chi.you (txiv yawg), ancestor of hmong people

[zhen]

These are 3 parts of a video focusing on Txiv Yawg. It is in English,
so we Hmong Americans can understand. I hope you enjoy this video.

[l***@gmail.com]

The videos are interesting.... Keep in mind, however, what the
anchor, Ji Xiaojun mentioned: "...at least *that* was the popular
version of events... the historians [perhaps he also means
archaeologists], however, are a little skeptical..."

Now, this is definitely not to say that we--you or I--know the "facts"
of "ancient history" any "better"!

I would like to present and challenge us to answer the following
questions: How did we get from the name "Chiyou" to "Txiv Yawg/
Yawm"? Does "Chiyou" actually translate into "Grand-father,"
according to the Chinese locals or historians? And, if this is so,
which dialect or language was Chiyou and his people--the Juili--
speaking?

As I recall, my first encounter with this name-association (Chiyou =
Txiv Yawg) was when I watched Yuepheng Xiong's video documentary,
which was produced, I believe, several years ago, during his trip(s)
to China. After that period, I started to see booths at New Years,
such as the Hmong celebration in Fresno, which asked for donations
for, I think (and cannot recall well), Chiyou research and/or monument
beautification? But is Yuepheng Xiong's video documentary the only
source from which some of you also draw? Are there others out there
who have done documentaries or research on this topic?

--Lajntxiag

http://youtu.be/xORcm56pMKY
These are 3 parts of a video focusing on Txiv Yawg. It is in English,
so we Hmong Americans can understand. I hope you enjoy this video.

[zhen]

laj

Post by l***@gmail.com
The videos are interesting.... Keep in mind, however, what the
anchor, Ji Xiaojun mentioned: "...at least *that* was the popular
version of events... the historians [perhaps he also means
archaeologists], however, are a little skeptical..."

but that is any 'history' (form of story telling) isn't it?

Post by l***@gmail.com
I would like to present and challenge us to answer the following
questions: How did we get from the name "Chiyou" to "Txiv Yawg/
Yawm"? Does "Chiyou" actually translate into "Grand-father,"
according to the Chinese locals or historians? And, if this is so,
which dialect or language was Chiyou and his people--the Juili--
speaking?

yes, that is a challenging question. some would question the converse,
'how did they get chi.you from txiv yawg?' on this question of origin,
one important point, stated by ywj pheej xyooj, a point that i agree
with, is 'saib seb lus hmoob txhais tawm los lus suav txhais tawm?'
nyob hauv lus suav, lawv yeej txhais tsis tawm tau tias, chi.you, yog
dab tsi li, BUT, nyob hauv lus hmoob, peb yeej txhais tawm tau. also,
peb hmoob yeej txhais tsis tawm tau tias huang.di + yan.di yog dab tsi
li, BUT, nyob hauv lus suav, suav yeej txhais tawm tau (huang =
yellow, di = emperor, yan = fire, di = emperor). qhov kuv xav xwb mas,
chi.you yog sinicization txiv.yawg, ib yam nkaus li miao yog
sinicization hmoob. peb teej peb tug, peb yeej txhais tawm tau, luag
teej luag tug, peb yeej txhais tsis tawm tau.

another piv txwv to counter the above. lub npe, wu ba.yue, pheej hnov
hnov + nyeem lawv hu nws ua vwj paj yias. lus suav tsis muaj tus
consonant "v", tiam si, lawv siv "w" in place of "v" (i.e. wang =
vang, wu = vu). hauv lus suav, ba.yue yog yim hli (ba = yim/8, yue =
hli). nyob hauv lus suav ces, lawv hu nws ua vwj yim hli. raws li ntau
ntau hom tib neeg pom pom los lawm, cov me nyuam yug lub 8 hli ntau
tus ces tuag xwb xwb li, TIAM SI, cov ho ciaj no ces, ho ntse ntse
kiag li. wu ba.yue ntse heev heev thiab yeej muaj keeb kwm hais tias
nws yog yug 8 hli hauv plab tawm los, ces suav thiaj li hu vwj 8 hli.
tiam si, hmoob ho hu ua paj yias. so in this case, there is meaning in
both languages, but still, wu ba.yue yeej yog hmoob.

saib seb nej ho puas tau hnov tias me nyuam yug 8 hli ntau tus ces
tuag. cov yug lub 7 hli mas ciaj, yug lub 9 hli mas ciaj, tiam si, ua
li cas yug 8 hli no ho tuag. thaum kuv hais 7 hli, 8 hli, 9 hli, kuv
tsis yog hais july, august, september nawb. kuv hais the months of
pregnancy.

