Toyota, GM, and Ford differences

[Built_Well]

I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will
improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy.

The latter half of the following Detroit News excerpt is especially
helpful to GM.

From the Detroit News:

Toyota officials say the key to their system is that it taps the
knowledge and insights of their team members.

They also give them a lot of training and responsibility. At Georgetown, or
any Toyota plant, any team member has the power to stop the line by pulling
what is called an "andon" cord. The term "andon" is derived from the
Japanese word for paper lantern.

Once a worker pulls the cord, if the problem is not resolved before the
car reaches the next stage of assembly, the line stops.

"It may hurt productivity, but it improves quality," said Brian
Walters, J.D. Power research director.

Toyota encourages employees to pull the cord, despite the line stoppages, to
expose problems and address them quickly. In Georgetown, workers reach for
their cords 2,500 times a shift, and stoppages amount to 6-8 minutes per
shift.

But, plant manager Convis said, "at Toyota, it's a problem if you run
(the line) at 100 percent. Something isn't adding up, because life
isn't (perfect) like that."

For the past year and a half, andon cords have hung along the assembly
lines at GM's Oshawa plant. But the concept can get muddled in translation.

"We used to get 17 andon pulls per day," said Rod McVeigh, a supervisor
in the assembly plant. "We're now targeting six a day."

But that might encourage workers to look out less for glitches.

Dennis Pawley, Chrysler's former manufacturing chief and now a consultant
teaching Japanese manufacturing methods, says of the
Big Three: "They don't understand that they don't understand."

[Adam]

Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

Post by Built_Well
I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will
improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy.
The latter half of the following Detroit News excerpt is especially
helpful to GM.
Toyota officials say the key to their system is that it taps the
knowledge and insights of their team members.
They also give them a lot of training and responsibility. At Georgetown, or
any Toyota plant, any team member has the power to stop the line by pulling
what is called an "andon" cord. The term "andon" is derived from the
Japanese word for paper lantern.
Once a worker pulls the cord, if the problem is not resolved before the
car reaches the next stage of assembly, the line stops.
"It may hurt productivity, but it improves quality," said Brian
Walters, J.D. Power research director.
Toyota encourages employees to pull the cord, despite the line stoppages, to
expose problems and address them quickly. In Georgetown, workers reach for
their cords 2,500 times a shift, and stoppages amount to 6-8 minutes per
shift.
But, plant manager Convis said, "at Toyota, it's a problem if you run
(the line) at 100 percent. Something isn't adding up, because life
isn't (perfect) like that."
For the past year and a half, andon cords have hung along the assembly
lines at GM's Oshawa plant. But the concept can get muddled in
translation.
"We used to get 17 andon pulls per day," said Rod McVeigh, a supervisor
in the assembly plant. "We're now targeting six a day."
But that might encourage workers to look out less for glitches.
Dennis Pawley, Chrysler's former manufacturing chief and now a consultant
teaching Japanese manufacturing methods, says of the
Big Three: "They don't understand that they don't understand."

[Dan J.S.]

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

Never say Never. Lots of proud Americans are buying Japanese. Especially
when they find out their Japanese trucks are made in the U.S., while their
American ones are actually made in Canada or Mexico.

[Mike Hunter]

The only Toyota truck made in the US is their small truck that is assembled
in the GM/Toyota plant in California. GM, Ford and Dodge make the vast
majority of the trucks they sell in the US, in the US of American parts.

mike hunt

Post by Dan J.S.

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

Never say Never. Lots of proud Americans are buying Japanese. Especially
when they find out their Japanese trucks are made in the U.S., while their
American ones are actually made in Canada or Mexico.

[Dan J.S.]

Post by Mike Hunter
The only Toyota truck made in the US is their small truck that is
assembled in the GM/Toyota plant in California. GM, Ford and Dodge make
the vast majority of the trucks they sell in the US, in the US of American
parts.
mike hunt

tundras are made in texas....

[Mike Hunter]

Perhaps where you live the may come from the new plant, but I didn't know
that plant was in production yet. The ones I see on the east coast are
assemble in Indiana and show a '5.'

mike hunt

Post by Dan J.S.

Post by Mike Hunter
The only Toyota truck made in the US is their small truck that is
assembled in the GM/Toyota plant in California. GM, Ford and Dodge make
the vast majority of the trucks they sell in the US, in the US of
American parts.
mike hunt

tundras are made in texas....

[351CJ]

Hum Bullshit!

Currently Daimler Chrysler assembles all of their Dodge RAM trucks in
Mexico. The so called new "Hemi" engine is also assembled in Mexico...

Would you care to check your facts and maybe restate your position?

Post by Mike Hunter
The only Toyota truck made in the US is their small truck that is
assembled in the GM/Toyota plant in California. GM, Ford and Dodge make
the vast majority of the trucks they sell in the US, in the US of American
parts.
mike hunt

Post by Dan J.S.

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

Never say Never. Lots of proud Americans are buying Japanese. Especially
when they find out their Japanese trucks are made in the U.S., while
their American ones are actually made in Canada or Mexico.

[Merritt Mullen]

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

True. It will be GM that puts GM out of business.

Merritt

[r***@mail.com]

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business.

But GM could.

Post by Adam
There are too many proud Americans that buy GMs in some form..

Why? GM has no pride in America or Americans and hasn't created even
one new net job in the U.S. in 20-30 years.

[Built_Well]

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
specifically GM management.

And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
12 to 1.

The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.

Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
attention to quality, not just give it lip service.

[Bruce L. Bergman]

Post by Built_Well

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
specifically GM management.
And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
12 to 1.
The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.
Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
attention to quality, not just give it lip service.

Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I
don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But
they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops?
What madness is this?

GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply
through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right
now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue
Phone' ringing.

If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it
on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to
the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and
devise a solution to keep it from happening again.

They're about to go under if from no other reason than the
sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.

Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year,
only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies.
Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the
regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a
contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your
line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the
year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel
rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper
than "Job Bank".

I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and
destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock
was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them
to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the
GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the
current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings
in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will
destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.

And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even
that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler
Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last
10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the
other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.

If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the
buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but
they might be too little, too late.

If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume".
And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin
SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.

--<< Bruce >>--
Posted from a.a.Toyota

[razz]

Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they
are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap dealer
and they line up for repairs just as much as a domestic dealer.

Post by Bruce L. Bergman

Post by Built_Well

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
specifically GM management.
And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
12 to 1.
The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.
Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
attention to quality, not just give it lip service.

Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I
don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But
they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops?
What madness is this?
GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply
through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right
now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue
Phone' ringing.
If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it
on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to
the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and
devise a solution to keep it from happening again.
They're about to go under if from no other reason than the
sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.
Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year,
only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies.
Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the
regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a
contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your
line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the
year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel
rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper
than "Job Bank".
I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and
destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock
was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them
to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the
GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the
current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings
in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will
destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.
And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even
that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler
Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last
10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the
other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.
If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the
buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but
they might be too little, too late.
If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume".
And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin
SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.
--<< Bruce >>--
Posted from a.a.Toyota
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 [phone]
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

[Joey]

Razz,

I guess I'm another one of those idiots because I know for a fact that
Toyota's don't experience the major problems US cars do. It's the only
one I've not had trouble with. I have a friend who owns a transmission
business and I've asked him just how many Toyota transmissions he works
on. His answer---none, but plenty of Fords, GM's, etc. Facts are Facts
and the foreign cars are built better, but then again, I'm just one of
those american idiots, but a proud one !!!!

Post by razz
Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they
are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap dealer
and they line up for repairs just as much as a domestic dealer.

Post by Bruce L. Bergman

Post by Built_Well

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
specifically GM management.
And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
12 to 1.
The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.
Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
attention to quality, not just give it lip service.

Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I
don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But
they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops?
What madness is this?
GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply
through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right
now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue
Phone' ringing.
If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it
on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to
the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and
devise a solution to keep it from happening again.
They're about to go under if from no other reason than the
sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.
Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year,
only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies.
Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the
regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a
contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your
line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the
year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel
rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper
than "Job Bank".
I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and
destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock
was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them
to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the
GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the
current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings
in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will
destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.
And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even
that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler
Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last
10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the
other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.
If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the
buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but
they might be too little, too late.
If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume".
And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin
SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.
--<< Bruce >>--
Posted from a.a.Toyota
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 [phone]
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

[Mike Hunter]

That may be your opinion but certainly not what we saw in my former fleet
service business. We serviced thousands of vehicles monthly in our shops
locate in six eastern states. No particular brand stands out from the
others in dependability. We serviced nearly every brand of vehicle.
Corporate fleets generally keep the vehicles they use, as tools in their
business, for five years or 300K WOF because of federal corporate tax
deprecation laws. We saw little difference among brands in terms of
longevity when the vehicles were given the proper maintenance such as we
provided. The only real difference among brands is style and the price of
accusation, insurance, maintenance and parts. Any vehicle one buys today,
domestic or foreign, well easily last to 200K or more is given decent
maintenance. As a consumer who keeps their vehicle till it dies, one should
be more concerned about the price of the car and its parts than the need for
them, since they all need to be repaired at some point. As to the chance
of your friend seeing more of particular brand, is like asking someone in
the Bronx Zoo if they see more pigeons or penguins. One must remember GM
has five times as many vehicles on the road and Ford four times as many as
any other brand. Since Toyota arrived in the US in 1958, the past few years
is the only time it has sold more than 1,000,000 vehicles annually, while GM
and Ford sold more than half of ALL of the up to 19,000,000 vehicles sold
annually in the US over the same period. Even today GM and Ford sell more
trucks alone than does Toyota, Lexus, and Scion sells cars and trucks
combined today.



mike hunt

Post by Joey
Razz,
I guess I'm another one of those idiots because I know for a fact that
Toyota's don't experience the major problems US cars do. It's the only
one I've not had trouble with. I have a friend who owns a transmission
business and I've asked him just how many Toyota transmissions he works
on. His answer---none, but plenty of Fords, GM's, etc. Facts are Facts
and the foreign cars are built better, but then again, I'm just one of
those american idiots, but a proud one !!!!

[dizzy]

Post by Mike Hunter
That may be your opinion

Every consider using paragraphs, "Mike". I for one never read those
verbose messes you leave. Of course, I know it's all bullshit anyway,
coming from you.

[Bruce L. Bergman]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:49:02 -0500, "Mike Hunter"

Post by Mike Hunter
That may be your opinion but certainly not what we saw in my former fleet
service business. We serviced thousands of vehicles monthly in our shops
locate in six eastern states. No particular brand stands out from the
others in dependability. We serviced nearly every brand of vehicle.

<Big SniP>

Just a note of warning to you folks in the GM and Ford groups, and
to the new people at alt.autos.toyota :

Mike Hunt <Beavis> "Heh heh heh, he said My Cunt!" </Beavis> is our
resident nym-shifting Troll. Take everything he says with a pound or
two of salt, a pinch simply won't do.

In his eyes the Domestic auto makers can do no wrong, but for some
unknown reason he hangs out in a Toyota newsgroup haranguing all the
Toyota owners... And every single time he tries to trot out "facts"
about his background or experience in the car biz, or "facts" about
how wonderful domestic cars are, they have been systematically proven
to be bigger whoppers than Jon Lovitz and his "liar" sketches on
Saturday Night Live.

"Yeah, yeah, that's it! That's the ticket..."

He's owned "The Biggest Ford Dealer in the state... or "The Biggest
Dodge Dealer in..." but he won't give us any real names to verify who
he really is. And even the people here who are in the car business in
that neck of the country have never heard of him, or anyone with an
experience set approaching the one he's pawned off on us.

His "facts" shift wildly between each telling because he forgot
which lies he told last month. I've given up trying to keep up with
them all myself, but someone here was keeping a list.

He even tries to invent BS for his multiple screen names, like he's
using one of "the many computers in his palatial mansion", or "one of
the employee computers" at his sprawling office complex after hours,
all set up with different user names, or he's "posting from his
Vacation House in Key West Florida", but everything comes from the
same Windows home computer running Outlook Express, and a Penn
Teledata ptd.net dial-up modem pool connection in Pennsylvania.

One time he teased us with a street address (the hundreds block
only) for his alleged vacation house in Key West, but someone checked
- the street existed, but if there was a house at that hundred-block
address it would be about 1/2 mile offshore...

Reader Beware.

--<< Bruce >>--

[Mike Hunter]

I defy you to prove where I ever said I owned any business other than my
former fleet service business. I never said I owned a dealership, let alone
a Dodge of Ford dealership, that I ever gave the address of my home in Key
West, that I ever said domestic can do not wrong, or that Toyota did not
make good vehicles, or any of the other fantasies in your post. Every
statistical fact I post can be verified by anybody willing to do the search.
Only a fool would post their actual address on the web as do you. What will
you post next your SS number? Your are weird LOL

mike hunt

Post by Bruce L. Bergman
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:49:02 -0500, "Mike Hunter"

Post by Mike Hunter
That may be your opinion but certainly not what we saw in my former fleet

service business. We serviced thousands of vehicles monthly in our shops
locate in six eastern states. No particular brand stands out from the
others in dependability. We serviced nearly every brand of vehicle.
Corporate fleets generally keep the vehicles they use, as tools in their
business, for five years or 300K WOF because of federal corporate tax
deprecation laws. We saw little difference among brands in terms of
longevity when the vehicles were given the proper maintenance such as we
provided. The only real difference among brands is style and the price of
accusation, insurance, maintenance and parts. Any vehicle one buys today,
domestic or foreign, well easily last to 200K or more is given decent
maintenance. As a consumer who keeps their vehicle till it dies, one should
be more concerned about the price of the car and its parts than the need for
them, since they all need to be repaired at some point. As to the chance
of your friend seeing more of particular brand, is like asking someone in
the Bronx Zoo if they see more pigeons or penguins. One must remember GM
has five times as many vehicles on the road and Ford four times as many as
any other brand. Since Toyota arrived in the US in 1958, the past few years
is the only time it has sold more than 1,000,000 vehicles annually, while GM
and Ford sold more than half of ALL of the up to 19,000,000 vehicles sold
annually in the US over the same period. Even today GM and Ford sell more
trucks alone than does Toyota, Lexus, and Scion sells cars and trucks
combined today.



mike hunt

Post by Bruce L. Bergman
Just a note of warning to you folks in the GM and Ford groups, and
Mike Hunt <Beavis> "Heh heh heh, he said My Cunt!" </Beavis> is our
resident nym-shifting Troll. Take everything he says with a pound or
two of salt, a pinch simply won't do.
In his eyes the Domestic auto makers can do no wrong, but for some
unknown reason he hangs out in a Toyota newsgroup haranguing all the
Toyota owners... And every single time he tries to trot out "facts"
about his background or experience in the car biz, or "facts" about
how wonderful domestic cars are, they have been systematically proven
to be bigger whoppers than Jon Lovitz and his "liar" sketches on
Saturday Night Live.
"Yeah, yeah, that's it! That's the ticket..."
He's owned "The Biggest Ford Dealer in the state... or "The Biggest
Dodge Dealer in..." but he won't give us any real names to verify who
he really is. And even the people here who are in the car business in
that neck of the country have never heard of him, or anyone with an
experience set approaching the one he's pawned off on us.
His "facts" shift wildly between each telling because he forgot
which lies he told last month. I've given up trying to keep up with
them all myself, but someone here was keeping a list.
He even tries to invent BS for his multiple screen names, like he's
using one of "the many computers in his palatial mansion", or "one of
the employee computers" at his sprawling office complex after hours,
all set up with different user names, or he's "posting from his
Vacation House in Key West Florida", but everything comes from the
same Windows home computer running Outlook Express, and a Penn
Teledata ptd.net dial-up modem pool connection in Pennsylvania.
One time he teased us with a street address (the hundreds block
only) for his alleged vacation house in Key West, but someone checked
- the street existed, but if there was a house at that hundred-block
address it would be about 1/2 mile offshore...
Reader Beware.
--<< Bruce >>--
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 [phone]
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

[Realto Margarino]

Post by razz
Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your
info they are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a
mechanic at a jap dealer and they line up for repairs just as much
as a domestic dealer.

Why would anyone take the word of a top-poster? Learn how to post
properly and people will give you more respect.

cordially, as always,

rm

[s***@gmail.com]

I really don't think it's the quality difference that's hurting them as
much as their crappy car lineup and union agreements.

[H***@nospam.nix]

Post by s***@gmail.com
I really don't think it's the quality difference that's hurting them as
much as their crappy car lineup and union agreements.

The data I have seen would indicate Toyota and Honda to have in
the order of a half percent problems, Volkswagen about twice that,
and some GM models in between. Doesn't seem like much, but they
also don't tell much about how these data were obtained and how
well the problems were resolved by the manufacturer. The dissatisfaction
with GM and Ford seems to go deeper than just this statistic.

But I'll agree that the car lineup has not endeared itself to many in the
USA, and the union agreements (a parameter related to poor management
practices as well) seem to drain the lifeforce from these companies.

[joe schmoe]

Post by H***@nospam.nix

Post by s***@gmail.com
I really don't think it's the quality difference that's hurting them as
much as their crappy car lineup and union agreements.

The data I have seen would indicate Toyota and Honda to have in
the order of a half percent problems, Volkswagen about twice that,
and some GM models in between. Doesn't seem like much, but they
also don't tell much about how these data were obtained and how
well the problems were resolved by the manufacturer. The dissatisfaction
with GM and Ford seems to go deeper than just this statistic.
But I'll agree that the car lineup has not endeared itself to many in the
USA, and the union agreements (a parameter related to poor management
practices as well) seem to drain the lifeforce from these companies.

