the bills.
Remember 50 years ago, one wage earner in the home was enough to buy a
house that only cost about $20,000.
The same home, my Dad's for instance, now costs about $400,000.

Post by E***@spamblock.panix.com
ANd BTW, salesmen, CEOs, CFOs, and many others make multiples of the
amount you cited.

Yea sure but we are not talking high income earners to buy "median"
priced homes. They are the ones buyinh the million dollar homes and a
$300,000 second or third home that they are selling or losing now.
And there are NOT millions of high paid CEOs etc.
Why are you changing the subject anyways?
The calculation was about "median" home prices.

Post by E***@spamblock.panix.com

Post by k***@yahoo.com
Good luck.
Those guys are already selling their "second" homes that they bought
to try to catch the "housing boom" wave and make money.
Bye the way.
Nevada will be getting hammered more and more soon.
40% of the jobs in the Las Vegas area are construction related.

I heard Nevada now has the highest forclosure rate in the country.

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by k***@yahoo.com

Post by E***@spamblock.panix.com

Post by k***@yahoo.com
$4836 / 40hrs = $120/ hour
Who makes that besides Attorneys and Doctors?

Why just 40 hours?
What about 2 income families?

Sorry, for startes it should be 30/hour for a 160 hour month for one
person.
Still that's two people each making 15/hour or $2400/mo.
That is still more than most average people make.
What ever happened to "stay at home Mom's."
It's called slavery when everyone "must" work to pay the bills.
Remember 50 years ago, one wage earner in the home was enough to buy a
house that only cost about $20,000.
The same home, my Dad's for instance, now costs about $400,000.

Post by E***@spamblock.panix.com
ANd BTW, salesmen, CEOs, CFOs, and many others make multiples of the
amount you cited.

Yea sure but we are not talking high income earners to buy "median"
priced homes. They are the ones buyinh the million dollar homes and a
$300,000 second or third home that they are selling or losing now.
And there are NOT millions of high paid CEOs etc.
Why are you changing the subject anyways?
The calculation was about "median" home prices.

Post by E***@spamblock.panix.com

Post by k***@yahoo.com
Good luck.
Those guys are already selling their "second" homes that they bought
to try to catch the "housing boom" wave and make money.
Bye the way.
Nevada will be getting hammered more and more soon.
40% of the jobs in the Las Vegas area are construction related.

I heard Nevada now has the highest forclosure rate in the country.

True...drive through the 19th century ghost towns to see a preview of
what is coming for the 21th century ghost towns.

TMT

[Curly Surmudgeon]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:05:18 -0700, Winston_Smith wrote:

Americans pay for housing boom's excess

By MADLEN READ and JOE BEL BRUNO, AP Business Writers Wed Jan 16, 4:37 PM
ET

NEW YORK - The bill for America's excessive borrowing during the housing
boom has arrived, and more people are having trouble paying it.

JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Wells Fargo & Co., two of the nation's biggest
banks, on Wednesday joined a growing chorus warning that the subprime
mortgage mess is just the start of a sweeping lending crisis. And some
fear that consumers falling behind on all kinds of loan payments could tip
the economy's scale toward recession.

Strapped consumers are having a tough time making payments on credit
cards, home-equity loans, and even for their cars. This has caused three
of the top five U.S. commercial banks that have already reported damaging
fourth-quarter results to set aside some $12.5 billion to cover future
loan losses -- and that number will likely grow as the year wears on.

Problems in the subprime mortgage market are rapidly spilling over into
other areas of the economy. No matter what the experts call it -- a
recession, slowdown or even the makings of a depression -- it's clear
banks are under mounting pressure to be more cautious about lending.

"If consumption growth stagnates, the odds of a recession are incredibly
high," said Andrew Bernard, director of the Center for International
Business at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth. "All the pieces of
household financial health are starting to be shakier, especially at the
low end."

He and others are paying close attention to what top U.S. banks say about
their customers' payment habits. Many view this as an early indicator
about where the overall economy is headed, but there are other signs that
are troublesome.

The stock market has had its worst start to the year in three decades,
with investors rattled by signs from the Labor Department that
unemployment is on the rise and retail sales are on the decline. Further,
the Commerce Department reported Wednesday that higher costs for energy
and food in 2007 pushed inflation for the year up by the largest amount in
17 years.

There was no sign of a turnaround in the last few months of the year. The
Federal Reserve reported that the economy grew at a slower pace in late
November and December as credit problems intensified and consumers
tightened their spending.

To some, it appears that the Fed came to its rate-cutting decision in
August a bit too late. Others point to the falling dollar and surging oil
prices, factors that usually prevent the central bank from easing its
monetary policy.

While debate persists about the Fed's timing and the extent of the
slowdown, bank executives -- who have scrambled to prepare for another
tumble in home prices and higher unemployment in 2008, feel academic
definitions are beside the point.

"We're not predicting a recession -- it's not our job -- but we're
prepared," JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon told analysts after the nation's
third-largest bank wrote down $1.3 billion and said profit dropped 34
percent.

His financial institution didn't do all that bad. Rival Citigroup Inc.
fared the worst during the fourth quarter, losing $9.83 billion after
writing down the value of its portfolio of mortgage and mortgage-backed
products by $18.1 billion.

Wells Fargo, a more traditional bank that avoided last year's trading
woes, saw its profit fall 38 percent due to troubles with home equity loan
and mortgage defaults.

JPMorgan is girding for home prices to decline further in 2008 by 5
percent to 10 percent; Citigroup's estimate of 7 percent falls within that
range, too.

"The banks are the infrastructure for everything, the heartbeat of the
market," said Chris Johnson, president of Johnson Research Group. "They
need to be fixed before the market, and economy, can move forward with
confidence. They need to get all their dirty laundry out there."

Banks and card companies like American Express Co. -- which warned last
week that it would add $440 million to loan loss provisions -- said in
the regions where home prices are declining, card default rates are rising
faster. The same goes for auto loans, subprime mortgages and home equity
loans in these areas, which include Florida, Michigan and California.

A big reason for the rise in credit card default rates is that they are
returning to more usual levels following a change in bankruptcy law that
sent rates lower for a time. But the fact that more losses are being seen
in the weaker parts of the country shows the increase is economically
driven as well.

Analysts believe this means one thing: Consumers will be the ones paying
for years of lax lending standards by U.S. financial institutions. Many
will become more restrictive about who gets credit in a bid to stem future
losses -- and that could curb consumer spending, which accounts for more
than two-thirds of the economy.

"We've pushed the envelope," Johnson said. "Along with the joy of a market
that goes as high as ours is the agony of when it starts to correct
itself."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080116/ap_on_bi_ge/bank_earns;_ylt=AvTZmjQtQ1Qz8pAeYLhxAMms0NUE

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Curly Surmudgeon]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:05:18 -0700, Winston_Smith wrote:

Home construction drops 25 percent

By MARTIN CRUTSINGER, AP Economics Writer Thu Jan 17, 9:20 AM ET

WASHINGTON - The prolonged slump in housing pushed construction of new
homes in 2007 down by the largest amount in 27 years with the expectation
that the downturn has further to go.

The Commerce Department reported Thursday that construction was started on
1.353 million new homes and apartments last year, down 24.8 percent from
2006. It was the second biggest annual decline on record, exceeded only by
a 26 percent plunge in 1980, a period when the Federal Reserve was pushing
interest rates to post-World War II records in an effort to combat an
entrenched inflation problem.

Many economists believe that the current slump in housing will rival the
dive in the late 1970s and early 1980s when housing construction fell for
four straight years before beginning to recover after the severe 1981-82
recession. For December, construction fell by a bigger-than-expected 14.2
percent.

In other economic news, the Labor Department said the number of newly laid
off workers filing applications for unemployment benefits dropped by
21,000 last week to 301,000. That marked the third consecutive weekly
decline and occurred even though the government reported that the
unemployment rate increased sharply in December.

Some economists believe the current housing troubles will push the country
into another recession as consumers are staggered by the steep drop in
housing -- which has pushed home values down in many parts of the
country. Consumers also have been faced with rising mortgage defaults and
a severe credit crunch which has made loans harder to obtain.

Various recent reports have increased those worries including news that
unemployment in December shot up to 5 percent, rising by the largest
amount in one months since the country was reeling from the 2001 terrorist
attacks. Many large financial institutions have announced billions of
dollars of losses due to the meltdown in subprime mortgages.

The drop in construction in December was bigger than economists had been
expecting and reflected weakness in all parts of the country. Housing
construction fell by 30.8 percent in the Midwest and was down 25.8 percent
in the Northeast and 19.6 percent in the West. The decline in the South
was a smaller 3.3 percent.

Economists said the weakness showed that the housing correction was
getting worse since the turmoil in financial markets hit in August.

"Builders have finally thrown in the towel," said Ian Shepherdson, chief
U.S. economist at High Frequency Economics. "This is a precondition for
recovery as it will eventually reduce the inventory overhang. But there is
a long way to go."

For December, housing starts totaled 1.006 million units at an annual
rate. In an ominous sign for the future, applications for building permits
fell by 8.1 percent to an annual rate of 1.068 million units. That marked
the seventh consecutive monthly decline and reflected the fact that
builders have been slashing production plans in an effort to deal with a
glut of unsold homes.

A survey of builder sentiment prepared by the National Association of Home
Builders came in at the second-lowest level on record in January at a
reading of 19. That was up slightly from the record low of 18 set in
December. The index has been below 20 since October as builders struggle
to deal with slumping demand, rising housing defaults and tighter lending
standards.

Last week, KB Home, one of the nation's largest homebuilders, said losses
in the fourth quarter had ballooned to more than $770 million.

Many economists believe the housing sector will remain weak through this
year before starting to stage a rebound in 2009.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080117/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/economy


-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Curly Surmudgeon]

Post by Winston_Smith
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.

Phew! I liquidated my last U.S. real estate holding in October 2005 and
can still feel the doorknob hitting me in the rear...

Realtors say that the three most important things in real estate is
Location, location, and location. Market timing, in my opinion, has
always vied for first slot.

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[k***@yahoo.com]

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Winston_Smith
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.

Phew! I liquidated my last U.S. real estate holding in October 2005 and
can still feel the doorknob hitting me in the rear...
Realtors say that the three most important things in real estate is
Location, location, and location. Market timing, in my opinion, has
always vied for first slot.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the whole history of how we got here:
http://rense.com/general80/fore.htm

<snip>
In part:
2008 - Citigroup. The repeal (Clinton's Financial Modernization Bill)
of FDR's Banking Act - was responsible for the creation of Citigroup
as an all-purpose financial supermarket and too - big- to fail banking
marvel..(much like the unsinkable Titanic?). Investment bankers
lobbied for thirty years to repeal the Glass-Steagall Act, which
separated commercial banking from its investment house cousins. Wall
Street hated the law but failed year after year to win repeal. The
problem was always the Democrats (since Republicans were supporters).

In enters a reincarnation of our old carnival snake oil salesman. Bill
Clinton delivered his 'New Democrat Party' with a lot of the usual
scripted rhetoric. Meaningless made up words. The combination of
insurance, investment banking, and old-line commercial banks, have
multiplied the conflicts of interest within banks, despite so-called
'firewalls'. Much like Enron, placing some deals in off-balance sheet
entries did not insulate Citigroup from losses in its swollen subprime
housing lending. The bank (Citigroup) has so far written off something
like $15 billion and there's more to come. Ah - but meantime we're
going to see these presidential canidates argue over who loves Blacks
the most - or the miracle of Hillary's tears ! It's interesting that
in the Neveda debates (Nov 15), when Hillary was asked about Citigroup
and the subprime debacle she responded, that that she was concerned
over these huge pools of money, and that Congress and the Federal
Reserve need to ask questions. She went on to remark on how mortgages
(subprime and conventional) were being bundled and sold to foreign
investors. THE 64,000 QUESTION (yet to be addressed in these debates)
was not asked: 'Senator Clinton, its a known fact, that Citigroup
would not exist, except for President Clinton's repeal of FDR's
'Banking Act'. Would you (other canidates) not agree with the 1971
Supreme Court ruling, Goldman Sachs, and testimony by economists, that
we have re-enacted the same conflicts of interest that were in place
before the Great Depression and thus are doing the very same things
that the Rothschild's and J.P Morgan were guilty of?' This is the
question that has yet to be asked in any of these
'debates' (Republican or Democrat). The media and canidates blame the
victims or wander off into some escoteric meaningless gibberish.
<snip>

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Winston_Smith
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.

Phew!  I liquidated my last U.S. real estate holding in October 2005 and
can still feel the doorknob hitting me in the rear...
Realtors say that the three most important things in real estate is
Location, location, and location.  Market timing, in my opinion, has
always vied for first slot.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
               http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the whole history of how we got here:http://rense.com/general80/fore.htm
<snip>
2008 - Citigroup. The repeal (Clinton's Financial Modernization Bill)
of FDR's Banking Act - was responsible for the creation of Citigroup
as an all-purpose financial supermarket and too - big- to fail banking
marvel..(much like the unsinkable Titanic?). Investment bankers
lobbied for thirty years to repeal the Glass-Steagall Act, which
separated commercial banking from its investment house cousins. Wall
Street hated the law but failed year after year to win repeal. The
problem was always the Democrats (since Republicans were supporters).
In enters a reincarnation of our old carnival snake oil salesman. Bill
Clinton delivered his 'New Democrat Party' with a lot of the usual
scripted rhetoric. Meaningless made up words. The combination of
insurance, investment banking, and old-line commercial banks, have
multiplied the conflicts of interest within banks, despite so-called
'firewalls'. Much like Enron, placing some deals in off-balance sheet
entries did not insulate Citigroup from losses in its swollen subprime
housing lending. The bank (Citigroup) has so far written off something
like $15 billion and there's more to come. Ah - but meantime we're
going to see these presidential canidates argue over who loves Blacks
the most - or the miracle of Hillary's tears ! It's interesting that
in the Neveda debates (Nov 15), when Hillary was asked about Citigroup
and the subprime debacle she responded, that that she was concerned
over these huge pools of money, and that Congress and the Federal
Reserve need to ask questions. She went on to remark on how mortgages
(subprime and conventional) were being bundled and sold to foreign
investors. THE 64,000 QUESTION (yet to be addressed in these debates)
was not asked: 'Senator Clinton, its a known fact, that Citigroup
would not exist, except for President Clinton's repeal of FDR's
'Banking Act'. Would you (other canidates) not agree with the 1971
Supreme Court ruling, Goldman Sachs, and testimony by economists, that
we have re-enacted the same conflicts of interest that were in place
before the Great Depression and thus are doing the very same things
that the Rothschild's and J.P Morgan were guilty of?' This is the
question that has yet to be asked in any of these
'debates' (Republican or Democrat). The media and canidates blame the
victims or wander off into some escoteric meaningless gibberish.
<snip>- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

It is not going to work....this is ALL happening on Bush's watch.