[t***@hotmail.com]

lets look at this name "txiv yawm" from the perspective of an
uneducated farmer....kvu txiv cov niag tshoob...ib sim neej nws yeej
tsi paub tias hmoob fuabtais lub npe hu li cas...kuv los yeej tsi tau
hnov "txiv yaawm" anywhere else (except in kwvtxhiaj thiab cov
tshoob)... UNTIL I WATCHED YWJPHEE'S VIDEO TOO...

in cov zaj tshoob, nws yeej hais tias "txij yawm (txiv yawm)" qhia
moob ua neej...ua ua mus txog nws qhia hmoob ua tshoob by using "nyuj
twm nees (note that chiyou honor twm thiab)" coj los phij cuam rau
vauv/ntxhais mus ua neej...THE BEST PRESENT EVER..AND HONORABLE
ANIMAL...ces mam li ua ua mus involve rau nkauj ntsuab nraug nag...and
then muab "xib nyawj" mus txhaws qhov zeb...es li "tso dej nyob nyab
ntiajteb"....I WOUDLN'T BE SURPRISE IF THIS STORY IS THE SAME STORY OF
HUONG DI BREAKING THE DAM TO FLOOD COV MIAO NTAWD...temsis over time,
myabe hmoob xij tias "puag thaum ub" no lawm xwb...i asked ywjpheej
this question before...and i asked dr pao this question
before...temsis they both seem to say "txiv yawm" in cov tshoob is not
the same txiv yawm as in "chiyou"....

txiv yawm is also mentioned in kuv txiv cov niag kwvtxhiaj..zaj tsa
hauv toj..."peb pojkoob yawm txiv, poj txig txij yawg tus ncej ntxhe
ncej ntxhoo ntaug leev rov los poob".....note that kuv txiv has never
heard of "chiyou" before..or the name "txivyawm (as in chiyou)"
before...temsis nws cov zaj haiv mas muaj txiv yawm lub npe.....

the reason why kuv xav tias the chiyou in history is the same
"txivyawm" in zajtshoob is that...hmoob cov "zaj/haiv" kuv xav tias
yuav tsi originate anywhere else...but during or shortly after
chiyou's death...the time of "great nation"...or during "chiyou's"
great name echoing with time....ua ua ces...tomqab no, peb siv nws lub
npe los peb tsi paub nws yog leejtwg lawm xwb...

yaweh

[l***@gmail.com]

"I WOUDLN'T BE SURPRISE IF THIS STORY IS THE SAME STORY OF
HUONG DI BREAKING THE DAM TO FLOOD COV MIAO NTAWD"

Well...we still have yet to establish--beyond a certain level of
doubt--a number of things:

1. That Emperior Huong Di and his associates built the dams (three of
them according to the CCTV video?), and that the physical location
allowed for a "lake" to be made, which held incredible volumes of
water;

2. That Chiyou and his army did not know anything about those dams
during the building stages, despite them being built relatively close
to Chiyou's stronghold. (It must have taken longer than just a few
weeks or months to build those gigantic dams.... made out of what?
(stones, wood, etc?);

3. That there remains archaeological evidence of those (gigantic)
dams;

4. That Chiyou's enemies somehow--at that time and without any
firearms--breached the dam at the right time and places [perhaps when
Chiyou's army was asleep or completely unaware?] (what kind of
technology existed at that time for the building and breaching of
dams?);

5. That when the dam broke it simply flooded and killed off Chiyou's
army....and not much counter-assault occurred;

6. That, "given" that Chiyou's huge army "fell" around "that area of
land," there must remain, if archaeologists dig deep or wide or long
enough, some evidence of weaponry or man-made artifacts.

All of these and more remain to be established...

--Lajntxiag

Post by t***@hotmail.com
lets look at this name "txiv yawm" from the perspective of an
uneducated farmer....kvu txiv cov niag tshoob...ib sim neej nws yeej
tsi paub tias hmoob fuabtais lub npe hu li cas...kuv los yeej tsi tau
hnov "txiv yaawm" anywhere else (except in kwvtxhiaj thiab cov
tshoob)... UNTIL I WATCHED YWJPHEE'S VIDEO TOO...
in cov zaj tshoob, nws yeej hais tias "txij yawm (txiv yawm)" qhia
moob ua neej...ua ua mus txog nws qhia hmoob ua tshoob by using "nyuj
twm nees (note that chiyou honor twm thiab)" coj los phij cuam rau
vauv/ntxhais mus ua neej...THE BEST PRESENT EVER..AND HONORABLE
ANIMAL...ces mam li ua ua mus involve rau nkauj ntsuab nraug nag...and
then muab "xib nyawj" mus txhaws qhov zeb...es li "tso dej nyob nyab
ntiajteb"....I WOUDLN'T BE SURPRISE IF THIS STORY IS THE SAME STORY OF
HUONG DI BREAKING THE DAM TO FLOOD COV MIAO NTAWD...temsis over time,
myabe hmoob xij tias "puag thaum ub" no lawm xwb...i asked ywjpheej
this question before...and i asked dr pao this question
before...temsis they both seem to say "txiv yawm" in cov tshoob is not
the same txiv yawm as in "chiyou"....
txiv yawm is also mentioned in kuv txiv cov niag kwvtxhiaj..zaj tsa
hauv toj..."peb pojkoob yawm txiv, poj txig txij yawg tus ncej ntxhe
ncej ntxhoo ntaug leev rov los poob".....note that kuv txiv has never
heard of "chiyou" before..or the name "txivyawm (as in chiyou)"
before...temsis nws cov zaj haiv mas muaj txiv yawm lub npe.....
the reason why kuv xav tias the chiyou in history is the same
"txivyawm" in zajtshoob is that...hmoob cov "zaj/haiv" kuv xav tias
yuav tsi originate anywhere else...but during or shortly after
chiyou's death...the time of "great nation"...or during "chiyou's"
great name echoing with time....ua ua ces...tomqab no, peb siv nws lub
npe los peb tsi paub nws yog leejtwg lawm xwb...
yaweh

