Finally.

[Krusty]

I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a correct
diagnosis of my knee injury, which the 2 NHS doctors I'd seen
previously failed to provide. It's a grade 2 MCL (Medial Collateral
Ligament) tear. He reckons it'll take another 3 months or so to fully
heal, & need lots of physio.

The A&E doctor I saw when it happened should've put a brace on it for 3
weeks & told me to rest it, but instead he just told me to carry on
using it as normal, hence the total recovery time is 5 months rather
than the 6-8 weeks it would've been. Needless to say that's pissed me
off. A lot.

I did wonder at the time how a doctor could tell you what to do with an
injury when they couldn't diagnosis it (he said "it's a bit of a
mystery"), but figured he knew what he was talking about. It was after
all a Sunday afternoon, when A&E is packed with sports injuries, so
you'd think the doctors working then would have a clue about such
things. And knee ligament tears are *very* common amongst the Sunday
morning sporting crowd.

I'm now seriously considering talking to a solicitor about it. It's
caused me a few months of needless pain, forced me to cancel my
holiday, cost me over 500 quid for a knee brace & private doctor, &
potentially left me with a permanently weakened knee as the tear may
not fully heal, having been constantly stressed while I carried on
using the leg as normal.

[1] Bath & England rugby doc.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Krusty
I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a correct
diagnosis of my knee injury

How do you know that? Is it what you thought it was?

[Krusty]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Krusty
I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a
correct diagnosis of my knee injury

How do you know that? Is it what you thought it was?

Yes. Lots of googling made me suspect it was the MCL based on how it
gave way the second time[1], & what type of leg movement caused the
most pain. What I didn't know is what grade injury it is, & how I
should treat it, hence last night's visit.

Even if I didn't have a clue, the guy I saw last night is one of the
country's top experts in such things so I'm going to trust his opinion
regardless.

[1] This could've been bad. I was windsurfing[2] & a long way out. If
the tide was going out rather than coming in, I doubt I would've been
able to paddle back to shore. There were a few other windsurfers around
so I could've attracted attention, but it probably would've meant an
RNLI call-out.

[2] Which I wouldn't have been doing if the A&E doc had got it right.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Krusty

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Krusty
I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a
correct diagnosis of my knee injury

How do you know that? Is it what you thought it was?

Yes. Lots of googling made me suspect it was the MCL

Heh. I now know that the pains in my legs were a warning of the upcoming
stroke, although the medics keep denying it. All the medical profession deny
any connection, but Google searches *assure* me of the truth.

[Krusty]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Krusty

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Krusty
I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a
correct diagnosis of my knee injury

How do you know that? Is it what you thought it was?

Yes. Lots of googling made me suspect it was the MCL

Heh. I now know that the pains in my legs were a warning of the
upcoming stroke, although the medics keep denying it. All the medical
profession deny any connection, but Google searches assure me of the
truth.

L's chronic pain is much improved now thanks to stuff I found by
googling - stuff the doctors treating her for the last 20 years didn't
know. And my fungal nail infection's getting a lot better, again thanks
to googling. The GP's cure, which didn't work, involved taking some
particularly potent drugs that made me feel like utter shite for the 6
months I was taking them.

It's disappointing, but I don't really expect GPs to be able to keep up
to date with such things. They'd have to spend all day reading studies
rather than treating people to do that.

[steve auvache]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:57:33 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty
It's disappointing, but I don't really expect GPs to be able to keep up
to date with such things. They'd have to spend all day reading studies
rather than treating people to do that.

And in what way are A&E doctors any different? Other than they are, for
the most part, very junior, very overworked and very much under pressure
to tick boxes marked Time to Next Patient Becoming SEP.

[Krusty]

Post by steve auvache
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:57:33 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty
It's disappointing, but I don't really expect GPs to be able to
keep up to date with such things. They'd have to spend all day
reading studies rather than treating people to do that.

And in what way are A&E doctors any different?

They're not, but we're talking a simple, common knee ligament tear
here. It should be bread & butter stuff to any doctor.

[YTC#1]

Post by steve auvache
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:57:33 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty
It's disappointing, but I don't really expect GPs to be able to keep
up to date with such things. They'd have to spend all day reading
studies rather than treating people to do that.

And in what way are A&E doctors any different?

They're not, but we're talking a simple, common knee ligament tear here.
It should be bread & butter stuff to any doctor.

Don't agree.

[YTC#1]

Post by YTC#1

Post by steve auvache
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:57:33 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty
It's disappointing, but I don't really expect GPs to be able to keep
up to date with such things. They'd have to spend all day reading
studies rather than treating people to do that.

And in what way are A&E doctors any different?

They're not, but we're talking a simple, common knee ligament tear here.
It should be bread & butter stuff to any doctor.

Don't agree.

Bad form etc... but I was running out the door.

What I meant to add was that doctors are generalists, and as he was in a
busy (it would appear) A&E he may well have not had all the skills you
required, however had you not been brathing he would have probably been
able to save you.

Take a modern car like a BMW to a general garage, and you may be able to
get the plugs and oil changed, any more than that you need the specialist.

[Krusty]

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty

Post by steve auvache
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:57:33 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty
It's disappointing, but I don't really expect GPs to be able to

keep >>> > up to date with such things. They'd have to spend all day
reading >>> > studies rather than treating people to do that.

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty

Post by steve auvache
And in what way are A&E doctors any different?

They're not, but we're talking a simple, common knee ligament tear

here. >> It should be bread & butter stuff to any doctor.

Post by YTC#1
Don't agree.

Bad form etc... but I was running out the door.
What I meant to add was that doctors are generalists, and as he was
in a busy (it would appear) A&E he may well have not had all the
skills you required, however had you not been brathing he would have
probably been able to save you.

So what you & several others are saying is that the 'A' of A&E simply
doesn't work unless it's something blatantly obvious that doesn't need
diagnosing. I'll remember this thread next time someone claims the NHS
doesn't need major reform.

[Hog]

Post by Krusty
I'll remember this thread next time someone claims the NHS
doesn't need major reform.

*Welcome Brother*

<whispers>
watch out for that Irvine fellow

[Colin Irvine]

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
I'll remember this thread next time someone claims the NHS
doesn't need major reform.

*Welcome Brother*
<whispers>
watch out for that Irvine fellow

<g> Oh I believe it needs major reform all right, it's just that I
would see it go in a completely different direction - one where health
services were planned and provided across the country in a logical and
efficient manner, with hospitals encouraged to co-operate with each
other, and the real money-wasting initiatives such as "competition"
and "patient choice" were sacrificed to the achievement of a better
and cheaper NHS.

[Hog]

Post by Colin Irvine

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
I'll remember this thread next time someone claims the NHS
doesn't need major reform.

*Welcome Brother*
<whispers>
watch out for that Irvine fellow

<g> Oh I believe it needs major reform all right, it's just that I
would see it go in a completely different direction - one where health
services were planned and provided across the country in a logical and
efficient manner, with hospitals encouraged to co-operate with each
other, and the real money-wasting initiatives such as "competition"
and "patient choice" were sacrificed to the achievement of a better
and cheaper NHS.

I tend to agree with a centrally managed provision of services.
Responsibility for delivery at a local level. Clinical departments being
NHS/Public sector.
Just happen to know that everything non clinical should be provided under
Contract by the private sector and that son of PFI should be in place to
ensure that infrastructure standards are planned today and delivered today
and tomorrow, free of interference by politicians and cilil servants.
It will cost what it needs to cost. The nation can easily afford it.

[steve auvache]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:21:13 +0100, Colin Irvine

Post by Colin Irvine

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
I'll remember this thread next time someone claims the NHS
doesn't need major reform.

*Welcome Brother*
<whispers>
watch out for that Irvine fellow

<g> Oh I believe it needs major reform all right, it's just that I
would see it go in a completely different direction - one where health
services were planned and provided across the country in a logical and
efficient manner,

A grand idea, if only people would not be so inconsiderate as to get sick
in an illogical or inefficient manner and we would be sorted.

Post by Colin Irvine
with hospitals encouraged to co-operate with each
other,

And this is not going to happen as long as there are fools who believe one
service must always be better than another simply because it costs.

Post by Colin Irvine
and the real money-wasting initiatives such as "competition"
and "patient choice" were sacrificed to the achievement of a better
and cheaper NHS.

Not the practices that need sacrificing, it is the protagonists.

[c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com]

Post by Colin Irvine
<g> Oh I believe it needs major reform all right, it's just that I
would see it go in a completely different direction - one where health
services were planned and provided across the country in a logical and
efficient manner, with hospitals encouraged to co-operate with each
other, and the real money-wasting initiatives such as "competition"
and "patient choice" were sacrificed to the achievement of a better
and cheaper NHS.

<rant>
You are, of course, missing the real point. The NHS is simply much
too big to be managed efficiently. Get rid of the "National" bit
and break it up into about a dozen regional services. Massive
manglement redundancies and more local accountability. Win-win
situation.

At the same time sort out the "Consultants" and give them their
proper role as employed specialist senior doctors. That should
sort out the prima donnas who are a major obstruction to
efficiency.

Then bring back Matron and Ward Sisters to clean up the wards
and a few less people might die of MRSA etc
</rant>

[steve auvache]

Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
The NHS is simply much
too big to be managed efficiently.

What utter fucking bollox.

Just because you couldn't manage anything larger than a very small dump
without an outside consultancy telling you what to do does not mean others
are as incapable. Now fuck off with your stupid attitudes and get a
fucking clue.

[wessie]

Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com

Post by Colin Irvine
<g> Oh I believe it needs major reform all right, it's just that I
would see it go in a completely different direction - one where
health services were planned and provided across the country in a
logical and efficient manner, with hospitals encouraged to co-operate
with each other, and the real money-wasting initiatives such as
"competition" and "patient choice" were sacrificed to the achievement
of a better and cheaper NHS.

<rant>
You are, of course, missing the real point. The NHS is simply much
too big to be managed efficiently. Get rid of the "National" bit
and break it up into about a dozen regional services. Massive
manglement redundancies and more local accountability. Win-win
situation.

