Move #mh to shared folder.

[Mark Filipak]

I've set up a mail account, <mail-account-name>, as follows:
Received mail to #mh/<mail-account-name>/inbox
and Sent mail to #mh/<mail-account-name>/inbox

Apparently, '#mh' resolves to '/home/mark/' because I find
'/home/mark/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.claws_cache'
'/home/mark/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.claws_mark'
'/home/mark/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.mh_sequences'
'/home/mark/<mail-account-name>/inbox/1'
'/home/mark/<mail-account-name>/inbox/2'
'/home/mark/<mail-account-name>/inbox/3'

I want to make '#mh' resolve to '/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/'
so that the above are relocated to
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.claws_cache'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.claws_mark'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.mh_sequences'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/1'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/2'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/3'
and
'/home/mark/<mail-account-name>/' doesn't exist.

Is there a way to do this?

Thanks & Ciao - Mark.

[Abhay S. Kushwaha]

Post by Mark Filipak
I want to make '#mh' resolve to '/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/'
so that the above are relocated to
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.claws_cache'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.claws_mark'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.mh_sequences'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/1'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/2'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/3'
and
'/home/mark/<mail-account-name>/' doesn't exist.

You could set up a link. Explore "ln" command.

OR

You could edit folderlist.xml

OR

You could create a new mailbox at that location

etcetra.

All done while CM is not running of course. :)

[Mark Filipak]

Post by Abhay S. Kushwaha

Post by Mark Filipak
I want to make '#mh' resolve to '/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/'
so that the above are relocated to
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.claws_cache'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.claws_mark'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.mh_sequences'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/1'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/2'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/3'
and
'/home/mark/<mail-account-name>/' doesn't exist.

After I do my big mbox importation, I'll have about 50 accounts. I want them all to be located at '/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/' and I'd rather not have to move them manually.

Post by Abhay S. Kushwaha
You could set up a link. Explore "ln" command.

Thanks, Abhay, but I don't think a link workaround will do what I want. What would the link be and how would I make it take effect only for Claws? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you've suggested - I am, after all, a Linux novice. Can you be more specific, please?

Post by Abhay S. Kushwaha
OR
You could edit folderlist.xml

Editing '/home/mark/.claws-mail/folderlist.xml' and changing the XML
from:
'<folder type="mh" path="<mail-account-name>" sort="0" collapsed="0" name="<mail-account-name>">
to:
'<folder type="mh" path="/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>" sort="0" collapsed="0" name="<mail-account-name>">
worked, but I'd have to do that for all 50 accounts (though search-&-replace would easily take care of that).
From a practical standpoint, this workaround would become a maintenance hassle as I'd have to remember to do it as I create new accounts in the future.

Post by Abhay S. Kushwaha
OR
You could create a new mailbox at that location

Hmmm... How would I do that? I couldn't find a way to persuade Claws to put mailboxes in a particular path. (I must be totally misinterpreting what you mean.)

Can you help me a little more? Remember I'm a Linux novice, but more importantly, I'm a hardware engineer (and you know how linearly-stupid hardware engineers can be!). Thanks.

[Thomas Taylor]

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:12:04 -0400

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Abhay S. Kushwaha

Post by Mark Filipak
I want to make '#mh' resolve to '/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/'
so that the above are relocated to
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.claws_cache'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.claws_mark'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/.mh_sequences'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/1'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/2'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/<mail-account-name>/inbox/3'
and
'/home/mark/<mail-account-name>/' doesn't exist.

After I do my big mbox importation, I'll have about 50 accounts. I
want them all to be located at '/mnt/hgfs/shared/mail/' and I'd
rather not have to move them manually.

Post by Abhay S. Kushwaha
You could set up a link. Explore "ln" command.

Thanks, Abhay, but I don't think a link workaround will do what I
want. What would the link be and how would I make it take effect only
for Claws? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you've suggested - I am,
after all, a Linux novice. Can you be more specific, please?

A softlink should work fine if you are using Linux. Don't know what
windows can do. In Linux, your home folder has a sub-folder called
Mail. In my case I moved that to a different location (/common/Mail/)
and created a softlink from that back to the home folder.

ln -s /common/Mail/ /home/tom/Mail

That way I am able to have all mail in one location which can be shared
with several Linux distros.

Tom

<<<<< snip >>>>>
--
"Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty."
Henry Ford
--
Tom Taylor - retired penguin - KG7CFC
AMD Phenom II x4 955 -- 4GB RAM -- 2x1.5TB sata2
openSUSE 12.2-x86_64 openSUSE 12.3-x86_64
KDE 4.7.2, FF 7.0 KDE 4.10.00, FF 19.0
claws-mail 3.9.1
registered linux user 263467

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

[Mark Filipak]

Post by Thomas Taylor
On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:12:04 -0400

-snip-

Post by Thomas Taylor
A softlink should work fine if you are using Linux. Don't know what
windows can do. In Linux, your home folder has a sub-folder called
Mail. In my case I moved that to a different location (/common/Mail/)
and created a softlink from that back to the home folder.
ln -s /common/Mail/ /home/tom/Mail

What you show above is what I actually expected to see when I launched the File Manager following installation and creation of my first account. If that had been the case, then sure, a link would have been fine as you recommend, but that was not the case. For some reason, Claws in my system created '<account-name>',
not here:
'~/Mail/<account-name>',
but here:
'~/<account-name>'.
I was totally surprised, but being a Linuxenophobe, I didn't know enough to complain until now. Clearly I couldn't continue like that without creating 45 or 50 files (or 45 or 50 links) in '~/' bearing no indication that they were actually mail folders.

