"Life expectancy in Cuba soon to be 80 years" (Granma) + Comment

[Barry Schier]

{Preface}

While it is possible to dismiss the parts in the article below re
certainty / anticipation / prediction of raising average Cuban life
expectancy to 80+ years in the very near future, and while may consider
life expectancy of 120 years (like the Maltese Falcon) "the stuff that
dreams are made of," one thing is impossible to dismiss without
sticking one's head in the sand (Footnote: or is it in the mud normally
used for slinging at the Cuban Revolution, its leaders and/or
accomplishments?) : the statistic of CURRENT average Cuban life
expectancy of 77+ years, a statistic for which there is a virtual
consensus including those supporting the Cuban Revolution (e.g., Granma
newspaper, which in many senses has been the voice of the Cuban
Revolution), those claiming political neturality (e.g., the United
Nations' World Health Organization, Pan-American Health Organization,
etc.), and those working overtime trying to overthrow the Cuban
Revolution (e.g., the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, in statistics
contained in the C.I.A. World Factbook).

When one considers that Cuba has few or none of the modern
multi-million-dollar "medical machines" common in U.S. and E.U.
hospitals (e.g., CAT scanners, MRI machines, etc.), it is all the more
impressive that Cuba is currently only very slightly behind the U.S.
and E.U. nations in average life expectancy (and other quiality of
life) statistics. Moreover, as I observed when viewing half-empty
Cuban hospital pharmacy shelves (even before I had taken nursing
courses and was thus neither interested in doing nor trained to do a
scientific and systematic search concerning this subject), there are
periodic (and, sometimes, perennial shortages) of many medicines
(including aspirin, which most Amercans take for granted).

Moreover, unlike the United States, where 40 million people have no
health insurance whatsoever, and most of the remainder pays a
significant proportion of their salary and/or Social Security benefits
for health care related expenses, Cuba has the highest proportion of
doctors to population in the world, and unlike the countries of the
capitalist world (even those, unlike the United States, with some
national health care program) available to people regardless of income
level: In Cuba, not only is health care FREE for all its citizens. but
education (from grade school through grad school!) is tuition-free.

Unlike the United States, where doctors who go out on "house calls"
are increasingly uncommon, in Cuba there is not a nationwide system of
family doctors and local clinics, but there also is an emphasis on
preventative medicine (instead of merely attempting to cure those who
are already sick). And there are about 15,000 Cuban doctors in
Venezuela (not to mention a few thousand in a list of other "Third
World" countries) volunteering to give health care principally to the
poor. (Tiny and relatively poor Cuba has more doctors volunteering
abroad than the World Health Organization.) Therefore, I disagree with
the editors of Granma; my choice of headline would be: "Life expectancy
in Cuba is now 77+ years."

- Barry

{Article}

GRANMA INTERNATIONAL
Havana. May 19, 2006

Life expectancy in Cuba soon to be 80 years

BY NAVIL GARCIA ALFONSO-Granma International staff writer-

AGING with health is the maxim of the 4th International Conference on
Satisfactory Longevity: an Integral Vision, which took place in
Cuba's Hotel Nacional, sponsored by the Caribbean Medical Association
and the 120 Years Club.

Doctor Eugenio Selman-Houssein Abdo highlighted the conditions
developed in Cuba to maintain good quality of life conditions,
including nutrition, health, physical activity, culture, motivation
and the environment.

"Cuba guarantees education and healthcare free of charge; full access
to sports and culture; it promotes healthy eating and keeps elderly
people motivated through their association with senior citizen
centers," Selman noted. "We also have a high-quality health
infrastructure that includes 430 multi-disciplinary teams for
gerontology services and a pharmaceutical industry that produces 80%
of the medications used in the country."

That combination of factors will soon make it possible for life
expectancy in Cuba, currently at 77 years, to reach 80 years,
according to Doctor Alberto Fernández Seco, director of the National
Program for Attention to Older Adults.

However, noted Fernández Seco, the aging of the population increases
the risks for disabilities and illnesses that come with it, which
requires specialized medical services for long-term patient care.

Several seniors who are considered stars of Cuban sport shared their
experiences and the importance of physical exercise for staying
healthy.

They included boxer Orlando Martínez, the first Olympic gold medalist
of the Revolution's sports programs, and baseball players Máximo
García and Pedro Almenares, who left professional baseball to join
the Revolution's sports movement.

José Ramón Fernández, president of the Cuban Olympic Committee,
noted
that one main goal is for older athletes to stay active, so that they
can help develop the nation's sports with their valuable experience.
Likewise, he highlighted the importance of exercise as a guarantee
for reaching 120 years with a life that is pleasant, lucid and
useful.

[Barry Schier]

My attempt to boldface, italize and underline "not only" in the phrase,
"in Cuba there is not only a nationwide system of family doctors and
local clinics, ..." resulted in the disappearance of the word only,
thus reserving the intended message of the sentence / paragraph.
Corrected version of excerpt:

"Unlike the United States, where doctors who go out on "house calls"
are increasingly uncommon, in Cuba there is not a nationwide system of
family doctors and local clinics, but there also is an emphasis on
preventative medicine (instead of merely attempting to cure those who
are already sick). And there are about 15,000 Cuban doctors in
Venezuela (not to mention a few thousand in a list of other "Third
World" countries) volunteering to give health care principally to the
poor. (Tiny and relatively poor Cuba has more doctors volunteering
abroad than the World Health Organization.) Therefore, I disagree with

the editors of Granma; my choice of headline would be: "Life expectancy

in Cuba is now 77+ years."

-- Barry Schier

[Barry Schier]

My attempt to boldface, italize and underline "not only" in the phrase,

"in Cuba there is not only a nationwide system of family doctors and
local clinics, ..." resulted in the disappearance of the word only,
thus reserving the intended message of the sentence / paragraph.
Corrected version of excerpt:

"Unlike the United States, where doctors who go out on "house calls"
are increasingly uncommon, in Cuba there is NOT ONLY a nationwide
system of
family doctors and local clinics, but there also is an emphasis on
preventative medicine (instead of merely attempting to cure those who
are already sick). And there are about 15,000 Cuban doctors in
Venezuela (not to mention a few thousand in a list of other "Third
World" countries) volunteering to give health care principally to the
poor. (Tiny and relatively poor Cuba has more doctors volunteering
abroad than the World Health Organization.) Therefore, I disagree with

[PL]

"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
(snip)

Post by Barry Schier
in Cuba is now 77+ years."

And the French magazine "L'Express" called the homes for the elderly in Cuba
"mouroirs" (dying places), no?

http://www.lexpress.fr/info/monde/dossier/cuba/dossier.asp?ida=428531

PL

[Observador]

Of course....they lack the diet that although in a
sense "unhealthy", is pleasing to the taste...
McDonalds and its colesterol filled hamburgers and
fries, ketchup, 2 eggs in the morning with milk
and coffee....cheese danish etc...of course they
are going to live longer!!! BUT NOT BETTER !!!

On 19 May 2006 19:58:51 -0700, "Barry Schier"

Post by Barry Schier
{Preface}
While it is possible to dismiss the parts in the article below re
certainty / anticipation / prediction of raising average Cuban life
expectancy to 80+ years in the very near future, and while may consider
life expectancy of 120 years (like the Maltese Falcon) "the stuff that
dreams are made of," one thing is impossible to dismiss without
sticking one's head in the sand (Footnote: or is it in the mud normally
used for slinging at the Cuban Revolution, its leaders and/or
accomplishments?) : the statistic of CURRENT average Cuban life
expectancy of 77+ years, a statistic for which there is a virtual
consensus including those supporting the Cuban Revolution (e.g., Granma
newspaper, which in many senses has been the voice of the Cuban
Revolution), those claiming political neturality (e.g., the United
Nations' World Health Organization, Pan-American Health Organization,
etc.), and those working overtime trying to overthrow the Cuban
Revolution (e.g., the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, in statistics
contained in the C.I.A. World Factbook).
When one considers that Cuba has few or none of the modern
multi-million-dollar "medical machines" common in U.S. and E.U.
hospitals (e.g., CAT scanners, MRI machines, etc.), it is all the more
impressive that Cuba is currently only very slightly behind the U.S.
and E.U. nations in average life expectancy (and other quiality of
life) statistics. Moreover, as I observed when viewing half-empty
Cuban hospital pharmacy shelves (even before I had taken nursing
courses and was thus neither interested in doing nor trained to do a
scientific and systematic search concerning this subject), there are
periodic (and, sometimes, perennial shortages) of many medicines
(including aspirin, which most Amercans take for granted).
Moreover, unlike the United States, where 40 million people have no
health insurance whatsoever, and most of the remainder pays a
significant proportion of their salary and/or Social Security benefits
for health care related expenses, Cuba has the highest proportion of
doctors to population in the world, and unlike the countries of the
capitalist world (even those, unlike the United States, with some
national health care program) available to people regardless of income
level: In Cuba, not only is health care FREE for all its citizens. but
education (from grade school through grad school!) is tuition-free.
Unlike the United States, where doctors who go out on "house calls"
are increasingly uncommon, in Cuba there is not a nationwide system of
family doctors and local clinics, but there also is an emphasis on
preventative medicine (instead of merely attempting to cure those who
are already sick). And there are about 15,000 Cuban doctors in
Venezuela (not to mention a few thousand in a list of other "Third
World" countries) volunteering to give health care principally to the
poor. (Tiny and relatively poor Cuba has more doctors volunteering
abroad than the World Health Organization.) Therefore, I disagree with
the editors of Granma; my choice of headline would be: "Life expectancy
in Cuba is now 77+ years."
- Barry
{Article}
GRANMA INTERNATIONAL
Havana. May 19, 2006
Life expectancy in Cuba soon to be 80 years
BY NAVIL GARCIA ALFONSO-Granma International staff writer-
AGING with health is the maxim of the 4th International Conference on
Satisfactory Longevity: an Integral Vision, which took place in
Cuba's Hotel Nacional, sponsored by the Caribbean Medical Association
and the 120 Years Club.
Doctor Eugenio Selman-Houssein Abdo highlighted the conditions
developed in Cuba to maintain good quality of life conditions,
including nutrition, health, physical activity, culture, motivation
and the environment.
"Cuba guarantees education and healthcare free of charge; full access
to sports and culture; it promotes healthy eating and keeps elderly
people motivated through their association with senior citizen
centers," Selman noted. "We also have a high-quality health
infrastructure that includes 430 multi-disciplinary teams for
gerontology services and a pharmaceutical industry that produces 80%
of the medications used in the country."
That combination of factors will soon make it possible for life
expectancy in Cuba, currently at 77 years, to reach 80 years,
according to Doctor Alberto Fern=E1ndez Seco, director of the National
Program for Attention to Older Adults.
However, noted Fern=E1ndez Seco, the aging of the population increases
the risks for disabilities and illnesses that come with it, which
requires specialized medical services for long-term patient care.
Several seniors who are considered stars of Cuban sport shared their
experiences and the importance of physical exercise for staying
healthy.
They included boxer Orlando Mart=EDnez, the first Olympic gold medalist
of the Revolution's sports programs, and baseball players M=E1ximo
Garc=EDa and Pedro Almenares, who left professional baseball to join
the Revolution's sports movement.
Jos=E9 Ram=F3n Fern=E1ndez, president of the Cuban Olympic Committee,
noted
that one main goal is for older athletes to stay active, so that they
can help develop the nation's sports with their valuable experience.
Likewise, he highlighted the importance of exercise as a guarantee
for reaching 120 years with a life that is pleasant, lucid and
useful.