And a little hint....anything Clinton MIGHT have done Bush had plenty
of time to undo.

Yep...LOTS of REPUBLICANS are going to lose those silver spoons they
were born with in this crash.

TMT

[Winston_Smith]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 23:54:34 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by k***@yahoo.com
2008 - Citigroup. The repeal (Clinton's Financial Modernization Bill)
of FDR's Banking Act - was responsible for the creation of Citigroup

It is not going to work....this is ALL happening on Bush's watch.
And a little hint....anything Clinton MIGHT have done Bush had plenty
of time to undo.

It's hardly all Bush's fault. Yes, he gets plenty of blame for not
even trying. He gets plenty of blame for adding gasoline to the fire.
It's not all Clinton's fault. The roots of this go back to the 50s if
not the 30s. It's been a bipartisan effort.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
Yep...LOTS of REPUBLICANS are going to lose those silver spoons they
were born with in this crash.

Certainly. And a lot of Democrat fat cats will get neutered too. But
I'm more concerned with Joe Sixpack starving or dying of exposure
because we have allowed a succession of idiots to run rampant in
Washington.

The blame game does nothing to help. I'm not attempting to get anyone
off the hook. Let's blame them all and get on with finding a
solution.

I've heard nothing from the candidates of either party that even
acknowledges that the problem even exists. The sole exception to that
is Ron Paul. Unfortunately the words "snowball" and "hell" come to
mind. For Paul and for Joe.

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 23:54:34 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by k***@yahoo.com
2008 - Citigroup. The repeal (Clinton's Financial Modernization Bill)
of FDR's Banking Act - was responsible for the creation of Citigroup

It is not going to work....this is ALL happening on Bush's watch.
And a little hint....anything Clinton MIGHT have done Bush had plenty
of time to undo.

It's hardly all Bush's fault.  Yes, he gets plenty of blame for not
even trying.  He gets plenty of blame for adding gasoline to the fire.
It's not all Clinton's fault.  The roots of this go back to the 50s if
not the 30s.  It's been a bipartisan effort.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
Yep...LOTS of REPUBLICANS are going to lose those silver spoons they
were born with in this crash.

Certainly.  And a lot of Democrat fat cats will get neutered too.  But
I'm more concerned with Joe Sixpack starving or dying of exposure
because we have allowed a succession of idiots to run rampant in
Washington.  
The blame game does nothing to help.  I'm not attempting to get anyone
off the hook.  Let's blame them all and get on with finding a
solution.  
I've heard nothing from the candidates of either party that even
acknowledges that the problem even exists.  The sole exception to that
is Ron Paul.  Unfortunately the words "snowball" and "hell" come to
mind.  For Paul and for Joe.

Bush has had ample time to turn this situation around.

The finger is pointing straight at him and the GOP.

Guess who the voters will hold accountable in November?

TMT

[Curly Surmudgeon]

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Winston_Smith
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 23:54:34 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by k***@yahoo.com
2008 - Citigroup. The repeal (Clinton's Financial Modernization Bill)
of FDR's Banking Act - was responsible for the creation of Citigroup

It is not going to work....this is ALL happening on Bush's watch.
And a little hint....anything Clinton MIGHT have done Bush had plenty
of time to undo.

It's hardly all Bush's fault.  Yes, he gets plenty of blame for not
even trying.  He gets plenty of blame for adding gasoline to the fire.
It's not all Clinton's fault.  The roots of this go back to the 50s if
not the 30s.  It's been a bipartisan effort.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
Yep...LOTS of REPUBLICANS are going to lose those silver spoons they
were born with in this crash.

Certainly.  And a lot of Democrat fat cats will get neutered too.  But
I'm more concerned with Joe Sixpack starving or dying of exposure
because we have allowed a succession of idiots to run rampant in
Washington.  
The blame game does nothing to help.  I'm not attempting to get anyone
off the hook.  Let's blame them all and get on with finding a
solution.  
I've heard nothing from the candidates of either party that even
acknowledges that the problem even exists.  The sole exception to that
is Ron Paul.  Unfortunately the words "snowball" and "hell" come to
mind.  For Paul and for Joe.

Bush has had ample time to turn this situation around.
The finger is pointing straight at him and the GOP.
Guess who the voters will hold accountable in November?

Irrelevant, the Democrats will continue the same, old, tired, programs
moving a bit of the war budget to social services but the basic trend will
continue unabated.

As long as people vote for the status quo they will get the status quo.

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Winston_Smith]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:20:10 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Winston_Smith
I've heard nothing from the candidates of either party that even
acknowledges that the problem even exists.  The sole exception to that
is Ron Paul.  Unfortunately the words "snowball" and "hell" come to
mind.  For Paul and for Joe.

Bush has had ample time to turn this situation around.
The finger is pointing straight at him and the GOP.
Guess who the voters will hold accountable in November?

How would we turn this situation around? I confess it's beyond me. A
simple explanation would be very instructive to me.

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:20:10 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Winston_Smith
I've heard nothing from the candidates of either party that even
acknowledges that the problem even exists.  The sole exception to that
is Ron Paul.  Unfortunately the words "snowball" and "hell" come to
mind.  For Paul and for Joe.

Bush has had ample time to turn this situation around.
The finger is pointing straight at him and the GOP.
Guess who the voters will hold accountable in November?

How would we turn this situation around?  I confess it's beyond me.  A
simple explanation would be very instructive to me.

There is NO SIMPLE FIX.

What has brought this to a head is the bogus run up on real estate in
the years under Bush.

Fraud ...pure and simple....and it was allowed to happen under the
Bush Administration.

Those who are responsible have already left the building...with their
profits.

There will be many people losing an incredible amount of wealth before
it is over.

You are seeing billions and billions of losses now...well you have not
seen anything yet.

I expect the free market to make its correction despite any attempts
to soften the fall.

I also expect the vulture culture to exert itself...even now we see
foreign buyers taking advantage of the distressed markets...the blood
bath has yet to start.

TMT

[k***@yahoo.com]

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Winston_Smith
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.

Phew! I liquidated my last U.S. real estate holding in October 2005 and
can still feel the doorknob hitting me in the rear...
Realtors say that the three most important things in real estate is
Location, location, and location. Market timing, in my opinion, has
always vied for first slot.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the whole history of how we got here:http://rense.com/general80/fore.htm
<snip>
2008 - Citigroup. The repeal (Clinton's Financial Modernization Bill)
of FDR's Banking Act - was responsible for the creation of Citigroup
as an all-purpose financial supermarket and too - big- to fail banking
marvel..(much like the unsinkable Titanic?). Investment bankers
lobbied for thirty years to repeal the Glass-Steagall Act, which
separated commercial banking from its investment house cousins. Wall
Street hated the law but failed year after year to win repeal. The
problem was always the Democrats (since Republicans were supporters).
In enters a reincarnation of our old carnival snake oil salesman. Bill
Clinton delivered his 'New Democrat Party' with a lot of the usual
scripted rhetoric. Meaningless made up words. The combination of
insurance, investment banking, and old-line commercial banks, have
multiplied the conflicts of interest within banks, despite so-called
'firewalls'. Much like Enron, placing some deals in off-balance sheet
entries did not insulate Citigroup from losses in its swollen subprime
housing lending. The bank (Citigroup) has so far written off something
like $15 billion and there's more to come. Ah - but meantime we're
going to see these presidential canidates argue over who loves Blacks
the most - or the miracle of Hillary's tears ! It's interesting that
in the Neveda debates (Nov 15), when Hillary was asked about Citigroup
and the subprime debacle she responded, that that she was concerned
over these huge pools of money, and that Congress and the Federal
Reserve need to ask questions. She went on to remark on how mortgages
(subprime and conventional) were being bundled and sold to foreign
investors. THE 64,000 QUESTION (yet to be addressed in these debates)
was not asked: 'Senator Clinton, its a known fact, that Citigroup
would not exist, except for President Clinton's repeal of FDR's
'Banking Act'. Would you (other canidates) not agree with the 1971
Supreme Court ruling, Goldman Sachs, and testimony by economists, that
we have re-enacted the same conflicts of interest that were in place
before the Great Depression and thus are doing the very same things
that the Rothschild's and J.P Morgan were guilty of?' This is the
question that has yet to be asked in any of these
'debates' (Republican or Democrat). The media and canidates blame the
victims or wander off into some escoteric meaningless gibberish.
<snip>- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

It is not going to work....this is ALL happening on Bush's watch.

Economic flows take months if not years to manifest change for the
good and bad.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
And a little hint....anything Clinton MIGHT have done Bush had plenty
of time to undo.

No argument.
They are all in cahoots.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
Yep...LOTS of REPUBLICANS are going to lose those silver spoons they
were born with in this crash.
TMT

I have been suggesting a 50 Million American March on DC for years.
We should clean house and start from scratch with a Congress and
Executive that isn't bought and paid for by the Military/Industrial/
Educational/Pharmacutical/Bankster Complex.

Vote for Ron Paul.

[Winston_Smith]

Post by k***@yahoo.com
I have been suggesting a 50 Million American March on DC for years.

And here Bush is without someone of the caliber of MacArthur to
command the troops to fire on citizens and burn their camps.

Post by k***@yahoo.com
We should clean house and start from scratch with a Congress and
Executive that isn't bought and paid for by the Military/Industrial/
Educational/Pharmacutical/Bankster Complex.

Now you are starting to sound like Eisenhower.

Post by k***@yahoo.com
Vote for Ron Paul.

Now you are starting to sound like me.




http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/bonusm.htm

[Curly Surmudgeon]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:05:18 -0700, Winston_Smith wrote:

http://www.sacbee.com/103/v-print/story/643447.html

Home Front: Down in the trenches, pessimism on housing takes hold Home
Front: Builders will need to lower prices, reader says By Jim Wasserman -
***@sacbee.com Published 12:00 am PST Friday, January 18, 2008

The customary real estate experts have had their say about the state of
the Sacramento-area housing market for 2008. In last week's column their
consensus called for a rough first half of this year, a more stable second
half and some sense of a turnaround and recovery in early 2009.

But we asked, too, for your take on the market. The responses seemed a
little more pessimistic than the authorities we quoted. Here's a sampling
of fresh opinion from others in the real estate industry and some new
views from street level.

Dave W. Walker, general building contractor in Citrus Heights:

I disagree with all their expert guesses. I have been in the construction
field for over 38 years, and this is the worst I have ever seen the
housing industry. I am in the home-repair business, and some of my
customers have subprime loans, which cut my business way back.

My work went from very strong in September to nothing in December and
nothing but a few fence fixes in January. I have other contractor friends
in the same position. Some, even with good 5 percent 30-year fixed loans
on their own homes, are about to miss their first payment ever because
their customers have the subprimes and have stopped improving their homes.

My personal feeling is that a big problem is only starting. I actually
have sent out my résumé for superintendent jobs because my phone has
stopped ringing.

Diana Sanger, partner with RBI Builder Solutions in Loomis:

What I think: The Sacramento market will not turn around until mid-2010.
This year will be the worst, with 2009 at 2007 levels. By mid-2010, the
market will slowly improve, and 2011 will be a strong year.

Reason: Lower interest rates are a tiny Band-Aid on a gaping wound, way
too late. The California economy will not rebound as quickly as predicted.
Unemployment will increase, and we will see more private builders, maybe
one public builder and more lenders close doors in 2008, causing a further
decline in consumer confidence. Also, many builders are struggling with
maintaining levels of warranty, and that will cause consumer confidence to
diminish as well.

A bright spot: Interested buyers will continue to seek housing in midtown
and downtown if pricing becomes more realistic.

Steve Topper of Sacramento, a former banker who writes an online
newsletter about marketing and advertising:

As for my opinion, 2008 is going to be a bad year for the housing market.
Foreclosures will continue to increase, and housing values will continue
to drop. We are a long way from the bottom. I believe the best guess for
the duration of this correction is that it will take as long to deflate
the bubble as it took to inflate it. So, assuming the bubble started
inflating in 2002 and peaked at the end of 2006, it will take five years
to reach equilibrium, which puts it at the end of 2011.

David Jones, a machinist in Fair Oaks:

I see home prices coming down a lot more, to bring it into line where
people can afford to buy them and also afford to live.

Builders who paid too much for the land in that frenzied market say they
are as low as they can go, but unless they face reality and bring homes
into a price where people can make the house payments and live, they are
not going to sell.

So I think it all comes down to the price of the homes for sale because
people do not want to see themselves buying and getting into the mess
millions of people across this country are in.

Home builder moves on

Longtime Sacramento home-building executive Mike Winn is starting 2008
with a couple of new ventures. Winn, who had been community-planning
director at Mather-based Reynen and Bardis Communities since 2001,
launched Michael Winn Associates this week. It's a land development
consulting venture in Sacramento.

He's also the new 2008 president of the North State Building Industry
Association, a Roseville trade group for Northern California home
builders.

"It's good timing personally for me," Winn said of his departure from
Reynen and Bardis.

Cities sue lenders

In case you didn't see this, the cities of Cleveland and Baltimore, both
stung hard by foreclosures related to subprime loans, are suing banks and
mortgage companies to help pay for the aftermath of their loans.

Cleveland is suing 21 banks and mortgage companies alleging the firms
created a public nuisance in its neighborhoods in violation of state law.
Baltimore is suing San Francisco-based Wells Fargo & Co., alleging the
bank showed a predatory lending pattern in the city's poorest
neighborhoods. Wells Fargo didn't comment on the suit but said in a
statement that it doesn't consider race when making loans.


