Discussion:
The Most Sought After and Dangerous 'Equation' of All - How to Go Viral (Part One)
(too old to reply)
Jonathan
2021-07-21 14:58:41 UTC
Permalink
We all know the potential power of a video or an idea etc
that 'goes viral' and is witnessed by millions around
the world, and more importantly all at the...same time.

Even the most powerful nations can fall, as we
witnessed Jan 6. I won't mention COVID.

How to 'can' that effect, how to design...

*a single cause with a nearly infinite effect*

...or 'go viral' could be one of the most
sought after and potentially powerful
capabilities of all.

The power to change-the-world with little more
than carefully chosen keystrokes or images.

To wield the Power of Nature Herself from the tips
of your fingers, as if you were a...God.

The Power of Nature since the viral effect is an
incarnation of Darwinian evolution or Nature
Herself.

I find that possibility to be an interesting exercise
in abstract mathematical thought which I believe
Complexity Science makes possible.

And here it goes, yes I'm going to hang my ass out
for everyone to see trying to derive and explain
the mathematical formula for turning yourself into
a very on-topic real live...SUPER HERO.

Even a 'God'.

A simple cause with an nearly infinite effect.

How does that happen?

Ignore the title of what follows, it's the theoretical basis
reflected in the quote that's being discussed here.


Noninvasive Transcranial Magnetic and Electrical Stimulation:
Working Mechanisms

"CAS are self-organizing, that is, the complexity of the system,
and thus emergence, increases without an external organizer
but by making the components competitive. This results
in nonlinear behavior: *small causes can have large results*,
also known as the butterfly effect."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/complex-adaptive-system


The penultimate example of such a 'viral' effect
or a non-linear transient of infinite length can be
modeled after, among many things, the death of
Jesus Christ.

But mathematically the death of Christ would reflect
the longest lasting and perhaps most powerful viral system
known to exist.

Don't laugh!

Any curious mind should want to understand how a single death
can reverberate around the globe for thousands of years
and perhaps even getting stronger over time.

Can that and what becomes possible, even another Christ?

You might think this is fantasy folks.
But there are new concepts out there that
can make understanding these things a reality.

Truth is certainly stranger than fiction!

It's better the good-guys figure it out first
or those dystopian nightmares this ng writes
could be coming soon.

But so could a Utopian existence.

Having the ability to produce either/both with
little more than your dedicated fingertips
follows in Part 2.

Sorry <g>

It's not typed yet, give me a couple days
but I have it all in my mind.

I'm sure Emily would approve of this ng
and this idea. Slam her if you disagree~


Thanks for reading


Jonathan



"We never know how high we are
Till we are called to rise;
And then, if we are true to plan,
Our statures touch the skies—

The Heroism we recite
Would be a daily thing,
Did not ourselves the Cubits warp
For fear to be a King—"


By E Dickinson




s
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-21 17:03:43 UTC
Permalink
In article <TLednWwI39W_q2X9nZ2dnUU7-***@giganews.com>,
Jonathan <***@Gmail.com> wrote:
[schnipp]

/plonk
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Charles Packer
2021-07-22 21:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
[schnipp]
/plonk
Actually, a farrago like this would not have been out of place
in the newspapers of late 19th century New England, when
sermons were routinely printed whole. Today this kind of thought
train is more often associated with being stoned. In this
instance the key idea, though, is recognizable and historically
still potent. Change the world with a single event. The notion that
it's possible has influenced visionaries from John Brown to Lenin.
Quadibloc
2021-07-23 11:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Packer
Actually, a farrago like this would not have been out of place
in the newspapers of late 19th century New England, when
sermons were routinely printed whole. Today this kind of thought
train is more often associated with being stoned.
And then there was the time Darkseid found the Anti-Life Equation,
and it turned out to be more deadly and less controllable than he
thought, so he had to call upon Superman to clean up his mess...

The most dangerous equation of all, even if it was only sought
after by one...

John Savard
Kevrob
2021-07-23 18:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Packer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
[schnipp]
/plonk
Actually, a farrago like this would not have been out of place
in the newspapers of late 19th century New England, when
sermons were routinely printed whole. Today this kind of thought
train is more often associated with being stoned. In this
instance the key idea, though, is recognizable and historically
still potent. Change the world with a single event. The notion that
it's possible has influenced visionaries from John Brown to Lenin.
Hence the Dickinson obsession. That or he thinks Hailee Steinfeld
[Ender's Game, Bumblebee] is really cute. TBH, if I had gone to high
school or college with her, she'd have turned my head. I liked her
in the "Pitch Perfect" films, and while she would not make me forget
Kim Darby in the "True Grit" remake, she was a more believable 14-year
old Mattie Ross. Ms Darby was 22 when her version was released.
--
Kevin R
Jonathan
2021-07-21 18:52:41 UTC
Permalink
Let me try to start with a real world example of
the Butterfly Effect, or an event 'going viral'.

The Perfect Rumor, but first...

Generally, complex systems are analyzed using
massive computer simulations, so I have to find
another way to observe real world complexity.

Where do I find thousands of large scale real world
examples of complex adaptive systems, where the data
is provided free and in real time?

Lot to ask?

It's called the stock market. Best place
to observe complexity in action as it's
essentially some 10,000 complex adaptive systems
running every day with reams of real time
and even better free data. Not to mention
the highly useful stock screeners where
you can screen for any values, even complex
values.

The stock market is a system involving highly
complex parts, people, which is far better
than parts comprised of simple things such as
sand or water molecules etc.

The more complex the system, the larger the scale,
the better for observing reliable emergent system
properties, such as going viral.

It doesn't get any larger or more complex than
the stock market.


Back to the Perfect Rumor example.


An utterly reliable source, let's say the NY Times, announces
some big new product has a 'problem'.

This 'certainty' represents the static attractor or order.