Regardless of the reason for the screwup, I can't create a link for '~/' and the current situation leaves me having to revise '~/.claws-mail/folderlist.xml' every time I create a new account. That is: unless someone knows where Claws maintains a global setting that is the path to the root of the MH.

A short time later...
===== AHA! =====
There's a flaw in the Claws Mail Setup Wizard. (I'm documenting this now, not for this mailing list, but for the Claws bug list...)

I just,
1, reinstalled Claws,
2, wiped out '~/.claws-mail' (to force re-initialization), and
3, ran Claws for the '1st' time.
Then I.
4, recreated my '1st' account (again). The name of the account is really 'aerotek', not '<account-name>' (of course).

Then ===== and here's the important part ===== the last thing the wizard asks for is "Mailbox name". Now, it's not really asking for the mailbox name - that would be 'aerotek'. What it's really asking for the mail system base folder name - that would be 'Mail' (and, in fact, 'Mail' is pre-filled in).

(The last time I installed Claws - the only time previous to this - I wiped out 'Mail' and put in 'aerotek'. This time I left it saying 'Mail' and finished the wizard.)

Then I,
5, closed Claws,
6, deleted '~/Mail', and
7, created the link '~/Mail' ==> '/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail'.
Then I.
8, relaunched Claws.

Unfortunately, when Claws opened, it wasn't right. The 'aerotek' account wasn't there. Why not? Ah! Because 'folderlist.xml' wasn't right!

So in the new folderlist.xml, to what it already had, I added this:

<folderitem last_seen="0" ... name="aerotek" type="normal">
<folderitem last_seen="0" ... name="draft" type="normal" />
<folderitem last_seen="0" ... name="inbox" type="normal" />
<folderitem last_seen="0" ... name="queue" type="normal" />
<folderitem last_seen="0" ... name="sent" type="normal" />
<folderitem last_seen="0" ... name="trash" type="normal" />
</folderitem>

And here's the folder structure I wound up with:

'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/aerotek/draft/'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/aerotek/inbox/'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/aerotek/queue/'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/aerotek/sent/'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/aerotek/trash/'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/draft/'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/inbox/'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/queue/'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/sent/'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/trash/'

I've never been 'here' before. Does the folder structure above look right?


CONCLUSIONS:

1 - The wizard should allow a link to be created, such as:

(o) Create a mail system base folder (relative to ~/) named: [ ~/Mail ]
or
(o) Create a link to an existing mail system base folder (relative to /) located here: [ /Mail ] [Browse]

where (o) is a radio button, [ ~/Mail ] and [ /Mail ] are text boxes, and [Browse] is a button.

2 - The wizard should perform needed mbox conversions at this time.

3 - The wizard should then take what it finds in the chosen mail system base folder and create folderlist.xml from that, rather than the other way around.


Thanks for your continued help. Unless someone sees something wrong, this is a wrap.
Ciao - Mark.

[Mark Filipak]

From "The Claws Mail User Manual"

| 4.3. Multiple accounts
|
| You can easily create multiple accounts in Claws Mail.
| For POP accounts, you can choose to store all email
| from your different accounts in the same folder(s),
| using the Receive tab preference. IMAP and News accounts
| each get their own mailbox in the folder tree.

What does "For POP accounts, you can choose to store all email from your different accounts in the same folder(s)" mean?
Sure I "can choose" that, but I choose not to: I choose to have completely separate POP accounts. Is there any problem with that?

When I look at Thunderbird I see this (where [i] is an icon):

[i] aerotek
[i] Inbox
[i] Draft
[i] Trash
[i] amazon
[i] Inbox
[i] Draft
[i] Trash
[i] anthem
[i] Inbox
[i] Draft
[i] Trash

and so on, for about 45 accounts.

They are all POP accounts.

When I try to duplicate this with Claws, it breaks when I'm trying to create the 2nd account.

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for your help - Mark.

[Brad Rogers]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:53:39 -0400
Mark Filipak <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Mark,

Or, to turn the question around, can Claws be configured so that POP
mail from differing sources can be put in differing and individual
inboxes?

Yes.

In account prefs, (Configuration menu, Edit Accounts...) look at
"Receive". Also, look at "Advanced": This is where you can configure
which folders are used for Draft, Sent, Queue & Trash/Wastebin.

[Mark Filipak]

Post by Brad Rogers
On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:53:39 -0400
Hello Mark,

Or, to turn the question around, can Claws be configured so that POP
mail from differing sources can be put in differing and individual
inboxes?

Yes.
In account prefs, (Configuration menu, Edit Accounts...) look at
"Receive". Also, look at "Advanced": This is where you can configure
which folders are used for Draft, Sent, Queue & Trash/Wastebin.

Oh, my. I have a sinking feeling...

Brad, I've been in the "Preferences for new account" dialog a hundred times. Well... a dozen times.

Scenerio:

I've already created my 1st POP account, named "aerotek". I'm now trying to create my 2nd POP account, named "experian".

In the "Preferences for new account" dialog...

Basic:
Name of account "experian",
Mail address "***@gmail.com"...etc.
Server for receiving "pop.googlemail.com",
SMTP server (send) "smtp.googlemail.com"...etc.
then, when I click [Apply], a bunch of bogus mailboxes are created (more on this later).

Receive:
I change
Default inbox (which is prefilled as: "#mh/aerotek/inbox")
to "#mh/experian/inbox"
then, when I click [Apply], the Default inbox is magically changed back to "#mh/aerotek/inbox".

It's as though Claws is saying "Uh-uh, Mark! You can have only one Inbox."


Before bogus mailboxes, the mailbox structure is:
[i] aerotek (MH)
[i] Inbox
[i] Sent
[i] Drafts
[i] Queue
[i] Trash

...where [i] denotes an icon.