[zhen]

laj,

Post by l***@gmail.com
Well...we still have yet to establish--beyond a certain level of

at which level of certainty, if certainty is quantified in terms of
percentiles, would you say something is justified/validated to be
rendered as historically accurate?

but i do agree with your points, that it does not seem plausible on
its face. according to some historians, controlling the water/rivers/
flooding was accomplished later by Yu The Great. if we are to believe
that huang.di had mastered aquatic engineering to this depth (no pun
intended) long before Yu, then this history is anachronistic.

the more 'down to earth' (still, embedded with magical devices), is
that while chi.you relied on the fog to favor him in the battle,
huang.di had already devised the compass to guide his military
maneuvers.

[l***@gmail.com]

Sure, those are ideas to consider... And they may be so. But they
raise more questions than answers. What you are saying--and what you
said Yuepheng Xiong said--seems to suggest that the "Chinese" simply
imitated the phrase "Txiv Yawg" and therefore, history has that, we
ended up with a non-translatable, Latinized term "Chiyou."

However, can we assume that, despite all those decades of fighting
each other, the enemies of "Chiyou" could not speak/understand
Chiyou's "native language" [putting this in quote, because it has NOT
been established anywhere what Chiyou's native language was], AND that
they simply imitated "Txiv Yawg" with, presumably, "no idea" who "Txiv
Yawg" was, or why they are--at that time--sending thousands of troops
after him?

--Lajntxiag

Post by zhen
laj

Post by l***@gmail.com
The videos are interesting.... Keep in mind, however, what the
anchor, Ji Xiaojun mentioned: "...at least *that* was the popular
version of events... the historians [perhaps he also means
archaeologists], however, are a little skeptical..."

but that is any 'history' (form of story telling) isn't it?

Post by l***@gmail.com
I would like to present and challenge us to answer the following
questions: How did we get from the name "Chiyou" to "Txiv Yawg/
Yawm"? Does "Chiyou" actually translate into "Grand-father,"
according to the Chinese locals or historians? And, if this is so,
which dialect or language was Chiyou and his people--the Juili--
speaking?

yes, that is a challenging question. some would question the converse,
'how did they get chi.you from txiv yawg?' on this question of origin,
one important point, stated by ywj pheej xyooj, a point that i agree
with, is 'saib seb lus hmoob txhais tawm los lus suav txhais tawm?'
nyob hauv lus suav, lawv yeej txhais tsis tawm tau tias, chi.you, yog
dab tsi li, BUT, nyob hauv lus hmoob, peb yeej txhais tawm tau. also,
peb hmoob yeej txhais tsis tawm tau tias huang.di + yan.di yog dab tsi
li, BUT, nyob hauv lus suav, suav yeej txhais tawm tau (huang =
yellow, di = emperor, yan = fire, di = emperor). qhov kuv xav xwb mas,
chi.you yog sinicization txiv.yawg, ib yam nkaus li miao yog
sinicization hmoob. peb teej peb tug, peb yeej txhais tawm tau, luag
teej luag tug, peb yeej txhais tsis tawm tau.
another piv txwv to counter the above. lub npe, wu ba.yue, pheej hnov
hnov + nyeem lawv hu nws ua vwj paj yias. lus suav tsis muaj tus
consonant "v", tiam si, lawv siv "w" in place of "v" (i.e. wang =
vang, wu = vu). hauv lus suav, ba.yue yog yim hli (ba = yim/8, yue =
hli). nyob hauv lus suav ces, lawv hu nws ua vwj yim hli. raws li ntau
ntau hom tib neeg pom pom los lawm, cov me nyuam yug lub 8 hli ntau
tus ces tuag xwb xwb li, TIAM SI, cov ho ciaj no ces, ho ntse ntse
kiag li. wu ba.yue ntse heev heev thiab yeej muaj keeb kwm hais tias
nws yog yug 8 hli hauv plab tawm los, ces suav thiaj li hu vwj 8 hli.
tiam si, hmoob ho hu ua paj yias. so in this case, there is meaning in
both languages, but still, wu ba.yue yeej yog hmoob.
saib seb nej ho puas tau hnov tias me nyuam yug 8 hli ntau tus ces
tuag. cov yug lub 7 hli mas ciaj, yug lub 9 hli mas ciaj, tiam si, ua
li cas yug 8 hli no ho tuag. thaum kuv hais 7 hli, 8 hli, 9 hli, kuv
tsis yog hais july, august, september nawb. kuv hais the months of
pregnancy.

