Discussion:
Assassins question - marron in Italian?
(too old to reply)
Chris
2004-10-02 22:55:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi everybody,
I'm in Assassins and my friend is playing Zangara. He stumbles onstage in
the opening number, yelling "Marron!" and clutching his belly. I know
marron means chestnut/brown in French, and I think it means chestnut in
Italian too, but is there another meaning, a slang word for a derogatory
remark, perhaps? Or did he just eat a bad chestnut and it's disagreeing with
his tummy?

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Chris
Bill
2004-10-02 23:55:11 UTC
Permalink
Chris wrote: << I'm in Assassins and my friend is playing Zangara. He
stumbles onstage in the opening number, yelling "Marron!" and clutching
his belly. I know marron means chestnut/brown in French, and I think it
means chestnut in Italian too, but is there another meaning, a slang
word for a derogatory remark, perhaps? Or did he just eat a bad chestnut
and it's disagreeing with his tummy? >>
................

I assumed he was using an abbreviated version of "Madonna," as we would
use "God" or "Christ" in an extreme situation, such as pain.

Weidman has it spelled "Marron" in the script, but that could just be a
phonetic spelling.

Drumm
Parterrebox
2004-10-03 01:49:06 UTC
Permalink
"Marron" is an oath -- a Sicilian dialect pronunciation of the word "Madonna."
As Drumm noted, it's similar to the way we might say "Gawd!" or "Jeez!"
=============

parterre box
www.parterre.com
JaSoN
2004-10-04 01:59:35 UTC
Permalink
I would at this time like to point you towards the Sopranos Dictionary on
the HBO webpage. http://www.hbo.com/sopranos/mobspeak/index.shtml It covers
this. I believe it means, "Mother of Christ" but I could be Oobatz!


A friend of ours: mob shorthand for introducing one made guy to
another made guy. "A friend of mine" is just another jamook on the street.

A trippa di zianata: "your aunt's tripe."

Action: a bet that a bookie "writes" and for which you pay him his
"vig."

Administration: the top-level "management" of an organized crime
Family-the boss, underboss, and consigliere.

Agita: anxiety, edginess, an upset stomach.

Anti-Trust Violations: what authorities call the mob practice of
carving out exclusive territories. Wiseguys call them "mine."

Associate: one who works with mobsters, but hasn't been asked to take
the vow of Omertá; an almost confirmed, or made guy.







The Books: a phrase indicating membership in the Family. If there is a
possibility for promotion, then the books are open. If not, the books are
closed.

Borgata: an organized crime Family.

Boss: the head of the Family who runs the show. He decides who gets
made and who gets whacked. The boss also gets points from all Family
business; also see don, chairman.

Buon' anima: salutation meaning rest his soul.

Buttlegging: bootlegging untaxed cigarettes.







Cafone: a peasant or lower-class.

Capo: the Family member who leads a crew; short for capodecina.

Cazzis: see Stugots.

Che bruta: How ugly you are.

Che peccato: what a pity, what a shame.

Chiacchierone: chatterbox.

Clip: to murder; also whack, hit, pop, burn, put a contract out.

Code of silence: not ratting on your colleagues once you've been
pinched-no longer a strong virtue in organized crime families. Also see
Omertá.

Col tempo la foglia di gelso diventa seta: old Italian saying meaning,
"Time and patience change the mulberry leaf to satin."

Comare (also goomah, goomar, or gomatta): slang for girlfriend or
mistress. No self-respecting wiseguy is without one.

Come heavy: to walk in carrying a loaded gun. You shouldn't have lunch
with a Russian drug dealer unless you "come heavy."

Confirm: to be made; see made guy.

Consigliere: a trusted Family advisor, who is always consulted before
decisions are made. See Tom Hagen in The Godfather.

Crank: speed; in particular, crystal meth.

Crew: the group of soldiers under the capo's command.

Cugine: a young soldier striving to be made.

CW: FBI shorthand for Co-operating Witness.







Don: the head of the Family; see boss.







Eat alone: to keep for one's self; to be greedy.

Executive Game: a special-event card game for celebrities and other
high-rollers.







Facia bruta: ugly face, something you call someone you don't like.

Family: an organized crime clan, like the Genoveses, the Gottis, or
the Sopranos.

Fanook, or Finook: derived from "finocchio" or fennel, a derogatory
term for homsexual or gay, i.e., people that wiseguys feel nervous around. A
"mezzofinook" is half gay, sissy, bi.

Forbidden Fruit: the lure of a wiseguy to a nice Italian girl from the
neighborhood.







G: a grand; a thousand dollars; also see large.

Gabagool: (capo cuoll) something to eat.

Gira diment: going crazy.

Golden Age: The days before RICO.

Goomah (sometimes pronounced "goomar"): a Mafia mistress; also comare.

Guests of the state or Guests of the government: going to prison,
doing time.







Hit: to murder; also see whack.







In the wind: after you leave the Witness protection program you are
"in the wind," meaning you're on your own somewhere out there.







Jamook: idiot, loser, lamebrained, you know, a jamook.

Juice: the interest paid to a loanshark for the loan; also see vig.







Lam: To lay low, go into hiding.

Large: a thousand, a grand, a G.

LCN: FBI talk for la Cosa Nostra, or translated, "Our Thing."







Made guy: an indoctrinated member of the Family. Essentially, you
pledge your allegiance to the boss and the family for life. To even qualify,
your mother has to be Italian.

Madonn': Madonna, common expression meaning holy smoke, holy cow, holy
shit.

Mannagge: going to war with a rival clan or family.

Message job: placing the bullet in someone's body such that a specific
message is sent to that person's crew or family; see through the eye, and
through the mouth.

Mezza morta: half-dead.

The Mob: a single organized crime family; OR all organized crime
families together.