So, a dozen regions with 5 million or so in each region?

Wales has a population of 3 million and the Wales NHS been run as a
separate entity since 1999. You'd think after 12 years they would be
getting it right by now. I can assure you they aren't. The ambulance
service is on the verge of collapse and new hospitals have been put on
hold whilst people from the coast in mid Wales have to to travel daily
to Cheltenham for oncology treatments.

Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
At the same time sort out the "Consultants" and give them their
proper role as employed specialist senior doctors. That should
sort out the prima donnas who are a major obstruction to
efficiency.

The consultants aren't the biggest problem. The infrastructure does not
exist for consultants to treat the volume of patients they could.
Surgeons could do more operations but there aren't the post operative
beds to accommodate the patients as they are full of medical cases
waiting for a bed in a community hospital, reablement centre, nursing
home etc.

Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
Then bring back Matron and Ward Sisters to clean up the wards
and a few less people might die of MRSA etc
</rant>

There aren't enough nurses to look after the patients properly let alone
supervise the cleaners.

[Colin Irvine]

Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com

Post by Colin Irvine
<g> Oh I believe it needs major reform all right, it's just that I
would see it go in a completely different direction - one where health
services were planned and provided across the country in a logical and
efficient manner, with hospitals encouraged to co-operate with each
other, and the real money-wasting initiatives such as "competition"
and "patient choice" were sacrificed to the achievement of a better
and cheaper NHS.

<rant>
You are, of course, missing the real point.

That's what comes of going through so many NHS reorganisations and
experiencing what works and what doesn't at first hand. It's just so
hard to ignore it.

Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
The NHS is simply much
too big to be managed efficiently. Get rid of the "National" bit
and break it up into about a dozen regional services.

What I had in mind was going back to the 13 (IIRC) Regional Health
Authorities managing the service, but this time without the associated
excessive bureaucracy and with some real clout. I'd say that was
"about a dozen" wouldn't you?

Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
Massive
manglement redundancies and more local accountability. Win-win
situation.

This is just utter nonsense.

Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
At the same time sort out the "Consultants" and give them their
proper role as employed specialist senior doctors. That should
sort out the prima donnas who are a major obstruction to
efficiency.

That has been happening for some years. And, unfortunately, for any
Consultant to take life and death decisions and live with those
decisions on a daily basis means that he/she must have a huge, and I
mean HUGE, faith in his/her own abilities. Personally I'm surprised
how often it is possible to find such a person without them coming
across as complete prima donnas.

Post by c***@NOSPAM.netunix.com
Then bring back Matron and Ward Sisters to clean up the wards
and a few less people might die of MRSA etc

Your ignorance of current hospital management achieves new levels,
even for you.

[Krusty]

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
I'll remember this thread next time someone claims the NHS
doesn't need major reform.

*Welcome Brother*

Oh I've been in that camp for years. An 89% increase in managers from
1999 - 2009 compared to a 35% increase in total staff means there's
something very, very wrong.

[Hog]

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
I'll remember this thread next time someone claims the NHS
doesn't need major reform.

*Welcome Brother*

Oh I've been in that camp for years. An 89% increase in managers from
1999 - 2009 compared to a 35% increase in total staff means there's
something very, very wrong.

Actually the NHS needs good management. I said GOOD.
The clinicians should be much too busy.

Take all the Estates, FM and ancillary management out of the public sector
and that issue will sort itself out

[Colin Irvine]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:19:55 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
I'll remember this thread next time someone claims the NHS
doesn't need major reform.

*Welcome Brother*

Oh I've been in that camp for years. An 89% increase in managers from
1999 - 2009 compared to a 35% increase in total staff means there's
something very, very wrong.

I'd be interested to know the source of that figure, and what is meant
by "manager" in that context.

[Krusty]

Post by Colin Irvine
On Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:19:55 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
I'll remember this thread next time someone claims the NHS
doesn't need major reform.

*Welcome Brother*

Oh I've been in that camp for years. An 89% increase in managers
from 1999 - 2009 compared to a 35% increase in total staff means
there's something very, very wrong.

I'd be interested to know the source of that figure, and what is meant
by "manager" in that context.

http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/current_projects/general_election_2010/key_e
lection_questions/how_many_managers.html

[steve auvache]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 12:16:42 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty

Post by steve auvache
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:57:33 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty
It's disappointing, but I don't really expect GPs to be able to
keep up to date with such things. They'd have to spend all day
reading studies rather than treating people to do that.

And in what way are A&E doctors any different?

They're not, but we're talking a simple, common knee ligament tear
here. It should be bread & butter stuff to any doctor.

Yes but...

You are looking from the perspective of a casual Sunday afternoon visitor
with an entirely non life threatening self inflicted minor wound. What
about those who get glassed in the pub on a Friday night? The doctor
having encyclopedic knowledge of sports injuries is going to be piss all
use for that one and that would be very unfortunate for any children of
nuns who accidentally get splashed with blood outside the pub and might
die from aids the implications for which from the doctors defence lawyers
point of view is a lot more prof^h^h^h^hpaperwork.

When you get to A&E it is all about priorities and yours was a very, very
low one and I would be tempted to wager money that at some time or other
you will have been a member of the set of those individuals who were
demanding it be so.

"Oh look there is a biker with a bone sticking through his leathers."

"Fuck him, let him bleed, we really do need to fill the time until the end
of the shift looking at this hurty knee."

[Krusty]

Post by steve auvache
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 12:16:42 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty

Post by steve auvache
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:57:33 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty
It's disappointing, but I don't really expect GPs to be able to
keep up to date with such things. They'd have to spend all day
reading studies rather than treating people to do that.

And in what way are A&E doctors any different?

They're not, but we're talking a simple, common knee ligament tear
here. It should be bread & butter stuff to any doctor.

Yes but...
You are looking from the perspective of a casual Sunday afternoon
visitor with an entirely non life threatening self inflicted minor
wound. What about those who get glassed in the pub on a Friday
night? The doctor having encyclopedic knowledge of sports injuries
is going to be piss all use for that one and that would be very
unfortunate for any children of nuns who accidentally get splashed
with blood outside the pub and might die from aids the implications
for which from the doctors defence lawyers point of view is a lot
more prof^h^h^h^hpaperwork.
When you get to A&E it is all about priorities and yours was a very,
very low one and I would be tempted to wager money that at some time
or other you will have been a member of the set of those individuals
who were demanding it be so.
"Oh look there is a biker with a bone sticking through his leathers."
"Fuck him, let him bleed, we really do need to fill the time until
the end of the shift looking at this hurty knee."

Which is why they do triage. They see you in order of severity based on
the triage nurse's assessment, not order of arrival. I wasn't getting
shouty or anything, I just sat there quietly for 2.5 hours, watching
others who arrived after me get seen before me, knowing they'd been
assessed as more urgent. I've got no problem with that at all.

Incidentally they tried to book me in for physio, but I had the
following week off work & didn't know if I'd be around so couldn't
commit to an appointment date. If I had gone for physio, & they didn't
spot what the problem was, there's a pretty good chance the grade 2
tear would've become a grade 3 (full) tear, which would need an
operation to fix. I find that pretty scary.

[steve auvache]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:12:12 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty
Which is why they do triage. They see you in order of severity based on
the triage nurse's assessment, not order of arrival. I wasn't getting
shouty or anything, I just sat there quietly for 2.5 hours, watching
others who arrived after me get seen before me, knowing they'd been
assessed as more urgent. I've got no problem with that at all.

Well you have. It is (probably) precisely those circumstances that
started you on the path which led you to where you are today.

You weren't going to die so you get pushed down the queue and there
eventually comes a time when the computer starts flashing telling them
that unless they get you out of there in under 27.2 minutes they will have
to fill in a form to tell some grey suit in a far too plush office why. In
other words, fuck your medical needs, they need to get you out the door as
sharp as they can.

Post by Krusty
Incidentally they tried to book me in for physio, but I had the
following week off work & didn't know if I'd be around so couldn't
commit to an appointment date.

You refused the treatment offered and you still want to make a claim? Good
luck.

[Krusty]

Post by steve auvache
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:12:12 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty
Which is why they do triage. They see you in order of severity
based on the triage nurse's assessment, not order of arrival. I
wasn't getting shouty or anything, I just sat there quietly for 2.5
hours, watching others who arrived after me get seen before me,
knowing they'd been assessed as more urgent. I've got no problem
with that at all.

Well you have. It is (probably) precisely those circumstances that
started you on the path which led you to where you are today.
You weren't going to die so you get pushed down the queue and there
eventually comes a time when the computer starts flashing telling them
that unless they get you out of there in under 27.2 minutes they will
have to fill in a form to tell some grey suit in a far too plush
office why. In other words, fuck your medical needs, they need to get
you out the door as sharp as they can.

Ah with you now. Yeah you could be right.

Post by steve auvache

Post by Krusty
Incidentally they tried to book me in for physio, but I had the
following week off work & didn't know if I'd be around so couldn't
commit to an appointment date.

You refused the treatment offered and you still want to make a claim?
Good luck.

Treatment which the specialist says may well have caused a far more
severe injury. Maybe I should've gone, that would've been worth 50k
easy.

[Pete Fisher]

Post by Krusty

Post by steve auvache
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:12:12 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty
Which is why they do triage. They see you in order of severity
based on the triage nurse's assessment, not order of arrival. I
wasn't getting shouty or anything, I just sat there quietly for 2.5
hours, watching others who arrived after me get seen before me,
knowing they'd been assessed as more urgent. I've got no problem
with that at all.

Well you have. It is (probably) precisely those circumstances that
started you on the path which led you to where you are today.
You weren't going to die so you get pushed down the queue and there
eventually comes a time when the computer starts flashing telling them
that unless they get you out of there in under 27.2 minutes they will
have to fill in a form to tell some grey suit in a far too plush
office why. In other words, fuck your medical needs, they need to get
you out the door as sharp as they can.