[zhen]

laj,

Post by l***@gmail.com
Sure, those are ideas to consider... And they may be so. But they
raise more questions than answers. What you are saying--and what you
said Yuepheng Xiong said--seems to suggest that the "Chinese" simply
imitated the phrase "Txiv Yawg" and therefore, history has that, we
ended up with a non-translatable, Latinized term "Chiyou."

that was one point in arguing that txiv yawg yog hmoob. if txiv yawg
tsis yog hmoob why 1) suav ho muab tua? 2) suav ho hais tias yog hmoob/
miao? 3) suav ho txhais tsis tawm txiv yawg yog dab tsi? let the
questions be raised, and for each question, have a null hypothesis as
well as an alternative hypothesis. find the evidence so that you mail
fail to reject the null hypothesis, or otherwise. questioning is good,
and prejudice (preset beliefs) should be admitted (allowed) BUT
modified by and reflective of the evidence. this approach is part of
the scientific method, and all scholars in most, if not all, fields of
study follow this empirical approach to solving problems and/or
answering questions. rau kuv tus kheej, kuv yeej NOOG txaus nkaus qhov
kuv NOOG tau lawm, kuv yeej TSIS NTSEEG txaus nkaus qhov kuv TSIS
NTSEEG lawm, but, the evidence keep pointing in that direction.

so, koj noog koj tus kheej (question) and koj nrhiav (soj ntsuam)
(research) mus saib seb koj qhov hypothesis twg is supported by the
evidence. linguistically, culturally, historically, yeej muaj pov
thawj hais tias txiv yawg yog hmoob (los hmoob yog txiv yawg cov
noob).

Post by l***@gmail.com
However, can we assume that, despite all those decades of fighting
each other, the enemies of "Chiyou" could not speak/understand
Chiyou's "native language" [putting this in quote, because it has NOT
been established anywhere what Chiyou's native language was], AND that
they simply imitated "Txiv Yawg" with, presumably, "no idea" who "Txiv
Yawg" was, or why they are--at that time--sending thousands of troops
after him?

koj xav li koj dab tsi maj? chi.you, huang.di, yan.di lawv nyob sib ze
heev nab. koj ntsia daim map xwb lawv 3 lub zos no koj cia li muab
hais tias nyob ua ke kiag no los tau nab. remember, intermarriage and
diplomacy between ethnic han and ethnic hmong was recorded as early as
the san.miao time. as for the jiu.li time, i have yet to come across
documentations of intermarriage and diplomacy.

if linguistic differences is a function of time, and the relationship
is proportional, then, given what we know about lus suav lus hmoob
today, which is that they are very similar, what is your conclusion,
regressing this relationship, on the level of similarity thousands of
years back then?

[l***@gmail.com]

1) Suav "Han Dynasty" tsis yog tua neeg "Hmoob" nkaus xwb... lawv tua
lwm cov neeg, nrog rau tej neeg muaj keeb kwm "Han" uas yog lawv "yeeb
ncuab" tib si; 2) Kuv tsis tau pom evidence tias Suav hu "Chiyou" hais
tias nws yog "Hmoob". Tab txawm Suav hais tias nws yog "Miao," no los
tsis tau ntaus nqi tau tias yog "Hmoob", vim, raws li peb twb paub,
"Miao" muaj ntau pab ntau pawg tsis yog xam Hmoob xwb; 3) Suav lus
yeej "txhais tsis tawm"/txhais tsis tau ntau pua tsav yam lo lus, tsis
yog lo lus "Chiyou" no xwb, pob?

Vim li cas, rau ib txhia Hmoob Miskas, Chiyou *yuav tsum yog* "Txiv
Yawg" xwb xwb li?

--Lajntxiag


let the

Post by zhen
questions be raised, and for each question, have a null hypothesis as
well as an alternative hypothesis. find the evidence so that you mail
fail to reject the null hypothesis, or otherwise. questioning is good,
and prejudice (preset beliefs) should be admitted (allowed) BUT
modified by and reflective of the evidence. this approach is part of
the scientific method, and all scholars in most, if not all, fields of
study follow this empirical approach to solving problems and/or
answering questions. rau kuv tus kheej, kuv yeej NOOG txaus nkaus qhov
kuv NOOG tau lawm, kuv yeej TSIS NTSEEG txaus nkaus qhov kuv TSIS
NTSEEG lawm, but, the evidence keep pointing in that direction.
so, koj noog koj tus kheej (question) and koj nrhiav (soj ntsuam)
(research) mus saib seb koj qhov hypothesis twg is supported by the
evidence. linguistically, culturally, historically, yeej muaj pov
thawj hais tias txiv yawg yog hmoob (los hmoob yog txiv yawg cov
noob).

Post by l***@gmail.com
However, can we assume that, despite all those decades of fighting
each other, the enemies of "Chiyou" could not speak/understand
Chiyou's "native language" [putting this in quote, because it has NOT
been established anywhere what Chiyou's native language was], AND that
they simply imitated "Txiv Yawg" with, presumably, "no idea" who "Txiv
Yawg" was, or why they are--at that time--sending thousands of troops
after him?

koj xav li koj dab tsi maj? chi.you, huang.di, yan.di lawv nyob sib ze
heev nab. koj ntsia daim map xwb lawv 3 lub zos no koj cia li muab
hais tias nyob ua ke kiag no los tau nab. remember, intermarriage and
diplomacy between ethnic han and ethnic hmong was recorded as early as
the san.miao time. as for the jiu.li time, i have yet to come across
documentations of intermarriage and diplomacy.
if linguistic differences is a function of time, and the relationship
is proportional, then, given what we know about lus suav lus hmoob
today, which is that they are very similar, what is your conclusion,
regressing this relationship, on the level of similarity thousands of
years back then?