Mobbed up: connected to the mob.

Mobster: one who is in the mob.

Mock execution: to whip someone into shape by frightening the shit out
of them.

Moe Green Special: Getting killed with a shot in the eye, like the
character, Moe Green, in The Godfather. One form of "sending a message."

Mortadella: derived from the Italian sausage, meaning a loser. As in
"Guy's a fuckin' mortadella."

Mulignan (literal translation): eggplant. Another word for
African-Americans. Also called "mooleys."

Musciata: mushy.







OC: FBI talk for Organized Crime.

Omertá: the much-vaunted Mafia vow of silence. In other words, don't
rat on your friends. Transgression is punishable by death.

Oobatz: u'pazzu-crazy.

Outfit: a clan, or family within the Mafia.







Paying tribute: giving the boss a cut of the deal.

Piacere: "Pleasure to meet you."

Pinched: to get caught by the cops.

Points: percent of income; cut.

Poverett: poor person.

Predicates: an offense which the Justice Department can choose to
"fold into" a RICO statute. As in, "This charge could be tough. It could
have predicates."

The Program: The Witness Protection Program.

Pucchiacha: cunt.

Pump and dump: standard practice for unethical stockbrokers. First
drive up the price of a small stock by "encouraging" investors to buy it
("pump") and then sell you own shares ("dump") for a tidy profit.

Puttana: whore.







Rat: one who snitches or squeals after having been pinched.

RICO: Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. Passed in
1970 to aid the government in clamping down on organized crime activities,
its scope has since been broadened to prosecute insider traders and
anti-abortion protesters.







Schifosa: ugly woman.

Sfogliatelle: an Italian pastry.

Shakedown: to blackmail or try to get money from someone; also to give
someone a scare.

Shy: the interest charged on loans by loansharks.

Shylock business: the business of loansharking.

Soldier: the bottom-level member of an organized crime Family, as in
"foot soldiers."

Spring cleaning: cleaning up, hiding or getting rid of evidence.

Strunz: strunzo-piece of shit.

Stugots: from stu cazzo or u' cazzu, the testicles. Tony Soprano's
boat is The Stugots.







Taste: a percentage of the take. Tony gets a big taste from bookmaking
or racketeering but only a little taste from medical fraud.

Tax: to take a percentage of someone's earnings.

This thing of ours: a mob family, or the entire mob.

Through the eye: a message job through the eye to say "We're watching
you!"

Through the mouth: a message job through the mouth to indicate that
someone WAS a rat.

Tizzun: Neapolitan derogatory term for black person.







Underboss: the second in command to the boss.







Va fa napole: "Go to Naples" (i.e., "Go to hell.").

Vig: the interest paid to a loanshark for the loan. Abbreviation of
vigorish; also see juice. Usually two points or 2%.







Waste management business: euphemism for organized crime.

Wearing it: showing off one's status in the organization by dressing
the part. "Wearing it" usually involves an Italian suit, a pinky ring, a
hankie in the breast pocket, gold cufflinks, and other ornamentation. Silvio
has his own inimitable way of wearing it.

Whack: to murder; also clip, hit, pop, burn, put a contract out.

Wiseguy: a made guy.
Post by Parterrebox
"Marron" is an oath -- a Sicilian dialect pronunciation of the word "Madonna."
As Drumm noted, it's similar to the way we might say "Gawd!" or "Jeez!"
=============
parterre box
www.parterre.com
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fmomoon
2004-10-04 05:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by JaSoN
Va fa napole: "Go to Naples" (i.e., "Go to hell.").
Having lived there, redundant. <g>
--
Moni (fmomoon)
"The truth shall set you free; but first you'll be really p*ssed off!" Bill
Cosby
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-04 05:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by fmomoon
Post by JaSoN
Va fa napole: "Go to Naples" (i.e., "Go to hell.").
Having lived there, redundant. <g>
You think Naples is hell? Oh my. Obviously you've never been to the West Midlands. Spend two hours
in Birmingham New Street station on a wet night in January waiting for a delayed train, and then
tell me anywhere on the Mediterranean is hell! <g>
--
Stephen


Is sitting there and drinking soda some kind of a Zen non-answer?
fmomoon
2004-10-04 07:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Post by JaSoN
Va fa napole: "Go to Naples" (i.e., "Go to hell.").
Having lived there, redundant. <g>
You think Naples is hell? Oh my. Obviously you've never been to the West
Midlands. Spend two hours
Post by Stephen Farrow
in Birmingham New Street station on a wet night in January waiting for a
delayed train, and then
Post by Stephen Farrow
tell me anywhere on the Mediterranean is hell! <g>
You probably have a point. :) I've only been a few places in England, but
at least I speak the language (sort of) there, so I don't get confused so
easily. In Naples, they believe in driving very fast anywhere on the
freeway they like. The lane dividers are just a suggestion, mind you. Turn
signals mean that either a) someone hit it by accident or b) they want you
to pass them. Stop signs are for foreigners. The streets are horribly
crowded, the city is dirty and, many times, the people are extremely rude.
The weather in August is enough to make you long for the cool of mere fire.
The Italian I learned before I lived there was of the northern, slower
speaking and more musical dialect (I went there hoping that my art song
Italian would get me started). Naples, where they speak very fast and use a
dialect very different from what I was used to, completely mystified me. I
traveled enough by train in England to know that the train stations seem to
be pretty civil and understandable. In Naples, you clutch your purse in
fear and hope for the best. I learned quickly to swear with the best of
them and look much more imposing than I am. On my last visit (my daughter
was stationed there at that point), I had the good luck to make friends with
her landlord who took me under his wing and, with his family, showed me
another side of Naples which was quite beautiful. It wasn't until much
later that I learned he was the local Don. :) I didn't care. He saw that a
short, red-haired woman with a smattering of Italian was out of her league
and took pity. For that, he had my thanks. Plus, they took me down the
Amalfi coast! Wow!