[PL]

"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
{Preface}

While it is possible to dismiss the parts in the article below(snip)

But then one has to start believing the Cuban statistics to accept any of
it, no?
International experts and Cuban doctors that have left the island have
stated that these statitics are doctored themselves.
See: www.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390

When one considers that Cuba has few or none of the modern
multi-million-dollar "medical machines"

(snip)

You mean for the people.
They are readily available in "tourist" sector of the Cuban apartheid heamth
system.
see: http://www.cubaverdad.net/apartheid_in_cuba.htm

Cuba has the highest proportion of doctors to population in the world

but then over 30,000 are being rented out buy Castro,no?
http://www.cubaverdad.net/apartheid_in_cuba.htm#II._Medical_apartheid.

"I think medical services will have replaced tourism as our most important
source of revenue in 2005," said Garcia, who directs the Cuban Economy Study
Center at Havana University.



Source :"Cuba's medical services becoming major moneymaker", South Florida
Sun Sentinel, Dec.18 2005.

Original location:
http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/news/world/13436632.htm

Archive copy: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/19469





and less and less (worse and worse) services for Cubans, no?

"One recent U.N. mission to Cuba found a clinic in the eastern city of
Santiago where 60 of the 140 staff doctors were abroad, according to the
Interamerican Dialogue, a think tank in Washington. And it's not just a
problem for Cubans."


"Cuban doctors bring relief, but controversy mars their work.', Miami
Herald, March 5, 2006.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/americas/14018330.htm



As Cuba loans doctors abroad, some patients object at home
By Indira A.R. Lakshmanan, Globe Staff | August 25, 2005

http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2005/08/25/as_cuba_loans_doctors_abroad_some_patients_object_at_home/?page=1

In Cuba, not only is health care FREE for all its citizens.

it is not. Lots of medicines can only be had with dollars.

but education (from grade school through grad school!) is tuition-free.

for those that do not speak out aginst the regime you mean.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/human_rights_and_education_cuba.htm

Unlike the United States, where doctors who go out on "house calls"
are increasingly uncommon, in Cuba there is not a nationwide system of
family doctors and local clinics,

that are being depleted for Castro's doctor trade you mean.

PL

[Pedro]

Afortunadamente lo contrario ocurre con la gusanera Cubana de Miami.

Thank God!

Post by Barry Schier
{Preface}
While it is possible to dismiss the parts in the article below re
certainty / anticipation / prediction of raising average Cuban life
expectancy to 80+ years in the very near future, and while may consider
life expectancy of 120 years (like the Maltese Falcon) "the stuff that
dreams are made of," one thing is impossible to dismiss without
sticking one's head in the sand (Footnote: or is it in the mud normally
used for slinging at the Cuban Revolution, its leaders and/or
accomplishments?) : the statistic of CURRENT average Cuban life
expectancy of 77+ years, a statistic for which there is a virtual
consensus including those supporting the Cuban Revolution (e.g., Granma
newspaper, which in many senses has been the voice of the Cuban
Revolution), those claiming political neturality (e.g., the United
Nations' World Health Organization, Pan-American Health Organization,
etc.), and those working overtime trying to overthrow the Cuban
Revolution (e.g., the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, in statistics
contained in the C.I.A. World Factbook).
When one considers that Cuba has few or none of the modern
multi-million-dollar "medical machines" common in U.S. and E.U.
hospitals (e.g., CAT scanners, MRI machines, etc.), it is all the more
impressive that Cuba is currently only very slightly behind the U.S.
and E.U. nations in average life expectancy (and other quiality of
life) statistics. Moreover, as I observed when viewing half-empty
Cuban hospital pharmacy shelves (even before I had taken nursing
courses and was thus neither interested in doing nor trained to do a
scientific and systematic search concerning this subject), there are
periodic (and, sometimes, perennial shortages) of many medicines
(including aspirin, which most Amercans take for granted).
Moreover, unlike the United States, where 40 million people have no
health insurance whatsoever, and most of the remainder pays a
significant proportion of their salary and/or Social Security benefits
for health care related expenses, Cuba has the highest proportion of
doctors to population in the world, and unlike the countries of the
capitalist world (even those, unlike the United States, with some
national health care program) available to people regardless of income
level: In Cuba, not only is health care FREE for all its citizens. but
education (from grade school through grad school!) is tuition-free.
Unlike the United States, where doctors who go out on "house calls"
are increasingly uncommon, in Cuba there is not a nationwide system of
family doctors and local clinics, but there also is an emphasis on
preventative medicine (instead of merely attempting to cure those who
are already sick). And there are about 15,000 Cuban doctors in
Venezuela (not to mention a few thousand in a list of other "Third
World" countries) volunteering to give health care principally to the
poor. (Tiny and relatively poor Cuba has more doctors volunteering
abroad than the World Health Organization.) Therefore, I disagree with
the editors of Granma; my choice of headline would be: "Life expectancy
in Cuba is now 77+ years."
- Barry
{Article}
GRANMA INTERNATIONAL
Havana. May 19, 2006
Life expectancy in Cuba soon to be 80 years
BY NAVIL GARCIA ALFONSO-Granma International staff writer-
AGING with health is the maxim of the 4th International Conference on
Satisfactory Longevity: an Integral Vision, which took place in
Cuba's Hotel Nacional, sponsored by the Caribbean Medical Association
and the 120 Years Club.
Doctor Eugenio Selman-Houssein Abdo highlighted the conditions
developed in Cuba to maintain good quality of life conditions,
including nutrition, health, physical activity, culture, motivation
and the environment.
"Cuba guarantees education and healthcare free of charge; full access
to sports and culture; it promotes healthy eating and keeps elderly
people motivated through their association with senior citizen
centers," Selman noted. "We also have a high-quality health
infrastructure that includes 430 multi-disciplinary teams for
gerontology services and a pharmaceutical industry that produces 80%
of the medications used in the country."
That combination of factors will soon make it possible for life
expectancy in Cuba, currently at 77 years, to reach 80 years,
according to Doctor Alberto Fernández Seco, director of the National
Program for Attention to Older Adults.
However, noted Fernández Seco, the aging of the population increases
the risks for disabilities and illnesses that come with it, which
requires specialized medical services for long-term patient care.
Several seniors who are considered stars of Cuban sport shared their
experiences and the importance of physical exercise for staying
healthy.
They included boxer Orlando Martínez, the first Olympic gold medalist
of the Revolution's sports programs, and baseball players Máximo
García and Pedro Almenares, who left professional baseball to join
the Revolution's sports movement.
José Ramón Fernández, president of the Cuban Olympic Committee,
noted
that one main goal is for older athletes to stay active, so that they
can help develop the nation's sports with their valuable experience.
Likewise, he highlighted the importance of exercise as a guarantee
for reaching 120 years with a life that is pleasant, lucid and
useful.

[Mensajero]

And the glorious totalitarian marxist revolution
has given cuba, the lowest rate of automobile
highway accidents and deaths in the hemesphere.
On second though, it could be because the people
can't afford to buy cars......


On 19 May 2006 19:58:51 -0700, "Barry Schier"

Post by Barry Schier
{Preface}
While it is possible to dismiss the parts in the article below re
certainty / anticipation / prediction of raising average Cuban life
expectancy to 80+ years in the very near future, and while may consider
life expectancy of 120 years (like the Maltese Falcon) "the stuff that
dreams are made of," one thing is impossible to dismiss without
sticking one's head in the sand (Footnote: or is it in the mud normally
used for slinging at the Cuban Revolution, its leaders and/or
accomplishments?) : the statistic of CURRENT average Cuban life
expectancy of 77+ years, a statistic for which there is a virtual
consensus including those supporting the Cuban Revolution (e.g., Granma
newspaper, which in many senses has been the voice of the Cuban
Revolution), those claiming political neturality (e.g., the United
Nations' World Health Organization, Pan-American Health Organization,
etc.), and those working overtime trying to overthrow the Cuban
Revolution (e.g., the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, in statistics
contained in the C.I.A. World Factbook).
When one considers that Cuba has few or none of the modern
multi-million-dollar "medical machines" common in U.S. and E.U.
hospitals (e.g., CAT scanners, MRI machines, etc.), it is all the more
impressive that Cuba is currently only very slightly behind the U.S.
and E.U. nations in average life expectancy (and other quiality of
life) statistics. Moreover, as I observed when viewing half-empty
Cuban hospital pharmacy shelves (even before I had taken nursing
courses and was thus neither interested in doing nor trained to do a
scientific and systematic search concerning this subject), there are
periodic (and, sometimes, perennial shortages) of many medicines
(including aspirin, which most Amercans take for granted).
Moreover, unlike the United States, where 40 million people have no
health insurance whatsoever, and most of the remainder pays a
significant proportion of their salary and/or Social Security benefits
for health care related expenses, Cuba has the highest proportion of
doctors to population in the world, and unlike the countries of the
capitalist world (even those, unlike the United States, with some
national health care program) available to people regardless of income
level: In Cuba, not only is health care FREE for all its citizens. but
education (from grade school through grad school!) is tuition-free.
Unlike the United States, where doctors who go out on "house calls"
are increasingly uncommon, in Cuba there is not a nationwide system of
family doctors and local clinics, but there also is an emphasis on
preventative medicine (instead of merely attempting to cure those who
are already sick). And there are about 15,000 Cuban doctors in
Venezuela (not to mention a few thousand in a list of other "Third
World" countries) volunteering to give health care principally to the
poor. (Tiny and relatively poor Cuba has more doctors volunteering
abroad than the World Health Organization.) Therefore, I disagree with
the editors of Granma; my choice of headline would be: "Life expectancy
in Cuba is now 77+ years."
- Barry
{Article}
GRANMA INTERNATIONAL
Havana. May 19, 2006
Life expectancy in Cuba soon to be 80 years
BY NAVIL GARCIA ALFONSO-Granma International staff writer-
AGING with health is the maxim of the 4th International Conference on
Satisfactory Longevity: an Integral Vision, which took place in
Cuba's Hotel Nacional, sponsored by the Caribbean Medical Association
and the 120 Years Club.
Doctor Eugenio Selman-Houssein Abdo highlighted the conditions
developed in Cuba to maintain good quality of life conditions,
including nutrition, health, physical activity, culture, motivation
and the environment.
"Cuba guarantees education and healthcare free of charge; full access
to sports and culture; it promotes healthy eating and keeps elderly
people motivated through their association with senior citizen
centers," Selman noted. "We also have a high-quality health
infrastructure that includes 430 multi-disciplinary teams for
gerontology services and a pharmaceutical industry that produces 80%
of the medications used in the country."
That combination of factors will soon make it possible for life
expectancy in Cuba, currently at 77 years, to reach 80 years,
according to Doctor Alberto Fern=E1ndez Seco, director of the National
Program for Attention to Older Adults.
However, noted Fern=E1ndez Seco, the aging of the population increases
the risks for disabilities and illnesses that come with it, which
requires specialized medical services for long-term patient care.
Several seniors who are considered stars of Cuban sport shared their
experiences and the importance of physical exercise for staying
healthy.
They included boxer Orlando Mart=EDnez, the first Olympic gold medalist
of the Revolution's sports programs, and baseball players M=E1ximo
Garc=EDa and Pedro Almenares, who left professional baseball to join
the Revolution's sports movement.
Jos=E9 Ram=F3n Fern=E1ndez, president of the Cuban Olympic Committee,
noted
that one main goal is for older athletes to stay active, so that they
can help develop the nation's sports with their valuable experience.
Likewise, he highlighted the importance of exercise as a guarantee
for reaching 120 years with a life that is pleasant, lucid and
useful.