[zhen]

laj,

Post by l***@gmail.com
1) Suav "Han Dynasty" tsis yog tua neeg "Hmoob" nkaus xwb... lawv tua
lwm cov neeg, nrog rau tej neeg muaj keeb kwm "Han" uas yog lawv "yeeb
ncuab" tib si;

yog ler, suav yeej tua suav tiag. remember, tom qab txiv yawg lawv swb
rog lawm, haung.di thiab yan.di nkawv twb sib tua thiab. TIAM SI, koj
xav ne, vim li cas huang.di thiab yan.di thiaj sib koom tes tua txiv
yawg? suav yeej hais tias huang.di thiab yan.di nkawv yog ib hom neeg
(some go so far as to say, nkawv yog ob kwv tij). you already know how
politiks in the far east works, you unite along ethnic lines. even
niaj hnub no, hmoob yeej unite along common grounds such as the clan,
right? and don't forget the 'dynasty' where a family and its line come
to rule. txiv yawg was already viewed as 'different', and definitely
not 'han', and so, we should admit that much if we are to deny him any
ethnicity.

Post by l***@gmail.com
2) Kuv tsis tau pom evidence tias Suav hu "Chiyou" hais
tias nws yog "Hmoob". Tab txawm Suav hais tias nws yog "Miao," no los
tsis tau ntaus nqi tau tias yog "Hmoob", vim, raws li peb twb paub,
"Miao" muaj ntau pab ntau pawg tsis yog xam Hmoob xwb;

suav hais tias nws yog 'miao'. miao no yeej yog hmoob nkaus nkaus xwb.
koj yuav tau mus nyeem thiab research kom txaus. lawv yeej hais, cov
miao es sib tua nrog suav heev tshaj yog cov khiav los mus rau qab teb
sab hnub poob. niaj hnub no, cov 'miao' no twb yog cov hu lawv tus
kheej ua 'hmoob' no neb...

remember, txawm suav muab peb yais ua ntau pab ntau pawg, los koj
txhob yuam kev es xav tias hu ua hmoob no niam muaj ntau pab ntau pawg
npaum li suav cuab rau peb. NO. that is truly mental colonization in
my opinion. peb hmoob tsuas paub tias peb yog hmoob xwb. that is that,
or do you think hmoob no muaj li ub li no? do you think hmoob lees nws
yog nws ib pab? hmoob dawb nws yog nws ib pab? hmoob siav nws yog nws
ib pab? hmoob nyoos nws yog nws ib pab? these are superficial, if not
fictitious, classifications and taxonomies.

the three major groups classified under 'miao' no tag nrho lees paub
tias lawv yog txiv yawg cov noob. so, even if i admit that there is
2-3 pab pawg hmoob li ub li no, they ALL claim lineage. so, what say
you? es thaum kuv mus tim suav teb, kuv hu lawv ua hmoob no lawv twb
tsis xav li cas (lawv tsuas hais nyias muaj nyias dialect). tsis tag
li ntawv, lawv yeej hais tias cov nom tswv hmoob khiav, cov ruam thiaj
li nyob tom qab (these are their own words). tiam si, kuv noog lawv
txog miao no mas lawv yeej mob siab heev heev, especially, thaum tseem
hais miao.zi no mas sib ntaus kiag tam sim ntawv.

Post by l***@gmail.com
3) Suav lus
yeej "txhais tsis tawm"/txhais tsis tau ntau pua tsav yam lo lus, tsis
yog lo lus "Chiyou" no xwb, pob?

not sure if i understand this question.

Post by l***@gmail.com
Vim li cas, rau ib txhia Hmoob Miskas, Chiyou *yuav tsum yog* "Txiv
Yawg" xwb xwb li?

tsis yog rau hmoob amekas xwb, hmoob suav los tib yam nkaus...

[Hmong-Lao]

Ob tug PY zhen & Lajntxiag,
Tsis yog Miao thiaj claim hais tias Chiyou yog lawv poj kawb yawm txwv
xwb, lwm hais neeg xws li Korean los yeej claim tib yam. Lo lus Txiv
Yawg no tsis yog Ywj Pheej Xyooj lam muab txhais, txhua haiv uas lawv
yog Miao puav leej muaj dabneeg, zajhaiv uas hais txog Txiv Yawg.

See Korean's version:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaoji_Hwanung_of_Baedal

HL

[t***@hotmail.com]

hl

luag yeej hais dabneeg tias chiyou tus tub uas mus qaumteb mus tsim
tau cov mongolians...cov mus qab teb mus tsim tau cov koreans..and cov
uas remain thiaj tsim tau cov miao no ne...

[zhen]

PY HL,

the koreans have been 'blamed' for 'cultural plagiarism'. they claim
anything and everything, it seems. they claim they invented writing,
yin/yang, confucianism, chi.you, etc.... just google and you will see
for yourself. be careful...

tsis yog kaus lim thiaj li lees txiv yawg xwb, suav (ethnic han) los
yeej lees txiv yawg thiab. raws li kuv xav, suav lees txiv yawg es
thiaj li pacify tau hmoob. kaus lim lees txiv yawg vim lawv xav
"nyiag" txiv yawg tej txiaj ntsim ua lawv tug. even among kaus lim,
lawv twb tsis ntseeg hais tias chi woo yog lawv ib tug pog yawm txwv
txoob.