However the details of the 'problem' are not enough
for even an expert to determine if the problem is
fatal or fixable. You just don't know.

This 'uncertainty' represents the chaotic attractor or disorder

But due to the reliable source you do know that it
..has a problem, just have no idea how big.

What do you do with that stock?

I have observed many times that what happens
is the certainty of a problem, balanced with
the uncertainty of it's scale creates the same
response almost...every single time.

The traders assumes the worst-case scenario
and panic-selling sets in.

Or for a good-news rumor panic-buying sets in.

The volatility explodes, the viral effect shows up
and sends the stock behavior wildly swinging
like someone pulled a spring tight and then
let it go.

All kinds of emergent behavior follows, and emergent
behavior is...simple behavior, btw, an important
fact to understand.

Here's a famous example. Gamestop.

Social media site r/WallStreetBets started talking about
a potential short squeeze of historical proportions
are possible, and this was the result...

GME YTD
https://www.tradingview.com/x/W76JecKP/

Emergent behavior. Like a bouncing spring, like a
flock of birds. Notice the volume swings are easy to see
and sudden, showing the buy and sell points clearly.

Providing a template for future examples where
the buy point would be after the first fall
at around $50 in late February. It's easy
to screen for such massive changes of volume
and price.

Remember that a complex system produces simple emergent behavior.

Like a vortex is more predictable than a cloud, or
collective intelligence provides the better answer
than a single mind, or market forces provide
more stability and predictability.

Btw complexity is a synonym for uncertainty
in this science. The more complex the more
uncertain.

The emergent stock behavior is simple since
the huge increase in volatility due to sudden
infusion of complexity/uncertainty quickly forces
the stock to bounce off or show it's local
bottom and top.

The buy and sell points are suddenly exposed
and become predictable once the static and chaotic
attractors are critically interacting.

The abstract form of a complex adaptive system:

Static Attractor: That which increases...order such as:

A solid, rule of law, gravity, genetics or facts.


Chaotic Attractor: That which increases...disorder such as"

A gas, freedom, cosmic expansion, selection or imagination.


Complex System:

A complex system is when it's static and chaotic attractors
are critically interacting, at the transition or tipping point
between each other. As in a cloud, a market or political system.


Here is the solution.

In trading I've learned it's not enough for
this generic abstract relationship to exist for the
viral behavior to emerge.

They two attractors have to be at...*simultaneous maximums*...
for the system at hand. The static and chaotic
attractors must also each be complex systems
in their own right, not just a part, and represent
system specific maximum or ultimate examples of each.

For instance with the Perfect Rumor it can't
just be a reliable source, or a pedestrian
corporation or problem, but the best source
of all, a huge or important product.
Maximum certainty

Combined with details of the problem that
just utterly falls short of defining if
fixable or fatal?
Maximum uncertainty.

Both wrapped up on a single event, or press
release in this example.

The first and greatest of all viral events
to date has what properties?

Death of Christ!

We know he existed, but was he a mortal or divine?
Was he a freedom fighter or terrorist?
Was he a philosopher or a prophet?

For this example...

Static Attractor:
Death represents the ultimate certainty.

Chaotic Attractor"
Divinity, philosophy and love represents the
ultimate unknowns or uncertainties.

The static and chaotic attractors, in one event
experienced globally, are at simultaneous maximums.

A complex system, where complexity is maximized
at all levels.


Let me put put up or shut up.


Just...now Googled the most watched video ever
on Utube. Turns out to be a children's cartoon
sadly.

"On February 3, 2021, "Baby Shark Dance" had received
more views than the Earth's entire human population,
according to various estimates, becoming the first
YouTube video to do so"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Shark#Pinkfong_version

But for this video to go...so viral, to display
such grand emergent properties I knew the
logical structure I just described MUST BE
present before I even watched it.

It HAS to be for the effect to be so massive.

Remember the opposing attractors must
represent maximum possibilities.

The Baby Shark Dance, what are the opposing
attractors, and are they at maximum?

The Baby Shark Dance, the original version
video (4:18)



The Baby Shark Dance
Wiki

Origins and history

Different versions of the song have the sharks hunting fish,
eating a sailor, or killing people who then go to heaven.[6]

Controversies

While the English version simply lists the members of the
hark family, the Korean version says Mommy Shark is "pretty",
Daddy Shark is "strong", Grandma Shark is "kind", and
Grandpa Shark is "cool". In January 2018, the South Korean
newspaper Kyunghyang Shinmun published a front-page editorial
condemning these lyrics as sexist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Shark#Pinkfong_version


Static attractor:

Children are, of course, the ultimate example of purity
and good.


Chaotic attractor:

Questions of life, death and Heaven plus freckled
human nature represent just the opposite, the
greatest unknowns or uncertainties.

Combining children and the ultimate questions of meaning?

Or Heaven and Hell in one package or event, in a way
no one can tell which opposite dominates.

Like that stupid children's video, a good rumor
or even the death of Christ.

Now you know how to design the ultimate viral effect.
Or how to wield the Power of Nature with your fingertips
...as if a God.

If that stupid cartoon can stumble into the solution
why shouldn't we be able to as well?

But perhaps using the idea for a more consequential
effect.


~singin'...


I'd Love To Change The World - Ten Years After ( lyrics )
video (3:44)

"I'd love to change the world
But I don't know what to do
So I'll leave it up to you"


original video 3,400,000 views


Thanks for reading.




Jonathan



s
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Kevrob
2021-07-23 18:05:19 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:52:51 PM UTC-4, Jonathan wrote:

[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory

Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
--
Kevin R
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-23 20:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"

The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-07-24 00:09:44 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-24 03:04:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-07-24 08:13:08 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-25 04:00:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome. And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV

And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time. That is known history.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-07-25 04:40:32 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 23:00:09 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome. And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time. That is known history.
Those are the Apostols. How do you know that anybody else was
involved?
Quadibloc
2021-07-25 12:01:32 UTC
Permalink
Those are the Apostols. How do you know that anybody else was
involved?
I was unaware that Thomas M. Apostol, author of the two volume
textbook "Calculus", and his immediate family were particularly
involved with the spread of Christianity...