[Barry Schier]

Or it could be that, even if they could afford those cars, the U.S.
embargo against Cuba prohibits export to Cuba of parts by U.S. car
manufacturers as well as those companies with subsidaries in the U.S.
(Cuba is one of the countries with the most pre-1959 U.S. cars)
-- Barry Schier

[TORREBLANCA®]

Post by Barry Schier
Or it could be that, even if they could afford those cars, the U.S.
embargo

embargo ? what do you mean by embargo ?




against Cuba prohibits export to Cuba of parts by U.S. car

Post by Barry Schier
manufacturers as well as those companies with subsidaries in the U.S.
(Cuba is one of the countries with the most pre-1959 U.S. cars)
-- Barry Schier

[PL]

Post by Barry Schier
Or it could be that, even if they could afford those cars,

which we all know they can't based on a $12 a month salary
They can't even afford gasoline.

Post by Barry Schier
the U.S.
embargo against Cuba prohibits export to Cuba of parts by U.S. car
manufacturers as well as those companies with subsidaries in the U.S.

that is of course why the Cuban car rental companies offer Chrysler Voyagers
and why the Cuban telephone company has Chevrolet pickups.

PL

[Barry Schier]

"That is of course why the Cuban car rental companies offer Chrysler
Voyagers
and why the Cuban telephone company has Chevrolet pickups," PL claims /
writes -- imported directly from anywhere but the cuontry of origin
only 100 miles away. Cubans get rice from Vietnam and China. Their was
no "decision" to get materials and commodities often from the side of
the globe made by Cuba, for the illogic and waste of such a choice
(especially considering the U.S. commodities often have lower prices
and higher quality than the currently imported ones) is obvious to all
(except for PL and his Biscayne Bay and Capitol Hill clones).

-- Barry Schier

[krp]

Post by Barry Schier
"That is of course why the Cuban car rental companies offer Chrysler
Voyagers

Funny in all the times I have been in Cuba the only Voyagers I saw were
parked at the U.S. Interests section. The rentals I saw were generally
Hyundais in the vans.

Post by Barry Schier
and why the Cuban telephone company has Chevrolet pickups," PL claims /
writes -- imported directly from anywhere but the cuontry of origin
only 100 miles away.
Cubans get rice from Vietnam and China.

Also Pakistan and the US. They SIFFED the Paks though.

Post by Barry Schier
Their was no "decision" to get materials and commodities often from the
side of
the globe made by Cuba, for the illogic and waste of such a choice
(especially considering the U.S. commodities often have lower prices
and higher quality than the currently imported ones) is obvious to all
(except for PL and his Biscayne Bay and Capitol Hill clones).

Funny that is 180 degrees out from what Castro said about the Chinese
built buses and locomotives. Funny the guy how he LIES, isn't it Barry?
While YOU tell us the straight skinny. Shall we replay President Castro's
own words on that? Funny that I believe what Mr. Castro says about Cuba
before I believe you.

[Barry Schier]

ANY safe, reliable, etc. means of transportation is better than a
shortage of means of transportation.

Unlike the United States government, which has dramatically cut funding
for public transportation and Amtrak (i.e., the passenger train system
run by the U.S. government), Cuba has addressed its problems with
transportation -- thus, the purchase of the "Chinese built buses and
locomotives," etc. A discussion of the price and quality of same must
take place in the context of a discussion of the lack of economic
resources of "Third World" countries (and therefore a lack of means to
buy needed items) because of imperialism and the related discussion
concerning the U.S. embargo against Cuba (condemned by the U.N. General
Assembly by increasing vote margins each year, starting with 57-3 and a
dozen years later passed by a 157-4 margin), which prohibits U.S.
companies from even selling model train sets, let alone parts for real
trains, to Cuba.

-- Barry Schier

[PL]

Post by Barry Schier
ANY safe, reliable, etc. means of transportation is better than a
shortage of means of transportation.
Unlike the United States government, which has dramatically cut funding
for public transportation

Tarnsport in Cuba is a disaster Barry.

Cuba and transportation:
http://search.blogger.com/?q=%22Transport%22+OR+%22Transporte%22+blogurl:cubadata.blogspot.com&btnG=Search+Blogs&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&x=0&y=0&scoring=d&ui=blg
http://www.cubaverdad.net/hitchhiking_in_cuba.htm


PL

[krp]

Post by Barry Schier
ANY safe, reliable, etc. means of transportation is better than a
shortage of means of transportation.
Unlike the United States government, which has dramatically cut funding
for public transportation and Amtrak (i.e., the passenger train system
run by the U.S. government), Cuba has addressed its problems with
transportation -- thus, the purchase of the "Chinese built buses and
locomotives," etc. A discussion of the price and quality of same must
take place in the context of a discussion of the lack of economic
resources of "Third World" countries (and therefore a lack of means to
buy needed items) because of imperialism and the related discussion
concerning the U.S. embargo against Cuba (condemned by the U.N. General
Assembly by increasing vote margins each year, starting with 57-3 and a
dozen years later passed by a 157-4 margin), which prohibits U.S.
companies from even selling model train sets, let alone parts for real
trains, to Cuba.

Horse shit again Barry. BC, that's BEFORE COMMUNISM - in Cuba - - Cuba was
nowhere near a 3rd world country it had either the second or 3rd (depending
on why you spoke to) strongest economy and standard of living in the Western
Hemisphere. Cat the bullshit here Barry. Shall we start down a LIST of
things Cuba had in 1958?

Cuba had full time color TV before 90% of the United States did in the 50's.
Cuba had a mass transportation system on the par with any major city in the
world at the time, including buses and subways. The TOTAL LACK of those
things were a DIRECT result of COMMUNISM! DIRECT Barry! The transportation
system COLLAPSED TOTALLY! Today people walk to work, use bicycles,
bici-taxis, horse drawn cars, Cameos, or ride dump trucks. IF they are
lucky! And Barry it is a HUGE HUGE HUGE *IF*.............

Blame it all on IMPERIALISM.... Just forget rampant corruption. Just forget
rampant INCOMPETENCE........... Just forget rampant Idon'tgiveashitism...
BLAME the Yanqui running dog imperialists, yeah, that's it, blame the
GRINGOS!

And cut the horse shit on the trains. Cuba had a bunch of GM diesel trains
from before the revolution. At ANY time they needed parts they could have
gotten them in Mexico where the IDENTICAL model locomotives are being built
today and ANY part needed is available.

And the General Assembly did NOT use the word "condemned" in its demands
that the US drop the embargo. Again Barry how would it actually help Cuba
IF the U.S. did drop the embargo? Other than for the US Taxpayer to FUND
Cuba - the black hole of the Caribbean?

Let's see hang yourself again with these FACTS>

According to Havana...............................

1. Cuba sells 100% of the sugarcane crop it can export NOW.
2. Cuba sells 100% of the Rum it presently has available for expert.
3. Cuba sells 100% of the tobacco product it can make for export.
4. Cuba currently sells 100% of the nickel that can be mined and shipped.
5. Cuban hotels and resorts are at almost 100% capacity.

Cuba presently gets the lion's share of its food and medicine from the U.S..

What would the U.S. BUY from Cuba?? What would the U.S. sell Cuba that it
could pay for?

Care to get specific Barry or just BULLSHIT some more with cute political
jingoisms?

[Observador]

I'm starting to get the connection, If there were
no imperialist United States, the rest of the
world would cease to exist. That is the point that
is being made, is it not.??



On 21 May 2006 09:12:53 -0700, "Barry Schier"

Post by Barry Schier
ANY safe, reliable, etc. means of transportation is better than a
shortage of means of transportation.
Unlike the United States government, which has dramatically cut funding
for public transportation and Amtrak (i.e., the passenger train system
run by the U.S. government), Cuba has addressed its problems with
transportation -- thus, the purchase of the "Chinese built buses and
locomotives," etc. A discussion of the price and quality of same must
take place in the context of a discussion of the lack of economic
resources of "Third World" countries (and therefore a lack of means to
buy needed items) because of imperialism and the related discussion
concerning the U.S. embargo against Cuba (condemned by the U.N. General
Assembly by increasing vote margins each year, starting with 57-3 and a
dozen years later passed by a 157-4 margin), which prohibits U.S.
companies from even selling model train sets, let alone parts for real
trains, to Cuba.
-- Barry Schier

[Inabón Yunes]

I didn't know they allow internet in psychiatric wards. Amazing, the US
can't feed their own yet the give a computer to a nut case.
iy

Post by Observador
I'm starting to get the connection, If there were
no imperialist United States, the rest of the
world would cease to exist. That is the point that
is being made, is it not.??
On 21 May 2006 09:12:53 -0700, "Barry Schier"

Post by Barry Schier
ANY safe, reliable, etc. means of transportation is better than a
shortage of means of transportation.
Unlike the United States government, which has dramatically cut funding
for public transportation and Amtrak (i.e., the passenger train system
run by the U.S. government), Cuba has addressed its problems with
transportation -- thus, the purchase of the "Chinese built buses and
locomotives," etc. A discussion of the price and quality of same must
take place in the context of a discussion of the lack of economic
resources of "Third World" countries (and therefore a lack of means to
buy needed items) because of imperialism and the related discussion
concerning the U.S. embargo against Cuba (condemned by the U.N. General
Assembly by increasing vote margins each year, starting with 57-3 and a
dozen years later passed by a 157-4 margin), which prohibits U.S.
companies from even selling model train sets, let alone parts for real
trains, to Cuba.
-- Barry Schier

[Barry Schier]

"Observador" wrote, "I'm starting to get the connection/ If there were
no imperialist United States, the rest of the
world would cease to exist. That is the point that is being made, is it
not.??"