-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
http://www.sacbee.com/103/v-print/story/643447.html
Home Front: Down in the trenches, pessimism on housing takes hold Home
Front: Builders will need to lower prices, reader says By Jim Wasserman -
The customary real estate experts have had their say about the state of
the Sacramento-area housing market for 2008. In last week's column their
consensus called for a rough first half of this year, a more stable second
half and some sense of a turnaround and recovery in early 2009.
But we asked, too, for your take on the market. The responses seemed a
little more pessimistic than the authorities we quoted. Here's a sampling
of fresh opinion from others in the real estate industry and some new
views from street level.
I disagree with all their expert guesses. I have been in the construction
field for over 38 years, and this is the worst I have ever seen the
housing industry. I am in the home-repair business, and some of my
customers have subprime loans, which cut my business way back.
My work went from very strong in September to nothing in December and
nothing but a few fence fixes in January. I have other contractor friends
in the same position. Some, even with good 5 percent 30-year fixed loans
on their own homes, are about to miss their first payment ever because
their customers have the subprimes and have stopped improving their homes.
My personal feeling is that a big problem is only starting. I actually
have sent out my résumé for superintendent jobs because my phone has
stopped ringing.
What I think: The Sacramento market will not turn around until mid-2010.
This year will be the worst, with 2009 at 2007 levels. By mid-2010, the
market will slowly improve, and 2011 will be a strong year.
Reason: Lower interest rates are a tiny Band-Aid on a gaping wound, way
too late. The California economy will not rebound as quickly as predicted.
Unemployment will increase, and we will see more private builders, maybe
one public builder and more lenders close doors in 2008, causing a further
decline in consumer confidence. Also, many builders are struggling with
maintaining levels of warranty, and that will cause consumer confidence to
diminish as well.
A bright spot: Interested buyers will continue to seek housing in midtown
and downtown if pricing becomes more realistic.
Steve Topper of Sacramento, a former banker who writes an online
As for my opinion, 2008 is going to be a bad year for the housing market.
Foreclosures will continue to increase, and housing values will continue
to drop. We are a long way from the bottom. I believe the best guess for
the duration of this correction is that it will take as long to deflate
the bubble as it took to inflate it. So, assuming the bubble started
inflating in 2002 and peaked at the end of 2006, it will take five years
to reach equilibrium, which puts it at the end of 2011.
I see home prices coming down a lot more, to bring it into line where
people can afford to buy them and also afford to live.
Builders who paid too much for the land in that frenzied market say they
are as low as they can go, but unless they face reality and bring homes
into a price where people can make the house payments and live, they are
not going to sell.
So I think it all comes down to the price of the homes for sale because
people do not want to see themselves buying and getting into the mess
millions of people across this country are in.
Home builder moves on
Longtime Sacramento home-building executive Mike Winn is starting 2008
with a couple of new ventures. Winn, who had been community-planning
director at Mather-based Reynen and Bardis Communities since 2001,
launched Michael Winn Associates this week. It's a land development
consulting venture in Sacramento.
He's also the new 2008 president of the North State Building Industry
Association, a Roseville trade group for Northern California home
builders.
"It's good timing personally for me," Winn said of his departure from
Reynen and Bardis.
Cities sue lenders
In case you didn't see this, the cities of Cleveland and Baltimore, both
stung hard by foreclosures related to subprime loans, are suing banks and
mortgage companies to help pay for the aftermath of their loans.
Cleveland is suing 21 banks and mortgage companies alleging the firms
created a public nuisance in its neighborhoods in violation of state law.
Baltimore is suing San Francisco-based Wells Fargo & Co., alleging the
bank showed a predatory lending pattern in the city's poorest
neighborhoods. Wells Fargo didn't comment on the suit but said in a
statement that it doesn't consider race when making loans.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
               http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this comment is right on...if not conservative...

"As for my opinion, 2008 is going to be a bad year for the housing
market.
Foreclosures will continue to increase, and housing values will
continue
to drop. We are a long way from the bottom. I believe the best guess
for
the duration of this correction is that it will take as long to
deflate
the bubble as it took to inflate it. So, assuming the bubble started
inflating in 2002 and peaked at the end of 2006, it will take five
years
to reach equilibrium, which puts it at the end of 2011. "

It takes longer to recover from a down cycle than a up cycle.

Where will your finances be in 2012?

TMT

[Curly Surmudgeon]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:05:18 -0700, Winston_Smith wrote:

http://www.sacbee.com/103/v-print/story/644060.html

County's median home price down 20 percent By Jim Wasserman -
***@sacbee.com Published 12:19 am PST Friday, January 18, 2008

Priced out of buying a house in 2003, Santiago Avila-Gomez and Stephani
Crespin rented all through the housing boom, then waited out the bust
until the closing days of 2007. That's when they finally scored the house
of their dreams.

The house was built in 2004 in a new community just outside the Pocket in
south Sacramento. It had been repossessed by the lender and cost the
married couple $214,500. The original price four years ago: $455,000.

That's how 2007 crawled to a close for the Sacramento-area housing market.

Statistics released Thursday showed that median sales prices declined 20
percent during the year in Sacramento County for new and existing homes
combined. Property researcher DataQuick Information Systems Inc. declared
it the steepest fall for a large urban county in California.

The county's median sales prices are now at levels of four years ago. Only
three other counties came close: Riverside County was down 18 percent
during 2007, San Bernardino County prices fell 15 percent, and Solano
County was down 16 percent.

Other DataQuick highlights:

* The eight-county region saw 2,440 homes change hands in December,
bringing the 2007 tally of escrow closings in Amador, El Dorado, Nevada,
Placer, Sacramento, Sutter, Yolo and Yuba counties to 33,627. That's about
9,900 fewer than 2006.

* Sacramento County, with 1,372 closed escrows, and Placer County, with
525, had their fewest sales for a December since 1995. The region then was
in the grip of a housing downturn aggravated by recession, job losses and
military base closings.

* In the closing month of 2007, 38.3 percent of homes sold to buyers in
the eight-county region were homes that had been repossessed by banks,
according to DataQuick.

In Sacramento County, 45.9 percent of December sales were properties
marketed by banks and loan servicers to buyers like Crespin and
Avila-Gomez.

The two said the bank paid their closing costs on the four-bedroom house
on a 6,000-square-foot lot. It then wrote them a $4,500 check to replace
the air conditioning unit that had been stolen during the year the home
sat vacant.

"We just got so lucky. We still pinch ourselves when we get up," said
Crespin, a consultant to the wireless industry.

Her husband, an attorney, said the family moved in on Dec. 22. "My
mother-in-law came from Detroit, and we celebrated Christmas without a
tree, but we were in our new home," he said.

DataQuick statistics show sales prices are continuing to fall throughout
most of the region as banks are gaining on home builders and individual
sellers as the primary driver of sales.

* Sacramento County's median sales prices slipped to $280,000 in
December for existing and new homes combined. That's down more than
$100,000 and 27.6 percent off August 2005 peaks, and the lowest prices
since February 2004, DataQuick reported.

* Placer County's $373,000 median sales price in December was 29 percent
off an August 2005 high of $525,000. The county's median sales price was
last at this level in January 2004.

The median is that point where half the houses sold for more and half sold
for less.

* Sales prices in El Dorado County dropped the least in 2007, falling
just 2.8 percent.

* Values fell 13.3 percent for the year in Placer County and 19.9
percent in Yolo County. They fell 18.1 percent in Yuba County, 16.2
percent in Nevada County and 11 percent in Amador County. Figures for
Sutter County weren't available.

The decline in prices in 2007 prompted Sacramento-based researcher
TrendGraphix to trumpet the "resurrection of the $200,000 home."

Owner Mike Lyon said 12 percent of the 13,994 homes for sale in El Dorado,
Placer, Sacramento and Yolo counties are now priced below $200,000. The
majority are homes repossessed by banks.

In December 2006, 2 percent of homes for sale in the four counties were
priced below $200,000.

Real estate industry officials say banks and loan servicers will continue
to push down Sacramento-area home sales prices during 2008.

"What you're starting to see right now with the foreclosure inventory
swelling is the banks are getting aggressive," said Lincoln-based real
estate agent Mike Toste. "They're the ones wheeling. If all their
competition is bank-owned and they drop prices 30 to 40 percent, then
they've got to do the same thing. If they can't sell within 60 to 90 days,
they're getting extremely hungry. I think 2008 is going to be a year to
remember."

The banks' desire to sell comes as mortgage rates continue to fall. On
Thursday, mortgage giant Freddie Mac reported that rates on 30-year fixed
mortgages dropped to 5.69 percent, their lowest level since the summer of
2005.

Still, the prospects for another tough year have some of 2007's buyers
already re-examining their decisions. John Reed moved to Sacramento last
year from Portland when he became a computer programmer for the state. He
bought a new home in West Sacramento last July.

"I have a lot of second thoughts now," Reed said. "I knew the prices were
dropping a little, but I didn't expect them to go down so much. They've
probably gone down 10 percent in six months."


-- Regards, Curly
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[Curly Surmudgeon]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:05:18 -0700, Winston_Smith wrote:

Merrill posts worst quarter in its history

By Tim McLaughlin Thu Jan 17, 2:59 PM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Merrill Lynch & Co Inc (MER.N) reported about $16
billion in mortgage-related write-downs and adjustments on Thursday in the
worst quarter of the company's history. ADVERTISEMENT

Shares of the world's largest brokerage fell more than 9 percent as
investors worried about more write-downs and exposure to capital-strapped
bond insurers.

The stock's 49 percent decline over the past year has slashed nearly $42
billion from Merrill's peak market capitalization of $84.7 billion in late
January 2007.

The start of a booming year for investment banking fees and big bets on
subprime mortgages ended in dismal fashion. Merrill's fourth-quarter net
loss was $9.8 billion, or $12.01 a share, compared with year-earlier
profit of $2.3 billion, or $2.41 a share.

"The loss seems higher than expected," said Peter Boockvar, an equity
strategist at Miller Tabak & Co in New York. "The write-down, I guess, was
large, about in line. But we knew that it was going to be bad."

The approximately $16 billion write-down, with credit adjustments,
compares with analysts' expectations of $10 billion to $15 billion.

For 2007, Merrill lost about $8 billion on second-half write-downs and
adjustments of about $24 billion. Lax risk management led to the ouster of
Stan O'Neal as chief executive in late October.

CTW Investment Group, a union pension fund adviser, wrote a letter to
Merrill board members that questions the role they played in overseeing
top management.

"In particular, we question whether finance committee director John
Finnegan's long personal and business relationship with former CEO Stanley
O'Neal ... compromised his willingness to rein in Mr. O'Neal's aggressive
risk and outsized compensation," CTW Executive Director William Patterson
wrote.

Finnegan, who is chairman and CEO of Chubb Corp, worked with O'Neal during
their days at General Motors Corp. He is chairman's of Merrill's
compensation committee and also serves on the finance committee.

Recently named CEO John Thain said there are no current plans to make any
changes on Merrill's board.

During a conference call, Thain said Merrill would ease risk-taking, but
has enough capital to move forward after $12.8 billion in infusions from
U.S. and foreign investors.

But Thain, who called the fourth-quarter results "unacceptable," said he
could not promise that the company will avoid further write-downs on
subprime mortgage-related positions.

There will be no dramatic job cuts, he said, and the company is not
interested in selling its stakes in Bloomberg LP and asset manager
BlackRock Inc (BLK.N).

WRITE-DOWNS

The fourth-quarter loss included $11.5 billion in write-downs on U.S.
collateralized debt obligations and subprime mortgage-related securities.
Merrill also had to make a negative adjustment of $3.1 billion to reflect
soured hedges with bond insurers.

In addition, Merrill took write-downs of $900 million on exposure to
"Alt-A" loans, which are a slightly better credit risk than subprime, and
on mortgages outside the United States. The company also wrote-down $356
million worth of exposure to leveraged loans and commercial real estate.

Lehman Brothers analyst Roger Freeman said he calculated $16.6 billion in
charges had flowed through Merrill's income statement, plus another $1.3
billion through its investment securities portfolio, for a total of $17.9
billion. That amount, however, was partially offset by $1.3 billion in
gains on structured debt.

Fourth-quarter results eclipsed the $2.3 billion loss in the third
quarter, when Merrill recorded $8.4 billion in write-downs.

"I expected a large (loss) number, and it was," said Rose Grant, a
portfolio manager at Eastern Investment Advisors in Boston.

"We were looking for a 'kitchen sink' quarter, where we can get these
problems behind us and look at other areas of the business and see where
the earnings are coming from," said Rose, whose firm has $2 billion under
management. "We're about 80 percent there."

Overshadowed by Merrill's credit implosion were stellar results from the
company's brokerage and investment banking operations.

Investment banking revenue climbed 22 percent to $4.9 billion in 2007.
Meanwhile, the global wealth management division, which includes an army
of brokers, produced net revenue of $14 billion, up 18 percent from the
prior year.

The wealth management franchise attracted $30 billion in new money from
clients in the fourth quarter. Total clients assets stood at $1.8 trillion
at year's end.

Bank of America analyst Michael Hecht said that despite Merrill's
stumbles, the company was still in position to keep its best employees and
attract new talent.

Merrill shares were down $5.09 at $50 in afternoon New York Stock Exchange
trade.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/merrilllynch_dc;_ylt=Ahox74i7LYe60tXvrWfNQPis0NUE

-- Regards, Curly
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[Curly Surmudgeon]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:05:18 -0700, Winston_Smith wrote:

Ambac Tumbles on More Subprime Fallout The bond insurer joins the
financial industry's frenzy to raise capital as it warns of a
fourth-quarter loss

by David Bogoslaw

Shock waves from the subprime-fueled credit crisis continue to reverberate
through the financial industry

on Jan. 16 as Ambac Financial Group (ABK) pre-announced a gargantuan net
loss of $32.83 per share for the fourth quarter.

And with the prospect of losing its coveted triple-A rating, the
struggling bond insurer said it plans to raise at least $1 billion,
following fast in the footsteps of rival financial guarantor MBIA Inc.
(MBI), which announced its own recapitalization program a week earlier.

The rush to bring in capital comes as these companies anticipate
substantial writedowns on their securities portfolios for the latest
quarter. And that strategy has now cost Ambac its long-time chief
executive, Robert Genader, whose disagreement with aspects of the
capital-raising plan influenced his decision to retire, effective
immediately, according to a company filing to the Securities and Exchange
Commission.