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-07-25 12:47:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 05:01:32 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Those are the Apostols. How do you know that anybody else was
involved?
I was unaware that Thomas M. Apostol, author of the two volume
textbook "Calculus", and his immediate family were particularly
involved with the spread of Christianity...
That's gospel of a different sort.
Gary R. Schmidt
2021-07-25 11:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know.  We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine.  The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no.  From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven.  These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives.  Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome.  And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time.  That is known history.
But the "New Testament" was heavily, and heavy-handedly, edited at the
council of Nicaea in 325 CE, who knows just what knives were being
ground by the idiots who did it, we know they didn't like what the Copts
were thinking, who knows what else they changed to suit themselves.

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
Waiting for a new signature to suggest itself...
Kevrob
2021-07-25 17:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome. And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
Luke?

[quote]

The traditional view recognizes that Luke was not an eyewitness of the events
in the Gospel, nor of the events prior to Paul's arrival in Troas in Acts 16:8, and
the first "we" passage is Acts 16:10. In the preface to Luke, the author refers
to having eyewitness testimony of events in the Gospel "handed down to us"
and to having undertaken a "careful investigation", but the author does not
mention his own name or explicitly claim to be an eyewitness to any of the
events, except for the we passages.

[/quote] - Authorship of Luke–Acts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_Luke%E2%80%93Acts

"Luke's" gospel and Acts are valid as document of what early Christians
believed happened, but it isn't eyewitness testimony. It might give us
info on the travels of Paul, post-Troas, if we allow that the author
was Luke the Physician, one of the tent-maker/apostle's companions.

Scholars such as Bart Ehrman don't even think Doc Luke wrote Acts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forged_(book)

Of course a certain type of believing Christian will say that the name
under the title doesn't matter, as long as the scribe was divinely inspired
to get things right. That leads to relying on the New Testament _as history_
for religious reasons. The opposite position would be slicing out all
the supernatural bits, a la Tom Jefferson's bible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
Post by Lynn McGuire
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time. That is known history.
See James Nicoll's comment re: Islam.
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
But the "New Testament" was heavily, and heavy-handedly, edited at the
council of Nicaea in 325 CE, who knows just what knives were being
ground by the idiots who did it, we know they didn't like what the Copts
were thinking, who knows what else they changed to suit themselves.
Again, one might have to buy that the Councils that decided
the biblical canon received special grace to get the job done.

The Protestant "reformers" disagreed about which books belonged.
--
Kevin R
Moriarty
2021-07-25 22:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome. And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time. That is known history.
But the "New Testament" was heavily, and heavy-handedly, edited at the
council of Nicaea in 325 CE, who knows just what knives were being
ground by the idiots who did it, we know they didn't like what the Copts
were thinking, who knows what else they changed to suit themselves.
That reminds me, there's a very nice game from the Chaosium called "Credo". The players control early factions of the church, each with different core beliefs as to the nature of the trinity etc. The object of the game is to amass power and influence and stack the council at Nicaea to get your doctrine accepted as the One True Faith. It had one flaw in that if a player could gain control of the Eastern Emperor, and manage to prevent him being assassinated, it was very hard to stop that player winning.

Lots of fun.

-Moriarty
Quadibloc
2021-07-26 11:16:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
But the "New Testament" was heavily, and heavy-handedly, edited at the
council of Nicaea in 325 CE, who knows just what knives were being
ground by the idiots who did it, we know they didn't like what the Copts
were thinking, who knows what else they changed to suit themselves.
If one compares the Bible to the various books of New Testament Apocrypha
and Pseudepigrapha, except for letting the Book of Revelations into the Bible,
they actually did a good job of picking out the texts that seemed coherent and
sensible enough to be worthy of being given respect and taken seriously.

So I don't think that the Council of Nicaea can actually be held to have done
all _that_ much to transmogrify Christianity.

John Savard
Paul S Person
2021-07-26 16:07:50 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 04:16:41 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
But the "New Testament" was heavily, and heavy-handedly, edited at the
council of Nicaea in 325 CE, who knows just what knives were being
ground by the idiots who did it, we know they didn't like what the Copts
were thinking, who knows what else they changed to suit themselves.
If one compares the Bible to the various books of New Testament Apocrypha
and Pseudepigrapha, except for letting the Book of Revelations into the Bible,
they actually did a good job of picking out the texts that seemed coherent and
sensible enough to be worthy of being given respect and taken seriously.
So I don't think that the Council of Nicaea can actually be held to have done
all _that_ much to transmogrify Christianity.
You should keep in mind that the Evil Council of Nicaea is a main
bugaboo of some Protestant traditions -- mainly those which deny the
Trinity.

But asserting that the New Testament was /edited/ by Nicaea is a new
twist; usually, they just claim that the council forced the Trinity on
the Church.

Or, at least, that was the case 20 years or so ago, when these
arguments were common on a newsgroup I was a member of.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Quadibloc
2021-07-27 07:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
But asserting that the New Testament was /edited/ by Nicaea is a new
twist; usually, they just claim that the council forced the Trinity on
the Church.
No doubt I got the Council of Nicaea mixed up with some _other_
gathering in which the canon of Scripture was settled.

Ah. The Council of Trent took place much too late. I was perhaps
thinking of the Synod of Hippo.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-07-27 08:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
But asserting that the New Testament was /edited/ by Nicaea is a new
twist; usually, they just claim that the council forced the Trinity on
the Church.
No doubt I got the Council of Nicaea mixed up with some _other_
gathering in which the canon of Scripture was settled.
Ah. The Council of Trent took place much too late. I was perhaps
thinking of the Synod of Hippo.
Further checking indicates that there never was a council of the early
Church where they sorted out the canon of Scripture. They just went with
what was in the Septuagint instead of making the decision that, say,
the Book of Enoch didn't make the cut.