At the moment GM & Ford's lineups suck. They are trying to make
something that isn't American. Economy cars are something that the
Japanese do extremely well (good for poor people). Europeans make
cars that are wonderfully built for narrow substandard roads (but if
you think American cars are unreliable as they age you should look at
BMW electronics and auto transmissions as they age......).

GM & Ford do fairly well with their cars produced in Canada (Gov't
health care lightens the retirement millstone around their neck).

Ford and GM for some reason continue avoiding building what Americans
want and love. Big, Powerful, Safe & Reliable cars. Instead we're
relegated to buying trucks to get what we want. Most amazing of all
the "never say die" Bankruptcy king Chrysler is leading the way. 300,
Magnum, Charger, etc. One would think that with Ford's success in the
new Mustang they could see what needs to be done but.....

Don't count the Big 3 out, just recall how Ford turned around in the
1990's.


PS When the Police and Cabbies start driving Toyota's and Suzuki's
I'll begin to accept that Japanese quality extends beyond "initial
quality".

[Mike Hunter]

Several years ago the NYC Taxi Commission permitted a three year test to
judge FWD cars and minivans for suitability as taxis in the city. Taxi
companies bought domestic and foreign brands for use as taxis, hoping to
same money. Within three months they were showing up in repair shops.
Within two years nearly 90% had been taken out of service. At the end of the
test only RWD vehicles were allowed to be use as Taxis in NYC..

The average NYC CV Taxi has on 300,000,000 miles on the clock and some are
run up to a million miles before being replaced. Many actually start out as
former police vehicles..When I still owned my fleet service business Ford
had around 80% of the corporate fleet business on the east cost. Our
meticulous maintenance records over many years showed that Ford vehicles
were the most cost effect to own, long term, based on the cost of
acquisition, insurance, maintenance, repair, parts and vehicle replacement
costs. No other manufacture even came close in that regard. I was that
experience that led me to switch for Lexus V8s I had been buying to the
Lincoln LS V8 in 1999. The kicker was I saved nearly enough money switching
that I was able to buy my first in a series of Mustang GT convertibles ;)


mike hunt

Post by joe schmoe
Don't count the Big 3 out, just recall how Ford turned around in the
1990's.
PS When the Police and Cabbies start driving Toyota's and Suzuki's
I'll begin to accept that Japanese quality extends beyond "initial
quality".

[Art]

Hi Mike,

The problem is that most of us don't care if a car can go a million miles if
you keep on replacing parts. Most of us just want cars that will go 100,000
miles without replacing any parts. That is why the imports are winning.

Post by Mike Hunter
Several years ago the NYC Taxi Commission permitted a three year test to
judge FWD cars and minivans for suitability as taxis in the city. Taxi
companies bought domestic and foreign brands for use as taxis, hoping to
same money. Within three months they were showing up in repair shops.
Within two years nearly 90% had been taken out of service. At the end of
the test only RWD vehicles were allowed to be use as Taxis in NYC..
The average NYC CV Taxi has on 300,000,000 miles on the clock and some are
run up to a million miles before being replaced. Many actually start out
as former police vehicles..When I still owned my fleet service business
Ford had around 80% of the corporate fleet business on the east cost. Our
meticulous maintenance records over many years showed that Ford vehicles
were the most cost effect to own, long term, based on the cost of
acquisition, insurance, maintenance, repair, parts and vehicle replacement
costs. No other manufacture even came close in that regard. I was that
experience that led me to switch for Lexus V8s I had been buying to the
Lincoln LS V8 in 1999. The kicker was I saved nearly enough money
switching that I was able to buy my first in a series of Mustang GT
convertibles ;)
mike hunt

Post by joe schmoe
Don't count the Big 3 out, just recall how Ford turned around in the
1990's.
PS When the Police and Cabbies start driving Toyota's and Suzuki's
I'll begin to accept that Japanese quality extends beyond "initial
quality".

[Mike Hunter]

The point was those CV hold up better than ANY of the FWD vehicles tested
for use in sever Taxi service, foreign or domestic. Any vehicle on the
market today can easily run to 200K trouble free, given minimal maintenance.
I own a half dozen old cars that are in great condition with anywhere for
110K to 300K on the clock.

mike hunt

Post by Art
Hi Mike,
The problem is that most of us don't care if a car can go a million miles
if you keep on replacing parts. Most of us just want cars that will go
100,000 miles without replacing any parts. That is why the imports are
winning.

Post by Mike Hunter
Several years ago the NYC Taxi Commission permitted a three year test to
judge FWD cars and minivans for suitability as taxis in the city. Taxi
companies bought domestic and foreign brands for use as taxis, hoping to
same money. Within three months they were showing up in repair shops.
Within two years nearly 90% had been taken out of service. At the end of
the test only RWD vehicles were allowed to be use as Taxis in NYC..
The average NYC CV Taxi has on 300,000,000 miles on the clock and some
are run up to a million miles before being replaced. Many actually start
out as former police vehicles..When I still owned my fleet service
business Ford had around 80% of the corporate fleet business on the east
cost. Our meticulous maintenance records over many years showed that
Ford vehicles were the most cost effect to own, long term, based on the
cost of acquisition, insurance, maintenance, repair, parts and vehicle
replacement costs. No other manufacture even came close in that regard.
I was that experience that led me to switch for Lexus V8s I had been
buying to the Lincoln LS V8 in 1999. The kicker was I saved nearly
enough money switching that I was able to buy my first in a series of
Mustang GT convertibles ;)
mike hunt

[dizzy]

Post by s***@gmail.com
I really don't think it's the quality difference that's hurting them as
much as their crappy car lineup and union agreements.

I agree. They intentionally pursued the low-cost, mediocre-car
strategy, ceding the "best of class" status to cars like the Accord.

[dizzy]

Post by Realto Margarino
Why would anyone take the word of a top-poster?

Hehe.

Post by Realto Margarino
Learn how to post
properly and people will give you more respect.

Snap!

[Frank]

I do not think it is as much a problem of real quality "deficit"
but more the rampant *perception* of bad quality from the buying
public, along with GM management, union contract, etc...

No, wait, my venture is going back to the dealership yet again
tomorrow for another problem with the ABS. It is GM bad quality
after all!

[Mike Hunter]

I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;)

mike hunt

I do not think it is as much a problem of real quality "deficit" but more
the rampant *perception* of bad quality from the buying public, along with
GM management, union contract, etc...
No, wait, my venture is going back to the dealership yet again tomorrow
for another problem with the ABS. It is GM bad quality after all!

[James C. Reeves]

Post by Mike Hunter
I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;)
mike hunt

Or the tranny problems with the Honda Pilot/Acura MDX that cost over $7K to
fix....

[Mike Hunter]

Lets face it many buyers believe the brand they buy is the best, and the
rest are junk, that is why they buy what they buy and more buyers by GM
vehicles than any other. Ford and Chrysler follow and Toyota and Honda are
forth and firth. Toyota owners in particular love to disparage other brands
for some reason, perhaps they want to justify to themselves why they paid so
much more to buy a vehicle that is nor better or worse than the others. LOL


mike hunt

Post by James C. Reeves

Post by Mike Hunter
I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;)
mike hunt

Or the tranny problems with the Honda Pilot/Acura MDX that cost over $7K
to fix....

[dizzy]

Post by Mike Hunter
Lets face it many buyers believe the brand they buy is the best,

Almost no one does that, actually. Most settle for the best
compromise that they can afford.

Post by Mike Hunter
and the rest are junk,

Idiot. That's not even close to being true. "Not the best choice for
me" does not equal "junk".

Post by Mike Hunter
that is why they buy what they buy and more buyers by GM
vehicles than any other.

You can't build a logical argument on such obviously false premises as
you embarrassed yourself with above, cretin.

GM still sells a lot because of their large "old" customer base and
their broad range of products.

Post by Mike Hunter
Ford and Chrysler follow and Toyota and Honda are
forth and firth. Toyota owners in particular love to disparage other brands
for some reason,

Says the proven liar.

In my experience, all brands have their fanatics. Toyota owners are
certainly no worse than others, especially in this foreign (to Toyota)
country.

Post by Mike Hunter
perhaps they want to justify to themselves why they paid so
much more to buy a vehicle that is nor better or worse than the others.

The facts say otherwise, "Mike", and you get that "so much more" back
when you resell. LOL!

[H***@nospam.nix]

Post by Mike Hunter
I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;)
mike hunt

As a matter of fact, I have not heard of the ongoing brake problems with
Honda.

My son has owned several Hondas since his first in 1990, and I asked him
about
the issue. He says he has never had a problem with them.

What are you referring to?