There is much in Italy I love, just not Naples.
--
Moni (fmomoon)
"The truth shall set you free; but first you'll be really p*ssed off!" Bill
Cosby
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-04 11:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Post by JaSoN
Va fa napole: "Go to Naples" (i.e., "Go to hell.").
Having lived there, redundant. <g>
You think Naples is hell? Oh my. Obviously you've never been to the West
Midlands. Spend two hours
Post by Stephen Farrow
in Birmingham New Street station on a wet night in January waiting for a
delayed train, and then
Post by Stephen Farrow
tell me anywhere on the Mediterranean is hell! <g>
You probably have a point. :) I've only been a few places in England, but
at least I speak the language (sort of) there, so I don't get confused so
easily.
You might get confused in Birmingham - the Brummie accent is *horrible*. It's pretty much the
ugliest of Britain's regional accents (though to be fair Glaswegian and Geordie are more
impenetrable).
Post by Stephen Farrow
In Naples, they believe in driving very fast anywhere on the
freeway they like. The lane dividers are just a suggestion, mind you. Turn
signals mean that either a) someone hit it by accident or b) they want you
to pass them. Stop signs are for foreigners.
Yes - southern Europe is full of places where drivers see stop signs and pedestrian crossings as a
challenge rather than an instruction.
Post by Stephen Farrow
The streets are horribly
crowded, the city is dirty and, many times, the people are extremely rude.
The weather in August is enough to make you long for the cool of mere fire.
The Italian I learned before I lived there was of the northern, slower
speaking and more musical dialect (I went there hoping that my art song
Italian would get me started). Naples, where they speak very fast and use a
dialect very different from what I was used to, completely mystified me.
Not a problem I had - but then I don't speak Italian at all, so that makes no difference to me. It's
just another place in Europe where I need to keep a very well-thumbed phrase book (which, for me, is
basically everywhere outside France and Spain). Though I always, wherever I go, make an attempt to
get by in the local language as much as possible, however little of it I know (I've joked before
that in a pinch you can get by in any language with ten words - the numbers from one to five, and
please, thank-you, yes, no and toilet).
Post by Stephen Farrow
I
traveled enough by train in England to know that the train stations seem to
be pretty civil and understandable.
Probably true compared to some places (rail travel in the UK is certainly an easier experience than
rail travel in the USA, for a start), but less true now than it was ten years ago, thanks to the
colossal clusterf*ck that *is* the privatized railway system. The stations themselves aren't too
bad, usually, though there are a couple I use fairly regularly when I'm home that are, shall we say,
less than delightful - but then Oldham Mumps, the closest station to my mother's house, isn't
somewhere you'd be likely to find yourself as a visitor to Britain, and neither are Loughborough
Junction or Brixton in south London. The *real* nightmare is the ticketing system, which becomes
very, very difficult to negotiate as soon as you start trying to make any journey involving the
services of more than one train operating company.
Post by Stephen Farrow
In Naples, you clutch your purse in
fear and hope for the best. I learned quickly to swear with the best of
them and look much more imposing than I am. On my last visit (my daughter
was stationed there at that point), I had the good luck to make friends with
her landlord who took me under his wing and, with his family, showed me
another side of Naples which was quite beautiful. It wasn't until much
later that I learned he was the local Don. :) I didn't care. He saw that a
short, red-haired woman with a smattering of Italian was out of her league
and took pity. For that, he had my thanks. Plus, they took me down the
Amalfi coast! Wow!
See, that's why Naples *can't* be synonymous with hell. It's close to the Amalfi coast, which is
gorgeous.

Birmingham, on the other hand, is close to Wolverhampton, Walsall and Coventry.
--
Stephen