On Jan. 16, Ambac said that the projected fair market value of its credit
derivative portfolio for the fourth quarter came to an estimated loss of
$5.4 billion, pre-tax, and $3.5 billion, after tax. Roughly $1.1 billion
of the pre-tax, mark-to-market loss represents estimated credit impairment
related to some collateralized debt obligations of asset-backed securities
trades, transactions backed mostly by high-risk, subprime residential
mortgage-backed securities that Ambac has downgraded to junk status.

The New York-based company also warned it will report a loss provision of
about $143 million, pre-tax, for the latest quarter related chiefly to
underperforming home equity line of credit and closed-end second lien
residential mortgage-backed securitizations.

The losses are expected to result in a net loss of $32.83 per share for
the fourth quarter, up to $5.80 of which is an estimated operating loss
due to losses on CDOs and home equity line of credit transactions. The
company also said it expects its book value to be roughly $21.00 per share
at the end of 2007. Ambac moved its fourth-quarter results release up one
week to Jan. 22.

Ambac's stock was trading 35.3% lower at $13.67 on Jan. 16, after hitting
a fresh 52-week low of $13.38 earlier in the day. Shares of both Ambac and
MBIA got hammered on Jan 8 in response to Morgan Stanley cutting its
profit estimates for the two companies, citing deterioration in the credit
markets

While the company's per share-loss is eye-popping, its total loss pales in
comparison with a $38.6 billion writedown taken by General Motors in the
third quarter of 2007 and AOL Time Warner's $45.5 billion charge in the
fourth quarter of 2002, the largest in the history of the S&P 500 index.

"The $5.4 billion loss was bigger than I thought, although I knew it would
be something big," said Gary Ransom, an analyst at Fox-Pitt Kelton Cochran
in West Hartford, Conn. "The surprise was more the $1.1 billion of actual
losses," which is the actual credit impairment and which the company is
categorizing as an operating loss. It's more like an insured loss, even
though it's accounted for as mark-to-market," he said. (Fox-Pitt or its
affiliates may seek compensation from investment banking within the next
three months.)

The remainder of the $5.4 billion is considered purely mark-to-market and
not something the company actually expects to take losses in. Ambac will
get that money back as the bonds it has insured mature and the loss on
them accrues toward zero over time, he said. Of course, Ambac would get
the capital back sooner if a recovery in the credit markets came more
quickly.

Ransom, who rates Ambac in line with other financial guarantors and has an
overweight rating on the entire sector, cut his 2008 earnings forecast to
$4.85 from $7.55 per share and lowered his price target to $24.

The plan Ambac announced to boost its capital base by issuing at least $1
billion of equity and equity-linked securities, with additional capital
possibly to be raised from reinsurance or by issuing corporate debt is
geared toward preserving its triple-A rating from Fitch Ratings. Until the
Moody's announcement of Jan. 17, the company's existing capital had met or
exceeded the triple-A requirements of Moody's and fellow rating agency
Standard & Poor's. (S&P has not commented on a potential downgrade of

Ambac also plans to preserve capital by cutting its quarterly dividend to
seven cents from 21 cents per share. MBIA cut its dividend by 62% to 13
cents per share on Jan. 9.

Analyst Tamara Kravec at Banc of America Securities said in a Jan. 16 note
that she was disappointed that Ambac was raising such a large portion of
equity capital. She predicted that at the current share price the
transaction would dilute the company's earnings and book value by 30% to
35%, with the lower book value not including $4.3 billion in
mark-to-market adjustments that aren't credit impairments. (BAS has
provided investment banking services for Ambac within the past 12 months
and expects to provide them within the next three months.)

Morningstar Inc. (MORN) takes the risk of a downgrade from Fitch more
seriously, however, seeing the triple-A rating as critical to Ambac's
ability to attract future business. In a Jan. 8 note, Morningstar analyst
Jim Ryan warned of the unknown levels of risk carried by insured
derivatives that "in extreme distress situations could cause claims
sufficient to wipe out Ambac's capital." The risk of a lower credit rating
could also trigger capital calls, whether necessary or not, that could
exceed the Ambac's resources, it said.

Morningstar advised would-be investors to consider the insolvency risk
before buying the company's stock.

Ambac appointed Michael A. Callen as chairman and interim chief executive,
succeeding Genader. Callen has been a presiding director and a member of
the Board's Audit and Risk Assessment, Compensation and Governance
committees.

The company is searching for a permanent CEO both internally and
externally.

A change in leadership at this time poses a challenge in an already
difficult environment for Ambac, analyst Tamara Kravac said in a Banc of
America Securities note on Jan. 16.

Some analysts are warning that Ambac may lose market share this year to
such rivals as Assured Guaranty Ltd. (AGO) and FSA Group FPO (FSA.AX),
which are seen as having avoided major CDO and mortgage-backed security
problems. Warren Buffett's entrance into the municipal bond insurance
industry is also expected to siphon off customers from Ambac and other
insurers with exposure to toxic securities.

Ransom at Fox-Pitt Kelton said he doesn't think Ambac will have a problem
writing new business, although in the near term the company will probably
attract less business due to concerns about its portfolio risk.

He doesn't see the upstart Berkshire Capital Assurance, a unit of
Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (BRKA) posing a real competitive threat in 2008,
as it still needs to put its infrastructure in place and to get its
insurance business rated by the ratings agencies.

Ambac's insurance services will also be in demand by states like
California that need to spread their risk among a range of financial
guarantors to avoid having all their eggs in one basket, he added.

http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/jan2008/pi20080116_740896.htm?campaign_id=yhoo




-- Regards, Curly
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[Winston_Smith]

Nice collection to tell the tale of the slide into the sea. It's sort
of like the latter days in Atlantis.

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:20:13 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Ambac Tumbles on More Subprime Fallout The bond insurer joins the
financial industry's frenzy to raise capital as it warns of a
fourth-quarter loss
by David Bogoslaw
Shock waves from the subprime-fueled credit crisis continue to reverberate
through the financial industry
on Jan. 16 as Ambac Financial Group (ABK) pre-announced a gargantuan net
loss of $32.83 per share for the fourth quarter.
And with the prospect of losing its coveted triple-A rating, the
struggling bond insurer said it plans to raise at least $1 billion,
following fast in the footsteps of rival financial guarantor MBIA Inc.
(MBI), which announced its own recapitalization program a week earlier.

...snip

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
"The $5.4 billion loss was bigger than I thought, although I knew it would
be something big," said Gary Ransom, an analyst at Fox-Pitt Kelton Cochran
in West Hartford, Conn. "The surprise was more the $1.1 billion of actual
losses," which is the actual credit impairment and which the company is
categorizing as an operating loss. It's more like an insured loss,

They are starting to talk a lot about how things that aren't "really"
loses because they are insured. Just how deep are the pockets of the
insurance companies? I bet about as deep as the banks and financial
financiers pockets were. Easily emptied by small claims.

I read that there are something like 1,200 smaller banks that count on
lines of credit they have open from Countrywide Bank. If CW goes
under they ALL lose their LOC and are immediately bankrupt too. The
buy out by Bank of America holds that off but I'm starting to read
folks wondering how solvent BofA is. Especially now that they took so
much loss to buy CW. I wonder how deep the pockets of the FDIC, etc
are.

The system is designed for the occasional badly managed bank or the
odd corrupt accountant. It is not nearly robust enough to deal with
huge interlocking systemic failures.

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
even
though it's accounted for as mark-to-market," he said. (Fox-Pitt or its
affiliates may seek compensation from investment banking within the next
three months.)
The remainder of the $5.4 billion is considered purely mark-to-market and
not something the company actually expects to take losses in. Ambac will
get that money back as the bonds it has insured mature and the loss on
them accrues toward zero over time, he said. Of course, Ambac would get
the capital back sooner if a recovery in the credit markets came more
quickly.

IF they do get paid off. That is the name of the bet they have on
their hands.

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Ransom, who rates Ambac in line with other financial guarantors and has an
overweight rating on the entire sector, cut his 2008 earnings forecast to
$4.85 from $7.55 per share and lowered his price target to $24.
The plan Ambac announced to boost its capital base by issuing at least $1
billion of equity and equity-linked securities, with additional capital

Would that be anything like crawling to the Chinese and begging for
another dog biscuit? I love it. "Acquiring new capital" sounds so
much better than "taking out yet another whopping big loan to hold off
bankruptcy".

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/jan2008/pi20080116_740896.htm?campaign_id=yhoo

[Curly Surmudgeon]

Post by Winston_Smith
Nice collection to tell the tale of the slide into the sea. It's sort
of like the latter days in Atlantis.

Yet the Bushites, neocons, christers, and authoritarians wish to continue
as we go offering Guiliani, a fascist, Huckabee, a solder for christ,
McCain who wants to be in Iraq 100 years, Obama, a nice guy without an
iota of principle, Hillary, who votes Republican/neocon, Thompson, asleep
at the wheel, Edwards, too little, too late, and Kucinich.

What is wrong with America which such a slate of candidates is offered as
our last great hope?

-- Regards, Curly
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[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Nice collection to tell the tale of the slide into the sea.  It's sort
of like the latter days in Atlantis.

Yet the Bushites, neocons, christers, and authoritarians wish to continue
as we go offering Guiliani, a fascist, Huckabee, a solder for christ,
McCain who wants to be in Iraq 100 years, Obama, a nice guy without an
iota of principle, Hillary, who votes Republican/neocon, Thompson, asleep
at the wheel, Edwards, too little, too late, and Kucinich.
What is wrong with America which such a slate of candidates is offered as
our last great hope?
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
               http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it is called "scaping the bottom of the barrel" in America.

TMT

[Winston_Smith]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:20:13 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Ambac Tumbles on More Subprime Fallout The bond insurer joins the
"The $5.4 billion loss was bigger than I thought, although I knew it would
be something big," said Gary Ransom, an analyst at Fox-Pitt Kelton Cochran
in West Hartford, Conn. "The surprise was more the $1.1 billion of actual
losses," which is the actual credit impairment and which the company is
categorizing as an operating loss. It's more like an insured loss,

They are starting to talk a lot about how things that aren't "really"
loses because they are insured. Just how deep are the pockets of the
insurance companies? I bet about as deep as the banks and financial
financiers pockets were. Easily emptied by small claims.

http://www.reuters.com/article/usMktRpt/idUSN1833872120080118?sp=true
In another troubling development, bond insurer Ambac on Friday lost
its vital triple-A credit rating from Fitch. The cut, the first by one
of the top ratings agencies on a bond insurer, puts at risk billions
of dollars of corporate and municipal bonds covered by the company.
Ambac and MBIA, the largest U.S. bond insurer, are also on watch for
possible downgrades by Moody's Investors Service.

[Curly Surmudgeon]

Post by Winston_Smith

Post by Winston_Smith
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:20:13 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Ambac Tumbles on More Subprime Fallout The bond insurer joins the
"The $5.4 billion loss was bigger than I thought, although I knew it would
be something big," said Gary Ransom, an analyst at Fox-Pitt Kelton Cochran
in West Hartford, Conn. "The surprise was more the $1.1 billion of actual
losses," which is the actual credit impairment and which the company is
categorizing as an operating loss. It's more like an insured loss,

They are starting to talk a lot about how things that aren't "really"
loses because they are insured. Just how deep are the pockets of the
insurance companies? I bet about as deep as the banks and financial
financiers pockets were. Easily emptied by small claims.

http://www.reuters.com/article/usMktRpt/idUSN1833872120080118?sp=true
In another troubling development, bond insurer Ambac on Friday lost
its vital triple-A credit rating from Fitch. The cut, the first by one
of the top ratings agencies on a bond insurer, puts at risk billions
of dollars of corporate and municipal bonds covered by the company.
Ambac and MBIA, the largest U.S. bond insurer, are also on watch for
possible downgrades by Moody's Investors Service.

It's horrid watching the Titanic sink.

-- Regards, Curly
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http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Robert Sturgeon]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:19:51 -0700, Winston_Smith

Post by Winston_Smith

Post by Winston_Smith
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:20:13 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Ambac Tumbles on More Subprime Fallout The bond insurer joins the
"The $5.4 billion loss was bigger than I thought, although I knew it would
be something big," said Gary Ransom, an analyst at Fox-Pitt Kelton Cochran
in West Hartford, Conn. "The surprise was more the $1.1 billion of actual
losses," which is the actual credit impairment and which the company is
categorizing as an operating loss. It's more like an insured loss,

They are starting to talk a lot about how things that aren't "really"
loses because they are insured. Just how deep are the pockets of the
insurance companies? I bet about as deep as the banks and financial
financiers pockets were. Easily emptied by small claims.

http://www.reuters.com/article/usMktRpt/idUSN1833872120080118?sp=true
In another troubling development, bond insurer Ambac on Friday lost
its vital triple-A credit rating from Fitch. The cut, the first by one
of the top ratings agencies on a bond insurer, puts at risk billions
of dollars of corporate and municipal bonds covered by the company.

No, it's the fact that the insurer really isn't as sound as
the insureds used to suppose that puts the money at risk.
Or more accurately still, it was the investment decisions
already made that put the money at risk; what the reduced
rating does is warn the financiers that their previous
decisions weren't as sound as they had assumed. The money
always was at the risk now recognized. What has changed is
the recognition, not the risk.

Post by Winston_Smith
Ambac and MBIA, the largest U.S. bond insurer, are also on watch for
possible downgrades by Moody's Investors Service.

When you read about those bond insurance schemes, you
quickly realize that they are a "house of cards." They only
"work" so long as they aren't needed. There is no
conceivable way they could pay up if there was ever more
than a tiny number of defaults. But that is true of all
such financial insurance schemes, including FDIC. The way
they work is by maintaining confidence in the system. If
that confidence is ever shaken, the scheme collapses -- just
like the people's belief in the emperors new clothes.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

[Curly Surmudgeon]

Post by Robert Sturgeon
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:19:51 -0700, Winston_Smith

Post by Winston_Smith

Post by Winston_Smith
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:20:13 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Ambac Tumbles on More Subprime Fallout The bond insurer joins the
"The $5.4 billion loss was bigger than I thought, although I knew it would
be something big," said Gary Ransom, an analyst at Fox-Pitt Kelton Cochran
in West Hartford, Conn. "The surprise was more the $1.1 billion of actual
losses," which is the actual credit impairment and which the company is
categorizing as an operating loss. It's more like an insured loss,

They are starting to talk a lot about how things that aren't "really"
loses because they are insured. Just how deep are the pockets of the
insurance companies? I bet about as deep as the banks and financial
financiers pockets were. Easily emptied by small claims.

http://www.reuters.com/article/usMktRpt/idUSN1833872120080118?sp=true
In another troubling development, bond insurer Ambac on Friday lost
its vital triple-A credit rating from Fitch. The cut, the first by one
of the top ratings agencies on a bond insurer, puts at risk billions
of dollars of corporate and municipal bonds covered by the company.