Ah with you now. Yeah you could be right.

Post by steve auvache

Post by Krusty
Incidentally they tried to book me in for physio, but I had the
following week off work & didn't know if I'd be around so couldn't
commit to an appointment date.

You refused the treatment offered and you still want to make a claim?
Good luck.

Treatment which the specialist says may well have caused a far more
severe injury. Maybe I should've gone, that would've been worth 50k
easy.

IME the first thing a physio does on a first appointment is to take a
very thorough history and do a full examination - a bit like your
sporting injuries specialist.

It seems to me that it all comes down to whether on the balance of
probabilities >50% of A&E doctors would have correctly diagnosed you
immediately given the time they had at their disposal, however, I would
have thought that these days they would have played safe and at least
told you to RICE it before hobbling off to an early physio *assessment*.
Which is what they did with SWMBO after her skiing induced twisted knee.
She is now going to get her knee poked about inside after having a scan
and seeing an NHS consultant, eventually, though they did try the "what
do you expect at your age" line.

[boots]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:02:38 +0100 in uk.rec.motorcycles, Pete Fisher

Post by Pete Fisher
IME the first thing a physio does on a first appointment is to take a
very thorough history and do a full examination - a bit like your
sporting injuries specialist.

Yup, my physio ended up writing to my GP to request that he refer me
to a knee specialist. They can't actually refer a patient themselves
even though it would appear in my case they had more of a clue of the
damage than the Doctors.

[Colin Irvine]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:02:38 +0100, Pete Fisher

Post by Pete Fisher
IME the first thing a physio does on a first appointment is to take a
very thorough history and do a full examination - a bit like your
sporting injuries specialist.
It seems to me that it all comes down to whether on the balance of
probabilities >50% of A&E doctors would have correctly diagnosed you
immediately given the time they had at their disposal

No it doesn't.

By your reasoning if 60% of doctors would have got it right the other
40% would have been negligent. They wouldn't - they'd have been wrong.

[Pete Fisher]

Post by Colin Irvine
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:02:38 +0100, Pete Fisher

Post by Pete Fisher
IME the first thing a physio does on a first appointment is to take a
very thorough history and do a full examination - a bit like your
sporting injuries specialist.
It seems to me that it all comes down to whether on the balance of
probabilities >50% of A&E doctors would have correctly diagnosed you
immediately given the time they had at their disposal

No it doesn't.
By your reasoning if 60% of doctors would have got it right the other
40% would have been negligent. They wouldn't - they'd have been wrong.

OK, strike out the 'all'. Misdiagnosis does not always equate to
negligence. Being a complete medical layman I bow to your greater
knowledge, but I would have thought misdiagnosis (in this case allegedly
repeated) could be an element in possibly showing negligence and the
precautionary principle should have applied if there was doubt. However,
as I said, IMO referring Krusty for a physio assessment means there
wasn't negligence.

Goes the Bolam test not apply?

"If a doctor reaches the standard of a responsible body of medical
opinion, he is not negligent"

Does a responsible body of medical opinion usually get it wrong half the
time?

I'll answer that one for you - it depends on how 'easy' it is to
diagnose Krusty's particular condition. It may well be that on the
balance of probabilities most run of the mill A&E doctors wouldn't have
come to a correct diagnosis in these specific circumstances.

It would be interesting to hear the view of orthopaedic specialists and
lawyers specialising in medical negligence cases, though I doubt even
UKRM has any of those lurking.

I can see that there could be an argument similar to an Ombudsman
maladministration investigation. Making a wrong (certainly so far as the
complainant is concerned) decision is not maladministration so long as
the proper investigations and procedures were carried out in making it.
So long as it isn't 'perverse'.

Of course to add to the confusion apparently some 'experts' say ligament
injuries should be receive the M.E.A.T. protocol. So you pays your money
and takes your choice!

[Colin Irvine]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 16:14:54 +0100, Pete Fisher

Post by Pete Fisher

Post by Colin Irvine
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:02:38 +0100, Pete Fisher

Post by Pete Fisher
It seems to me that it all comes down to whether on the balance of
probabilities >50% of A&E doctors would have correctly diagnosed you
immediately given the time they had at their disposal

No it doesn't.
By your reasoning if 60% of doctors would have got it right the other
40% would have been negligent. They wouldn't - they'd have been wrong.

OK, strike out the 'all'. Misdiagnosis does not always equate to
negligence. Being a complete medical layman I bow to your greater
knowledge, but I would have thought misdiagnosis (in this case allegedly
repeated) could be an element in possibly showing negligence and the
precautionary principle should have applied if there was doubt

Not necessarily. All tests, second opinions etc cost money, and for
some years now junior doctors have been encouraged not to request
either simply because they're not completely sure of their diagnosis.
And TBH it really is a complete waste of time surmising about Krusty's
case or the lack of it, given how few facts of the matter anyone has.

What I will opine, as so many times in the past, is that the
government should completely disassociate compensation from any aspect
of blame. Doctors have to be encouraged to admit to their mistakes,
and suing the arse of them for doing so is completely
counter-productive.

[Hog]

Post by Colin Irvine
Not necessarily. All tests, second opinions etc cost money, and for
some years now junior doctors have been encouraged not to request
either simply because they're not completely sure of their diagnosis.
And TBH it really is a complete waste of time surmising about Krusty's
case or the lack of it, given how few facts of the matter anyone has.
What I will opine, as so many times in the past, is that the
government should completely disassociate compensation from any aspect
of blame. Doctors have to be encouraged to admit to their mistakes,
and suing the arse of them for doing so is completely
counter-productive.

Yes and people using NHS services should do so on the basis of a compact
that mistakes will be taken seriously, staff dealt with appropriately,
remedial and long term care/assistance/subsidy will be available. Lotto wins
for yourself and family will not.

The worst of it is when a family (non dependents) sue for cash when a
relative dies due to negligence. WTF?

[Colin Irvine]

Post by Hog

Post by Colin Irvine
Not necessarily. All tests, second opinions etc cost money, and for
some years now junior doctors have been encouraged not to request
either simply because they're not completely sure of their diagnosis.
And TBH it really is a complete waste of time surmising about Krusty's
case or the lack of it, given how few facts of the matter anyone has.
What I will opine, as so many times in the past, is that the
government should completely disassociate compensation from any aspect
of blame. Doctors have to be encouraged to admit to their mistakes,
and suing the arse of them for doing so is completely
counter-productive.

Yes and people using NHS services should do so on the basis of a compact
that mistakes will be taken seriously, staff dealt with appropriately,
remedial and long term care/assistance/subsidy will be available. Lotto wins
for yourself and family will not.
The worst of it is when a family (non dependents) sue for cash when a
relative dies due to negligence. WTF?

FFS stop being so reasonable.

[Hog]

Post by Colin Irvine

Post by Hog

Post by Colin Irvine
Not necessarily. All tests, second opinions etc cost money, and for
some years now junior doctors have been encouraged not to request
either simply because they're not completely sure of their
diagnosis. And TBH it really is a complete waste of time surmising
about Krusty's case or the lack of it, given how few facts of the
matter anyone has.
What I will opine, as so many times in the past, is that the
government should completely disassociate compensation from any
aspect of blame. Doctors have to be encouraged to admit to their
mistakes, and suing the arse of them for doing so is completely
counter-productive.

Yes and people using NHS services should do so on the basis of a
compact that mistakes will be taken seriously, staff dealt with
appropriately, remedial and long term care/assistance/subsidy will
be available. Lotto wins for yourself and family will not.
The worst of it is when a family (non dependents) sue for cash when a
relative dies due to negligence. WTF?

FFS stop being so reasonable.

Non dependent families who try to sue the NHS should be culled for donor
parts

[Colin Irvine]

Post by Hog

Post by Colin Irvine

Post by Hog

Post by Colin Irvine
Not necessarily. All tests, second opinions etc cost money, and for
some years now junior doctors have been encouraged not to request
either simply because they're not completely sure of their
diagnosis. And TBH it really is a complete waste of time surmising
about Krusty's case or the lack of it, given how few facts of the
matter anyone has.
What I will opine, as so many times in the past, is that the
government should completely disassociate compensation from any
aspect of blame. Doctors have to be encouraged to admit to their
mistakes, and suing the arse of them for doing so is completely
counter-productive.

Yes and people using NHS services should do so on the basis of a
compact that mistakes will be taken seriously, staff dealt with
appropriately, remedial and long term care/assistance/subsidy will
be available. Lotto wins for yourself and family will not.
The worst of it is when a family (non dependents) sue for cash when a
relative dies due to negligence. WTF?

FFS stop being so reasonable.

Non dependent families who try to sue the NHS should be culled for donor
parts

With the culling contract going out to tender, natch.

[Pete Fisher]

Post by Colin Irvine
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 16:14:54 +0100, Pete Fisher

Post by Pete Fisher

Post by Colin Irvine
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:02:38 +0100, Pete Fisher

Post by Pete Fisher
It seems to me that it all comes down to whether on the balance of
probabilities >50% of A&E doctors would have correctly diagnosed you
immediately given the time they had at their disposal

No it doesn't.
By your reasoning if 60% of doctors would have got it right the other
40% would have been negligent. They wouldn't - they'd have been wrong.

OK, strike out the 'all'. Misdiagnosis does not always equate to
negligence. Being a complete medical layman I bow to your greater
knowledge, but I would have thought misdiagnosis (in this case allegedly
repeated) could be an element in possibly showing negligence and the
precautionary principle should have applied if there was doubt

Not necessarily. All tests, second opinions etc cost money, and for
some years now junior doctors have been encouraged not to request
either simply because they're not completely sure of their diagnosis.
And TBH it really is a complete waste of time surmising about Krusty's
case or the lack of it, given how few facts of the matter anyone has.

Fair comment, though I really meant precautionary in terms of not just
advising Krusty to carry on as normal[1] pending the physiotherapy that
had been offered.