No, Observador, you left out a phrase from the sentence: "If there
were no imperialist United States," countries with brutal
DICTATORSHIPS, EXPLOITATION, GROSS INEQUALITY, and a long list of
horrific socioeconomic conditions in "the rest of the world would cease
to exist." However, the United States would not cease to exist as an
imperialist country without there also being revolutions in other
countries. Although the United States is/are Cops of the World
(Footnote: the allusion the Phil Ochs topical song by that name is
deliberate) and in the Major Leagues of imperialism with 100+ major
military interventions in the last century alone (and not just the
Vietnam and Iraq wars), military bases in more than 6 dozen countries,
and was sponsor of C.I.A. coups which established brtual dictatorships
in a dozen more (e.g., Iran 1953, Guatemala 1954, Brazil 1954, Chile
1973, etc.), none of the major "advanced" capitalist countries have
hands that haven't been dripping with blood. France has never ceased
plundering West Africa, Britan has dominated all or part of Ireland for
800+ years and quite a few other countries before various colonial
independence movements disproved the adage that "... the sun never sets
on the British Empire ..." and (with a cast of "minor" players) is
aiding the U.S. governments' war for oil in Iraq and related fighting.
Even "little" imperialist nations have their own little imperialist
spheres of plunder: Tonga for New Zealand, Bougainville area for
Australia, etc.

And wherever there is no longer any imperialist United States in a
country, the major exploitation and plunder of a country's natural
resources, which gave the people little or nothing in return, ceases to
exist -- and the country regains its national sovereignty and right to
self-determination. That is why the imperalists will never forgive Cuba
for implementing Fidel Castro's pledge that the revolutionary
government would "nationalize the Yankees ... down to the nails in
their boots." THAT "is the point that is being made."

-- Barry Schier

[Observador]

The answer was just given away without knowing.
American and to a lesser extent Western influence
is translated into imperialism. This is a
meaningless word concocted by marx to denote a
modern world power and how its governing officials
have a fiduciary obligation to its citizens to
act.
American "imperialism", sets the standard for the
modern world. Entertainment, closthing,
transportation, even philosophy is based on
Western thought.
The old Soviet Union had its ligth in the sun with
socialism, however the desire of people to be the
authors of their own destiny relegated communism
to the letrine of history.
The same will happen in cuba, venezuela and other
third world countries...
Once they become educated, they will abandon
socialism and the individual instinct to be the
authors of their own future will take over and
relegate those socialist systems to the trash heap
of history...

On 21 May 2006 21:55:35 -0700, "Barry Schier"

Post by Barry Schier
"Observador" wrote, "I'm starting to get the connection/ If there were
no imperialist United States, the rest of the
world would cease to exist. That is the point that is being made, is it
not.??"
No, Observador, you left out a phrase from the sentence: "If there
were no imperialist United States," countries with brutal
DICTATORSHIPS, EXPLOITATION, GROSS INEQUALITY, and a long list of
horrific socioeconomic conditions in "the rest of the world would cease
to exist." However, the United States would not cease to exist as an
imperialist country without there also being revolutions in other
countries. Although the United States is/are Cops of the World
(Footnote: the allusion the Phil Ochs topical song by that name is
deliberate) and in the Major Leagues of imperialism with 100+ major
military interventions in the last century alone (and not just the
Vietnam and Iraq wars), military bases in more than 6 dozen countries,
and was sponsor of C.I.A. coups which established brtual dictatorships
in a dozen more (e.g., Iran 1953, Guatemala 1954, Brazil 1954, Chile
1973, etc.), none of the major "advanced" capitalist countries have
hands that haven't been dripping with blood. France has never ceased
plundering West Africa, Britan has dominated all or part of Ireland for
800+ years and quite a few other countries before various colonial
independence movements disproved the adage that "... the sun never sets
on the British Empire ..." and (with a cast of "minor" players) is
aiding the U.S. governments' war for oil in Iraq and related fighting.
Even "little" imperialist nations have their own little imperialist
spheres of plunder: Tonga for New Zealand, Bougainville area for
Australia, etc.
And wherever there is no longer any imperialist United States in a
country, the major exploitation and plunder of a country's natural
resources, which gave the people little or nothing in return, ceases to
exist -- and the country regains its national sovereignty and right to
self-determination. That is why the imperalists will never forgive Cuba
for implementing Fidel Castro's pledge that the revolutionary
government would "nationalize the Yankees ... down to the nails in
their boots." THAT "is the point that is being made."
-- Barry Schier

[KRP]

Post by Barry Schier
And wherever there is no longer any imperialist United States in a
country, the major exploitation and plunder of a country's natural
resources, which gave the people little or nothing in return, ceases to
exist -- and the country regains its national sovereignty and right to
self-determination. That is why the imperalists will never forgive Cuba
for implementing Fidel Castro's pledge that the revolutionary
government would "nationalize the Yankees ... down to the nails in
their boots." THAT "is the point that is being made."

Barry one wonder with your LOUD mouth - WHY you just don't move to your
DEMOCRATIC PARADISE in Cuba or better yet North Korea where your bullshit
will fit right in with your MASTERS??!!!!

Put your money where your mouth is - so they say!

[Barry Schier]

{Message #12 repeated with "typo" corrected and an additional phrase:)

"That is of course why the Cuban car rental companies offer Chrysler
Voyagers and why the Cuban telephone company has Chevrolet pickups," PL
claims / writes -- imported directly from anywhere but the cuontry of
origin
only 100 miles away. Cubans get rice from Vietnam and China. There was

no "decision" to get materials and commodities often from the side of
the globe made by Cuba, for the illogic and waste of such a choice
(especially considering the U.S. commodities often have lower prices
and higher quality than the currently imported ones) is obvious to all
(Footnote: except for PL, a cross-breed of an apologist for U.S. policy
and an ostrich who frequently denies the very existence of the U.S.
embargo against Cuba, which 179 countries voted in the U.N. General
Assembly voted to condemn, with the U.S. and 2 or 3 allies voting in
opposition to that resolution) and his Biscayne Bay and Capitol Hill
clones.

-- Barry Schier

[PL]

Post by Barry Schier
"That is of course why the Cuban car rental companies offer Chrysler
Voyagers
and why the Cuban telephone company has Chevrolet pickups," PL claims /
writes -- imported directly from anywhere but the cuontry of origin

Nope.
From the country were they are produced.
Check on production comrade Barry.

Post by Barry Schier
only 100 miles away.

Mexico is over 100 miles away. So is Detroit Michigan.

Post by Barry Schier
Cubans get rice from Vietnam and China.

as Castro destroyed the Cuban rice production for his "zafra".
Rice is the staple of Cuban food. Cubans where no bread eaters. they ate
rice.
"After WW2 imported rice was difficult to obtain and costly, so Cuban
farmers had an incentive to grow rice. In 1949 Cuba produced 10 percent of
domestic consumption. In 1960, the year after Castro came to power, the
Cuban rice harvest was 400,000 metric toms, making Cuba for the first time
self-sufficient in rice. During the decade of the fifties, Cuban producers
had successfully adopted the latest methods of rice farming employed in
Louisiana and Texas. From the point of technological expertise, rice
production outstripped that of any other branch of Cuban agriculture; and in
terms of money value, rice became one of Cuba's major crops.
By 1962, with Cuban agriculture socialized, the rice yield was reduced by
50%. The same year, as has already been noted, the rationing of foodstuffs
was introduced, with the rice ration set at 6 pounds per person per month.
... That lowered per capita consumption by two thirds... More over, for
low-income Cubans, for whom rice formed amore substantial part of their
diet, the reduction was even greater."
M. Halperin, Return to Havana, Vanderbilt University Press, Nashville, 1994,
p.49-50.


A well functioning free market ensured that from a shortage in 1949 break
even was achieved by 1960. Castro ruined the industry by 1962. In two years
50% of the annual need in rice were no longer met.


In 1966 the rice ration was again reduced by half to 3 ponds per person per
month. that is down from 18 to 3 ponds since the start of the dictatorship.
The reason was: the deal that Castro himself had made with China on the
supply of rice fell through when Castro didn't deliver the promised support
in their "polemic" with the SU.
(for details on the rice Crisis and the Cuba - China quarrel see: M.
Halperin, Taming of Fidel Castro, Berkeley: University of California Press,
1981, p. 195-207.)


"Thus in 1965, Cuban rice production had dwindled to 50,000 tons..."
M. Halperin, Return to Havana, Vanderbilt University Press, Nashville, 1994,
p.50..


Why did Castro need to reduce rice productions even further: to grow more
sugar to reach his (foolish) goal of 10 million tons of sugar in 1970.
He never made it, but destroyed the production of a staple food while at it.
Gross incompetence. Criminal negligence.


At the end of 1989 the rice ration was 5 pounds. Down from an average
consumption of 18 pounds before the revolution.
Last I saw that is still the same outside Havana with a 20% larger ration of
6 pounds in Havana.

Post by Barry Schier
Their was no "decision" to get materials and commodities often from the
side of
the globe made by Cuba

False.
as the "rice commodity" story shows?

PL

[Barry Schier]

PL wrote, ".. We all know they [Cubans] can't based on a $12 a month
salary.
They can't even afford gasoline."

There's quite a few working people IN THE UNITED STATES who are finding
it increasing difficult to "even afford gasoline"!!!

While rents and gasoline price have increased nearly tenfold since I
exited my teenage years, the Consumer Price Index had barely
quadrupled. (The Consumer Price Index has a dual purpose: (1) to
serve as a figure, derived by the United States government from its
official statistics, to gauge prices and the cost of living; (2) to
prove the adage of Mark Twain (in turn derved from Disraeli) that there
are "Lies, damned lies, and statistics ..." )

I am supposed to be "lucky" that I live very near one of the cheapest
gas stations in metro Los Angeles - a great bargain at "only" $3.259
per gallon. By coincidence, I just received a photograph of a friend
who had visited taken 4 years ago; in the photo's background is a
gasoline station near Cal State Northridge with the gasoline price sign
stating $1.359 per gallon. My memories of first going to school looking
out the window while riding the bus and only occasionally seeing
"premium grade" gasoline prices as high as $0.329 per galllon. In 1974,
there were lines around the block at gasoline stations; the so-called
gasoline shortage" ended just as quickly as it started, and (by pure
coincidence) gasoline pump prices were several times their
pre-"shortage" levels.


These price increases are not because of a recent dramatic decline in
deaths of multi-million[year-old flora and fauna (i.e., the components
of "fossil fuels" such as gasoline)! ExxonMobil's profits last year
were $36-billion, that is almost more than entire national budget of
Cuba. The profits of the other oil giants were a bit less, but still of
the same magnitude.