But that's maybe because it was considered to be part of the Old Testament
if it was a part of the Bible at all. Clearly a conscious decision on which books
to include in the New Testament was required; the Jews would not have done
_that_ for them.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-07-27 08:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
But that's maybe because it was considered to be part of the Old Testament
if it was a part of the Bible at all. Clearly a conscious decision on which books
to include in the New Testament was required; the Jews would not have done
_that_ for them.
Ah. A tentative answer was needed for Constantine, and apparently the
First Council of Nicaea did supply it; the present canon was agreed to at
the Council of Rome, which slightly preceded the Synod of Hippo.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-07-27 08:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
But that's maybe because it was considered to be part of the Old Testament
if it was a part of the Bible at all. Clearly a conscious decision on which books
to include in the New Testament was required; the Jews would not have done
_that_ for them.
Ah. A tentative answer was needed for Constantine, and apparently the
First Council of Nicaea did supply it; the present canon was agreed to at
the Council of Rome, which slightly preceded the Synod of Hippo.
In any case, I now see the source of my confusion. I carelessly assumed there
was at least *some* truth in the myth that at some point, the high officials of
the early Church got together to suppress those writings which revealed that
Jesus had travelled to Tibet aboard a flying saucer to learn the teachings that
would later inspire Christianity as well as enabling Him to perform apparent
miracles.

John Savard
Thomas Koenig
2021-07-27 10:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
In any case, I now see the source of my confusion. I carelessly assumed there
was at least *some* truth in the myth that at some point, the high officials of
the early Church got together to suppress those writings which revealed that
Jesus had travelled to Tibet aboard a flying saucer to learn the teachings that
would later inspire Christianity as well as enabling Him to perform apparent
miracles.
You're confusing that with "The Life of Brian", and even there it didn't
quite happen that way.
Paul S Person
2021-07-27 16:17:45 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 01:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
But that's maybe because it was considered to be part of the Old Testament
if it was a part of the Bible at all. Clearly a conscious decision on which books
to include in the New Testament was required; the Jews would not have done
_that_ for them.
Ah. A tentative answer was needed for Constantine, and apparently the
First Council of Nicaea did supply it; the present canon was agreed to at
the Council of Rome, which slightly preceded the Synod of Hippo.
In any case, I now see the source of my confusion. I carelessly assumed there
was at least *some* truth in the myth that at some point, the high officials of
the early Church got together to suppress those writings which revealed that
Jesus had travelled to Tibet aboard a flying saucer to learn the teachings that
would later inspire Christianity as well as enabling Him to perform apparent
miracles.
Nice 4-part attempt to wriggle out of it.

BTW, the entire /concept/ of a "New Testament" was created by a
condemned heretic, who put out a collection containing (IIRC) Luke and
a few Epistles -- and /that/ collection /was/ edited to support his
viewpoint.

The concept of collecting the earliest and most reliable works they
could find, however, was taken over and expanded on.

Some research:
"From the range of texts, Christian leaders decided upon a small canon
of just 27 documents, which became known as the New Testament. The
first person to list the 27 books was the Bishop of Alexandria,
Athanasius, in a letter dated 367CE, stating that these and no others,
should be considered canonical."

The earlier attempt was by Marcion:
"The oldest and first attempt to form a verified and canonical
collection of writings was that of Marcion, who selected an older
version of the Gospel of Luke and ten letters of Paul, in around
150CE."

The link is
<http://www.humanreligions.info/creation_of_the_new_testament.html>,
which is simply the first Bing brought up. I have no idea what /their/
ideology may be.

Bing provides this extract on Marcion:
"Marcion preached that the benevolent God of the Gospel who sent Jesus
Christ into the world as the savior was the true Supreme Being,
different from and opposed to the malevolent demiurge or creator god,
identified with the Hebrew God of the Old Testament."

Wikipedia has <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope>, which
has this additional information:
"Marcion held Jesus to be the son of the Heavenly Father but
understood the incarnation in a docetic manner, i.e. that Jesus' body
was only an imitation of a material body, and consequently denied
Jesus' physical and bodily birth, death, and resurrection."

He was condemned as a heretic, and excommunitated from Rome about 144.

There was a Marcionite Church that kept on going for several
centuries. Docetism itself still exists, IIRC.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2021-07-28 16:13:27 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 13:27:25 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
Wikipedia has <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope>, which
"Marcion held Jesus to be the son of the Heavenly Father but
understood the incarnation in a docetic manner, i.e. that Jesus' body
was only an imitation of a material body, and consequently denied
Jesus' physical and bodily birth, death, and resurrection."
He was condemned as a heretic, and excommunitated from Rome about 144.
They were surprisingly ethical about it. He was given back the property he had donated
to the church.
This is called "having a sense of honor".

Something we appear to have forgotten, as a culture.
Post by Paul S Person
There was a Marcionite Church that kept on going for several
centuries.
All the more impressive as Marcionites didn't give birth to little Marcionites. Like the Shakers,
they had to recruit.
Apparently there is evidence that the Marcionite church lasted until at least 500.
There is a christian martyrdom account from about 270 in which the narrator complains
that the holy man was being crucified alongside a "son of satan", in this case a Marcionite.
The Romans didn't distinguish between the two.
To the Romans, it was like distinguishing between Tweedledum and
Tweedledee.