Post by Colin Irvine
What I will opine, as so many times in the past, is that the
government should completely disassociate compensation from any aspect
of blame. Doctors have to be encouraged to admit to their mistakes,
and suing the arse of them for doing so is completely
counter-productive.

I wouldn't disagree with that, assuming the necessary lessons, if any,
are learned from an investigation in to how the mistake came to be made,
and are then acted upon.

[1] Though I'm not sure Krusty's antics on water would be considered
normal by the man on the Clapham omnibus standards.

[Krusty]

Post by Pete Fisher
IME the first thing a physio does on a first appointment is to take a
very thorough history and do a full examination - a bit like your
sporting injuries specialist.

It'll be interesting to see what they say when I see them. I presume
they'll have access to the specialist's notes.

Post by Pete Fisher
It seems to me that it all comes down to whether on the balance of
probabilities >50% of A&E doctors would have correctly diagnosed you
immediately given the time they had at their disposal, however, I
would have thought that these days they would have played safe and at
least told you to RICE it before hobbling off to an early physio
assessment.

It's not so much the fact they didn't diagnose it that's pissing me
off, it's that they told me how to treat it without knowing what was
wrong. That seems like a really dumb thing to do.

Post by Pete Fisher
Which is what they did with SWMBO after her skiing
induced twisted knee. She is now going to get her knee poked about
inside after having a scan and seeing an NHS consultant, eventually,
though they did try the "what do you expect at your age" line.

When I first had knee problems around 20 years ago, the GP referred me
for an exploratory op. I got the appointment through for the first
consultant visit, & it was an 8 month wait. So I paid to see a
consultant at Stoke Mandeville privately the following week instead. He
said it was a simple maltracking patella & I didn't need an op. Case
closed. Might be worth considering if Mrs F is fed-up with waiting.

Or for the sake of 115 quid, go & see the bloke I saw last night, it
sounds right up his street.

[Pete Fisher]

Post by Krusty

Post by Pete Fisher
IME the first thing a physio does on a first appointment is to take a
very thorough history and do a full examination - a bit like your
sporting injuries specialist.

It'll be interesting to see what they say when I see them. I presume
they'll have access to the specialist's notes.

Do you?

Post by Krusty

Post by Pete Fisher
It seems to me that it all comes down to whether on the balance of
probabilities >50% of A&E doctors would have correctly diagnosed you
immediately given the time they had at their disposal, however, I
would have thought that these days they would have played safe and at
least told you to RICE it before hobbling off to an early physio
assessment.

It's not so much the fact they didn't diagnose it that's pissing me
off, it's that they told me how to treat it without knowing what was
wrong. That seems like a really dumb thing to do.

Well you could argue that carrying on as normal isn't 'treatment', but
ISWYM.

Post by Krusty

Post by Pete Fisher
Which is what they did with SWMBO after her skiing
induced twisted knee. She is now going to get her knee poked about
inside after having a scan and seeing an NHS consultant, eventually,
though they did try the "what do you expect at your age" line.

When I first had knee problems around 20 years ago, the GP referred me
for an exploratory op. I got the appointment through for the first
consultant visit, & it was an 8 month wait. So I paid to see a
consultant at Stoke Mandeville privately the following week instead. He
said it was a simple maltracking patella & I didn't need an op. Case
closed. Might be worth considering if Mrs F is fed-up with waiting.
Or for the sake of 115 quid, go & see the bloke I saw last night, it
sounds right up his street.

She's already been to a private sports injuries clinic locally. It has
to be said that she has had dodgy knees for ages and it won't be her
first arthroscopy. TBF it isn't too bad now for everyday activities
suitable for a person of her years. She even managed to go on a four day
walking holiday last month, but she would really like to be able to ski
again. Can't see her getting winter sports insurance in the future
without a massive extra premium or exception for a knee 'going' again
though.

[Krusty]

Post by Pete Fisher
She's already been to a private sports injuries clinic locally. It
has to be said that she has had dodgy knees for ages and it won't be
her first arthroscopy. TBF it isn't too bad now for everyday
activities suitable for a person of her years. She even managed to go
on a four day walking holiday last month, but she would really like
to be able to ski again.

Has she got a decent brace? There's no way my knee's going anywhere
other than where it's meant to with the CTi one I've got. Cost 400 quid
but it's solid as hell, waterproof, & you can adjust the max angle
it'll go to.

Post by Pete Fisher
Can't see her getting winter sports
insurance in the future without a massive extra premium or exception
for a knee 'going' again though.

Aye, that's a bummer. Just need to ensure it can't 'go' again.

[Hog]

Post by Krusty
Has she got a decent brace? There's no way my knee's going anywhere
other than where it's meant to with the CTi one I've got. Cost 400
quid but it's solid as hell, waterproof, & you can adjust the max
angle it'll go to.

So you bought this?
http://www.ossurwebshop.co.uk/Knee-Braces/CTiA-OTS-Knee-Brace/prod_45.html

[Krusty]

Post by Krusty
Has she got a decent brace? There's no way my knee's going anywhere
other than where it's meant to with the CTi one I've got. Cost 400
quid but it's solid as hell, waterproof, & you can adjust the max
angle it'll go to.

So you bought this?http://www.ossurwebshop.co.uk/Knee-Braces/CTiA-OTS-Knee-Brace/prod_45...

That's the kiddie. The off-roading crowd rave about CTi braces so I
figured it was worth it.

[Hog]

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
Has she got a decent brace? There's no way my knee's going anywhere
other than where it's meant to with the CTi one I've got. Cost 400
quid but it's solid as hell, waterproof, & you can adjust the max
angle it'll go to.

So you bought
this?http://www.ossurwebshop.co.uk/Knee-Braces/CTiA-OTS-Knee-Brace/prod_45...

That's the kiddie. The off-roading crowd rave about CTi braces so I
figured it was worth it.

So the Doc was only £100 and you bought the brace? don't see the problem.

Do some MX and ski junkies wear them always i.e. before they damage
themselves.

[ogden]

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
Has she got a decent brace? There's no way my knee's going anywhere
other than where it's meant to with the CTi one I've got. Cost 400
quid but it's solid as hell, waterproof, & you can adjust the max
angle it'll go to.

So you bought
this?http://www.ossurwebshop.co.uk/Knee-Braces/CTiA-OTS-Knee-Brace/prod_45...

That's the kiddie. The off-roading crowd rave about CTi braces so I
figured it was worth it.

So the Doc was only £100 and you bought the brace? don't see the problem.
Do some MX and ski junkies wear them always i.e. before they damage
themselves.

When we were talking about doing the Tuareg, I looked at the cost of
getting some knee and elbow braces as part of basic kit. A minor lob on
that day in Wales had me hobbling for a month and I didn't fancy facing
the same thing in the middle of the Maghreb.

[The Older Gentleman]

Post by ogden
A minor lob on
that day in Wales had me hobbling for a month

Oh God.....

[Andy B]

ogden <***@pre.org> wrote:

snip>

Post by ogden
When we were talking about doing the Tuareg, I looked at the cost of
getting some knee and elbow braces as part of basic kit. A minor lob on
that day in Wales had me hobbling for a month and I didn't fancy facing
the same thing in the middle of the Maghreb.

Don't forget that some of us are still actively practicing for the
Tuareg and once we've put that Arctic adventure to bed we're moving the
goalposts back into warmer climes.

[Krusty]

So the Doc was only #100 and you bought the brace?

Yes. Well 115 for the doc.

don't see the problem.

Apparently not.

Do some MX and ski junkies wear them always i.e. before they damage
themselves.

None that I know of. I mean everyone's invincible until they discover
they aren't, right? Plenty carry on wearing them long after they need
to though.

[The Older Gentleman]

Post by Hog
http://www.ossurwebshop.co.uk/Knee-Braces/CTiA-OTS-Knee-Brace/prod_45.html

The Doctor wears something slightly less high-tech when she's skiing, as
she did all her ligaments, in both knees, in one epic crash in 1986.

They certainly seem to do the trick, those gadgets, insofar as she
hasn't damaged them since.

[Krusty]

Post by The Older Gentleman

Post by Hog
http://www.ossurwebshop.co.uk/Knee-Braces/CTiA-OTS-Knee-Brace/prod_4
5.html

The Doctor wears something slightly less high-tech when she's skiing,
as she did all her ligaments, in both knees, in one epic crash in
1986.

Jesus, that must've been one hell of a crash.

Post by The Older Gentleman
They certainly seem to do the trick, those gadgets, insofar as she
hasn't damaged them since.

Oh they definitely do the job. The problem for me was finding one
that's ok with salt water & lets you bend your knee all the way. That
rules out the somewhat cheaper fabric ones unfortunately.

[CT]

Post by Krusty
Oh they definitely do the job. The problem for me was finding one
that's ok with salt water & lets you bend your knee all the way. That
rules out the somewhat cheaper fabric ones unfortunately.

Shouldn't you be resting it, with some light exercise/physio rather
than playing about on a windsurfer?

[Krusty]

Post by CT

Post by Krusty
Oh they definitely do the job. The problem for me was finding one
that's ok with salt water & lets you bend your knee all the way.
That rules out the somewhat cheaper fabric ones unfortunately.

Shouldn't you be resting it, with some light exercise/physio rather
than playing about on a windsurfer?

Yes, which is exactly what I'm doing. I'm banned from windsurfing for
another couple of weeks. Or rather I'm banned from windsurfing if the
wind's strong enough to cause a high-load crash - just tooling around
in light wind's ok as long as I wear the brace.

[CT]

Post by Krusty

Post by CT
Shouldn't you be resting it, with some light exercise/physio rather
than playing about on a windsurfer?

Yes, which is exactly what I'm doing. I'm banned from windsurfing for
another couple of weeks. Or rather I'm banned from windsurfing if the
wind's strong enough to cause a high-load crash - just tooling around
in light wind's ok as long as I wear the brace.

Ah, OK. Carry on then :o)

[Krusty]

Post by CT

Post by Krusty

Post by CT
Shouldn't you be resting it, with some light exercise/physio
rather than playing about on a windsurfer?