After bogus mailboxes, the mailbox structure is:
[i] aerotek (MH)
[i] Inbox
[i] Sent
[i] Drafts
[i] Queue
[i] Trash
[i] Mailbox (MH)
[i] Inbox
[i] Sent
[i] Drafts
[i] Queue
[i] Trash
[i] aerotek
[i] Inbox
[i] Sent
[i] Drafts
[i] Queue
[i] Trash

Note: "aerotek" appears twice. "experian" doesn't appear.

What do you make of this? I've removed and reinstalled Claws several times. I've 'reinitialized' it several additional times (by deleting the '~/.claws-mail' folder). I'm at my wits end.

Thanks & Ciao - Mark.

[Mark Filipak]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 14:33:05 -0400

-snip-

I've read several of your posts, and think I have a reasonable
understanding of what you're after. It might pay to create the
directories you need outside CM. So you have
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/aerotek'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/experian'

Exactly! ...outside of CM, eh?

and so on.
Then, and this is the vital bit regarding the separation of accounts,
start CM and select "Add mailbox->MH..." from the File directory. It's
this vital step I left out previously, as I didn't fully comprehend how
you wanted the accounts laid out. Enter the path to the first mailbox
as '/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/aerotek' (without quotes) and the directory
will be scanned for existing subdirs.

That's clear... thanks for taking the time to write it.

-snip-

Hmmm... The developers aught to address this. I'm trying to wean friends away from Windows and stuff like this doesn't make a convincing case that Linux is a viable alternative. Good documentation without jargon and without excessive verbiage is critical as is contextual (off-line) help and smooth, well designed and tested user interfaces (and interface standards, too). I correspond with some Linux developers and when I claim that they need to focus-test rather than using ordinary users as testers, they scoff at me. They claim that they don't have the resources but in reality they're wasting time writing stuff that could be better and written faster with some extra planning. I think ordinary users can be used as testers if you're honest with them and state that that's what you need them to
be. At the same time, you should supply a more developed product that ordinary users can use. Some projects know that and have a beta-path and a stable-path.

Thank you, Brad. I so appreciate the help. I may volunteer as a Claws documentarian when the dust settles.

(!) Perhaps I'll write a perl script to make all the folders and contribute it to the Claws project.

Ciao - Mark (a hardware engineer).

[Paul]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:02:21 -0400

Post by Mark Filipak

'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/aerotek'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/experian'

Exactly! ...outside of CM, eh?

It's not necessary to do this outside of Claws. You can use the full
path in the 'Add mailbox' dialogue.

with regards

Paul

[Brad Rogers]

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 21:21:39 +0100
Paul <***@thewildbeast.co.uk> wrote:

Hello Paul,

Post by Paul
It's not necessary to do this outside of Claws. You can use the full
path in the 'Add mailbox' dialogue.

True, but it's not immediately obvious whether new directories will be
created if necessary. Perhaps if the Add mailbox requester had a
"Browse" button (that opened a directory requester) as well as the "OK"
and "Cancel" options. That way people would be able to navigate to the
directory they want (adding new ones along the way if necessary) rather
than having to enter the path by hand.

I still occasionally muck up mailbox addition, because of either a) a
faulty memory (mine, not RAM), b) poor typing skills or c) both.

[Brad Rogers]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:02:21 -0400
Mark Filipak <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Mark,

Post by Mark Filipak
Exactly! ...outside of CM, eh?

I found it easier to start with.

{snip}

Post by Mark Filipak
That's clear... thanks for taking the time to write it.

You're welcome. It only took a few minutes to check through.

{snipped}

Post by Mark Filipak
Thank you, Brad. I so appreciate the help. I may volunteer as a Claws

Again, you're welcome.

Post by Mark Filipak
documentarian when the dust settles.

I'm sure the team would appreciate the help.

[Brad Rogers]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 14:33:05 -0400
Mark Filipak <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Mark,

Post by Mark Filipak
Oh, my. I have a sinking feeling...

Oh-oh..

Post by Mark Filipak
Brad, I've been in the "Preferences for new account" dialog a hundred
times. Well... a dozen times.

I know the feeling well.

I've read several of your posts, and think I have a reasonable
understanding of what you're after. It might pay to create the
directories you need outside CM. So you have

'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/aerotek'
'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/experian'

and so on.

Then, and this is the vital bit regarding the separation of accounts,
start CM and select "Add mailbox->MH..." from the File directory. It's
this vital step I left out previously, as I didn't fully comprehend how
you wanted the accounts laid out. Enter the path to the first mailbox
as '/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/aerotek' (without quotes) and the directory
will be scanned for existing subdirs.

Do similar operations for 'experian' and any other accounts you wish to
add. There' no need to create the inbox, sent, out queue and trash
folders in each directory, as the Add mailbox operation will do that for
you. When finished you should have;

aerotek (MH)
Inbox
Sent
Drafts
Queue
Trash
experian (MH)
Inbox
Sent
Drafts
Queue
Trash
etcetera (MH)
.....

in the Folder pane of CM.

Having done all that, you can now "Create New Account" from the
configuration menu, adding the SMTP & POP server details, etc. and
select the correct inbox for each on the Receive page. Now go to the
Advanced page to select the correct directories for Trash, etc.

I hope all that makes sense. I did it myself, creating a couple of
dummy accounts to be sure it worked.

Post by Mark Filipak
[i] Mailbox (MH)
[i] Inbox
[i] Sent
[i] Drafts
[i] Queue
[i] Trash
[i] aerotek
[i] Inbox
[i] Sent
[i] Drafts
[i] Queue
[i] Trash
Note: "aerotek" appears twice. "experian" doesn't appear.
What do you make of this? I've removed and reinstalled Claws several

I'm not sure what's happened there, TBH.