That changed after the Christians took over, of course.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
James Nicoll
2021-07-25 13:24:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome. And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time. That is known history.
You must be an incredible supporter of the validity of Islam, then. And
LDS. Somehow, I bet you have an escape clause.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
J. Clarke
2021-07-25 20:20:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 15:03:06 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome. And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time. That is known history.
You must be an incredible supporter of the validity of Islam, then. And
LDS. Somehow, I bet you have an escape clause.
Islam spread at the point of the sword. LDS is a form of Christianity.
A very strange form.
So where did all the Islamic swordsmen come from? It's not like
Mohammed was Musashi, single-handedly killing every swordmaster who
was dumb enough to get in front of him.
Gary R. Schmidt
2021-07-26 06:24:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know.  We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine.  The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no.  From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven.  These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives.  Otherwise, God's
Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome.  And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time.  That is known history.
You must be an incredible supporter of the validity of Islam, then. And
LDS. Somehow, I bet you have an escape clause.
Islam spread at the point of the sword.
Wrong. You really don't know much history, do you?
  LDS is a form of Christianity.
 A very strange form.
Ah! A right bit!

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
Waiting for a new signature to suggest itself...
Robert Woodward
2021-07-26 16:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know.  We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine.  The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no.  From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven.  These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives.  Otherwise, God's
Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome.  And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time.  That is known history.
You must be an incredible supporter of the validity of Islam, then. And
LDS. Somehow, I bet you have an escape clause.
Islam spread at the point of the sword.
Wrong. You really don't know much history, do you?
AFAICT, every country in the world that is majority Islam was first
conquered by an Islamic empire. By the time that Islamic empire
collapsed, the Islam had went from an insignificant part of the
population to a near majority, if not majority. Perhaps this process was
not forced per se, but it was definitely encouraged.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-26 17:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know.  We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine.  The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
Islam spread at the point of the sword.
Wrong. You really don't know much history, do you?
AFAICT, every country in the world that is majority Islam was first
conquered by an Islamic empire. By the time that Islamic empire
collapsed, the Islam had went from an insignificant part of the
population to a near majority, if not majority. Perhaps this process was
not forced per se, but it was definitely encouraged.
Likewise for Christianity, pretty much everywhere. Heinlein's
analogy of the pink monkey in a cage of brown monkeys comes to mind,
particularly in the smaller communities of the dark and middle
ages.

Speaking of analogies, are you familiar with Karl der Grosse?

It would be folly, I think, to write a word concerning Charles'
birth and infancy, or even his boyhood, for nothing has ever
been written on the subject, and there is no one alive now who
can give information on it.
-- Einhard

And, as for oral traditions, one need only recall the telephone game.
J. Clarke
2021-07-26 20:59:03 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 09:52:58 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know.  We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine.  The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no.  From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven.  These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives.  Otherwise, God's
Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome.  And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time.  That is known history.
You must be an incredible supporter of the validity of Islam, then. And
LDS. Somehow, I bet you have an escape clause.
Islam spread at the point of the sword.
Wrong. You really don't know much history, do you?
AFAICT, every country in the world that is majority Islam was first
conquered by an Islamic empire. By the time that Islamic empire
collapsed, the Islam had went from an insignificant part of the
population to a near majority, if not majority. Perhaps this process was
not forced per se, but it was definitely encouraged.
What Islamic empire conquered Indonesia?
Kevrob
2021-07-27 06:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 09:52:58 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical
criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its
outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's
Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome. And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time. That is known history.
You must be an incredible supporter of the validity of Islam, then. And
LDS. Somehow, I bet you have an escape clause.
Islam spread at the point of the sword.
Wrong. You really don't know much history, do you?
AFAICT, every country in the world that is majority Islam was first
conquered by an Islamic empire. By the time that Islamic empire
collapsed, the Islam had went from an insignificant part of the
population to a near majority, if not majority. Perhaps this process was
not forced per se, but it was definitely encouraged.
What Islamic empire conquered Indonesia?
The Muslims used a technique often employed by the Christians in
Europe: convert a local king, then watch as social climbing subjects
scramble to follow his lead, if not from piety, then from a desire to
gain the monarch's favor. Still,

[quote]

It was initially believed that Islam penetrated Indonesian society in a largely
peaceful way, (which is still largely true according to many scholars) and
from the 14th century to the end of the 19th century the archipelago saw
almost no organised Muslim missionary activity. Later findings of scholars
say that some parts of Java, i.e. Sundanese West Java and the kingdom of
Majapahit on East Java was conquered by Javanese Muslims. The Hindu-
Buddhist Sunda Kingdom of Pajajaran was conquered by Muslims in the
16th century, while the Muslim-coastal and Hindu-Buddhist-interior part of
East Java was often at war. Organised spread of Islam is also evident by the
existence of the Wali Sanga (nine holy patriarchs) who are credited for the
Islamisation of Indonesia during this period.