As someone who has multiple friends who are refinery workers (who keep
an eye out for me about whenever there are job openings at their
workplace/s for which I could apply), I know that nary a penny of these
multibillion profits have benefited them; in fact, their employers have
been requesting CUTS in their employees' medical and retirement
benefits. The "jump" in gasoline prices is not because of what
happened 65-million-plus years ago, but because of a socioeconomic
system (i.e., capitalism) that has been around for about 65 decades and
had a progressive sociohistorical role (spurring economic,
national/democrat, and political revolutions) until roughly twice 65
years ago and reactionary ever since. While, consistent with the logic
of capitalism, working people get gouged at the fuel pump to fuel the
megaprofits of those capitalist companies, Venezuela (which, despite
reactionaries' characterizations of Venezuela President Hugo Chavez,
stepped up as Venezuelan-Cuban cooperation has deepened, is not even
socialist, but has a government which had arisen in the context of
popular mobilizations and often reflects the results of those
pressures) initiated a program wherein Venezuela supplies fuel to poor
families in the northeast United States at greatly reduced prices.
(That was a very minor motivation for my attending yesterday's
demonstration, sponsored by the May 20th Coalition, demanding "U.S.:
Hands Off Cuba and Venezuela!")

-- Barry Schier

[PL]

Post by Barry Schier
PL wrote, ".. We all know they [Cubans] can't based on a $12 a month
salary.
They can't even afford gasoline."
There's quite a few working people

very few that make under $12 a month Barry.

In Cuba the government controls everything Barry.
it tells you what you can get.

PL

[Barry Schier]

PL, please make up your mind which lie / deception to use. In message
#11, you've written "... which we all know they [Cubans] can't based
on a $12 a month salary. They can't even afford gasoline." Then in
this discussion contribution, you've written that there are "... very
few [Cubans] that make under $12 a month, Barry."

I just mutliply Cubans' salary figures by the U.S. dollar / Cuban
standard peso conversion rate to come up with an estimate of monthly
salaries of Cubans, which does not account for the fact that virtually
every major necessity of life which eat up the salaries of working
people in the United States is free or very cheap in Cuba, e.g., rents
are limited to 10% of one's income, education and medical care are free
and universal in Cuba.

"In Cuba the government ... it tells you what you can get ...," PL
writes. Elided thought was that "In Cuba, the government tells [one]
what [one] can get ..." at prices which are even lower than token
prices, i.e., a whole month of listed materials although, in reality,
usually enough for half to two-thirds of average needs) at a total
charge of less than what I (or any other working-class American) spend
in a mere part of one day.

-- Barry Schier
.

[krp]

Post by Barry Schier
PL, please make up your mind which lie / deception to use. In message
#11, you've written "... which we all know they [Cubans] can't based
on a $12 a month salary. They can't even afford gasoline." Then in
this discussion contribution, you've written that there are "... very
few [Cubans] that make under $12 a month, Barry."

Hate to tell you Barry - but PL is right. Most workers in Cuba are paid
now about $6 a month. And pay moves up from there. 2 years ago it was $4.50
a month until father Fidel gave them a $1.50 pay raise. (Peso equivalent)
The next large group makes about $8 a month. More skilled professions can
make $15 a month. Importanmt jobs like a Judge (as my wife was) ear about
$25 a month. My brother in law is an architect he makes $22 a month. My
other brother in law is a college professor and famous artist and he is
allowed a take home of about $30 a month. My wife's cousin is a doctor she
was earnign $30 a month in Cuba, now that she is in Venezuela she gets an
extra $100 a month out of the $1500 a month Venezuela pays for her. Isn't
that nice?

Post by Barry Schier
I just mutliply Cubans' salary figures by the U.S. dollar / Cuban
standard peso conversion rate to come up with an estimate of monthly
salaries of Cubans, which does not account for the fact that virtually
every major necessity of life which eat up the salaries of working
people in the United States is free or very cheap in Cuba, e.g., rents
are limited to 10% of one's income, education and medical care are free
and universal in Cuba.

Spoken like a man who hasn't been there Barry. Yes by American standards
the electric bill sounds very cheap at $5 a month. Unless, of course, you
only earn $6 a month. Also Barry what you'll find is that if you want to
actuall SEE a doctor and be treated you'll usually have to BRIBE the doctor
for $10 in CUCS.. Evey wonder why so few Cubans have cars? And 90% of those
are 50 and 60 year old American cars? Food may be cheap, again by American
standars, but isn't free and can cost most of the earnings of the average
Cuban worker.

Again you don't know what you are talking about.

[Miguel O'Pastel]

"krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:t0reg.1268$***@trnddc06...
| "Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:***@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
|
| > PL, please make up your mind which lie / deception to use. In message
| > #11, you've written "... which we all know they [Cubans] can't based
| > on a $12 a month salary. They can't even afford gasoline." Then in
| > this discussion contribution, you've written that there are "... very
| > few [Cubans] that make under $12 a month, Barry."
|
| Hate to tell you Barry - but PL is right. Most workers in Cuba are paid
| now about $6 a month. And pay moves up from there. 2 years ago it was
$4.50
| a month until father Fidel gave them a $1.50 pay raise. (Peso equivalent)
| The next large group makes about $8 a month. More skilled professions can
| make $15 a month. Importanmt jobs like a Judge (as my wife was) ear about
| $25 a month. My brother in law is an architect he makes $22 a month. My
| other brother in law is a college professor and famous artist and he is
| allowed a take home of about $30 a month. My wife's cousin is a doctor she
| was earnign $30 a month in Cuba, now that she is in Venezuela she gets an
| extra $100 a month out of the $1500 a month Venezuela pays for her. Isn't
| that nice?
|
| > I just mutliply Cubans' salary figures by the U.S. dollar / Cuban
| > standard peso conversion rate to come up with an estimate of monthly
| > salaries of Cubans, which does not account for the fact that virtually
| > every major necessity of life which eat up the salaries of working
| > people in the United States is free or very cheap in Cuba, e.g., rents
| > are limited to 10% of one's income, education and medical care are free
| > and universal in Cuba.
|
| Spoken like a man who hasn't been there Barry. Yes by American
standards
| the electric bill sounds very cheap at $5 a month. Unless, of course, you
| only earn $6 a month. Also Barry what you'll find is that if you want to
| actuall SEE a doctor and be treated you'll usually have to BRIBE the
doctor
| for $10 in CUCS.. Evey wonder why so few Cubans have cars? And 90% of
those
| are 50 and 60 year old American cars? Food may be cheap, again by
American
| standars, but isn't free and can cost most of the earnings of the average
| Cuban worker.
|
| Again you don't know what you are talking about.
|
|
|
I have been to Cuba and everyone I saw looked very healthy and had perfect
teeth. No evidence at all of malnutrition. They must hide the malnourished
somewhere.
M

[krp]

Post by Miguel O'Pastel
| > PL, please make up your mind which lie / deception to use. In message
| > #11, you've written "... which we all know they [Cubans] can't based
| > on a $12 a month salary. They can't even afford gasoline." Then in
| > this discussion contribution, you've written that there are "... very
| > few [Cubans] that make under $12 a month, Barry."
|
| Hate to tell you Barry - but PL is right. Most workers in Cuba are paid
| now about $6 a month. And pay moves up from there. 2 years ago it was
$4.50
| a month until father Fidel gave them a $1.50 pay raise. (Peso equivalent)
| The next large group makes about $8 a month. More skilled professions can
| make $15 a month. Importanmt jobs like a Judge (as my wife was) ear about
| $25 a month. My brother in law is an architect he makes $22 a month. My
| other brother in law is a college professor and famous artist and he is
| allowed a take home of about $30 a month. My wife's cousin is a doctor she
| was earnign $30 a month in Cuba, now that she is in Venezuela she gets an
| extra $100 a month out of the $1500 a month Venezuela pays for her. Isn't
| that nice?
|
| > I just mutliply Cubans' salary figures by the U.S. dollar / Cuban
| > standard peso conversion rate to come up with an estimate of monthly
| > salaries of Cubans, which does not account for the fact that virtually
| > every major necessity of life which eat up the salaries of working
| > people in the United States is free or very cheap in Cuba, e.g., rents
| > are limited to 10% of one's income, education and medical care are free
| > and universal in Cuba.
|
| Spoken like a man who hasn't been there Barry. Yes by American
standards
| the electric bill sounds very cheap at $5 a month. Unless, of course, you
| only earn $6 a month. Also Barry what you'll find is that if you want to
| actuall SEE a doctor and be treated you'll usually have to BRIBE the
doctor
| for $10 in CUCS.. Evey wonder why so few Cubans have cars? And 90% of
those
| are 50 and 60 year old American cars? Food may be cheap, again by
American
| standars, but isn't free and can cost most of the earnings of the average
| Cuban worker.
|
| Again you don't know what you are talking about.
I have been to Cuba and everyone I saw looked very healthy and had perfect
teeth. No evidence at all of malnutrition. They must hide the malnourished
somewhere.

Saw lots of Cubans without their clothing did you? Where? Funny thing.
Look as you walk around Cuba. The average Cuban man is about 5'7" and the
woman about 5'4" tall. Average weight about 135 for men and 100 for the
women. But look at Cubans after a while in the U.S. my step son added almost
40 pounds (mostly muscle). My wife added 15 pounds. Look at their kids in
the US within a generation you start seeing Cubans over 6 foot tall. So cut
the shit.

[PL]

Post by Barry Schier
PL, please make up your mind which lie / deception to use. In message
#11, you've written "... which we all know they [Cubans] can't based
on a $12 a month salary. They can't even afford gasoline." Then in
this discussion contribution, you've written that there are "... very
few [Cubans] that make under $12 a month, Barry."

No lie comrade Barry.
You are twisting my words.
I am saying exactly the same.
"Very few cubans that make under $12" can afford gas.
that is the meaning in context.
But thanks for showing how desperate you are getting.

Post by Barry Schier
I just mutliply Cubans' salary figures by the U.S. dollar / Cuban
standard peso conversion rate to come up with an estimate of monthly
salaries of Cubans,

and that is how much, Barry?
Note:
- what are pensions like; a large proportion of Cubans are on pensions, no?
- isn't it so that lots of people actually don't get any income at all i.i
that there is no minimum income support?

Some more info: (on salaries, not income)
"Taking into account that the average salary in Cuba is less than 200 Cuban
pesos, which are the equivalent of around $10.00 (U.S.)"
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2005/10/situation-of-human-rights-in-cuba.html
Also see:
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/02/despite-raises-incomes-still-fall.html

Post by Barry Schier
which does not account for the fact that virtually
every major necessity of life which eat up the salaries of working
people in the United States is free or very cheap in Cuba, e.g., rents
are limited to 10% of one's income,

Nope.
Rents go well above that.
and people can barely feed themselves on the salaries, no?
For years I have been asking you and other apologists of the Castro regime
to do me a "family budget" for a family of 4 on 400 pesos a month.
NONE has ever dared to attempt.
That exposes your collective lies.

Post by Barry Schier
education and medical care are free
and universal in Cuba.

False
see:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/apartheid_in_cuba.htm#II._Medical_apartheid.

Post by Barry Schier
"In Cuba the government ... it tells you what you can get ...," PL
writes.

The Committees for the Defence of the Revolution, the CDRs, and the women's
movement, the FMC, help manage the economy and administer the system, having
received their orders from above. The CDRs manage the rationing process, and
to get a new apartment, a different job, electrical goods, even a role on
game shows, depends on your connection to these organisations. And what use
is the FMC when the Cuban Family Code defines a woman's place as in the home
and women cannot do jobs like house painters, divers or grave diggers?