Did you try looking inside the sofa in hell?
fmomoon
2004-10-05 00:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrow
You might get confused in Birmingham - the Brummie accent is *horrible*. It's pretty much the
ugliest of Britain's regional accents (though to be fair Glaswegian and Geordie are more
impenetrable).
Ah, but I know "teenagerese," which is a language only spoken by them and,
even then, never in complete sentences. I can translate with the best of
them.
Post by Stephen Farrow
Yes - southern Europe is full of places where drivers see stop signs and
pedestrian crossings as a
Post by Stephen Farrow
challenge rather than an instruction.
Does make it a bit of a risk, doesn't it? The only time I rode a moped, I
discovered that sidewalks are where the mopeds go to feel safer.
Post by Stephen Farrow
Not a problem I had - but then I don't speak Italian at all, so that makes
no difference to me. It's
Post by Stephen Farrow
just another place in Europe where I need to keep a very well-thumbed
phrase book (which, for me, is
Post by Stephen Farrow
basically everywhere outside France and Spain). Though I always, wherever
I go, make an attempt to
Post by Stephen Farrow
get by in the local language as much as possible, however little of it I
know (I've joked before
Post by Stephen Farrow
that in a pinch you can get by in any language with ten words - the
numbers from one to five, and
Post by Stephen Farrow
please, thank-you, yes, no and toilet).
Good point. Being a native Californian, I grew up speaking some Spanish
which helped me in Italy. Of course, I still get my Italian and my Spanish
words mixed up. Hence, I speak Spantalian. Forget French. I don't even
think the French speak French, according to the Parisians.
Post by Stephen Farrow
Probably true compared to some places (rail travel in the UK is certainly
an easier experience than
Post by Stephen Farrow
rail travel in the USA, for a start), but less true now than it was ten
years ago, thanks to the
Post by Stephen Farrow
colossal clusterf*ck that *is* the privatized railway system. The stations
themselves aren't too
Post by Stephen Farrow
bad, usually, though there are a couple I use fairly regularly when I'm
home that are, shall we say,
Post by Stephen Farrow
less than delightful - but then Oldham Mumps, the closest station to my mother's house, isn't
somewhere you'd be likely to find yourself as a visitor to Britain, and
neither are Loughborough
Post by Stephen Farrow
Junction or Brixton in south London. The *real* nightmare is the ticketing
system, which becomes
Post by Stephen Farrow
very, very difficult to negotiate as soon as you start trying to make any
journey involving the
Post by Stephen Farrow
services of more than one train operating company.
I do remember that ticketing system as being incomprehensible. A sweet,
older man took pity on me and helped me figure it out. It even confused
him. :)
Post by Stephen Farrow
See, that's why Naples *can't* be synonymous with hell. It's close to the
Amalfi coast, which is
Post by Stephen Farrow
gorgeous.
Right. Of course, driving the Amalfi is the Fear Factor personified. :)
Post by Stephen Farrow
Birmingham, on the other hand, is close to Wolverhampton, Walsall and Coventry.
<giggle> That's okay. San Francisco, one of the most beautiful cities in
the world is next to Oakland, so I do understand. I was born in Oakland and
I still think the city is ugly. :)
--
Moni (fmomoon)
"The truth shall set you free; but first you'll be really p*ssed off!" Bill
Cosby
Post by Stephen Farrow
--
Stephen
Did you try looking inside the sofa in hell?
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-05 03:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
You might get confused in Birmingham - the Brummie accent is *horrible*.
It's pretty much the
Post by Stephen Farrow
ugliest of Britain's regional accents (though to be fair Glaswegian and
Geordie are more
Post by Stephen Farrow
impenetrable).
Ah, but I know "teenagerese," which is a language only spoken by them and,
even then, never in complete sentences. I can translate with the best of
them.
Post by Stephen Farrow
Yes - southern Europe is full of places where drivers see stop signs and
pedestrian crossings as a
Post by Stephen Farrow
challenge rather than an instruction.
Does make it a bit of a risk, doesn't it? The only time I rode a moped, I
discovered that sidewalks are where the mopeds go to feel safer.
Post by Stephen Farrow
Not a problem I had - but then I don't speak Italian at all, so that makes
no difference to me. It's
Post by Stephen Farrow
just another place in Europe where I need to keep a very well-thumbed
phrase book (which, for me, is
Post by Stephen Farrow
basically everywhere outside France and Spain). Though I always, wherever
I go, make an attempt to
Post by Stephen Farrow
get by in the local language as much as possible, however little of it I
know (I've joked before
Post by Stephen Farrow
that in a pinch you can get by in any language with ten words - the
numbers from one to five, and
Post by Stephen Farrow
please, thank-you, yes, no and toilet).
Good point. Being a native Californian, I grew up speaking some Spanish
which helped me in Italy. Of course, I still get my Italian and my Spanish
words mixed up. Hence, I speak Spantalian. Forget French. I don't even
think the French speak French, according to the Parisians.
Post by Stephen Farrow
Probably true compared to some places (rail travel in the UK is certainly
an easier experience than
Post by Stephen Farrow
rail travel in the USA, for a start), but less true now than it was ten
years ago, thanks to the
Post by Stephen Farrow
colossal clusterf*ck that *is* the privatized railway system. The stations
themselves aren't too
Post by Stephen Farrow
bad, usually, though there are a couple I use fairly regularly when I'm
home that are, shall we say,
Post by Stephen Farrow
less than delightful - but then Oldham Mumps, the closest station to my
mother's house, isn't
Post by Stephen Farrow
somewhere you'd be likely to find yourself as a visitor to Britain, and
neither are Loughborough
Post by Stephen Farrow
Junction or Brixton in south London. The *real* nightmare is the ticketing
system, which becomes
Post by Stephen Farrow
very, very difficult to negotiate as soon as you start trying to make any
journey involving the
Post by Stephen Farrow
services of more than one train operating company.
I do remember that ticketing system as being incomprehensible. A sweet,
older man took pity on me and helped me figure it out. It even confused
him. :)
Post by Stephen Farrow
See, that's why Naples *can't* be synonymous with hell. It's close to the
Amalfi coast, which is
Post by Stephen Farrow
gorgeous.
Right. Of course, driving the Amalfi is the Fear Factor personified. :)
Post by Stephen Farrow
Birmingham, on the other hand, is close to Wolverhampton, Walsall and
Coventry.
<giggle> That's okay. San Francisco, one of the most beautiful cities in
the world is next to Oakland, so I do understand. I was born in Oakland and
I still think the city is ugly. :)
Next to Wolverhampton, Oakland is paradise on earth.
--
Stephen


This is a time of celebration. So sit still and be quiet. Spit out that gum.
fmomoon
2004-10-06 00:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
<giggle> That's okay. San Francisco, one of the most beautiful cities in
the world is next to Oakland, so I do understand. I was born in Oakland and
I still think the city is ugly. :)
Next to Wolverhampton, Oakland is paradise on earth.
Yikes!
--
Moni (fmomoon)
"The truth shall set you free; but first you'll be really p*ssed off!" Bill
Cosby
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-06 04:53:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by fmomoon
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
<giggle> That's okay. San Francisco, one of the most beautiful cities
in
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
the world is next to Oakland, so I do understand. I was born in Oakland
and
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
I still think the city is ugly. :)
Next to Wolverhampton, Oakland is paradise on earth.
Yikes!
Wolverhampton is the centre of a region of Britain known as the Black Country - because the mills
and foundries pumped out so much soot that all the buildings turned black.
--
Stephen