No, it's the fact that the insurer really isn't as sound as
the insureds used to suppose that puts the money at risk.
Or more accurately still, it was the investment decisions
already made that put the money at risk; what the reduced
rating does is warn the financiers that their previous
decisions weren't as sound as they had assumed. The money
always was at the risk now recognized. What has changed is
the recognition, not the risk.

Post by Winston_Smith
Ambac and MBIA, the largest U.S. bond insurer, are also on watch for
possible downgrades by Moody's Investors Service.

When you read about those bond insurance schemes, you
quickly realize that they are a "house of cards." They only
"work" so long as they aren't needed. There is no
conceivable way they could pay up if there was ever more
than a tiny number of defaults. But that is true of all
such financial insurance schemes, including FDIC. The way
they work is by maintaining confidence in the system. If
that confidence is ever shaken, the scheme collapses -- just
like the people's belief in the emperors new clothes.

Exactly. That is why we now teeter on the precipice. This administration
has destroyed confidence in the system with 7 years of economic abuse.

Now trying to print and throw $150,000,000,000.00 at the public to buy
their confidence is too late. People are beginning to see the idiocy of
this last ditch effort, the house of cards are falling.

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Strabo]

Post by Robert Sturgeon
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:19:51 -0700, Winston_Smith

Post by Winston_Smith

Post by Winston_Smith
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:20:13 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Ambac Tumbles on More Subprime Fallout The bond insurer joins the
"The $5.4 billion loss was bigger than I thought, although I knew it would
be something big," said Gary Ransom, an analyst at Fox-Pitt Kelton Cochran
in West Hartford, Conn. "The surprise was more the $1.1 billion of actual
losses," which is the actual credit impairment and which the company is
categorizing as an operating loss. It's more like an insured loss,

They are starting to talk a lot about how things that aren't "really"
loses because they are insured. Just how deep are the pockets of the
insurance companies? I bet about as deep as the banks and financial
financiers pockets were. Easily emptied by small claims.

http://www.reuters.com/article/usMktRpt/idUSN1833872120080118?sp=true
In another troubling development, bond insurer Ambac on Friday lost
its vital triple-A credit rating from Fitch. The cut, the first by one
of the top ratings agencies on a bond insurer, puts at risk billions
of dollars of corporate and municipal bonds covered by the company.

No, it's the fact that the insurer really isn't as sound as
the insureds used to suppose that puts the money at risk.
Or more accurately still, it was the investment decisions
already made that put the money at risk; what the reduced
rating does is warn the financiers that their previous
decisions weren't as sound as they had assumed. The money
always was at the risk now recognized. What has changed is
the recognition, not the risk.

Post by Winston_Smith
Ambac and MBIA, the largest U.S. bond insurer, are also on watch for
possible downgrades by Moody's Investors Service.

When you read about those bond insurance schemes, you
quickly realize that they are a "house of cards." They only
"work" so long as they aren't needed. There is no
conceivable way they could pay up if there was ever more
than a tiny number of defaults. But that is true of all
such financial insurance schemes, including FDIC. The way
they work is by maintaining confidence in the system. If
that confidence is ever shaken, the scheme collapses -- just
like the people's belief in the emperors new clothes.

Insightful, as usual.

Post by Robert Sturgeon
Robert Sturgeon
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

[Too_Many_Tools]

Nice collection to tell the tale of the slide into the sea.  It's sort
of like the latter days in Atlantis.
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:20:13 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Ambac Tumbles on More Subprime Fallout The bond insurer joins the
financial industry's frenzy to raise capital as it warns of a
fourth-quarter loss
by David Bogoslaw
Shock waves from the subprime-fueled credit crisis continue to reverberate
through the financial industry
on Jan. 16 as Ambac Financial Group (ABK) pre-announced a gargantuan net
loss of $32.83 per share for the fourth quarter.
And with the prospect of losing its coveted triple-A rating, the
struggling bond insurer said it plans to raise at least $1 billion,
following fast in the footsteps of rival financial guarantor MBIA Inc.
(MBI), which announced its own recapitalization program a week earlier.

   ...snip

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
"The $5.4 billion loss was bigger than I thought, although I knew it would
be something big," said Gary Ransom, an analyst at Fox-Pitt Kelton Cochran
in West Hartford, Conn. "The surprise was more the $1.1 billion of actual
losses," which is the actual credit impairment and which the company is
categorizing as an operating loss. It's more like an insured loss,

They are starting to talk a lot about how things that aren't "really"
loses because they are insured.  Just how deep are the pockets of the
insurance companies?  I bet about as deep as the banks and financial
financiers pockets were.  Easily emptied by small claims.
I read that there are something like 1,200 smaller banks that count on
lines of credit they have open from Countrywide Bank.  If CW goes
under they ALL lose their LOC and are immediately bankrupt too.  The
buy out by Bank of America holds that off but I'm starting to read
folks wondering how solvent BofA is.  Especially now that they took so
much loss to buy CW.  I wonder how deep the pockets of the FDIC, etc
are.
The system is designed for the occasional badly managed bank or the
odd corrupt accountant.  It is not nearly robust enough to deal with
huge interlocking systemic failures.

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
even
though it's accounted for as mark-to-market," he said. (Fox-Pitt or its
affiliates may seek compensation from investment banking within the next
three months.)
The remainder of the $5.4 billion is considered purely mark-to-market and
not something the company actually expects to take losses in. Ambac will
get that money back as the bonds it has insured mature and the loss on
them accrues toward zero over time, he said. Of course, Ambac would get
the capital back sooner if a recovery in the credit markets came more
quickly.

IF they do get paid off.  That is the name of the bet they have on
their hands.

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Ransom, who rates Ambac in line with other financial guarantors and has an
overweight rating on the entire sector, cut his 2008 earnings forecast to
$4.85 from $7.55 per share and lowered his price target to $24.
The plan Ambac announced to boost its capital base by issuing at least $1
billion of equity and equity-linked securities, with additional capital

Would that be anything like crawling to the Chinese and begging for
another dog biscuit?  I love it.  "Acquiring new capital" sounds so
much better than "taking out yet another whopping big loan to hold off
bankruptcy".

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/jan2008/pi20080116_74089...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I read that there are something like 1,200 smaller banks that count on
lines of credit they have open from Countrywide Bank. If CW goes
under they ALL lose their LOC and are immediately bankrupt too. The
buy out by Bank of America holds that off but I'm starting to read
folks wondering how solvent BofA is. Especially now that they took so
much loss to buy CW. I wonder how deep the pockets of the FDIC, etc
are.

The pockets of the FDIC is as deep as the pockets of the American
taxpayers.

I think you are starting to understand how far this can fall...

Anyone reading this should be reviewing the history of the The Great
Depression...don't expect to sleep for a few days after you do.

TMT

[Winston_Smith]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:46:43 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Winston_Smith
I read that there are something like 1,200 smaller banks that count on
lines of credit they have open from Countrywide Bank. If CW goes
under they ALL lose their LOC and are immediately bankrupt too. The
buy out by Bank of America holds that off but I'm starting to read
folks wondering how solvent BofA is. Especially now that they took so
much loss to buy CW. I wonder how deep the pockets of the FDIC, etc
are.

The pockets of the FDIC is as deep as the pockets of the American
taxpayers.

Which begs the question, how deep are the taxpayers pockets? That's a
rhetorical question but I don't think all that deep. Anyway, "let me
tax you some more so I can pay you back 80% of your claim against the
bank" is not a ringing speech for any politician to make.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I think you are starting to understand how far this can fall...

Oh, I've understood it for at least a few years now. That's why I've
been posting the news fast and furious. I'm as positioned as well as
I can but it's like having a snug house in the middle of a forest
fire. You are going to get singed anyway, metal roof or not.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
Anyone reading this should be reviewing the history of the The Great
Depression...don't expect to sleep for a few days after you do.

Agreed. My parents were newlyweds when it hit so I have second hand
memories from them and towns people. The last year or so I've read at
least a dozen books on it ranging from economic tomes to how Joe
Sixpack managed to live.

You are right, it's not good bedtime reading. I'm still pondering my
suspicion that Bush can't read and that would explain much.

[Tim May]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:46:43 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Winston_Smith
I read that there are something like 1,200 smaller banks that count on
lines of credit they have open from Countrywide Bank. If CW goes
under they ALL lose their LOC and are immediately bankrupt too. The
buy out by Bank of America holds that off but I'm starting to read
folks wondering how solvent BofA is. Especially now that they took so
much loss to buy CW. I wonder how deep the pockets of the FDIC, etc
are.

The pockets of the FDIC is as deep as the pockets of the American
taxpayers.

Which begs the question, how deep are the taxpayers pockets? That's a
rhetorical question but I don't think all that deep. Anyway, "let me
tax you some more so I can pay you back 80% of your claim against the
bank" is not a ringing speech for any politician to make.

This is for the scamsters, the dirt people who got the liar loans.

The version for the _rest_ of us is "Let me tax you some more so we can
pay off the bad loans given out to Mexicans, trailer trash, and all
those who took out liar loans and now can't pay."

The burnoff of 20 mllion muds who took out liar loans will be glorious
to behold. Many of them will go to prison for fraud, but most of them
will be selling their children on the streets and drinking dog piss out
of hubcaps.

Glorious. Fuck them all dead.

Also, another 40 milliion who will not actually be foreclosed upon will
suddenly become a whole lot more willing to do actual work. I need a
lot of cheap laborers, and not the Mexican gutter trash kind. Looks
like a lot of white laborers are going to be available.

Bad news for the even worse negro and Mexican trash.


--Tim May

[Curly Surmudgeon]

Post by Tim May

Post by Winston_Smith
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:46:43 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Winston_Smith
I read that there are something like 1,200 smaller banks that count on
lines of credit they have open from Countrywide Bank. If CW goes
under they ALL lose their LOC and are immediately bankrupt too. The
buy out by Bank of America holds that off but I'm starting to read
folks wondering how solvent BofA is. Especially now that they took so
much loss to buy CW. I wonder how deep the pockets of the FDIC, etc
are.

The pockets of the FDIC is as deep as the pockets of the American
taxpayers.

Which begs the question, how deep are the taxpayers pockets? That's a
rhetorical question but I don't think all that deep. Anyway, "let me
tax you some more so I can pay you back 80% of your claim against the
bank" is not a ringing speech for any politician to make.

This is for the scamsters, the dirt people who got the liar loans.
The version for the _rest_ of us is "Let me tax you some more so we
can pay off the bad loans given out to Mexicans, trailer trash, and all
those who took out liar loans and now can't pay.

Dunno about the rest of the USA but here in California the majority of
liar loans were taken out by speculators and first-time buyers. Not many
Mexicans could get even liar loans for the half-million dollar 3br/2ba
homes here.

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Sue]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:33:48 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Tim May

Post by Winston_Smith
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:46:43 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Winston_Smith
I read that there are something like 1,200 smaller banks that count on
lines of credit they have open from Countrywide Bank. If CW goes
under they ALL lose their LOC and are immediately bankrupt too. The
buy out by Bank of America holds that off but I'm starting to read
folks wondering how solvent BofA is. Especially now that they took so
much loss to buy CW. I wonder how deep the pockets of the FDIC, etc
are.

The pockets of the FDIC is as deep as the pockets of the American
taxpayers.

Which begs the question, how deep are the taxpayers pockets? That's a
rhetorical question but I don't think all that deep. Anyway, "let me
tax you some more so I can pay you back 80% of your claim against the
bank" is not a ringing speech for any politician to make.

This is for the scamsters, the dirt people who got the liar loans.
The version for the _rest_ of us is "Let me tax you some more so we
can pay off the bad loans given out to Mexicans, trailer trash, and all
those who took out liar loans and now can't pay.

Dunno about the rest of the USA but here in California the majority of
liar loans were taken out by speculators and first-time buyers. Not many
Mexicans could get even liar loans for the half-million dollar 3br/2ba
homes here.

I had a client who was an illegal Mexican young lady who got a
mortgage with no problem. Her income didn't come near what the
payment was so I asked her how she managed this. She said they (the
mtg company) didn't ask her for anything. Nothing!! She was renting
out a room to make the payment, but I doubt she could pay the
utilities based on the total income she was reporting to me (which, of
course, may not have been the truth). I wish I could remember who
this was so I could check to see if she still has her house.
Sue

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Sue
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:33:48 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Tim May

Post by Winston_Smith
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:46:43 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Winston_Smith
I read that there are something like 1,200 smaller banks that count on
lines of credit they have open from Countrywide Bank.  If CW goes
under they ALL lose their LOC and are immediately bankrupt too.  The
buy out by Bank of America holds that off but I'm starting to read
folks wondering how solvent BofA is.  Especially now that they took so
much loss to buy CW.  I wonder how deep the pockets of the FDIC, etc
are.

The pockets of the FDIC is as deep as the pockets of the American
taxpayers.

Which begs the question, how deep are the taxpayers pockets?  That's a
rhetorical question but I don't think all that deep.  Anyway, "let me
tax you some more so I can pay you back 80% of your claim against the
bank" is not a ringing speech for any politician to make.

This is for the scamsters, the dirt people who got the liar loans.
The version for the _rest_ of us is "Let me tax you some more so we
can pay off the bad loans given out to Mexicans, trailer trash, and all
those who took out liar loans and now can't pay.

Dunno about the rest of the USA but here in California the majority of
liar loans were taken out by speculators and first-time buyers.  Not many
Mexicans could get even liar loans for the half-million dollar 3br/2ba
homes here.