See : http://www.workersliberty.org/wlmags/wl54/cuba.htm

More: http://www.cubaverdad.net/cdr.htm

Post by Barry Schier
Elided thought was that "In Cuba, the government tells [one]
what [one] can get ..." at prices which are even lower than token
prices, i.e., a whole month of listed materials although, in reality,
usually enough for half to two-thirds of average needs)

a lie. It lasts 10 to 15 days and the ration lacks meat, ...

"in Cuba you'd better not lose your rationing card if you want that bar of
soap you are entitled to every three months. "
"Angel, a
former fisherman who works as a government inspector of neighborhood
bodegas that distribute the subsidized rations, acknowledges his country
is a mess. "How are people supposed to live on a half-pound of beef a
month?""
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-op-martinez30apr30,1,6125127.story
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/22390

Cubans complain that the monthly ration cards, which allow them to shop at
heavily subsidized shops, provide just 10 to 15 days' worth of food.
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y98/may98/18ex5.htm

At least 13 percent of
the population is clinically undernourished as the state food rationing
system now provides for only a week to ten days of basic alimentary needs.
Unemployment has reached 12 percent, based on official data, and as many as
30 percent of workers are displaced or underemployed. With real wages down
nearly 50 percent since 1989, and average salaries of US$10 per month,
university enrollment has fallen 46 percent as would-be college students opt
for more lucrative jobs in the tourism industry. Cuba is projected to have
Latin America's oldest population by 2025 with the island's demographic
growth rate now at 0.2 percent. The elderly are already the most vulnerable
as real pensions have declined by 42 percent and most pensioners survive on
the equivalent of US$4 per month."
http://ctp.iccas.miami.edu/FOCUS_Web/Issue43.htm

at worst:
"The Government subsidized ration is a food basket distributed to the
general population monthly through special outlets. This ration provides
1,378 Kcals and 45.8 grams of protein. The assessment mission observed
during the visit to the affected provinces that this food basket is not
always available, with the most common missing items being meat, eggs, oil
and chicken. The actual Government food basket distributed supplies only 550
Kcals and 23 grams of protein. This is a reflection of the decline in
production and the lack of hard currency for food imports. This emergency
operation is meant to guarantee a certain level of Kcal and proteins (see
Annex III) to the most vulnerable groups in the affected provinces who have
few coping mechanisms to deal with the shortfalls in the government
rationing"
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/AllDocsByUNID/5c27eb5c129e9223c1256680002cd542

April 1, 2003, 9:57PM


Cash from exiles in U.S. lets Cubans live, a little
By JENALIA MORENO
Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle


The ration list is meager, with each person allotted six eggs, six pounds of
rice and a quarter pound of ground beef mixed with soy.


Plenty of sugar and 12 ounces of coffee are included on the list, as those
are two of the few items Cuba produces in abundance.


Those monthly rations can get a person through 10 days of the month, said de
Salas-del Valle, adding, "What do you do for the other 20 days of the
month?"


http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/printstory.hts/business/energy/1847920


FROM CUBA
Peasants Hungry Due To Drought
LAS TUNAS, June 20 (Bertha Mexidor, Agencia Libertad) - Peasants in Las
Bolas, Botijal, San Alberto and Las Pulgas in this province say they are
experiencing a critical situation finding enough to put on the table.
The food they can buy under the government rationing system, they say, is
only enough for the first few days of the month. They sometimes make do with
mangoes, plums and yams instead of scarce staples rice and beans.
The prolonged drought this province has suffered made the food situation in
May and June critical.
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y00/jun00/22e2.htm U.S. dollar served as
lifeline
Vanessa Bauza


May 16, 2004


And they buy subsidized foods available through ration booklets.
Monthly rations include six pounds of rice per person, a pound of beans or
peas, eight eggs, a pound of chicken and a pound of fish, among other
staples. The rations generally last only about 10 days, Cubans say, leaving
them to depend on dollar stores, farmers' markets or the black market.


"It's not logical for my money to have so little value," said Rogelio
Zurita, a musician and fisherman, as he looked over Havana's port. "The fula
causes problems. It causes envy, some people have it others don't."


Information from The Associated Press was used to supplement this report.
Vanessa Bauzá can be reached at ***@yahoo.com.


Copyright © 2004, South Florida Sun-Sentinel

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/economy/fula.htm

Post by Barry Schier
at a total
charge of less than what I (or any other working-class American) spend
in a mere part of one day.

and now for the part that Barry hides: where do they get the rest?

Like almost everyone in this land of shimmering palms and frustrated
shoppers, Maria can rhyme off the prices of the goods for sale at Harris
Brothers, goods that she cannot hope to buy, not in a country where a
medical doctor, legitimately employed, earns the equivalent of less than
$20 a month.

Maria uses her fingers to enumerate the scandalous unaffordability of it
all: a pair of pants for $30 to $40; a pair of shoes for $50 to $60; a
container of milk for $5.80; a bar of soap for 45 centavos.In fact, the
furniture, electronics, toys, and clothing currently for sale at Harris
Brothers or at hundreds of other hard-currency retail outlets in Cuba
would be unlikely to impress most Canadian shoppers - prices are high
and quality is generally low - but they are a galling affront to most
people here, a reminder of all that they cannot afford and never will be
able to afford, not unless something drastic happens.

For the present, a great many Cubans have little choice but to resort to
some kind of fiddle in order to get by, working a la izquierda, as it's
known here, or "on the left."

They divert goods from their workplaces for resale on the street, for
example, or use state-owned vehicles for a little undocumented private
enterprise, or target free-spending tourists for incidental bribes.

"In Cuba, everybody is guilty of a crime of some sort," says a Western
official.

"Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to survive. But this permits the
government to maintain a climate of fear."

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1148335813728&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home

PL

[Barry Schier]

PL wrote, ".. We all know they [Cubans] can't based on a $12 a month
salary.
They can't even afford gasoline."

There's quite a few working people IN THE UNITED STATES who are finding
it increasing difficult to "even afford gasoline"!!!

While rents and gasoline price have increased nearly tenfold since I
exited my teenage years, the Consumer Price Index had barely
quadrupled. (The Consumer Price Index has a dual purpose: (1) to
serve as a figure, derived by the United States government from its
official statistics, to gauge prices and the cost of living; (2) to
prove the adage of Mark Twain (in turn derved from Disraeli) that there
are "Lies, damned lies, and statistics ..." )

I am supposed to be "lucky" that I live very near one of the cheapest
gas stations in metro Los Angeles - a great bargain at "only" $3.259
per gallon. By coincidence, I just received a photograph of a friend
who had visited taken 4 years ago; in the photo's background is a
gasoline station near Cal State Northridge with the gasoline price sign
stating $1.359 per gallon. My memories of first going to school looking
out the window while riding the bus and only occasionally seeing
"premium grade" gasoline prices as high as $0.329 per galllon. In 1974,
there were lines around the block at gasoline stations; the so-called
gasoline shortage" ended just as quickly as it started, and (by pure
coincidence) gasoline pump prices were several times their
pre-"shortage" levels.


These price increases are not because of a recent dramatic decline in
deaths of multi-million[year-old flora and fauna (i.e., the components
of "fossil fuels" such as gasoline)! ExxonMobil's profits last year
were $36-billion, that is almost more than entire national budget of
Cuba. The profits of the other oil giants were a bit less, but still of
the same magnitude.

As someone who has multiple friends who are refinery workers (who keep
an eye out for me about whenever there are job openings at their
workplace/s for which I could apply), I know that nary a penny of these
multibillion profits have benefited them; in fact, their employers have
been requesting CUTS in their employees' medical and retirement
benefits. The "jump" in gasoline prices is not because of what
happened 65-million-plus years ago, but because of a socioeconomic
system (i.e., capitalism) that has been around for about 65 decades and
had a progressive sociohistorical role (spurring economic,
national/democrat, and political revolutions) until roughly twice 65
years ago and reactionary ever since. While, consistent with the logic
of capitalism, working people get gouged at the fuel pump to fuel the
megaprofits of those capitalist companies, Venezuela (which, despite
reactionaries' characterizations of Venezuela President Hugo Chavez,
stepped up as Venezuelan-Cuban cooperation has deepened, is not even
socialist, but has a government which had arisen in the context of
popular mobilizations and often reflects the results of those
pressures) initiated a program wherein Venezuela supplies fuel to poor
families in the northeast United States at greatly reduced prices.
(That was a very minor motivation for my attending yesterday's
demonstration, sponsored by the May 20th Coalition, demanding "U.S.:
Hands Off Cuba and Venezuela!")

-- Barry Schier

[TORREBLANCA®]

Post by Mensajero
And the glorious totalitarian marxist revolution
has given cuba, the lowest rate of automobile
highway accidents and deaths in the hemesphere.
On second though, it could be because the people
can't afford to buy cars......

or worst, cannot buy cars at all !

Post by Mensajero
On 19 May 2006 19:58:51 -0700, "Barry Schier"