Post by Mark Filipak
times. I've 'reinitialized' it several additional times (by deleting
the '~/.claws-mail' folder). I'm at my wits end.

Moving things around within CM is possible, but can be tricky when, as
you mention in another post, some of the requesters are asking questions
in a slightly misleading or ambiguous way.

[Paul]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 03:25:17 -0400

Post by Mark Filipak
When I try to duplicate this with Claws, it breaks when I'm trying
to create the 2nd account.

What, specifically, does 'it breaks' mean?

with regards

Paul

[Mark Filipak]

Post by Paul
On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 03:25:17 -0400

Post by Mark Filipak
When I try to duplicate this with Claws, it breaks when I'm trying
to create the 2nd account.

What, specifically, does 'it breaks' mean?

Thanks Paul. Ummm... In the interest of being careful and not intending to burden good people who would help novices, let me ask:

By design, does Claws put all mail fetched via POP into a common inbox while doling out separate inboxes only to IMAP mail?

Or, to turn the question around, can Claws be configured so that POP mail from differing sources can be put in differing and individual inboxes?

Thanks - Mark.

[Holger Berndt]

It _is_ asking the right question.

No, it's not.

Yes, it is.

In Claws Mail, a mailbox and an account are two distinct concepts.
A mailbox is used to store messages. An account is used to pull in
and/or send out messages. There's no problem in having multiple
accounts that fetch messages and dump them into the very same mailbox.

The Mailbox _is_ the base folder name, i.e. Mailbox == base folder name.

No, in the wizard it's called 'Mail', not 'Mailbox'.

There's no contradiction. Mailboxes have names, and the default
name for the initial mailbox that the wizard creates is "Mail".

Holger

[Mark Filipak]

Post by Holger Berndt

It _is_ asking the right question.

No, it's not.

Yes, it is.

No, it's not. Hehehehehe... Okay, seriously, we have a difference of opinion here. As one of the developers, your opinion is more important than mine. (By the way, thank you for your efforts.) But... I represent the outsiders who come to Linux and to Claws cold, with certain preconceptions: granted, but preconceptions that are based on substantial experience. In my case, it's 35 years of experience as a user, a developer, and an industry documentarian. It's experience that I can gift to you, to profit you and your team.

We have a difference of opinion... You are right. I am also right. We have to find a common ground in which we are both right. Only gain can result. This disagreement displays that we are both somewhat wrong. We must, together, erase the wrong.

Post by Holger Berndt
In Claws Mail, a mailbox and an account are two distinct concepts.

Yes! But the nomenclature is getting into the way. The idea that the container of mailboxes is 'The Mailbox' is getting in the way of understanding.

The 1st step is to give everything a name. A well chosen name, simply by its appropriateness, can avoid much confusion and reduce the amount of explanatory documentation needed. Rather than making firm statements, perhaps there's a nomenclature on which we can agree.

Post by Holger Berndt
A mailbox is used to store messages. An account is used to pull in
and/or send out messages. There's no problem in having multiple
accounts that fetch messages and dump them into the very same mailbox.

Account? These are Mail Accounts? How about Mail Sources? Mail comes from Mail Sources (POP & IMAP servers) and gets deposited in Mail Boxes. Aren't 'aerotek' and 'experian' (to use my examples) Mail Sources rather than Mail Accounts?

Think about it, Holger. Get back to me here or by PM.

Ciao - Mark.

[Holger Berndt]

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt
In Claws Mail, a mailbox and an account are two distinct concepts.

Yes! But the nomenclature is getting into the way. The idea that
the container of mailboxes is 'The Mailbox' is getting in the way
of understanding.

That's your very own idea. A "mailbox" not a container of mailboxes.

I think what's getting in your way of understanding is that you're
trying to change everything even before having taken the effort to
understand it.

Post by Mark Filipak
The 1st step is to give everything a name. A well chosen name,
simply by its appropriateness, can avoid much confusion and reduce
the amount of explanatory documentation needed. Rather than making
firm statements, perhaps there's a nomenclature on which we can agree.

The things have appropriate names.

There is a "mailbox", which is basically a storage location. You can
have one or multiple of those, and they can be stored on different
physical locations.

Inside a mailbox, you can have a nested "folder" structure.

Then there are "account"s, which handle the take-over from your mailbox
to the provider for sending and (possibly) receiving.

That's actually pretty consistent to what the terms mean in other
applications as well. It's just that some push the user to have a 1:1
association between accounts and mailboxes, and thus can use the
terms interchangably.

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt
A mailbox is used to store messages. An account is used to pull in
and/or send out messages. There's no problem in having multiple
accounts that fetch messages and dump them into the very same mailbox.

Account? These are Mail Accounts? How about Mail Sources? Mail comes
from Mail Sources (POP & IMAP servers) and gets deposited in Mail
Boxes.

That's only half the truth (accounts do not only receive, but also
send), or even wrong (an "SMTP-only" account only sends).

A "source" is also more abstract than an "account".

Holger

[Michael]

I think most people would agree on what a 'mailbox' is in the real world. But what would be an account ?

I think the account equals the postal service. In most countries, there are more than one service company, including state government service. In a way, you 'subscribed' to them even if you're not aware of it, by living in the country in a specific address. If anything was legal, you'd need official permission (like, citizenship) for being in your place, and that would be the authority source of your 'subscription' then. Like, the city hall is where you 'subscribed'.

Anyway. The different postal services often drop all mail into one mailbox; otherwise, you also can have several boxes for different purposes. However a single mailbox would not just be equal to one 'postal service' account.