Yes, which is exactly what I'm doing. I'm banned from windsurfing
for another couple of weeks. Or rather I'm banned from windsurfing
if the wind's strong enough to cause a high-load crash - just
tooling around in light wind's ok as long as I wear the brace.

Ah, OK. Carry on then :o)

Thanks!

[Hog]

Post by Krusty

Post by CT

Post by Krusty
Oh they definitely do the job. The problem for me was finding one
that's ok with salt water & lets you bend your knee all the way.
That rules out the somewhat cheaper fabric ones unfortunately.

Shouldn't you be resting it, with some light exercise/physio rather
than playing about on a windsurfer?

Yes, which is exactly what I'm doing. I'm banned from windsurfing for
another couple of weeks. Or rather I'm banned from windsurfing if the
wind's strong enough to cause a high-load crash - just tooling around
in light wind's ok as long as I wear the brace.

Isn't that all you can manage anyway?

[Krusty]

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty

Post by CT

Post by Krusty
Oh they definitely do the job. The problem for me was finding
one that's ok with salt water & lets you bend your knee all the
way. That rules out the somewhat cheaper fabric ones
unfortunately.

Shouldn't you be resting it, with some light exercise/physio
rather than playing about on a windsurfer?

Yes, which is exactly what I'm doing. I'm banned from windsurfing
for another couple of weeks. Or rather I'm banned from windsurfing
if the wind's strong enough to cause a high-load crash - just
tooling around in light wind's ok as long as I wear the brace.

Isn't that all you can manage anyway?

I'm not sure if that's a serious question or you're taking the piss.
And if it is serious, I'm not sure if you're referring to my general
ability, or my knackered knee.

[Hog]

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty

Post by CT

Post by Krusty
Oh they definitely do the job. The problem for me was finding
one that's ok with salt water & lets you bend your knee all the
way. That rules out the somewhat cheaper fabric ones
unfortunately.

Shouldn't you be resting it, with some light exercise/physio
rather than playing about on a windsurfer?

Yes, which is exactly what I'm doing. I'm banned from windsurfing
for another couple of weeks. Or rather I'm banned from windsurfing
if the wind's strong enough to cause a high-load crash - just
tooling around in light wind's ok as long as I wear the brace.

Isn't that all you can manage anyway?

I'm not sure if that's a serious question or you're taking the piss.
And if it is serious, I'm not sure if you're referring to my general
ability, or my knackered knee.

It should be taken in whatever way is most demeaning :o)

[Krusty]

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty

Post by CT

Post by Krusty
Oh they definitely do the job. The problem for me was
finding one that's ok with salt water & lets you bend your
knee all the way. That rules out the somewhat cheaper
fabric ones unfortunately.

Shouldn't you be resting it, with some light exercise/physio
rather than playing about on a windsurfer?

Yes, which is exactly what I'm doing. I'm banned from
windsurfing for another couple of weeks. Or rather I'm banned
from windsurfing if the wind's strong enough to cause a
high-load crash - just tooling around in light wind's ok as
long as I wear the brace.

Isn't that all you can manage anyway?

I'm not sure if that's a serious question or you're taking the piss.
And if it is serious, I'm not sure if you're referring to my general
ability, or my knackered knee.

It should be taken in whatever way is most demeaning :o)

In that case,[1] yeah, pretty much. But without bothering to go into
detail, I'm at a stage in the learning process which is quite a big
step to get over if you don't have access to consistent wind & very
flat water. Which is part of the reason why I'm so pissed off about
this knee thing, as the planned holiday that's now gone out the window
would've got me past that stage.

[1] nods to Colin.

[Hog]

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty

Post by CT

Post by Krusty
Oh they definitely do the job. The problem for me was
finding one that's ok with salt water & lets you bend your
knee all the way. That rules out the somewhat cheaper
fabric ones unfortunately.

Shouldn't you be resting it, with some light exercise/physio
rather than playing about on a windsurfer?

Yes, which is exactly what I'm doing. I'm banned from
windsurfing for another couple of weeks. Or rather I'm banned
from windsurfing if the wind's strong enough to cause a
high-load crash - just tooling around in light wind's ok as
long as I wear the brace.

Isn't that all you can manage anyway?

I'm not sure if that's a serious question or you're taking the piss.
And if it is serious, I'm not sure if you're referring to my general
ability, or my knackered knee.

It should be taken in whatever way is most demeaning :o)

In that case,[1] yeah, pretty much. But without bothering to go into
detail, I'm at a stage in the learning process which is quite a big
step to get over if you don't have access to consistent wind & very
flat water. Which is part of the reason why I'm so pissed off about
this knee thing, as the planned holiday that's now gone out the window
would've got me past that stage.
[1] nods to Colin.

Knowing I live in a glass house you are at the stage that I never got passed
and eventually gave up on.

[Hog]

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty

Post by CT

Post by Krusty
Oh they definitely do the job. The problem for me was
finding one that's ok with salt water & lets you bend your
knee all the way. That rules out the somewhat cheaper
fabric ones unfortunately.

Shouldn't you be resting it, with some light exercise/physio
rather than playing about on a windsurfer?

Yes, which is exactly what I'm doing. I'm banned from
windsurfing for another couple of weeks. Or rather I'm banned
from windsurfing if the wind's strong enough to cause a
high-load crash - just tooling around in light wind's ok as
long as I wear the brace.

Isn't that all you can manage anyway?

I'm not sure if that's a serious question or you're taking the
piss. And if it is serious, I'm not sure if you're referring to my
general ability, or my knackered knee.

It should be taken in whatever way is most demeaning :o)

In that case,[1] yeah, pretty much. But without bothering to go into
detail, I'm at a stage in the learning process which is quite a big
step to get over if you don't have access to consistent wind & very
flat water. Which is part of the reason why I'm so pissed off about
this knee thing, as the planned holiday that's now gone out the
window would've got me past that stage.
[1] nods to Colin.

Knowing I live in a glass house you are at the stage that I never got
passed and eventually gave up on.

<curses>
past

[wessie]

Post by Krusty
In that case,[1] yeah, pretty much. But without bothering to go into
detail, I'm at a stage in the learning process which is quite a big
step to get over if you don't have access to consistent wind & very
flat water. Which is part of the reason why I'm so pissed off about
this knee thing, as the planned holiday that's now gone out the window
would've got me past that stage.

Sounds like you need to go to Lake Garda - seemed to be a very consistent,
fucking fast wind most afternoons on fairly flat water at the narrow end of
the lake. Not that I tried it but it is an amusing spectator sport from the
shore at Torbole or Limone.
http://www.lake-garda-revealed.com/lake-garda-wind-maps.html - up to 24
knots. Morning too by the seems of it, but I wouldn't see those.

[Krusty]

Post by wessie

Post by Krusty
In that case,[1] yeah, pretty much. But without bothering to go into
detail, I'm at a stage in the learning process which is quite a big
step to get over if you don't have access to consistent wind & very
flat water. Which is part of the reason why I'm so pissed off about
this knee thing, as the planned holiday that's now gone out the
window would've got me past that stage.

Sounds like you need to go to Lake Garda - seemed to be a very
consistent, fucking fast wind most afternoons on fairly flat water at
the narrow end of the lake. Not that I tried it but it is an amusing
spectator sport from the shore at Torbole or Limone.
http://www.lake-garda-revealed.com/lake-garda-wind-maps.html - up to
24 knots. Morning too by the seems of it, but I wouldn't see those.

Garda's too choppy. It may not look like it from the edge, but if
you're doing say 20-25 knots on a 100+ litre board[1] you'll be
bouncing around all over the place & struggle to control it. So you
need a smaller, narrower board that carves through the chop rather than
bounces off it.

But the trouble with small boards is they're less stable, so you fall
in a lot when turning. And being small, they haven't got enough
buoyancy to let you stand on them & pull the sail out the water to get
going again.

So you have to do a 'waterstart' - lay in the water on your back
holding the sail above you, stick your heal on the board, use that foot
to pull the board towards your bum (hence needing a brace that lets you
bend your leg fully) & let the wind pull you up. That's a lot more
difficult than it sounds, & can take months to nail.

I can do them most of the time now, but I still struggle with the
initial bit of unsticking the sail from the water. Easy in water up to
neck deep, bloody difficult if you can't get a foot on the ground.

The other problem with choppy water is you need to get hooked into the
harness & get your feet in the footstraps to control the board, &
again, that's really difficult to learn. The straps are at the back of
the board, so if you move back there when you're not going fast enough,
the tail just sinks &/or you turn into the wind. The smaller the board,
the harder it is to do.

So as an 'improver' you ideally need very flat water to improve
quickly, coupled with say a steady force 4 wind, & that basically means
the Red Sea.

P.S. If I did cart a board down to Italy, it would be to Trasimeno as
that's where my parents live.

[1] A windsurf board's buoyancy is stated as volume in litres, & one
litre will support approx. one kilo when static. A good 80Kg sailor
might use something like a 65 litre board in strong wind, so it will
sink when they're not moving fast enough[2].

[2] I've got a 131 litre board for windy use, & a 160 litre for light
wind cruising. Next step will be around 100-110 litre, then probably a
70-80ish if & when I'm good enough.

[wessie]

"Krusty" <***@nowhere.invalid> wrote in news:j0rmuv$ilq$***@dont-
email.me:

<snip Lake Garda windsurfing>

Well, the people I watch make it look so easy. I was quite gobsmacked to
see one person windsurf all the way across from Malcesine to Limone before
turning north into the red zone on the link I posted.

[wessie]

Post by Krusty
Incidentally they tried to book me in for physio, but I had the
following week off work & didn't know if I'd be around so couldn't
commit to an appointment date. If I had gone for physio, & they didn't
spot what the problem was, there's a pretty good chance the grade 2
tear would've become a grade 3 (full) tear, which would need an
operation to fix. I find that pretty scary.

I've been through this, although the advice I was given by the chap in A&E
was to rest it and come back to the "fracture clinic"[1] the following day.