Post by Barry Schier
{Preface}
While it is possible to dismiss the parts in the article below re
certainty / anticipation / prediction of raising average Cuban life
expectancy to 80+ years in the very near future, and while may consider
life expectancy of 120 years (like the Maltese Falcon) "the stuff that
dreams are made of," one thing is impossible to dismiss without
sticking one's head in the sand (Footnote: or is it in the mud normally
used for slinging at the Cuban Revolution, its leaders and/or
accomplishments?) : the statistic of CURRENT average Cuban life
expectancy of 77+ years, a statistic for which there is a virtual
consensus including those supporting the Cuban Revolution (e.g., Granma
newspaper, which in many senses has been the voice of the Cuban
Revolution), those claiming political neturality (e.g., the United
Nations' World Health Organization, Pan-American Health Organization,
etc.), and those working overtime trying to overthrow the Cuban
Revolution (e.g., the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, in statistics
contained in the C.I.A. World Factbook).
When one considers that Cuba has few or none of the modern
multi-million-dollar "medical machines" common in U.S. and E.U.
hospitals (e.g., CAT scanners, MRI machines, etc.), it is all the more
impressive that Cuba is currently only very slightly behind the U.S.
and E.U. nations in average life expectancy (and other quiality of
life) statistics. Moreover, as I observed when viewing half-empty
Cuban hospital pharmacy shelves (even before I had taken nursing
courses and was thus neither interested in doing nor trained to do a
scientific and systematic search concerning this subject), there are
periodic (and, sometimes, perennial shortages) of many medicines
(including aspirin, which most Amercans take for granted).
Moreover, unlike the United States, where 40 million people have no
health insurance whatsoever, and most of the remainder pays a
significant proportion of their salary and/or Social Security benefits
for health care related expenses, Cuba has the highest proportion of
doctors to population in the world, and unlike the countries of the
capitalist world (even those, unlike the United States, with some
national health care program) available to people regardless of income
level: In Cuba, not only is health care FREE for all its citizens. but
education (from grade school through grad school!) is tuition-free.
Unlike the United States, where doctors who go out on "house calls"
are increasingly uncommon, in Cuba there is not a nationwide system of
family doctors and local clinics, but there also is an emphasis on
preventative medicine (instead of merely attempting to cure those who
are already sick). And there are about 15,000 Cuban doctors in
Venezuela (not to mention a few thousand in a list of other "Third
World" countries) volunteering to give health care principally to the
poor. (Tiny and relatively poor Cuba has more doctors volunteering
abroad than the World Health Organization.) Therefore, I disagree with
the editors of Granma; my choice of headline would be: "Life expectancy
in Cuba is now 77+ years."
- Barry
{Article}
GRANMA INTERNATIONAL
Havana. May 19, 2006
Life expectancy in Cuba soon to be 80 years
BY NAVIL GARCIA ALFONSO-Granma International staff writer-
AGING with health is the maxim of the 4th International Conference on
Satisfactory Longevity: an Integral Vision, which took place in
Cuba's Hotel Nacional, sponsored by the Caribbean Medical Association
and the 120 Years Club.
Doctor Eugenio Selman-Houssein Abdo highlighted the conditions
developed in Cuba to maintain good quality of life conditions,
including nutrition, health, physical activity, culture, motivation
and the environment.
"Cuba guarantees education and healthcare free of charge; full access
to sports and culture; it promotes healthy eating and keeps elderly
people motivated through their association with senior citizen
centers," Selman noted. "We also have a high-quality health
infrastructure that includes 430 multi-disciplinary teams for
gerontology services and a pharmaceutical industry that produces 80%
of the medications used in the country."
That combination of factors will soon make it possible for life
expectancy in Cuba, currently at 77 years, to reach 80 years,
according to Doctor Alberto Fern=E1ndez Seco, director of the National
Program for Attention to Older Adults.
However, noted Fern=E1ndez Seco, the aging of the population increases
the risks for disabilities and illnesses that come with it, which
requires specialized medical services for long-term patient care.
Several seniors who are considered stars of Cuban sport shared their
experiences and the importance of physical exercise for staying
healthy.
They included boxer Orlando Mart=EDnez, the first Olympic gold medalist
of the Revolution's sports programs, and baseball players M=E1ximo
Garc=EDa and Pedro Almenares, who left professional baseball to join
the Revolution's sports movement.
Jos=E9 Ram=F3n Fern=E1ndez, president of the Cuban Olympic Committee,
noted
that one main goal is for older athletes to stay active, so that they
can help develop the nation's sports with their valuable experience.
Likewise, he highlighted the importance of exercise as a guarantee
for reaching 120 years with a life that is pleasant, lucid and
useful.

[Miguel]

Post by TORREBLANCA®

Post by Mensajero
And the glorious totalitarian marxist revolution
has given cuba, the lowest rate of automobile
highway accidents and deaths in the hemesphere.
On second though, it could be because the people
can't afford to buy cars......

or worst, cannot buy cars at all !

Unless they are members of the NEW CORRUPT CLASS that rules the
country.

Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

[Miguel]

Post by TORREBLANCA®

Post by Mensajero
And the glorious totalitarian marxist revolution
has given cuba, the lowest rate of automobile
highway accidents and deaths in the hemesphere.
On second though, it could be because the people
can't afford to buy cars......

or worst, cannot buy cars at all !

Unless they are members of the NEW CORRUPT CLASS that rules the
country.

Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

[Miguel]

Post by TORREBLANCA®

Post by Mensajero
And the glorious totalitarian marxist revolution
has given cuba, the lowest rate of automobile
highway accidents and deaths in the hemesphere.
On second though, it could be because the people
can't afford to buy cars......

or worst, cannot buy cars at all !

Unless they are members of the NEW CORRUPT CLASS that rules the
country.

Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

[Pedro]

We got it and vomitted the first time, no need for spamming, asshole!

Post by Miguel

Post by TORREBLANCA®

Post by Mensajero
And the glorious totalitarian marxist revolution
has given cuba, the lowest rate of automobile
highway accidents and deaths in the hemesphere.
On second though, it could be because the people
can't afford to buy cars......

or worst, cannot buy cars at all !

Unless they are members of the NEW CORRUPT CLASS that rules the
country.
Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

[Miguel]

Post by TORREBLANCA®

Post by Mensajero
And the glorious totalitarian marxist revolution
has given cuba, the lowest rate of automobile
highway accidents and deaths in the hemesphere.
On second though, it could be because the people
can't afford to buy cars......

or worst, cannot buy cars at all !

Unless they are members of the NEW CORRUPT CLASS that rules the
country.

Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

[Miguel]

Post by TORREBLANCA®

Post by Mensajero
And the glorious totalitarian marxist revolution
has given cuba, the lowest rate of automobile
highway accidents and deaths in the hemesphere.
On second though, it could be because the people
can't afford to buy cars......

or worst, cannot buy cars at all !

Unless they are members of the NEW CORRUPT CLASS that rules the
country.

Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

[Miguel]

Post by TORREBLANCA®

Post by Mensajero
And the glorious totalitarian marxist revolution
has given cuba, the lowest rate of automobile
highway accidents and deaths in the hemesphere.
On second though, it could be because the people
can't afford to buy cars......

or worst, cannot buy cars at all !

Unless they are members of the NEW CORRUPT CLASS that rules the
country.

Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

[Miguel]

Post by TORREBLANCA®

Post by Mensajero
And the glorious totalitarian marxist revolution
has given cuba, the lowest rate of automobile
highway accidents and deaths in the hemesphere.
On second though, it could be because the people
can't afford to buy cars......

or worst, cannot buy cars at all !

Unless they are members of the NEW CORRUPT CLASS that rules the
country.

Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

[Miguel]

Post by TORREBLANCA®

Post by Mensajero
And the glorious totalitarian marxist revolution
has given cuba, the lowest rate of automobile
highway accidents and deaths in the hemesphere.
On second though, it could be because the people
can't afford to buy cars......

or worst, cannot buy cars at all !

Unless they are members of the NEW CORRUPT CLASS that rules the
country.

Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

[Pipilenca Guanaco]

Miguel:

Ese pueblo que sobrevive en condiciones de hambre, miseria, marginación,
represión, encarcelamiento, llega a edades de 80 años bajo Castro.
El pueblo salvadoreño no tiene las mismas expectativas de vida, a pesar
de la abundancia capitalista, la democracia neoliberal y libertad
capitalista.

Post by Miguel
Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

Todo esto debe contrastar con la expectativa de vida que hereda Evo
Morales en Boliva y lo que este heredará para el futuro.
Por contraste, ningún gobierno capitalista del continente americano ha
logrado mantener con vida a los hambrientos: en Guatemala, Nicaragua y
Argentina, se morían por docenas. Lo mismo en Haití. Mira que ni el
analfabetismo logran exterminar, ni la mortalidad infantil. Ni el
desempleo, ni el hambre.

Atte.
Pipilenca

[TORREBLANCA®]

Post by Pipilenca Guanaco
Ese pueblo que sobrevive en condiciones de hambre, miseria, marginación,
represión, encarcelamiento, llega a edades de 80 años bajo Castro.
El pueblo salvadoreño no tiene las mismas expectativas de vida, a pesar
de la abundancia capitalista, la democracia neoliberal y libertad
capitalista.

descarada y mañosamente disfraza el termino LIBERTAD . la libertad es
un derecho INALIENABLE del ser humano. le han preguntado a los cubanos
si quieren vivir 80 años bajo ese regimen ? le han preguntado a los
cubanos si quieren vivir un segundo bajo ese regimen ? com se sabe si
los cubanos quieren ese regimen ? porque no pueden los cubanos de la
isla participar en este foro y hablar po si mismos lo que ellos quieren
? usted es el encargado de decir lo que los cubanos quieren y necesitan
...... eso no me basta ! creo que usted miente descaradamente.

Post by Pipilenca Guanaco

Post by Miguel
Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

Todo esto debe contrastar con la expectativa de vida que hereda Evo
Morales en Boliva y lo que este heredará para el futuro.
Por contraste, ningún gobierno capitalista del continente americano ha
logrado mantener con vida a los hambrientos: en Guatemala, Nicaragua y
Argentina, se morían por docenas. Lo mismo en Haití. Mira que ni el
analfabetismo logran exterminar, ni la mortalidad infantil. Ni el
desempleo, ni el hambre.
Atte.
Pipilenca

[Pipilenca Guanaco]

TORREBLANCA® :

Pregúntale a los somalíes por esa libertad que pregonas. O a los que
viven en Sudán y Chad (que dicho sea de paso, so son comunistas).

Pregúntale a los haitianos y dominicanos por su libertad de vivir en
donde ellos decidan establecerse, cuan real es esa libertad
voluntarista. Es mañoso y descarado querer hacer creer que la voluntad y
el deseo, son libertad.

Lo que sí puedo asegurar, es que Castro pudo combatir la desnutrición,
el analfabetismo, la mortalidad infantil; pudo fortalecer la salud del
individuo por medio del deporte y alimentación. Y ningún gobierno
capitalista del continente tiene resultados superiores en todos esos
campos juntos. A nivel económico, el socialismo debe ser una perfecta
máquina económica: Forbes adjudicaba 100 millones de dólares a Castro
durante el año 2003, y 900 millones este año. (800 millones de ganancia
en sólo 3 años, cuando el mundo tiene crisis económica).

Por supuesto que tiene sus costos: no existen Pierre Cardin o Channel
No. 5 en almacenes exclusivos para potentados, ni élite nacional que
puede gozarlos. Curioso modelo el de Cuba.

Atte.
Pipilenca

Post by TORREBLANCA®
descarada y mañosamente disfraza el termino LIBERTAD . la libertad es
un derecho INALIENABLE del ser humano. le han preguntado a los cubanos
si quieren vivir 80 años bajo ese regimen ? le han preguntado a los
cubanos si quieren vivir un segundo bajo ese regimen ? com se sabe si
los cubanos quieren ese regimen ? porque no pueden los cubanos de la
isla participar en este foro y hablar po si mismos lo que ellos quieren
? usted es el encargado de decir lo que los cubanos quieren y necesitan
...... eso no me basta ! creo que usted miente descaradamente.

Post by Pipilenca Guanaco

Post by Miguel
Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

Todo esto debe contrastar con la expectativa de vida que hereda Evo
Morales en Boliva y lo que este heredará para el futuro.
Por contraste, ningún gobierno capitalista del continente americano ha
logrado mantener con vida a los hambrientos: en Guatemala, Nicaragua y
Argentina, se morían por docenas. Lo mismo en Haití. Mira que ni el
analfabetismo logran exterminar, ni la mortalidad infantil. Ni el
desempleo, ni el hambre.
Atte.
Pipilenca

[Pedro]

Miguel quiere que los pueblos Latinoamericanos sufran las mas pauperrimas
condiciones de manera que la gusanera Cubana regrese a los tiempos de la
dictadura, represion, racismo, y opresion de clases en Cuba.

Dejelo que siga soñando su pesadilla para Cuba, Cuba seguira siendo lo que
es, ni paraiso ni el infierno que la mafia Cubana proyecta al mundo.