Post by Hmong-Lao
Ob tug PY zhen & Lajntxiag,
Tsis yog Miao thiaj claim hais tias Chiyou yog lawv poj kawb yawm txwv
xwb, lwm hais neeg xws li Korean los yeej claim tib yam. Lo lus Txiv
Yawg no tsis yog Ywj Pheej Xyooj lam muab txhais, txhua haiv uas lawv
yog Miao puav leej muaj dabneeg, zajhaiv uas hais txog Txiv Yawg.
See Korean's version:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaoji_Hwanung_of_Baedal
HL

[Hmong-Lao]

Py Tsuj,
Kuv yeej tau hnov qhov dabneeg ko lawm thiab. Tabsis thaum ntawd yus
tsis tau cuab pob ntseg kom zoo. Raws li nco tau tsimtsawv, Txiv Yawm
swb rog ces nws 3 tug tub coj cov neeg khiav ua 3 pab. Tabsis muaj
txoj Hmoo, ntau pua xyoo tom qab, lawv rov los sib sau tau ua ke dua,
ces thiaj li los ciaj lub teb chaws "Peb Hmoov" (San Miao). Qhov uas
lawv hu lawv lub teb chaws ua 3 Hmoov no mas vim yog lawv 3 kwv tij
txoj hmoov es thiaj tau rov los ua ke dua. Tom qab no ces los lus
"Hmoov" thiaj li hloov los ua "Hmoob" lawm. Ces tsam no, peb thiaj
tsuas hais tias "Peb Hmoob" no lwm xwb. Zaj dabneeg no, tej zaum Lis
Txais yuav paub zoo. Vim nyob rau koom haum Haum Xeeb, Lis Txais lawv
teev ib tug mlom uas muaj 3 lub taub hau Hmoob, lawv hu nws ua "Vaj
Peb Hmoob".

PY zhen,
Kuv yeej pom muaj tus thuam Korean txog tej koj hais, tabsis, leej twg
los yeej tsis muaj pov thawj tim khawv kom tseeb. Thiab cov neeg thuam
ntawd tsis ntxim yog neeg paub tab, vim lawv siv cov lus tsis polite.
Yuav tsum tsis txhob mloog cov neeg tsis paub tab no hais, cia yus mam
zeem yus xwb mas thiaj tseeb. Yog yuav saib saum cev nqaij daim tawv
xwb ces, Korean thiab Mongols yeej muaj tso zoo li Hmoob ntau dua li
Suav Han. Kuv los yeej ntseeg hais tias ib txhia neeg Han yeej yog
Chiyou cov xeebleej xeebntxwv thiab. Qhov no los yeej muaj tseeb, vim
Hmoob txia mus ua suab coob heev suav tsis txheeb.

Lam saib cov duab no seb nej ho xav li cas.

http://flickr.com/photos/***@N00/30419794/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/handytom/2865919852/
http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6942574

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HL

[Lonewriter]

It always amazed me how often a race or people, instead of creating
their own present power base, seek to create power from history,
legends, and prophecy. To me this is a sign of weakness not strength.


Dai

Post by Hmong-Lao
Py Tsuj,
Kuv yeej tau hnov qhov dabneeg ko lawm thiab. Tabsis thaum ntawd yus
tsis tau cuab pob ntseg kom zoo. Raws li nco tau tsimtsawv, Txiv Yawm
swb rog ces nws 3 tug tub coj cov neeg khiav ua 3 pab. Tabsis muaj
txoj Hmoo, ntau pua xyoo tom qab, lawv rov los sib sau tau ua ke dua,
ces thiaj li los ciaj lub teb chaws "Peb Hmoov" (San Miao). Qhov uas
lawv hu lawv lub teb chaws ua 3 Hmoov no mas vim yog lawv 3 kwv tij
txoj hmoov es thiaj tau rov los ua ke dua. Tom qab no ces los lus
"Hmoov" thiaj li hloov los ua "Hmoob" lawm. Ces tsam no, peb thiaj
tsuas hais tias "Peb Hmoob" no lwm xwb. Zaj dabneeg no, tej zaum Lis
Txais yuav paub zoo. Vim nyob rau koom haum Haum Xeeb, Lis Txais lawv
teev ib tug mlom uas muaj 3 lub taub hau Hmoob, lawv hu nws ua "Vaj
Peb Hmoob".
PY zhen,
Kuv yeej pom muaj tus thuam Korean txog tej koj hais, tabsis, leej twg
los yeej tsis muaj pov thawj tim khawv kom tseeb. Thiab cov neeg thuam
ntawd tsis ntxim yog neeg paub tab, vim lawv siv cov lus tsis polite.
Yuav tsum tsis txhob mloog cov neeg tsis paub tab no hais, cia yus mam
zeem yus xwb mas thiaj tseeb. Yog yuav saib saum cev nqaij daim tawv
xwb ces, Korean thiab Mongols yeej muaj tso zoo li Hmoob ntau dua li
Suav Han. Kuv los yeej ntseeg hais tias ib txhia neeg Han yeej yog
Chiyou cov xeebleej xeebntxwv thiab. Qhov no los yeej muaj tseeb, vim
Hmoob txia mus ua suab coob heev suav tsis txheeb.
Lam saib cov duab no seb nej ho xav li cas.
http://www.usc.edu/libraries/archives/arc/libraries/eastasian/korea/r...http://www.usc.edu/libraries/archives/arc/libraries/eastasian/korea/r...http://www.usc.edu/libraries/archives/arc/libraries/eastasian/korea/r...
HL

[zhen]

Post by Lonewriter
It always amazed me how often a race or people, instead of creating
their own present power base, seek to create power from history,
legends, and prophecy. To me this is a sign of weakness not strength.

creating a present power base without learning from cyclical nature of
history is doomed to repeating its mistakes.

demarcating the temporal dimension into then, now and next without
knowing that all are one as the river flowing is a sign of ignorance.

on a more mundane level, do you think this rich and powerful nation
known as the USA derived its present power base without reference to
history? tell me, how old are these ideas and practices of democracy,
republic, and politics?