I had a client who was an illegal Mexican young lady who got a
mortgage with no problem.  Her income didn't come near what the
payment was so I asked her how she managed this.  She said they (the
mtg company) didn't ask her for anything.  Nothing!!  She was renting
out a room to make the payment, but I doubt she could pay the
utilities based on the total income she was reporting to me (which, of
course, may not have been the truth).  I wish I could remember who
this was so I could check to see if she still has her house.
Sue

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
               http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Actually this is a good example of a "liar loan".

I hate that term.

Anyone can apply for a loan..it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the loan
company to determine if the applicant is able to meet the loan
requirements.

"Liar loan" is a term used by those in the industry who are trying to
avoid taking responsibility for their own shortcomings.

TMT

[Sue]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:07:18 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Sue
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:33:48 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Tim May

Post by Winston_Smith
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:46:43 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Winston_Smith
I read that there are something like 1,200 smaller banks that count on
lines of credit they have open from Countrywide Bank.  If CW goes
under they ALL lose their LOC and are immediately bankrupt too.  The
buy out by Bank of America holds that off but I'm starting to read
folks wondering how solvent BofA is.  Especially now that they took so
much loss to buy CW.  I wonder how deep the pockets of the FDIC, etc
are.

The pockets of the FDIC is as deep as the pockets of the American
taxpayers.

Which begs the question, how deep are the taxpayers pockets?  That's a
rhetorical question but I don't think all that deep.  Anyway, "let me
tax you some more so I can pay you back 80% of your claim against the
bank" is not a ringing speech for any politician to make.

This is for the scamsters, the dirt people who got the liar loans.
The version for the _rest_ of us is "Let me tax you some more so we
can pay off the bad loans given out to Mexicans, trailer trash, and all
those who took out liar loans and now can't pay.

Dunno about the rest of the USA but here in California the majority of
liar loans were taken out by speculators and first-time buyers.  Not many
Mexicans could get even liar loans for the half-million dollar 3br/2ba
homes here.

I had a client who was an illegal Mexican young lady who got a
mortgage with no problem.  Her income didn't come near what the
payment was so I asked her how she managed this.  She said they (the
mtg company) didn't ask her for anything.  Nothing!!  She was renting
out a room to make the payment, but I doubt she could pay the
utilities based on the total income she was reporting to me (which, of
course, may not have been the truth).  I wish I could remember who
this was so I could check to see if she still has her house.
Sue

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
               http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Actually this is a good example of a "liar loan".
I hate that term.
Anyone can apply for a loan..it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the loan
company to determine if the applicant is able to meet the loan
requirements.
"Liar loan" is a term used by those in the industry who are trying to
avoid taking responsibility for their own shortcomings.
TMT

When I got my mortgage in 1998 I practically had to give over my
medical records and elementary school report cards. OK. Not that bad
but they checked *everything*. This, even though I made a down
payment of $105,000 on a $142,000 house. Worth a bit more now, but
falling fast. I don't care. Gonna die in this house. Not too soon,
I hope. :o)
Sue

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Sue
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:07:18 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Sue
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:33:48 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Tim May

Post by Winston_Smith
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:46:43 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Winston_Smith
I read that there are something like 1,200 smaller banks that count on
lines of credit they have open from Countrywide Bank.  If CW goes
under they ALL lose their LOC and are immediately bankrupt too.  The
buy out by Bank of America holds that off but I'm starting to read
folks wondering how solvent BofA is.  Especially now that they took so
much loss to buy CW.  I wonder how deep the pockets of the FDIC, etc
are.

The pockets of the FDIC is as deep as the pockets of the American
taxpayers.

Which begs the question, how deep are the taxpayers pockets?  That's a
rhetorical question but I don't think all that deep.  Anyway, "let me
tax you some more so I can pay you back 80% of your claim against the
bank" is not a ringing speech for any politician to make.

This is for the scamsters, the dirt people who got the liar loans.
The version for the _rest_ of us is "Let me tax you some more so we
can pay off the bad loans given out to Mexicans, trailer trash, and all
those who took out liar loans and now can't pay.

Dunno about the rest of the USA but here in California the majority of
liar loans were taken out by speculators and first-time buyers.  Not many
Mexicans could get even liar loans for the half-million dollar 3br/2ba
homes here.

I had a client who was an illegal Mexican young lady who got a
mortgage with no problem.  Her income didn't come near what the
payment was so I asked her how she managed this.  She said they (the
mtg company) didn't ask her for anything.  Nothing!!  She was renting
out a room to make the payment, but I doubt she could pay the
utilities based on the total income she was reporting to me (which, of
course, may not have been the truth).  I wish I could remember who
this was so I could check to see if she still has her house.
Sue

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
               http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Actually this is a good example of a "liar loan".
I hate that term.
Anyone can apply for a loan..it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the loan
company to determine if the applicant is able to meet the loan
requirements.
"Liar loan" is a term used by those in the industry who are trying to
avoid taking responsibility for their own shortcomings.
TMT

When I got my mortgage in 1998 I practically had to give over my
medical records and elementary school report cards.  OK.  Not that bad
but they checked *everything*.  This, even though I made a down
payment of $105,000 on a $142,000 house.  Worth a bit more now, but
falling fast.  I don't care.  Gonna die in this house.  Not too soon,
I hope.  :o)
Sue- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

We hope not too soon either. ;<)

I too had to go through many hoops to get the mortgage years ago.

Obviously something changed.

I strongly suspect it was the oversight that supposely was in place
over lending institutions..that comes from Washington.

Hmmm...now what changed since 2000 that might have removed that
Federal oversight...oh yeah...Bush got elected and put his probusiness
people in power.

That is what I think has really happened...no check and balance in
place and we all get to pay for it.

Probusiness can be another name for lender fraud.

TMT

[h***@hotmail.com]

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.
The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.
Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.
"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."
Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.
The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

Winton, if you're in the house buying mode, you'll find the prices
aren't dropping nearly as much as your claims. Go ahead and try to
get a home at those greatly reduced prices. Go ahead and try it.
Best of luck.

[Curly Surmudgeon]

Post by h***@hotmail.com

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.
The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.
Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.
"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."
Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.
The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

Winton, if you're in the house buying mode, you'll find the prices
aren't dropping nearly as much as your claims. Go ahead and try to
get a home at those greatly reduced prices. Go ahead and try it.
Best of luck.

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California. What is your definition of "greatly
reduced"? Short sales are now a fact of life.

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[unknown]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:51:42 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Post by h***@hotmail.com

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.
The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.
Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.
"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."
Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.
The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

Winton, if you're in the house buying mode, you'll find the prices
aren't dropping nearly as much as your claims. Go ahead and try to
get a home at those greatly reduced prices. Go ahead and try it.
Best of luck.

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California. What is your definition of "greatly
reduced"? Short sales are now a fact of life.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I live in socal and as usual you are full of shit........16 percent
seems to be the norm.......wtf do you get 50 percent?
Daveb

[Curly Surmudgeon]

Post by unknown
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:51:42 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Post by h***@hotmail.com

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.
The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.
Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.
"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."
Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.
The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

Winton, if you're in the house buying mode, you'll find the prices
aren't dropping nearly as much as your claims. Go ahead and try to
get a home at those greatly reduced prices. Go ahead and try it.
Best of luck.

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California. What is your definition of "greatly
reduced"? Short sales are now a fact of life.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I live in socal and as usual you are full of shit.

Right, you live in SoCal and I'm full of shit. Great logic, not to
mention an unwarranted attack. Do you commonly begin a discussion in this
manner? Do you get the logical and rational response or the emotional
outburst you seem to desire?

Post by unknown
.......16 percent
seems to be the norm.......wtf do you get 50 percent?
Daveb

Apples and oranges. I say "more houses" and you respond "norm". With
almost 20,000 homes on the local market and thousands of unadvertised
foreclosures there are more homes at 50% under market of 2 years ago than
I can purchase. Was your attack due to failed or intentional
miscomprehension?

I don't pay 16% under market in good times. If you'll read the posting
elsewhere in this thread:

"The house was built in 2004 in a new community just outside the Pocket in
south Sacramento. It had been repossessed by the lender and cost the
married couple $214,500. The original price four years ago: $455,000"

you'll see that that 50% under the market of 2 years ago isn't abnormal at
all. In this published case the price is 53% off. I just paid $165k for
a house 5 homes away from one which is selling for $335k and 2 doors from
one that sold for $342.5k in August 2005. If you are paying more than 30%
off retail then you're not bargaining well.

In this instance I bought a home that had been on the market for about 6
months after repossession by Citi Bank who was exceedingly anxious to
dispose. The house was boarded up, vacant, doesn't even need paint, is in
good shape except for vegetation. It has a positive cash flow with only
20% down.

Now, that I've provided a polite, rational, response to your nasty,
argumentative, ad homenim attack, you've been added to my Bozo Filter and
appear in purple. Do not be surprised if I do not reply in the future, I
rarely respond to Bozos unless they are in a thread I'm monitoring and
have time to waste.

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Post by h***@hotmail.com

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.
The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.
Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.
"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."
Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.
The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

Winton, if you're in the house buying mode, you'll find the prices
aren't dropping nearly as much as your claims.  Go ahead and try to
get a home at those greatly reduced prices.  Go ahead and try it.
Best of luck.

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.  

You're not in California. You're in Argentina. And Winton is in
Arizona.

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
What is your definition of "greatly
reduced"?  Short sales are now a fact of life.
-- Regards, Curly

[Winston_Smith]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.  

You're not in California. You're in Argentina.

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California. I've
posted stories from all over. They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas. People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.  

You're not in California.  You're in Argentina.  

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding. Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California.  I've
posted stories from all over.  

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas.  People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it. "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

[Bob Brock]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:39:35 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.  

You're not in California.  You're in Argentina.  

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding. Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California.  I've
posted stories from all over.  

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas.  People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it. "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

Did any of you pissing, moaning, and complaining make the article
inaccurate? If you don't like the truth, bury your head in the sand
and don't read it.

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Bob Brock
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:39:35 -0800 (PST),

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.  

You're not in California.  You're in Argentina.  

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding.  Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California.  I've
posted stories from all over.  

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas.  People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it.  "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

Did any of you pissing, moaning, and complaining make the article
inaccurate?  If you don't like the truth, bury your head in the sand
and don't read it.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The article does not represent most housing markets.

[Bob Brock]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:20:15 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Bob Brock
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:39:35 -0800 (PST),

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.  

You're not in California.  You're in Argentina.  

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding.  Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California.  I've
posted stories from all over.  

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas.  People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it.  "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

Did any of you pissing, moaning, and complaining make the article
inaccurate?  If you don't like the truth, bury your head in the sand
and don't read it.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The article does not represent most housing markets.

Nor does it claim to. Is that what you were trying to say? That you
agree with the news article.

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Bob Brock
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:20:15 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Bob Brock
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:39:35 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.

You're not in California. You're in Argentina.

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding. Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

Post by h***@hotmail.com
And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California. I've
posted stories from all over.

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas. People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it. "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

Did any of you pissing, moaning, and complaining make the article
inaccurate? If you don't like the truth, bury your head in the sand
and don't read it.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The article does not represent most housing markets.

Nor does it claim to. Is that what you were trying to say? That you
agree with the news article.

The article does not say that is doesn't represent most markets.

[Winston_Smith]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:05:51 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com
The article does not say that is doesn't represent most markets.

Second time. Try to pay attention.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent

The first sentence in both articles. The first half of the first
sentence.

Does "San Diego County" mean "most markets" in Cheese language?

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:05:51 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com
The article does not say that is doesn't represent most markets.

Second time.  Try to pay attention.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent

The first sentence in both articles.  The first half of the first
sentence.
Does "San Diego County" mean "most markets" in Cheese language?

I don't see the disclaimer.

[Winston_Smith]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:20:15 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Bob Brock

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

I wouldn't have to if Bush was doing it, now would I?

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Bob Brock
Did any of you pissing, moaning, and complaining make the article
inaccurate?  If you don't like the truth, bury your head in the sand
and don't read it.- Hide quoted text -

HHC is P&Ming about the fact that Bush is under fire and there is no
way to lie his way out of it this time. That's very disconcerting for
a NeoCon war monger that has two or three more wars to finance.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
The article does not represent most housing markets.

Perhaps that's why the articles say in their first paragraph that they
are about California, specifically San Diego Country. You are the
only one that wants to think it is meant to represent everywhere.

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Bob Brock
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent

More intentional misunderstanding from a NeoCon apologist to obscure
the sad facts of Bush's economy.

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Bob Brock
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:20:15 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Bob Brock

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

I wouldn't have to if Bush was doing it, now would I?

You didn't have to at all. Yet you "feel" compelled to explain things
that don't concern you.

And why do you think Bush needs to explain it?

Post by Bob Brock

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Bob Brock
Did any of you pissing, moaning, and complaining make the article
inaccurate? If you don't like the truth, bury your head in the sand
and don't read it.

HHC is P&Ming about the fact that Bush is under fire and there is no
way to lie his way out of it this time. That's very disconcerting for
a NeoCon war monger that has two or three more wars to finance.

How did Bush enter this thread? Oh, yeh. Almost forgot... it's all
Bush's fault somehow.

Post by Bob Brock

Post by h***@hotmail.com
The article does not represent most housing markets.

Perhaps that's why the articles say in their first paragraph that they
are about California, specifically San Diego Country. You are the
only one that wants to think it is meant to represent everywhere.

You are the one who want to take a piece of local news and spread it
to Arizona, Ohio and North Dakota.

Post by Bob Brock
<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Bob Brock
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent

More intentional misunderstanding from a NeoCon apologist to obscure
the sad facts of Bush's economy.

Your attributions are screwed up. The "San Diego County..." is from
Brock.

You both might as well get back to talking down the economy as if San
Diego represents Arizona, Ohio and North Dakota.

[Winston_Smith]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:15:34 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Your attributions are screwed up. The "San Diego County..." is from
Brock.

Wrong again, NeoCon breath. I started this thread.
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>

The orignal post contained two articles.

Third time. Try to pay attention.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent

[Bob Brock]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:15:34 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Your attributions are screwed up. The "San Diego County..." is from
Brock.

ROTFLMAO. Cheese used to have entertainment value. He doesn't even
have that anymore. I simply ignore him most of the time these days.