That said. I have to admit that equaling one account with one mailbox would be more intuitive to me too. So i think Mark is not completely wrong.

my 5 ct...

----------------

Post by Holger Berndt
There is a "mailbox", which is basically a storage location. You can
have one or multiple of those, and they can be stored on different
physical locations.
Inside a mailbox, you can have a nested "folder" structure.
Then there are "account"s, which handle the take-over from your mailbox
to the provider for sending and (possibly) receiving.

[Mark Filipak]

Post by Holger Berndt

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt
In Claws Mail, a mailbox and an account are two distinct concepts.

Yes! But the nomenclature is getting into the way. The idea that
the container of mailboxes is 'The Mailbox' is getting in the way
of understanding.

That's your very own idea. A "mailbox" not a container of mailboxes.

I don't know what you mean, but it's not important.

Post by Holger Berndt
I think what's getting in your way of understanding is that you're
trying to change everything even before having taken the effort to
understand it.

You're right to be cautious. I understand how email applications work.

Post by Holger Berndt

Post by Mark Filipak
The 1st step is to give everything a name. A well chosen name...

-snip-

Post by Holger Berndt
The things have appropriate names.

In some cases, yes; in some cases, no.

Post by Holger Berndt
There is a "mailbox", which is basically a storage location. You can
have one or multiple of those, and they can be stored on different
physical locations.
Inside a mailbox, you can have a nested "folder" structure.

"Inbox" is the name of a mailbox, is it not? "Sent" is name of a folder, not a mailbox, correct? If I create a filter that routes mail to "Joe", then Joe is a mailbox named "Joe", is that not correct?

Post by Holger Berndt
Then there are "account"s, which handle the take-over from your mailbox
to the provider for sending and (possibly) receiving.

Those are Claws processes. Accounts are what people have on mail and news servers, or am I wrong?

Post by Holger Berndt
That's actually pretty consistent to what the terms mean in other
applications as well. It's just that some push the user to have a 1:1
association between accounts and mailboxes, and thus can use the
terms interchangably.

I must be misreading what you write. It seems to me that you are using the terms interchangeably.

Post by Holger Berndt

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt
A mailbox is used to store messages. An account is used to pull in
and/or send out messages.

It seems to me that a mailbox is a folder to which Claws automatically delivers mail (as opposed to a folder to which the user has manually moved messages), and that an account is a service that runs on a mail or news server on behalf of a mail client and therefore has nothing directly to do with Claws other than configuration (username, password, credential, authentication, encryption, etc.), and that the process that pulls the mail from the server is a fetch.

Post by Holger Berndt

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt
There's no problem in having multiple
accounts that fetch messages and dump them into the very same mailbox.

Account? These are Mail Accounts? How about Mail Sources? Mail comes
from Mail Sources (POP & IMAP servers) and gets deposited in Mail
Boxes.

That's only half the truth (accounts do not only receive...

-snip-

I was addressing only the mail reception part of the story because it's the most complex. Sending mail is a relatively simple task.

Post by Holger Berndt
A "source" is also more abstract than an "account".

I disagree. "Source" is specific. It's "account" that's abstract. "Account" is abstract because it's a metaphor. Also, you're using "account" only because the guys who write server code use it. They use it only because, by extension, it requires a user account on the server system. The software architecture term for where a message comes from is "source". IMHO, that's the term that should be used.

[Paul]

On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 13:10:34 -0400

Post by Mark Filipak
"Inbox" is the name of a mailbox, is it not?

No. Inbox is a folder in a mailbox.

Post by Mark Filipak
"Sent" is name of a folder, not a mailbox, correct?

Yes.

Post by Mark Filipak
If I create a filter that routes mail to "Joe", then Joe is a
mailbox named "Joe", is that not correct?

If 'routes' means 'moves' then, no, 'Joe' is a folder in a mailbox.

Post by Mark Filipak
Those are Claws processes. Accounts are what people have on mail
and news servers, or am I wrong?

People also have accounts at banks, accounts on websites, accounts
with utility companies, accounts in claws-mail, and other sorts of
accounts, including mail and news servers.

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt
That's actually pretty consistent to what the terms mean in other
applications as well. It's just that some push the user to have a
1:1 association between accounts and mailboxes, and thus can use
the terms interchangably.

I must be misreading what you write. It seems to me that you are
using the terms interchangeably.

iirc, some mail apps will always create a mailbox when a user creates
an account. I believe that is the reference here.

with regards

Paul

[Mark Filipak]

Post by Paul
On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 13:10:34 -0400

Post by Mark Filipak
"Inbox" is the name of a mailbox, is it not?

No. Inbox is a folder in a mailbox.

-big snip-

Example (where '[i]' is an icon):

[i] aerotek <<-- Account or Mailbox?
[i] Inbox <<-- Mailbox or Folder?
[i] Sent <<-- Mailbox or Folder?
[i] Drafts <<-- Mailbox or Folder?
[i] Queue <<-- Mailbox or Folder?
[i] Trash <<-- Mailbox or Folder?
[i] Tom <<-- Mailbox or Folder?
[i] Dick <<-- Mailbox or Folder?
[i] Harry <<-- Mailbox or Folder?

[Paul]

[i] aerotek (MH) <<-- Mailbox
[i] Inbox <<-- Folder
[i] Sent <<-- Folder
[i] Drafts <<-- Folder
[i] Queue <<-- Folder
[i] Trash <<-- Folder
[i] Tom <<-- Folder
[i] Dick <<-- Folder
[i] Harry <<-- Folder

[Mark Filipak]

Post by Paul
[i] aerotek (MH) <<-- Mailbox
[i] Inbox <<-- Folder
[i] Sent <<-- Folder
[i] Drafts <<-- Folder
[i] Queue <<-- Folder
[i] Trash <<-- Folder
[i] Tom <<-- Folder
[i] Dick <<-- Folder
[i] Harry <<-- Folder

So, what's an Account? From the Glossary: "an identity within Claws Mail". An 'identity'? Another meaningless metaphor. Talk about vague...