[Lonewriter]

Zhen,

if you're asking me to compare american history, european, roman and
greek empires, and western civilization to creating power versus the
history and relic of chi you to building a hmong power base, it's
quite sad because there's not much substance in the chi you material.
base on what i've seen, we're not even studying chi you's military and
political strategies (all of which have failed, but did have other
historic success), i am not even sure on the number of hmong leaders
who can speak chinese, we're basically (so far) finding ways to
express, "look we're a part of chi you, we're a part of chinese
heritage 5000 years ago" well i am not sure how this will build a
power base to affect public policy in america, and i am not sure if
the chinese adore the hmong in that same aspect and also i am not sure
how our linage to chi you will build hmong power in america.

it is my desire to not rely on historical relics and prophecy to build
political power. if people are looking for ways to build political
power with what we have today in the present world, then i am
interested, but folks are free to build political power anyway they
want.

Don't worry about justifying your position, i understand where you are
coming from and respect your opinion, i was once there. I am not a
divider, i am a uniter.

dai

Post by zhen

Post by Lonewriter
It always amazed me how often a race or people, instead of creating
their own present power base, seek to create power from history,
legends, and prophecy. To me this is a sign of weakness not strength.

creating a present power base without learning from cyclical nature of
history is doomed to repeating its mistakes.
demarcating the temporal dimension into then, now and next without
knowing that all are one as the river flowing is a sign of ignorance.
on a more mundane level, do you think this rich and powerful nation
known as the USA derived its present power base without reference to
history? tell me, how old are these ideas and practices of democracy,
republic, and politics?

[j***@gmail.com]

Hmong ib txwv xeeb txawm ntev heev los lawm. Hmong aka Yog thawj tug kav suav teb Hu ua HAN. Han Dynasty Kav suav teb thaum lub sib hawm 14 Kingdoms tua Han.

Thaum Han ua yog hmong tu huab tais Han Wu = Hang Vue tau mob tuag los ntawv kev mob kev nkeeg, Lub Sib hawm ntwv Song Dynasty Twb established lawm. Song Dynasty yog cov Xiong Nu Suav Dawb. Thawm Hang Vue tau tuag thiab cov tsoom fwv tau raug ntxias mus ua suav dawv xiong nu tag lawm, Cov tub rog han tau tso lub vaj looj forbidden city tseg. Tom qab Han tau poob moog lawm, Ming Thiaj li los Kav Suav teb Ib ntu tiam si thaum lub Sib hawm ming kav, Qing Twb Sawv lawm, Thawm Qin Sawv tab tom yog lub sib hawm thaum the Three Kingdoms sib ntau sib tuaj sis ntxeeb tsoom fwv. Lub sib hawm ntawv Hmoob rov sawv ua chu los kav.

Thawm chu tau puam tsuaj lawm vim yog txoj kev ntxeev siab, chu tus huab tais thiaj raug tua tuag lawm. Thawm chu tawg khiav, tshuav cov thawj rog kav xwv, lawv thiaj li los ua manchu los rebel Qin. Tom qab Manchu tau swb rog twb vim manchu tsis muaj huab tais tabsis tsuas muaj tsoom fwv kav xwb, tsis ruaj khov Huab tais Qin thiaj li yeej Manchu. thaum kawg Manchu thiaj li tawg los ua miao. Thaum miao sawv tua suav yog tom qab the three kingdoms, hmong pej xeem cov coj noj coj ua twb coj pab pawg khiav los nyob rau teb chaws nplog, miao nrog suav ua tsov ua rog tau 1500xyoo txiv yawg mam li sawv los kav. Ua ntej txiv yawg los kav Tsab txiv yawg yog pev hmoob tu huab tais ua ntej txiv yawg.

Txiv yawg = chi you
Tsaab = Zhang, Jiang, Tsa,
Lauj - Lau, Lo, Lou
Vwj = Vu, Wu
Ham = Huang, Hung, Ha
Xiong = Song, Sung
Lis = Li, Lee, Ly
Muas = Ma
Yaj = Ya, Yang
Hawj = Heu
Koos = Kong, Kwang
Thoj = Tao, To
Vaj - Wa, Wang
Khaab = Khuang
Tsheej = Cheung, Zheng