Post by Winston_Smith
Wrong again, NeoCon breath. I started this thread.
The orignal post contained two articles.
Third time. Try to pay attention.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:15:34 -0800 (PST),

Your attributions are screwed up.  The "San Diego County..." is from
Brock.

Wrong again, NeoCon breath.  I started this thread.
The orignal post contained two articles.
Third time.  Try to pay attention.

My reader was screwed up. Sorry.

So back to how Bush got into the thread. How? Why?

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Bob Brock
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:39:35 -0800 (PST),

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.  

You're not in California.  You're in Argentina.  

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding.  Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California.  I've
posted stories from all over.  

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas.  People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it.  "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

Did any of you pissing, moaning, and complaining make the article
inaccurate?  If you don't like the truth, bury your head in the sand
and don't read it.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The article does not represent most housing markets.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Wrong...they do...just the percentages change...but they are all
downward.

TMT

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Bob Brock
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:39:35 -0800 (PST),

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.  

You're not in California.  You're in Argentina.  

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding.  Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California.  I've
posted stories from all over.  

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas.  People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it.  "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

Did any of you pissing, moaning, and complaining make the article
inaccurate?  If you don't like the truth, bury your head in the sand
and don't read it.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The article does not represent most housing markets.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Wrong...they do...just the percentages change...but they are all
downward.
TMT

See Winston???? You've convinced Tweedle Many Tools that it is
representative of all markets.

And actually, some markets are upward.

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Bob Brock
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:39:35 -0800 (PST),

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.  

You're not in California.  You're in Argentina.  

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding.  Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California.  I've
posted stories from all over.  

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas.  People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it.  "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

Did any of you pissing, moaning, and complaining make the article
inaccurate?  If you don't like the truth, bury your head in the sand
and don't read it.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

The article does not represent most housing markets.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Wrong...they do...just the percentages change...but they are all
downward.
TMT

See Winston????  You've convinced Tweedle Many Tools that it is
representative of all markets.
And actually, some markets are upward.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Wrong Cheezy...they are all downward.

Got any upward...post them.

Or is that too tough for you.

TMT

[Richard J. Edwards]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.

You're not in California. You're in Argentina.

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding. Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California. I've
posted stories from all over.

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas. People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it. "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

From conversations with our local real estate office owner/agent, the North
Dakota real estate market has not taken much of a hit. Good crop land is
still in demand and the price per acre is holding up pretty well. You will
always find a few folks who have inflated ideas of the worth of their land
but they tend to return to reality once they try to sell. Personally, I
find North Dakota to be a good place to live and especially find it a great
place to grow food.

Richard J. Edwards

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.

You're not in California. You're in Argentina.

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding.  Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California. I've
posted stories from all over.

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas. People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it.  "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.
From conversations with our local real estate office owner/agent, the North
Dakota real estate market has not taken much of a hit.  Good crop land is
still in demand and the price per acre is holding up pretty well.  You will
always find a few folks who have inflated ideas of the worth of their land
but they tend to return to reality once they try to sell.  Personally, I
find North Dakota to be a good place to live and especially find it a great
place to grow food.
Richard J. Edwards

The ND market is playing out all across America. A few hotspots like
some neighborhoods in California and Florida are screwed, but not
representive of almost everyone else.

BTW, Nebraska is a wonderful place, too.

[Winston_Smith]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:23:26 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com
The ND market is playing out all across America. A few hotspots like
some neighborhoods in California and Florida are screwed, but not
representive of almost everyone else.

Why then is the dollar diving?

Why then are both Bush and the Ds planning a stimulus?

Why then is the FED injecting liquidity like there is no tomorrow?

Why then are financial markets around the world having problems?

HHC tells us it all an illusion and everybody in the world is wrong.

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:23:26 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com
The ND market is playing out all across America. A few hotspots like
some neighborhoods in California and Florida are screwed, but not
representive of almost everyone else.

Why then is the dollar diving?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then are both Bush and the Ds planning a stimulus?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then is the FED injecting liquidity like there is no tomorrow?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then are financial markets around the world having problems?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
HHC tells us it all an illusion and everybody in the world is wrong.

Winton is now trying to tell us that San Diego is representative of
everywhere else. He's wrong.

[Winston_Smith]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:22:55 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:23:26 -0800 (PST),
Why then is the dollar diving?

Misdirection.

You parrot pretty good.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then are both Bush and the Ds planning a stimulus?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then is the FED injecting liquidity like there is no tomorrow?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then are financial markets around the world having problems?

Misdirection.

Are you saying these things are not happening?
Are you saying they are not related to each other
Are you saying they are not related to the housing disaster?

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:22:55 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:23:26 -0800 (PST),
Why then is the dollar diving?

Misdirection.

You parrot pretty good.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then are both Bush and the Ds planning a stimulus?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then is the FED injecting liquidity like there is no tomorrow?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then are financial markets around the world having problems?

Misdirection.

Are you saying these things are not happening?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Are you saying they are not related to each other

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Are you saying they are not related to the housing disaster?

Brock has already (and incorrectly) put to bed the theory that the Fed
putting more liquidity in the market via lower interest rates won't
help the housing market.

Are you reversing your master?

[Bob Brock]

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:05:30 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:22:55 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:23:26 -0800 (PST),
Why then is the dollar diving?

Misdirection.

You parrot pretty good.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then are both Bush and the Ds planning a stimulus?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then is the FED injecting liquidity like there is no tomorrow?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then are financial markets around the world having problems?

Misdirection.

Are you saying these things are not happening?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Are you saying they are not related to each other

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Are you saying they are not related to the housing disaster?

Brock has already (and incorrectly) put to bed the theory that the Fed
putting more liquidity in the market via lower interest rates won't
help the housing market.

Cite????

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Bob Brock
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:05:30 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:22:55 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:23:26 -0800 (PST),
Why then is the dollar diving?

Misdirection.

You parrot pretty good.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then are both Bush and the Ds planning a stimulus?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then is the FED injecting liquidity like there is no tomorrow?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then are financial markets around the world having problems?

Misdirection.

Are you saying these things are not happening?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Are you saying they are not related to each other

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Are you saying they are not related to the housing disaster?

Brock has already (and incorrectly) put to bed the theory that the Fed
putting more liquidity in the market via lower interest rates won't
help the housing market.

Cite????

You know damned well what you said.

[Bob Brock]

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:10:59 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Bob Brock
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:05:30 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:22:55 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:23:26 -0800 (PST),
Why then is the dollar diving?

Misdirection.

You parrot pretty good.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then are both Bush and the Ds planning a stimulus?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then is the FED injecting liquidity like there is no tomorrow?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Why then are financial markets around the world having problems?

Misdirection.

Are you saying these things are not happening?

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Are you saying they are not related to each other

Misdirection.

Post by Winston_Smith
Are you saying they are not related to the housing disaster?

Brock has already (and incorrectly) put to bed the theory that the Fed
putting more liquidity in the market via lower interest rates won't
help the housing market.

Cite????

You know damned well what you said.

Yes I do. The question is do you? I take it you didn't find any
cites showing where I actually said what you say I said.

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.

You're not in California. You're in Argentina.

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding.  Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California. I've
posted stories from all over.

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas. People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it.  "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.
From conversations with our local real estate office owner/agent, the North
Dakota real estate market has not taken much of a hit.  Good crop land is
still in demand and the price per acre is holding up pretty well.  You will
always find a few folks who have inflated ideas of the worth of their land
but they tend to return to reality once they try to sell.  Personally, I
find North Dakota to be a good place to live and especially find it a great
place to grow food.
Richard J. Edwards

The ND market is playing out all across America. A few hotspots like
some neighborhoods in California and Florida are screwed, but not
representive of almost everyone else.
BTW, Nebraska is a wonderful place, too.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Great place but the young are leaving in droves.

No jobs, extremely low wages of what is there....and the kids are
leaving.

Sad but true.

TMT

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.

You're not in California. You're in Argentina.

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding.  Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California. I've
posted stories from all over.

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas. People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it.  "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.
From conversations with our local real estate office owner/agent, the North
Dakota real estate market has not taken much of a hit.  Good crop land is
still in demand and the price per acre is holding up pretty well.  You will
always find a few folks who have inflated ideas of the worth of their land
but they tend to return to reality once they try to sell.  Personally, I
find North Dakota to be a good place to live and especially find it a great
place to grow food.
Richard J. Edwards

The ND market is playing out all across America. A few hotspots like
some neighborhoods in California and Florida are screwed, but not
representive of almost everyone else.
BTW, Nebraska is a wonderful place, too.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Great place but the young are leaving in droves.
No jobs, extremely low wages of what is there....and the kids are
leaving.
Sad but true.
TMT

They're leaving Ohio, too. Our new governor (D) and our old governor
(R) worked hard to get more people educated in Ohio, only so that they
leave for places with jobs. They forgot that people with an education
have a purpose in life, and it isn't as night auditor at a hotel. But
this is a story that has been playing out for almost 40 years. Ohio
and Michigan = Rustbelt.

[Curly Surmudgeon]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:09:05 -0600, Richard J. Edwards wrote:

Don'tcha just hate it when your real id slips? You realize, HH&C, that
anyone can go to people.yahoo.com and get your home address and telephone
number?

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.

You're not in California. You're in Argentina.

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding. Surly is in Argentina.

Wrong.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California. I've
posted stories from all over.

You posted that story while in California?

Wrong.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas. People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it. "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Good. Glad you got it.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.
From conversations with our local real estate office owner/agent, the
North Dakota real estate market has not taken much of a hit. Good crop
land is still in demand and the price per acre is holding up pretty
well. You will always find a few folks who have inflated ideas of the
worth of their land but they tend to return to reality once they try to
sell. Personally, I find North Dakota to be a good place to live and
especially find it a great place to grow food.
Richard J. Edwards

At only 637,000 residents I doubt that the population, geography, climate,
or economy are typical or important to the nation at large. But it is
nice to hear that some remote corners of America haven't yet felt the
damage wrought by Bush and his sycophants.

How many nicks do you have?

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
Don'tcha just hate it when your real id slips? You realize, HH&C, that
anyone can go to people.yahoo.com and get your home address and telephone
number?

Yep. And I'm in the FCC database as well. The water company has my
info, as well as AFMPC. Just today I made a purchase and they Claimed
they needed my telephone number. I gave them my old number in
Illinois.

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.

You're not in California. You're in Argentina.

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding. Surly is in Argentina.

Wrong.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California. I've
posted stories from all over.

You posted that story while in California?

Wrong.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas. People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it. "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Good. Glad you got it.

I know I've got it correct. I guess the media figgured "the worst
economy in 50 years" worked on the old man, so it just might work on
GW, too. Meanwhile we haven't heard anything about the two dozen
Taliban killed in Afghanistan yesterday, or that the surge has
succeeded in Iraq. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.
From conversations with our local real estate office owner/agent, the
North Dakota real estate market has not taken much of a hit. Good crop
land is still in demand and the price per acre is holding up pretty
well. You will always find a few folks who have inflated ideas of the
worth of their land but they tend to return to reality once they try to
sell. Personally, I find North Dakota to be a good place to live and
especially find it a great place to grow food.
Richard J. Edwards

At only 637,000 residents I doubt that the population, geography, climate,
or economy are typical or important to the nation at large. But it is
nice to hear that some remote corners of America haven't yet felt the
damage wrought by Bush and his sycophants.
How many nicks do you have?
-- Regards, Curly

I had an Irish Setter named Nick.

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.

You're not in California. You're in Argentina.

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding.  Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California. I've
posted stories from all over.

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas. People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it.  "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.
From conversations with our local real estate office owner/agent, the North
Dakota real estate market has not taken much of a hit.  Good crop land is
still in demand and the price per acre is holding up pretty well.  You will
always find a few folks who have inflated ideas of the worth of their land
but they tend to return to reality once they try to sell.  Personally, I
find North Dakota to be a good place to live and especially find it a great
place to grow food.
Richard J. Edwards

Ag is king right now....that will change too...ag land prices are at
their height because of biofuel.

I seem to recall an agriculture recession in the 80's.

And doesn't ND have an extremely high migration rate out of the state?

And let us not forget that National Geographic just did a negative
piece on ND.

TMT

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.

You're not in California. You're in Argentina.

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding.  Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California. I've
posted stories from all over.

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas. People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it.  "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.
From conversations with our local real estate office owner/agent, the North
Dakota real estate market has not taken much of a hit.  Good crop land is
still in demand and the price per acre is holding up pretty well.  You will
always find a few folks who have inflated ideas of the worth of their land
but they tend to return to reality once they try to sell.  Personally, I
find North Dakota to be a good place to live and especially find it a great
place to grow food.
Richard J. Edwards

Ag is king right now....that will change too...ag land prices are at
their height because of biofuel.

Yep, all those new fuels are about to hit the market at any time...

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I seem to recall an agriculture recession in the 80's.

You've got a good memory when you need to make a point.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
And doesn't ND have an extremely high migration rate out of the state?

Only of the educated class. There is a big influx of folks south of
the border who work lots cheaper.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
And let us not forget that National Geographic just did a negative
piece on ND.
TMT

Boom and Bust - much like any other market. Hopefully the farmers
have learned not to go into crazy debt like they did in the 70's and
80's. The last thing the world needs right now is another Willie
Nelson benefit concert.

But that's where corn stoves originated - the 80's farm "crisis."

[Richard J. Edwards]

Post by Too_Many_Tools

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.

You're not in California. You're in Argentina.

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding. Surly is in Argentina.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California. I've
posted stories from all over.

You posted that story while in California?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas. People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it. "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.
From conversations with our local real estate office owner/agent, the North
Dakota real estate market has not taken much of a hit. Good crop land is
still in demand and the price per acre is holding up pretty well. You
will
always find a few folks who have inflated ideas of the worth of their land
but they tend to return to reality once they try to sell. Personally, I
find North Dakota to be a good place to live and especially find it a great
place to grow food.
Richard J. Edwards

Ag is king right now....that will change too...ag land prices are at
their height because of biofuel.

Yep, all those new fuels are about to hit the market at any time...

Post by Too_Many_Tools
I seem to recall an agriculture recession in the 80's.

You've got a good memory when you need to make a point.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
And doesn't ND have an extremely high migration rate out of the state?

Only of the educated class. There is a big influx of folks south of
the border who work lots cheaper.