[Mike Hunter]

The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up linings
and rotors. Nest time you walk down a busy city street take note of all the
Hondas that you see parked that have wheels, particularly aluminum wheels,
that are brown or blacked with brake and rotor dust. ;)


mike hunt

Post by H***@nospam.nix

Post by Mike Hunter
I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;)
mike hunt

As a matter of fact, I have not heard of the ongoing brake problems with
Honda.
My son has owned several Hondas since his first in 1990, and I asked him
about
the issue. He says he has never had a problem with them.
What are you referring to?

[Sammy]

Post by Mike Hunter
The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up linings
and rotors. Nest time you walk down a busy city street take note of all the
Hondas that you see parked that have wheels, particularly aluminum wheels,
that are brown or blacked with brake and rotor dust. ;)
mike hunt

So, what was the deal with the front rotors and pads on the
Malibu?... and the three trips to the garage to get the gas
guage problem fixed?...and the four trips within a five week
period to get the temperature guage problem fixed?.. all in
less than 35000 km.

Sammy

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by H***@nospam.nix

Post by Mike Hunter
I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;)
mike hunt

As a matter of fact, I have not heard of the ongoing brake problems with
Honda.
My son has owned several Hondas since his first in 1990, and I asked him
about
the issue. He says he has never had a problem with them.
What are you referring to?

[Mike Hunter]

Surely you don't think your vehicle is the only one to has problems? The
point is no manufacture makes a perfect vehicle, they all make some that are
not up to par, that is why they all offer a warranty. Every manufacture
statically makes between 1% to just over 2% that are problematic. Buying a
particular brand hopping you will not get on of the 2% is an effort in
futility. The odds are far greater one will get one of the 98% that are
great vehicles, not matter whose brand in on the hood.

mike hunt

.

Post by Mike Hunter
The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up
linings and rotors. Nest time you walk down a busy city street take note
of all the Hondas that you see parked that have wheels, particularly
aluminum wheels, that are brown or blacked with brake and rotor dust.
;)
mike hunt

So, what was the deal with the front rotors and pads on the Malibu?... and
the three trips to the garage to get the gas guage problem fixed?...and
the four trips within a five week period to get the temperature guage
problem fixed?.. all in less than 35000 km.
Sammy

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by H***@nospam.nix

Post by Mike Hunter
I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;)
mike hunt

As a matter of fact, I have not heard of the ongoing brake problems with
Honda.
My son has owned several Hondas since his first in 1990, and I asked him
about
the issue. He says he has never had a problem with them.
What are you referring to?

[dh]

Post by Mike Hunter
Surely you don't think your vehicle is the only one to has problems? The
point is no manufacture makes a perfect vehicle, they all make some that are
not up to par, that is why they all offer a warranty. Every manufacture
statically makes between 1% to just over 2% that are problematic. Buying a
particular brand hopping you will not get on of the 2% is an effort in
futility. The odds are far greater one will get one of the 98% that are
great vehicles, not matter whose brand in on the hood.
mike hunt

I'll take the 1% choice, thank you. That will be half the likelihood of
difficulties compared to the 2% choice.

In addition, when you get that 1% or 2% failure, what does the manufacturer
do about it? I don't have any sludging problem with my Toyota 3.0L V6
engine. However, about a year after I'd gotten the vehicle, I received a
letter from Toyota warning me that people had reported problems with this.
The letter said not to worry about it, maintain the engine normally, show a
good-faith effort to keep it up and Toyota would fix any engine problems
that came along.

A marked contrast to my Ford experience with 3 transmission failures. From
Ford, I got a phone call that said "too bad."

Not that I believe your figures, anyway.

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by Mike Hunter
The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up
linings and rotors. Nest time you walk down a busy city street take note
of all the Hondas that you see parked that have wheels, particularly
aluminum wheels, that are brown or blacked with brake and rotor dust.
;)
mike hunt

So, what was the deal with the front rotors and pads on the Malibu?... and
the three trips to the garage to get the gas guage problem fixed?...and
the four trips within a five week period to get the temperature guage
problem fixed?.. all in less than 35000 km.
Sammy

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by H***@nospam.nix

Post by Mike Hunter
I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;)
mike hunt

As a matter of fact, I have not heard of the ongoing brake problems with
Honda.
My son has owned several Hondas since his first in 1990, and I asked him
about
the issue. He says he has never had a problem with them.
What are you referring to?

[razz]

Like we believe your stories

Post by dh

Post by Mike Hunter
Surely you don't think your vehicle is the only one to has problems?

The

Post by dh

Post by Mike Hunter
point is no manufacture makes a perfect vehicle, they all make some that

are

Post by Mike Hunter
not up to par, that is why they all offer a warranty. Every manufacture
statically makes between 1% to just over 2% that are problematic.

Buying

Post by dh
a

Post by Mike Hunter
particular brand hopping you will not get on of the 2% is an effort in
futility. The odds are far greater one will get one of the 98% that are
great vehicles, not matter whose brand in on the hood.
mike hunt

I'll take the 1% choice, thank you. That will be half the likelihood of
difficulties compared to the 2% choice.
In addition, when you get that 1% or 2% failure, what does the

manufacturer

Post by dh
do about it? I don't have any sludging problem with my Toyota 3.0L V6
engine. However, about a year after I'd gotten the vehicle, I received a
letter from Toyota warning me that people had reported problems with this.
The letter said not to worry about it, maintain the engine normally, show a
good-faith effort to keep it up and Toyota would fix any engine problems
that came along.
A marked contrast to my Ford experience with 3 transmission failures.

From

Post by dh
Ford, I got a phone call that said "too bad."
Not that I believe your figures, anyway.

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by Mike Hunter
The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up
linings and rotors. Nest time you walk down a busy city street take

note

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by Mike Hunter
of all the Hondas that you see parked that have wheels, particularly
aluminum wheels, that are brown or blacked with brake and rotor dust.
;)
mike hunt

So, what was the deal with the front rotors and pads on the Malibu?...

and

Post by Mike Hunter

the three trips to the garage to get the gas guage problem

fixed?...and

Post by dh

Post by Mike Hunter

the four trips within a five week period to get the temperature guage
problem fixed?.. all in less than 35000 km.
Sammy

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by H***@nospam.nix

Post by Mike Hunter
I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you

;)

Post by dh

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by H***@nospam.nix

Post by Mike Hunter
mike hunt

As a matter of fact, I have not heard of the ongoing brake problems

with

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by H***@nospam.nix
Honda.
My son has owned several Hondas since his first in 1990, and I asked

him

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by H***@nospam.nix
about
the issue. He says he has never had a problem with them.
What are you referring to?

[dizzy]

Post by Mike Hunter
The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up linings
and rotors. Nest time you walk down a busy city street take note of all the
Hondas that you see parked that have wheels, particularly aluminum wheels,
that are brown or blacked with brake and rotor dust. ;)

Idiot. Brake dust on the wheels is NOT a sign of over-heated or
inadequate brakes. Many cars use softer pads for better performance
and feel - look at any BMW that hasn't had it's wheels recently
cleaned.

[r***@mail.com]

Post by razz
Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they
are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap dealer
and they line up for repairs just as much as a domestic dealer.

That's not what internal GM documents from the early 1990s said, the
newest ones I know about.

Honda, Toyota, and maybe Subaru have made the overall Japanese quality
tally better than Ford's or GM's, while Suzuki, Isuzu, and maybe Nissan
have been nothing special.

[Dana]

Sorry , that's just not what I see at the Toyota dealer near me . Service
department is ALWAYS dead .

Post by razz
Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they
are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap dealer
and they line up for repairs just as much as a domestic dealer.

Post by Bruce L. Bergman

Post by Built_Well

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
specifically GM management.
And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
12 to 1.
The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.
Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
attention to quality, not just give it lip service.

Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I
don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But
they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops?
What madness is this?
GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply
through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right
now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue
Phone' ringing.
If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it
on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to
the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and
devise a solution to keep it from happening again.
They're about to go under if from no other reason than the
sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.
Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year,
only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies.
Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the
regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a
contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your
line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the
year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel
rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper
than "Job Bank".
I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and
destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock
was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them
to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the
GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the
current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings
in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will
destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.
And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even
that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler
Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last
10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the
other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.
If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the
buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but
they might be too little, too late.
If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume".
And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin
SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.
--<< Bruce >>--
Posted from a.a.Toyota
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 [phone]
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

[razz]

So is your brain. Like I said, I worked at one and the bays were just as
full as anyone else.

Post by Dana
Sorry , that's just not what I see at the Toyota dealer near me . Service
department is ALWAYS dead .

Post by razz
Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they
are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap dealer
and they line up for repairs just as much as a domestic dealer.

Post by Bruce L. Bergman

Post by Built_Well

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
specifically GM management.
And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
12 to 1.
The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.
Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
attention to quality, not just give it lip service.

Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I
don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But
they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops?
What madness is this?
GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply
through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right
now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue
Phone' ringing.
If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it
on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to
the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and
devise a solution to keep it from happening again.
They're about to go under if from no other reason than the
sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.
Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year,
only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies.
Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the
regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a
contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your
line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the
year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel
rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper
than "Job Bank".
I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and
destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock
was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them
to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the
GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the
current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings
in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will
destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.
And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even
that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler
Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last
10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the
other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.
If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the
buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but
they might be too little, too late.
If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume".
And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin
SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.
--<< Bruce >>--
Posted from a.a.Toyota
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 [phone]
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

[John Horner]

Post by razz
So is your brain. Like I said, I worked at one and the bays were just as
full as anyone else.

Hmmm, the average Toyota dealer in the US sells three times as many
vehicles as does the average GM dealer, so your observations don't
really mean a whole lot.

John

[Mike Hunter]

The is factually incorrect. Perhaps you meant to say the average dealer,
that sells Toyota BRAND vehicles sells more vehicles per dealership? Since
there are far fewer Toyota brand dealership, than say the average Chevrolet
dealer or Buick dealer which would be factually correct. The ratios is
nowhere near three times as many however. In the US an average GM
dealership sells far more vehicles than an average Toyota MOTOR Company
dealerships sell Toyotas, Lexus and Scion vehicles. FMC and Chrysler Motors
dealers sell more vehicles, on average, the Toyota Motors dealers, as well.

One needs to peruse Toyotas press releases and ads carefully. Toyota
missives have a tendency to confuse buyers. The only vehicle that Toyota
Motor Company sell in the US, in a comparably high volume is the Camry that
sells at a rate over 600K, and some what the Corolla. Nearly all of their
other models sell in volumes less the 300K. Toyota for example gives the
impression they sell more cars than any other manufacture in the US, which
in not factually correct. The sell more cars with the same brand name on
the hood but not more cars with more than one brand name on the hood. GM
and Ford sell more cars. In addition GM, Ford, and Chrysler to a lesser
extent, sell trucks alone in numbers two to three times greater than any
cars Toyota sells .


mike hunt

Post by John Horner

Post by razz
So is your brain. Like I said, I worked at one and the bays were just as
full as anyone else.

Hmmm, the average Toyota dealer in the US sells three times as many
vehicles as does the average GM dealer, so your observations don't really
mean a whole lot.
John

[Mike Hunter]

What makes you believe that? GM sells far more cars than Toyota, somebody
must like the cars they sell. Same with trucks and SUVs. GM sells more of
those in two months than Toyota sells in a year. Toyota make good vehicles
but apparently a lot of buyer prefer something other than a Toyota since the
only sell around 10% of all the vehicles sold in the US ;)


mike hunt


"Bruce L. Bergman" <***@earthlink.invalid> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
.

Post by Bruce L. Bergman
If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the
buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but
they might be too little, too late.
--<< Bruce >>--
Posted from a.a.Toyota
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 [phone]
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

[dizzy]

Post by Mike Hunter
What makes you believe that? GM sells far more cars than Toyota,

Wrong, idiot, and since yo know it's wrong, that makes you a liar as
well.

Post by Mike Hunter
somebody must like the cars they sell.

Some Americans, too stubborn and/or stupid to even consider the
foreign competition, yes. Also those for whom mediocrity suits them
fine.

[Mike Hunter]

Please enlighten us. Post the total cars sales for GM and total car sales
for Toyota for 2005 so we can see which statement is correct. LOL


mike hunt

Post by dizzy

Post by Mike Hunter
What makes you believe that? GM sells far more cars than Toyota,

Wrong, idiot, and since yo know it's wrong, that makes you a liar as
well.

Post by Mike Hunter
somebody must like the cars they sell.

Some Americans, too stubborn and/or stupid to even consider the
foreign competition, yes. Also those for whom mediocrity suits them
fine.

[dizzy]

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by dizzy

Post by Mike Hunter
What makes you believe that? GM sells far more cars than Toyota,

Wrong, idiot, and since yo know it's wrong, that makes you a liar as
well.

Please enlighten us. Post the total cars sales for GM and total car sales
for Toyota for 2005 so we can see which statement is correct.

Toyota and GM are pretty much neck-and-neck in total vehecle sales, as
many news accounts state. I was fustrated by an inability to find a
news source that does not play fast and loose with the terms "cars"
(excluding trucks) and "vehicles" (including trucks), but obviously
GM's sales are a higher percentage of trucks, making Toyota the maker
of the most cars.

[Hairy]

Post by dizzy

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by dizzy

Post by Mike Hunter
What makes you believe that? GM sells far more cars than Toyota,

Wrong, idiot, and since yo know it's wrong, that makes you a liar as
well.

Please enlighten us. Post the total cars sales for GM and total car sales
for Toyota for 2005 so we can see which statement is correct.

Toyota and GM are pretty much neck-and-neck in total vehecle sales, as
many news accounts state. I was fustrated by an inability to find a
news source that does not play fast and loose with the terms "cars"
(excluding trucks) and "vehicles" (including trucks), but obviously
GM's sales are a higher percentage of trucks, making Toyota the maker
of the most cars.

In other words, you couldn't find anyone that agrees with you.

Dave

[GLitwinski]

Think about what you are writing. There is nothing wrong with setting a goal
of fewer quality lapse incidents. It is a good thing. When someone pulls
the cord, it means that the system has failed and needs to be fixed.

The trick is that you don't want to punish anyone for pulling the cord. Way
you do that is you track customer com plaints back to a plant and shift and
if the complaint was related to something that could have been spotted make
sure it does not happen again. A balancing act.

Now, I owned a 2000 Yukon XL for 5 years. It was mostly a good truck, but it
did have several failures it should not have in 30,000 miles; two outside
mirror failures, electric fuel pump failure, rear winder defogger tab fell
off, seat heater control button failure, abs sensor failure. None of these
would have been caught in an assembly plant. All but one were component
failures caused by (probably) supplier parts that were poorly designed/made.
I think GM is just squeezing their suppliers too hard and they are cutting
corners. At least in my case.

Post by Bruce L. Bergman

Post by Built_Well

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
specifically GM management.
And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
12 to 1.
The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.
Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
attention to quality, not just give it lip service.

Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I
don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But
they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops?
What madness is this?
GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply
through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right
now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue
Phone' ringing.
If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it
on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to
the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and
devise a solution to keep it from happening again.
They're about to go under if from no other reason than the
sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.
Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year,
only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies.
Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the
regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a
contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your
line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the
year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel
rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper
than "Job Bank".
I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and
destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock
was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them
to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the
GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the
current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings
in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will
destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.
And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even
that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler
Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last
10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the
other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.
If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the
buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but
they might be too little, too late.
If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume".
And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin
SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.
--<< Bruce >>--
Posted from a.a.Toyota
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 [phone]
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

[GLitwinski]

Come to think of it, there was one more failure (DOA rear power window).
Wow, that's quite a few failures in 5 years.

Post by Bruce L. Bergman

Post by Built_Well

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
specifically GM management.
And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
12 to 1.
The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.
Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
attention to quality, not just give it lip service.

Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I
don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But
they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops?
What madness is this?
GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply
through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right
now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue
Phone' ringing.
If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it
on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to
the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and
devise a solution to keep it from happening again.
They're about to go under if from no other reason than the
sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.
Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year,
only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies.
Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the
regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a
contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your
line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the
year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel
rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper
than "Job Bank".
I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and
destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock
was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them
to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the
GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the
current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings
in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will
destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.
And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even
that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler
Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last
10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the
other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.
If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the
buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but
they might be too little, too late.
If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume".
And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin
SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.
--<< Bruce >>--
Posted from a.a.Toyota
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 [phone]
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

[dh]

Post by GLitwinski
Come to think of it, there was one more failure (DOA rear power window).
Wow, that's quite a few failures in 5 years.

Are you happy with it? Do you feel you got a good enough deal, or otherwise
got enough value out of it, to justify having it sidelined to fix these
problems?

If the answer's "yes," then GM should make another sale to you, presuming
they build a vehicle that fits your identified needs. If the answer's "no,"
GM's got a problem to address.

Post by GLitwinski

Post by Bruce L. Bergman

Post by Built_Well

Post by Adam
Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud
americans that buy GMs in some form..

I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more
specifically GM management.
And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming
awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping
12 to 1.
The way for GM Management to cut down the company's
huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.
Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at
Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay
attention to quality, not just give it lip service.

Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I
don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But
they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops?
What madness is this?
GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply
through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right
now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue
Phone' ringing.
If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it
on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to
the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and
devise a solution to keep it from happening again.
They're about to go under if from no other reason than the
sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.
Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year,
only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies.
Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the
regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a
contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your
line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the
year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel
rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper
than "Job Bank".
I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and
destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock
was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them
to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the
GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the
current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings
in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will
destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.
And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even
that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler
Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last
10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the
other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.
If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the
buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but
they might be too little, too late.
If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume".
And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin
SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.
--<< Bruce >>--
Posted from a.a.Toyota
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 [phone]
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

[H***@nospam.nix]

Post by Built_Well
I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will
improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy.
The latter half of the following Detroit News excerpt is especially
helpful to GM.