[/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam_in_Indonesia

The typical toolkit of the missionary was at work. If the message alone
wasn't enough, use bribery, force or any trickery to push the product.
--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
J. Clarke
2021-07-27 11:06:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 09:52:58 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical
criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its
outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his
burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's
Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome. And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time. That is known history.
You must be an incredible supporter of the validity of Islam, then. And
LDS. Somehow, I bet you have an escape clause.
Islam spread at the point of the sword.
Wrong. You really don't know much history, do you?
AFAICT, every country in the world that is majority Islam was first
conquered by an Islamic empire. By the time that Islamic empire
collapsed, the Islam had went from an insignificant part of the
population to a near majority, if not majority. Perhaps this process was
not forced per se, but it was definitely encouraged.
What Islamic empire conquered Indonesia?
The Muslims used a technique often employed by the Christians in
Europe: convert a local king, then watch as social climbing subjects
scramble to follow his lead, if not from piety, then from a desire to
gain the monarch's favor. Still,
[quote]
It was initially believed that Islam penetrated Indonesian society in a largely
peaceful way, (which is still largely true according to many scholars) and
from the 14th century to the end of the 19th century the archipelago saw
almost no organised Muslim missionary activity. Later findings of scholars
say that some parts of Java, i.e. Sundanese West Java and the kingdom of
Majapahit on East Java was conquered by Javanese Muslims. The Hindu-
Buddhist Sunda Kingdom of Pajajaran was conquered by Muslims in the
16th century, while the Muslim-coastal and Hindu-Buddhist-interior part of
East Java was often at war. Organised spread of Islam is also evident by the
existence of the Wali Sanga (nine holy patriarchs) who are credited for the
Islamisation of Indonesia during this period.
[/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam_in_Indonesia
The typical toolkit of the missionary was at work. If the message alone
wasn't enough, use bribery, force or any trickery to push the product.
I don't see any conquest by empires there.
Robert Woodward
2021-07-27 17:01:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 09:52:58 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:52:51 PM UTC-4, Jonathan
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ
myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical
criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its
outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from
the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his
burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly
and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's
Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome. And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world
in a
very short time. That is known history.
You must be an incredible supporter of the validity of Islam, then. And
LDS. Somehow, I bet you have an escape clause.
Islam spread at the point of the sword.
Wrong. You really don't know much history, do you?
AFAICT, every country in the world that is majority Islam was first
conquered by an Islamic empire. By the time that Islamic empire
collapsed, the Islam had went from an insignificant part of the
population to a near majority, if not majority. Perhaps this process was
not forced per se, but it was definitely encouraged.
What Islamic empire conquered Indonesia?
The Muslims used a technique often employed by the Christians in
Europe: convert a local king, then watch as social climbing subjects
scramble to follow his lead, if not from piety, then from a desire to
gain the monarch's favor. Still,
[quote]
It was initially believed that Islam penetrated Indonesian society in a largely
peaceful way, (which is still largely true according to many scholars) and
from the 14th century to the end of the 19th century the archipelago saw
almost no organised Muslim missionary activity. Later findings of scholars
say that some parts of Java, i.e. Sundanese West Java and the kingdom of
Majapahit on East Java was conquered by Javanese Muslims. The Hindu-
Buddhist Sunda Kingdom of Pajajaran was conquered by Muslims in the
16th century, while the Muslim-coastal and Hindu-Buddhist-interior part of
East Java was often at war. Organised spread of Islam is also evident by the
existence of the Wali Sanga (nine holy patriarchs) who are credited for the
Islamisation of Indonesia during this period.
[/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam_in_Indonesia
The typical toolkit of the missionary was at work. If the message alone
wasn't enough, use bribery, force or any trickery to push the product.
I don't see any conquest by empires there.
There were a bunch of wars, those Hindu-Buddhist regions didn't cease to
be self-governing on their own. Empires might not had been quite the
right word (it was the last edit before my post) - I will point out that
my use of empire is not limited to regions as large as the Roman,
Persian, and Chinese empires.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Paul S Person
2021-07-28 16:17:40 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 10:01:20 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 09:52:58 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 2:52:51 PM UTC-4, Jonathan
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ
myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical
criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its
outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from
the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his
burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly
and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's
Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome. And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world
in a
very short time. That is known history.
You must be an incredible supporter of the validity of Islam, then. And
LDS. Somehow, I bet you have an escape clause.
Islam spread at the point of the sword.
Wrong. You really don't know much history, do you?
AFAICT, every country in the world that is majority Islam was first
conquered by an Islamic empire. By the time that Islamic empire
collapsed, the Islam had went from an insignificant part of the
population to a near majority, if not majority. Perhaps this process was
not forced per se, but it was definitely encouraged.
What Islamic empire conquered Indonesia?
The Muslims used a technique often employed by the Christians in
Europe: convert a local king, then watch as social climbing subjects
scramble to follow his lead, if not from piety, then from a desire to
gain the monarch's favor. Still,
[quote]
It was initially believed that Islam penetrated Indonesian society in a largely
peaceful way, (which is still largely true according to many scholars) and
from the 14th century to the end of the 19th century the archipelago saw
almost no organised Muslim missionary activity. Later findings of scholars
say that some parts of Java, i.e. Sundanese West Java and the kingdom of
Majapahit on East Java was conquered by Javanese Muslims. The Hindu-
Buddhist Sunda Kingdom of Pajajaran was conquered by Muslims in the
16th century, while the Muslim-coastal and Hindu-Buddhist-interior part of
East Java was often at war. Organised spread of Islam is also evident by the
existence of the Wali Sanga (nine holy patriarchs) who are credited for the
Islamisation of Indonesia during this period.
[/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam_in_Indonesia
The typical toolkit of the missionary was at work. If the message alone
wasn't enough, use bribery, force or any trickery to push the product.
I don't see any conquest by empires there.
There were a bunch of wars, those Hindu-Buddhist regions didn't cease to
be self-governing on their own. Empires might not had been quite the
right word (it was the last edit before my post) - I will point out that
my use of empire is not limited to regions as large as the Roman,
Persian, and Chinese empires.
The original contention was that "Islam spread at swordpoint" or
something similar. (Yes, I'm too lazy to look it up.)

But the response was to a post about Muslim Empires, and so is
relevant to that.

The transition happened because "Islam" in the original assertion
refers more to the /political/ spread than the /religious/ spread, at
least as far as Jews and Christians were concerned.