Post by Too_Many_Tools
And let us not forget that National Geographic just did a negative
piece on ND.
TMT

Boom and Bust - much like any other market. Hopefully the farmers
have learned not to go into crazy debt like they did in the 70's and
80's. The last thing the world needs right now is another Willie
Nelson benefit concert.

But that's where corn stoves originated - the 80's farm "crisis."

Actually North Dakota had net population growth last year. I suspect some
of that did come from illegals, but that number should be declining. After
all, if illegals are leaving Arizona in decent numbers, how long can
'southerners' take the cold of the great white north?

Richard J. Edwards

[Curly Surmudgeon]

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.  

You're not in California.  You're in Argentina.  

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding. Surly is in Argentina.

Not true but so what if I were? Location is irrelevant to the issue.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California.  I've
posted stories from all over.  

You posted that story while in California?

No, I did. So what?

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas.  People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it. "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Partially true, Bush is an idiot. Events prove that conclusively but
that's not the issue here. Speak to the topic.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

How does physical location impact reading comprehension?

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Winston_Smith]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:18:37 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
How does physical location impact reading comprehension?
-- Regards, Curly

In HHC's case, reading comprehension is missing from an volume of
several feet from his geographic center. The rest of the world seems
to have no problem.

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Winston_Smith
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:58:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.  

You're not in California.  You're in Argentina.  

Intentional misunderstanding on your part.

No misunderstanding.  Surly is in Argentina.

Not true but so what if I were?  Location is irrelevant to the issue.

Post by Winston_Smith

And Winton is in Arizona.

The particular two articles linked above ARE about California.  I've
posted stories from all over.  

You posted that story while in California?

No, I did.  So what?

Post by Winston_Smith
They come from the mainstream news
media, US and overseas.  People on this group have checked in from
Chicago and other places.

Oh, now I get it.  "It's The Economy, Stupid" is being replayed just
like the last time a Bush was in office.

Partially true, Bush is an idiot.  Events prove that conclusively but
that's not the issue here.  Speak to the topic.

Post by Winston_Smith
You are trying to play the usual NeoCon game of divide, define, and
deny.

Anyway, I guess it's important for The Bobs from Arizona and Argentina
to explain the California housing market to everyone else.

How does physical location impact reading comprehension?
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
               http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

You haven't been to a Red State lately have you? ;<)

TMT

[Winston_Smith]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:39:35 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
The particular two articles linked above ARE about California.  I've
posted stories from all over.  

You posted that story while in California?

So a story "about" California is only valid if it it posted by someone
who is a resident of Calif. and if it is posted "from" a computer in
Calif.?

Interesting theory.

And another of your intentional misunderstandings.

[Curly Surmudgeon]

Post by Bob Brock
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:39:35 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
The particular two articles linked above ARE about California.  I've
posted stories from all over.  

You posted that story while in California?

So a story "about" California is only valid if it it posted by someone
who is a resident of Calif. and if it is posted "from" a computer in
Calif.?
Interesting theory.
And another of your intentional misunderstandings.

If that is the case then why does HH&C feel his opinion is valid and your
not?

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Curly Surmudgeon]

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Curly Surmudgeon

Post by h***@hotmail.com

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.
The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.
Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.
"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."
Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.
The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

Winton, if you're in the house buying mode, you'll find the prices
aren't dropping nearly as much as your claims.  Go ahead and try to
get a home at those greatly reduced prices.  Go ahead and try it.
Best of luck.

There are more houses at 50% under market of 2 years ago than I can
possibly purchase in California.  

You're not in California.

<looks outside> Funny, looks like a standard, fugly, central California
winter day...

Post by h***@hotmail.com
You're in Argentina.

Hmmm, morning newspaper today said "Sacramento Bee" atop.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
And Winton is in Arizona.

So what? What does our physical location at this instant have to do with
the validity of our arguments. Arguments which you have yet to
successfully repudiate.

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Curly Surmudgeon
What is your definition of "greatly
reduced"?  Short sales are now a fact of life.

Again, what is your definition of "greatly reduced"?

This is why you are a troll. Your posting contained absolutely nothing on
topic but was a thinly-veiled ad homenim attack meant to discredit the
poster, not the assertion.

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Robert Sturgeon]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 05:02:29 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.
The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.
Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.
"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."
Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.
The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

Winton, if you're in the house buying mode, you'll find the prices
aren't dropping nearly as much as your claims. Go ahead and try to
get a home at those greatly reduced prices. Go ahead and try it.
Best of luck.

I see you are not familiar with the housing market in
California. You can not only easily buy at the current
asking prices -- you can buy at quite a bit less --
assuming, that is, you can lay your hands on some money --
which is the problem -- which is why the prices have
collapsed -- and are still headed down -- and are probably
going lower -- a lot lower.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

[Gunner]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 05:02:29 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.
The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.
Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.
"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."
Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.
The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

Winton, if you're in the house buying mode, you'll find the prices
aren't dropping nearly as much as your claims. Go ahead and try to
get a home at those greatly reduced prices. Go ahead and try it.
Best of luck.

It very much depends on where one lives as well.
A loft in NYC hasnt gone down as much as a house in Bakersfield.

Gunner

[Too_Many_Tools]

Post by Robert Sturgeon
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 05:02:29 -0800 (PST),

Post by h***@hotmail.com

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.
The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.
Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.
"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."
Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.
The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

Winton, if you're in the house buying mode, you'll find the prices
aren't dropping nearly as much as your claims.  Go ahead and try to
get a home at those greatly reduced prices.  Go ahead and try it.
Best of luck.

It very much depends on where one lives as well.
A loft in NYC hasnt gone down as much as a house in Bakersfield.
Gunner- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

True..but that will change also.

TMT

[pyotr filipivich]

[Default] I missed the Staff Meeting but the Minutes record that

Post by Gunner

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

Winton, if you're in the house buying mode, you'll find the prices
aren't dropping nearly as much as your claims. Go ahead and try to
get a home at those greatly reduced prices. Go ahead and try it.
Best of luck.

It very much depends on where one lives as well.
A loft in NYC hasnt gone down as much as a house in Bakersfield.

It is scary. I live in the Seattle area I find that I can get a
nice 3 bedroom, two bath home for just under 150,000. But the commute
from Oklahoma City is going to kill me. Locally, that will get me a
one bedroom place, an hour's drive from the interstate (and an hour
more to Seattle). I've thought about moving, but to where?

tschus
pyotr

[pyotr filipivich]

[Default] I missed the Staff Meeting but the Minutes record that

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Winston_Smith
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

Winton, if you're in the house buying mode, you'll find the prices
aren't dropping nearly as much as your claims. Go ahead and try to
get a home at those greatly reduced prices. Go ahead and try it.
Best of luck.

The Medians are down - no doubt a result of the mega-houses
selling for a million dollars, rather than a million two. I've yet to
see the prices dropping at the level I could have afforded, or can.

[Curly Surmudgeon]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:05:18 -0700, Winston_Smith wrote:

Mortgage crisis is hurting pets, too
By Cynthia Hubert - ***@sacbee.com

Published 12:00 am PST Saturday, January 19, 2008

As thousands of area families surrender to foreclosure their dreams of
owning homes, many are also leaving their dogs and cats behind.

Area shelters are filled with animals surrendered in recent months by
people forced to move to apartments or other places where their pets are
unwelcome, and managers are blaming the housing meltdown for the surge.
National animal groups have noted a similar trend.

"Very clearly it would appear that the economy and the mortgage situation
in particular are interfering with the ability of people to care for their
animals," said Leilani Vierra, director of the Placer County SPCA. About
three people a week are surrendering pets to the shelter because of "a
loss of a home or becoming homeless," she said.

During the last four months of 2007, the Sacramento SPCA received 176 dogs
and cats from people who cited "moving" as the reason they could no longer
keep them, said director Rick Johnson. That is 100 more than during the
same time in 2006.

The mortgage crisis, spurred by easy financing of homes, has affected
people across the country but has hit particularly hard in California.
More than 7,600 households across the Sacramento region suffered
foreclosures last year.

Steve Brown and his wife, Deborah, of Citrus Heights are facing
foreclosure and possible relocation. Adding to the pressure, Brown said,
is the fact that they have three dogs, Lucky, Dakota and Chocolate, who
are considered members of the family.

"They sleep on the bed with us at night, all three of them," said Brown,
who lives on Social Security disability payments and could go into
foreclosure in February if he is unable to scrape up about $2,000 toward
his mortgage. "I don't know what we will do if we have to leave, but I
can't imagine giving them up. Heaven forbid, even if we had to go homeless
we would have to take them with us."

The Humane Society of the United States recently issued an advisory asking
foreclosure victims to plan for their pets if they must move. The
organization has received scattered reports of former homeowners simply
abandoning their animals, said Stephanie Shain, HSUS director of outreach.

"Abandoning pets for any reason is not only irresponsible, it's illegal,"
said Shain. "People are so stressed. They may feel they can't care for
their pets financially, or they're overwhelmed by a sudden move. But if
you can't take them with you, the worst thing you can do is leave them to
fend for themselves."

People who are no longer able to house their pets and cannot find a friend
or rescue group to take them in should bring them to shelters, she said.

Sheltered pets will have a better chance at finding a new home, Shain
said, and even if they must be put to death "at least they will be
euthanized painlessly" rather than die a "horrible" death in the streets,
she said.

The national group has no figures on abandonments linked to foreclosures
but has begun querying shelters across the country about what they are
seeing, said Shain.

Local shelters are still feeling the aftermath of destructive storms
earlier this month that blew down fences, terrified animals and caused
many cats and dogs to stray from their homes. That situation, compounded
with the mortgage meltdown, has filled some beyond capacity.

"We ran out of kennel space, and our kennels are still very full," said
Pat Claerbout, director of the county's animal care department.

Foreclosures have probably affected the county shelter less dramatically
than others, she said, because its mission is more heavily focused on
enforcement of animal protection laws and picking up strays.

"If someone wants to surrender an animal to us because they're moving, we
encourage them to take the animal to the SPCA" or other shelters that have
more space and are more likely to find homes for them, she said.

"We should be the shelter of last resort," Claerbout said. "The clock is
running here."

The Placer SPCA, which does not put animals to death because of
overcrowding, is "inundated with dogs," Vierra said. "We're having to
house some of the smaller ones in our spay and neuter area. We're looking
at office spaces and anywhere else we can put them."

In January, at least 20 percent of dogs and cats surrendered to the
shelter came from people who "lost their homes or were having such extreme
financial difficulties" that they could no longer afford to care for them,
Vierra said.

"It's pretty clear that those numbers are up," she said. "It's bad enough
that people are losing their homes, and then they have to give up their
pets. It's horrifying."



-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Curly Surmudgeon]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:05:18 -0700, Winston_Smith wrote:

I attended one of these auctions last year when only 400 homes were on the
block. Most/all are bank repossessions.

This time there are 2,000+ being auctioned only in california, only by
this one auctioneer. Seemingly equally divided with 1,000 in Northern
California and another 1,000 in Southern California. Never before has the
real estate market been so overloaded with foreclosures.

And they have more than one auction per year per region.

http://ushomeauction.com/

-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Curly Surmudgeon]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:05:18 -0700, Winston_Smith wrote:

-----snip-----

The Philadelphia Inquirer - Jan 20 12:31 AM Police: Marital woes led to
N.J. murder-suicide

Marital problems led a high-ranking executive of a collapsed
subprime-mortgage lender to kill his wife in their Marlton home, then jump
to his death from the Delaware Memorial Bridge, authorities said
yesterday.

Searchers continued to look for the body of Walter Buczynski, who parked
his car on the span and jumped off around 12:20 p.m. Friday, about 20
minutes after police discovered his wife's body.

Burlington County Prosecutor Robert Bernardi said yesterday that a suicide
note left by Buczynski, 59, revealed that the motive for the slaying was
"based upon the personal relationship of the couple," not the family's
economic situation. He would not elaborate.

Buczynski's wife, Marci, 37, was found dead in a second-floor bedroom
around noon Friday by Evesham Township police. Bernardi said Walter
Buczynski had called police to ask them to check on her shortly before he
jumped. Burlington County Medical Examiner C. Chase Blanchard determined
that a blow to her head had fractured her neck, Bernardi said. - AP

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9j8eu_aBJRHTaMASR3QtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTBjdmNoOTVjBHBvcwMyBHNlYwNzcg--/SIG=14382emog/EXP=1200969306/**http%3a//www.philly.com/inquirer/local/philadelphia/20080120_Police__Marital_woes_led_to_N_J__murder-suicide.html








-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[k***@yahoo.com]

<http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/01/16/news/top_stories/1_04_421_...>
December foreclosure sales in San Diego County quadrupled year over
year, and statewide, sales of new homes in November dropped 55 percent
from the previous year, according to three reports released Tuesday
that analysts said indicate the state's housing recession will
continue to worsen before it recovers.
The number of foreclosures sold in the county during December leapt
328 percent from the previous year to 1,096, comprising 45 percent of
all sales, according to data from a report by ForeclosureRadar, a
company that follows California foreclosures.
Until that percentage drops, the housing market will not recover, said
Norm Miller, a real estate professor with the University of San Diego.
"That's very, very high compared to historical numbers. We should be
down to 5 percent, or even 1 or 2 percent," Miller said. "Even if you
saw them go down 10 to 15 percent, that wouldn't be enough. So as far
as turning the corner? No, definitely not yet."
Another report released Tuesday reported similar market softness, as
sales of new homes throughout California in November tumbled 55
percent year over year, to 2,968, according to Hanley Wood Market
Intelligence, a research firm based in Costa Mesa.
...snip
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080115-9999-1n15buy.html>
Median home price plummets in county
San Diego County's median home price last month plunged 13 percent
from year-ago levels, continuing a long downward slide that has
prospective buyers and sellers wondering if it's finally time to jump
back into the volatile market.
The answer, say analysts, might be yes, with the caveat that prices
could fall even further before beginning a slow ascent.
Figures released yesterday by DataQuick Information Systems show last
month's median price at $430,000 - 17 percent below the November 2005
peak of $517,500.
The December decline was also the steepest drop in 20 years of record
keeping at DataQuick. The overall median was down $10,000 from
November and $65,000 below December 2006
...snip

And the carnage continues in northern California.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/22/BUTEUJN7I.DTL&tsp=1