You sit in your seat, you eat your peanuts, you watch the movie...
Well, unless it's about a dog or Chevy Chase.
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-05 03:59:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
You might get confused in Birmingham - the Brummie accent is *horrible*.
It's pretty much the
Post by Stephen Farrow
ugliest of Britain's regional accents (though to be fair Glaswegian and
Geordie are more
Post by Stephen Farrow
impenetrable).
Ah, but I know "teenagerese," which is a language only spoken by them and,
even then, never in complete sentences. I can translate with the best of
them.
Post by Stephen Farrow
Yes - southern Europe is full of places where drivers see stop signs and
pedestrian crossings as a
Post by Stephen Farrow
challenge rather than an instruction.
Does make it a bit of a risk, doesn't it? The only time I rode a moped, I
discovered that sidewalks are where the mopeds go to feel safer.
Italians are like the Spanish and the Maltese. They don't drive on the left or the right. They drive
in the shade.
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
Not a problem I had - but then I don't speak Italian at all, so that makes
no difference to me. It's
Post by Stephen Farrow
just another place in Europe where I need to keep a very well-thumbed
phrase book (which, for me, is
Post by Stephen Farrow
basically everywhere outside France and Spain). Though I always, wherever
I go, make an attempt to
Post by Stephen Farrow
get by in the local language as much as possible, however little of it I
know (I've joked before
Post by Stephen Farrow
that in a pinch you can get by in any language with ten words - the
numbers from one to five, and
Post by Stephen Farrow
please, thank-you, yes, no and toilet).
Good point. Being a native Californian, I grew up speaking some Spanish
which helped me in Italy. Of course, I still get my Italian and my Spanish
words mixed up. Hence, I speak Spantalian. Forget French. I don't even
think the French speak French, according to the Parisians.
Ha! Since I moved here, I've become somewhat used to Quebecois French (via the TV - I get a few
Francophone channels, and via semi-regular trips to Montreal and Quebec City) - which the French
seem to think is more or less entirely a different language.

I can get by in French, though I'm not fluent (I took French for 7 years in school); that means that
I can pretty much get whatever goods/services I want, but I'm not necessarily absolutely
grammatically correct. I can watch French TV, read a French newspaper or book, and while I maybe
won't get every word, I can get enough to understand whatever I'm reading/watching.

What got me really confused, though, was the experience of going out one evening in Montreal with a
bunch of friends and friends-of-friends. The group was about 50-50 Francophone and Anglophone, but
Montreal is a bilingual (rather than French-speaking) city, so everybody spoke both languages -
which meant that the evening's conversation was conducted in both languages, with people switching
between French and English at the drop of the hat, sometimes in the middle of a sentence or in an
aside to make sure everyone understood what was being said. While my French is less than fluent, it
would have been a *much* less confusing evening if we'd all just picked one language - either
language, I'm not fussy (as I said, I can make myself understood in French, I just maybe don't get
the grammar perfectly correct and there are odd words here and there where I'll have to
explain/describe what I mean because I don't know the exact noun) and gone with it.
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
Probably true compared to some places (rail travel in the UK is certainly
an easier experience than
Post by Stephen Farrow
rail travel in the USA, for a start), but less true now than it was ten
years ago, thanks to the
Post by Stephen Farrow
colossal clusterf*ck that *is* the privatized railway system. The stations
themselves aren't too
Post by Stephen Farrow
bad, usually, though there are a couple I use fairly regularly when I'm
home that are, shall we say,
Post by Stephen Farrow
less than delightful - but then Oldham Mumps, the closest station to my
mother's house, isn't
Post by Stephen Farrow
somewhere you'd be likely to find yourself as a visitor to Britain, and
neither are Loughborough
Post by Stephen Farrow
Junction or Brixton in south London. The *real* nightmare is the ticketing
system, which becomes
Post by Stephen Farrow
very, very difficult to negotiate as soon as you start trying to make any
journey involving the
Post by Stephen Farrow
services of more than one train operating company.
I do remember that ticketing system as being incomprehensible. A sweet,
older man took pity on me and helped me figure it out. It even confused
him. :)
It confuses everybody, including station staff, particularly at minor stations. The web interfaces
that are available are also less than perfect - there are some (usually cheaper) fares on routes on
which multiple TOCs compete that don't always show up because they are exclusive to one operating
company (they might be available via that one company's website, but they don't show up on the
National Rail sites). When I'm home, if I need to book an advance purchase ticket for a complex
journey, I'll go to the main travel centre at Manchester Piccadilly station, despite the fact that
there are four stations closer to my mother's house that should in theory be able to handle
ticketing across the network - it's easier to go into the city centre and deal with staff who handle
those tickets regularly than to try and get local station staff to try and figure out the
ridiculously convoluted fare rules. It's pretty much an unmitigated disaster - though long-distance
rail travel in Britain can be very inexpensive if you can get to grips with the ticketing system (it
doesn't help, either, that Virgin - the main long-distance operator running out of Manchester - has
a dreadful website that is not at all friendly either to older browsers or to dialup connections).
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
See, that's why Naples *can't* be synonymous with hell. It's close to the
Amalfi coast, which is
Post by Stephen Farrow
gorgeous.
Right. Of course, driving the Amalfi is the Fear Factor personified. :)
So's the Bull Ring, though maybe not for the same reasons.
--
Stephen