Here's my conception of the (real) architecture:

[i] aerotek <<-- Mail Handler
[i] Inbox <<-- Default Mailbox
[i] Sent <<-- System Folder
[i] Drafts <<-- System Folder
[i] Queue <<-- System Folder
[i] Trash <<-- System Folder
[i] Tom <<-- User Mailbox if the target of a sort, User Folder otherwise
[i] Dick <<-- User Mailbox if the target of a sort, User Folder otherwise
[i] Harry <<-- User Mailbox if the target of a sort, User Folder otherwise

[Holger Berndt]

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt
There is a "mailbox", which is basically a storage location. You can
have one or multiple of those, and they can be stored on different
physical locations.
Inside a mailbox, you can have a nested "folder" structure.

"Inbox" is the name of a mailbox, is it not?

No, it's not. Inbox is a folder.

Post by Mark Filipak
"Sent" is name of a folder, not a mailbox, correct?

Yes.

Post by Mark Filipak
If I create a
filter that routes mail to "Joe", then Joe is a mailbox named "Joe",
is that not correct?

"Routing" mail is ambigous, so this question is not precise enough to
be answered. However, I think if you carefully read the explanations
that I gave you so far, the question is probably answered.

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt

Post by Holger Berndt
A mailbox is used to store messages. An account is used to pull in
and/or send out messages.

It seems to me that a mailbox is a folder to which Claws automatically
delivers mail (as opposed to a folder to which the user has manually
moved messages),

No, see above.

Post by Mark Filipak
and that an account is a service that runs on a mail or news server
on behalf of a mail client and therefore has nothing
directly to do with Claws other than configuration (username, password,
credential, authentication, encryption, etc.),

More or less, yes (Claws Mail can also access local mail spools on
unix machines).

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt
That's only half the truth (accounts do not only receive...

-snip-
I was addressing only the mail reception part of the story because it's
the most complex. Sending mail is a relatively simple task.

The point is that renaming "account" to "mail source" is either half or
completely wrong. An SMTP-only account is clearly not a mail source.
And a POP3 account in Claws Mail contains config for message sending as
well, so calling it a mail source would also be misnaming.

Holger

[Mark Filipak]

Thanks, Holger. I appreciate your response.

Post by Holger Berndt

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt
There is a "mailbox", which is basically a storage location. You can
have one or multiple of those, and they can be stored on different
physical locations.
Inside a mailbox, you can have a nested "folder" structure.

"Inbox" is the name of a mailbox, is it not?

No, it's not. Inbox is a folder.

Then why does it have 'box' at the end of its name?

Post by Holger Berndt

Post by Mark Filipak
"Sent" is name of a folder, not a mailbox, correct?

Yes.

Post by Mark Filipak
If I create a
filter that routes mail to "Joe", then Joe is a mailbox named "Joe",
is that not correct?

"Routing" mail is ambigous, so this question is not precise enough to
be answered.

Sorry. I should have written 'sorts mail into "Joe"'.

Post by Holger Berndt
However, I think if you carefully read the explanations
that I gave you so far, the question is probably answered.

No. 1, it's not a question, so I'm not looking for an answer, and 2, you have been vague. It would help if you used software terms instead of metaphors.

Post by Holger Berndt

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt

Post by Holger Berndt
A mailbox is used to store messages. An account is used to pull in
and/or send out messages.

It seems to me that a mailbox is a folder to which Claws automatically
delivers mail (as opposed to a folder to which the user has manually
moved messages),

No, see above.

Post by Mark Filipak
and that an account is a service that runs on a mail or news server
on behalf of a mail client and therefore has nothing
directly to do with Claws other than configuration (username, password,
credential, authentication, encryption, etc.),

More or less, yes (Claws Mail can also access local mail spools on
unix machines).

Spoolers are also servers, are they not?

Post by Holger Berndt

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt
That's only half the truth (accounts do not only receive...

-snip-
I was addressing only the mail reception part of the story because it's
the most complex. Sending mail is a relatively simple task.

The point is that renaming "account" to "mail source" is either half or
completely wrong. An SMTP-only account is clearly not a mail source.

I'm not writing about sending mail, only fetching mail.

Post by Holger Berndt
And a POP3 account in Claws Mail contains config for message sending as
well, so calling it a mail source would also be misnaming.

I'm not writing about sending mail, only fetching mail.

[Colin Leroy]

On 07 April 2013 at 14h04, Mark Filipak wrote:

Hi,

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt
No, it's not. Inbox is a folder.

Then why does it have 'box' at the end of its name?

Because that's how it's spelt.
inbox [in-boks] noun
1. a boxlike tray, basket, or the like, as on a desk, for holding
incoming mail, messages, or work.
2. Computers. a folder for receiving and storing incoming e-mails or
text messages.

[Mark Filipak]

Post by Colin Leroy
Hi,

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Holger Berndt
No, it's not. Inbox is a folder.

Then why does it have 'box' at the end of its name?

Because that's how it's spelt.
inbox [in-boks] noun
1. a boxlike tray, basket, or the like, as on a desk, for holding
incoming mail, messages, or work.
2. Computers. a folder for receiving and storing incoming e-mails or
text messages.

Hahahahaha... It's [in-boks] but is not a mailbox. That's rich.