Orthopod referred me on to the physio dept. where I was given a full
assessment *before* any treatment was started. I went on to have physio
once a week, further visits to the ortho consultant & an MRI scan and it
was 8 months before I felt the knee was up to riding a bike again.

As Steve has said and Pete has implied, by not going for the physio
assessment you will have a weak case IMV. Yes, the advice to use the knee
as normal was wrong but I had similar said to me with the caveat that if it
hurts then stop. The physio's advice was to take as little analgesia as
possible so that the body's natural warning system can let you know when to
stop.



[1] orthopaedic clinic would be more accurate as at leat half of the people
did not have fractures.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Krusty
It's disappointing, but I don't really expect GPs to be able to keep up
to date with such things. They'd have to spend all day reading studies
rather than treating people to do that.

Exactly. I use Google as my GP and then go straight to the pharmacy and
demand drugs.

[Nige]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Krusty

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Krusty
I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a
correct diagnosis of my knee injury

How do you know that? Is it what you thought it was?

Yes. Lots of googling made me suspect it was the MCL

Heh. I now know that the pains in my legs were a warning of the upcoming
stroke, although the medics keep denying it. All the medical profession deny
any connection, but Google searches *assure* me of the truth.

What sort of pain?

Any links?

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Nige

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Krusty

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Krusty
I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a
correct diagnosis of my knee injury

How do you know that? Is it what you thought it was?

Yes. Lots of googling made me suspect it was the MCL

Heh. I now know that the pains in my legs were a warning of the upcoming
stroke, although the medics keep denying it. All the medical profession deny
any connection, but Google searches *assure* me of the truth.

What sort of pain?

Hurty pain. Mostly stabbing "pinchazos". And "hormigueos" - pins and
needles. Cramps as well.

Post by Nige
Any links?

How good's your Spanish?

[YTC#1]

Post by Krusty
I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a correct
diagnosis of my knee injury, which the 2 NHS doctors I'd seen previously
failed to provide. It's a grade 2 MCL (Medial Collateral Ligament) tear.
He reckons it'll take another 3 months or so to fully heal, & need lots of
physio.

I had one of those, it needed an op.

And you must rememeber to do the physio inbetween sessions.

And swim a lot

And cycle a lot

Post by Krusty
The A&E doctor I saw when it happened should've put a brace on it for 3
weeks & told me to rest it, but instead he just told me to carry on using

Or so the latest geezer says.

Post by Krusty
it as normal, hence the total recovery time is 5 months rather than the
6-8 weeks it would've been. Needless to say that's pissed me off. A lot.

I'd disagree with the recovery time, just to piss you off more.

Post by Krusty
I did wonder at the time how a doctor could tell you what to do with an
injury when they couldn't diagnosis it (he said "it's a bit of a

It it may depend on what you told them.

You were at libety to see your own GP and ask for an MRI scan.

Post by Krusty
mystery"), but figured he knew what he was talking about. It was after
all a Sunday afternoon, when A&E is packed with sports injuries, so
you'd think the doctors working then would have a clue about such
things. And knee ligament tears are *very* common amongst the Sunday
morning sporting crowd.

Are they ? It took me over 30 years of playing rugby and football to do
mine, and I would not say that it was a common injury amongst team mates.

A few bruises and cuts was common.

Post by Krusty
I'm now seriously considering talking to a solicitor about it. It's
caused me a few months of needless pain, forced me to cancel my holiday,

And take more money out of the system, meaning less for others.

Take it on the chin and get on with life.

[Krusty]

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a
correct diagnosis of my knee injury, which the 2 NHS doctors I'd
seen previously failed to provide. It's a grade 2 MCL (Medial
Collateral Ligament) tear. He reckons it'll take another 3 months
or so to fully heal, & need lots of physio.

I had one of those, it needed an op.

For a grade 2? That would be unusual aiui, unless you were a sports pro.

Post by YTC#1
And you must rememeber to do the physio inbetween sessions.
And swim a lot
And cycle a lot

Aye, I'll be doing that.

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
The A&E doctor I saw when it happened should've put a brace on it
for 3 weeks & told me to rest it, but instead he just told me to
carry on using

Or so the latest geezer says.

It's his speciality, & he's one of the top bods in the country at it.
That's why I paid a wedge of cash to see him.

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
it as normal, hence the total recovery time is 5 months rather than
the 6-8 weeks it would've been. Needless to say that's pissed me
off. A lot.

I'd disagree with the recovery time, just to piss you off more.

Thanks for that.

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
I did wonder at the time how a doctor could tell you what to do
with an injury when they couldn't diagnosis it (he said "it's a bit
of a

It it may depend on what you told them.

Nah. I told him it hurt like fuck when he held my thigh & bent the
bottom half of my leg out to the side. With hindsight (& knowledge from
googling), it's obvious.

Post by YTC#1
You were at libety to see your own GP and ask for an MRI scan.

I did see a locum at my GP's a few weeks later, & he also got the
diagnosis wrong, but did at least say I should've been resting it from
day one.

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
mystery"), but figured he knew what he was talking about. It was
after all a Sunday afternoon, when A&E is packed with sports
injuries, so you'd think the doctors working then would have a clue
about such things. And knee ligament tears are very common amongst
the Sunday morning sporting crowd.

Are they ?

Apparently so, usually caused by getting a whack in the outside of the
knee when your studs are dug in.

Post by YTC#1
It took me over 30 years of playing rugby and football to
do mine, and I would not say that it was a common injury amongst team
mates.
A few bruises and cuts was common.

Common amongst serious injuries requiring a trip to A&E.

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
I'm now seriously considering talking to a solicitor about it. It's
caused me a few months of needless pain, forced me to cancel my holiday,

And take more money out of the system, meaning less for others.

Or ensure a junior doctor gets the supervision he obviously needs,
stopping him from making the same mistake with others. Besides it's not
like I'm talking about a spurious 'someone must be blamed' case; he
*is* to blame, & his negligence has caused me pain & cost me money.

Post by YTC#1
Take it on the chin and get on with life.

Unfortunately I can't get on with life for a few months. At least not
as I'd like to.

[CT]

Post by Krusty
Or ensure a junior doctor gets the supervision he obviously needs,
stopping him from making the same mistake with others. Besides it's
not like I'm talking about a spurious 'someone must be blamed' case;
he is to blame, & his negligence has caused me pain & cost me money.

Krusty wrote:

"Thanks to the useless fuckwit cunting 'doctor' I saw in A&E when I
screwed my knee up a few weeks ago, I've now been told to rest it for
8 weeks. That ain't gonna happen..."

[Krusty]

Post by CT

Post by Krusty
Or ensure a junior doctor gets the supervision he obviously needs,
stopping him from making the same mistake with others. Besides it's
not like I'm talking about a spurious 'someone must be blamed' case;
he is to blame, & his negligence has caused me pain & cost me money.

"Thanks to the useless fuckwit cunting 'doctor' I saw in A&E when I
screwed my knee up a few weeks ago, I've now been told to rest it for
8 weeks. That ain't gonna happen..."

Yes. The A&E doc told me to carry on using it as normal, which lead to
a further tear. It was the GP's locum I saw a few weeks later that told
me to rest it.

[Colin Irvine]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 10:43:42 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
I'm now seriously considering talking to a solicitor about it. It's
caused me a few months of needless pain, forced me to cancel my holiday,

And take more money out of the system, meaning less for others.

Or ensure a junior doctor gets the supervision he obviously needs,
stopping him from making the same mistake with others. Besides it's not
like I'm talking about a spurious 'someone must be blamed' case; he
*is* to blame, & his negligence has caused me pain & cost me money.

You can complain to the hospital and try to get it to admit it made a
mistake, in which case the hospital may admit that and do something
about it.

Or you can threaten to sue, in which case the hospital will probably
defend itself, admit nothing and change nothing.

You're unlikely to be able to do both. And to get any money you'll
either have to prove that the doctor was negligent, rather than simply
mistaken, or persuade the hospital to settle out of court on that
basis.

[Hog]

Post by Colin Irvine
You're unlikely to be able to do both. And to get any money you'll
either have to prove that the doctor was negligent, rather than simply
mistaken, or persuade the hospital to settle out of court on that
basis.

At the risk of shocking you I don't think the NHS should generally pay cash
compensation. Provide/fund whatever remedial care may be required, yes.

[Colin Irvine]

Post by Hog

Post by Colin Irvine
You're unlikely to be able to do both. And to get any money you'll
either have to prove that the doctor was negligent, rather than simply
mistaken, or persuade the hospital to settle out of court on that
basis.

At the risk of shocking you I don't think the NHS should generally pay cash
compensation. Provide/fund whatever remedial care may be required, yes.

<g> That's two (at least) reasonable posts you've made in this thread.
Sorry, but I am shocked.

I've argued for some years there should be a separately funded
no-blame compensation scheme.

[Krusty]

Post by Hog

Post by Colin Irvine
You're unlikely to be able to do both. And to get any money you'll
either have to prove that the doctor was negligent, rather than
simply mistaken, or persuade the hospital to settle out of court on
that basis.

At the risk of shocking you I don't think the NHS should generally
pay cash compensation. Provide/fund whatever remedial care may be
required, yes.

I agree they shouldn't pay punitive compensation, some of the amounts
are just insane. But I do think they should cover costs you incur as a
result of their mistakes (which financially is all I'd want).

[steve auvache]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:44:21 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Colin Irvine
You're unlikely to be able to do both. And to get any money you'll
either have to prove that the doctor was negligent, rather than
simply mistaken, or persuade the hospital to settle out of court on
that basis.

At the risk of shocking you I don't think the NHS should generally
pay cash compensation. Provide/fund whatever remedial care may be
required, yes.

I agree they shouldn't pay punitive compensation, some of the amounts
are just insane. But I do think they should cover costs you incur as a
result of their mistakes (which financially is all I'd want).

You didn't want fuck all until you paid someone to tell you what you
wanted to hear.