What's the fun of becoming an immortal demon if you're not regular, am I right?
fmomoon
2004-10-06 00:06:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Does make it a bit of a risk, doesn't it? The only time I rode a moped, I
discovered that sidewalks are where the mopeds go to feel safer.
Italians are like the Spanish and the Maltese. They don't drive on the
left or the right. They drive
Post by Stephen Farrow
in the shade.
Oh, I like this one. Mind if I borrow it to use on some Italian friends? I
know they'll agree. :)
Post by Stephen Farrow
Ha! Since I moved here, I've become somewhat used to Quebecois French (via
the TV - I get a few
Post by Stephen Farrow
Francophone channels, and via semi-regular trips to Montreal and Quebec
City) - which the French
Post by Stephen Farrow
seem to think is more or less entirely a different language.
I can get by in French, though I'm not fluent (I took French for 7 years
in school); that means that
Post by Stephen Farrow
I can pretty much get whatever goods/services I want, but I'm not necessarily absolutely
grammatically correct. I can watch French TV, read a French newspaper or
book, and while I maybe
Post by Stephen Farrow
won't get every word, I can get enough to understand whatever I'm reading/watching.
What got me really confused, though, was the experience of going out one
evening in Montreal with a
Post by Stephen Farrow
bunch of friends and friends-of-friends. The group was about 50-50
Francophone and Anglophone, but
Post by Stephen Farrow
Montreal is a bilingual (rather than French-speaking) city, so everybody
spoke both languages -
Post by Stephen Farrow
which meant that the evening's conversation was conducted in both
languages, with people switching
Post by Stephen Farrow
between French and English at the drop of the hat, sometimes in the middle
of a sentence or in an
Post by Stephen Farrow
aside to make sure everyone understood what was being said. While my
French is less than fluent, it
Post by Stephen Farrow
would have been a *much* less confusing evening if we'd all just picked one language - either
language, I'm not fussy (as I said, I can make myself understood in
French, I just maybe don't get
Post by Stephen Farrow
the grammar perfectly correct and there are odd words here and there where I'll have to
explain/describe what I mean because I don't know the exact noun) and gone with it.
I'd find myself resorting to Marcel Marceau immitations. :)
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Right. Of course, driving the Amalfi is the Fear Factor personified. :)
So's the Bull Ring, though maybe not for the same reasons.
Actually, bulls and drivers coming from the other direction have much in
common. Only in the ring, it's almost always the bull that loses. :)
--
Moni (fmomoon)
"The truth shall set you free; but first you'll be really p*ssed off!" Bill
Cosby
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-06 04:55:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by fmomoon
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Right. Of course, driving the Amalfi is the Fear Factor personified. :)
So's the Bull Ring, though maybe not for the same reasons.
Actually, bulls and drivers coming from the other direction have much in
common. Only in the ring, it's almost always the bull that loses. :)
Ha! The Bull Ring is a shopping mall in the centre of Birmingham.
--
Stephen


Couldn't we at least have gotten a lair with a view?
fmomoon
2004-10-07 07:35:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Right. Of course, driving the Amalfi is the Fear Factor
personified. :)
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Post by Stephen Farrow
So's the Bull Ring, though maybe not for the same reasons.
Actually, bulls and drivers coming from the other direction have much in
common. Only in the ring, it's almost always the bull that loses. :)
Ha! The Bull Ring is a shopping mall in the centre of Birmingham.
Oh, I just thought it was some Hemmingway thing. LOL
--
Moni (fmomoon)
"The truth shall set you free; but first you'll be really p*ssed off!" Bill
Cosby
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-07 07:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by fmomoon
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Right. Of course, driving the Amalfi is the Fear Factor
personified. :)
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Post by Stephen Farrow
So's the Bull Ring, though maybe not for the same reasons.
Actually, bulls and drivers coming from the other direction have much in
common. Only in the ring, it's almost always the bull that loses. :)
Ha! The Bull Ring is a shopping mall in the centre of Birmingham.
Oh, I just thought it was some Hemmingway thing. LOL
In Birmingham? Um... no.

The Bull Ring *was*, until recently, a hideously ugly 60s shopping precinct. In the past few years
it's received a major overhaul, and it's now home to one of the most bizarre pieces of contemporary
architecture in the British Isles - the Birmingham branch of Selfridges department store:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/your_birmingham/bullring/gallery2/8.shtml
Loading Image...

As I said, bizarre.
--
Stephen


We could grind our enemies into talcum powder with a sledgehammer,
but gosh, we did that last night.
fmomoon
2004-10-09 08:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Stephen Farrow <***@chass.utoronto.ca> wrote in message news:***@chass.utoronto.ca...
m.
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Oh, I just thought it was some Hemmingway thing. LOL
In Birmingham? Um... no.
The Bull Ring *was*, until recently, a hideously ugly 60s shopping
precinct. In the past few years
Post by Stephen Farrow
it's received a major overhaul, and it's now home to one of the most
bizarre pieces of contemporary
Post by Stephen Farrow
http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/your_birmingham/bullring/gallery2/8.shtml
http://www.lookingatbuildings.org.uk/img_hr/Brm_Selfridges.jpg
As I said, bizarre.
It looks like some chain mail thing. :)
--
Moni (fmomoon)
"The truth shall set you free; but first you'll be really p*ssed off!" Bill
Cosby
UllaBelts
2004-10-17 12:42:15 UTC
Permalink
Stephen showed us:

<< The Bull Ring *was*, until recently, a hideously ugly 60s shopping precinct.
In the past few years
it's received a major overhaul, and it's now home to one of the most bizarre
pieces of contemporary
architecture in the British Isles - the Birmingham branch of Selfridges
department store:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/your_birmingham/bullring/gallery2/8.shtml
http://www.lookingatbuildings.org.uk/img_hr/Brm_Selfridges.jpg

As I said, bizarre.
--
Stephen


We could grind our enemies into talcum powder with a sledgehammer,
but gosh, we did that last night.
<BR><BR>
Looks like mail or sewer covers welded together. (Codpiece for a jouster,
maybe?) Ugly, by any standards.