Although, IIRC, they /did/ help remove the Donatist Church from the
map when they conquered North Africa.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
James Nicoll
2021-07-27 13:37:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 09:52:58 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical
criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its
outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his
burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's
Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
Read the book of Luke which is an appeal to the people of Rome. And
then the book of Acts which is the story of the early Church.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201&version=NIV
and
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1&version=NIV
And I know it happened because Christianity spread across the world in a
very short time. That is known history.
You must be an incredible supporter of the validity of Islam, then. And
LDS. Somehow, I bet you have an escape clause.
Islam spread at the point of the sword.
Wrong. You really don't know much history, do you?
AFAICT, every country in the world that is majority Islam was first
conquered by an Islamic empire. By the time that Islamic empire
collapsed, the Islam had went from an insignificant part of the
population to a near majority, if not majority. Perhaps this process was
not forced per se, but it was definitely encouraged.
What Islamic empire conquered Indonesia?
The Muslims used a technique often employed by the Christians in
Europe: convert a local king, then watch as social climbing subjects
scramble to follow his lead, if not from piety, then from a desire to
gain the monarch's favor. Still,
[quote]
It was initially believed that Islam penetrated Indonesian society in a largely
peaceful way, (which is still largely true according to many scholars) and
from the 14th century to the end of the 19th century the archipelago saw
almost no organised Muslim missionary activity. Later findings of scholars
say that some parts of Java, i.e. Sundanese West Java and the kingdom of
Majapahit on East Java was conquered by Javanese Muslims. The Hindu-
Buddhist Sunda Kingdom of Pajajaran was conquered by Muslims in the
16th century, while the Muslim-coastal and Hindu-Buddhist-interior part of
East Java was often at war. Organised spread of Islam is also evident by the
existence of the Wali Sanga (nine holy patriarchs) who are credited for the
Islamisation of Indonesia during this period.
[/quote] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam_in_Indonesia
The typical toolkit of the missionary was at work. If the message alone
wasn't enough, use bribery, force or any trickery to push the product.
See for example Residential Schools, used to forceably covert whichever
kidnapped children actually managed to survive the conditions there. Wait,
that was Christians and Protestants, not Muslims.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-25 14:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:04:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
How did they spread it and how do you know this?
Because several of their stories are documented in the New Testament.
All of the gospels were written 80 to 100+ years after the fact. Try again.
Robert Carnegie
2021-07-24 10:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
This is why there are over 500 gospels? Including at least
one by Judas.
John Halpenny
2021-07-25 00:34:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
This is why there are over 500 gospels? Including at least
one by Judas.
Am I correct in believing that all of the original gospels were written in Greek? Greek writers would be very familiar with stories of God coming to earth and producing a son. The son has various semi godly powers, but eventually suffers a human death.
There are many early Christian stories, and only a few of them made it into the bible.

John
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-25 04:11:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
This is why there are over 500 gospels? Including at least
one by Judas.
Many of those so-called gospels are false, Judith, Thomas, etc. The New
Testament Canon generally only has 27 books in it, even from the
earliest work around 200 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-07-25 04:41:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 23:11:27 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
This is why there are over 500 gospels? Including at least
one by Judas.
Many of those so-called gospels are false, Judith, Thomas, etc. The New
Testament Canon generally only has 27 books in it, even from the
earliest work around 200 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon
But you claim that there were 500 people. Where are their books?
Alan Baker
2021-07-25 19:41:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 23:11:27 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
This is why there are over 500 gospels? Including at least
one by Judas.
Many of those so-called gospels are false, Judith, Thomas, etc. The New
Testament Canon generally only has 27 books in it, even from the
earliest work around 200 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon
But you claim that there were 500 people. Where are their books?
I admire the attempt...

...but he's never going to get it.
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-25 20:06:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 23:11:27 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
This is why there are over 500 gospels? Including at least
one by Judas.
Many of those so-called gospels are false, Judith, Thomas, etc. The New
Testament Canon generally only has 27 books in it, even from the
earliest work around 200 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon
But you claim that there were 500 people. Where are their books?
They were generally busy spreading the word, not writing books.

And if they did write a "book", the contents may have been a repeat of
other books and not needed.

Very few of the original 11 Apostles wrote books that were included in
the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, John, Peter, and Jude.

Lynn
Robert Carnegie
2021-07-25 23:33:51 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 15:06:50 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 23:11:27 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
This is why there are over 500 gospels? Including at least
one by Judas.
Many of those so-called gospels are false, Judith, Thomas, etc. The New
Testament Canon generally only has 27 books in it, even from the
earliest work around 200 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon
But you claim that there were 500 people. Where are their books?
They were generally busy spreading the word, not writing books.
How do you know this?
Post by Lynn McGuire
And if they did write a "book", the contents may have been a repeat of
other books and not needed.
Very few of the original 11 Apostles wrote books that were included in
the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, John, Peter, and Jude.
Did they mention this other 500 that you are so certain were there and
going around all over the Roman Empire spreading the word?
Summed up in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-resurrection_appearances_of_Jesus>

St Paul in 1 Corinthians mentions "more than 500"
people who saw Jesus up and about after he died.
"Brothers" or "brothers and sisters", depending on
which language you read in. Wikipedia thinks that
Paul is repeating a (recent) traditional formula of
Christians.

In Acts chapter 1, it appears that the entire church
when Jesus leaves is "around 120 people", but I don't
have it clear whether they all saw him or only the
eleven remaining apostles did. More people might
have seen him fly off (until he flew into a cloud), and
they might have converted later.

The other occasions are apostles only or other people
in single figures, I think.

The stories are not consistent about Jesus appearing
in the cemetery, or in Galilee, or in Jerusalem.