[Krusty]

Post by steve auvache
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:44:21 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Colin Irvine
You're unlikely to be able to do both. And to get any money

you'll >> > either have to prove that the doctor was negligent,
rather than >> > simply mistaken, or persuade the hospital to settle
out of court on >> > that basis.

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog
At the risk of shocking you I don't think the NHS should generally
pay cash compensation. Provide/fund whatever remedial care may be
required, yes.

I agree they shouldn't pay punitive compensation, some of the
amounts are just insane. But I do think they should cover costs you
incur as a result of their mistakes (which financially is all I'd
want).

You didn't want fuck all until you paid someone to tell you what you
wanted to hear.

I paid someone to identify what grade of tear it was & give me a
treatment plan. I shouldn't have had to do that, it's not like we're
talking about some exotic illness.

[steve auvache]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 12:04:15 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty
I paid someone to identify what grade of tear it was & give me a
treatment plan. I shouldn't have had to do that, it's not like we're
talking about some exotic illness.

Indeed but this discussion is not about the merits of private versus state
funded health care it is about whether they did it right. Which is just
down to the luck of the draw for most of us.[1] And...

.. at the end of the day when all is said and done it is just a hurty knee
and not terminal cancer. I do think you need to get a bit of perspective
about this but I am just a senile old cunt so feel free to ignore me and
my views on the matter entirely.



[1] If I go round and see my quack and tell him my blood smells funny then
as I am talking to one of the senior blood blokes in the area with a
consultancy contract in the local hospital for it and everything so I
expect to get the right diagnosis the first time. OTOH if it is friday and
I have to see the heir to his business empire she just laughs unless I can
make out it is some sort of wimmin's problem I am suffering from. Same
name, same surgery and two entirely differing standards of treatment
available to me depending entirely on the fact that I have bollox (and I
have mentioned the matter to her which I am sure she didn't like but if
you discriminate against me expect it to get noisy, which she didn't and
was a bit surprised about). Still give her her due she does take care not
to hurt when I get my annual flu jab from her, very sensitive about that
she is which frankly her father isn't.

[Andy B]

Post by Krusty

Post by steve auvache
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:44:21 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Colin Irvine
You're unlikely to be able to do both. And to get any money

you'll >> > either have to prove that the doctor was negligent,
rather than >> > simply mistaken, or persuade the hospital to settle
out of court on >> > that basis.

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog
At the risk of shocking you I don't think the NHS should generally
pay cash compensation. Provide/fund whatever remedial care may be
required, yes.

I agree they shouldn't pay punitive compensation, some of the
amounts are just insane. But I do think they should cover costs you
incur as a result of their mistakes (which financially is all I'd
want).

You didn't want fuck all until you paid someone to tell you what you
wanted to hear.

I paid someone to identify what grade of tear it was & give me a
treatment plan. I shouldn't have had to do that, it's not like we're
talking about some exotic illness.

I've forgotten now but what caused the original injury? Obviously it
wasn't because of you doing something stupid...

[Krusty]

Post by Andy B
I've forgotten now but what caused the original injury? Obviously it
wasn't because of you doing something stupid...

<Scouts thread merge>

I was windsurfing back & forth to Brownsea Island, so no, nothing
stupid. Dunno what caused it exactly as I didn't notice it hurting
until I was wandering back to shore after the tide went out.

[Krusty]

Post by Colin Irvine
On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 10:43:42 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
I'm now seriously considering talking to a solicitor about it.

It's >> > caused me a few months of needless pain, forced me to
cancel my >> > holiday,

Post by Krusty

Post by YTC#1
And take more money out of the system, meaning less for others.

Or ensure a junior doctor gets the supervision he obviously needs,
stopping him from making the same mistake with others. Besides it's
not like I'm talking about a spurious 'someone must be blamed'
case; he *is* to blame, & his negligence has caused me pain & cost
me money.

You can complain to the hospital and try to get it to admit it made a
mistake, in which case the hospital may admit that and do something
about it.
Or you can threaten to sue, in which case the hospital will probably
defend itself, admit nothing and change nothing.

Maybe. I need to see the records & do a lot of googling first anyway.
I'm certainly not thinking of trying to sue them for thousands if
that's what people think. I'll try to get an appointment with one of
the management bods when I go for physio.

[steve auvache]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 11:30:53 +0000 (UTC), "Krusty"

Post by Krusty
Maybe. I need to see the records & do a lot of googling first anyway.
I'm certainly not thinking of trying to sue them for thousands if
that's what people think. I'll try to get an appointment with one of
the management bods when I go for physio.

Good luck with it but just remember; if you are successful and a child or
a nun dies because the right doctor or drug was not available to them
because all the money had been squandered on grey suited leeches defending
themselves from greedy self seeking opportunists with a hurty toe, it is
all your fault.

[YTC#1]

Post by Krusty

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a
correct diagnosis of my knee injury, which the 2 NHS doctors I'd seen
previously failed to provide. It's a grade 2 MCL (Medial Collateral
Ligament) tear. He reckons it'll take another 3 months or so to fully
heal, & need lots of physio.

I had one of those, it needed an op.

For a grade 2? That would be unusual aiui, unless you were a sports pro.

Fuck nose, it hurt, so it got operated on.

Post by Krusty

Post by YTC#1
And you must rememeber to do the physio inbetween sessions.
And swim a lot
And cycle a lot

Aye, I'll be doing that.

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
The A&E doctor I saw when it happened should've put a brace on it for
3 weeks & told me to rest it, but instead he just told me to carry on
using

Or so the latest geezer says.

It's his speciality, & he's one of the top bods in the country at it.
That's why I paid a wedge of cash to see him.

I bet he was trained in the NHS :-)

Post by Krusty

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
it as normal, hence the total recovery time is 5 months rather than
the 6-8 weeks it would've been. Needless to say that's pissed me off.
A lot.

I'd disagree with the recovery time, just to piss you off more.

Thanks for that.

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
I did wonder at the time how a doctor could tell you what to do with
an injury when they couldn't diagnosis it (he said "it's a bit of a

It it may depend on what you told them.

Nah. I told him it hurt like fuck when he held my thigh & bent the bottom
half of my leg out to the side. With hindsight (& knowledge from
googling), it's obvious.

Post by YTC#1
You were at libety to see your own GP and ask for an MRI scan.

I did see a locum at my GP's a few weeks later, & he also got the
diagnosis wrong, but did at least say I should've been resting it from day
one.

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
mystery"), but figured he knew what he was talking about. It was after
all a Sunday afternoon, when A&E is packed with sports injuries, so
you'd think the doctors working then would have a clue about such
things. And knee ligament tears are very common amongst the Sunday
morning sporting crowd.

Are they ?

Apparently so, usually caused by getting a whack in the outside of the
knee when your studs are dug in.

Mine was a tackle... I remember it still, the bright whit elight, the
flash of pain, the "oh fuck that hurt" thought, the rolling off the pitch
'cos when I stood up I fell over again (and a maul was heading my way)

Post by Krusty

Post by YTC#1
It took me over 30 years of playing rugby and football to do mine, and
I would not say that it was a common injury amongst team mates.
A few bruises and cuts was common.

Common amongst serious injuries requiring a trip to A&E.

Post by YTC#1

Post by Krusty
I'm now seriously considering talking to a solicitor about it. It's
caused me a few months of needless pain, forced me to cancel my holiday,

And take more money out of the system, meaning less for others.

Or ensure a junior doctor gets the supervision he obviously needs,
stopping him from making the same mistake with others. Besides it's not
like I'm talking about a spurious 'someone must be blamed' case; he *is*
to blame, & his negligence has caused me pain & cost me money.

Don't go the sue option, it is all American and all wrong. Just have them
review the procedure and get an apology.

Post by Krusty

Post by YTC#1
Take it on the chin and get on with life.

Unfortunately I can't get on with life for a few months. At least not as
I'd like to.

It may take longer than a few months if you like walking up mountains :-)

[Pip Luscher]

Post by YTC#1
It it may depend on what you told them.

Yes, I had a possible mis-diagnosis from a sports physio because I was
adamant that a pain did not extend below my left knee; after a couple
of weeks and the pain subsided, I discovered that this was because my
left shin was partly numb and there had bee so much referred pain that
it was very difficult to identify exactly where the real pain was
coming from.

[Thomas]

Post by Pip Luscher

Post by YTC#1
It it may depend on what you told them.

Yes, I had a possible mis-diagnosis from a sports physio because I was
adamant that a pain did not extend below my left knee; after a couple
of weeks and the pain subsided, I discovered that this was because my
left shin was partly numb and there had bee so much referred pain that
it was very difficult to identify exactly where the real pain was
coming from.

Amen. You sit in the doctor's office and he quizzes you about what's
going on, and it's "yes, no, umm lemme think, hell, I don't know." And
you feel like an idiot because it's your body, but you've been in pain
and can't remember if the pain was here or there and if it was a
throbbing or stabbing pain. Hell, I'm in pain, dammit, just fix it.

[Pip Luscher]

Post by Thomas
Hell, I'm in pain, dammit, just fix it.

Heh. Yes: "You're the medical man: why are you asking me?"

[Hog]

Post by Krusty
I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a
correct diagnosis of my knee injury, which the 2 NHS doctors I'd seen
previously failed to provide. It's a grade 2 MCL (Medial Collateral
Ligament) tear. He reckons it'll take another 3 months or so to fully
heal, & need lots of physio.

I'm sure it was suggested in here that was the correct course of action.
It's simple, really good guys in that sort of field don't need to work for
the NHS (although they may do a bit), so if you want the top dogs you need
to a) research and find them b) pay their chosen rate
It isn't a shortcoming of the NHS

Post by Krusty
The A&E doctor I saw when it happened should've put a brace on it for
3 weeks & told me to rest it, but instead he just told me to carry on
using it as normal, hence the total recovery time is 5 months rather
than the 6-8 weeks it would've been. Needless to say that's pissed me
off. A lot.