Visite a la Haiti y la Republica Dominicana para que vea pobreza de verdad.


On Sun, 21 May 2006 12:44:27 -0700, Pipilenca Guanaco

Post by Pipilenca Guanaco
Ese pueblo que sobrevive en condiciones de hambre, miseria, marginación,
represión, encarcelamiento, llega a edades de 80 años bajo Castro.
El pueblo salvadoreño no tiene las mismas expectativas de vida, a pesar
de la abundancia capitalista, la democracia neoliberal y libertad
capitalista.

Post by Miguel
Besides, if it were only cars it would not be too bad. The only thing
the Castro-fascists can deliver, assuming it is true what they are
saying, is 80 years of misery.

Todo esto debe contrastar con la expectativa de vida que hereda Evo
Morales en Boliva y lo que este heredará para el futuro.
Por contraste, ningún gobierno capitalista del continente americano ha
logrado mantener con vida a los hambrientos: en Guatemala, Nicaragua y
Argentina, se morían por docenas. Lo mismo en Haití. Mira que ni el
analfabetismo logran exterminar, ni la mortalidad infantil. Ni el
desempleo, ni el hambre.
Atte.
Pipilenca

[Miguel]

Post by Pedro
Miguel quiere que los pueblos Latinoamericanos sufran las mas pauperrimas
condiciones de manera que la gusanera Cubana regrese a los tiempos de la
dictadura, represion, racismo, y opresion de clases en Cuba.

Mentira, mentira y mas mentiras de un mentiroso que solo desea vivir de
mitos y de mentiras.

Dejate de mentir:

--Nadie quiere volver a una dictadura te lo he dicho un millon de veces
pero tu sigues con tus infamias.

--- Nadie quiere volver a la represion de Batista, aunque que comparada
a la represion, mejor dicho, al TERROR castro-fascista, la de Batista
no era nada.

----Racismo????? En Cuba hay mas racismo hoy dia que antes de la
revolucion. El racismo en Cuba se concretaba a los clubs privados.
Ademas dejate de demagogia que Batista era un cubano de color y en 1940
fue elegido por el pueblo de Cuba que en aquel entonces era 70% blanco.
Es eso racismo?

----Opresion de Clases????? Eso es lo que existe ahora. Arriba esta la
cupula castro-fascista, corrupta e ineficiente que oprime a la gran
mayoria del pueblo.

Pipi, tu nunca has sido muy logico, pero hoy....te la comiste.

Post by Pedro
Dejelo que siga soñando su pesadilla para Cuba, Cuba seguira siendo lo que
es, ni paraiso ni el infierno que la mafia Cubana proyecta al mundo.

Cuba es un pais totalitario con un amo y se~nor que se llama Fidel
Castro.

Post by Pedro
Visite a la Haiti y la Republica Dominicana para que vea pobreza de verdad.

Haiti esta un poquito peor que Cuba, pero no mucho mas.

La Republica Dominicana de un punto de vista economico esta mucho mejor
que Cuba. Ademas, en RDi, los problemas se pueden discutir
abiertamente. Hay una prensa libre. El gobierno puede ser criticado.
Eso no ocurre en mi patria, que no es la tuya.

[Pipilenca Guanaco]

Miguel :

Por lo menos aprende a leer, para adjudicar al remitente correcto tus
respuestas. La logicidad debe ser tanto en el contenido, como en la
adjudicación del remitente para discutir el mismo tema.

Post by Miguel
Pipi, tu nunca has sido muy logico, pero hoy....te la comiste.

Por otro lado, no hay duda que sabes cuando yo escribo... Hasta los
cambios de estilo descubres y estudias.

Atte.
Pipilenca

[Miguel]

Post by Pipilenca Guanaco
Por lo menos aprende a leer, para adjudicar al remitente correcto tus
respuestas. La logicidad debe ser tanto en el contenido, como en la
adjudicación del remitente para discutir el mismo tema.

Post by Miguel
Pipi, tu nunca has sido muy logico, pero hoy....te la comiste.

Por otro lado, no hay duda que sabes cuando yo escribo... Hasta los
cambios de estilo descubres y estudias.

Yo estudiar tu estilo? No jorobes! Tu estilo es el de la esclavitud y
la sumision. Nadie que ame la libertad pierde el tiempo estudiando ese
estilo.

Post by Pipilenca Guanaco
Atte.
Pipilenca

[Pedro]

Post by Miguel

Post by Pedro
Miguel quiere que los pueblos Latinoamericanos sufran las mas
pauperrimas
condiciones de manera que la gusanera Cubana regrese a los tiempos de la
dictadura, represion, racismo, y opresion de clases en Cuba.

Mentira, mentira y mas mentiras de un mentiroso que solo desea vivir de
mitos y de mentiras.

La verdad aunque duela, brilla.

Post by Miguel
--Nadie quiere volver a una dictadura te lo he dicho un millon de veces
pero tu sigues con tus infamias.

Si las tacticas de la gusanera (asesinatos de Cubanos que difieren con
ustedes) so una muestra, con un boton basta.

Post by Miguel
--- Nadie quiere volver a la represion de Batista, aunque que comparada
a la represion, mejor dicho, al TERROR castro-fascista, la de Batista
no era nada.

A confesion de parte, relevo de prueba. Que mala memoria tienes.

Post by Miguel
----Racismo????? En Cuba hay mas racismo hoy dia que antes de la
revolucion. El racismo en Cuba se concretaba a los clubs privados.
Ademas dejate de demagogia que Batista era un cubano de color y en 1940
fue elegido por el pueblo de Cuba que en aquel entonces era 70% blanco.
Es eso racismo?

Falso. En parte por la infleucia yanqui, habia segregacion y leete algun
libro de historia Cubana objetivo o preguntale a los viejos negros en Cuba
a ver que dicen de tus ignorancia sobre este asunto. Playas, hoteles, todo
era protegido para evitar que los negros entraran. Hasta la identidad
Cubana se baso en negar la Africanidad. Oye, y quien mato a los cientos de
miembros del Partido Independiente del Color? Fidel?

No seas sonso.

Cuba: Primer territorio libre de America.

Post by Miguel
----Opresion de Clases????? Eso es lo que existe ahora. Arriba esta la
cupula castro-fascista, corrupta e ineficiente que oprime a la gran
mayoria del pueblo.

Esto si que es fenomenal. Las oligarquias estan en Miami, babeandose de la
rabia y la envidia. NUNCA MAS!

Post by Miguel
--

¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[Miguel]

Post by Pedro

Post by Miguel

Post by Pedro
Miguel quiere que los pueblos Latinoamericanos sufran las mas pauperrimas
condiciones de manera que la gusanera Cubana regrese a los tiempos de la
dictadura, represion, racismo, y opresion de clases en Cuba.

Mentira, mentira y mas mentiras de un mentiroso que solo desea vivir de
mitos y de mentiras.

La verdad aunque duela, brilla.

Te lo debes aplicar a ti, Victor

Post by Pedro

Post by Miguel
--Nadie quiere volver a una dictadura te lo he dicho un millon de veces
pero tu sigues con tus infamias.

Si las tacticas de la gusanera (asesinatos de Cubanos que difieren con
ustedes) so una muestra, con un boton basta.

De quien hablas de tu amo Fifo el Sadico?

Post by Pedro

Post by Miguel
--- Nadie quiere volver a la represion de Batista, aunque que comparada
a la represion, mejor dicho, al TERROR castro-fascista, la de Batista
no era nada.

A confesion de parte, relevo de prueba. Que mala memoria tienes.

Si? A que te refieres a los 20 mil muertos de Bohemia? Envia los
nombres y apellidos. En Cuba, los muertos no llegaron a 2 mil,
incluyendo las bajas de los soldados de Batista.

Post by Pedro

Post by Miguel
----Racismo????? En Cuba hay mas racismo hoy dia que antes de la
revolucion. El racismo en Cuba se concretaba a los clubs privados.
Ademas dejate de demagogia que Batista era un cubano de color y en 1940
fue elegido por el pueblo de Cuba que en aquel entonces era 70% blanco.
Es eso racismo?

Falso.

Que Batista no era un mulato?????

En parte por la infleucia yanqui, habia segregacion y leete algun

Post by Pedro
libro de historia Cubana objetivo o preguntale a los viejos negros en Cuba
a ver que dicen de tus ignorancia sobre este asunto. Playas, hoteles, todo
era protegido para evitar que los negros entraran.

Dime a que playas no podian entrar los negros? Eso es mentira. En
todas las playas habian partes publicas donde todo el mundo podia ir.
Si hablas de los clubs en la playa de Marianao, te digo que en la playa
de Marianao la Concha no era un club privado y en la Concha entraba
cualquiera que pagara. Ademas, cuando Cuba sea libre lo que es playa,
jamas podra ser de hoteles o de clubs privados. sera como en los EEUU
donde las playas son publicas.

Ven aca, mi socio,puede cualquier cubano ir a un hotel para extranjeros
hoy dia?

Nananina y tu lo sabes bien. La discriminacion ahora es hacia todos los
cubanos, es un verdadero apartheid.


Hasta la identidad

Post by Pedro
Cubana se baso en negar la Africanidad. Oye, y quien mato a los cientos de
miembros del Partido Independiente del Color? Fidel?
No seas sonso.
Cuba: Primer territorio libre de America.

Te quieres remontar a principios de la Republica? No se te olvide que
el presidente del Senado era Morua Delgado, un negro cuando esto
ocurrio. No estoy aqui para justificar lo que ocurrio en eso momento,
aunque reconozco que hubiera sido racismo permitir a un partido
politico basado unica y exclusivamente en el color de la piel. El que
propuso hacer ilegal ese partido politico fue un negro muy cubano y muy
inteligente que reconocio que ese partido politico hubiera sido
terrible para toda Cuba. En lugar de unir las razas las hubiera
dividido. Imaginate, si a renglon seguido los blancos hubieran creado
en Partido de los Blancos.

Ademas, estaba hablando de Batista. El era un cubano de color y fue
presidente y dictador de Cuba, esa es la verdad. Y era verdad que la
gran mayoria de los votaban por Batista eran mulatos y negros.

Pero volvamos al presente. Ven aca, mi socio, cuantos negros hay dentro
de la cupula del regimen de Fifo?
Quieres ver a la mafia de la Habana? Los cubanos de color, negros y
mulatos, creo que son tres. Esto es de hace algunos a~nos pero las
cosas no han cambiado y tu lo sabes.

http://www.exilio.com/mafia/mafiosos.html

Post by Pedro

Post by Miguel
----Opresion de Clases????? Eso es lo que existe ahora. Arriba esta la
cupula castro-fascista, corrupta e ineficiente que oprime a la gran
mayoria del pueblo.

Esto si que es fenomenal. Las oligarquias estan en Miami, babeandose de la
rabia y la envidia. NUNCA MAS!

Permite elecciones libres y veras a Fifolandia irse para casa de yuca.

Post by Pedro

Post by Miguel
--

¡Viva Puerto Rico Libre de la locura que es la Kuba de Kastro!