Of course it's a folder to the filesystem. What's currently being called a mailbox (example: 'aerotek (MH)') is ALSO a folder, yet it's being called a mailbox.

I guess I'm the only person who sees the inconsistency.
- fail -

[Colin Leroy]

On 08 April 2013 at 01h25, Mark Filipak wrote:

Hi,

Paul? He and the developers have a lot to gain from me

If you want to help, start by chaniging atitude and try to find a place
in the project in a non-antagonistic manner. you're arriving there as
if you were smarter and had better ideas than everybody else, and guess
what, that usually doesn't work very well.

I already have to deal with know-better smartasses at work, but I'm
paid to take the abuse there. Here I'm not, I'm there for my own
enjoyment of developing a fine piece of software, and I'm not
tolerating any kind of painful N+1 wanabee - just team mates with
good ideas *and* good communication.

So if you want to help, just learn how the project and open-source in
general works - hint : you adapt to the projects' ways, you fit in,
you prove your worthiness; *not* the other way around.

[Pierre Fortin]

Post by Mark Filipak
Then why does it have 'box' at the end of its name?

Better Qs: Why isn't:
- "Sent" -> "Outbox"?
- "drafts" -> "WIPbox"?
- "Queue" -> "MailCart"?
- "Trash" -> "CircularFile"?

:)

Post by Mark Filipak
Can you help me a little more? Remember I'm a Linux novice, but more
importantly, I'm a hardware engineer (and you know how linearly-stupid

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Post by Mark Filipak
hardware engineers can be!).

Sheesh Mark, are we gonna be treated to constant "but why?" questions?
Respectfully, that's a pre-schooler's approach...

Many of us have been CM users since its SC days (some since S days); and
are very happy with the work of all the developers, regardless of the
"names".

Unless you are here to provide patches, who cares that the ${ITEM}s are
not named perfectly in your opinion? Inbox, In, Incoming, Received,
You_have_mail, Reed Basket(sic), whatever... C'mon! The most succinct
developer is Paul who's now responded more to you than he normally does
to the entire list. I worry he'll get irritated and move on... or is
that your real goal? Are you a TBird or other plant trying to disrupt
this project?

If not, here's a patch you can consider creating/submitting: since the
main folders each have a "folder type", there should be no reason why they
couldn't be renamed to whatever you like; kinda like a "personal
locale"... i.e., I'm pretty sure Colin's folders have French names based
on his locale...


Paul, Colin, Holger, et al: THANKS guys!! Sure am glad CM doesn't
support Air Mail -- would hate to see the discussion if it did...

Pierre
"licking screen to seal envelope" cuz CM doesn't have that either....

[Mark Filipak]

Post by Pierre Fortin

Post by Mark Filipak
Then why does it have 'box' at the end of its name?

- "Sent" -> "Outbox"?
- "drafts" -> "WIPbox"?
- "Queue" -> "MailCart"?
- "Trash" -> "CircularFile"?
:)

Too cryptic for me to understand. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Post by Pierre Fortin

Post by Mark Filipak
Can you help me a little more? Remember I'm a Linux novice, but more
importantly, I'm a hardware engineer (and you know how linearly-stupid

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Post by Mark Filipak
hardware engineers can be!).

Sheesh Mark, are we gonna be treated to constant "but why?" questions?
Respectfully, that's a pre-schooler's approach...

The User's Guide has no explanations. For example, the menu items aren't documented - open the PDF and do some searching. Instead, the User's Guide expects the reader to 'understand' Claws. I don't 'understand' Claws. It isn't described in an understandable way, beginning with the terminology. I don't mean to sound harsh, but what I'm stating is the truth and is easily demonstrable.

Post by Pierre Fortin
Many of us have been CM users since its SC days (some since S days); and
are very happy with the work of all the developers, regardless of the
"names".

Fine. You're part of a cozy little family.

Post by Pierre Fortin
Unless you are here to provide patches, who cares that the ${ITEM}s are
not named perfectly in your opinion?

Based on my explanation about 'understanding' Claws in order to understand the User's Guide, do you still feel that my complaints are trivial?

Post by Pierre Fortin
Inbox, In, Incoming, Received,
You_have_mail, Reed Basket(sic), whatever... C'mon! The most succinct
developer is Paul who's now responded more to you than he normally does
to the entire list.

Who are you? Do you speak for Paul? He and the developers have a lot to gain from me. I'm willing to spend the time documenting my experiences but I'm not going to do that if I'm just going to be blown off. Perhaps they have the time and the independent money to allow them to work on free software but I don't.

[Pierre Fortin]

Post by Mark Filipak
Who are you?

A long time (over 10 years) SC/CM user who has a nearly identical
technical background to yours. My first "emails" were via virtual card
readers on an IBM 360/67 VM host circa 1972; then, prototyped email to
voice to phone line circa 1980, etc.......

Post by Mark Filipak
Do you speak for Paul?

I never speak "for" anyone else without a clearly outlined Power of
Attorney.

Post by Mark Filipak
He and the developers have a lot to gain from me.

Colin (a developer) has already responded and I second his comments.

Post by Mark Filipak
I'm willing to spend the time documenting my experiences

Then, how about spending your time doing just that instead of what you've
been doing so far?

Post by Mark Filipak
but I'm not going to do that if I'm just going to be blown off.

You haven't shown that you can "do that" yet... so you are not being
"blown off" for non-existent contributions, rather for your attitude...

[Mark Filipak]

The Mailbox _is_ the base folder name, i.e. Mailbox == base folder name.

How about 'Mail Folder'? The Mail Folder contains Mail Boxes.

'~/Mailfolder/<mail-box-1>'
'~/Mailfolder/<mail-box-2>'
'~/Mailfolder/<mail-box-3>'
etc.