People want quality, but not at any price. Every company seems to be quick
to brag about their quality control, ISO certifications, and so forth, but
not
every one makes it work.

Quality programs often lead to better REPRODUCIBILITY, but you can
continue to manufacture the same level of product. Most programs have
a statement calling for continuous improvement of quality too, but it
sometimes
gets lost in the haze.

People may not be willing to pay for quality, but neither are they happy to
accept shoddy goods.

GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy,
and starting with fresh faces and ideas.

[Mike Hunter]

What makes you think that? GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined. ;)

mike hunt

Post by H***@nospam.nix
GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy,
and starting with fresh faces and ideas.

[dizzy]

Top posting troll Mike Hunter wrote:

(top posting corrected)

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by H***@nospam.nix
GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy,
and starting with fresh faces and ideas.

What makes you think that?

Because it's probably true. If for nothing else, they'll probably
declare bankruptcy to get out of their union deals, just like the
airlines have had to do.

Post by Mike Hunter
GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined. ;)

Idiot liar. No, they do not.

Also, what's the trend of Ford and GM's market share, "Mike"?

[Mike Hunter]

The tend has been down.but GM and Ford still sell more vehicles than all of
Japanese brands combined. The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the
vehicle sold in the US, whether you believe that or not makes no difference
in that fact.


mike hunt

Post by dizzy
(top posting corrected)

Post by Mike Hunter
GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture

Also, what's the trend of Ford and GM's market share, "Mike"?

[dizzy]

Top-posting troll Mike Hunter wrote:

(top posting corrected)

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by dizzy
(top posting corrected)

Post by Mike Hunter
GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined.

Also, what's the trend of Ford and GM's market share, "Mike"?

The tend has been down.but GM and Ford still sell more vehicles than all of
Japanese brands combined. The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the
vehicle sold in the US, whether you believe that or not makes no difference
in that fact.

Idiot. You're changing your story to "in the US" and also to include
"the three domestics".

[Mike Hunter]

Smoking that loco weed again eh? LOL


mike hunt

Post by dizzy
(top posting corrected)

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by dizzy
(top posting corrected)

Post by Mike Hunter
GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined.

Also, what's the trend of Ford and GM's market share, "Mike"?

The tend has been down.but GM and Ford still sell more vehicles than all of
Japanese brands combined. The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the
vehicle sold in the US, whether you believe that or not makes no difference
in that fact.

Idiot. You're changing your story to "in the US" and also to include
"the three domestics".

[Charles]

Post by Mike Hunter
Smoking that loco weed again eh? LOL
mike hunt

Post by dizzy
(top posting corrected)

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by dizzy
(top posting corrected)

Post by Mike Hunter
GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined.

Also, what's the trend of Ford and GM's market share, "Mike"?

The tend has been down.but GM and Ford still sell more vehicles than all of
Japanese brands combined. The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the
vehicle sold in the US, whether you believe that or not makes no difference
in that fact.

Idiot. You're changing your story to "in the US" and also to include
"the three domestics".

OK. Most of us don't have a lot of time for our cars to be in the shop any
more. That's why I own a Toyota. Sure I could own a GM, but by the time I
had 50,000 miles on my old S-10 it was already nickel-and-diming me on
repairs, and seemed to be in the shop as much as it was out.

Charles of Kankakee

[Mike Hunter]

You had problem with your GM vehicle therefore all GM vehicles are bad,
right? LOL


mike hunt

Post by Charles

Post by Mike Hunter
Smoking that loco weed again eh? LOL
mike hunt

Post by dizzy
(top posting corrected)

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by dizzy
(top posting corrected)

Post by Mike Hunter
GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined.

Also, what's the trend of Ford and GM's market share, "Mike"?

The tend has been down.but GM and Ford still sell more vehicles than all of
Japanese brands combined. The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the
vehicle sold in the US, whether you believe that or not makes no difference
in that fact.

Idiot. You're changing your story to "in the US" and also to include
"the three domestics".

OK. Most of us don't have a lot of time for our cars to be in the shop
any more. That's why I own a Toyota. Sure I could own a GM, but by the
time I had 50,000 miles on my old S-10 it was already nickel-and-diming me
on repairs, and seemed to be in the shop as much as it was out.
Charles of Kankakee

[dizzy]

Post by Charles
OK. Most of us don't have a lot of time for our cars to be in the shop any
more. That's why I own a Toyota. Sure I could own a GM, but by the time I
had 50,000 miles on my old S-10 it was already nickel-and-diming me on
repairs, and seemed to be in the shop as much as it was out.

A freind of mine had a GMC Jimmy, and it was a total POS. It was
rusting within a couple years. GM's the worst, from what I've seen.

[RSCamaro]

Post by dizzy

Post by Charles
OK. Most of us don't have a lot of time for our cars to be in the shop any
more. That's why I own a Toyota. Sure I could own a GM, but by the time I
had 50,000 miles on my old S-10 it was already nickel-and-diming me on
repairs, and seemed to be in the shop as much as it was out.

A freind of mine had a GMC Jimmy, and it was a total POS. It was
rusting within a couple years. GM's the worst, from what I've seen.

And how many Toyotas that were built in the 1980's and early 90's do
you see still on the road compared to domestic brands?

Personally I think that all manufacturers design and build cars to
last no longer than 10 years now before they fall apart. I had a 79'
Datsun B-210 that the steering box rotted away from the chassis
somewhere around 1988 or so. I was going down the road at the time of
failure. I've been skeptical about the build and design of Asian
built cars ever since.

I do own at present a 97' Hyundai Tiburon with approximately 195,000
miles on it that hasn't given very much trouble, but when there is a
problem I have found that it takes a long time to get parts and they
are very expensive compared to domestic parts.

...Ron
--
68'RS Camaro
88'Formula
00'GT Mustang

[dizzy]

I had a 79' Datsun B-210

Too long ago to matter.

[DH]

Post by Mike Hunter
The tend has been down.but GM and Ford still sell more vehicles than all of
Japanese brands combined. The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the
vehicle sold in the US, whether you believe that or not makes no difference
in that fact.
mike hunt

So, with all those sales, how's Ford doing?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/06/business/06ford.html
Ford's Debt Is Lowered Two More Steps
By MICHELINE MAYNARD
Published: January 6, 2006
DEARBORN, Mich., Jan. 5 - Even before Ford Motor introduces the turnaround
plan it is calling The Way Forward, Standard & Poor's clearly thinks that it
may not be.

S.& P. put Ford's debt rating two notches further into junk on Thursday,
less than a month after a similar move at General Motors.


I'll leave GM's prospects to your imagination.

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by dizzy
(top posting corrected)

Post by Mike Hunter
GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture

Also, what's the trend of Ford and GM's market share, "Mike"?

[351CJ]

The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the vehicle sold in the US,
mike hunt

Uhh, Hey Mikey, there are actually only 2 domestic automobile manufactures
left in the US, Daimler Chrysler is a German company... Doh!

[Dave]

Post by Mike Hunter
The tend has been down.but GM and Ford still sell more vehicles than all of
Japanese brands combined. The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the
vehicle sold in the US, whether you believe that or not makes no difference
in that fact.

Thank is true but their share is shrinking every year.

[g***@gmail.com]

A long time ago there was a salesman sent from Japan to USA to
investigate if they could sell them a car they were making in Japan

The telephone connections were not very good

The salesman went to USA and showed some people pictures of the car
then he went on the phone to headquarters and told them to send one car
over and he thought it would be best to put a brandname on the car he
had heard people talk about when he showed the picture "Toy auto"

After the car came over the car sold immediately and the salesguy
phoned back to order another one and the reply at headquarters was "Dat
soon?"

[H***@nospam.nix]

Post by Mike Hunter
What makes you think that? GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined. ;)
mike hunt

Post by H***@nospam.nix
GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy,
and starting with fresh faces and ideas.

Doesn't make a damn what they sell, Mike. They are approaching bankruptcy.
If they lose money on every car, it is hard to make up the difference on
volume.

Financial gurus, banks, etc all predict that bankruptcy is the most likely
outcome
for GM and Ford, and perhaps is their salvation.

[Mike Hunter]

Lots of 'ifs' your post. The naysayers had Chrysler going out of business in
the seventies and Ford in the eighties but they are both still here. LOL


mike hunt

Post by H***@nospam.nix

Post by Mike Hunter
What makes you think that? GM and Ford still sell for more than any

other

Post by Mike Hunter
manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined. ;)
mike hunt

Post by H***@nospam.nix
GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy,
and starting with fresh faces and ideas.