But I confess to being intrigued by the Lloyds building in London - with the
services on the outside and....designed by Richard Rogers.

http://www.photoconnect.net/aapic/ThumbPage_100438.php
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-17 21:44:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by UllaBelts
<< The Bull Ring *was*, until recently, a hideously ugly 60s shopping precinct.
In the past few years
it's received a major overhaul, and it's now home to one of the most bizarre
pieces of contemporary
http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/your_birmingham/bullring/gallery2/8.shtml
http://www.lookingatbuildings.org.uk/img_hr/Brm_Selfridges.jpg
As I said, bizarre.
--
Stephen
We could grind our enemies into talcum powder with a sledgehammer,
but gosh, we did that last night.
<BR><BR>
Looks like mail or sewer covers welded together. (Codpiece for a jouster,
maybe?) Ugly, by any standards.
But still a vast improvement on what was there before!
Post by UllaBelts
But I confess to being intrigued by the Lloyds building in London - with the
services on the outside and....designed by Richard Rogers.
http://www.photoconnect.net/aapic/ThumbPage_100438.php
I quite like the Lloyds building.

Of course, its position as the oddest piece of contemporary architecture in the City has recently
been usurped by 30 St. Mary Axe - the SwissRe Tower - which is known colloquially as the Gherkin. It
looks for all the world like a giant vibrator:

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=294475
--
Stephen


We did a whole duet about duelling mushrooms.
Matthew Winn
2004-10-04 17:14:02 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 01:38:00 -0400, Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
You think Naples is hell? Oh my. Obviously you've never been to the West Midlands. Spend two hours
in Birmingham New Street station on a wet night in January waiting for a delayed train, and then
tell me anywhere on the Mediterranean is hell! <g>
Try changing trains at Milton Keynes Central, which appears to have
been designed by someone familiar with Birmingham New Street but who
thought "Well, New Street has the right run down, grubby and seedy
feel but there's no muzak and it's just not wet, windy and cold
enough".
--
Matthew
[If replying by mail remove the "r" from "urk"]
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-04 21:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Winn
On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 01:38:00 -0400, Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
You think Naples is hell? Oh my. Obviously you've never been to the West Midlands. Spend two hours
in Birmingham New Street station on a wet night in January waiting for a delayed train, and then
tell me anywhere on the Mediterranean is hell! <g>
Try changing trains at Milton Keynes Central, which appears to have
been designed by someone familiar with Birmingham New Street but who
thought "Well, New Street has the right run down, grubby and seedy
feel but there's no muzak and it's just not wet, windy and cold
enough".
I've done it. I still think it's less horrible than Birmingham New Street. Nearly everywhere is less
horrible than Birmingham New Street.
--
Stephen


Oh, I'm sorry. Is that an offensive term? Should I say 'Undead American'?
Matthew Winn
2004-10-06 17:07:45 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:32:55 -0400, Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by Matthew Winn
On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 01:38:00 -0400, Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
You think Naples is hell? Oh my. Obviously you've never been to the West Midlands. Spend two hours
in Birmingham New Street station on a wet night in January waiting for a delayed train, and then
tell me anywhere on the Mediterranean is hell! <g>
Try changing trains at Milton Keynes Central, which appears to have
been designed by someone familiar with Birmingham New Street but who
thought "Well, New Street has the right run down, grubby and seedy
feel but there's no muzak and it's just not wet, windy and cold
enough".
I've done it. I still think it's less horrible than Birmingham New Street. Nearly everywhere is less
horrible than Birmingham New Street.
But at least at Birmingham New Street the shops are open and are
accessible from the platforms, and when you go into the toilets you
don't have to paddle, and the toilets are actually open more than a
couple of days a month, and there's not a bloody TV screen on every
platform endlessly showing safety announcements, advertisements, or
the sort of popular music artists who think they're having a good week
when their CD sales are high enough to justify the use of the plural.

The sole good point about Milton Keynes Central is that the toilets
are free, though I suspect that's only because the staff don't dare
go near them.
Post by Stephen Farrow
Arriving in Birmingham is never good.
But it does give you the opportunity to look forward to the joyful
experience that leaving Birmingham offers.
--
Matthew
[If replying by mail remove the "r" from "urk"]
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-07 06:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Winn
On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:32:55 -0400, Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by Matthew Winn
On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 01:38:00 -0400, Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
You think Naples is hell? Oh my. Obviously you've never been to the West Midlands. Spend two hours
in Birmingham New Street station on a wet night in January waiting for a delayed train, and then
tell me anywhere on the Mediterranean is hell! <g>
Try changing trains at Milton Keynes Central, which appears to have
been designed by someone familiar with Birmingham New Street but who
thought "Well, New Street has the right run down, grubby and seedy
feel but there's no muzak and it's just not wet, windy and cold
enough".
I've done it. I still think it's less horrible than Birmingham New Street. Nearly everywhere is less
horrible than Birmingham New Street.
But at least at Birmingham New Street the shops are open and are
accessible from the platforms, and when you go into the toilets you
don't have to paddle, and the toilets are actually open more than a
couple of days a month, and there's not a bloody TV screen on every
platform endlessly showing safety announcements, advertisements, or
the sort of popular music artists who think they're having a good week
when their CD sales are high enough to justify the use of the plural.
The sole good point about Milton Keynes Central is that the toilets
are free, though I suspect that's only because the staff don't dare
go near them.
You may be right; I've never actually used the toilets at Milton Keynes Central (though I would hope
that they couldn't be any more revolting than the toilets at Manchester Victoria).
Post by Matthew Winn
Post by Stephen Farrow
Arriving in Birmingham is never good.
But it does give you the opportunity to look forward to the joyful
experience that leaving Birmingham offers.
This is true. Leaving Birmingham, whether by car, rail, bus or air, is always a delight.
--
Stephen