No 'Accounts'.

[Paul]

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:12:04 -0400

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Abhay S. Kushwaha
OR
You could create a new mailbox at that location

Hmmm... How would I do that? I couldn't find a way to persuade
Claws to put mailboxes in a particular path. (I must be totally
misinterpreting what you mean.)

The 'Add mailbox' dialogue from /File/Add mailbox/MH... uses either a
path relate to your home dir, or a full path. In your case, use the
full path.

As the dialogue says, "If an existing mailbox is specified, it will
be scanned automatically."

If you want to move your current mailbox to a new location, use the
filesystem to copy it to the new location, then use 'Add mailbox'
with the new location.

That's the easiest way - no manually editing files needed.

with regards

Paul

[Mark Filipak]

Post by Thomas Taylor
On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:12:04 -0400

Post by Mark Filipak

Post by Abhay S. Kushwaha
OR
You could create a new mailbox at that location

Hmmm... How would I do that? I couldn't find a way to persuade
Claws to put mailboxes in a particular path. (I must be totally
misinterpreting what you mean.)

The 'Add mailbox' dialogue from /File/Add mailbox/MH...

Thanks, Paul. I got the soft link to work so that mailboxes would be created in the shared folder automatically. That's what I meant by "persuade Claws to put mailboxes in a particular place". The problem, it turned out, is that the Claws Mail Setup Wizard asks the wrong question.

Specifically, when, at the end of the Claws 1st-run it asks for "Mailbox name", but it's not really asking for the mailbox name ("aerotek" is the name of my 1st mailbox). What it's really asking for the Mailboxes base folder name ("Mail" - in fact, "Mail" is pre-filled in the text box). Since I was being very literal in my interpretation of what "Mailbox name" meant, I wiped out "Mail" and typed in "aerotek". So, instead of creating this:

'~/Mail'

the Claws Mail Setup Wizard created this:

'~/aerotek'

Well, I quite logically assumed that if I created 45 more accounts, I'd have 45 more such folders cluttering up my home directory when, in reality, I wanted them in a shared folder like this:

'/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail/aerotek'

Then, the 2nd time I did the Claws 1st-run, I realized the mistake and, since I already had a '~/Mail' link set up that already pointed to '/mnt/hgfs/shared/Mail', the Claws Mail Setup Wizard used that link and I was fine from then on (at least, until my latest problem).

Now, I've written plenty of programs as I'll bet you have too, and it's sometimes surprising to keep making the same mistake over and over and not seeing it. In this case, I'm sure the developer of the Claws Mail Setup Wizard ran it a thousand times and saw "Mailbox name" a thousand times and never realized that it was wrong, but "Mailbox name" is not right. My first mailbox was named "aerotek", but that doesn't mean that the wizard wanted me to put "aerotek" into "Mailbox name". No, not at all. It wanted me to leave "Mailbox name" set to "Mail". You see, instead of "Mailbox name", the wizard should be asking for "Mailboxes base folder name" or "Mailboxes home folder name" or "Mailboxes root folder name" or some such wording.

I will be passing on these recommendations to the Claws developers:

1 - The wizard should begin with a 3-way switch:

| (o) Store the mail system in my home folder (~/) and name it [_Mail_]
|
| (o) Create a link in my home folder (~/) and name it [_Mail_], then target the link to [Browse]
|
| (o) Use the existing link in my home folder (~/) that is named [_Mail_]

where (o) is a 'choose one' radio button, [_Mail_] is a text box, and [Browse] is a button.

2 - The wizard should perform needed mbox conversions at this time rather than deferring it to later.

3 - The wizard should then take what it finds in the existing mail system (if any) and create folderlist.xml from that, rather than the other way around.

[Mark Filipak]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 14:02:29 -0400

Post by Mark Filipak
Specifically, when, at the end of the Claws 1st-run it asks for
"Mailbox name", but it's not really asking for the mailbox name
("aerotek" is the name of my 1st mailbox). What it's really asking
for the Mailboxes base folder name ("Mail" - in fact, "Mail" is
pre-filled in the text box).

It _is_ asking the right question.

No, it's not.

You seem to be confusing an account name 'aerotek' with the mailbox name 'Mail'.

To the rest of the world, when someone sees a graphic that says "aerotek Inbox" and they 'see' messages accumulate in it, they say that it's the "aerotek mailbox", not the "aerotek account". It's a visual thing. An account is a programming abstraction, a data structure, not a thing. A mailbox is a thing. You have to go with what people expect, not with what you think is correct. In this case, the people are correct, but even if they weren't, you'd still have to go with their expectations. The 'Mail' folder that holds the mailboxes is like a post office or a mailbox business. It's a holder of mailboxes or an aggregation of mailboxes, it's not the actual mailboxes. If it was up to me to decide the issue, I'd change 'Mail' to 'Mailboxes', '~/Mailboxes/aerotek', '~/Mailboxes/experian', etc.

The Mailbox _is_ the base folder name, i.e. Mailbox == base folder name.

No, in the wizard it's called 'Mail', not 'Mailbox'.

with regards
Paul

[Paul]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 14:02:29 -0400

Post by Mark Filipak
Specifically, when, at the end of the Claws 1st-run it asks for
"Mailbox name", but it's not really asking for the mailbox name
("aerotek" is the name of my 1st mailbox). What it's really asking
for the Mailboxes base folder name ("Mail" - in fact, "Mail" is
pre-filled in the text box).

It _is_ asking the right question. You seem to be confusing an
account name 'aerotek' with the mailbox name 'Mail'. The Mailbox _is_
the base folder name, i.e. Mailbox == base folder name.

with regards

Paul