Doesn't make a damn what they sell, Mike. They are approaching bankruptcy.
If they lose money on every car, it is hard to make up the difference on
volume.
Financial gurus, banks, etc all predict that bankruptcy is the most likely
outcome
for GM and Ford, and perhaps is their salvation.

[John Horner]

Post by Mike Hunter
Lots of 'ifs' your post. The naysayers had Chrysler going out of business in
the seventies and Ford in the eighties but they are both still here. LOL

The only reason Chrysler is still around is because the Germans bought
them. If Hyundai buys out GM sometime in the next 10 years (not that I
expect it to happen, but simply as a thought experiment) will you
consider that to mean that GM is "still here"?

As businesses GM and Ford are both in trouble right now.

Do you remember when Sears was the 800 lb. Gorilla of US retailing? It
was not very long ago, and today Sears continues to wander in the
wilderness of great businesses. Sears long time nemesis Montgomery
Ward is completely gone ... even oil company money couldn't save 'em.


John

[351CJ]

Post by John Horner

Post by Mike Hunter
Lots of 'ifs' your post. The naysayers had Chrysler going out of business
in the seventies and Ford in the eighties but they are both still here.
LOL

The only reason Chrysler is still around is because the Germans bought
them. If Hyundai buys out GM sometime in the next 10 years (not that I
expect it to happen, but simply as a thought experiment) will you consider
that to mean that GM is "still here"?
As businesses GM and Ford are both in trouble right now.
Do you remember when Sears was the 800 lb. Gorilla of US retailing? It
was not very long ago, and today Sears continues to wander in the
wilderness of great businesses. Sears long time nemesis Montgomery Ward
is completely gone ... even oil company money couldn't save 'em.
John

You do realize Kmart bought Sears, right?

[SgtSilicon]

Or did Sears buy K-Mart? Or did a 3rd party buy both?

Post by 351CJ

Post by John Horner

Post by Mike Hunter
Lots of 'ifs' your post. The naysayers had Chrysler going out of business
in the seventies and Ford in the eighties but they are both still here.
LOL

The only reason Chrysler is still around is because the Germans bought
them. If Hyundai buys out GM sometime in the next 10 years (not that I
expect it to happen, but simply as a thought experiment) will you consider
that to mean that GM is "still here"?
As businesses GM and Ford are both in trouble right now.
Do you remember when Sears was the 800 lb. Gorilla of US retailing? It
was not very long ago, and today Sears continues to wander in the
wilderness of great businesses. Sears long time nemesis Montgomery Ward
is completely gone ... even oil company money couldn't save 'em.
John

You do realize Kmart bought Sears, right?

[Tom Adkins]

Post by SgtSilicon
Or did Sears buy K-Mart? Or did a 3rd party buy both?

Post by 351CJ

Post by John Horner

Post by Mike Hunter
Lots of 'ifs' your post. The naysayers had Chrysler going out of business
in the seventies and Ford in the eighties but they are both still here.
LOL

The only reason Chrysler is still around is because the Germans bought
them. If Hyundai buys out GM sometime in the next 10 years (not that I
expect it to happen, but simply as a thought experiment) will you consider
that to mean that GM is "still here"?
As businesses GM and Ford are both in trouble right now.
Do you remember when Sears was the 800 lb. Gorilla of US retailing? It
was not very long ago, and today Sears continues to wander in the
wilderness of great businesses. Sears long time nemesis Montgomery Ward
is completely gone ... even oil company money couldn't save 'em.
John

You do realize Kmart bought Sears, right?

Nope, K-Mart bought Sears. Sort of surreal isn't it.

[John Horner]

Post by SgtSilicon
Or did Sears buy K-Mart? Or did a 3rd party buy both?

Well, a third party bought K-Mart out of bankrupcy and then bought
Sears. Then he renamed the whole thing Sears, just to keep it confusing.

John

[Jimbo]

“If you can’t be happy where you are, it’s a cinch you won’t be
happy where you ain’t.”



"351CJ" <***@msn.com> wrote in message news:3lKvf.1131$***@trnddc05...
|
| "John Horner" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:pCGvf.453$***@trnddc01...
| > Mike Hunter wrote:
| >> Lots of 'ifs' your post. The naysayers had Chrysler going out
of business
| >> in the seventies and Ford in the eighties but they are both
still here.
| >> LOL
| >>
| >
| > The only reason Chrysler is still around is because the Germans
bought
| > them. If Hyundai buys out GM sometime in the next 10 years
(not that I
| > expect it to happen, but simply as a thought experiment) will
you consider
| > that to mean that GM is "still here"?
| >
| > As businesses GM and Ford are both in trouble right now.
| >
| > Do you remember when Sears was the 800 lb. Gorilla of US
retailing? It
| > was not very long ago, and today Sears continues to wander in
the
| > wilderness of great businesses. Sears long time nemesis
Montgomery Ward
| > is completely gone ... even oil company money couldn't save 'em.
| >
| >
| > John
|
| You do realize Kmart bought Sears, right?
|
|
Actually, I believe that it was classified as *a merger* with KMart
pulling Sears out of the doldrums. Whatever, they are a couple
now...And, I thought that Chrysler went into the DC merger in great
cash flow shape, and the Germans drained the $$$ in a hurry.

[John Horner]

Post by 351CJ

Post by John Horner
Do you remember when Sears was the 800 lb. Gorilla of US retailing? It
was not very long ago, and today Sears continues to wander in the
wilderness of great businesses. Sears long time nemesis Montgomery Ward
is completely gone ... even oil company money couldn't save 'em.
John

You do realize Kmart bought Sears, right?

Yes I do, and both combined continue to wander in the business
wilderness. What really happened is that a real estate speculator
bought K-mart out of bankrupcy and then bought Sears. Then he renamed
the combined company Sears.

20 years ago Sears was #1 and K-mart was #2, much like GM and Ford. Now
Sears-Kmart is one company and together is still a basket case.

John

[r***@mail.com]

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by H***@nospam.nix
GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy,
and starting with fresh faces and ideas.

What makes you think that? GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined. ;)

And in 1985, Kmart was much larger than Wal-mart, while today it's 80%
smaller.

What reason does GM have to exist? In other words, what can GM do
better than anybody else, other than lobby the U.S. government for a
bailout? Quality is good but not the best. Costs are high (even
excluding health care and pension costs). Hours to produce each
vehicle are high. Car designs are bad (but trucks are good).
Corporate leadership is poor and clueless.

[Oscar_Lives]

Post by r***@mail.com

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by H***@nospam.nix
GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy,
and starting with fresh faces and ideas.

What makes you think that? GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined. ;)

And in 1985, Kmart was much larger than Wal-mart, while today it's 80%
smaller.
What reason does GM have to exist? In other words, what can GM do
better than anybody else, other than lobby the U.S. government for a
bailout? Quality is good but not the best. Costs are high (even
excluding health care and pension costs). Hours to produce each
vehicle are high. Car designs are bad (but trucks are good).

Trucks are shit too. We see 4-year old chevys and GMCs rusted through
around here.

Ever see a Canyon up close? Plain, ugly, crude.

Post by r***@mail.com
Corporate leadership is poor and clueless.

[Charles]

Post by Oscar_Lives

Post by r***@mail.com

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by H***@nospam.nix
GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy,
and starting with fresh faces and ideas.

What makes you think that? GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined. ;)

And in 1985, Kmart was much larger than Wal-mart, while today it's 80%
smaller.
What reason does GM have to exist? In other words, what can GM do
better than anybody else, other than lobby the U.S. government for a
bailout? Quality is good but not the best. Costs are high (even
excluding health care and pension costs). Hours to produce each
vehicle are high. Car designs are bad (but trucks are good).

Trucks are shit too. We see 4-year old chevys and GMCs rusted through
around here.
Ever see a Canyon up close? Plain, ugly, crude.

Post by r***@mail.com
Corporate leadership is poor and clueless.

I owned a 95 S-10. It started rusting on the GAS TANK before I'd had it a
year. Hinge pin on the driver's door, too.

Charles

[Mike Hunter]

You forgot to say in my opinion, since the millions of the folks buying
those millions of GM vehicles today disagree with your assesment. ;)

mike hunt

Post by r***@mail.com

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by H***@nospam.nix
GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy,
and starting with fresh faces and ideas.

What makes you think that? GM and Ford still sell for more than any other
manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined. ;)

And in 1985, Kmart was much larger than Wal-mart, while today it's 80%
smaller.
What reason does GM have to exist? In other words, what can GM do
better than anybody else, other than lobby the U.S. government for a
bailout? Quality is good but not the best. Costs are high (even
excluding health care and pension costs). Hours to produce each
vehicle are high. Car designs are bad (but trucks are good).
Corporate leadership is poor and clueless.