The Colosseum in Rome was built later, but from
Wikipedia it seems that he could have dropped in on
the Circus Maximus and addressed 100,000 people.
But almost certainly he didn't.
J. Clarke
2021-07-26 01:13:39 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:33:51 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 15:06:50 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 23:11:27 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
This is why there are over 500 gospels? Including at least
one by Judas.
Many of those so-called gospels are false, Judith, Thomas, etc. The New
Testament Canon generally only has 27 books in it, even from the
earliest work around 200 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon
But you claim that there were 500 people. Where are their books?
They were generally busy spreading the word, not writing books.
How do you know this?
Post by Lynn McGuire
And if they did write a "book", the contents may have been a repeat of
other books and not needed.
Very few of the original 11 Apostles wrote books that were included in
the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, John, Peter, and Jude.
Did they mention this other 500 that you are so certain were there and
going around all over the Roman Empire spreading the word?
Summed up in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-resurrection_appearances_of_Jesus>
St Paul in 1 Corinthians mentions "more than 500"
people who saw Jesus up and about after he died.
"Brothers" or "brothers and sisters", depending on
which language you read in. Wikipedia thinks that
Paul is repeating a (recent) traditional formula of
Christians.
But did those 500 go spreading the word? This presupposes that they
have the wherewithal to go far and wide--spreading the word around
Jerusalem wouldn't do it.
Post by Robert Carnegie
In Acts chapter 1, it appears that the entire church
when Jesus leaves is "around 120 people", but I don't
have it clear whether they all saw him or only the
eleven remaining apostles did. More people might
have seen him fly off (until he flew into a cloud), and
they might have converted later.
The other occasions are apostles only or other people
in single figures, I think.
The stories are not consistent about Jesus appearing
in the cemetery, or in Galilee, or in Jerusalem.
The Colosseum in Rome was built later, but from
Wikipedia it seems that he could have dropped in on
the Circus Maximus and addressed 100,000 people.
But almost certainly he didn't.
Robert Carnegie
2021-07-26 10:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:33:51 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 15:06:50 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 23:11:27 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
Did those people "spread the word" or was it the disciples?
All.
This is why there are over 500 gospels? Including at least
one by Judas.
Many of those so-called gospels are false, Judith, Thomas, etc. The New
Testament Canon generally only has 27 books in it, even from the
earliest work around 200 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon
But you claim that there were 500 people. Where are their books?
They were generally busy spreading the word, not writing books.
How do you know this?
Post by Lynn McGuire
And if they did write a "book", the contents may have been a repeat of
other books and not needed.
Very few of the original 11 Apostles wrote books that were included in
the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, John, Peter, and Jude.
Did they mention this other 500 that you are so certain were there and
going around all over the Roman Empire spreading the word?
Summed up in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-resurrection_appearances_of_Jesus>
St Paul in 1 Corinthians mentions "more than 500"
people who saw Jesus up and about after he died.
"Brothers" or "brothers and sisters", depending on
which language you read in. Wikipedia thinks that
Paul is repeating a (recent) traditional formula of
Christians.
But did those 500 go spreading the word? This presupposes that they
have the wherewithal to go far and wide--spreading the word around
Jerusalem wouldn't do it.
I think what we were trying to argue is whether Jesus
exists or not. And, belated thought, this probably isn't
the group for that.
J. Clarke
2021-07-26 11:24:33 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 04:12:01 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Robert Carnegie
I think what we were trying to argue is whether Jesus
exists or not. And, belated thought, this probably isn't
the group for that.
I have no problem with a historical Jesus existing.
It seems to make more sense than somebody writing
the four Gospels while in his mother's basement, and
somehow getting them to catch on. First, one has the
charismatic figure who starts a popular movement -
then one has the game of telephone that distorts things
before the movement becomes a modern religion.
While religious figures sometimes complain that the
popular, sentimentalized image of Jesus isn't accurate...
it is things like the Sermon on the Mount, and the basic
idea that what matters is genuine kindness rather than
ritual observance, which would have had power and
appeal. Thus, I suspect that part really happened.
The later emphasis on obedience to priestly authority
can be expected to have been a later addition - as the
Documentary Hypothesis says it was before.
For once I agree. I don't understand why anybody would want to argue
that "Jesus didn't exist". A perambulating preacher named "Jesus"
just isn't that unlikely.

Now that he did what they say he did, that's another story.

And it's all subject to interpretation--how do we know he was not just
merely dead but really most sincerely dead?
Kevrob
2021-07-24 01:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
We know he existed, ......
No, we don't know. We have a lot of stories about Yeshua,
a very common name in 1st Century CE Palestine. The
stories could be about one supposed miracle worker or a
composite of several preachers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
Compare to stories about King Arthur v any historical
Romano-Briton war leader of similar name.
Um, no. From the wikipedia article that you noted, "The Christ myth
theory is a fringe theory that is rejected by most scholars and
supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism
or cognate disciplines.[q 3][7][8][9] It is criticised for its outdated
reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the
mainstream historical view.[10]"
The Bible documents that over 500 people saw Jesus between his burial
and his rise into Heaven. These people spread the word eagerly and
around the world for the rest of their lives. Otherwise, God's Church
would have never grown geometrically like it did.
That list of "scholars" is well-padded by theologians and "church
historians" who have a vested interest with coming up with that
conclusion. I don't think the credible evidence for a "historical Jesus"
close to the one outlined in Christian scripture is there, at least not of
the sort used by secular historians to verify the existence of any other
ancient figure. Some of the accounts relied on by apologists were
inserted long after the fact (See Josephus)* or didn't even manage to
mention the name his "earthly" parents would have given him: Yeshua/
Joshua/Romanized as Jesus. (See Seutonius) Why someone who didn't
believe the carpenter was a Jewish savior would call him "the anointed
one" (messiah/christos) I'd never know. Writing it down as "chresto" or
"chrestus" makes it even less convincing to some.

Do I think there was at least 1 first century CE traveling religious
reformer known as Yeshua? Very likely so. But the records of the
Roman procurator's office re: his execution have never been found.

When I was younger, the joke was that more people claimed
to have seen Wilt Chamberlain drop 100 points on the Knickerbockers
than could fit in Madison Square Garden. But the game was played
in Harrisburg, PA. People lie about such things.†

* To see how the text was monkeyed with:

https://pages.uncc.edu/james-tabor/ancient-judaism/josephus-jesus/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pious_fraud

† https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain%27s_100-point_game

{See section: Legacy}
--
Kevin R
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