You know? Recapture your godhood and unleash Armageddon, and all of a sudden
everyone wants to be a part of the inner circle.
fmomoon
2004-10-05 00:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Winn
On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 01:38:00 -0400, Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
You think Naples is hell? Oh my. Obviously you've never been to the West
Midlands. Spend two hours
Post by Matthew Winn
Post by Stephen Farrow
in Birmingham New Street station on a wet night in January waiting for a
delayed train, and then
Post by Matthew Winn
Post by Stephen Farrow
tell me anywhere on the Mediterranean is hell! <g>
Try changing trains at Milton Keynes Central, which appears to have
been designed by someone familiar with Birmingham New Street but who
thought "Well, New Street has the right run down, grubby and seedy
feel but there's no muzak and it's just not wet, windy and cold
enough".
Try taking BART (our tube system) and stepping over all the passed out,
lovely winos as you exit into San Francisco. Ah yes, lovely.
--
Moni (fmomoon)
"The truth shall set you free; but first you'll be really p*ssed off!" Bill
Cosby
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-05 03:38:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by Matthew Winn
On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 01:38:00 -0400, Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
You think Naples is hell? Oh my. Obviously you've never been to the West
Midlands. Spend two hours
Post by Matthew Winn
Post by Stephen Farrow
in Birmingham New Street station on a wet night in January waiting for a
delayed train, and then
Post by Matthew Winn
Post by Stephen Farrow
tell me anywhere on the Mediterranean is hell! <g>
Try changing trains at Milton Keynes Central, which appears to have
been designed by someone familiar with Birmingham New Street but who
thought "Well, New Street has the right run down, grubby and seedy
feel but there's no muzak and it's just not wet, windy and cold
enough".
Try taking BART (our tube system) and stepping over all the passed out,
lovely winos as you exit into San Francisco. Ah yes, lovely.
Though there are other compensations. I'll probably be in San Francisco for a conference next July,
and I'm looking forward to it.
--
Stephen


Is there going to be an intermission in this?
fmomoon
2004-10-06 00:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Try taking BART (our tube system) and stepping over all the passed out,
lovely winos as you exit into San Francisco. Ah yes, lovely.
Though there are other compensations. I'll probably be in San Francisco
for a conference next July,
Post by Stephen Farrow
and I'm looking forward to it.
Keep in touch. I'd love to meet some folks from this august group.
--
Moni (fmomoon)
"The truth shall set you free; but first you'll be really p*ssed off!" Bill
Cosby
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-06 04:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by Stephen Farrow
Post by fmomoon
Try taking BART (our tube system) and stepping over all the passed out,
lovely winos as you exit into San Francisco. Ah yes, lovely.
Though there are other compensations. I'll probably be in San Francisco
for a conference next July,
Post by Stephen Farrow
and I'm looking forward to it.
Keep in touch. I'd love to meet some folks from this august group.
Sure. I like meeting people from this group as well (and I've met a few on conference trips over the
past couple of years).
--
Stephen


Loose cannon. Rock the boat. Is that a mixed metaphor? Boats did have cannons.
And a loose one would cause it to rock.
Tim Gowen
2004-10-04 19:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Farrow
You think Naples is hell? Oh my. Obviously you've never been to the West
Midlands. Spend two hours in Birmingham New Street station on a wet night
in January waiting for a delayed train, and then tell me anywhere on the
Mediterranean is hell! <g>
Well, the new Pendalino trains are fab, so at least that's a fairly
recent consolation. If Pearl from Starlight Express was really a
carriage, she'd be that. How sad am I? :-)


Tim
--
Tim Gowen
Stephen Farrow
2004-10-04 21:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Gowen
Post by Stephen Farrow
You think Naples is hell? Oh my. Obviously you've never been to the West
Midlands. Spend two hours in Birmingham New Street station on a wet night
in January waiting for a delayed train, and then tell me anywhere on the
Mediterranean is hell! <g>
Well, the new Pendalino trains are fab, so at least that's a fairly
recent consolation. If Pearl from Starlight Express was really a
carriage, she'd be that. How sad am I? :-)
No sadder than I am.

The new Pendolinos are indeed a huge improvement - I used one last January - but arriving on a shiny
new train doesn't do much to mitigate the awful fact that you've arrived in Birmingham.

Arriving in Birmingham is never good.
--
Stephen


We're drawing up a plan for world domination. The key element? Coffeemakers that think.
A Tsar Is Born
2004-10-07 18:55:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by fmomoon
Post by JaSoN
Va fa napole: "Go to Naples" (i.e., "Go to hell.").
Having lived there, redundant. <g>
A friend of mine was touring Russia in a guided group c. 1980. The
guide was a young, charming, brainy female, and they had many chats
about uncontroversial subjects. She told him she'd once led a very
strictly guided tour of Russians to the west -- to Naples. She asked
him, "Is the rest of the West as rich as Naples is?"

He couldn't think of a thing to say.

Jean Coeur de Lapin

"not the sun but maybe one of its beams"
PTRAVEL
2004-10-07 19:14:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Tsar Is Born
Jean Coeur de Lapin
"Heart of Rabbit"? Really?
Post by A Tsar Is Born
"not the sun but maybe one of its beams"
fmomoon
2004-10-09 08:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Tsar Is Born
Post by fmomoon
Post by JaSoN
Va fa napole: "Go to Naples" (i.e., "Go to hell.").
Having lived there, redundant. <g>
A friend of mine was touring Russia in a guided group c. 1980. The
guide was a young, charming, brainy female, and they had many chats
about uncontroversial subjects. She told him she'd once led a very
strictly guided tour of Russians to the west -- to Naples. She asked
him, "Is the rest of the West as rich as Naples is?"
He couldn't think of a thing to say.
<g> Yeah, that one would leave me speechless, also.
--
Moni (fmomoon)
"The truth shall set you free; but first you'll be really p*ssed off!" Bill
Cosby
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