A&E is just what is says on the tin. They patch you up and parcel you on.
They are short staffed, over worked and swamped by time wasting cunts. Don't
run them down.

[Krusty]

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
The A&E doctor I saw when it happened should've put a brace on it
for 3 weeks & told me to rest it, but instead he just told me to
carry on using it as normal, hence the total recovery time is 5
months rather than the 6-8 weeks it would've been. Needless to say
that's pissed me off. A lot.

A&E is just what is says on the tin. They patch you up and parcel you on.

Except they didn't patch me up, they gave the wrong diagnosis & told me
to do things that made it worse. Which is pretty much the definition of
clinical negligence surely?

Post by Hog
They are short staffed, over worked and swamped by time wasting
cunts.

Aren't we all.

[Jim]

Post by Krusty
Except they didn't patch me up, they gave the wrong diagnosis & told me
to do things that made it worse. Which is pretty much the definition of
clinical negligence surely?

Did he say anything like "if it doesn't get better within x, consult your
GP"?

[Krusty]

Post by Jim

Post by Krusty
Except they didn't patch me up, they gave the wrong diagnosis &
told me to do things that made it worse. Which is pretty much the
definition of clinical negligence surely?

Did he say anything like "if it doesn't get better within x, consult
your GP"?

No.

[M J Carley]

Post by Krusty
Except they didn't patch me up, they gave the wrong diagnosis & told
me to do things that made it worse. Which is pretty much the
definition of clinical negligence surely?

No. If they took reasonable care to diagnose you, but got the
diagnosis wrong, they were in error, but not negligent.

[Krusty]

Post by M J Carley

Post by Krusty
Except they didn't patch me up, they gave the wrong diagnosis & told
me to do things that made it worse. Which is pretty much the
definition of clinical negligence surely?

No. If they took reasonable care to diagnose you, but got the
diagnosis wrong, they were in error, but not negligent.

Not according to the brief bit of googling I've done this morning.

[M J Carley]

Post by Krusty

Post by M J Carley

Post by Krusty
Except they didn't patch me up, they gave the wrong diagnosis & told
me to do things that made it worse. Which is pretty much the
definition of clinical negligence surely?

No. If they took reasonable care to diagnose you, but got the
diagnosis wrong, they were in error, but not negligent.

Not according to the brief bit of googling I've done this morning.

So where do you claim they fell down with respect to the tort of
negligence?

[Krusty]

Post by Krusty

Post by M J Carley

Post by Krusty
Except they didn't patch me up, they gave the wrong diagnosis &

told >> > me to do things that made it worse. Which is pretty much the

Post by Krusty

Post by M J Carley

Post by Krusty
definition of clinical negligence surely?

No. If they took reasonable care to diagnose you, but got the
diagnosis wrong, they were in error, but not negligent.

Not according to the brief bit of googling I've done this morning.

So where do you claim they fell down with respect to the tort of
negligence?

They didn't take 'reasonable care' to diagnose me, they spent about 2
minutes with me & declared it 'a bit of a mystery' & told me to carry
on as normal.

Had the doctor asked a colleague for a second opinion, or arranged a
scan or something, that would be a different story.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Krusty

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
The A&E doctor I saw when it happened should've put a brace on it
for 3 weeks & told me to rest it, but instead he just told me to
carry on using it as normal, hence the total recovery time is 5
months rather than the 6-8 weeks it would've been. Needless to say
that's pissed me off. A lot.

A&E is just what is says on the tin. They patch you up and parcel you on.

Except they didn't patch me up, they gave the wrong diagnosis & told me
to do things that made it worse.

I was told not to ride my pushbike because, after all, it was my buggered
knees causing all my leg pain, not the impending stroke. I have started
cycling again. Much better now.

[Switters]

Post by Paul Carmichael
I was told not to ride my pushbike because, after all, it was my buggered
knees causing all my leg pain, not the impending stroke. I have started
cycling again. Much better now.

Yeah, coz you need to lose more weight, fatty.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Switters

Post by Paul Carmichael
I was told not to ride my pushbike because, after all, it was my buggered
knees causing all my leg pain, not the impending stroke. I have started
cycling again. Much better now.

Yeah, coz you need to lose more weight, fatty.

Heh. Got to chuck half my clothes away. Or share them.

[central]

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a correct
diagnosis of my knee injury, which the 2 NHS doctors I'd seen
previously failed to provide. It's a grade 2 MCL (Medial Collateral
Ligament) tear. He reckons it'll take another 3 months or so to fully
heal, & need lots of physio.

I'm sure it was suggested in here that was the correct course of action.
It's simple, really good guys in that sort of field don't need to work
for the NHS (although they may do a bit), so if you want the top dogs
you need to a) research and find them b) pay their chosen rate It isn't
a shortcoming of the NHS

Post by Krusty
The A&E doctor I saw when it happened should've put a brace on it for 3
weeks & told me to rest it, but instead he just told me to carry on
using it as normal, hence the total recovery time is 5 months rather
than the 6-8 weeks it would've been. Needless to say that's pissed me
off. A lot.

A&E is just what is says on the tin. They patch you up and parcel you
on. They are short staffed, over worked and swamped by time wasting
cunts. Don't run them down.

If you translate the the whole story to something mechanical...
1: Bike stopped at side of road - recovery guy had a fiddle and sent it
on its way
2: It played up again, so took it to generic multibrand dealer, who had a
fiddle, charged some money and sent it on its way.
3: It still wasn't fixed, so took it to a specialist with the knowledge
and kit to fix it - cost lots money but now fine
...then does it seem a reasonable story?

A&E - patch things up, refer to ICU etc if its disaster, otherwise send
on way
GP - if A&E have done a patch up, then that's next stop, but they aren't
experts, they do 'everything', and if you aren't happy, ask for a
consultant which, by the way, on a one off basis is way cheaper than
paying med insurance (note: its an insurance policy, not 'private
healthcare').

Doesn't stop me sympathising with Krusty's situation, but, like anything
else, its a system, and you need to put some work in to get the best out.

[Krusty]

Post by Hog

Post by Krusty
I saw the private sports doctor[1] last night, & finally have a

correct >> diagnosis of my knee injury, which the 2 NHS doctors I'd
seen >> previously failed to provide. It's a grade 2 MCL (Medial
Collateral >> Ligament) tear. He reckons it'll take another 3 months
or so to fully >> heal, & need lots of physio.

Post by Hog
I'm sure it was suggested in here that was the correct course of
action. It's simple, really good guys in that sort of field don't
need to work for the NHS (although they may do a bit), so if you
want the top dogs you need to a) research and find them b) pay
their chosen rate It isn't a shortcoming of the NHS

Post by Krusty
The A&E doctor I saw when it happened should've put a brace on it

for 3 >> weeks & told me to rest it, but instead he just told me to
carry on >> using it as normal, hence the total recovery time is 5
months rather >> than the 6-8 weeks it would've been. Needless to say
that's pissed me >> off. A lot.

Post by Hog
A&E is just what is says on the tin. They patch you up and parcel
you on. They are short staffed, over worked and swamped by time
wasting cunts. Don't run them down.

If you translate the the whole story to something mechanical...
1: Bike stopped at side of road - recovery guy had a fiddle and sent
it on its way
2: It played up again, so took it to generic multibrand dealer, who
had a fiddle, charged some money and sent it on its way.
3: It still wasn't fixed, so took it to a specialist with the
knowledge and kit to fix it - cost lots money but now fine
...then does it seem a reasonable story?

Not bad but you need to tweak it a bit along the lines of:

1: Bike stopped at side of road - recovery guy had a fiddle and sent it
on its way, saying he didn't have a clue what was wrong but to give it
a good thrashing anyway.

2: It played up again, so took it to generic multibrand dealer, who had
a fiddle, said to treat it very gently and sent it on its way.

3: It still wasn't fixed, so took it to a specialist with the knowledge
and kit to fix it - took 5 months due to extra damage caused by
following recovery guy's advice & cost lots money but now fine.

[central]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:22:06 +0000, Krusty wrote:

<snip>

Post by central
1: Bike stopped at side of road - recovery guy had a fiddle and sent it
on its way, saying he didn't have a clue what was wrong but to give it a
good thrashing anyway.
2: It played up again, so took it to generic multibrand dealer, who had
a fiddle, said to treat it very gently and sent it on its way.
3: It still wasn't fixed, so took it to a specialist with the knowledge
and kit to fix it - took 5 months due to extra damage caused by
following recovery guy's advice & cost lots money but now fine.

Fair point, well made, but then you really really wouldn't have trusted
the guy at the road side, would you?

[Krusty]

Post by central
<snip>

Post by central
1: Bike stopped at side of road - recovery guy had a fiddle and
sent it on its way, saying he didn't have a clue what was wrong but
to give it a good thrashing anyway.
2: It played up again, so took it to generic multibrand dealer, who
had a fiddle, said to treat it very gently and sent it on its way.
3: It still wasn't fixed, so took it to a specialist with the
knowledge and kit to fix it - took 5 months due to extra damage
caused by following recovery guy's advice & cost lots money but now
fine.

Fair point, well made, but then you really really wouldn't have
trusted the guy at the road side, would you?

Of course I would, I've got 2.5 Italian bikes & it's a well known fact
that that's how you tune them up!

[central]

Post by Krusty

Post by central
<snip>

Post by central
1: Bike stopped at side of road - recovery guy had a fiddle and sent
it on its way, saying he didn't have a clue what was wrong but to
give it a good thrashing anyway.
2: It played up again, so took it to generic multibrand dealer, who
had a fiddle, said to treat it very gently and sent it on its way.
3: It still wasn't fixed, so took it to a specialist with the
knowledge and kit to fix it - took 5 months due to extra damage
caused by following recovery guy's advice & cost lots money but now
fine.

Fair point, well made, but then you really really wouldn't have trusted
the guy at the road side, would you?

Of course I would, I've got 2.5 Italian bikes & it's a well known fact
that that's how you tune them up!

Having owned a few iffy Italian mopeds back in the day, I now see both
your point, and your problem :)