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by j***@gmail.com
Hmong ib txwv xeeb txawm ntev heev los lawm. Hmong aka Yog thawj tug kav suav teb Hu ua HAN. Han Dynasty Kav suav teb thaum lub sib hawm 14 Kingdoms tua Han.
Thaum Han ua yog hmong tu huab tais Han Wu = Hang Vue tau mob tuag los ntawv kev mob kev nkeeg, Lub Sib hawm ntwv Song Dynasty Twb established lawm. Song Dynasty yog cov Xiong Nu Suav Dawb. Thawm Hang Vue tau tuag thiab cov tsoom fwv tau raug ntxias mus ua suav dawv xiong nu tag lawm, Cov tub rog han tau tso lub vaj looj forbidden city tseg. Tom qab Han tau poob moog lawm, Ming Thiaj li los Kav Suav teb Ib ntu tiam si thaum lub Sib hawm ming kav, Qing Twb Sawv lawm, Thawm Qin Sawv tab tom yog lub sib hawm thaum the Three Kingdoms sib ntau sib tuaj sis ntxeeb tsoom fwv. Lub sib hawm ntawv Hmoob rov sawv ua chu los kav.
Thawm chu tau puam tsuaj lawm vim yog txoj kev ntxeev siab, chu tus huab tais thiaj raug tua tuag lawm. Thawm chu tawg khiav, tshuav cov thawj rog kav xwv, lawv thiaj li los ua manchu los rebel Qin. Tom qab Manchu tau swb rog twb vim manchu tsis muaj huab tais tabsis tsuas muaj tsoom fwv kav xwb, tsis ruaj khov Huab tais Qin thiaj li yeej Manchu. thaum kawg Manchu thiaj li tawg los ua miao. Thaum miao sawv tua suav yog tom qab the three kingdoms, hmong pej xeem cov coj noj coj ua twb coj pab pawg khiav los nyob rau teb chaws nplog, miao nrog suav ua tsov ua rog tau 1500xyoo txiv yawg mam li sawv los kav. Ua ntej txiv yawg los kav Tsab txiv yawg yog pev hmoob tu huab tais ua ntej txiv yawg.
Txiv yawg = chi you
Tsaab = Zhang, Jiang, Tsa,
Lauj - Lau, Lo, Lou
Vwj = Vu, Wu
Ham = Huang, Hung, Ha
Xiong = Song, Sung
Lis = Li, Lee, Ly
Muas = Ma
Yaj = Ya, Yang
Hawj = Heu
Koos = Kong, Kwang
Thoj = Tao, To
Vaj - Wa, Wang
Khaab = Khuang
Tsheej = Cheung, Zheng

[Tubtxib]

raus peb cov hmoob meskas mas "chiyou" always yog "txiv yawg". tiamsis, ku
tias raus Lajntxiag lawv cov hmoob Laos ma "chiyou" yuav tsum yog Khamtai.

ib tug neeg tsis yog hmoob ces yuav hais hauv ntiajteb no mus txog kia
saum ntuj los "chiyou" yeej tsis yog hmoob. Muab ob lub qhov muag tsum ko
dig tag los lub siab tseem tias "chiyou" tsis yog hmoob, vim thaum tuag lo
nws yeej tsis yog hmoob nev

-
Message posted using http://www.talkaboutculture.com/group/soc.culture.hmong
More information at http://www.talkaboutculture.com/faq.htm

[n***@yahoo.com]

raus peb cov hmoob meskas mas "chiyou" always yog "txiv yawg". tiamsis, kuv
tias raus Lajntxiag lawv cov hmoob Laos ma "chiyou" yuav tsum yog Khamtai.
ib tug neeg tsis yog hmoob ces yuav hais hauv ntiajteb no mus txog kiag
saum ntuj los "chiyou" yeej tsis yog hmoob. Muab ob lub qhov muag tsum kom
dig tag los lub siab tseem tias "chiyou" tsis yog hmoob, vim thaum tuag los
nws yeej tsis yog hmoob nev.
--
Message posted usinghttp://www.talkaboutculture.com/group/soc.culture.hmong/
More information athttp://www.talkaboutculture.com/faq.html

EHEHEH............KOJ SAU TAU RAUG SIAB KAWG LI.........THOV QHUAS KOJ
RAU KOV NO ......HEEHEHEH

YOG LOS TSIS YOG HMOOB TUAG LOS YEEJ TSIS YOG HMOOB.....THAT'S GOOD
***@ALL SCH....

[l***@gmail.com]

Txias txias ma tus hluas...peb tseem tham tswv yim xwb tsis tau hais
txog qhaab ko. Yog tshuav dabtsi es koj ho xav tau tob dua, paub meej
pem dua, pom zoo rau dua, ces txoj kev qib dav li dav, tso tshav
plhuav rau koj hais tuaj. Seem kev seem cai los mas... tos txais
nawj.

--Lajntxiag

raus peb cov hmoob meskas mas "chiyou" always yog "txiv yawg". tiamsis, kuv
tias raus Lajntxiag lawv cov hmoob Laos ma "chiyou" yuav tsum yog Khamtai.
ib tug neeg tsis yog hmoob ces yuav hais hauv ntiajteb no mus txog kiag
saum ntuj los "chiyou" yeej tsis yog hmoob. Muab ob lub qhov muag tsum kom
dig tag los lub siab tseem tias "chiyou" tsis yog hmoob, vim thaum tuag los
nws yeej tsis yog hmoob nev.
--
Message posted usinghttp://www.talkaboutculture.com/group/soc.culture.hmong/
More information athttp://www.talkaboutculture.com/faq.html