[r***@mail.com]

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by r***@mail.com
What reason does GM have to exist? In other words, what can GM do
better than anybody else, other than lobby the U.S. government for a
bailout? Quality is good but not the best. Costs are high (even
excluding health care and pension costs). Hours to produce each
vehicle are high. Car designs are bad (but trucks are good).
Corporate leadership is poor and clueless.

You forgot to say in my opinion, since the millions of the folks buying
those millions of GM vehicles today disagree with your assesment. ;)

I assume adults know how to distinguish fact (i.e., defect rates, hours
needed to produce each vehicle) from opinion (i.e., GM designs and
executives are bad), and the popularity of any brand of vehicles
doesn't change opnions about it to facts or vice-versa.

[Mike Hunter]

Is that the reason you believe Toyota is in fourth place behind GM, Ford and
Chrysler in the US? Based on the many Toyotas I have owned I believe
Toyota makes great vehicles, but I have found that they are generally over
priced, under powered and no better than any other brand. The reason Toyota
sells the number of vehicles in the US that it does is because buyer buy the
vehicle they believe to be the best for them and their money. Obviously you
buy the brand you buy for the same reason. The fact is more buyer choose GM
over Ford, Ford over Chrysler, Chrysler over Toyota and Toyota over Honda.
Whether you agree with the reasoning of those buyers, or not, that is only
your opinion.

mike hunt

Post by r***@mail.com

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by r***@mail.com
What reason does GM have to exist? In other words, what can GM do
better than anybody else, other than lobby the U.S. government for a
bailout? Quality is good but not the best. Costs are high (even
excluding health care and pension costs). Hours to produce each
vehicle are high. Car designs are bad (but trucks are good).
Corporate leadership is poor and clueless.

You forgot to say in my opinion, since the millions of the folks buying
those millions of GM vehicles today disagree with your assesment. ;)

I assume adults know how to distinguish fact (i.e., defect rates, hours
needed to produce each vehicle) from opinion (i.e., GM designs and
executives are bad), and the popularity of any brand of vehicles
doesn't change opnions about it to facts or vice-versa.

[r***@mail.com]

Post by Mike Hunter
You forgot to say in my opinion, since the millions of the folks buying
those millions of GM vehicles today disagree with your assesment. ;)

Post by r***@mail.com
I assume adults know how to distinguish fact (i.e., defect rates, hours
needed to produce each vehicle) from opinion (i.e., GM designs and
executives are bad), and the popularity of any brand of vehicles
doesn't change opnions about it to facts or vice-versa.

Is that the reason you believe Toyota is in fourth place behind GM, Ford and
Chrysler in the US?

I didn't give a reason just then but just an explanation of fact vs.
opinion and also stated some facts that indicate how GM is inferior.

Post by Mike Hunter
Based on the many Toyotas I have owned I believe Toyota makes great
vehicles, but I have found that they are generally over priced, under
powered and no better than any other brand. The reason Toyota
sells the number of vehicles in the US that it does is because buyer buy the
vehicle they believe to be the best for them and their money.

You said Toyotas are overpriced but that other people feel they're the
best value for the money. Why do you and the other people differ on
this criterion? Is it because the other people feel Toyotas are
superior enough in other respects to make them better values despite
higher price? I actually agree with you that Toyotas cost more than
comparable GM and Ford vehicles.

Post by Mike Hunter
The fact is more buyer choose GM over Ford, Ford over Chrysler,
Chrysler over Toyota and Toyota over Honda. Whether you agree
with the reasoning of those buyers, or not, that is only your opinion.

Defect rates and the hours per vehicle are not opinions but facts, and
GM, Ford, and Chrysler are inferior to Toyota, Honda, and Nissan in
hours and inferior to Toyota and Honda in defect rates. On the other
hand, GM cars being ugly or beautiful or the Honda Civic deserving or
not deserving a "Car of the Year" award are opinions. So are Ford's,
GM's, and Chrysler's beliefs that Toyota and Honda are the best car
makers.

GM has about 15% of the world market, and some time in 2006 so will
Toyota. Show me where GM or Ford is gaining on Toyota, either
worldwide or in North America alone.

[Charge]

I assume mental midgets do not know how to or care to distinguish fact
(i.e., country of ownership, balance of payments for debtor nation (US)
versus non debtor nation (Japan), manufacturer country of origin,
real estate property tax abatement for non domestic manufacturers,
rice steel versus real steel, rice glass versus real glass, when will the
Japanese call in our debt) from opinion (i.e., GM, Ford and Chrysler
designs and executives are bad), and the popularity of any brand of
vehicles doesn't change opinions about it to facts or vice-versa.

[Spike]

Post by Charge
I assume mental midgets do not know how to or care to distinguish fact
(i.e., country of ownership, balance of payments for debtor nation (US)
versus non debtor nation (Japan), manufacturer country of origin,
real estate property tax abatement for non domestic manufacturers,
rice steel versus real steel, rice glass versus real glass, when will the
Japanese call in our debt) from opinion (i.e., GM, Ford and Chrysler
designs and executives are bad), and the popularity of any brand of
vehicles doesn't change opinions about it to facts or vice-versa.

????
--

Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok;
Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich
gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound
audio-video...
See my ride at....
Feb 2004- Loading Image...
Feb 2004- Loading Image...
Jul 2005- Loading Image...
Jul 2005- Loading Image...

[Spam Hater]

Post by Charge
I assume mental midgets do not know how to or care to distinguish fact
(i.e., country of ownership, balance of payments for debtor nation (US)
versus non debtor nation (Japan), manufacturer country of origin,
real estate property tax abatement for non domestic manufacturers,
rice steel versus real steel, rice glass versus real glass, when will the
Japanese call in our debt) from opinion (i.e., GM, Ford and Chrysler
designs and executives are bad), and the popularity of any brand of
vehicles doesn't change opinions about it to facts or vice-versa.

Correction; it's now when will China call in their debt.
China has been supporting the USA deficit for some time by buying USA
treasury bills. Several hundred billion and counting.

[r***@mail.com]

Post by Mike Hunter

Post by r***@mail.com
What reason does GM have to exist? In other words, what can GM do
better than anybody else, other than lobby the U.S. government for a
bailout? Quality is good but not the best. Costs are high (even
excluding health care and pension costs). Hours to produce each
vehicle are high. Car designs are bad (but trucks are good).
Corporate leadership is poor and clueless.

You forgot to say in my opinion, since the millions of the folks buying
those millions of GM vehicles today disagree with your assesment. ;)

I assume people know how to distinguish between fact (failure rates,
costs, labor hours) and opinion (design and leadership are bad), and
the popularity of a brand of vehicles doesn't change facts about it to
opinions or vice-versa..

[Hachiroku]

Post by Built_Well
I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will
improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy.

Who cares? I haven't owned a GM for 25 years, and it was clear to me after I
dumped THAT piece of crap, that I would never own another one.

Heck, I even like my Chryslers better than those hunks of junk!

Post by Built_Well
The latter half of the following Detroit News excerpt is especially
helpful to GM.
Toyota officials say the key to their system is that it taps the
knowledge and insights of their team members.
They also give them a lot of training and responsibility. At Georgetown, or
any Toyota plant, any team member has the power to stop the line by pulling
what is called an "andon" cord. The term "andon" is derived from the
Japanese word for paper lantern.
Once a worker pulls the cord, if the problem is not resolved before the
car reaches the next stage of assembly, the line stops.
"It may hurt productivity, but it improves quality," said Brian
Walters, J.D. Power research director.
Toyota encourages employees to pull the cord, despite the line stoppages, to
expose problems and address them quickly. In Georgetown, workers reach for
their cords 2,500 times a shift, and stoppages amount to 6-8 minutes per
shift.
But, plant manager Convis said, "at Toyota, it's a problem if you run
(the line) at 100 percent. Something isn't adding up, because life
isn't (perfect) like that."
For the past year and a half, andon cords have hung along the assembly
lines at GM's Oshawa plant. But the concept can get muddled in
translation.
"We used to get 17 andon pulls per day," said Rod McVeigh, a supervisor
in the assembly plant. "We're now targeting six a day."
But that might encourage workers to look out less for glitches.
Dennis Pawley, Chrysler's former manufacturing chief and now a consultant
teaching Japanese manufacturing methods, says of the
Big Three: "They don't understand that they don't understand."

[Mike Hunter]

Both GM and Ford assembly workers have quality group meetings and have for
years. In addition they can stop the line as well by simply hitting the
stop button, located at each station. ;)


mike hunt

Post by Built_Well
Toyota officials say the key to their system is that it taps the
knowledge and insights of their team members.
They also give them a lot of training and responsibility. At Georgetown, or
any Toyota plant, any team member has the power to stop the line by pulling
what is called an "andon" cord. The term "andon" is derived from the
Japanese word for paper lantern.
Once a worker pulls the cord, if the problem is not resolved before the
car reaches the next stage of assembly, the line stops.